KO Motor Vs Stock SurRon Motor PART II | In Depth Data Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- Hey everyone, today's video is a follow up on our part 1 of testing the stock motor vs the KO motor. After we were quickly rained out during testing, we decided to do new tests from the ground up with new data collection and analysis. Enjoy!
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Ahh, another great video that's more than likely gonna be historic, given how young this E-Moto space is. I mean, we literally hang on to you guys' every word. Love y'all man. Should definitely do a ride out. People would come from all over the world I'm sure, given how small our community is.
Dude, I am a machinist and work with a bunch of engineers. I have to applaud you on your diplomacy and absolute analytics. Terrific video!
I like KO, in the end it will last longer. Being relatively new to this, for me it is what is the fun factor. I am 50, I don’t care about the specifics I just want to go fast. So all you out there with same skills and interest be good to each other. Love your channel.
After riding my 60v Modified surron for years and then riding a 60v KO SurRon this is like the exact same differences I felt. KO's look cool but doesn't seem worth it imo
Excellent video, as always. No one else provides this type of data. You guys are completely transparent in everything you do, and are absolute gentleman, who genuinely care about the community and are passionate about what you do. Really appreciate you. Thank you.
A lot of good discussion happening in the comments! I wan't to once again reiterate that this video isn't supposed to be some gotcha moment. Both motors performed as we expected them to and we want to set clear expectations for performance you can see using the controller we used during testing. That's not to say that other controllers won't perform better. ASI lack MTPA functionality that other controller companies offer and can increase the performance of IPM motors by optimizing the angle that current is applied to the magnets - it's a bit of an advanced topic and we didn't want to overwhelm the viewers by including a tangent about it's efficacy when there is limited numerical data on the true differences. It's not entirely clear if KO controllers offer this functionality, but there are a couple on the market that do and we look forward to testing those as well!
The owner of KO also wanted it to be clear that KO themselves did not specifically send an employee to make the comments that were left on the last video - that decision was made by the person themselves. The owner says they do not want to sensor what people say and though he doesn't agree with the comments made, he wouldn't request someone (employee or otherwise) not to comment their opinions. We agree that people can comment whatever they'd like and of course, doing so publicaly means that they intended for people to see it, so there are no problems with comments being featured in videos.
Hard to get info like yours anywhere without doing it yourself. Thank you
Great video guys 🤘 love your videos and all you guys do for the e-bike community! Keep up the good context. We’re ready for the KO controller with KO motor vs the bac 8000 with stock motor
The $270 QS165 motor is a no brainer for me. It can do 95%+ of what the KO motor can do at a 1/4 of the price. The fancy colors "trix is for kids" advertising of KO is definitely gonna create some fanboys. For the price of the KO it should blow away the competition, but in most videos it just barely barely barely beats stock or the much cheaper QS165.
Have you ran the V2 yet? We tested the V1 on the channel and were a bit underwhelmed. It was of course an incredible motor for $270, but wasn’t at the same level as stock.
@@emotobros Seen a few teardown videos of the V2, and it has beefier windings, much better bearings more copper and iron overall. I have a 15kw bomber but my neighbor has a V1 he bought after buying the Suron used and already broken (burnt motor, bent wheel, bent handlebars etc etc. He is using a Sabvoton controller with 450 phase amps and it moves. I never rode a stock Suron so I cant speak for a comparison. The KO motor and controller combo is more than what he paid for the bike.
i have v2, QS suck at understanding people needs (and people need speed) and they keep making low speed motors, also i got faulty motor with wire short to casing, luckly it was easy to fix. i am planning to swap it to triangle to make a 'speed' version of the motor
Outstanding. As I have noticed the ko looks awesome but just doesn't out preform the stock. Also you guys have a very good understanding of how this all works, better then most , age is not a factor. Great job guys keep it up. Sad KO went all Karen on your comments. That in it's self will keep me from buying from them.
Your test basically just confirms (albeit admittedly crudely) that kv is proportional to torque. You wouldn't expect much difference given your running the same phase amps, the toque (thus acceleration) of each motor should be roughly equal, as their kv's are roughly equal. KO being a tad slower could be many things, different kv, tyre pressure, tuning of controller etc etc.
Some simple tests it'd be great if you can do (and only require basic equipment, looks like you already have):
-phase to phase resistance (just use a lab power supply and measure Vdrop across the wires)
-torque per amp (lab power supply again, but measure max torque before it 'cogs over')
-no load RPM and no load power (ie belt removed)
these 3 parameters can give a good 1st order comparison and view of what each motor can do, and isolate the motor from any potential issues with the above mentioned differences like tunning (the KO being a IPM motor does mean it can be hampered more than the stock by a 'bad'/less than ideal setup, which can be hard to pick on 'seat of the pants' testing).
