The First Order Doesn't Work | Star Wars
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- Опубликовано: 2 май 2021
- The First Order was established as a hidden enclave in the Unknown Regions, a place where Imperial loyalists could regroup. From here, the mistakes of the Galactic Empire might be fixed, and a new power could draw its plans to reconquer the galaxy. But with the rise and now fall of the First Order complete, did it live up to expectations?
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Развлечения
We mention in this video that several key New Republic star systems, including Coruscant and Kuat, join the First Order prior to the outbreak of war. I’ve seen conflicting sources on this, with some saying that they didn’t overtly join the First Order, but secretly supported it through the Centrist movement within the Republic Senate. In either case, I think this is just more evidence for the confusing and contradictory details that permeate the rise to power of the First Order.
Yeah same I look on the star wars wiki and was very confused on the timeline of the first order and that some planets left the new republic senate to join it. So confused
I hope you do well with your little redesign thing with the First Order thing, but I do have a question? I was wondering if even in your rewrite, will the Emperor still be one behind the First Order because I think its important to keep all overall details of the First Order. Though you probably have everything already written up, so I was just asking. Good luck
@@user-Jay178 Wookieepedia isn't legit or reliable for these types of things.
The genesis of the empire had clones it would have been logical to go back to using clone armies and droid armies.
Hi
There is a scene where Kylo is in a conference room. Where is this art taken from, General Tagge and General Romodi seem to be used in the art.
When the Supremacy was destroyed, we all mourned the loss of the Post Office.
Can someone explain to me what this means?
@@Risiko94 19:55
now how else can my wife's Baddragon toy come from.
It was quite effecient...
It did explain what happened to several of my Amazon packages.
When Darth Vader humiliated someone publicly, they didn't survive to have their authority jeopardized. Thus he still didn't undermine the chain of command, since it was a new subordinate who had been promoted to the position.
Regardless of any arguments based on logic about whether rule through fear or respect would be better, I think the strongest arguments in this video are based on creating a contrast with the Empire. The Empire lacked continuity of government, the First Order is made more interesting and credible if it learned from that. The Empire ruled through fear, the Thrawn novels explicitly broke with that approach and the First Order would have be more interesting for it as well.
Though it was Vader who broke the chain of command by killing the Emperor and all
@@jacobberg373 I mean at that point it's not breaking chain of command, it's treason for murdering your leader lol
@@Arashmickey I agree that Thrawn was the way forward. A First Order modeled on Thrawn would've been much more believable. Though even Thrawn used violence, when disposing of a mistake that could not be rectified by training. Still, for him, the use of fear was something much closer to the Age of Sail Royal Navy's. It enforced discipline, and Thrawn was perfectly willing to reward innovative thinking, even if the idea didn't work entirely.
@@LordVader1094 it would be if the whole sith model didn’t work on at some point the apprentice is suppose to kill the master
The writers just wanted to have a "rebels Vs empire" story like "the good original trilogy" and because the actual empire got their teeth kicked in in episode 6 they just wrote in a "totally not the Empire that was defeated, but actually it's the Empire that was defeated" entity.
They just wanted storm troopers to chase their new rebel good guys.
These aren't storm troopers these are our original soldiers; Blorm bloopers
It really does feel like that, doesn't it? With a bit more imagination and grounding there's no reason you couldn't make this plotline more believable, but it seems like that got abandoned in favor of more cool stuff happening.
@@MalikCarr Except hardly anything cool actually happened in the sequel trilogy to justify the lame recycled OT plot.
LOL, you think they used actual writers?
I guess if you can call a bunch of chimps in a room with crayons, construction paper and glue a writing team......
Everything about the sequel trilogy is one huge contrivance to recreate the Rebels vs. Empire conditions of the OT. Personally the part that offends me the most is that it completely undermines the resolution of the original story. Now I feel like Luke and his friends’ triumphs and character arcs don’t matter because they didn’t actually destroy the Empire, they didn’t actually destroy Palpatine, Vader died for pretty much nothing, Luke became a jerk, Han went back to being the jerk he originally was, and the New Republic seems to barely even exist. What am I supposed to feel good about when I watch Return of the Jedi, knowing that these characters that I have come to love didn’t actually accomplish a single one of the things they set out to do? But hey at least we got to see some X-wings and lightsabers again. Woo-boo!
“Kidnapping children is not an effective way to build an army”
*UNSC sweats*
Laughing in space marine
@@VunderGuy you get the point though 👀
@@inquisitorkryptman7893 Spartan Helots *panik*
The Ottoman Empire and the Mamluk Sultanate also are sweating right now.
*Real life mamlukes sweat nervously*
"What exactly did the First Order learn from the Galactic Empire here?"
How to invest all of their resources into a superweapon with a silly name and an easily-exploitable weakness which will be used exactly once before its destruction by the hands of a plucky fighter pilot?
Gonna need a whole Pokemart of Burn Heal for THAT one
The Empire never really did learn from Trench Run Disease, and the actual Empire in Legends commissioned the Lancer frigate SPECIFICALLY to hose X-Wings and the like because of that whereas the First Order doesn't even scramble fighters as part of their arrival in a hostile star system...
The Star Wars fans hated the Prequels, right?!
So we gonna make the original trilogy all over again.
@@Luke_Danger Tbh the Empire could have ended the trench runners with swarms of Buzz Droids. If the droids don't work then the pilot is a force user and could be focused with TIE Interceptors. Sending bigger ships after X-Wings ignores the speed, mobility and relatively low cost of the X-Wing.
not even a pilot thisd time, a crazy cat lady with a deathwish and a leadership style that fit betetr with the empire than with the republic (shut up, i have a plan. now stand there and die until i damn well tell you otherwise)
The biggest issue for me here is that the First Order goes from secretive and isolated to having conquered the entire galaxy in hours. And it is completely destroyed just days later.
I was under the impression that some months had passed between movies 8 and 9. Still, an awfully short time frame.
@@Codraroll A year. But yeah, pretty short and underwhelming war
@@arronprestwich2813 This War should have at least been a 5 year long war at least in my opinion. Instead of the first order taking everything. They take large pockets of pro-Imperial worlds not content with the New Republic, and other Neutral worlds who are either been unfairly punished by the Republic for being Imperial, or they See the New Republic becoming like the bureaucratic mess like the Old. Which would serve as the Order getting fresh recruits.
This leads to what i call the "2nd Galactic civil war" were we get something nearly similar to a Clone war Era battles all be it smaller scales.
@@Codraroll For a long time, I was under the thought that the clone wars had gone on for nearly ten years because of how big it was. So, yeah time matters not as much as size.
@@jacobberg373 it went on for 3 or 4, no?
"An army trained from birth, loyal to the final word."
It's almost as if there's some way this can exist in the Star Wars universe without some convoluted child kidnapping.
Iirc, the kaminoians were under heavy watch after they attempted to rebel against the empire, abd had lost a lot of their equipment
@@nicholascordero6600 there’s also you know Droids
That can be assembled in mass
@@theomnissiah-9120 SW droids are also kinda stupid though. They are fast, and can react faster than an organic, but their "thinking" is constrained and they're not exactly very creative. They're good because they're cheap and endless, not because they're... Good.
@@johngaynor4363 not true. They’re as good as they’re programmed to be.
Yes very loyal, oh wait one of the main characters is a stormtrooper who rebelled
The First Order is what happens when a writer who has no idea about politics, strategy, economy, manufacturing, or logistics is left to write a plot revolving around politics, strategy, economy, manufacturing, and logistics.
Essentially, the First Order is as if written by a child who hasn't yet learned anything about how the world works.
A child imagines rulers have power because people just blindly follow them, that things appear magically out of factories that don't need any resources, and that vast empires are as easy to rule control and conquer as a tiny city-state. (Basically "conquer the castle and control the kingdom")
What's weird is that someone with the imagination and knowledge of a child was allowed to write the world and the script to a full trilogy.
If only one someone did write a whole trilogy, it might have at least been mildly consistent. Instead no one was watching what was happening, just threw money at a few different people and asked for a trilogy. So a huge chunk of the trilogy was spent retconing shit the writers of 8 and 9 didn't like about movies 7 and 8.
They mistook childish writing for childlike wonder
In short, this is what happens when Disney & affirmative action hirings take over.
@@johnnyd6942In this case, yeah.
@@johnnyd6942 all three sequel movies were written and directed by white dudes
This is a perfect example of writing as you go, without fleshing out the details. The First Order was an entirely different entity in each of the sequel trilogy episodes, and had nebulous and seemingly infinite resources. After destroying a planet-sized base in 7, they are stronger than ever in 8, and are insanely powerful with a fleet of Death Stars in 9. Logistics is key in building a believable universe, and that aspect was completely ignored in the worldbuilding of this trilogy, unfortunately.
I have a theory that, in the episode 7, they may have originally been designed as a galactic version of one of the horrible African warlords you hear about, but with the added bonus of the empire pre-seeding equipment for them. But, if I remember correctly, the directors kept changing during all of the episodes, so...
Well technicaly the First Order didnt have a fleet of Death Stars the Sith did but other than that your 100% right
Dont forget that in the Unknow Regions the F.O. hasnt in peace building its ships. Its was expanding its frontiers, invading and coquering, planets and aliens goverments. It wasnt like there were using few resources.
