Tormach Surface Grinder - Grinding 4140 Perfectly Flat & Parallel & Grinding Fun with Dykem
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- Опубликовано: 1 мар 2014
- Hi folks! I'm back! My "excuse" for being MIA this past month is my newborn child! Anyways, I had a job come in which involved a lot of surface grinding which was a good excuse to really dig in and get to know this Tormach grinder. I've really boosted my confidence in using it and sort of fallen in love with grinding.
In this video, I wanted to "re introduce" the machine (which I'm in the BETA program for with Tormach) and show grinding a piece of 4140 flat and parallel. Also, for kicks, I add some dykem and then "pick it back up" without grinding any steel. 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH 
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Thank you for the informative video. I am work in a toolroom, and one thing I realized quickly after starting there was that our surface grinder (a newish Clausing Automatic) was actually better than our surface plate (a "tool room" grade B, which in this size, allows .0002" flatness error). Upgrading to a nice AA or A grade surface plate can really help if/when you end up "chasing tenths", and help you improve your technique more easily by providing amore accurate base to measure from. Happy Grinding!
Congratulations new Daddy! I can't wait to see the videos of Will wearing a NYCCNC shirt out in the shop with Dad learning all that he can! Congrats to your Wife as well. Glad to see you back.
John
Congrats on the new arrival and many thanks for another great video... well presented and great camera work as usual...
Congrats on the baby!!
I almost lost it in your intro when you mentioned about him doing work already ;-) lol!!
Awesome surface!
Nice video as always ;-)
Congratulations! Sounds like you have your new apprentice off to a good start. Great vid as always.
Congrats on your new shop BOSS! Looking good.
Congrats on the baby!
Another great video, thanks for posting :)
No matter how much I like grinding, the baby was the star of the show! Congrats!
John,
That surface grinder is mind blowing! Awesome stuff!
Grats on the new baby =)
That is fantastic! Congrats on the baby!
Adorable! Congrats on your baby!
Congrats! Looks like both you and your wife can do good builds!
Nice machine too.
-- Mike
Oh by the way, I want to thank you for sharing your idea to use that little jig to shorten screws, I'm going to do the same thing this week end.
Hi john.. Can I ask please the the dti holder on the machine did that come with the machine. I have the same machine but it's the manual version could I buy this from tormach or did you make it.
Good stuff John, and congratulations.
i love your honesty ........... we have all dune something like not turning on the magnet
Fantastic John. Thanks for sharing!
One time someone in the shop thought that a surface grinder would be good to use to make a friction brake system... Perfectly flat and friction?! Yeah good thing we caught that!
Those residual sparks on non-cutting passes could be thermal expansion of the work piece (and/or grinder). For fun, you could try cooling down the work, mid-grind, during a full contact pass to see if it contracts enough to break contact.
all of the sudden I need a surface grinder in my life... Congrats on the baby! I just acquired a new nephew yesterday!
I am working towards launching a product line of equipment for the film industry. working on a kickstarter page as we speak. I will be sure to send you a link when I launch!
Will, Congratulation on your new Dad! Hope Mom is doing well.
Been waiting to see when you were going to get started with the new toy.
In the past month my Wife and I became empty nest-ers. It is not as exciting as greeting a new family member; but it is great to see your family grow and mature. I have a new grandson on the way so i got to make some metal toys.
Well I'm impressed, and a little jealous too. Looks like one of those kind of tools you don't need until you have one then can't do without the darn thing. Sure you don't need things machined that close all the time, but it sure can't hurt anything and it makes the part look like you cared when you made it. Congratulations on a sweet machine.
Good luck with that, if you give folks a quality product like you can produce with the surface grinder I am sure they will come back for more. Hard to beat good quality.
You haven't lived until you've spent at least 4 hours manually surface grinding!
whew get an ache in my arm and shoulder just thinking about it :)
TRY 8 1/2 !
4 hours? I gave 7 years on gardner 1 1/2. Then got moved to an od/id. WWII machines were awesome. Take off .0001 or .1 it didn't matter. But titanium would stop a 14 inch wheel. Dead!
My Kent 6 x 18 surface grinder is a manual,with roller table, and not bad at all. Thousands of parts the last 20 years keeps my left arm in great shape.
+nyccnc John, how has using the surface grinder changed the way you plan your starting stock/post mill/lathe machined parts, prior to grinding? How much material do you plan to remove with the sg vs. relying on finish milling/turning surface finishes?
