Glad to find your channel. I’m 64 now, but left the Seventh-Day Adventist Church at age 23. I was born a fifth-generation Adventist in 1959. Both sides of my family were in the church. I spent 13 years in their school system. There were three traumatic life events that opened my eyes and shook me loose, and then I spent the next two decades dog-paddling upstream out in the real world. It was frightening, dangerous, and the most exciting time in my life: I discovered true education, art, theatre, film, music, sex, food, and dancing! In my 40s, I came out of the nonbeliever closet and articulated my atheism. In my 50s, I experienced a spiritual transformation that has nothing to do with man-made religions. Thanks for doing what you’re doing.
People have not started really deconstructing the Adventist and Pentecost church cults. It’s just as wild and hurtful. I experienced sexual harassment and molestation in these churches too! Mom is Pentecost dad 7th day Adventist backgrounds. I’m still swimming upstream even though I left in my mid teens and I’m in my late 20s. Im just now learning the language of what I experienced that ultimately pushed me away. I just followed my feelings without really understanding what it is that I was feeling. I just knew I wasn’t comfortable. My parents still think I’m religious, so do my friends. My new life is just believing in a higher power that’s all about love and the journey of self betterment. If God exists in the way they present him as a vengeful cruel deity then I want nothing to do with him. If God exists as a loving, nurturing God and they want and respect our free will and authenticity, then I’m here for that. I just won’t go through church or man made religions to experience God.
First of all, congrats on this interview, this is huge!!! Second of all, wow there were so many amazing tidbits in here. From Keith telling them to avoid reading bad rhetoric about him for fear of it changing their perception of him, to the conversation on how cult leaders will teach you to gaslight yourself even when they're not there in front of you. People who've never been in a cult truly don't realize that you will make yourself believe anything if you really want to. That's how cults continue today even in the Information Age.
Honestly, it's so similar as well to abusive and/or toxic relationships. I absolutely *hate* the question "why didn't you get out sooner?" Because I couldn't and he had trained me to gaslight myself to hell and back. I love that we are trying to destigmatize all this. Abuse is not the survivor's fault.
Yes! Mormon prophet and apostles (leaders) also tell you not to read anything bad about the church. The brainwashing is real, people don’t read bad stuff.
It has been almost 9 years since I walked away from my highly demanding religion. I had a dream about the leader TWO NIGHTS ago. Could not sleep the rest of the night. I think people underestimate the pain and confusion these groups inflict on the mind. I am glad the red flags are being broadcast more lately.
This is also like the new age. New Age here is a big blanket description for lots of groups I was in. They mostly train you to think about what you did to pull in or attract the experiences you’re having over seeing the evil of a person doing bad things to you. I remember that it was a sign of immaturity to think someone did anything to you. We were taught to think what are we perceiving about ourselves that is negative or not true to magnify a negative thing to happen to you. It was all about owning everything that happens to us as a way to clear out false learned things we think about ourselves in order to eventually become truly sovereign.
My daughter is going through the regret of ever buying into Mormonism right now. I can't even imagine the shame and regret of buying into a cult that is even more abusive towards its followers. I also broke from the church a few decades ago (I still supported my daughter when she wanted to be in it) but I don't feel really feel ashamed or guilty so much as feeling stupid for wasting so much time when I knew it was making me miserable.
I find so many parallels to so many things, so many religions so many cults it is so amazing to me to see this. I can see how somebody can get sucked into something like this
You are such a good interviewer, Shelise. I've enjoyed listening and watching this, my first on your channel. You're humble, curious, respectful, vulnerable. I aspire to those qualities when I talk to people. I've been following the nxivm story since the beginning, mainly because it hits so close to home because of the personal development aspect. It has made me realize that it doesn't happen to stupid or crazy people. Like you both pointed out, it can happen to anyone, especially ambitions people looking to better themselves, like myself. Humbling and eye-opening. Thank you!