Weird KO has such a consistently bad response to anything suggesting they're not gods gift... and across multiple 'representatives'. I know had I done similar representing companies I'd worked for, that'd be grounds for a serious talking to, or just outright fired.
Exactly what we were aiming to prove. Of course it seemed obvious but there was a lot of conjecture about gearing and one making more torque so you can gear down, etc. at the end of the day we wanted to prove that two similar motors with similar KV ratings are going to perform almost identically from a torque output standpoint. Easy enough to say for people like you or I who understand but sometimes a video helps illustrate the point.
we’d definitely love to do the tests you’ve mentioned, have you or others done them?
@@emotobros I'd be happy to myself, but for being unwilling to invest that kind of $$ in to a company that clearly has some issues in the ways it runs its business, and has some obvious design flaws that it claims are benefits (cutting holes in conductors being a pretty obvious one).
Some reports suggest the motor is actually decent, but until I can see some hard #s I'm not as willing to risk it. The QS motor, known to be little better, or even worse than stock depending on who you ask... was measured with ~13mohms phase to phase resistance, the KO by comparison, 10mohms. That to me does not support the claim of nearly 10x the power handling. that said on the KO measurement, I'm not as confident on the # as it was done using a controller by a guy who didn't really know what it meant... so I reserve judgement till Ive either tested myself or seen it tested by someone who is a bit more experienced... but underlying point is... not gonna risk it for something that to date has not proven itself, with some evidence to the contrary.
happy to show you some reliable ways of doing those measurements though, if you guys are willing (assuming you don't know already)?
@@sn0wchyld Yeah we are somewhat in the same boat. That's a lot of investment (time and money) to be releasing information that the manufacturer should just be releasing on their own. We'd be able to do the measurements no problem if we had the right equipment.
The one thing we couldn't test that we wanted to was how much better the KO motor performs with MTPA vs. without it. I'm not sure the stock motor would benefit any considering it's SPM rather than IPM but allegedly there are gains to be had from that on the KO side. Not something that ASI currently implements but VESC offers it. Can't find any statements from KO on whether or not their control scheme uses it. Nor can I find any real world data comparing the torque efficiency gains with or without it. It all seems to be theoretical or implementation based rather than exact motors compared on a dyno with MTPA on and off.
@@emotobros its very much gut feel at this point, but im pretty sure KO's controller isn't really able to truly implement MTPA (for similar reasons as to why it needs so much 'tuning' to get the throttle response right - its not a true FOC controller, it uses lookup tables or similar) - again, gut feel, from what ive seen, but idk anyone else who's FOC controller needs this much after sales support, person to person, to get it running right. The amps - per rpm window tuning too suggests its not a real torque based throttle too, but more a 'simulated' or 'indirect' one, at best... The sticky throttle also suggests some long control loops that cant respond quickly enough to throttle being let off... a true FOC/MTPA controller should be able to kill off its 'torque' amps more or less instantly as the math transforms handle all the 'hard stuff' (though it is a bit weird/less simple with IPM motors deep in the field weakening zone, but thats not what we're talking about here).
your right though that the MTPA of the stock motor is likely more or less in line with the Q torque (ipm motors tend to benefit more from the D and Q torque... spm just Q, but its not a 100% / always the case rule)
if you want to measure mtpa for the KO motor :
-run a known DC current (ie using a lab power supply) through any pair of motor phase wires. measure the amount of torque to get it to 'cog over' (you can do this by putting a bucket + rope around the axle/belt sprocket... add water to the bucket till it starts spinning (ie cogs over) - measure weight of bucket+water, devide by radius of the belt sprocket, divide again by the amps running through the motor phase... that equals MTPA). you can then compare it to the 'magnet torque' - which is directly proportional to the kv... if notably different then its got some potential gains from the reluctance torque (vs just using magnet torque). Best doing that test on a couple of current levels (from the power supply) and a couple of different phase-phase combos to check for any abnormalities too.