Really Nice piece of work. You have a really nice "Home" shop.
awesome stuff and congratulations!
Hi John....aka DAD
Congrats on the birth of your son! Enjoyed the video, I recently purchase an older Brown and Sharpe manual unit and have been teaching myself, so I certainly understand loving the finish/precision that can be attained.
Try a product called Cool Tool to increase surface finish.
Chuck
Nice Surface grinder. But I like your height gage support, that you showed at the end of this video. Can you tell us more details about it, or from where you got it.
Having a magnetic plate with very fine laminates is great especially for all the small things, which you would probably be machining anyway. I love your videos. I find it very hard standing there talking to myself making a video so well done to you. :-)
You might notice that ground surfaces don't tend to rust as much as tool machined surfaces. You're going to love it.
Congrats on the new born.
NYC CNC
Not really sure but I reckon it's because there isn't any roughness for the moisture to be trapped on the surface. I find if I rough polish a part in the lathe with wet and dry it hasn't got a tendency to rust as fast as rough machined surface has. We have a pretty dry climate where I live which is great for preserving stuff inside the shed from rust anyway.
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The fine pole Chuck is made for thin material. And does not hold as strong on thicker material.
you probably covered it in another vid, but did you get into balancing the grinding wheels?
Thanks! Much appreciated! :)
Where can I buy that indicator holder that you're using on the granite block?
Waiting to see more grinding and still waiting to see the saw. We just got a new machine, a Doosan DNM500 at work and another coming in some weeks, a Hyundai Kia 8 axis lathe.
Absolutely fantastic video John, loved it! And super congrats on being a DADDY! You're in for a whole new world of love and appreciation, enjoy every second you can.
I'd love to know what camera and lighting setup you have, it's so crisp! I saw the light fixture reflection somewhere so I think I get the idea. I might need to upgrade, I'd love to shoot better quality footage.
Great shot of the surface plate at the end there, that looked like less than 1 tenth of flatness, sweet! Even though you could see the stepover lines that proves that they're basically irrelevant. Watching this made me realize I need to buy a surface plate and DTI holder like that, source?
First off congrats in the little man!!
I look forward to your video's I love the surface grinder I've been wanting to get one for awhile to add to my shop. It's amazing how nice of a finish you can get with a good surface grinder..
Great job and can't wait for the next video!
Dennis
congrats on your lil helper :)
You're doing fine It's a learning process. Does the Tormach offer a coolant option or is it strictly dry grinding?
When I first started to watch I was looking at the 24.59 running time of the video and was thinking can I keep awake long enough to watch this video as surface grinding has away of putting me to sleep.But it was not to bad to watch after all, and it was good to see the Tormach surface grinder in action. I was thinking that this model of grinder was a manual feed.Is good to see a reasonably priced surface grinder that I do have to stand there winding handles on.
G'day John, I really enjoy your videos and especially your enthusiasm which makes them really pleasant to watch. I have no doubt you will go from strength to strength in what you're doing. I'm not a grinding expert by any means, but think you could improve the finish even more with more rapid movement of the work under the wheel. I don't know if it's possible with the stepper motors driving it however. Also you could probably get those last few little undulations out by letting the work fully equalise in temp before taking the final spark out passes. You can always tell when heat has been put in to the work by how it's cutting the ends of the piece. I share your frustration of a dry grinder and heat is our enemy. Keep up the great work.
Pete
NYC CNC Yes Don puts up some good information on grinding and he's clearly very experienced. Reading the spark pattern across the work can tell you a lot about how it was ground previously, and how it's grinding at that time. In my humble experience I think the main thing with a grinder not running coolant is just to be patient with the last pass/spark out, when you get to that stage go make a cuppa or do something else, let everything equalise in temp, and then do the final pass. In both videos your wheel sounds really nice, and a grinder like that should be able to give excellent results, as you've already found. Good luck for the future and enjoy parenthood!
Add a .001 to .002 shim between your part and the wheel with the wheel off. then touch off on the shim. it will give you an accurate distance between the part and the wheel then you can start grinding. I grind carbide within .00005 and it works every day for me.
Hey is there anyway to put a dial indicator on any surface grinder to know how tenths or thousandths you really taking??? Like how you tormach grinder is
Congratulations!! That's great news...