In the canon comics its showed that Phasma threw away her troops for a win on the battle field, Kylo going with legions of troops against a alien species that Vader had do but wasnt able. There is a trick here that Kylo killed the massive beast that the specie considerated a "god", but still throw away the amount of resources used for such wars
I imagine that most of those thousands of star destroyers were just dummies with engines, to just be able to enter a planets orbit and threaten it
@@SP-sy5nq True. Thats something i saw yesterday that i never thought of, we only ever see one of them fire and then the Resistance is like "They must all have them." And we never see any evidence this was the case.
Starwars Logic:
We need an army! Recruits people.
We need an army! Builds robots.
We need an army! Grows a clone army.
We need an army! Recruits people.
We need an army! Kidnaps children...?
The fifth one? The Ottomans did it. It kinda worked.
@@nathanpangilinan4397 yeah for medieval armies, not for giant space battles and taking planets which require millions of people.
@@nathanpangilinan4397 It didn't just work, it made some of the best damn soldiers that history ever saw on the battlefield and brought the Ottoman Empire countless victory over the centuries.
Then explained why during the Battle of Umbara, why did it only take capturing three locations including just an airfield to occupy the entire planet? Star wars doesn't even follow basic science, but it has to follow proper military tactics.
@@jacobberg373 Until it grew corrupt and fomented a rebellious army right in their midst. Janissary armies did in fact attack and overthrow the government at one point (unless I'm remembering wrong.)
The thing that makes the failure of The First Order is the fact that the whole ''remnants of the old Empire try to reclaim it's glory'' was done well in the EU/Legends stories. Disney had the points, stories and blueprint to make The First Order work, but they didn't use it. They didn't even try. The entire thing was rushed and done as quickly and lazily as possible and it shows.
Imperial remnant would have been lame as hell. You'd be taking the original trilogy villain and making them less threatening, less powerful, and then trying to make it the big centerpiece of a movie. It works for books, it wouldnt be very entertaining as a movie.
Not saying the first order is better. I just mean the imperial remnant, as it exists in legends, also wouldnt have been very good for a trilogy of movies.
@@lenkagamine4145 I disagree about them being less threatening or powerful. They were written to be a big threat for a long time because they still had a lot of power, wealth and influence, it was just dying out, which was the point. The roles were essentially reversed, so now the Imperial forces where desperate and fighting to survive. Part of stuff like Shadows of the Empire, the Thrawn books and many others was to show how even this dying Empire still had some fight in it. What you call lame or think wouldn't work? That's the sequel trilogy. They gave us EXACTLY what you say wouldn't be entertaining as a movie. Disney took all of that from Legends and made it lamer.
@@mr.goblin6039 I *literally* say the first order isnt better. Its possible for both of these to be bad options. The thrawn trilogy works great as a novel. It does not work as a direct continuation of the story; its a side gig, an anthology story. It could even be a movie, but not as the big sequel to "the" star wars movies.
While it might be fun for you to see that the empire still has some bite, its just not a concept fitting for a large-scale blockbuster. Its screenwriting 101, you dont continue a story by making the enemy weaker and the hero stronger. The hero already beat the enemy at their strongest point, so theres no narrative tension. Even if the enemy still has some fight in them and poses a threat, you just find yourself thinking its a watered down version of the original.
You need to either revitalize them so they are every bit as much of a threat as they were before (finding ancient technology or something, awakening soem auxiliary force they didnt have before, I dunno theres lots of options) or come up with a new threat to be the big enemy.
@@lenkagamine4145 This seems like a *deeply* unimaginative (and incredibly Hollywood) approach to storytelling.
Heroes must be the underdogs now? As long as there's believable danger and stakes I don't think that's the case at all.
@@wrigglenight93 You're telling me that 'not using literally the same antagonist as the last time' is unimaginative? 'Doing literally just a watered down, weaker, and less threatening version of the last enemy' is somehow imaginative now? what?
Imagine if lord of the rings had a sequel where the entire kingdom of gondor fought some goblins in a cave somewhere, would that be very engaging when you already knew that they had fought against the combined forces of mordor?
Imagine if after Avengers: Age of Ultron the next movie was just fighting like, some random part of ultron that had escaped and was now weaker than ever. Would that be imaginative?
The hell you talking about?
You know what other army was trained since birth? The clones
At least they had accelerated growth
@@michaelrossi4904 And did not have a childhood that got robbed away from them when they got kidnapped, the only way to even keep those kinds of soldiers loyal is with fear. Because no one would fight for the First Order once they realised what they are doing. (I mean is Finn the only one that deflected? If you keep kidnapping kids as new recruits even if you were to you to remember it.. you might as some questions..)
@@runawayfreak Janissaries were much of the same, their main revolts were because they wanted higher pay instead of resentment/morality. But of course there should have been many more defectors in the First Order
And they were at least done well. Socialized over time (even if the Mando-loving Karen Traviss tried to paint them as despising the Jedi underneath it all).
Admittedly, the best 'childhood soldier' I think was done best was Sergeant Todd in 1998's "Soldier". That would've been how Finn should've been handled. "Sirring" everyone, and treating everything with military preciseness until he over the three movies, becomes more human.
So as always, the sequel trilogy took an idea that already existed in Star Wars and came up with a stupider version of it. xD
I would have preferred the new Star Wars be a reverse of the original trilogy, where the New Republic is the top dog and the First Order is the rebel group
This is exactly what I wanted
@@elitegamer9310 or even better. Have the Republic be somewhat corrupted with a classic military industrial complex story. That the economy benefitted from continued war now that industry isn't nationalized like the Empire. Weapons and ships created by KDY now are being sent to the First Order solely to push the Republic into fighting a continuous war that never ends.
It seems like that was the initial direction they were going but somewhere along the way (likely because of differing directorial visions and a lack of focus or vision on Disney's higher ups) that got canned in favor of Empire 2.0 which is a darn shame.
Yeah that's what it should have been. Too bad they destroyed the New Republic 40 minutes in and then we got a shittier version of the Empire.
@@Excalibur01 That sounds really like the prequel trilogy (corrupt government and a Jedi order that is removed from the actual problems of the galaxy) and a bit too blatantly copy pasted from real-life events (cough US cough). And it would break with the message and spirit of the Luke-Skywalker-trilogy. Luke would never let that happen and I wouldn't want his character butchered in yet another way.
Episode 1 through 6: Palpatine spends decades making subtle moves to get the galaxy to capitulate and even help build his empire.
Episode 7 through 9: Palpatine throws some poodoo at the wall just to see what sticks.
Idk man his plans in Episode 6 weren't particularly amazing either
@@tTaseric his plan in episode 6: "kill me and it'll make you evil or something"
@@tTaseric ,
His plan in Episode 6 was intelligent. Leak the details of an unfinished super weapon to the rebels to entice them to send the majority of their fleet to attack it. Then, use it's operational main weapon to destroy the rebel fleet insuring future conflict will result in victory. After the Rebel Fleet is mostly destroyed, use said super weapon on the systems which refuse to submit to his will, so he doesn't even need a huge army to invade them.
The turning Luke to the Dark Side was poorly thought out... but he would enjoy watching the son kill the father or father kill his son. He's evil like that.
@@aralornwolf3140 His plan was to let the Rebels attack the Death Star before it was finished, why not just finish the weapon and trick them into thinking it's unfinished?
What's the point in even making the Death Star when your plan is wiping out all the Rebels in one swift stroke anyway?
The next step of his genius plan was to convince a child to stab him and Vader, while hoping that a) He doesn't actually get stabbed and b) Vader doesn't react (despite having a long history of reacting to things)
@@tTaseric Our old Palpatine wasn't as bright as back in the day...
It should be mentioned. The idea of Imperial officers fleeing to the Unknown Regions to regroup their forces and launch a surprise attack to remake the Empire has been done before... with Grand Admiral Thrawn. And that was amazing because not only was Thrawn a compelling and interesting character, the Empire he made made sense. It was an Empire whose limits were very apparent. Thrawn heavily relied on speed and surprise to topple the New Republic because it was emphasized repeatedly that the Empire under his command did not have the men or the ships for a protracted conflict. So much so that Thrawn was using a lost fleet of old dreadnoughts crewed by rapidly grown clones to supplement his forces.
And more than that, Thrawn's reasons for attacking the New Republic made sense. Because Thrawn wasn't doing it because he loved Palpatine and wanted to bring him back. He was doing it because he knew that something much, much worse was coming and that the only chance the Galaxy had was the Empire.
Yep. Thrawn didn't give a damn about the Emperor or his pet murder robot
The best part about Data & Worf is they're both respect each others and valued their friendship.
Profile pic sauce?
@@marc7248 Sorry I don't remember, it's Hideyoshi and Kyubei. I will change it if it's yours and you don't like it.
Mutual respect and believable friendship also conspicuously absent for the most part in the last eight(?) Star Wars movies...
In which episode dos this scene happen?
You’d love Legend of the Galactic Heroes. It’s just 110 episodes of political and military structures.
And fleets with tens of thousands of ships blazing at each other in the eternal night while opera symphonies thunders in the background.
Rewriting the Franco-Prussian Enmity! This time with gorgeous anime boys!
