I don't think you're the only one. It's so much easier to expose the deception of MLMs than religion because the "product" being sold is a tangible item. The psychological tactics used are exactly the same though. The more you learn about MLMs and become resistant to "recruitment" the more resistant you are to what it really is, indoctrination!
Same! If someone told me straight forward that I am in cult I would not accept it. Cognitive dissonance and all. I did not know people could be so evil, I did not know how manipulation taktics are implemented, how people are brain washed. Learinig about mlm was a beginning that gave me courage to look into my religion
“The reason you have no money is because you don’t tithe the church.” So, I was in a budgeting group to get tips and tricks for paying down the small-ish amount of debt I have since I’ve never been great with money. There were members, a lot of them actually, that lived and breathed the Dave Ramsey plan. Well, one day, a member posted their budget and was saying that they were struggling having enough for food. I looked at their plan, and said “Hey, could you exchange the $500 a month tithe for volunteer time, since time is money, or at least reduce it until you can get a steady supply of staples?” You would have thought that I asked them to sacrifice their first born or something. I was dogpiled by a bunch of them. For them, tithing was a non-negotiable even if it meant eating beans & rice or going hungry. I left the group after that and found a better one that is Dave Ramsey free. I still feel so bad for their kids, though. Having to go without because their parents are so brainwashed into giving money to the church.
NO WAY! Wow! Thank you for sharing this! It blows my mind, yet doesn't surprise me at all. Is Dave Ramsey Mormon? I ask because when I was in high school, my dad bought the book and revamped our whole family's money system. He gave all us kids a copy and made us read it out loud in the car once. I was so annoyed and never got past the 1st chapter haha
@@CultstoConsciousness I grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist and saw many very poor families refuse to accept government assistance because if they are "faithful" God will provide. Meanwhile their kids were hungry and turned to shoplifting
My family tithed. People are soo brain washed. We were told that the money we earn is not really ours and if we don't we are literally stealing from God and really bad things can happen and basicly you have no salvation because if you were saved you would understand how important it is to thith. I feel so sorry for that family but I completely understand why they would do what they did
I tried to sell product to my Mormon relatives and they would say how I was in a cult and I would just spit back how it was similar to what they were doing. Little did I know then that both were bad.
The core reason that lead me to become lds and MLM in the first place was having a narcissist mother. Having a controlling mom that forces you to shut down and be polite at any cost will help you to join other controlling relationships. So channels like this help me as well as studying narcissism. Thanks for this channel it is awesome.
That is interesting, I am not sure if I completely understand. Are you open to explaining how your mom being in amway lead to you having actual trauma?
I had a best friend who would jump from one MLM to the next. It was really hard to watch her struggle to succeed for longer than a few months before moving on to a new one. Eventually she got into a group in salt lake that would do big events and talk about different life skills. I attended one with her without doing research and realized the whole thing was another sort of MLM that constantly tries to sell their other classes to you so you will invite others to attend. I felt horrible there and sad that she couldn't see the manipulation.
Ohhh boy. I have been invited to many things like that. In fact, one of them was a zoom call and the friend who invited me even said that I in no way had to feel pressured to join. I think he knew it was coercive but also needed to show the group he was "trying" to refer people. I was immediately recognized as the "tough case to crack" and the leader of the whole zoom came into my breakout room to seal the deal. I was SOOO triggered by him and his arrogance and insensitivity to me, that I flat out told him " Look! I didn't spend 10 years deprogramming from one cult to join another. I'm all set!" haha Thanks for sharing!
I’m so glad to see this being talked about. We were in Amway and the teaching system we were in was definitely a Cult! They even mixed church services into it. You know you’re in a Cult if there is no honorable way to leave. It took years to get out and the psychological damage was real!
As an autistic woman, who struggles socially to fit in, I yearned for a community. I so desperately wanted to belong to a community that I would get roped in. Of course, I still had the social skills of a rock, so it never went anywhere. I couldn't even do the stuff they wanted me to do, because I have the social skills of a rock. And of course, when I couldn't do those things, everyone would turn their backs on me. They also wanted me to go to these stupid huge conventions with loud music and over the top energy. They were total sensory overload and when I go into sensory overload, I get ice pick migraines, melt down, and start to cry. I would inevitably escape to my hotel room where I would crawl under the blankets and hide for the rest of the day. Then they would chastise me for not sticking out the sensory hell of the auditorium. The whole thing just made me feel more like a failure because I knew there was no way I would be able to do any of those things. Every meeting, even the small ones, we would go to would trigger massive migraines and sensory hell! Last year I finally got my diagnosis and now understand why I can't handle situations like that. I am the last person that they should be recruiting, but as a female autistic I mask so people done recognize my autistic brain. Not anymore, I am trying to live my life open and completely out as an autistic person.
Hi! Wow, that sounds awful. Thank you for sharing. I can't even imagine how hard that must have been for you. I'm so glad you are doing things on your own terms now!
Dear Friend, your energy comes over the ocean to switzerland /to me like this: beautiful, courageous, expressive, very smart, full of laughter and a huge heart. People talk, give lables. Sincerely Meret
Thanks for sharing, great you recognised you're not the problem, it's the bad culture within Company business model. Bonus you know what to avoid now... no more MLM Co's It's great you have diagnosis & access to resources. In Australia we have Autism Employment Support that assists w/mentoring & recruitment(hope you do too). You remind me of my daughter who's 18. She struggles with s/anxiety, s/skills, sen/overload, not diagnosed yet. As you know girls learn to mask & overlooked -school, psych & Dr. She's isolated in room but wants to work. She decided she wants to work in a quiet place where she doesn't have to talk to people & now volunteers 1/week at non-for-profit funeral service that's kind & community based. She prefers to work in mortuary (behind the scenes) & transfers (pick-ups from morgue). It's helped with social skills, mental health & confidence. Whatever your dream job is or even if you don't know what that is yet, one day you can find the right fit for you. Even if it means thinking outside the box😁 Best wishes 👋 Sydney, Australia🇦🇺
@@ritamariekelley4077 Actually, finally getting the label "autistic" is incredibly empowering and life-affirming for late diagnosed autistics like OP and me. She was ostracized before she even knew she herself was autistic! Autism isn't accepted until autistic traits are accepted, with or without a diagnosis.
Thanks for mentioning the profit and loss statement. I got someone out (who just got in) by mentioning the high chance of losing money and offering to send her my own accounting textbooks.
I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. As a former MLM participant for many years, I can say Erin is spot on with her observations. Thank you for having her on!