That was a killer grind job, indeed... Of course I meant the baby! I hope all is going well for you and the family. :)
One tip, I dont know anything about the tormach but if possible you would make much less heat if you can speed up the table traverse also wheel wax will help with heat and surface finish.also after dressing the wheel take a piece of shim stock and run the end of it flat back and forth across the bottom of the running wheel and it will dislodge the loose grit and really improve the finish, congrats on the baby!
How do you make sure the front and back are parallel?
I always use my bare hand to clean the mag chuck on a surface grinder, since I can feel it and confirm that it's properly cleaned. Any debris under the part ruins the paralellism of the machine.
I have bumped my knuckle on the wheel, it took a bit of skin off but other than that I was fine. Even so I still bring the chuck all the way out on the Y axis (and sometimes the X axis too) as an extra precaution.
For maximum holding it's best to try and cross as many of the brass lines as possible, they separate the poles of the magnets. It's also usually best to offset parts at about a 30 degree angle, especially for long narrow parts. it gives good holding power, and reduces heat buildup in the part.
Alex McClure They can, but it takes practice.
Was just wondering what you used the Crisco for? I seen it in the pic sitting on the surface grinder on your Facebook page? I have a my own little shop but nothing CNCed yet :)
Oh ok great idea! are you able to surface grind alum?Im sure it takes a certain wheel but just wondering?
That looks like a great unit for a small shop. I actually was recently looking at a manual surface grinder that was for sale locally. It's a Central Machinery brand, which was sold by Harbor Freight. Identical to Grizzly and Enco, as well as yours (other that the CNC addition on yours). I'm still waiting for a price from the seller.
Congratulations on the baby!!
Jack
NYC CNC I mentioned that your unit was the same as a Central Machinery or Grizzly, but I'm not correct on that. The castings and basic mechanism is the same, but the big difference is that your unit (and maybe the Enco) has precision ways, rather than the ground ways of the lesser units. I think the spindle bearings are upgraded on your unit also.
Jack
good stuff ,nice grinder. keep it up..
Nice Job, If you like your grinder now you will love it coolant.
There is nothing more satisfying than not seeing that needle move one tick on a .0001 indicator
i like to run it with coolant fluid, if its possible to run this grinder with coolant ??
Congrats man :)
What is the tool you are using in the beginning?
Nice demo John! I want one of those grinders...-__- What camera do you use?
F-ing awesome! As ususal sweet video. One question can you grind aluminum too? I bet you could make some bad ass fixture plates with that thing. Keep up the good work on the videos and congrats on the baby boy. My girl just turned 3 and boy is she a handful, yours will be 3 before you know it.
If you can use filters on your camera you should try out a CPL filter, it will remove a lot of glare from non metallic surfaces.
You mention Phil Kerner, The TOOL & DIE GUY from Erie Pa., as your mentor and guide. I ASSURE you he NEVER meant to IMPLY it was OK to run your hand under the wheel! Get yourself a nice soft brush and use that! Mine never leaves the grinder unless i drop it! I only HIT a 46 grit wheel once (1983) but NEVER again if i can help it! YES we old toolmakers do ramble but IF you listen closely we will teach also! LOL! Nice videos CONGRATS on the baby!
if you angle the part when doing open surfaces like that I find that it gives it a better finish or makes it easier to achieve
yes
Congrats to you and your wife! Nice baby!
Does the grinding wheel have any amount of erosion during a single run? Does the PSG compensate for that at all?
John NYCCNC Cool, thank you! I actually made the comment before I saw the test at the end. That was pretty incredible!
How much does that machine cost in the states....I want one
I am 9 months into my 4 year toolmaker apprenticeship training. If any experts dare to correct me please do as I am still in the learning phase. I have been taught that you can do some aggressive grinding by taking off .005 at a time. By doing this you need a 47 grit stone. Before you get to the prescribed dimension, about .010 remaining, redress and touch off again and remove .001 at a time. I can say this has worked for me using wet and dry grinders. On the same note If it is way too much to grind I have been told to mill or mill hardened steel using carbide end mills.
I have used both small and medium...small being 7 inch stone. Our medium ones are all wet grinders but not as precise as our small ones that you can remove as little as .0001 at a time. The small ones are rigid enough that they do remove .0001. But do watch your stock temperature. I will try and build my self a cold jet. They work really nice.