Also a series of 10 books for those who like reading without the annoyance of watching tv at the same time.
If only Kircheis was here...
I've had that recommended to me a lot, it does sound super interesting. The animation doesn't seem too dated either, at least compared to something like initial d
Dear sequels : We acknowledge your existence but we do not grant you the rank of Canon
Yeah no, but Lucasfilm already considers them canon because the movies are always the highest of all canon material
@@jacobberg373 Lucasfilm didn't even like the EU characters and yet it was Canon for decades. Fans decide if it's good enough to be canon. So far the expanded universe is better than Disney trilogy in every way, shape and form.
@@jacobberg373 take a seat, young movie watcher.
@@jacobberg373 Ah yes. The Endor movies and the x mas special are considered the highest Canon then also
I do not even acknowledge them as being “Star Wars” at all - it’s “Disney Wars” to me and I consider it to be a completely separate franchise.
Vader actually didn't bully his officers while in front of their underlings. That scene is in front of other officers of same or higher ranks. And in other scenes Vader out right kills officers he deems incompetent and promotes the next officer in rank (as proper) to take his place, which make a powerful statement: FAILURE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE
Granted, such an approach has its own issues, but even still Ozzel (AFAIK the only officer that Vader killed on screen) had a demonstrable history of incompetence.
He promoted Veers who automatically had a decisive victory on Hoth
@@Fulcrox Not Veers, he was Imperial Army. The next guy in line was a Navy Officer.
Also, none of the officers in the Death Star scene are under Vader's command. Tarkin was the one in charge at the time.
Captain Needa was choked to death in ep 6 for losing the falcon
You just showed my theory, that the first order should of been a guerrilla fighter organization instead of just another Empire. How cool would it be if in the first film stormtroopers act like rebels and take over a secret senate super weapon Leia didn’t know of.
I disagree. They should have been a remnant or successor state like the Seleucids, Ptolemies, and Byzantines. Powerful at a regional level and in a cold war with the republic.
@@hypothalapotamus5293 why not both?A successor state, that takes over a secret Senat super weapon
@@hypothalapotamus5293
It would be interesting if they were on the scale of isis or other terrorists groups that has significant fear outside their controlled regions but in their own territory they essentially reflect something like a Juche military state with more religious zealotry than even the empire had. It's unfortunate they wanted to copy the empire so bad.
I always thought it would be cool to a sort of reversal of roles where a technologically superior and centralised organisation is conducting Guerilla and espionage warfare, while to decentralised and less developed power is the one in charge, like if somehow Iraq conquered the US and the US military conducts Guerilla war against Iraqi troops armed with old soviet equipment
@@yuvrajshah1158 This sounds like the plot to Command and a conquer Tiberium Wars, lol. “Cain Lives!”
Even in The Mandalorian, it still sorta makes sense for Imperial hold outs to still be around. It's only been 6 years and the galaxy is huge
Chuck wendig’s novel says it was one year for the empire to fall
In The Mandalorian everything makes more sense.
@@luckykennedy7364 The Empire falling as a unified government is very different than various independent holdouts all over the place.
Because the Mandalorian actually uses real themes from the fall of real empires to create its story
An in the Mandalorian the Remmants dont provoke the new Republic, look at the main baddie, he uses a small ship (comparable to what? A 1/10 of a ISD?) to move around, he has his forces scattered and spread, no previous defeat was a colossal loss. Meanwhile new villains lose one ffight and have major setbacks on their plans
I feel like a lot of the sequel trilogy's problems came from the filmmakers wanting to recreate Rebels VS Empire but not being able to justify it in universe. So they didn't try to justify it.
Exactly, they were creatively bankrupt and tried to photocopy the OT story again while disregarding everything else.
Bit more than that. Abrams went out of his way to get consultants from the original trilogy to try to make things work in the vein of doing what was done before. And part of that included one of the Writers. Who basically had a massive axe to grind over how Return of the Jedi wasn't a dark, bleak, hopeless ending where Luke became a Sith, the Rebellion was destroyed, Han was killed off, etc. So he basically got Abrams to force the outcome he wanted as a way of sticking it to Lucas for being ignored back then. It was a backstory and setup that The Force Awakens started with as a foundation built out of bitterness and spite. The best building blocks, of course.
@@hitomisalazar4073 Damn, they couldn't even learn from their own fictional universe about the effects of anger and hatred. :/
@@hitomisalazar4073
Although from what I have heard, Harrison Ford actually wanted Han Solo to die.
They also wiped the jedi out AGAIN, made Han a smuggler again, made Palpatine return from the dead, got a new evil masked Skywalker to redeem. And got a new desert planet hero who is secretly the offspring of a sith lord.
The Sequels are the textbook definition of creatively bankrupt
And therein lies the problem: You've put more thought into this than Disney did.
The Mandalorian pulled it off right with the Imperial Remnants. They're not inexplicably more powerful than the Empire but are still a threat to the protagonists because they operate in the Outer Rims where the New Republic has little influence over
Also an excuse to have stormtroopers. It would be interesting if the Republic troopers reflected stormtroopers or even appropriate the uniform as part of their normal army.
Imagine taking 5 years to explain the mystery of snoke, just to make him into Palpatines puppet. And THEN not even explaining how he survived either. It's like one day out of the blue, somebody walks into your room and says "somehow... Hitler has returned..."
you'd probably love German black comedy: Look Who's Back...
Then it's revealed that Hitler created Kim Yong-Il on a giant test tube...
Tbh even Hitler coming back is still more believable than this
He's in Argentina
@@mandalortemaan7510 was in Argentina. I doubt he’s the oldest man alive.
They should have gone with the "Imperial Remnant" option from Star Wars Legends, or something similar
@@echos5823 no way, there was a shit ton of infighting between leaders of the IR, not to mention the new republic had to fight and invade them for year and years, it doesn't make any sense that a "galactic" empire lost its entire vast fleet in one battle over some not tatooine.
@@echos5823 The Imperial Remnant is described as being the "good" side of the Empire, the one that wanted to bring law and order to the galaxy, and protect its residents, while the First Order is the more malicious side of the Empire, the one that's after power and control, even going as far as enslaving populations to do so.
@@echos5823 Initially? Yes. But it's morphed into something nonsensical over the past 5 years with all the nonsense the writers try to pull to justify their immense and unjustified military power
@@martianimperialcouncil9194 Interesting. That is a interesting dynamic between those joined Empire to maintain order amd those that joined for power.
@@echos5823 No. In the Expanded Universe the Rebels win at Endor and various ambitious Imperials break off and form their own factions, in a mirror of the Chinese 1910s-1940s Warlord period. Men like Zsinj, Harrsk and Teradoc use the massive resources available to them to fight each other while the newly formed New Republic exploits the divisions. It takes years for the NR to even take Coruscant, and the Galactic Civil War lasts literally like two decades, with the Imperials only reunifying into a single 'Imperial Remnant' towards the end under Admiral Pellaeon, before almost getting wiped out entirely. TL;DR unlike Nu-Star Wars the Empire does not spontaneously combust, it takes years to be defeated and it has comebacks under individuals like Grand Admiral Thrawn.
The short answer is simply: Lucasfilm wanted an evil villain faction and just copied the OG empire without thinking too hard about how it fits into the universe.
*COUGH AND PALPATNIE ZOMBIE COUGH*
not just "an" evil faction. they wanted empire vs rebels.
Disney needed a return on that $4billion, just remaking OT safest way to guarantee that.
@@kingsley3208 they needed those winnie the Pooh bucks
@@kingsley3208 Instead they barely made that back and are still deeper in the hole financially, they also tanked a 40+ year old IP in just a few years it's kind of impressive and sad.
@@jagar5580 starwars doing poorly in China.
The core issue with the First Order is they were basically written as "Empire 2; but more evil."
This ties in with the core issue of the sequel trilogy as whole in my opinion; it wants to be something new but keeps drawing upon the original trilogy for it's ideas or wanting to use things from the original trilogy wholesale.
Empire 2, but with somehow superior resources and manpower.
The Ottomans conscripted children to become their elite soldiers, and by all accounts the Jannisaries were very successful.
But they conscripted them from their own citizens and established a system in which a child getting conscripted might actually be really appealing to the parents.
But most importantly, the Ottomans bothered to actually train them into elite soldiers, and not just slap a fancy armor on janitors. That's the most important difference.
the thing to remember is that the janissaries were a small part of the ottoman army, sort of like the UNSC Spartans, or the actual Spartans who late in their history made a very small part of their armies.
Joseph Kony also kidnapped children and made them into child soldiers. But Joseph Kony's setting is in Sub-Saharan Africa, without that much manpower to draw from. Also, Kony's been on the backfoot for a long while now.
And it worked out extremely poorly, with janitors became de jure a secret rulers of the state. The same thing happened in Roman Empire where praetorian guard chose the emperor
@@rin_etoware_2989 Kony was recruiting in Uganda right? You sure about the whole "no adult manpower" thing?
Janniseries ware also taken by blood tax from provinces as slave soldiers. Like here on Balkan.
“ The first order doesn’t work” literally every Star Wars fan: yeah, we know...
Mmmmmhm..........