How am I only just finding this collab between my two fave RUclipsrs?! This is the first time I’ve witnessed the reaction of someone finding out “the truth” about MLMs (1099 contractor, taxes etc). So fascinating! I hope at least one C2C viewer had a “lightbulb moment” watching this, and got the eff out of an MLM!
I've never done MLM however this conversation is probably fantastic for a lot of people. I think I would say that even in companies that are not MLM one can feel like they've lost parts of themselves while being a dedicated employee because that's how life goes sometimes.
my brother was in an MLM while he was in college. He was in it for about 5 years. He even became a born again Christian. Luckily he left, and is now buddhist.
My aunt (who was also my godmother) couldn't have one conversation with me without pushing Melaleuca. Over 30 years and until the day she died, she pushed. I signed up to make her happy and she just got more aggressive with the marketing. I ended up quitting the MLM and avoided her as much as possible for the last 20 years of her life. We were very close before that
Years ago I stepped briefly into amway. It was a real eye opener. Their large gatherings were like religious meetings, singing, standing up, clapping at nothing. I stayed sitting. It was so uncomfortable. I was gobsmacked by the averice. I didn't last long in it. The people I demonstrated to showed blatent disgust.
51:00 I can recall several crossroads now during my time in mlm’s. I always blamed myself for why I wasn’t where I thought I would be. I would start questioning but never gave myself time to process what I was feeling and deconstruct my thoughts before (EXACTLY like you said) I would be introduced to my next opportunity and jump right in full force thinking it would change things. It was an addiction to me. Now I am finally starting to see it for what it is.
It has happened to the best of us! I'm so happy that you can recognize the issues with their models (as erin explained). Time to put your energy into something that will actually yield success and results!
I've never been an MLM seller, though many people in my family and church were. HOWEVER, I do regret now the ways I was involved. I have a marketing background in publishing and when Facebook first started taking off and I was in college I worked with local MLM sellers to help them build their platforms and make money bringing people in. I also at one point worked for a Smart Circle location, which is kind of like an MLM but more directed towards direct sales in store but you get people to "buy" locations which is really just buying into being a manager of a new location. I worked as a recruiter. I found people looking for work and brought them in for interviews. Smart Circle does pay hourly plus commission, at least at my location they did, but they often made people do off the clock trainings, off the clock additional hours of selling to meet quotas, etc. And other locations that people were sent to ONLY paid commission which sadly was legal in that state. So many people got worked to the bone and didn't get paid but 20 hrs for 90 hrs work. As soon as I found out I left but I still feel guilty for falling for it and being a part of other people's suffering.
Wow. So glad I watched this. Erin, your story of Awakening is exactly like mine, except mine was being awakened from a religious cult. I had that same question, "what am I doing?" This is a really great interview. Love this!
I'm so happy I found this crossover of my two favorite topics♥️ It is fascinating the overlap of mlms and Mormons and if you don't already know about why there are so many MLMs in Utah, it would be a great topic to go over!
Oh boy, this one hit really close to home. I used to work for a company that wasn't technically MLM, but very much used the same manipulative and coercive tactics towards coworkers and clients alike. I left them some 14 years ago and didn't look back, but it never crossed my mind to draw a parallel to a cult. It does feel satisfying :) Thank you for the great job you are doing and spreading awareness!
Another channel led me to this one...she focuses on MLM as cults. It's a huge problem and so many of us don't realize it. Glad I failed at all of my MLM endeavors because it made me quit them all.
I remember when I was in high school and desperate for some cash before a big trip, my friend's dad (!) was trying to lure me & other friends into an MLM. He came to our house to pitch how great it all was, and I'll never forget this being the one time where my dad, the most chill person on earth, got agitated and kicked someone out of our house 😂 He basically told him, "Aren't you ashamed of yourself, a grown man trying to get these kids in on your scams"... You could just see the guy shrink and shrink right there in our kitchen 😅 We joke about it to this day
This is an interesting topic and I’m glad you covered it. I’ve seen a couple of videos covering this topic well in addition to yours. Knowing better has a lot more stats and legal information about MLMs in his.
I grew up culty (your podcast helped me realized that...my therapist accidentally asked me when I "escaped" last session when I was talking....I told him I graduated) and then my first job was an MLM 😅 thankfully, I wasn't good at religion and I wasn't good at the MLM and it didn't last long!
As someone with two autoimmune diseases as predatory as MLMS are I can't believe they would sink low enough to claim that their product can cure or even help them. My medical conditions and alot others require specific medications. Erin's very interesting and well spoken I'll check out her channel
I have never looked at MLM as a cult but as a scam. However this video puts it in so great a perspective that it is hard to deny. I'm just glad I never got involved in any of them.
I can't believe you had an MLM discussion on this channel! How awesome is that? On top of that, it's with one of my favorite anti-MLM people. Once again you give us a top-notch program with an amazing guest. I've heard past guests and seen endless commenters write about how you're such a good interviewer, and it's true. On top of being a good listener, you ask thoughtful, insightful, interesting questions that lead the interview to become a conversation - a skill that some people in the "interviewer" position (radio, TV, online media, you name it) never master in their entire career. Kudos to you. Erin Bies is always a great pick when it comes to anything MLM-related, and a huge thank you to her for having this conversation with you. That hour just flew by. Loved it!! ❤
I understand a number of MLM companies are Mormon owned and often successfully recruit Mormons. From what I have heard of Missions the hard concentrated work, recruiting and sales techniques , demanding oversight ( religious equivalent of upline) parallel a lot of the expectations in MLMs. In essence Missions seem like great induction for future MLM participation. Don't know if that happens but it seems like economic promulgation of a proselytizing technique.
I was invited to herbalife like 20 years ago in Swizerland. I knew the general info about it and already knew it was wierd bit when I got there I was like: what in the world is this? I left catholic church at 9y old so I just har flashbacks the whole time. The sheep mentality. Everyone was so nice and I thanked them and left without buying anything. I used their products like 3 years ago but bought them online just to avoid the personal contact and just bought what I wanted to try and none of the nonsense. But this is after I fell for a couple MLM's. I keep thinking to myself whatching you, Dehlin and such...: would I ever fall for a cult? I know I will never go back to the church. But I really question myself about it sometimes... would I fall for a cult (whatever it was, religious or otherwise). Being informed is the best way to avoid it so thank you for the videos.
i've been watching erin's videos for maybe a year now, and i just found your channel recently in an unrelated way through my recommended. i had no idea you did a video together, so this was so much fun to watch!