Not a cold jet but rather a cold gun...a Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube. I forbid myself to spend 250 bucks on a cold gun and build one myself and Amazon has some extruded aluminum stock that you can cheaply make one yourself. I am confident these darwaing will work ottobelden.blogspot.com/2010/12/another-home-made-ranque-hilsch-vortex.html
John, you need to put fences on your chuck.
I'm surprised it didn't come with some.
Not an expert here, in fact have not run one in 30 years.
Congratulations, cute baby! I see you have a drill doctor on the bench, does it work well for you? Mine gave a terrible finish to my drill bits, I ended up taking it back to sears. Nice video as always.
NYC CNC mmm, I've been told by a friend that his also works ok, one of these days I want to take my bits to his house and have him sharpen them to see how they come out, I believe the one I bought had an eccentric diamond wheel. You know, I was wondering why you put that split line down the middle, but no, I wasn't going to include it in my jig
that's a rather cool automatic grinder, can you set it op to take smaller cross steps and do a pass in both directions before advancing?
with a bit of practices it is possible to remove upwards of .060 using a manual machine, however you use the side of the wheel more than the bottom, you just have to keep an eye on how much heat you are poring into the part.
is there any reason not to grind your engine cylinder head and block rather than to mill it?
Just that its not really necessary. For a start you need a big grinder, bigger than the one in the video and its slower, takes more time and money. Cylinder heads come with gaskets designed to fill the space between head and block even if its not perfectly smooth. Also a lot of heads are aluminium these days which means you cant use the magnetic chuck. You could bolt it to an adapter plate but its a lot of extra work for nothing.
Congrats on the baby! Nice drilling man! :) Too soon?
A few notes on grinding procedure and conventions.
When ever placing rough parts on the magnet, draw file then place a peice of paper so as not to dent the soft magnet with remaining sharp corners. Only ground surface should be laid bare on the magnet.
Dress the wheel with the diamond slightly to the left of the bottom of the wheel.
Dress with a fast traverse for rough grinding, and a slow traverse to imitate a finer wheel.
When possible always touch off in the far right corner of the work, with just a bit of the wheel. This is to preserve the trailing edge of the wheel from unnecessary wear, and greatly reduces the chance of a wheel exploding if the wheel is dropped too quickly.
Always grind with one traverse direction, The also preserves the all important trailing edge.
Convention states that grinding is to be done form back to front for visibility, other then that it make no difference which way you go.
Re-dress when switching from rough to finish grinding. (i.e. 0.001 to 0.0001 per pass)
Finally the notion that one must re-dress when the wheel is stopped has no logical or practical base to it. It could be argued that if the motor is stopped and restarted that the bearings will seat in a slightly different position. That said, all the grinders at my college's machine shop have a lexan shroud around the machine with a timed lock, making it impossible to move tools when the wheel is running. With the guards in place we could only grind one surface before re-dressing. Add to that the shop rule that the diamond must be removed before grinding a piece. Even with those limitations necessitating the wheel be stopped repeatedly before redressing, we still make parts well within a tenths.
John NYCCNC
By all means, when in doubt, dress. The point I was getting to is the stopping the wheel does not obligate you to dress the wheel. And if the setup permits, then keep the wheel turning as long as possible.
do you use relief on your wheel to reduce heat?
John NYCCNC You can get a way better surface finish with ease. Another tip is a basic application of water with a paint paint brush. You can attain mirror like quality.
I noticed that when grinding the red material it did not appear to take it off evenly which may mean the block itself is not perfectly parallel.. Can you explain this or did you notice that a bit of red ink was left in the end .. Also would it help to turn the block 90degrees to improve the flatness ?
Yes but I am sure there would be an application that could use extra tolereance. I am trying to make some straight edges using 3 blocks of steel bar and grinding without machinery .. it is an interesting exercise. I am down to 5 /1ooo but hope to get down to under 1 /1000 .
Using 600 grit with sticky backing and alternating the blocks . I also found an aluminum extruded hollow bar surprisingly flat .. Less than 1/1000 .. I did not even need to grind it .. I am trying to create flat bar to grind my guitar frets but a flat straight bar is handy to have in workshop . add some fine grit paper and can do some neat things without machinery .. Might try a flat metal bench
The Steel block had warmed up and expanded during the previous grinding session and relaxed back again while the dychem was drying... You can get a real bow on the work piece if you let it heat up too much as the bottom stays cool from the magnetic chuck acting like a heat sink while the top side expands from the heat from the wheel :-)
Nice!
awesome!