Great interview. Sarah made such interesting points and arguments. For example, I’ve heard so many people from so many high control groups dismiss negative and criminal allegations by simply saying, “that’s not my experience,” but as she describes she never experienced Hitler but she recognizes the evil. I was also struck by her explanation of how the person claiming abuse gets labeled as the abuser, how damaging it is and how effective of a controlling technique. I have heard it before, maybe even from Sarah, but it really resonates here for me today as this time I felt a personal release. I think it might be because of where I am in my own healing journey, that I can feel that truth on a deeper level, but I say that to emphasize my appreciation for Sarah and Shelise and so many others constantly and consistently putting out content like this, exposing cults or high control group, the techniques used and most of all the brave stories of awakening, escaping and recovering. It is so important to see and hear stories from a variety of people from a variety of groups and to keep telling the stories on more and more channels and platforms, not only for new audiences but also for established viewers. I’m neither ex-NXIVM nor ex-Mormon, yet I and so many others benefit from your work, your willingness to repeat and also go deeper, so thank you both for sharing your stories.
Yes! So much darkness in places of “light” self-help/improvement. In yoga world, Scientology, Lifehouse International….. so many cults. Keep up the great work! ❤
When I was little I was not treated well by other children because I'm autistic and in the time that I grew up, people really didn't talk about autism. It wasn't a known thing. I remember coming home every day crying about how the other kids would bully me and my mom would literally say things like "well, if the popular kids are being mean to you then you must be doing something to provoke them. Maybe your behavior embarrassed them or maybe you were being weird again". Obviously as an adult I get that my mom was being awful and that my only likely crime against the bitchy girls was being neurodivergent but the anti victim mentality thing really hit home and made me remember that. I think that narsasistic abuse is actually a huge part of cult culture. My mom didn't lead a cult but she is a malignant narcissist who uses Jesus as a weapon and my dad is a covert narcissist that uses alcohol as a lifeline, I think cults use narsasistic abuse on a larger scale that touches a larger amount of people but I think if you look into most cult leaders past you will find that they were abusing people in this way on a smaller scale before their rise to cult leader status. Narsasisim, sociopathy and psychopathy seem to be the cult leader starter pack and loneliness and low self esteem seems to be the formula for cult membership.
@sidstovell2177 I have a great life now, I went no contact with my shitty family after I got married and focused on my husband's family. My mother in law could apply for sainthood and get it no question, and my father in law is a really good and kind man. They both treat me like the daughter they never had (all boys). Fate always gives you what you need. My in-laws are the parents I wish I had growing up, but I'm glad my husband had them instead, because they raised the perfect man for me. I couldn't imagine my life without having the privilege of loving him with my entire soul, and the shit I went through when I was young made me who I am. When you are forged in Phoenix fire, you rise from the ashes a little less breakable each time. I might as well be made of titanium and that has served me well.
“The Garden Knome” is by far the best description of Keith Raniere I’ve ever heard! 😂 I have watched “The Vow” 3 times and every other documentary on Nxivm that’s been made. I find it absolutely fascinating. I’m not one of those people who thinks that I could never join a cult especially Nxivm. I absolutely could have. Being a part of something bigger than ourselves is human nature, especially if we feel like something is missing from our lives. That’s one of the things people look for in most cults. The fact that it wasn’t a religion and was a self improvement program would have been even more enticing for me. I understand what the draw towards Keith Raniere was. I could have easily joined if it were financially possible. That being said I’m glad it wasn’t. Sarah Edmondson is clearly intelligent, beautiful and talented as are the majority of the people who were a part of Nxivm primarily DOS. For the ones who are still supporting Raniere hopefully they will find their own paths to healing. I believe Nicki Clyne and Allison Mack have finally spoken out against Nxivm. Hopefully it’s sincere. This was another great episode Shelise. I appreciate your channel.
There is a huge thing in self improvement that a person is never actually improved. That's because it's all about monetization of being stuck in the training mentality.
Thank you for your content and talking with Mrs. Edmondson. This is a big issue in the martial arts community as well. Keep up the stellar work, and thank you again.
Thank you for sharing your story.. My boyfriend lived in Halfmoon NY. We were sitting by the fire and I said come on thats crash that party.. NXIVM was having an event literally in his back yard. Thank god my boyfriend said Absolutely Not.. Had no idea they were right there that close.. Till the news broke.. Crazy
I love your videos/interviews. If you get a chance it would be interesting to see something about the Love has Won cult. They’re the ones that mummified their leader. Crazy
@@CultstoConsciousness My brother was doing his PhD in the locked LDS church library, found the truth in the pioneer journals, he approached 3 GAs about it (2 were apostles), because the “truth” that the church teaches is different than those journals. They told him to stop asking questions or be excommunicated.