So happy to finally understand that others are also already working on this for years. We will make it. I'm sure of it. Fate is on our side. #awakening
I was in Amway in 1993….very big cult. Left within 1 year, spent so much money to look successful, including buying a new car I didn’t need & couldn’t afford. Learned my lesson the hard way, but I did 🙌🏻
OMG! I have heard that...objection to buying in: I don't have the money....this is why you need to invest. wow. I just never could tell people that. Forget that.
I didnt think i was in a cult with my background in Amway/Quixtar but after seeing it talked about on here im firmly convinced now. Thought i was stronger then that. And i never quit anything before except for Amway. Guess i was too gullible but now im glad im out of it and i dont care what anyone says it wasnt something i needed to be in.
My husband called Advocare a cult. I was so offended and thought he was not supporting me. Years later when I got that settlement check, I had to admit that he was right. LOL
One of the worst parts is that they prey on people with no financial knowledge and feed them utter garbage. I'm a bookkeeper and I've asked people in MLMs whether the "income" figures they're quoting me are revenue, gross profit or net profit and they can't even answer that because they don't know the difference. Or they tell me it's "just profit", by which they mean the amount they are selling over the cost of the stock itself without any other costs factored in and, when I push back, they trot out the "there are no overheads" line. "I'm not spending any money that I wouldn't spend if I wasn't running a business". "I don't consider spending time talking to people about something I'm passionate about to be a 'cost'." All that kind of dross. And trying to explain to them how a business and finance actually works is like talking to a brick wall suffering from a particularly bad case of the Dunning-Krueger effect. It's infuriating and sad at the same time.
Years ago, someone tried to recruit me to sell a product that was acai juice in screw-top wine bottles. In order to be sell, you HAD to purchase a case of bottles per month. I asked him how many bottles he sold last month. His response was, "It doesn't matter how many *I* sold. Our friend and family networks are different. So, the only thing that matters is how much *you* can sell." Never got a straight answer from him. I walked away. So glad I did!!!
Wow, so as my marriage was falling apart, I first tried amway, then eventually pampered chef. Neither worked. I was a mess. I did find my community and myself again, but it took so long. I’m seeing now that the mlms made it worse!
Most people who'll say "Sorry, I can't afford it right now" can in fact afford it, they just are trying to be polite in turning you down. We learned that in a marketing class lesson on why cold calls aren't productive for most companies. You're supposed to just move on from them and put them on a don't contact list.
I had a spidey sense of the manipulation that allowed me to be manipulated for a minute but prevented me from manipulating other people. So glad to fail at MLM's. lol
My mom was in a few MLMs when I was a kid. One was called Twist-Its and it was this bendy cloth hair styling thing. I had long hair so I went to shows with her to be the guinea pig. Even as a kid hearing the pitch felt icky to me. (Icky like church!) As I learned more about both religion and MLMs it became obvious how similar they were. Church is just an MLM that sells salvation and MLMs are just prosperity gospels with more capitalism and consumer waste.
Hi! Thank you for sharing your perspective. I find it so interesting that even as a kid you were able to perceive the similarities and how something felt off. I love your last sentence. So true!
@@CultstoConsciousness Thanks! My dad's family is LDS, my mom's is Catholic, and our home church was Evangelical. The belief and spirituality wasn't ever really my issue with any of them, it was the obvious PITCH! I like that deconstructing from MLMs is helping people deconstruct from high demand religion, because really all you have to learn is how to recognize when you're being "sold" to.
When you mentioned the MLM suggests divorce if your partner isn’t on board, in my case my SPOUSE threatened me that he’d leave me if I got involved with this MLM (Amway)
The intro...wow. I remember going to Advocare national meetings and they had church service on the Sunday morning of the event. WTH!? Eventually, the company was sued for being a pyramid scheme in particular with my upline! lol I got a cool $1k as a result of the settlement.
MLM stands for "Multi Level Marketing". It's basically a pyramid scheme if you know what that is. It's companies like monat, Avon, young living,Beachbody etc etc. It's basically that most people in the company makes little to no money (or worse,loses money) no matter how long they're in it while the ones at the top (pretty much only those who got in as the company first formed or those who are influencers) are those who make pretty much all the money. While those with "regular" jobs get paid an hourly wage you're guaranteed to get meanwhile those in mlms do not if that makes sense
When I was still a Mormon, I moved into a new ward and someone in my new ward sent me a friend invite, I thought l, “How cool, I wanted to get to know this lady.” No sooner had I accepted her friend request than she sent me an invite to some multilevel party. Ew. I immediately unfriended her. In that same ward the Relief Society President invited me to a multilevel makeup party - which I actually found insulting and extremely inappropriate. There have been some multilevel products I really believe in but I’ve always sworn to never do that to my friends. I had 2 different women in my ward also try to get me into Primerica (an insurance sales multilevel). They both started with “I have a new job in sales and I need to practice my pitch, will you help me?” I immediately thought “I smell a pyramid scheme.” And replied “Sorry, I don’t have time.” Happens sooo much in the church!!
Hi Emily! Oh wow. That is a VERY shady way to get someone involved. Asking you to help with their pitch! Since I got out pretty young, I never dealt with a lot of the mlm pressures, but I'm finding out they are VERY prevalent in the church as you mentioned. Thanks for sharing!
This MLM sounds so much Landmark Forum. I know technically Landmark Forum isn’t a MLM but Landmark really, really, really pressures people to bring in friends and family to signup for Landmark. They also have people who have been through Landmark to volunteer to clean up, set up, register people, etc. they charge money but I am not sure who gets the money. Landmark also has the “lingo.”
Ahhh yes. I had a friend reluctantly ask me to go to their zoom recruitment once. He felt like he had to. I agreed because he’s a good friend. It was so culty and I was extremely triggered by the leader who personally came into my zoom room to try and convince me. So manipulative. I was very rude when he was so confronting and awful. I had a LOT of things to say about him to my friend who completely agreed and apologized for putting me in that situation
@@CultstoConsciousnessEXACTLY! Landmark insists they are not a cult but they certainly operate and manipulate people like they are one. I will admit that they do offer some great advice and ideas but so does Mormonism, IBLP, and all the other cults. Landmark has been banned in some European country because it has been labeled a cult.
It's not just Mormonism, American Evangelical Christianity is rife with this sort of cult mindsets, and are common targets of MLMs. Especially the Prosperity Gospel cult my parents have been involved in most of my life. I watched them throw so much money away on MLM after MLM, starting with Avon and Shaklee back in the '70s.