Basically, all you need is a lab power supply, some string, a bucket, and some water, to work out the mtpa of a motor. Some things in life are still simple :P
@@emotobros just as an asside - i'd really appreciate it if you can confirm the MTPA and phase-phase resistance, given they're measurable with basic tools (basically a lab power supply, a multimeter, and a bucket ) - would clear up a lot of things pretty quickly :D given you guys already invested in the motor and a lab power supply (if you dont already have one) can be had for
The Truth Hurts Sometimes
Placebo effect? 😂
As I’ve said from the beginning I love the fact that a company went out of the way to many something specifically for the surron/talaria the only benefit of the ko motor over stock is to be able to handle more power/amps for longer times did a drag race with my buddy 20kw my motor tapped at like 150c after 45 seconds his was going strong (TEMP WISE) but I held the acceleration until we got to the higher rpm’s where my motor was maxed ko kept going is a nice upgrade if you plan on running stupid crazy power and it just want ease of mind for not over heating
Great video . Good to see you guys going to a dragy gps vs phone or any other app . I have a dragy for drag racing cars and can tell you it’s very close to track timers at drag strip . Have very similar dragy numbers for my 72 volt stock motor SurRon . 1/8 mile in high 9’s low 10 second range at 65 mph and 0 to 60 mph high 7 to low 8 second range . You can only accelerate so fast on a SurRon . When I turn my bike up past 15 kw I go slower . Keeping the front tire down is key
Glad to hear some others opinions on the dragy. Was really impressed with how quickly it updated times and accuracy of said times.
We really want to test these at 20kW+ but it’s so hard to get repeatable data when it comes down to who can keep the front down best. We data logged a couple runs at 24kW true input and 800 phase amps to the motor. Was just completely unwieldy 🤘🏽
Yes the dragy is the way to go for data even has video overlay . On higher power settings could do a roll race set it up at a certain start/end mph . Also could compare G forces . The KO would have advantage here assuming
@@emotobros Yall just need to put a hillcimb swinger and drag slick on the back to test the upper limits of the motors haha
@@mrskywalker115 for real 😅 we did a shake down at 30kW and 800 phase and smelled burning on stock motor, lol.
@@emotobros surprised it didnt turn into a grenade at that much power lol
Thanks for the data collection, looking forward to the heat comparison tests
I have nearly same time results on a dirt track between stock and Ko. My buddy runs the QS motor and absolulty rips everything trails. On the trail the time difference between the three comes down to rider for sure. 🎉
Great test and good data analysis. I understand the reasoning for choosing the lower phase amps and at then end you clearly state the test doesnt cover everything and the benefits of the ko physical differences, hopefully that will keep out the negative comments. I think you hit the nail on the head as the KO design will allow better heat management with more phase amps at a level that the stock would fry magnets and also allow more rpm but that is a very special application that not many use the surron for in the real world. If the KO was used in that application(more phase and rpm) then you would really see the difference(progressive e showed that by frying their stock motor running crazy power yet KO held together). My personal build is very similar so this confirms I kept the right setup with stock motor as I never have heat issues and never run over 500phase amps.
I cant believe how critical some people are when good data is presented and when its clearly stated it was inconclusive they still take it as an attack on the brand. Keep up the good work, yall are the most data driven out there which is needed more
KO really needs to hire a PR and HR team. 100 employees but my lord do they just love being immature and shitting on their own name. If they sat at the kids table they’d get bullied.
We’ve had really great experiences with multiple employees there who were beyond friendly! Was disappointed by that interaction on the last video…
@@emotobros I acknowledge that it’s not all their employees, but this is one of many incidents where someone has gone rogue(I assume) and made statements publicly that have caught attention for how unprofessional and rude they’ve been. Me saying they need PR/HR isn’t meant to be an insult. I just don’t want to see a promising company discredited by a few loud idiots. I have high hopes for KO, this is the first generations of their products and I can’t wait to see what they do in the future!
Just based on their comments I would never buy from them, very unprofessional.
@@bc4901 the problem is the clowns are in ownership (christopher) and support leadership(ben) positions. the saying the fish rots at the head couldn't be more true
They do have a way of bringing out the sensitive little boys on surrons that's for sure 😆
Wonderful video. Also, question. What the hell is that round headlight. Where the hell can I get that? I need it now. !!!! Thank you guys. Good work as always.
Yall are doing god's work in the surron community, thanks for such detailed info -
Thank you very much for providing this detail. I have a bac8000 on my surron. Back in the day I was told that your controller was fixed to the voltage you bought it😮. So I bought the 60v controller and 60v ebmx big battery so I could still use the original battery at the same time. OMG stupid fun.. but everyone says the 72v is better. Your report shows that in single track the 60v as expected is quicker (peace of mind.. thank you again).