Sorry to tell you this, but star wars fan here and I respectfully disagree with both statements given in this comment. Sorry, but not sorry.
Not to mention that big planet-gun was one of the dumbest ideas ever.
Talk about a lack of creativity. "Let's make an EVEN BIGGER death star!"
And create imagery that completely ignores any form of actual physics for effects.
"suspension of disbelief", and "It's a movie, what do you expect?" only goes so far.
NO, you cannot dig a 1000 mile wide, 1000 mile deep trench around the equator of a planet and have it look like that. WTF is Wile E. Coyote the chief weapons designer for the first order?
BTW, Palpatine/Darth Sideous is DEAD. he died in Return of the Jedi.
@@jacobberg373 You're not a Star Wars fan. You're a white male.
Funny how they manged to Reign over the galaxy in a few days after losing the no doubt very vital and very expensive asset in "Starkiller Base".
Even "The Galactic Empire" with all it's funding, took a few years to build another one.
The First Order *should* have been in the second movie, going all "Operation Cinder" on worlds, doing hit-n-fade strikes, and the New Republic being too big and unwieldy a naval might to properly give chase leaving Leia's squadron of ships to be the only ones there able to hare after them.
Thereby leading to lots of cat-n-mouse and whittling each other down piecemeal.
Also Rey should've been a clone of Bastilla Shan (being as they resurrected the whole "Dark Empire" storyline as well as Thrawn; both from the previously decanonized EU.
When you were recapping the Sequel Trilogy's plot, it's crazy how little of it happened in Last Jedi
Huh?
@@JainaSoloB312 The jokes that pretty much ALL of last jedi was retconed in rise of skywalker.
@@Portersona69420 They pretty much retconned everything in return of the Jedi too. They ignore Anakin's redemption, the fact the rebels won, Palpatine died, and that Luke doesn't give up on family.
@@MinuteLeech2 Agreed! And that was their most grievous sin.
@@MinuteLeech2 which hurts cause Return of the Jedi is my favorite film in the franchise
"I destroyed them all... Not just the warship but the government and post office too!"
NOT THE POST OFFICE
*YOU* *MONSTER*
I honestly think the events that took place immediately after episode 6, such as the empire being on the back foot, watching imperial generals turn on each other and warlords carving out huge chunks of the former empire would’ve been a more interesting period for the new trilogy to focus on, or at least a TV series. Anything is better compared to what we got.
The thing is in the new canon none of that stuff happens because everyone in the empire just shoots themselves in the head immediately after Endor because palpatine tells them to
The Mandalorian does this, and it's universe is much more interesting than the sequel trilogy.
@@justinrice5405 Sorta, it seems that there are imperial holdouts, but not warlords with massive chunks of space under their rule.
@@gatheringtub63 there's also the fact that following the battle of Endor in the new canon the balance of power makes no sense because it goes immediately from the rebels only being able to beat the imperials by ambushing them out of position and the empire having a near complete stranglehold on the galaxy to then immediately after the battle of Endor the rebels being an unstoppable force barreling through the empire to the point where within just one year the empire goes from complete hegemony over the galaxy to completely destroyed
@@gatheringtub63 I will say for once I don't think this is actually j.j. Abrams fault he isn't the one that wrote any of this dumb shit about the battle of jakku he just had a planet with some star destroyers crashed on it there was no reason for the aftermath trilogy to write the battle of jakku the way it did so the blame for this one definitely belongs to Chuck Wendig
in the first 2 movies, The First Order was the secular successor to the Galactic Empire and has almost nothing to do with the Sith. And then in EP9, with no explanation whatsoever, it turned into the foot soldiers of the largest Sith Restorationist campaign
Preach🙌
Snoke and Kylo were marketed as "a new breed of Dark-Siders" and Kylo includes "the Sith" in his list of things Rey needs to let die
When vader punished his officers publicly he killed them. So he didn’t need to worry about maintaining respect. “This officer fucked up and I slowly suffocated him. You’re in charge now. If you fail you’ll be next.” That is some good motivation and it weeds out the bad apples at the top. Hux would have been dead and replaced before the Last Jedi even started.
No? It is not? It is literally one of the worst things you can do. But then again, it is addressed in the Expanded Universe. Vader creates an unberable workplace. People is to scared to do something on fear of fucking up. So people are to cautious to even THINK ideas. This is addresses in the Thrawn Trilogy. thrawn punished a man that constantly deflected guilt. But rewarded a man that failed but used a creative idea to try and subdue Luke.
The Soviets will like to have a word with you
It's also important to note that the only underling Vader actually kills on the screen is an officer who both had a history of incompetence and failed to follow orders.
@@nobody4248 apology accepted, Captain Needa.
@@flyboymb Damm, I forgot about that guy
The biggest and most apparent problem with the First Order, and more accurately the Sequels is JJ Abrahams, who has always ran off the “writing the universe as you go” system of artistic development. Letting him spearhead a series that demands so much internal consistency was a total mistake, and contributes to the lazy and incoherent nature of the sequels and The First Order.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands this
While I still think “The Last Jedi” is mostly to blame given that it’s the crux film that set in all the dumb writing and nonsensicality with the First Order, I can totally see how “The Force Awakens” strategy of “keeping everything vague and ironing out the details later” would set up problems for future films.
@@Jackal_El_Lobo34exactly, the first film gave us nothing. How would anyone follow that up? Bday what you want about the phantom menace but it was a good first film given the nature of the clone wars and Anakins story
But why?? I just can't wrap my head around how so many people could agree to make such a horrible series! What possible reason would they have to write the story this way? Especially when the story was already written and was amazing 😢
Its funny how in 9 they say cloning is an ancient sith technique even though a literal army of clones was made by the republic using alien science stuff.
So true, only the force is hard to clone or give to someone. But if one takes the Anakin was created by Palpatines master idea can one grasp the concept of giving over or taking the force. Like Palpatine might only have been able to kill his master becuese he was weak from creating Anakin.
Sorry for misspealing and so, tired.
@@DareSpeak23 Pretty sure its just because plap was a better fighter pluges spent all his time figuring this shit out
@@mryellow6918 yeah i was just theory spitting :)
I mean, MAYBE it was referring to transferring Palpatine's "Force essence" to a different clone body? I know "Sith alchemy" was a thing in the old EU as a handwave for unusual dark side feats and abilities.
I don't know, I'm just spitballing here. Frankly, I don't care enough about the sequel trilogy to bother trying to justify its myriad inconsistencies and plot holes. I would say I regard it as fanfiction, but that would be a disservice to all of the better written Star Wars fanfics out there.
To my understanding, it has to do with cloning Force-Sensitive individuals being a Sith technique, not overall cloning, but another decent example of poorly explained worldbuilding.
That note about the supremacy made me think of something I think is hilarious:
The ship is in a pitched battle, enemies attacking from all sides. The situation is dire but not lost. We cut to the command bridge where the military leaders are dictating strategy for the battle. Suddenly an explosion rocks the ship.
"Captain!" a support member calls out. "that last hit took out the Department of education! We have multiple hull breaches along those sectors and we're bleeding students fast!"
The screen lights up, what functional cameras can be found in that sector show school students being sucked into the void, flashes of weapons fire in the background.
"Damn!" the captain exclaims, slamming his hand into his chair. "Get me the department of commerce on the line, we'll have them coordinate a rescue effort."
Another officer shakes their head. "Sir that last strafing run not only knocked out a hangar full of strike craft but also the commercial ships we had been on boarding!"
The captain curses again, thinking intently. "Alright then we've only got one option. Get me the department of agriculture on the line!"
Another explosion rocks the ship
"Sir, with all due respect, what are they going to do to help?"
The captain turns and smiles at the junior officer "you ever see a fertilizer explosion?"
Monty Python and The Galactic Empire....?
"Captain!" a support member calls out. "that last hit took out the Department of education!"
And nothing of value was lost...
Points for inventiveness of the officer
Damn, your story actually got me hooked for more.
@@pedromelendez4625 :D thanks! Though can't say I'll manage to get much more of this squeezed out till my brain chases the next dumb idea XD
I think the First Order is summed up greatly by Captain Benjamin "Hawkeye" Pierce, MASH 4077: "Great. We're taking lessons from the losers."
I remember that episode.
@@alexmueller719Good old "Five O'clock Charlie".
Yes, we should have definitely bet on the jeep that day.
The benefit of a moving capital is actually huge, but completely lost on the the first order. The whole point is that it can stay away from the heat of battle. It can even leave the star system when your enemies come to destroy it. It’s easy to keep hidden.
The first order chucks the supremacy into every battle they can. Instead of chasing around the resistance with star destroyers, they chase them around the galaxy with the most important, vulnerable, juicy target the resistance has ever seen. Then, they are actually surprised when it gets blown up.
I imagined the post-Galactic Empire era as a universe with several imperial remnant states with some becoming legitimate governments with a more moderate stance (like the Pentastar Alignment) and others becoming more fanatical. In my version, the First Order would have been one of several imperial remnant groups that unifies them through false flag attacks and deceptions to drive a conflict between the New Galactic Republic and the remaining imperial forces.
Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. A good example to look at would be the Halo Universe, post the fall of the Covenant. There are many different Covenant splinter factions which popped up, all with varying ideologies and strength. Even then, that is not a perfect example as it does have a few flaws.
i would also have the rebels forming multiple states, the new republic would be but one of the rebel formed states.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 So you suggest that the New Republic form a loose confederation?
