Dear Dave, I think that, coming to more or less the middle of Haydn's output in terms of symphonies, you have already plainly demonstrated that there's no practically one Haydn's symphony trivially similar to another of the same author. And the best of the crusade, in some way, has yet to come! What an impressive achievement, by Haydn and by you! Thanks once again! W Papà Haydn!
I can't believe that I haven't listened to this symphony in so long. A neglected musical gem...so much music to listen to, and so few hours in the day.
Dave, each video renews my pleasure. I do enjoy this brilliant analysis ! New horizons for each listener. I remember my disappointment when I heard this n°50 for the first time. After n°51, 45, 47, 60 (C major and slow introduction too) it seemed to me nothing happened here but I returned later to this work (but not daily) when I became fed up with passions and tensions. 12 years after the n°6 and n°7, only "youth symphonies" experimenting the slow introduction, the n°50 opens a new era up to the 104 ! And its introduction involves again dotted rhythms.
I realise I have two versions of that symphony at home (Pinnock and Dorati) but never listened carefully to it. So, many thanks, Dave, for that discovery !
When I listened to the symphony before watching the video, I vaugely thought the main body of the first movement was over almost before I knew it. I liked the slow movement...but then it ended and I was confused and half expected it to continue on further. And I thought the minuet was rather long. Thanks for explaining what Haydn was up to.
Dear Dave, I love this series, but then Haydn is my favourite composer and symphonies are my favourite form! Actually I enjoy JS Bach equally. I have a complete Bach Cantata series [on Brilliant Classics - very good], and I would say that at sixty-one I shall never know them all! This was a gift ... But I have one series to get - my last CDs. The integral Haydn Symphonies. I still do not know how to go about it. Necessarily this will not be inexpensive, and though vital, I cannot spend money I do not have! I do have a good many separate recordings of mainly later works, but need to fill in at least the first seventy! Very best wishes for you to have a happy life and many new dawns. George
Thanks, Dave, as always for this enlightening series. I love No. 50 and heard it just a few days ago as part of my ongoing exploration of the Märzendorfer cycle. I thought this would be a good occasion to weigh in on my reaction to this cycle, now that I have heard over 50 works from all phases of Haydn's career. Overall verdict: When Märzendorfer and his chamber orchestra are good they are very, very good; when they are bad, well, they're not so good. But the good ones, so far, outnumber the bad. Chief liabilities: (i) source material for transfers are from LP's many of which have seen better days (too bad the master tapes have vanished). Surface noise in many; temporal distortion in others (sadly, in 88, 93 & 94, which otherwise are fine performances); (ii) wheezy and sometimes ill-tuned oboes that often cloud the texture in tuttis; (iii) some readings sound under-rehearsed--not surprising for such an ambitious project; (iv) slow movements can drag. Strengths: (i) fast movements are frequently intense, exciting, earthy--the players really dig in (nothing prissy here); (ii) where Haydn scores for timpani, Märzendorfer makes sure we really hear them, especially when hard sticks are used in some of the earlier symphonies; (iii)string playing is generally excellent, some slips of ensemble notwithstanding--phrasing beautifully shaped, playing strong and articulate; (iv) wind and string solos (including high alto horns) very fine--even the first oboist is pretty good; (v) all of the performances heard thus far, even the "bad" ones, reflect consistent joy in music-making and a deep appreciation for the robust, earthy side of Haydn. Given the liabilities, this set could never be a primary recommendation. In the absence of the regrettably OUP Dorati, I would probably recommend the Naxos series, despite some unevenness in the conducting.
Love this music and performance. there are some very original harmonies and chord progressions. It may be in the classical style, but it is still plainly written by a unique genius.
Many thanks for another outstanding talk, about a symphony that I first heard consciously for the first time in around 1959 (as a 12-year-old) as part of a BBC broadcast that also included No. 104. Your comments about the minuet and the especially impressive finale were particularly illuminating. Would it be gratuitous to mention that No. 49 ("La Passione") and No. 50 are excellent examples of the "non-chronological" nature of at least parts of the Haydn symphony catalogue? The dates of these two works are shown on the extant autograph manuscripts - 1768 and 1773, respectively; during the intervening 5 years, Haydn wrote a large number of substantial works, including a sizable number of symphonies (some of them also precisely datable), the Opus 17 and 20 (and probably Opus 9) string quartets, and the opera "Le Pescatrici".
I also think number 50 is about emerging from the solemnity of the Church Sonata style, and, ending in high spirits. I really think this symphony is Haydn's clearest subversive philosophical statement. There is no sense of solution of problems, but, a gradual shedding of 'atmosphere.' The ending is such outrageous fun you only realise he began in such solemn mood when you recall the opening. By the way, I don't see that first movement as light. I think the syncopation is far more significant than the sprightliness of the attempted tune. I think Haydn is being serious right until the finale. I think the minuet deliberately unsettles - more deliberately than usual - listener expectations, so they don't try to make sense of what has happened, but get carried by questions inexorably into that finale-whirlpool. With that finale, Haydn is saying, 'Only good cheer makes sense!'