I think the real take away on the voltage differences is that if you are staying below 5500RPM or so you aren’t going to see much of a difference if at all in acceleration. The times are too tight to be conclusive one way or another but I think it’s safe to say the 72V isn’t for sure faster down low!
@@emotobros my only question that has me thinking about going 72v is if the 20% reduction in amps would improve a noticeable change in efficiency as range is my biggest killer, 22-25mi is about all I can get out of 3.6kwh battery at 6-8kw(my cells may be the culprit from what Ive recently seen in cell study data). 72v with better cells at same capacity could be my solution, just hard to pony up the money to build another battery haha
Great video guys!
Hi, in your test, which controller did you use for stock motor and KO motor? your test is very interesting ;-)
BAC8000 both times.
Great video y'all!!!
My thinking regarding K.O. motors potential advantages is just one important ( to me ) metric. Overheating/max power threshold. Do you or someone else have that kind of data?
also very interested in this kind of testing as i'm planning on supermoto racing my bike this year. Has anyone even attempted this?
@Tyler Reed what little I have seen has been positive. Progressive -e did some side by side runs between a KO motor, and a stocker , claiming 20kw power respectively, and blew up the stock motor . Ko was not even hot. Charged cycle works had some racer guy supposedly trying to run a ko moto motor hard up some desert plateaus, in an effort to test for overheating, again.. for the hopes of racing. So far , so good.
@@tonysurber9111 good stuff thx, i'll look them up.
I think the benefit of the KO motor is that it can handle significantly more power. On their site they claim 35 kw peak. I’ve heard different numbers for the stock surron motors but most people seem to agree it can’t go over 20 kw.
Been riding @ 11 Kw , 60 V , Torp TC500 , Stock Motor gets very hot after some time. Cant imagine 15 Kw or more on stock
Would love this same test on the sotion motor
Nice video thank you guys. KO has stated they intend to sell a complete bike and I think that's really what this motor is about.
This behavior seems to be standard for KO on youtube or facebook groups. I was going to buy the nano KO controller, but I think ill pass now.
69/10 as always, keep on spreading the good word, kings
Thanks for always being here 🫡❤️
Is UU motors any good?
Little do they know almost every E bike owner rides on the road Just ignore the haters. Good video.
Great video as expected from EMB! When I switched to the RS motor for the first time I was very disappointed in its low end acceleration untill I really started turning up the p/a 700+ then it’s starts to move like it should, but it seems kind of excessive? This was on 72v. My disappointment at 60v was even further but I did have a few things in play when switching to the KO motor, like swapping from stock rear 19 too a 16 x1.85 with a 90/100. I also put the ebmx X-9000 and rs motor all at once before riding my bike. I’m looking forward to swapping back to the stock motor for low power comparisons up to 12-15kw undecided yet! Any power levels beyond that it’s clear KO is the winner with longevity for a start!
Awesome video can’t wait for the another one
We’ve pushed 800PA on the KO and it was insane! Stock motor verifiably smells hot when I try the same thing. Has that kind of hot motor smell that reminds me of overheating RC cars back when I use to run them. I was trying to speculate on the low end difference and was thinking maybe the inertia of the heavier rotor but that seems so insignificant in comparison to the rotating mass of the whole drive assembly.
hi is the ko motor as smooth then the stock motor in terms of power delivery? I need a new motor and i am thinking to buy a ko motor but only if the throttle feel is as good then with the stock motor. What would you do buying a new stock motor or a ko motor. it need smooth power delivery for wheely's and better cooling for when i join some pitbike races
The only thing that really determines the smoothness is the controller so I’d say if you have the same controller on both motors, they’re going to feel the same. I’m sure the KO uses nicer bearings and has tighter tolerances, so in that sense it should stay smooth longer.
Thank you for this amazing info!
def in depth! goos job 🫡
💯
Well done.. essentially keep the motor… and save $$$. Would be great to test controllers also :)
I think the reason to upgrade to KO is so you can run more amperage without burning out the motor. Theres more to upgrades than just acceleration.
Yes, that’s exactly what we stated in the video. The purpose of the test was to determine if the motor torque coefficient was similar to stock, rather than the outright amount of power it could handle.
Great video!
Good information. Keep supporting the community… please.
Nice video!
Can you verify that the BAC8000 configuration was optimized for the KO motor in this scenario for best possible performance, as opposed to using a KO motor controller? I know that it makes sense to use the same BAC controller with both motors, but there is clearly way more data and use history with the stock motor than a KO motor. Unless you guys have extensively tested and paired it with every possible little config tweak for peak performance, I wonder if this leaves room for error.