@@ianli3027 initially - yes, though with passage of time NR would form into coherent state to be able to leverage its power
@@ianli3027
I think the only way to justify the fo becoming so powerful so quickly and unopposed is if the post empire galaxy was extremely fragmented with the new republic only having true control of a few systems and the rest signing treaties to support the new republic but in practice a lot being warlords with their own agendas.
Should’ve called themselves the Neo-Empire for starters.
How about the Second Galactic Empire?
How about the loyalists
How about the Imperial Reformist faction? Still the link to the Empire but with the name fitting the idea of fighting an ideological war with the first order presented as being the lesser of two evils
I think the name "First Order" works because they could be either the "First" Order after the Rebellion, or they're named after the literal first order given after Palpatine's death.
They are a small splinter group of the remaining loyalist. They relied on kidnapping children to keep their numbers up.
The idea of such a small group conquering the universe is insane. The would be stretched way to thin and not be able to have power anywhere.
A name change would not remedy this fundemental problem
I just pretend this Sequels never happened: a bad dream.
@@lonelystrategos I love this reply so much
I agree. They are terrible and they tried to hard to fit the leftist woke agenda instead of creating an interesting story. They just needed a check box filled.
Starkiler base destroyed my suspension of disbelief on the sequels even on the movies. I was on my seat saying it was not possible on any way possible, no suspension of disbelief would make the physics of Starkiller base.
Coruscant isn't just the historic capital of the galaxy,it is also the human homeworld.Imagine someone taking Bodhgaya,Jerusalem,Mecca and Varanasi and nobody bats an eye.
Coruscant is the galactic, social and economic hub. Not only is it one of the closest to the core major worlds but it also has more hyperlanes connected to it than any other planet in the entire galaxy. The republic would not just let Coruscant secede since it's pretty much a hub for the entire core.
Not only that but according to canon it fell to crime lords and gangsters and it’s basically a galactic Johannesburg now. It’s just so stupid, and it’s disappointing that arguably the most influential planet In the galaxy was just overlooked and ignored by the New Republic.
@@Alex-rw9bd All this makes me wonder why did the FO even bother to attack.The Republic was living on borrowed time.
Correct me if i'm wrong but in the old cannon wasn't it only theorized that Coruscant was the human origin planet but they could never quite confirm it due to lack of data about the pre hyperspace wars era?
@@H3Vtux that’s still the theory, and after the empire fell it’s pretty much forgotten about.
This video is 27 minutes long... and puts more thought into the First Order than the Lucasfilm Story Group did.
That's the weird thing about much modern TV and movies. Some random dude on the Internet doing a snark video has put my time into thinking about the plot than the people paid the big bucks to do professionally. I sometimes think that Hollywood's overly on the nose politically messaging is put in for people to complain about so they don't complain about deeper issues. Like the fact that anyone with a mental age in double digits will think 'None of this makes any sense if you think about it for a few minutes'.
@asdrubale bisanzio My Uncle Sam had a cat named TrustBuster that would go after mice like that. Sadly, that cat is long dead.
@jnyxtreme Well, there are benefits to more focused world building instead of the vast universes some storytellers create. Attack on Titans' worldbuiling was never particularly encompassing, just enough to tell the excellent story.
It's a width vs depth thing. But of course, if you have neither, you get the sequels.
more like Di$ney
The Templin institute doesn't have a budget to worry about or a time limit. I'm sure the Lucasfilm Story Group came up with amazing things but they were pretty much no way to film it. Read Trevorrow script. It's amazing and would cost a fortune to film.
I think the funniest (or saddest) part about the child soldiers point is that at the end of Episode 9 we're supposed to be cheering as all the First Orders ships go down in flames. You know, with potentially millions of brainwashed soldiers who never got to choose their own life go down with them? Heck, since the First Order liked to keep things on the move, it's highly likely some of those ships carried *actual* children aboard them, similar to how the Clones brought their young ones on board for training.
Resistance: *Are we the baddies?*
My idea of salvaging The Force Awakens was to have Finn lead a mutiny and give an actual purpose to him being a stormtrooper instead of it being some random marketing shit where people question whether black people can be stormtroopers or even if stormtroopers are clones or not.
Instead they decided on all the bad options.
@@Snagprophetyup. It would've worked a lot better if the resistance and Poe were ex stormtroopers as well and you could still have Finn being funny and not knowing because he was brainwashed. It would make more sense imo and would give the isolated and OT style rebel vs empire feel without making little to no sense. Why doesn't the republic help? They're busy and that's an internal first order issue. Leia and Han could still show up as they were there during the OT and understand how the first order could be an issue
Just have it escalate in 8 and 9 to the point that there's a galactic war, then Ray Sue Finn and Poe can kill snoke or whatever and end the war (or just the films)
The whole plot of 7 could literally be the resistance trying to get information about a planet killer or something better to the republic to get them involved, then in 8 they're involved and winning before new crazy planet killer and in 9 they're losing, terrified, and Rey/Finn/Poe have all trained or been through a lot in the first films to the point that they're capable of taking down snoke. Luke Leia and Han can act as old wise guides to each of the three, Han and Poe Luke and Rey and Leia and Finn, seeing Poe become a masterful admiral, Rey a skilled Jedi, and Finn a strong general and resistance politician leading the resistance stormtroopers in this final push without new republic support. Would be very cool and not overly focused on the original characters being the heroes, you could even still kill off Luke or any of them in a more meaningful way while still showing their effects through these 3 new characters
They thought we would't realize the First Order was using exploits and cheat codes to spawn soldiers and ships.
Also, Palpatine totally used hacks to exit spectator mode after death.
Its almost as if the only thought put into writing the First Order was "Its the Empire... but different."
"The Empire, but for Millennials."
"It's bigger, too. Everything has to be bigger, because that makes it better."
"But not so different that we can't exploit brand recognition! People are already familiar with Stormtroopers and TIE fighters and Star Destroyers and stuff, and we don't want to have to teach them to recognize any new iconography. Can we have them be the Empire ... but just with a different name?"
@@DonVigaDeFierro As a Millennial, I approve this comment. Maybe "It's the Empire... but for Gen Z/A" since it almost fails for Millennials.
No, its worse. "It's the empire, but more ridiculous and over the top."
Templin Institute: "Murdering your predecessor delegitimize your new rule".
A whole bunch of Roman emperors: *visible confusion
Yeah, I don't think that was a very good point either. Especially since if I was a person in-universe who wanted to bet on Snoke's successor, my money would be on Kylo. After all, he's Snoke's apprentice and the only other Force user in the military.
Well, a majority of those Roman emperors who slaughtered their way to the throne never lasted on their throne, either. Most cases either involve them being backstabbed by their Praetorian Guard (who views their authority as illegitimate, or just taking the opportunity amidst the chaos this emperor is causing for power), or an upstart centurion refusing to recognize the new emperor's authority and legitimacy and gathers a large enough force or power to topple said emperor and either take the throne for himself or hand it over to someone else), or simply the Senate refusing to recognize the emperor (and again, declare him illegitimate) and has a sizable backing of the military to topple said emperor and install a new one.
Long story short, those in power likes having the old ways to stay that way. Try changing that by murdering the guy who's keeping things that way, and you better have a way to keep the old guy's subordinates, subordinate - by bribery or concessions or the likes.
Also isn't the whole "murdering the leader to become the new leader" is literally apart the Rule of Two and thus existing in the First Order mindset.
@@jacobberg373 But they are NOT SITH dammit!!
Yes, they act like Sith, have Sith powers, have Sith motivations and even look like Sith... But due to... Reasons (like creative circlejerking)... They are definitely 100% absolutely NOT SITH!
(Turns out, in episode IX: Abrams strikes back, it's confirmed that they were Sith all along, but last minute retcons don't count!!)
@@DonVigaDeFierro They have the trappings of the Sith, they fight like the Sith, but this can be imitated. They lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith have no fear. And I sense much fear in them.
This is the thing about First Order and sequel trilogy:
The more you know, more you think; worse it gets.
"The idea of a cabal of imperial military officers fleeing to the Unknown Regions sounds cool."
Gee, if only someone had come up with that idea 25 years ago, but ah... can't think of anything.
Legends never did something like this
@@jacobberg373 You're right. They did much, much better.
Actually I just looked into it. Thrawn created the Empire of the Hand in the Unknown regions according to the wiki. It held "considerable...holdings across the Unknown Regions."
Omega Actual And to make matters worse, it was made out to be at the very least a reasonably nice place to live, and surrounded on all sides by genocidal warlords (like the Yuuzhan Vong, Nuso Esva’s boys, etc.)
@@jacobberg373 Yes they did. Look things up before making stupid comments. Thrawn did it and it can be argued that Palpatine also did that in the deep core with his dark empire…which the sequels also copied.
@@jacobberg373 sith empire says hi
The First Order on Earth - you just described the movie Iron Sky
Which was comedy.
and with better writing YEAH I SAID IT
Or the newly forming Trump party
@@awes5709 more like the current occupants of the White House. One is senile and can't find the mask in own pocket without his handler's help.
