REALLY learning a melody - the 10x method! (works on any instrument)
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- ►"From Beginner to Bandstand", a video course by Katie Thiroux comprising over 3 hours of lessons, play-along tracks and bass transcriptions. courses.discov...
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LESSON NOTES:
In this lesson, Katie Thiroux teaches a fail-safe method to really memorise a melody. This will work for any instrument and any style. It also doesn’t matter how complex the melody is. All you need is your instrument, 10 small items such as coins and patience!
This is Katie's 2nd lesson for Discover Double Bass, so please make her welcome in the comments. :-)
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This is great. Pushing a piece into long term memory. You don’t practice until you get it right, you practice until you can’t get it wrong. Thanks for sharing!
I wish more RUclips music lessons were like this
Everyone has a beautiful tone on this channel!
Thanks Chris, it's been so inspiring to hear everyone up close and amazing how unique the different sounds are.
Great idea. I've seen this before. According to legend, Francisco Tárrega used to play this game with 100 marbles and a jar. Make a mistake? All the marbles come back out of the jar and you start over. Hardcore. As an instructional designer, I might put a couple of twists into the game. How about starting with the last bar instead of the first? When learning a new piece we always know the start really well, and things become less solid as we approach the end. So last bar 10 X. Then second last bar 10 X. Then second last and last together 10 X. Then 3rd last bar 10 X. Then 3rd last and 2nd last 10 X. Then 4th last bar 10 X. And so on. With Katie's approach, when you're done you've played the first bar much more than the last bar. I prefer to play all "chunks" of the piece the same number of times when the game is through. I also like the idea of practicing starting cold from any bar in the piece. Many musicians can only play a piece of music from the start. Being able to start from any measure deepens your knowledge. Who agrees with me? Who disagrees? Would love to hear from you either way.
Classical pianist Josh Wright also recommends learning a piece by starting at the end.
Pimsleur Language courses use the back to front method..
Makes sense to learn from back to front, since this way, when you go to perform the piece/song, you'll feel more and more confident in your ability to accurately play the song, the further along you get, since you've practiced the last few bars a lot more than the first few bars. I've heard of many Classical musicians who use this approach or the approach of only mainly practicing the bars they're not as confident in their ability to play perfectly yet, since it makes no sense to play through a 4-minute song, the only part that's really causing any trouble is a single chord-change in the bridge. In that case, focusing on just getting that chord change down will lead to faster results.
heartily agree !!
I've done this before. You end up playing the first part a hundred times but the ending only ten times. You sort of lose the flow. So I changed by playing the last bar perfectly, then learn the preceding bar and play to the end.
That's the way.
to be fair it works differently for different people , one size seldom fits all ... i posted a reply too as i have a not dissimilar experience to yours
This way you play the end a hundred times and the beginning only ten. Is that better? If you're excited, stressed or poorly warmed up, you're more likely to mess up the beginning than the ending, are you not?
@@pikherz Yes because when you've mastered new part, you can play to the end and it won't get the rest of your family all upset because you also have ironed out all the trouble parts too.
My teacher had me do this--it works. By the 10th time, you are digging in and feeling it groove. He told me, practice that part like you were getting it ready to play at Carnegie Hall. I need to get back to this method. Great for learning vocabulary from transcriptions as well. Instead of taking licks into every key, chose tunes you already know and practice it in the key center(s) of each tune. Limit it to one way of playing the melody/lick and really dig in. Good to see someone else echo'ing this method.
Fantastic, it's great to hear others use the same approach. Best of luck with your practice and thanks for watching. :-)
Great method to avoid that „ah good enough“ mindset!
Kate is a fantastic teacher and player, takes 30 seconds to realize this. I need to shed!
Lovely lady, beautiful bass and a wonderful lesson!
great lesson this is the first melody I learned a long time ago now I'm trying it with the bow.
Great lesson! I like to do fewer reps to start-say two or four for each bar or phrase-work all the way through the section, and then start from the beginning with more reps. This way, I’m moving through the material and starting to internalize the way the whole section flows and work out optimal fingerings, breaths, etc. Builds confidence and momentum too, especially when working with students :) Thank you!
Love the tone on her bass...
i use this an abacus. People thought i was mad. It was the old 10 times thing but never thought of doing it backwards lol. great lessons
Love the tone
I play piano. I've never done the coin thing before. But the techniques you use is what I was taught. I typically sight read each hand seperately. Then put together hands at a slower tempo I feel comfortable playing at. Increasing tempo as muscle memory takes over then working on the additional marking and embellishments. Nice tutorial!
In Pursuit of Excellence... Thanks, Katie!
I'll use a pair of dice as a counter.
I will use this method from now on.