Sorry, let me clarify, are you sure that you've done everything that you can to equally apply phase current to the KO motor, as you've done with the stock motor? The dip at 300Arms for the KO motor is interesting, whereas the stock motor appears to be more of a linear increase
Hard to say for sure what you mean by optimized, but we tried to make it as simple as possible. Same voltage in, same current in. Sure it’s not optimized in the sense that it performs best at these settings, it was just meant to be a baseline for comparison.
Regarding the dip in current, you have to consider that the vertical lines on the plot are seconds that have passed so any dip or rise, one vs. the other is for at most 1/8th of a second. Our goal was to average the input - it’s borderline impossible to make them identical considering they’re fundamentally different motors. I think we did the best that we could and if that little blip down in current for that one split second is what caused the difference, then I suppose that’s part of the process! Hopefully at some point we will have the resources necessary to where nothing is left open to subjectivity.
As we suggested at the end, we hope other people film similar tests and post their results. Our one test on one day is definitely not the end all be all.
we found the KO employee boys
@@BboyRawth1 too many people will just take someone's word for something and run with it
@@trowantechworks its a joke bc youre obviously on the side of KO. too many people take things too seriously
Why I sold my motor in a week of getting it. I felt no huge difference other then running at higher rpms and heat. If I can keep my hand off the throttle and be smart about my riding and tune, its not for me.
I seen it on Fb 😂
also SuRonster had issues with the KO begin slower than stock.
Yeah we did see that. Hard to say if it’s truly slower since the data all seems to be within a margin of error and as we mentioned, the difference can hardly be felt. It’s being ran at the same power level as well so of course at higher power levels the KO should shine.
@@emotobros I 100% agree with you
You missing kV parameter form this calculation. get nucular for better logging and run phase test with equal toruqe (it will be different phase amps)
Kv and Kt are typically inversely proportional, though the purpose of this test was to determine if the Kt was considerably different between the two motors. Based on the testing they aren’t. Supposedly the KO has a lower Kv (around 2-5%) thus leading us to believe it’d have a higher Kt. From testing, it didn’t appear that the KO generated torque more efficiently then stock since it had similar acceleration at phase current equivalency. This may be explained by the IPM vs. SPM design and the fact that the KO would benefit from MTPA control.
@@emotobros oh that was with no mtpa?
Correct. I think only VESC based controllers offer that currently. Could be wrong though. Either way, it’s quite a bit of math to get MTPA fully optimized. Need almost full motor characterization.
In theory, the IPM should perform slightly below SPM in torque efficiency all else held equal. But once you add MTPA to the IPM, I’ve read gains could be close to 15%.
@@emotobros ahh. well there are noticeable difference in motor details tho, stock motor heats up more quickly compared to QS 165 in my case. btw nucular also have mtpa, and yes it needs motor measurment, but usually it is automated. also ipm motor have profit of better field weakening
When will the Bac 4000 be back in stock
This friday at 6PM PST!
Try do a review on a qs165 motor on surron bac4000
We have! It’s on the channel a couple videos back.
The KO is a significantly larger motor so it makes sense it’s going to be slower to spin up lol. The only area it excels is pushing high powers and sinking heat…
This is a valid point, but the inertial forces of the bigger stator should have minimal effect in it's 'spin up' time relative to the rest of the rotating mass in the drivetrain. Additionally, the slightly lower KV value should help with this. We agree that it does excel at high power and heat management relative to the stock motor.
@@emotobros Im not entirely convinced it wouldn’t though as we’ve seen by just replacing a chain that mph top speed increases by a few mph and we need to take into account that this is before gearing etc. From what I remember the stator was almost twice the size? Might be possible to compare the motor spin up times without a load not easy though and at the end of the day you have your results anyways :)
@@electricsnut That's true, but the top speed increases are due to decreased friction which increases with V^2 so that can cause a significant difference at high speeds. I suppose even if there is some increased inertial effect, it is what it is and it should be considered a down side for off the line performance. There is certainly a market for those who need high speed, rpm and thermal management.
Now try the fspec motor.
We’d love to! Gets a bit expensive testing a bunch of different motors hahaha
How about bring up the top speed current i can smoke a stock surron lol im gonna post a video
Please do. Sharing the video helps us get more views and grows the channel! We also comment on top speed gains at the end of the video 👍🏽
I think the 'kids' just dropped the mic
The big selling point of the KO motor was better heat rejection and the ability to more safely run higher current.