The other one cackles in response to every question like the Wicked witch cause she's a bigger empty suit than the senile guy.
@@christophernemeth421 cope and seethe
Ironically the comics/novels treated the disintegration of the Empire in a more believable way: without Palpatine keeping things together, the highest ranks of the military devolved into petty warlords fighting among themselves to become the next Emperor.
Not helped by Palpatine not nominating a successor either.
@@CallanElliott That successor was supposed to be Darth Vader.
@@darksidegryphon5393 Too bad it was all too shocking for him
@@darksidegryphon5393 Where did he nominate Vader?
@@CallanElliott
Is that a new canon thing?
Cause in legends Palpatine planned to rule forever hence why he had no successor.
He basically just planned to abuse essence transfer to live forever and rule forever.
I did like the premise of having stormtroopers as a janissary-style army of children trained and indoctrinated from birth, but the issue is they seem to be a tell rather than a show thing, where we're told they're an elite army trained from birth but in practice are totally useless and the whole thing starts with one of them defecting
Also does the First Order has any homeworld? Any planet they rule? They are just a random army/fleet, with no government, or land, they're just there.
My biggest question has always been. Where did the First Order and the Sith Underworld get all their money?
Big giant spaceships, planet destroying super weapon, and all their armies would coast, in the order of, hundrets of decillions upon hundrets of decillions of dollars.
And, who keeps backing them, despite their gigantic looses.
Taking control of resources and means of production. Making deal with wealthy people in space(govertments, elites, corporations).
Using the black market.
So if they wanted a loyal army trained from birth, why didn't they just take Kamino?
Or build droids.
Video itself says “insert clip of droids” in the subtitles (but doesn’t show them); for me, I think the problem with Both clones & droids is the exploitability of having identical “hardware” (hacking droids, bioweaponry against clones).
Considering they literally mention the possibility of growing a clone army I find it absurd that the first order did not do this. Like they can have a fully trained army grown and ready in ten years in addition to their own recruited/conscripted forces and instead they focused on indoctrinating kidnapped children?
@@UGNAvalon Any thing that could be engineered to kill clones effectively would probably also work on any organic soldiers, so that isn’t really a downside.
@@poqrikhelix7150 But what if you want something that only affects clones (or _That_ particular clone line) but not your _Own_ organic troops? 🤔
I think the Yuuzhan Vong would have made the best connective thread for this trilogy of films. Also, with them they could have given worlds a plausible reason to defect from the Republic and join the First Order. With a battle that size, the Republic wouldn't be able help everyone. But with the First Order picking up their slack, they garner loyalty and respect. Make the First Order a growing Rival to the Republic, not something that's trying to take over.
So like if i remebr legends correctly the empir eof the hand?
Not necessairly Yuuzhan Vong, I don't think it would've worked with the movies. They are a little bit too "alien" for Star Wars Universe. The movies have to be enjoyable by the wider masses. If half of the core fanbase hated on Vongs decades ago (I still remember all the discussions hating on the idea of intra-galactic masochistic space orcs), I just can't see it happening. Vongs are too... adult, you know? It's not a content ment for young audiences.
Because, in the end, Star Wars is ment for kids.
Meanwhile, Vongs... They loved pain. They had the whole pletora of biological torture machines. They worshipped pain, made sacrifices to their gods, mutilated themselves, hated technology with passion. They were straight out of WH40K, that's why I loved them at the first sight. That, and their bio-tech.
They would've been great faction for a TV series, not THE Sequel trilogy.
But, having said all that, I think that a major, not necessairly inter-galactic threat would be a great motive for the sequel trilogy. You know, there are so many alien species in the galaxy, they could've come up with ANYTHING. Even without some alien threat, making the First Order more compelling, or just picking up the post-Empire warlord and making it a focus of a new trillogy (not necessairly Thrawn, but maybe someone entirely new)? It could've been great.
@@Vitalis94
I wouldn't say star wars is for kids but more along the lines of it's for people of all audiences. Meaning it's safe for them to watch and mature enough for parents and other adults to enjoy. But I understand. The Vong are a bit too gritty to put on to the big screen and keep a wide demographic.
How about a fleet of rakata cryosleeper ships...
They were send out to the next galaxy for exploration and to conquer what they could find
For reasons unknown they now come back only to find their home galaxy in the state we have come to know it...
Making a sequel trilogy focused around the Yuuzhan Vong could have worked, but not without set-up. Disney should have built up to that with a series of Mandalorian-style shows to introduce new characters and tell the story of the transition from the Empire to the New Republic Era, featuring various Imperial Remnant and underworld factions as antagonists. Then after all that buildup you could have had big screen movies with non-geriatric established characters who had earned their place facing off against high stakes that people would have actually cared about.
For all of that to work though you would need people who are both talented and passionate in charge. Instead we got Kathleen Kennedy who is only passionate about herself and her political agenda.
Great, really _great_ video. I didn't even know that Snoke's flagship was actually also meant to be the FO *capital,* not just it's capital *ship.*
Very good job deconstructing the terrible worldbuilding in the Sequel trilogy. I especially liked the focus on consistency you set - as with the trilogy overall, the First Order, as the Main antagonists, habe nowhere near the required level of consistency and depth to be even slightly believable. To me, they have always been simply a magical faction. Even the child kidnapping stuff to 'recruit'stormtroopers always just seemed like a throwaway line or maybe just an _individual_ truth about Finn, but is so absurd that I could never envision all of the FO's soldiers actually having that origin. Like an automatic dismissal of what the movie actually tells you to believe about it's own logic, because the logic is so bad that it cannot be fathomably true.
They could have just adapted legends. So much content for them to reuse in movies for YEARS
Agreed
They kinda did, but just a whole lot worse.
The chose to adapt the Dark Empire storyline of all things (and badly)
They actually had the bare-faced cheek during the release window for Episode 7 to come out and say "Oh yeah, we had to come up with something new because there was no other Star Wars lore"
I'm not even a Star Wars fan in particular but I thought that was just insulting. All of the Expanded Universe writers must have looked at them and said "Am I a joke to you?"
That whole scene between Data and Worf is absolutely brilliant. A great example of not only how to portray chain of command but also how to take criticism in an adult manner.
Yeah, but it's Star Wars, and the Empire and First Order are all bad guys who are all ploting to backstab each other and try to get a leg up on all around them.
@@ackbarfan5556 this is why the Sith empire fell
@@LucyWest370 someone should've rebranded the sith with better values. The sith need a better structure system. You didn't even really need to be a sith to get away with what caused thr fall of the jedi. Just be really cunning in the face of arrogant ignorance
@@KrillintheVillain the entire point of the Sith was to have some evil force users who would stab the other guy in the back when the time came.
@@LucyWest370 I suppose. Their group had a horribly unsustainable model.
I like to think that the ruins of the Supremacy are now a pirate space station
So, the Canon Errant Venture?
Honestly the ruins above Crait are probably absolute gold-mines for pirates and smugglers. Just a treasure trove of the most powerful weaponry and technology the galaxy has ever seen
Dibs
@@SoloWing88 No, it got integrated INTO the Errant Venture!
@@tTaseric Same with the ruins above/on Exagol. Rey just had to broadcast how to get there to the entire galaxy, didn't she? Heck, they're probably even better!
14:25 "...Display a lack of leadership, belittling and assaulting their subordinates."
Cue Leia slapping Poe and dressing him down in front of everyone under his command for successfully accomplishing a significant military objective that was under her authority (and not countermanded by her) because it took losses like any military engagement would, and a number of them by flukes of bad luck that could not have been predicted nor were they Poe's fault.
...Let's face it, no one is good at leadership in this trilogy.
It was not a significant accomplishment, and resulted in the loss of all the the heavy bombers that the Resistance had available. As Leia explained, the First Order had replacement ship available, but the Resistance did not. And he disobeyed a direct order.
@@gundamnexus-dk8yi However, the replacement ship was not present. While the existing ship's devastating main gun demonstrated a range seemingly sufficient to strike the fleeing Resistance fleet during the subsequent chase.
Additionally, the loss of the bombers was, as-mentioned, due to absurd bad luck with a crashing TIE taking out one, and shrapnel from the one taking out another, I believe; the kind of things that were not a flaw in Poe's plan but merely absurdly unforeseeable circumstances (or else such a thing was inevitable in any circumstance they would be deployed in).
Thirdly, this was the agreed-upon plan, the only difference was Leia getting cold feet at the last second and trying to cancel it; this was what they intended to do all along. Any risk to the bombers in such an engagement was always going to be a part of the plan. And it still represents a tactical success. The destruction of a major and powerful enemy ship is not nullified because more than one exist in their fleet.
And fourthly, Leia seemed to be the one that deployed the bombers (Poe saying ''launch the bombers' to her), or at the very least, over an open channel that she did not countermand; at that point, the responsibility falls on her shoulders, not his; Poe was not responsible for the results once she agreed to go ahead with it, either explicitly, or implicitly by issuing no contrary orders to the bombers.