My ex-wife was a victim of both an MLM and a high demand religion, and they both used the same tactic. They pressure you into a situation where you make emotional decisions instead of logical ones. "You will lose out if you don’t sign up now." is a good example. Same thing with the church she belonged to. For her tithe( which was both of our income) they didn’t ask for 10% of what she made, but 10% of what she wanted to make. Total brain washing.
@Cults to Consciousness That's prosperity gospel for you. I once asked Lds missionaries why God needed money to run things. Are we going to be using money in heaven? Speaking of Prosperity, I remember Jesus was once upset with money changers and merchants doing business outside the temple and chased them away. Strange irony is in Salt Lake, you literally have a mall outside the temple doing all sorts of business. What would Jesus think about that?
Listening to this I am now thinking about Girl Scouts and how such little money actual go to the girl and the troop. I am not business savvy but I wish I could teach actual business to the girls and raise real money for activities.
Ok so my whole life I’ve avoided MLM’s and different “culty” religions my friends would invite me to and the whole time I thought there was something wrong with me. I always got like a weird feeling about different aspects of those things. Especially like timeshares. Even as a child I’d pull my parents away from those people. I thought I was just antisocial this whole time or a non joiner. I even felt a little bad sometimes. I’m feeling way better about myself now. There’s a reason all that stuff gave me a creepy feeling. Ha ha… I figured it out. I’m an introvert. 😂
I’ve joined many MLM’s. I’ve decided that some MLMs have great products. I will be a customer or a promoter only for the purpose of getting the products cheaper. I figure that I’m helping someone but not hurting anyone by being a customer.
Most MLM products are grossly overpriced for the quality you're getting. The business model alone builds a huge markup into the price of the products because of everyone in the upline who has to be paid on each purchase. If you do a little bit of research you could probably find better quality, more ethical products for the same price, or less expensive products with the same or better results.
I can understand that! I have done that before as well. I also think @aawillma might be onto something too. However, I will be the first to say I really enjoyed the melaluca products haha
Scary but I'm not surprised, I fell into certain companies that tried to mind wash their employees. Then one company started to take extra money per month from our customers. It ruined so many peoples Christmas. I ended up calling the police and fraud team. That took our top boss to court. He ended up going to jail. We all lost our jobs. But to be honest with you, I did the right thing. I know many of employees hate me. However I feel I was protecting the public from this awful company. Xx
The Team was a religious pyramid scheme who told me and my husband we needed it because we were poor, and preyed on my wanting my husband to be around men of God. We didn't last long
As a 18 year old college kid I got introduced to ACN by my Mormon hs friend. I didn’t want to do it but was too nice to say no or stand up so I paid $300 and the whole time I just wanted to back out and get my money back. I shoulda trusted my guy but I was just a young and naive 18 year old.
When I was in college and at a Mary Kay meeting I heard my director talk about her daughter's crow's feet and use the phrase "when it's happening to someone you love!" about wrinkles. Wrinkles. Holee shit I'm in a cult ..
@@CultstoConsciousness yep. And I wasn't raised in church, wandered into an Episcopal church at fifteen, the fools baptized me and that was it. Been there ever since, so I don't/didn't have a frame of reference for a high control religion, because you know, shepherding episcopalians is frequently compared to herding cats for a reason. I was pretty suspicious from the get go but that clinched it. Hard.
Thank you so much for having me! Loved chatting with you! Don’t join an MLM, guys! ❤
Of course! It was a fun and enlightening conversation!
Realizing the cultiness of MLM's is actually the thing that eventually sent me to my road of leaving mormonism.
Oh wow! So interesting!
I don't think you're the only one. It's so much easier to expose the deception of MLMs than religion because the "product" being sold is a tangible item. The psychological tactics used are exactly the same though. The more you learn about MLMs and become resistant to "recruitment" the more resistant you are to what it really is, indoctrination!
Me too! I realized that the mlm cult was better then Mormonism and then it became controlling and I saw leaving everything was even better.
Same! If someone told me straight forward that I am in cult I would not accept it. Cognitive dissonance and all. I did not know people could be so evil, I did not know how manipulation taktics are implemented, how people are brain washed. Learinig about mlm was a beginning that gave me courage to look into my religion
This is also true of Drew, RUclips channel Genetically Modified Skeptic.
MLMs are so common within Mormonism that some people joke MLM means "Mormons Losing Money"
Never heard that but have heard JWs and LDS compared to Amway....
Lmao I never heard about that before!
😂😂😂 sad but kinda true
“The reason you have no money is because you don’t tithe the church.”
So, I was in a budgeting group to get tips and tricks for paying down the small-ish amount of debt I have since I’ve never been great with money.
There were members, a lot of them actually, that lived and breathed the Dave Ramsey plan. Well, one day, a member posted their budget and was saying that they were struggling having enough for food. I looked at their plan, and said “Hey, could you exchange the $500 a month tithe for volunteer time, since time is money, or at least reduce it until you can get a steady supply of staples?”
You would have thought that I asked them to sacrifice their first born or something. I was dogpiled by a bunch of them. For them, tithing was a non-negotiable even if it meant eating beans & rice or going hungry.
I left the group after that and found a better one that is Dave Ramsey free. I still feel so bad for their kids, though. Having to go without because their parents are so brainwashed into giving money to the church.
NO WAY! Wow! Thank you for sharing this! It blows my mind, yet doesn't surprise me at all. Is Dave Ramsey Mormon? I ask because when I was in high school, my dad bought the book and revamped our whole family's money system. He gave all us kids a copy and made us read it out loud in the car once. I was so annoyed and never got past the 1st chapter haha
@@CultstoConsciousness - He’s not Mormon, but he his an extreme fundamentalist Christian.
@@CultstoConsciousness I grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist and saw many very poor families refuse to accept government assistance because if they are "faithful" God will provide. Meanwhile their kids were hungry and turned to shoplifting
@CultstoConsciousness that's crazy I was raised on that book as well (also ex-mo)
My family tithed. People are soo brain washed. We were told that the money we earn is not really ours and if we don't we are literally stealing from God and really bad things can happen and basicly you have no salvation because if you were saved you would understand how important it is to thith. I feel so sorry for that family but I completely understand why they would do what they did
I tried to sell product to my Mormon relatives and they would say how I was in a cult and I would just spit back how it was similar to what they were doing. Little did I know then that both were bad.
it's crazy how so many different groups use similar tactics
For sure!