Thank you for the excellent words. I find playing a new melody all the way through (at glacial tempo) is a good exercise first two or three times so you map out the shifts that will take place. After you understand the terrain (where are the shifts) playing the melody a bar at a time is good.
I do the same thing, but by phrases, rather than by measures. I think its more musical build it by phrases. Usually one phrase is 4 bars or so
Never seen anyone do it that way before. That's super cool
Thanks for watching and great to hear you enjoyed it :-)
Great lesson. The only thing I would change is that instead of measure by measure, I would learn it phrase by phrase. It's easier to remember something that makes musical sense. Ex: the 1st phrase is &2&3&4&1&. The 2nd phrase starts on the & of 3.
Great tip!
This is really great. And I've done this before as well. I also think it is so so so very important to be able to sing the melody from memory even before you get to your instrument. Of course, those bebop melodies are a bit more tricky than the tin pan alley standards ;)
forever? ... i learned mac the knife on electric 5 string , played it for years gigging ... havent played it in a decade ... cant remember it ... i DO remember it was a ludicrous amount of key changes ... forgive me ... i just bought an upright after 40 years of lust and im negotiating between my arthritus and the bass lol ... im loving the channel so far though ... lots of actually good advice ... this is the 1st thing ive seen that i find questionable so dont feel bad ..i really like the majority of the methods , but , as i discovered when teaching ( different discipline and a million years ago ) ... one size sadly never fits all..
.my point in short form is that having to go back all the time ruins the flow ... one of my students couldnt do his scales as when he made a mistake he would begin anew ... took weeks to get a scale out ...i tried to persuade him to play through then he would witness the error and be in tune with it ... nope ..
but having said that ive played with plenty of people who consider tuning their instrument to be a bit "picky" ... they are never short of work and several of them have boats ffs
Welcome to the channel, it's great to have you here. I completely agree about the different approaches, especially for something so personal as memorisation.
Best of luck with the upright and I hope you're enjoying the new bass :-)
Your A natural thats what makes the lesson so good.
inspiring teacher, player and singer. saw her giving a great concert in Bollnäs, Sweden in 2019-
Thank you so much for putting these free instructive videos up. They are really helpful!
You're welcome. I'm Glad you like them :-)
Great method, thanks for sharing!
Holy Moly. Interesting method. Sucks the life out of music a little though imo, but I am not wanting to play on a bandstand. I'll try a 3x version of the method.
You are great guys, I've never known this method, it sounds very helpful
K,
Check it Katie applies something interesting playing to memory she's simply exercising how you can be hip regardless of what you do. I wouldn't say she pulled something wrong, just an error, I?'ve erased the word wrong from my vocabulary. Personally I believe you can see the shine on the floor while or after you've mopped hey you bought a good can of wax, hopefully you're holding a good mop. I prefer lemon pine sol just because it smells good!!!
Wow supa dupa good idea I am going to try this method on my sax. That you for this really good way of learning.
Sounds great, but also extremely frustrating. I started visualizing myself throwing coins all around in a rage! 😅😅
yup that is unless you are slightly OCD in which case this is ideal ... and being slightly OCD actually helps in the initial muscle memory stage of learning
Just fantastic Katie!! Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it! :-)
If my math is right, it means you'll be practicing a 32 bar melody at 60 bpm for over an hour, about 70 minutes, assuming you get all 10 runs of everything correct, no mistakes made.
I have no doubts that this method works, as I've practiced in similar ways myself before, just wondering whether that is the most efficient way to go about it.
I think that's a great point. I guess it depends on how strict you are with the method and how complex the line is. For a bebop melody it's a great approach, but for something simpler it may be overkill.
Thank you!! Wow, that is a really cool way to burn a melody into your brain. Much appreciation ☺
Very good method i very like your approach i think you are a great professor thank’s do sharing
Thanks for watching and for your kind words.
I will try it. Sounds effective.
Thank you 👍✅
Wow! A great method to really learn a melody! Thank you!
this is very practical and efficient.
Great video for showing how much repetition required to get to a good performance. Did you consider using phrase by phrase method and does your routine make repetition of Bar one much greater than the final bar..does this matter?
For me, I use a tally counter. They're every inexpensive and compact. Still one of my favorite ways to practice and personally find it relaxing.
Thank you
helpful-ty kindly
Im going to do this to memorize it. Just have to remember to do it.
Hi Katie, first of all thanx for the vid...interesting content and well explained...wouldn't it be better to learn the melody (more musical in my opinion) in chunks of motivs instead strictly bar by bar? And additionally singing? Very nice tone you have btw... kind regards
Smart
I just bought an abacus that can count to a 100 because of this great advice.