I almost bought a similar grinder for home, but Im looking around for a second hand industrial grinder now. Yah, one time at work I was sharpening a die punch rigged in a verticle V block and I took a fraction too much off, the punch and V block went flying like a bullet and the wheel had a chunk missing. I pooped my pants.
I once had a quite large part.. I ground it to size, at least i thought i had.. I put it on the surface plate, measured it.. it was 0.01 mm to high.. until the air under the part escaped.. Conclusion: an air layer of 0.01mm under the part will get you...:)
The price is ? How much does it cost
Lovely
How do you surface grind of metals which are not magnetic?
Block them in or glued it to the mag
could also put them in a vice
@@monnettmj are there any examples out there of this?
So if you know wet lap that surface with 8000-10000 grit - will it get reflective like aluminium does? :D
i'm asking.. sorry, english is not my first or even second language.
Cool. =)
What length can this machine grind ?
I wonder if there is a way you can make a 24" flat bar from a machine that only has 12" span ..
cool tool
John
The product is a liquid...search cool tool II, cutting and tapping fluid
Chuck
MUST HAVE BEEN REALLY SCARY WHEN YOU FORGOT THE MAGNET!
How much was the Tormach?... :-)
19:12 I personally would have cleaned everything down with 99.9% isopropyl alcohol. If you're aiming for crazy micrometer precision, specs of dust are like the size of boulders and a fingerprint is like a lake :)
Sweeeet! THANKS!! Jim@MidOhio
Love the surface grinder action.
Another RUclips channel full of surface grinding wisdom is the "SuburbanTool Inc" channel. Immediate things I saw you could learn is stoning more, sliding the part, etc. 👍
that is a great site, if you already know which knob to turn to start grinding!!, that guy holding the camera is a real twit, what you want to see is the knobs and dials, not JUST the grinder/safety shields. the presenter also ASSUMES you are already familiar with this, not showing how he "chucks up" parts on the grinders, or where the on switch is?- this content is for NEWBIES not pros mate!! a better site is oxtoolco a great presenter.
Oh, just another MUST have kind of tool ;-))
BTW, nice little lump of well smelling meat in the beginning ;-))
man, im in canada.. but came from europe.. so althought im well familiar with inches and stuff.. im still more at home with metric system.
im just thinking if I ever had to do this stuff with english measurements.. i'd just loose my head.
Ivan P I agree I'm American and the metric system is easier and superior to imperial. Why we haven't gone completely metric is beyond me. What s worse is i have to have 2 sets of tools in my tool box because many things are manufactured (90%) outside the usa now. Metric was rare when i grew up. I think in the early 1980s there was a push to go metric, but politics and old guy sentimentalist won out. But what can you do. Humans esp old ones dont like fast change. : )
On the Jones and shipman grinders I have used ive ground off sharpie before lol
J&s 540 series are all hydraulic manual grinders. Lead screws for manual control. I'll upload a quick vid I have on my phone. A lot bigger too.
Video is on my channel
Oh he's. Also amazing is the fine movement you can do when side sweeping slots manually. Have you depressed lips on a wheel yet for doing slots?
It's such a good feeling afterwards. When you get that lovely cross hatched finish afterward just right. Lots of satisfaction there. Love the videos by the way keep it up.
what happens to this machine ?
nice
You know you are going to make a squareness gauge like Phil made...
I watch Thatlazzymachinist he has some tips on grinding, he says always wait for the grinding wheel to stop before removing the part or dressing tool and never put your hand near the grinding wheel. I agree with him it is very dangerous with that wheel spinning. not a big fan of the tool and die guy, sad about his son but tackie that he was asking for money for support.
I love me some grindr
❤❤❤❤❤
Congrats john. He is really cute
"How much to take off?" Don Bailey, president of Suburban Tool, removes .010 in one sideways pass with plenty of coolant.
Man that things slow compared to a full size but still awesome
Hey John, check out Stan at Bar Z. He has a series on The Grind, you will appreciate his series.
Hi James,
please can you tell me where can I find these series from Bar Z ? I searched for this but without succes.
Thank you for reply.
Peter
You can take passes anywhere from .001-.060. When you take a HUGE pass like .060 you feed the y-axis very slowly and just watch the sparks. With a decent set up you can easily take .005-.010 passes fine, But y-axis movement should be slow.
At my work i do this with a Harig 612. It's not a big grinder by any means just all depends on how you go about it.
i think you are giving huge load on lever dial indicator.