The core reason that lead me to become lds and MLM in the first place was having a narcissist mother. Having a controlling mom that forces you to shut down and be polite at any cost will help you to join other controlling relationships. So channels like this help me as well as studying narcissism. Thanks for this channel it is awesome.
Hi Linda! Thanks for sharing! I’m happy it can be helpful 😁🙏
My mom went into Amway for generational wealth and all we got was this stupid generational trauma
😩That is so evil. Desperate people in need of help beeig so used. I'm really sorry
That is horrible! I'm so sorry!
But also I cackled because of how you phrased it, so thank you for that! 😂💀
Ex-Am in the house! And I'm sorry you experienced the horrible effects of an organization like that but I can sympathize for sure.
That is interesting, I am not sure if I completely understand. Are you open to explaining how your mom being in amway lead to you having actual trauma?
I had a best friend who would jump from one MLM to the next. It was really hard to watch her struggle to succeed for longer than a few months before moving on to a new one. Eventually she got into a group in salt lake that would do big events and talk about different life skills. I attended one with her without doing research and realized the whole thing was another sort of MLM that constantly tries to sell their other classes to you so you will invite others to attend. I felt horrible there and sad that she couldn't see the manipulation.
Ohhh boy. I have been invited to many things like that. In fact, one of them was a zoom call and the friend who invited me even said that I in no way had to feel pressured to join. I think he knew it was coercive but also needed to show the group he was "trying" to refer people. I was immediately recognized as the "tough case to crack" and the leader of the whole zoom came into my breakout room to seal the deal. I was SOOO triggered by him and his arrogance and insensitivity to me, that I flat out told him " Look! I didn't spend 10 years deprogramming from one cult to join another. I'm all set!" haha Thanks for sharing!
I’m so glad to see this being talked about. We were in Amway and the teaching system we were in was definitely a Cult! They even mixed church services into it.
You know you’re in a Cult if there is no honorable way to leave. It took years to get out and the psychological damage was real!
As an autistic woman, who struggles socially to fit in, I yearned for a community. I so desperately wanted to belong to a community that I would get roped in. Of course, I still had the social skills of a rock, so it never went anywhere. I couldn't even do the stuff they wanted me to do, because I have the social skills of a rock. And of course, when I couldn't do those things, everyone would turn their backs on me. They also wanted me to go to these stupid huge conventions with loud music and over the top energy. They were total sensory overload and when I go into sensory overload, I get ice pick migraines, melt down, and start to cry. I would inevitably escape to my hotel room where I would crawl under the blankets and hide for the rest of the day. Then they would chastise me for not sticking out the sensory hell of the auditorium. The whole thing just made me feel more like a failure because I knew there was no way I would be able to do any of those things. Every meeting, even the small ones, we would go to would trigger massive migraines and sensory hell! Last year I finally got my diagnosis and now understand why I can't handle situations like that. I am the last person that they should be recruiting, but as a female autistic I mask so people done recognize my autistic brain. Not anymore, I am trying to live my life open and completely out as an autistic person.
Hi! Wow, that sounds awful. Thank you for sharing. I can't even imagine how hard that must have been for you. I'm so glad you are doing things on your own terms now!
So sorry you were victimized by this. Believe in yourself. You have special insight and abilities. You are much more than the label, "autistic."❤🩹
Dear Friend,
your energy comes over the ocean to switzerland /to me like this:
beautiful, courageous, expressive, very smart, full of laughter and a huge heart.
People talk, give lables.
Sincerely Meret
Thanks for sharing, great you recognised you're not the problem, it's the bad culture within Company business model. Bonus you know what to avoid now... no more MLM Co's
It's great you have diagnosis & access to resources. In Australia we have Autism Employment Support that assists w/mentoring & recruitment(hope you do too). You remind me of my daughter who's 18. She struggles with s/anxiety, s/skills, sen/overload, not diagnosed yet. As you know girls learn to mask & overlooked -school, psych & Dr. She's isolated in room but wants to work. She decided she wants to work in a quiet place where she doesn't have to talk to people & now volunteers 1/week at non-for-profit funeral service that's kind & community based. She prefers to work in mortuary (behind the scenes) & transfers (pick-ups from morgue). It's helped with social skills, mental health & confidence. Whatever your dream job is or even if you don't know what that is yet, one day you can find the right fit for you. Even if it means thinking outside the box😁
Best wishes 👋 Sydney, Australia🇦🇺
@@ritamariekelley4077 Actually, finally getting the label "autistic" is incredibly empowering and life-affirming for late diagnosed autistics like OP and me. She was ostracized before she even knew she herself was autistic! Autism isn't accepted until autistic traits are accepted, with or without a diagnosis.
Thanks for mentioning the profit and loss statement. I got someone out (who just got in) by mentioning the high chance of losing money and offering to send her my own accounting textbooks.
I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. As a former MLM participant for many years, I can say Erin is spot on with her observations. Thank you for having her on!
I’m not surprised to learn all Erin shared. I’ve been in MLM businesses in the past and it was NEVER worth my time/effort.
How am I only just finding this collab between my two fave RUclipsrs?!
This is the first time I’ve witnessed the reaction of someone finding out “the truth” about MLMs (1099 contractor, taxes etc). So fascinating! I hope at least one C2C viewer had a “lightbulb moment” watching this, and got the eff out of an MLM!
Hi! Glad to hear you enjoyed it!! Yes I was definitely shocked with some things
I've never done MLM however this conversation is probably fantastic for a lot of people. I think I would say that even in companies that are not MLM one can feel like they've lost parts of themselves while being a dedicated employee because that's how life goes sometimes.
This is a sentence that just kills me:”I am making so much money that my husband is going to be able to quit his job soon!” Such deception!
my brother was in an MLM while he was in college. He was in it for about 5 years. He even became a born again Christian. Luckily he left, and is now buddhist.
When she said she wanted to guess what the mlmer said and started out with "HEY GUURRRLL" I lost it 😂 this episode is a treat!
My aunt (who was also my godmother) couldn't have one conversation with me without pushing Melaleuca. Over 30 years and until the day she died, she pushed. I signed up to make her happy and she just got more aggressive with the marketing. I ended up quitting the MLM and avoided her as much as possible for the last 20 years of her life. We were very close before that
Years ago I stepped briefly into amway. It was a real eye opener. Their large gatherings were like religious meetings, singing, standing up, clapping at nothing. I stayed sitting. It was so uncomfortable. I was gobsmacked by the averice. I didn't last long in it. The people I demonstrated to showed blatent disgust.