Study and rehearsal is an essential part of being a musician that RUclips rarely gets to see. They say you have to do 10000 hours to master an instrument, or even anything. I think this also counts for DJ’s, visual artists and athletes.
I can appreciate the focus,
But how long(hours) did it take you to get the 8 bars right?
Alan Smollen until you get right? ☺️
Sick
I think learning phrase by phrase would be better. Understanding the phrases is far more useful than measure by measure. By the measure would serve you better when you're trying to learn a difficult part, like a fast, complicated run. Also, I think learning the melody via transcription by ear will get it into long term memory as well.
I agree. The way to practice that she's proposing is good, but how you divide the sections matter too. Sometimes, a phrase can be too long though, so one needs to be a bit flexible :)
Another thing to work on is the transitions between the sections. You might be able to play section A perfectly, and section B as well, but they might not sound good together because you forgot to work on the part that ties A and B together.
Thank you great tips
if i were a coin collector should i be using 10 basses as my tallies? thanks! :)
How do you manage different keys?
can it also be 7x? greets from big bazaar istanbul
What would you do if there was a note tied across the bar?
Really Nice sound and lesson ! Very helpfull, What brand of strings does she use?
Thxs
yay!!
After you've done this, start from the last bar and build your way back to the first one...
Great advice!
Scrapple tastes good.
That kind of method never worked for me. I end up getting bored and then my brain shuts off. The way I learn that works for me is to map where I'm going (the chords, the AABA, etc) with the song and not worry about the individual notes and details so much. After I can "walk" the path, then I can concentrate on working out the details of the notes, intonation, etc.
Do whatever works.
Hey Katie, Thanks, I really like that system! Q: I don't have enough strength in my left hand fingers to push the thicker strings. How much strength do I need?
Hi, it's Geoff here from Discover Double Bass. You really don't need strength to play the double bass as we use hand and arm weight to depress the strings. Here's a lesson you might find helpful. discoverdoublebass.com/lesson/arm-weight-double-bass-lesson Thanks for watching and good luck with your practice.
Great, thanks for sharing! Would you use this method on excersises aswell?
@@katiethiroux thanks for replying, I'm currently using the method on scale excersises , it's really effective, I'm going to use it on any repetitive excercise. Thanks for sharing, all the bass, Mikael
3/4 or 4/4 db size?
It's a 3/4 size
I just got a stand up bass, do you have a basic class for beginners explaining the notes and where they exist on the bass?
We don't have that exact lesson topic, but we do have a lot of lessons for beginners which you can check out here: discoverdoublebass.com/beginners-double-bass-lessons
discovering the bass... finding the notes would be route 1 ..the second thing ... lesson one " how to not have your very expensive bass fall over ... lesson two ... where are all the notes hiding ?
Count out loud the 1/4 note while executing the RHYTHM of this melody. That’s 10 times more important.
Great Job Katie who ever put those 25 down thumbs Imma tie them up with my E string Play yo bass my sista!
why your opening have music? isnt this a music channel? besides that, nice channel!
Learn more from Katie in her online video course, 'From Beginner to Bandstand' courses.discoverdoublebass.com/p/from-beginner-to-bandstand
This is how I would lose all of my students in two weeks :D
Tobi Vega LOL true, in it’s strict form it can make for a frustrating go at new material. But I’ve found that if I find a way to make the elements of the process light and fun w the student, take breaks, and maybe start w few reps and work up to more over time, this can be a really effective way to build a structure for practice method, perseverance and confidence. With my young students, I make it a game called “one step”: when they get it right, I take one step fwd; wrong, one step back. And their goal is to get me to walk from point A to point B. Happy teaching!
Unfortunately spending hours practicing a melody won't burn it into your memory. The only thing that's gonna do that is time. Surely if you practice like that 5 hours a day for a month you'll get it done, but you're not being optimal that way. It actually takes a lot less time per day, what really matters is the amount of days you practice it for. This is true for most melodies. Of course, it's a whole different story for technically challenging melodies (idk, Spain and Donna Lee for example). But one could argue that you need a lot of chops before even attempting to learn them
(I'm sure all the professionals, if there are any reading this, already know all of the above, but I remember when I was a beginner everybody told me to practice A LOT each day like that when in reality you're wasting most of your practice time if you do it like this)
Edit: some minor grammatical mistakes
🙏❤️🙏
The word is if you don't fabricate, the memory isn't needed...but otherwise...
Never get thru the piece. 5 is enough or maybe 4 bars!
this might work for some people ...but it's like painting by numbers ...not for me
Man i would rather go lick by lick than measure by measure.
Torture! ;-) Don't you find yourself to concentrated on not MAKING the mistake?