All very reasonable, except that No. 49 preceded No. 50 by at least half a decade, according to the latest scholarship, with some dozen or so works in between.
@@DavesClassicalGuide an interesting clarification. I admit an over-egged pudding, and, a fudged first point. On the other hand (thank you for replying, by the way!) did he not number them according to performance, so, perhaps he scheduled this straight after that to make that point?
Thanks Dave! After trying to find versions of Hayden Symphony #50 "the Crusade", I realized that there was no such symphony called this. But due to your reviews, I now own copies (in many case, multiple versions) of every Haydn Symphony numbers 1- 104. Recordings are by Harnoncourt. Bernstein (both New York and Vienna), Dorati (Philharmonica Hungarica) , Concertgebouw/Davis, and Marriner/St. Martins. The only Haydn I owned before were two poor sounding discs by Beecham/Royal Philharmonic back from 35 years ago. I must have purchased over 300 discs and sets in the past year due to your reviews --Haydn being a good portion of them. I think it is now time to stop.
Unlike the way the symphony is structured as Dave explains using the Bela Drahos example (that the minuet and finale are longer than the first movement in contrast to the standard form of these classics symphonies), both the Trevor Pinnock and Antal Dorati versions have the finale shorter - less than 4 minutes - than the first movement! No repeats?!
Or much faster tempos. Pinnock's first movement is relatively leisurely, but it's actually not quite what you think, because I discount the first movement introduction--I am talking specifically about the main body of the movement, the allegro only, so the point still applies.
I think the minuet was out of fashion as a dance by the middle of the 18th century. Was said to have been invented by Lully about 100 years previously (correct me if I am wrong!). It was more of a tradition than anything by Haydn's time.
Dear Dave, I think that, coming to more or less the middle of Haydn's output in terms of symphonies, you have already plainly demonstrated that there's no practically one Haydn's symphony trivially similar to another of the same author. And the best of the crusade, in some way, has yet to come! What an impressive achievement, by Haydn and by you! Thanks once again! W Papà Haydn!
I can't believe that I haven't listened to this symphony in so long.
A neglected musical gem...so much music to listen to, and so few hours in the day.
Dave, each video renews my pleasure. I do enjoy this brilliant analysis ! New horizons for each listener.
I remember my disappointment when I heard this n°50 for the first time. After n°51, 45, 47, 60 (C major and slow introduction too) it seemed to me nothing happened here but I returned later to this work (but not daily) when I became fed up with passions and tensions.
12 years after the n°6 and n°7, only "youth symphonies" experimenting the slow introduction, the n°50 opens a new era up to the 104 ! And its introduction involves again dotted rhythms.
Never really listened to 50 before wow as usual you opened it up for me.............long live the crusade!!!
Thanks David, a great, unusual, theatrical work.. so much fun!!
I realise I have two versions of that symphony at home (Pinnock and Dorati) but never listened carefully to it. So, many thanks, Dave, for that discovery !
Yay! Haydn Crusade FOREVER!
I just hope it can continue to happen, what with all the copyright-strife that goes on. Stay strong!
Yeah, got another claim for this one, but only for the first movement introduction. It's just insane.
When I listened to the symphony before watching the video, I vaugely thought the main body of the first movement was over almost before I knew it. I liked the slow movement...but then it ended and I was confused and half expected it to continue on further. And I thought the minuet was rather long.
Thanks for explaining what Haydn was up to.
Dear Dave,
I love this series, but then Haydn is my favourite composer and symphonies are my favourite form! Actually I enjoy JS Bach equally.
I have a complete Bach Cantata series [on Brilliant Classics - very good], and I would say that at sixty-one I shall never know them all! This was a gift ...
But I have one series to get - my last CDs. The integral Haydn Symphonies.
I still do not know how to go about it. Necessarily this will not be inexpensive, and though vital, I cannot spend money I do not have!
I do have a good many separate recordings of mainly later works, but need to fill in at least the first seventy!
Very best wishes for you to have a happy life and many new dawns. George
Another episode of the Symphony Crusade! Yeah! And by the way, that's the weirdest Haydn menuet I've ever heard.