51:00 I can recall several crossroads now during my time in mlm’s. I always blamed myself for why I wasn’t where I thought I would be. I would start questioning but never gave myself time to process what I was feeling and deconstruct my thoughts before (EXACTLY like you said) I would be introduced to my next opportunity and jump right in full force thinking it would change things. It was an addiction to me. Now I am finally starting to see it for what it is.
It has happened to the best of us! I'm so happy that you can recognize the issues with their models (as erin explained). Time to put your energy into something that will actually yield success and results!
I've never been an MLM seller, though many people in my family and church were. HOWEVER, I do regret now the ways I was involved. I have a marketing background in publishing and when Facebook first started taking off and I was in college I worked with local MLM sellers to help them build their platforms and make money bringing people in. I also at one point worked for a Smart Circle location, which is kind of like an MLM but more directed towards direct sales in store but you get people to "buy" locations which is really just buying into being a manager of a new location. I worked as a recruiter. I found people looking for work and brought them in for interviews. Smart Circle does pay hourly plus commission, at least at my location they did, but they often made people do off the clock trainings, off the clock additional hours of selling to meet quotas, etc. And other locations that people were sent to ONLY paid commission which sadly was legal in that state. So many people got worked to the bone and didn't get paid but 20 hrs for 90 hrs work. As soon as I found out I left but I still feel guilty for falling for it and being a part of other people's suffering.
That voice at 5:25 😂
I was also part of Prepaid Legal. I've got some MLM stories to tell myself.
Wow. So glad I watched this. Erin, your story of Awakening is exactly like mine, except mine was being awakened from a religious cult. I had that same question, "what am I doing?" This is a really great interview. Love this!
That’s amazing and thank you so much!
Thank you for sharing, Asha! Having that awareness is not an easy thing. Congrats on waking up and moving on from the control!
I'm so happy I found this crossover of my two favorite topics♥️ It is fascinating the overlap of mlms and Mormons and if you don't already know about why there are so many MLMs in Utah, it would be a great topic to go over!
i've been following Erin for a while now and just discovered your channel and this collaboration is everything. 🥰
Aww yay! So happy to hear that! Welcome to C2C!
Oh boy, this one hit really close to home. I used to work for a company that wasn't technically MLM, but very much used the same manipulative and coercive tactics towards coworkers and clients alike. I left them some 14 years ago and didn't look back, but it never crossed my mind to draw a parallel to a cult. It does feel satisfying :)
Thank you for the great job you are doing and spreading awareness!
Another channel led me to this one...she focuses on MLM as cults. It's a huge problem and so many of us don't realize it. Glad I failed at all of my MLM endeavors because it made me quit them all.
I remember when I was in high school and desperate for some cash before a big trip, my friend's dad (!) was trying to lure me & other friends into an MLM. He came to our house to pitch how great it all was, and I'll never forget this being the one time where my dad, the most chill person on earth, got agitated and kicked someone out of our house 😂 He basically told him, "Aren't you ashamed of yourself, a grown man trying to get these kids in on your scams"... You could just see the guy shrink and shrink right there in our kitchen 😅 We joke about it to this day
I've been following C2C for a few months and Erin for a couple years. So happy the almighty algorithm finally recommended this to me!!!
Wooo! Love it!
This is an interesting topic and I’m glad you covered it. I’ve seen a couple of videos covering this topic well in addition to yours. Knowing better has a lot more stats and legal information about MLMs in his.
I grew up culty (your podcast helped me realized that...my therapist accidentally asked me when I "escaped" last session when I was talking....I told him I graduated) and then my first job was an MLM 😅 thankfully, I wasn't good at religion and I wasn't good at the MLM and it didn't last long!
As someone with two autoimmune diseases as predatory as MLMS are I can't believe they would sink low enough to claim that their product can cure or even help them. My medical conditions and alot others require specific medications. Erin's very interesting and well spoken I'll check out her channel
I agree! So awful. She’s great!
I have never looked at MLM as a cult but as a scam. However this video puts it in so great a perspective that it is hard to deny. I'm just glad I never got involved in any of them.
Glad to see this cross over. Erin should collab outside of the anti mlm environment more often.
The crossover I didn't know would ever happen? OMG
😁🥰 gotta keep people on their toes! Lol
I can't believe you had an MLM discussion on this channel! How awesome is that? On top of that, it's with one of my favorite anti-MLM people. Once again you give us a top-notch program with an amazing guest. I've heard past guests and seen endless commenters write about how you're such a good interviewer, and it's true. On top of being a good listener, you ask thoughtful, insightful, interesting questions that lead the interview to become a conversation - a skill that some people in the "interviewer" position (radio, TV, online media, you name it) never master in their entire career. Kudos to you. Erin Bies is always a great pick when it comes to anything MLM-related, and a huge thank you to her for having this conversation with you. That hour just flew by. Loved it!! ❤
Hilary! You’re so sweet! You made my whole week with this thoughtful comment. Thank you so much. 🥰🙏 Erin is awesome!
YES, ERIN! Hiding being proprietary blends. That's some bs!
Two of my favourite content talking about this together is awesome ❤❤❤ I'm so proud of you both 💜
THE CROSSOVER I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!!!
It’s been here waiting for YOU! 😜
@@CultstoConsciousness just binged all your videos! Your story is amazing!
This video is on point! Please keep up making connections between cults and MLMs.
Found your channel since I subscribe to Erin’s channel. Thanks for doing this! I love this content. Subscribed!
Thanks, Jennifer!! Happy to have you here!
I had no idea this crossover happened!! Love you both! Great info, great video. Thank you both for your work!
I understand a number of MLM companies are Mormon owned and often successfully recruit Mormons. From what I have heard of Missions the hard concentrated work, recruiting and sales techniques , demanding oversight ( religious equivalent of upline) parallel a lot of the expectations in MLMs. In essence Missions seem like great induction for future MLM participation. Don't know if that happens but it seems like economic promulgation of a proselytizing technique.
I was invited to herbalife like 20 years ago in Swizerland. I knew the general info about it and already knew it was wierd bit when I got there I was like: what in the world is this?
I left catholic church at 9y old so I just har flashbacks the whole time. The sheep mentality. Everyone was so nice and I thanked them and left without buying anything.
I used their products like 3 years ago but bought them online just to avoid the personal contact and just bought what I wanted to try and none of the nonsense.