It would be informative to include a temperature measurement in various scenarios (since you dont have a dyno).
Like, record temperatures after... 5 back to back 500ft runs; 1 lap around a consistent test track; etc...
Yep, going to be doing that this summer out on the trails. We first wanted to set a baseline for torque efficiency between the two motors at the power levels we always ride at.
I thought the whole point of the ko motor was that you can run way more power through it without it over heating. I’d love to see you run 20 kw through both motors and see which one overheats first ( pretty certain the standard motor wouldn’t last long).
Oh the standard motor would blow up real quick. The reason we tested at 12kW is because that’s a very common power level for people to ride at offroad. We wanted a baseline for torque efficiency and then we will move to higher power tests.
I think that much over 12 kW on the Surron, given its weight, size, tire options, etc, is somewhere between silly and dangerous. In my opinion, the "issue" here is that a 35kW motor is wrong for this application. Even if the KO is superior to the stock motor, in every way, at 15kW and above, that better performance can never be realized on such a limited platform. (Unless you drag the surron on a 1/4 mile strip - which is getting back to silly-dangerous.) The KO Application Engineers either knew this or didn't do their due diligence, before trying to insert this motor into this app.
I looked at taking a surron to the max for road use. I’m 6’5” so I was planning to fit ktm85 forks and looked into an xl frame kit which would enable me to fit a longer swing arm ( which I also planned widening) and fit it with motorcycle 17” wheels. This could then handle the 35 kw but the cost just isn’t worth it. I still think that the ko motor is going to last longer even at 12kw but I never thought it would be any faster. Some guys are pushing 17 kw into surrons which is definitely the point at which the ko would come into its own but you guys are right that you probably don’t need that much power for off road use. I guess I’m like Tim the tool man Taylor ( more power urgh urgh urgh!)😂
I ve done exactly the same tests with stock/bypassed bms/aftermarket 60v/72v with draggy. And just bought a factory ko motor. BUT done the tests with nano and factory ko controller (and chain conversion) both my tests at 10kw ans 20kw are superiors with the ko motor. It would be interresting to compare your times with a ko controller which maybe setup the motor more corectly with 4 pair vs 5 for the stock motor. The motor test is my next video on my channel (in french sorry but you can translate the subtitles, and in metric mesures). Less heat with the ko motor too. I don t think the motor shines with ony 450amp. Curious to see tour tests with a ko controller to be fair. Great ans honnest video by the way
Email us a video if you make one! Will check it out for sure.
Did you make sure to use a current sensor on your phase wires to ensure the same amount of current was flowing into them on each test? Interestingly the power levels were not set equally to get the output to be equal. Somewhat of an odd product of the torque control scheme. If you’re just relying on the set power and not pulling a real time data stream that may be the reason for inconsistencies.
@@emotobros no but i ve checked the battery bms logs and ouput to verify
@@lstricks Yeah the BMS log is a good place to start but that just shows what is coming out of the battery and not what's going into the motor which is what matters. For example, I can pull 12kW from my battery and it'll read that on the BMS log but I can put either 450 phase amps or 650 phase amps into the motor and that 12kW number on the BMS data log won't change. However, the one pushing 650 phase amps into the motor will obviously be generating much more torque.
See if there is a way for you to monitor the current in the phase wires as a good starting point for a true head to head comparison. Looking forward to the results!
@@emotobros thank you. Understood. So maybe it would be interesting to test both motor at different phase amp. 450 phase amp is maybe where the stock motor shine. I m 230dc amp, 800 phase amp … it s where the ko motor shine vs stock.
@@lstricks Yeah, obviously the one with more phase current will be quicker but the torque should scale similarly to the point where one is saturated and one isn't. My guess is the KO with larger magnets can handle more current before it hits the point of magnetic saturation. We've ran 330DCA and 800 Phase amp on both the stock and KO motor and the performed similarly with the exception of the stock motor getting notably warmer.
This is disheartening a bit. 😢 But this is really about the application. KO can handle 80v, We are talking about the future of the industry and longer continuous run times on the motor compared to stock. I am very interested to see how they perform on the trail or a track with a more continuous power output. Awesome video 🔥🔥
Yep, KO can handle higher voltage and power and as we mentioned, is the superior motor. I think it’s safe to say it’ll perform better in almost every situation especially on trail or track. I think it solves a problem that only the most serious riders have and you pay a price for that!
you compared a 110kv motor with a 90kv motor. IPM vs SPM and wonder why you get less performance on the higher kv motor? btw your Bac controller isnt able to feed an IPM Motor as he deserved. ASI has no MTPA option and it makes a huge difference.