Thanks, Dave, as always for this enlightening series. I love No. 50 and heard it just a few days ago as part of my ongoing exploration of the Märzendorfer cycle. I thought this would be a good occasion to weigh in on my reaction to this cycle, now that I have heard over 50 works from all phases of Haydn's career. Overall verdict: When Märzendorfer and his chamber orchestra are good they are very, very good; when they are bad, well, they're not so good. But the good ones, so far, outnumber the bad. Chief liabilities: (i) source material for transfers are from LP's many of which have seen better days (too bad the master tapes have vanished). Surface noise in many; temporal distortion in others (sadly, in 88, 93 & 94, which otherwise are fine performances); (ii) wheezy and sometimes ill-tuned oboes that often cloud the texture in tuttis; (iii) some readings sound under-rehearsed--not surprising for such an ambitious project; (iv) slow movements can drag. Strengths: (i) fast movements are frequently intense, exciting, earthy--the players really dig in (nothing prissy here); (ii) where Haydn scores for timpani, Märzendorfer makes sure we really hear them, especially when hard sticks are used in some of the earlier symphonies; (iii)string playing is generally excellent, some slips of ensemble notwithstanding--phrasing beautifully shaped, playing strong and articulate; (iv) wind and string solos (including high alto horns) very fine--even the first oboist is pretty good; (v) all of the performances heard thus far, even the "bad" ones, reflect consistent joy in music-making and a deep appreciation for the robust, earthy side of Haydn. Given the liabilities, this set could never be a primary recommendation. In the absence of the regrettably OUP Dorati, I would probably recommend the Naxos series, despite some unevenness in the conducting.
Love this music and performance. there are some very original harmonies and chord progressions. It may be in the classical style, but it is still plainly written by a unique genius.
Many thanks for another outstanding talk, about a symphony that I first heard consciously for the first time in around 1959 (as a 12-year-old) as part of a BBC broadcast that also included No. 104. Your comments about the minuet and the especially impressive finale were particularly illuminating. Would it be gratuitous to mention that No. 49 ("La Passione") and No. 50 are excellent examples of the "non-chronological" nature of at least parts of the Haydn symphony catalogue? The dates of these two works are shown on the extant autograph manuscripts - 1768 and 1773, respectively; during the intervening 5 years, Haydn wrote a large number of substantial works, including a sizable number of symphonies (some of them also precisely datable), the Opus 17 and 20 (and probably Opus 9) string quartets, and the opera "Le Pescatrici".
I wrote this before seeing your comment about the half-decade between No. 49 and No. 50. Thank you for (also) mentioning this point of chronology.
Congratulations!!!
I also think number 50 is about emerging from the solemnity of the Church Sonata style, and, ending in high spirits. I really think this symphony is Haydn's clearest subversive philosophical statement. There is no sense of solution of problems, but, a gradual shedding of 'atmosphere.' The ending is such outrageous fun you only realise he began in such solemn mood when you recall the opening.
By the way, I don't see that first movement as light. I think the syncopation is far more significant than the sprightliness of the attempted tune. I think Haydn is being serious right until the finale. I think the minuet deliberately unsettles - more deliberately than usual - listener expectations, so they don't try to make sense of what has happened, but get carried by questions inexorably into that finale-whirlpool. With that finale, Haydn is saying, 'Only good cheer makes sense!'
All very reasonable, except that No. 49 preceded No. 50 by at least half a decade, according to the latest scholarship, with some dozen or so works in between.
@@DavesClassicalGuide an interesting clarification. I admit an over-egged pudding, and, a fudged first point. On the other hand (thank you for replying, by the way!) did he not number them according to performance, so, perhaps he scheduled this straight after that to make that point?
@@matthewrippingsby5384 Anything is possible!
Thanks Dave! After trying to find versions of Hayden Symphony #50 "the Crusade", I realized that there was no such symphony called this. But due to your reviews, I now own copies (in many case, multiple versions) of every Haydn Symphony numbers 1- 104. Recordings are by Harnoncourt. Bernstein (both New York and Vienna), Dorati (Philharmonica Hungarica) , Concertgebouw/Davis, and Marriner/St. Martins. The only Haydn I owned before were two poor sounding discs by Beecham/Royal Philharmonic back from 35 years ago. I must have purchased over 300 discs and sets in the past year due to your reviews --Haydn being a good portion of them. I think it is now time to stop.
I agree. Take a break and listen to what you have!
A great guide for an unexperienced listener like me ! Cant wait for 52
Unlike the way the symphony is structured as Dave explains using the Bela Drahos example (that the minuet and finale are longer than the first movement in contrast to the standard form of these classics symphonies), both the Trevor Pinnock and Antal Dorati versions have the finale shorter - less than 4 minutes - than the first movement! No repeats?!
Or much faster tempos. Pinnock's first movement is relatively leisurely, but it's actually not quite what you think, because I discount the first movement introduction--I am talking specifically about the main body of the movement, the allegro only, so the point still applies.
@@DavesClassicalGuide True. I agree. Compared to that duration the respective finale does get longer! Thanks. Keep up your good work.
were the seemingly mandatory menuet movements an idea to just get up to dance and pirouette the ladies around?
No.
I think the minuet was out of fashion as a dance by the middle of the 18th century. Was said to have been invented by Lully about 100 years previously (correct me if I am wrong!). It was more of a tradition than anything by Haydn's time.
@@porridgeandprunes You're wrong.
Does the 1st movement exposition move in 5-bar chunks?
1st movement sure sounds like an Overture to me.