Now, yes, he did disobey orders. Granted on that one. That wasn't a good thing. Regardless, that does not negate the strategic accomplishment, Leia's responsibility for the bomber's deployment, the loss of the bombers being no one's fault (except the incompetent designer of those bombers, it seems), and the fact that Leia's choice of handling the chain of command is absurdly incompetent, representing poor discipline, poor leadership skills, and simply poor character. Did Poe deserve a reprimand for disobeying orders? Sure. Publicly being dressed down in front of his own subordinates? Debatable leadership style that potentially undercuts any future authority, but maybe. A slap in private? I mean, that's not a direct I would go, but... conceivably, I guess? But being slapped and humiliated in front of his subordinates? Yeah, no military commander in the world is going to tell you that's a good idea; that destroys your image and his in front of the people that you're supposed to lead.
I like how thorough this is. You put WAAAAY more thought into the first order than Disney did.
7:00 Oh my God... it's the plot of Iron Sky!
The first order would’ve been more compelling if they tried to turn John Boyega into a white guy.
@@Kaanfight WTF!!! Jesus Christ, that's really not right at all, what's the matte with you.
@@jacobberg373 have you not heard of the movie Iron Sky?
@@Kaanfight probably a normie lol
The First Order done correctly already exists in pre-disney EU. The Imperial Remnant was precisely what you thought the First Order should've been.
There would be no Imperial Remnant after 30 years.
@@ShadowSonic2 30 years isn't that long. Especially when you have a galaxy to hide in and a government that (in theory) loosely follows the jedi religion and wouldn't inherently want to militarily crush non-sith elements of the remnants.
@@matthewcoyle4131 The Empire itself was barely 20 years old when it fell. Remnants would all ge gone in 5 to 10 years.
@@ShadowSonic2 why? The Empire has the largest military in galactic history. They could have held out for decades, like they nearly did.
@@Something8830 Plenty of them would have just given up after ROTJ, that's why we saw so many celebrations when Palpatine died.
"Only a few knew Palpatine had been restored"
Yeah, he announced his return in Fortnite. no, really. there was a special event on Fortnite where a broadcast was sent out with Palpatine announcing he has returned. if you're not a fan of Fortnite or weren't playing it that night, you missed out. so yes, only a few knew
Brilliant marketing
"There's really no purpose for... having a roaming capital"
Tell that to the Covenant
The Covenant makes sense though. They are not really a sane civilization. They are a objectively obsessive theocracy. So theirs makes sense in regards to the leadership wanting to show up wherever a major Forerunner site was found and would serve as a show of power since its sheer scale and the fleet that protects it would give pause and likely awe. Combine that with the fact that it in and of itself has one of the Forerunner artifacts and in fact probably the second most important they ever found after the halo installations themselves in the form of the keyship and the Ancilla on board and its mobility is also a defense for said artifact. So theirs makes a twisted sort of sense once you realize what the Covenant is but the First Order is closer to a Junta or dictatorship and not a theocracy with a obsession of archeological finds.
An idea I have: a faction in Star Wars universe that severely lacks manpower and resources might decide to instead hack droids. This could even allow them to bypass planetary shields easily.
Basically, rather than landing on a planet, they isolate it and cause a huge machine uprising on the surface.
That would be a pretty terrifying faction to fight against in Star Wars universe, and it would make sense for them to have a moving capital in form of a spaceship, since it would allow them to basically act as a migratory partisan base troughout the galaxy.
IG-88 droid rebellion done right?
@@johnquach8821 basically clone wars minus clones and the b1 droids
Too creative for the Disney/Lucasfilm morrons. Dont you ever pitch this idea to them, their heads would explode.
There was a comic with a plot similar to that. İ think it was Agent of the Empire: İron Eclipse.
Genestealer cult but Star Wars? I like it
There was no way the First Order was gonna work when Disney had the trilogy change directors and writers between the movies. No idea what possessed them to think you could do this to a trilogy, or make them think the fans would like how they handled the original characters
Even worse, they had directors with completely opposing and incompatible approaches to the story, to the point where RoS made it a point to clumsily retcon multiple story elements from TLJ.
@@sentrysapper45 Were there story elements to begin with from TLJ?
@BK Beatty Unfortunately, Han wasn't the only one who deserved much better. Luke Skywalker's portrayal in the movie was horrifying.
Drinking himself drunk at a Nar Shaddaa bar would've been less indignifying compared to milking some walrus cow - whatever that thing was! Were they high and drunk when they came up with that part? Or was ruining the original characters the whole idea?
@BK Beatty If I may say, that scene of Luke considering to kill Ben didn't seem right, in more ways than one
The original trilogy changed directors and writers movie to movie and look how that turned out. It's done so that directors avoid burn out + to keep costs down by preventing directors from demanding more money. The problem was that unlike G. Lucas the new executives had no concern over Star Wars.
The fact that they wanted us to swallow that the New Republic would be so careless about potential new empires arising in secret while everybody knows how Palpatine got hold of power in front of everyone's noses is astounding.
My biggest problem with the First Order (and with the resistance too) is that they both just seemed perpetually incompetent. It's really hard to enjoy watching something when the only thing that you can think about is how dumb the decisions being made by the characters are.
"Only a few aware that Palpatine had been restored"
NOBODY was aware, because they blatantly backfilled that in Ep 9.
This is part of the problem, they fudged it.
"Hey lets put this important plot-thread entirely on Fortnite..."
To be fair the OT had a similar issue because, at first, Vader was supposed to just be messing with Luke's head and Lucas changed it at the last minute. Vader's turn to good is handled so crudely, to me, its one of the weaker parts of the original trilogy.
Maybe he meant his followers?
@@spectre111 wait, 4 real? Yo, thats lit.
@@sansghost3089 Um....what?
In the sequels I always wanted to see the First Order interact with the Senate on Coruscant. I expected someone like Hux to be present and critize the Senate's administration and walk out in protest like how Japan withdrew from the League of Nations conference in 1931. I think if would have been good context.
Oh no ... but .... but .... but that would be politics like in the prequels and nobody likes the prequels
@@therac197 There are ways of intelligently writing political stories and making them exciting for audiences. The Prequels did it wrong.
@@KenoshiAkai depends how you define "wrong". In my opinion, politics shown in Prequels while not as exciting as following main characters were interesting in making sense how universe works
@@therac197 While you are right, I don't think politics has to be boring. George unfortunately, went too far with it. But it can be entertaining! Generally speaking, I just wanted to see what the new Republic on Coruscant looked like post-galactic civil war. Seeing Rebel honour guards instead of Imperial guards guarding the door ways, maybe seeing Luke, Han and Leia debate matters like the state of the jedi, or the rising state of the First Order and hear what the Galaxy thinks. I'm not suggesting the whole film should have been like this but at least 10 minutes? In my mind it works, but of course I am not a director, hah.
@@brad5426 Do you think the Clone Wars handled its political episodes better than the movies?
Templin's standard practice of transferring a plot to the real world and seeing how it holds up is - genial!
The main problem is that the First Order was very clearly supposed to represent a role reversal in the galactic balance of power - Evil Rebels vs Good Empire. But because having the heroes as the underdogs is the easiest (read: laziest) way to have stakes, the balance of power was almost immediately flipped back to Good Rebels vs Evil Empire, by axeing the New Republic and having the Resistance take their place, while the First Order took over the Galaxy. If they didn't even bother to explore their own premise, how can you expect them to flesh out the factions in question?
Halsey Voice: "that's not how you do child soldiers!"
Nah, the voice speaking about how that is not how child soldiers are done is probably a Turkish or Arabic one, considering the Ottoman Empire and the Mamluk Sultanate.
@@nathanpangilinan4397 TBH a full on crazy mode Janissary style group of child/teenage soldiers would have been just metal-evil-crazy enough to work.
Way better than the "They are child soldiers! Who are all adults now, no teenagers either, somehow, dunno where they all came from but there all finished and committed."
it's really sad when one follows a fantasy/sci-fi world and suddenly it takes a turn that feels like cheap backdrops were just thrown together :-(
“Bigger is better”
-literally almost every First Order engineer
Imagine how much work Filoni would have to put into the canon around the sequels to iron out major flaws like this, I think even he couldn't.
They only way getting around this is declare this entire trilogy Non-canon at this point an erase it from the canon storyline forever.
Remake Epsoide 8 and 9 would be the only option
@@DragonmasterCire I'd get rid of 7 too. It screwed everything up resetting the story to rebels vs the empire with the jedi wiped out again like the OT never happened
Well, at least Legends the Galactic Empire became Imperial Remnant that got reformed, got a decent leader in admiral Pellaeon, and later developed into Fel Empire. That was IMHO far more natural progression. If only we got more from that timeline...
If only disney hadn't put a bullet through the head of the entire EU. Lucas arts knew the entire Canon. They could have pared it down and got rid of the crazy and taken it forward. Instead we get this rubbish
@@sheep21 They didn't put a bullet through it, they basically reminded everyone "this stuff was only canon until contradicted" - which Lucas had done by implication with the Prequels. (And then the 'Legends EU' had to go back and try to fix that.) They just made explicit what was already true.
But of course, it was still raided for characters and ideas when they needed an idea and didn't have one which fit. Filoni did that numerous times, and the Mandalorian also ripped stuff right out of 'Legends' for pure fanservice (the return of Boba Fett was such a thing, the existence of Thrawn is another). All they need is Kyle Katarn now.