We had Tach’d the two tested motors, stock and KO at 88kV and 85kV respectively prior to the testing. Not sure I’ve ever seen a stock motor as high as 110kV but they do seem to have quite a large range. I’ve seen some with degraded magnets at around 100kV. I actually didn’t think the test outwardly proved there was ‘less performance’. All the times, especially at the longer durations appeared to be within a margin of error of each other.
Regarding max torque per amp control, I did look into that and couldn’t find a study discussing the nominal gains one could expect using it/not on an IPM or SPM motor or how the performance benefit is better on an SPM then an IPM without it. Shoot them to us in an email and we will check it out! We can certainly repeat the test with the KO controller as well 👍🏽
Different motors like different tunes, did you guys have different tunes for each motor ? They are 2 different types of motors due to the magnet configuration ! Not being rude ! I get that your trying to test just the motor, but a “perfect” tune for each motor using the same controller? The KO doesn’t seem worth its price, but curious about tuning of the tests !
Yep, the motors had vastly different parameter setups. That was the purpose of the phase current plots - to verify we had set them up ‘equally’.
The KO motor being IPM design is good for literally everything. Runs longer, better cooling, can handle high power, etc.
If you're running pavement, on supermoto wheels, at 60v, you'll be fine forever on the stock motor. I've cooked two stock motors already on 72v with a 21/18 wheel setup off-road.
Yo, I run 11 Kw with Torp TC500 and Stock Motor 60v, my motor gets very hot outside after some time, what are they signs of a cooked motor?
test at 20° hill , the torque will speak
Unfortunately there aren't any paved streets in the US that are 20 degrees. Testing this on dirt wouldn't be reliable because of wheel spin and even on the street at 20 degrees you'd likely be testing your ability to not wheelie off the back more so than the torque of the motor.
Lol KO. 😂 did the same to me. 🐍
Ive had to upgrade my motor to the KO and I dont agree with this assessmeent. I have more torque (some) and MUCH faster top speed. Im going to go out on a limb and chalk it up to other variables causing this "non benefit" such as tuning for example. The stock motor has issues with magnets losing strength (not only jumping off) which causes other problems which would force you to replace it anyhow. The KO seems to have a MUCH higher "durability" and "lifespan". My stock motor couldnt get past 72mph with wind help. The new motor with wind help got 86mph. Specs: 60v Chi batt, EBMX tune at 13kw, KO motor, 52T sprock.**edit: Oops and running BAC4000**. Yes I didnt like having to spend the money but the piece of mind at the chances of not having to replace the motor AGAIN and more speed and torque..WORTH IT! Now, if another company makes a motor similar to the idea and power of a KO, Id probably be giving the same praise or maybe more
I’ve got a 60v 63ah battery and asi bac4000 running 12kw.motor only done 441 miles thot it was Bac first so exchanged that then happened again with new Bac. Trail riding not riding hard and got told a roasted the motor. Would run for 20min then cut out for 10min motor wasn’t hot to touch so ordered a Qs165 motor. Had a remote session n Bac said moto temp high. My bike is in bits just now but hope to get up and running soon.
Yes it’s possible, but the entire reason that we showed the phase current plots were to show that we were inputting the same amount of power. There isn’t other tuning factors that’d lead to a difference. The motor only sees voltage and current.
Again, this wasn’t a top speed test as you talk about in your comment. We weren’t determining which was faster, just how they accelerated based on current input. The KO undoubtedly can handle more power and go faster as I mention at the end of the video.
@@emotobros yeah. But I'm finding that there are "sweet spot" tunes where when you input the same tune, the motors behave differently. Tough to explain but I hope it makes sense.
@@Ah85661 yeah.. thought my BAC was bad too.. NOPE just motor. Any my motor NEVER got hot. Only warm. Never threw a magnet. BUT one magnet had a sever degradation in "magnetism " and a 2nd one had a slight degradation. This caused an unbalanced motor where at certain rpm it made a noise like bad bearings and would cut out and give me a "current error". Surron is not responding to customers (i tried US headquarters) . So they won't be sending out replacement magnets which is all it would take to fix.😡.so went KO because nothing else like it avail. (For now).
@@bigkick86 Are you data logging to determine they are performing differently or is it just based on feel? I do understand what you're reffering to, we just did everything possible to ensure the same amount of voltage and current are being delivered to each motor. Outside of that, I'm not sure how you'd determine it is fair.