But this is after I fell for a couple MLM's.
I keep thinking to myself whatching you, Dehlin and such...: would I ever fall for a cult? I know I will never go back to the church. But I really question myself about it sometimes... would I fall for a cult (whatever it was, religious or otherwise).
Being informed is the best way to avoid it so thank you for the videos.
i've been watching erin's videos for maybe a year now, and i just found your channel recently in an unrelated way through my recommended. i had no idea you did a video together, so this was so much fun to watch!
Oh that’s great! Welcome to C2C! Erin is great!
So happy to finally understand that others are also already working on this for years. We will make it. I'm sure of it. Fate is on our side. #awakening
I was in Amway in 1993….very big cult. Left within 1 year, spent so much money to look successful, including buying a new car I didn’t need & couldn’t afford. Learned my lesson the hard way, but I did 🙌🏻
OMG! I have heard that...objection to buying in: I don't have the money....this is why you need to invest. wow. I just never could tell people that. Forget that.
I didnt think i was in a cult with my background in Amway/Quixtar but after seeing it talked about on here im firmly convinced now. Thought i was stronger then that. And i never quit anything before except for Amway. Guess i was too gullible but now im glad im out of it and i dont care what anyone says it wasnt something i needed to be in.
My husband called Advocare a cult. I was so offended and thought he was not supporting me. Years later when I got that settlement check, I had to admit that he was right. LOL
One of the worst parts is that they prey on people with no financial knowledge and feed them utter garbage. I'm a bookkeeper and I've asked people in MLMs whether the "income" figures they're quoting me are revenue, gross profit or net profit and they can't even answer that because they don't know the difference. Or they tell me it's "just profit", by which they mean the amount they are selling over the cost of the stock itself without any other costs factored in and, when I push back, they trot out the "there are no overheads" line. "I'm not spending any money that I wouldn't spend if I wasn't running a business". "I don't consider spending time talking to people about something I'm passionate about to be a 'cost'." All that kind of dross. And trying to explain to them how a business and finance actually works is like talking to a brick wall suffering from a particularly bad case of the Dunning-Krueger effect. It's infuriating and sad at the same time.
Years ago, someone tried to recruit me to sell a product that was acai juice in screw-top wine bottles. In order to be sell, you HAD to purchase a case of bottles per month. I asked him how many bottles he sold last month. His response was, "It doesn't matter how many *I* sold. Our friend and family networks are different. So, the only thing that matters is how much *you* can sell." Never got a straight answer from him. I walked away. So glad I did!!!
Dodged a bullet!
You hide from everything and everyone though.
53:00 My former organization would perform baptisms in airbnb pools during team retreats too.
No Way!!!
Wow, so as my marriage was falling apart, I first tried amway, then eventually pampered chef. Neither worked. I was a mess. I did find my community and myself again, but it took so long. I’m seeing now that the mlms made it worse!
Most people who'll say "Sorry, I can't afford it right now" can in fact afford it, they just are trying to be polite in turning you down. We learned that in a marketing class lesson on why cold calls aren't productive for most companies. You're supposed to just move on from them and put them on a don't contact list.
I had a spidey sense of the manipulation that allowed me to be manipulated for a minute but prevented me from manipulating other people. So glad to fail at MLM's. lol
This is such a good video, it deserves more publicity.
I have a family member that has risen through the rank of a MLM, the distrution to the extended family was so hard and sad for us.
My mom was in a few MLMs when I was a kid. One was called Twist-Its and it was this bendy cloth hair styling thing. I had long hair so I went to shows with her to be the guinea pig. Even as a kid hearing the pitch felt icky to me. (Icky like church!) As I learned more about both religion and MLMs it became obvious how similar they were. Church is just an MLM that sells salvation and MLMs are just prosperity gospels with more capitalism and consumer waste.
Hi! Thank you for sharing your perspective. I find it so interesting that even as a kid you were able to perceive the similarities and how something felt off. I love your last sentence. So true!
@@CultstoConsciousness Thanks! My dad's family is LDS, my mom's is Catholic, and our home church was Evangelical. The belief and spirituality wasn't ever really my issue with any of them, it was the obvious PITCH! I like that deconstructing from MLMs is helping people deconstruct from high demand religion, because really all you have to learn is how to recognize when you're being "sold" to.
@@aawillma exactly!
That peasant blouse has given me life. I was deceased and now am risen. Dang girl. Might have to get my behind back in the sewing room
Love Erin! ❤️ Such great information here!
She’s awesome!
When you mentioned the MLM suggests divorce if your partner isn’t on board, in my case my SPOUSE threatened me that he’d leave me if I got involved with this MLM (Amway)
The intro...wow. I remember going to Advocare national meetings and they had church service on the Sunday morning of the event. WTH!? Eventually, the company was sued for being a pyramid scheme in particular with my upline! lol I got a cool $1k as a result of the settlement.
Shelise AND Erin?! be still my heart!!
😁🙌
how important this is!
I pictured red yarn too. Maybe it is because what unravels our ball of yard is little red flags.
how did i just notice you have a video with erin i have been binge watching for ages
Oh been going around asking myself what's an MLM? Thanks again!
MLM stands for "Multi Level Marketing". It's basically a pyramid scheme if you know what that is. It's companies like monat, Avon, young living,Beachbody etc etc. It's basically that most people in the company makes little to no money (or worse,loses money) no matter how long they're in it while the ones at the top (pretty much only those who got in as the company first formed or those who are influencers) are those who make pretty much all the money. While those with "regular" jobs get paid an hourly wage you're guaranteed to get meanwhile those in mlms do not if that makes sense
When I was still a Mormon, I moved into a new ward and someone in my new ward sent me a friend invite, I thought l, “How cool, I wanted to get to know this lady.” No sooner had I accepted her friend request than she sent me an invite to some multilevel party. Ew. I immediately unfriended her. In that same ward the Relief Society President invited me to a multilevel makeup party - which I actually found insulting and extremely inappropriate. There have been some multilevel products I really believe in but I’ve always sworn to never do that to my friends. I had 2 different women in my ward also try to get me into Primerica (an insurance sales multilevel). They both started with “I have a new job in sales and I need to practice my pitch, will you help me?” I immediately thought “I smell a pyramid scheme.” And replied “Sorry, I don’t have time.” Happens sooo much in the church!!
Hi Emily! Oh wow. That is a VERY shady way to get someone involved. Asking you to help with their pitch! Since I got out pretty young, I never dealt with a lot of the mlm pressures, but I'm finding out they are VERY prevalent in the church as you mentioned. Thanks for sharing!