On the other hand, there's no Kyp Durron and Sun Crusher, no 'Darksaber' superweapon, and no 'Glove of Darth Vader'...
If only Disney hadn't gotten their incompetent hands on Star Wars we would have.
But also the fighting between the republic and the empire dragged on for about 2 decades with momentum swinging back and forth several times.
_"How long can this conflict go? How long can the Resistance keep going?"_
- That guy from RedLetterMedia.
@@yomomma5086 heh, the Force is strong in this comment.
I love how the first shot in episode 7 is just a big middle finger... how ironic....
I'd like to point out here that courascant, in the legends canon, is a galactic capital so important that the New Republic is based there as well, so it's less like JIG joined the first order and more like Britain or France
First Order, Palpatine's plan would have succeeded if Palpatine had not announced himself to the galaxy. It would have given his magical fleet time to depart whatever the hell the name of that world was, in safety, then proceed to conquer the galaxy.
Stupid script writers can not believably write smart characters.
The bad guys have to have enough ships and people to be super threatening, but yet dumb enough to somehow all be defeated by a small group of heroes. Its a recipe for plot disappointment. This is not limited to the Disney films. To be honest, there were WAY too few defensive tie fighters at the end of A new hope. The very idea of destroying an entire plannet to take out a tiny rebel base was absurd on its face, and a different strategy at the start of The Empire Strikes Back was massively more effective. In fact looking at Empire, its pretty clear that Death Star's are very ineffective, unless you just want to blow up planets, and its just so wasteful of resources, and risky, since all the death star variants have had huge vulnerabilities that were easily exploited.
@@sprinkle61 The Imperial leadership, Tarkin mostly, didn't think small fighters were a threat to the Death Star. The exception was Vader, who takes like 2 wing men with him. It's a plot that only works once.
Not sure Vader taking a major chunk of the Imperial fleet (I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF STAR DESTROYERS) to launch probe droids and hope to find a needle in a haystack that is a rebel base is a great strategy. It arguably took them 3 years. (I recall it is canon that there is 3 years between ANH and ESB) We just see the eventual pay off....and the Rebel mostly escape anyway.
@@scockery The power imbalance between the Empire and everyone else was so vast that any battle strategy that didn't expose Emperial leadership or large scale ships to enemy attacks would eventually succeed, just from attrition. Clearly, to have interesting movies you need some setup where the good guys could overcome the odds, but the slow and metulous use of expendable drones and mid sized ships works great in Empire, even if it was inefficient in tme and starships, it got the job done in the end, at only a small cost of walkers and troopers, probably less losses than the rebels suffered. 2 or 3 more Hoth style battles and this group of rebels would have been stomped out. Although it was extremely reminicent of Empire, The Last Jedi pretty clearly showed that once a space battle was started, a decent number of mid-sized ships could just attrition away the rebel forces, if they could force the rebels to fight in space, or at least not flee successfully. Although I like the setting of Star Wars, the space battles always seem to come down to raw numbers, and the bad guys always seem to have the numbers, so more and more contrived methods have to be found for the rebels to strike a decisive final blow. There almost HAS to be a Death Star, or a uselessly immoble fleet, so the heroes have a chance to win, which just seems more and more silly, the more times they do it...
@@Grubnar
The best stories involve a competent antagonist who is defeated by the protagonists being even more competent. This is something that, indeed, stupid script writers are unable to create because stupid script writers rely on stupidity as the main weakness of their antagonists which turns those antagonists into non-threatening jokes.
The problem with the sequel trilogy is they forgot to include the most important character:
The world. The world is the most important character of Star Wars
"Well.. then I have an ARMY of star destroyers - like, 10,000 of them!" - either something a 7-year old would say in the backyard when arguing w/ the neighbor kid the actual plot of the final SW movie
Damn...well done mate... Love to see a thought out argument that's not biased one way or the other. You're not out to mock or tear down star wars, but just seeing something that's....off..and digging in.
It's not just that they are ambiguous, it is, most importantly, that the plot abuses their ambiguity to lend them magic power from nowhere.
Even after repeatedly losing huge battles : they get... Stronger?
@@themc.kennyshow6585 Not just lose, they had their planet-sized main base get blown up (killing thousands, if not billions, of First Order comrades) in TFA, and, in TLJ, they lose The First Order Dreadnought, two of their major comrades (Snoke and Captain Phasma (though the former died solely because he was insufferable (declaring that he cannot be betrayed, despite knowing full well that Finn previously betrayed him, and acknowledging that Kylo ("(has) too much of your father's heart in (him)") near the start of the movie), and, with that in mind, was likely an unintelligent leader, and, as the previous film and Phasma's tie-in novel shows, the loss of the latter might've benefited The First Order)), and the Supremacy got rammed in half. Come TRoS, and they're even stronger than ever.
It's interesting to apply your points to a movie that's somewhat similar to "The Force Awakens": "Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack". In the latter, you have the beaten remnants of a tyrannical force secretly rebuilt into a powerful army (Neo-Zion) while being in exile. It then launches a surprise attack against the existing Earth govt who totally underestimated the magnitude of the threat and sent an underpowered force to deal with them. In this case, Neo-Zion didn't have a problem with recruits (they had a lot of followers), discipline, and ideas (freedom from Earth, among others). They did have a problem with the moving govt (it went wherever the Supreme Commander went) and succession (no hand-picked successor, no children, Supreme Commander constantly puts himself at risk), but at least everyone knew who the leader was. Also, this behavior was kind of explained as the SC was, basically, an obsessed nut who wasn't necessarily thinking about a stable, long-lasting nation.
I remember getting so angry with the ending. I toss a tuna sandwich at my five year old cousin, not intentionally, but at her location without knowing she was sitting there. Long story short yeah the ending was heart wrenching and cruel.
redesigning the first order. Also known as putting Thrawn in command of everything
Alternatively, Pellaeon.
Anyone with enough strategic and political foresight
Also known as hiring writers who gave a shit about the series.
It should have been like the Empire of The Hand.
@@jaymikevillanueva1212 Given that in essence, Thrawn - to my somewhat limited Expanded Universe knowledge - built the Empire of the Hand at the behest of Palpatine, sure, but didn't use it in his campaign against the New Republic and that it remained hidden from the galaxy at large instead of participating in the power struggles among all the imperial warlords or really doing much of anything in the known galaxy until Luke stumbled upon it, and that it was implied that the EotH was founded by Thrawn in part because he wanted to protect his people, I find the idea of the Empire of the Hand being the villain that would attempt to invade the New Republic or fight Leia-led paramilitaries for an entire three consecutive movies implausible.
15:38 To be fair to Lord Vader, that was a gathering of the Moffs, so rather than subordinates, it was amongst "equals".
Really all the Moffs in that room were subordinate to Grand Moff Tarkin, and Vader demonstrated Tarkin's limited control over Vader, by complying with Tarkin's request of "Enough, release him."
Was Vader equal to the Moffs though? At that point, he was mostly just Tarkin's enforcer (Palp wasn't in the movie yet), and his motivation to choke the guy was because they made fun of the Force. Vader was just butthurt about someone's opinion, there was no grand political or strategic plan behind his attack. The Moff he choked also had made no error in their job that deserved punishment, Vader was just lashing out.
Tarkin was higher in authority over Vader. Also, Tarkin fought side by side with Anakin Skywalker in the Clone Wars
bruh that intro was a work of art damnnn. Awesome video!!
"Tarkin knew how to command respect without acting like a bully".
Tarkin: Destroys an entire Core World just because of the royal family treason, establishing a status of ''fight-or-die'' to the entire Galaxy and, eventually, inspiring the Rebel Alliance to act.
In a better world, The Templin Institute would be hired by movie makers to proof read their ideas or create their factions.
Or, you know, anyone with a brain in their head. Not to knock the Templin Institute, but seriously, these were not difficulties that were hard to spot.
Honestly they could have made something similar to the Fel Empire from Legends
That would've been great to see. Two not evil, but not-entirely-good factions tearing the galaxy apart thinking that one intends to destroy the other only for Palpatine to cackle his way back in when they are both bloody.
@@FREEK777ful yeah and it could have introduced the Chiss into the main films, since in legends the Fel Empire was heavily influenced by the Chiss, helping with the idea of its pragmatism vs the super evil Sith Eternal
(rant
"Instead Di$ney wants their own future-half of the canonical star wars while still profiting off of the books & media they label as legends. But wait, there's more: using the names of sith lords for units of Palpatine's cult but then renaming and "mystifying" the past they existed in (Revan, Andeddu, Bane, among others). Hell, they renamed Korriban to ... Morriban.")
So, basically the Empire that became good and kept the branding without keeping its ideals or anything that made it the Galactic Empire excess being ruled by an Emperor.
@@jacobberg373 well it was still morally gray because of the moffs, but because of Fel who was not evil the Fel Empire was mixed with its ideals
Sadly, I feel that the First Order was not handled correctly either. I can accept that this group could be united Imperial Remnant forces if it were like five to ten years after Endor, but forty years later with almost no signs of these guys just to reappear is weird. You made some valid points. Little things and improvements could make this concept work, though.
I like how you explain your point without feeling condescending to fans of the sequel trilogy. It feels like a proper conversation is being had.
You've earned my respect, my sub, and like.