That being said, I could easily tune the KO to make more torque then it did in the video but that was beyond the purpose of the test.
ko is the worst company ive ever dealt with. i bought the swingarm and its unusable due to many reasons and theyve left me hanging for over 2 months now.
This is funny. You dont buy a KO motor to run only 12kw. Wtf would waist money on that. Broken record is a great way to describe this. Nothing new.
Yep exactly our point. If you don’t have any reason to run more than 12kW then upgrading isn’t worth it 👍🏽 you’d be shocked at the amount of people who buy absurd high power setups and then run normal power levels.
@E-Moto Bros 12kw is scary for most riders. Way more power than most can handle offroad. Especially single track. Pavement is totally different. I image a motor will be developed at some point. At speeds above 60mph, a gears seem crucial to maintain control.
Wtf are you talking about? Im about to upgrade to another Motor because my Stock Motor gets very hot @ 13kw
@lostinspace2899 that's what happens on street. I never had overheating with stock and a 72v battery tuned right. Pushing 15kw on tight single track. Lots of variables. I would just buy a better bike for street riding anyway.
Yikes! Run the motors at 20KW+ and then try to compare them 😂 one motor will still be ripping and the other will be in pieces. thought you guys were better than this... A very deceiving test indeed. The KO sacrifices some efficiency for much better power handling and heat dissipation. Do a test where you go 0-30 in sand or a hill climb 20x and record the time on the last run with both motors running their maximum allowed power for the scenario. THAT is a fair test. I bet these guys are still running the stock supra connector and breaker too 😂
Already addressed all your comments points in the video and have plans to test all of that. A bit hard to do any sort of trail riding where we live during the winter. All in good time friend. If you're in such a rush we encourage you to do the tests you're outlining and tag us in the video! We'd be happy to share a video that is the same quality as this testing the things you've outlined. I wish we had enough time, money and good weather to test whatever we want, where ever we want, when we want and have time to film and edit it all.
No good test starts at the highest power value without establishing baseline performance at repeatable values. Please reply with the exact time stamps that were deceiving and I will update the pinned comment to correct the mistake :)
@@emotobros title: 'setting the record straight'. The fact that you even created this video... You know what you're doing. Unfortunately, it's working. The Sur-ron community is very young and gullible. If you only mention the pros of one product and only mention the cons of the other, THAT is VERY deceiving. 0:00 - 12:18
@@therealbojak Yeah the title was more reffering to the people calling us kids, saying the bikes weren't setup the same and saying our testing was flawed. We set the record straight that our testing was not flawed, the bikes were setup the same and discussed that we are adults and full time engineers. Quite accurate in that regard.
As far as not listing the pros and cons - I'd give the video a rewatch as it sounds like you may have missed some information. We clearly state the KO is better for its 'intended purpose' - i.e. high speed and high power. That'd be a pro. We also mention that we tested the stock motor at 30kW and it smelled like it was burning, that'd be a con. We mention the KO costs more and at normal power levels performs the same, that's neiter a pro nor a con as it was expected - same goes for the stock motor. That being said, this was not supposed to be a video about our opinions on the two motors but rather a bland data analysis of how the two performed at standard aftermarket power levels.
My guess would be you came to the video with your decision already made that you don't like how or what we are presenting and your comment suggests that's true. If you felt mislead but can't list a specific time stamp in a 12 minute video where you felt mislead than I don't know that we can help. We of course also mentioned we are moving from baseline testing to higher power in the next video. If you feel something was misleading about this video we'd really like to hear what specifically was misleading so we don't do it again in the next one.
While I appreciate what you guys are doing and I also don't ride on the road, but, Just from youtube videos, most sur ron users are riding on the road. (Which I find crazy cuz it seems like they are just driving around just to do it.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
My ko motor and controller is way beyond what it was stock maybe learn how to tune it i have a 2023 37ahr and i love the money i spent on it screwthis the internet the internet knows nothing 😂😂😂
I think you may have missed the point of the video entirely. We quite obviously are not comparing a fully stock setup to a full KO setup. This is a comparison of torque efficiency.
Beyond that, we were one of the first SurRon tuners on the market and have been doing it for 3 years at this point. We have a great reputation for our tuning ability. This should be evident by our ability to tune two different motors to have the same phase/RPM curve.
I run a ko and 72v with a x9000 ...can't beat it
Nice! Heard great things about the x9000. Hope we can test it at some point along with the KO controllers.
I can Beat it with CrishCrossingWires Bac 8000 Lipo pack
A “factory” e bike motor
Nice