@@CultstoConsciousness Left you a dm on FB too
This MLM sounds so much Landmark Forum. I know technically Landmark Forum isn’t a MLM but Landmark really, really, really pressures people to bring in friends and family to signup for Landmark. They also have people who have been through Landmark to volunteer to clean up, set up, register people, etc. they charge money but I am not sure who gets the money. Landmark also has the “lingo.”
Ahhh yes. I had a friend reluctantly ask me to go to their zoom recruitment once. He felt like he had to. I agreed because he’s a good friend. It was so culty and I was extremely triggered by the leader who personally came into my zoom room to try and convince me. So manipulative. I was very rude when he was so confronting and awful. I had a LOT of things to say about him to my friend who completely agreed and apologized for putting me in that situation
@@CultstoConsciousnessEXACTLY! Landmark insists they are not a cult but they certainly operate and manipulate people like they are one. I will admit that they do offer some great advice and ideas but so does Mormonism, IBLP, and all the other cults. Landmark has been banned in some European country because it has been labeled a cult.
Self help groups & now the latest MLMs are frequently promoted under “coaching.” It’s same shit, different gig.
@@lillianbowles9902 exactly
I'm curious. The cruise that was mentioned - was that a World Ventures trip?
OMG the BLUSH at like 35:00😂😂😂😂😂😂
We might just be living inside a giant pyramid scheme ... dead end dream machine 😉 Great chat ladies , thank you.
It's not just Mormonism, American Evangelical Christianity is rife with this sort of cult mindsets, and are common targets of MLMs. Especially the Prosperity Gospel cult my parents have been involved in most of my life. I watched them throw so much money away on MLM after MLM, starting with Avon and Shaklee back in the '70s.
My ex-wife was a victim of both an MLM and a high demand religion, and they both used the same tactic. They pressure you into a situation where you make emotional decisions instead of logical ones. "You will lose out if you don’t sign up now." is a good example.
Same thing with the church she belonged to. For her tithe( which was both of our income) they didn’t ask for 10% of what she made, but 10% of what she wanted to make. Total brain washing.
wow! 10 percent of what she wanted to make?! That is insane!
@Cults to Consciousness That's prosperity gospel for you. I once asked Lds missionaries why God needed money to run things. Are we going to be using money in heaven?
Speaking of Prosperity, I remember Jesus was once upset with money changers and merchants doing business outside the temple and chased them away.
Strange irony is in Salt Lake, you literally have a mall outside the temple doing all sorts of business. What would Jesus think about that?
Exactly! 1099 for trips end up costing you more money than you make. MLM’s are cults, full stop.
@6:00 .. lol . I went to a "party" like that, I was 1 of like, 5 people there, I was out in like, 30 minutes
Didn't even know Doterra was MLM but for some reason I avoided it so glad I did
Shelise you have style. You and your Mom were great! Just found your podcast about a month ago. Thanks for your good work!!!!!
Aww that makes me so happy. Thank you so much! 🥰🙌
I worked for Pure Romance😂 And yes everything she's saying is 1000% accurate.
Listening to this I am now thinking about Girl Scouts and how such little money actual go to the girl and the troop. I am not business savvy but I wish I could teach actual business to the girls and raise real money for activities.
Great point!
Love Erin!
If they say it's not a pyramid scheme. It's a pyramid scheme.
Great collab ladies!
Thank you, Nicole!❤️
Ok so my whole life I’ve avoided MLM’s and different “culty” religions my friends would invite me to and the whole time I thought there was something wrong with me. I always got like a weird feeling about different aspects of those things. Especially like timeshares. Even as a child I’d pull my parents away from those people. I thought I was just antisocial this whole time or a non joiner. I even felt a little bad sometimes. I’m feeling way better about myself now. There’s a reason all that stuff gave me a creepy feeling.
Ha ha… I figured it out. I’m an introvert. 😂
Excellent video. I learned so much. Thank you.
Thank you, Jacki! 🥰
I’ve joined many MLM’s. I’ve decided that some MLMs have great products. I will be a customer or a promoter only for the purpose of getting the products cheaper. I figure that I’m helping someone but not hurting anyone by being a customer.
Most MLM products are grossly overpriced for the quality you're getting. The business model alone builds a huge markup into the price of the products because of everyone in the upline who has to be paid on each purchase. If you do a little bit of research you could probably find better quality, more ethical products for the same price, or less expensive products with the same or better results.
I can understand that! I have done that before as well. I also think @aawillma might be onto something too. However, I will be the first to say I really enjoyed the melaluca products haha
Scary but I'm not surprised, I fell into certain companies that tried to mind wash their employees. Then one company started to take extra money per month from our customers. It ruined so many peoples Christmas. I ended up calling the police and fraud team. That took our top boss to court. He ended up going to jail. We all lost our jobs. But to be honest with you, I did the right thing. I know many of employees hate me. However I feel I was protecting the public from this awful company. Xx
The company that did this that was illegal took millions of pounds from the public. Xx
The Team was a religious pyramid scheme who told me and my husband we needed it because we were poor, and preyed on my wanting my husband to be around men of God. We didn't last long
As a 18 year old college kid I got introduced to ACN by my Mormon hs friend. I didn’t want to do it but was too nice to say no or stand up so I paid $300 and the whole time I just wanted to back out and get my money back. I shoulda trusted my guy but I was just a young and naive 18 year old.
Interesting thank you for sharing
Now I’m a kit napper!!! I join get the kit and disappear haha!!! 😂
really enjoying your videos from a NeverMo in the UK 😊
Hi Harriet! Thanks for tuning in! 😁
This is amazing 😻
This was great.
When I was in college and at a Mary Kay meeting I heard my director talk about her daughter's crow's feet and use the phrase "when it's happening to someone you love!" about wrinkles. Wrinkles. Holee shit I'm in a cult ..
Whaaaaat?! Wow. That’s just….🤦♀️
@@CultstoConsciousness yep. And I wasn't raised in church, wandered into an Episcopal church at fifteen, the fools baptized me and that was it. Been there ever since, so I don't/didn't have a frame of reference for a high control religion, because you know, shepherding episcopalians is frequently compared to herding cats for a reason. I was pretty suspicious from the get go but that clinched it. Hard.
I imagine sociopaths and narcissists would do very well in an MLM scams
They always go for the pain points to hook you
Interesting video thank you
Great crossover!
Thank you!