It’s so much like Scientology. Both blame the victims for their own bad things that happen to them and teach them to see what they did to cause it. Also, both leaders think that they are geniuses that all other people should follow.
Not that I’ve ever ever been in any kind of cult, but the bit at 17:09 about “projecting” and whatnot really struck a chord. I had some issues with my uni housemates this past year where we were initially all quite close (or so I believed) and I felt really at ease and like I had a really solid support system, and then they all just moved on without me and it really threw me for a loop because I’d suddenly lost everything. So then I went to counselling with a uni counsellor and she basically did this to me. Told me that other people were “allowed to do what they wanted even if I felt like they were ignoring me” that it was all a me problem that I’d suddenly been abandoned and was in crisis and was not getting any support from them. She literally told me to my face that it was my fault I felt this way (and I had confronted them about it and was literally ignored despite the fact that I’m as clearly greatly distressed while telling them about how I felt). Thankfully my mom and a good family friend were instrumental in helping me deconstruct that thought process and help me see that it’s BS and that my feelings were valid. I stopped seeing the counsellor because it was just damaging instead of being helpful as it was supposed to be and thankfully I’ve managed to leave those harmful relationships behind now too. It was honestly one of the most difficult times but it was then that I started to form true friendships that I hope will last through the years. Thanks again C2C for the incredible content ❤
@@thisbeem2714 thank you very much. It still hurts to remember what happened, but I am doing much better and hopefully I can use it to build better, longer-lasting relationships in the future.
Perhaps try to reach out to Aaron of Growing Up in Scientology or ....Mike Ridner - he may be available as he is promoting his new book (which I'm reading). Another set of folks could be Growing up in Polygamy, Sam and Melissa!
14:43 And here I am confused the whole time I was watching the documentary about 1) why would he choose to name this cult after heartburn and GERD medicine and 2) how he didn’t get sued by Astra Zeneca for at least copyright infringement 🤔
This is hard for me. It wasn't a public f*** up. It was she got a conscience and tried to fix it. She left many women and men scarred with trauma for years. A f*** up is a mistake. Not this. I can say this because I had a trafficker. She was a cute woman from Scotland. Brought many women in to the organization until it was shut down by the feds. Operating as an energy working business that gave sexual blessing. It was big business.
It was really wild reading her book, I grew up in the suburbs of Albany. I even lived in Knox Woods for 2 years and then around the corner from it for about 15. I had heard of them. They bought my favorite Italian restaurant when it closed down. Of course I didn't know everything that was going on there. But it was like oh yeah that's the weird cult that bought Romano's Restaurant.
I agree with Sarah, the history of the Mexican community needs to be explore. Journalist Roberta Garza, who lives in New York City, wrote a great book: "Marcame, amo". She provides a unique perspective since she herself belongs to the Mexican upper class and knows about cult culture in Mexico.
An interview of yours popped up in my feed, from my atheist list. You are such a good interviewer; so articulate. And something I love about your speech, no inappropriate 'likes'. Thank you. Wishing you much continuing success.
@3:44 YEP! This is my NUMBER ONE PET PEEVE of Kieth and his supporters. They are making Kieth a victim. Literally refer to him as a VICTIM! Even though one of the biggest tenants of their “teachings” is that you’re never a victim and you are always “at cause”. It makes my brain wanna blow up when I hear them whining
I've always had empathy for cult victims, and my brother and I always questioned the propaganda and approach of our Church of England primary school. But I have been in two abusive relationships, well three. But one was the most severe and it is the same tactics, the same terrifying torture psychologically and otherwise. The charm, charisma... the narcissists I am 10 years+ on and still deconditioning myself. I cannot imagine going through what you have So much love to you all!
Hey you asked for suggestions for interview subjects. I have one, but don’t laugh. He might be impossible to get, but I think Prince Harry would be a good interview. I read his recent memoir Spare, and his experience is remarkably similar to cult survivor stories. Also, he talked about using psychedelics for healing himself. I kept thinking as I read the book how his story is so fitting with your show’s subject matter.
Hi! Two things. 1. I love that you believe in me enough to get Prince Harry to do an interview with me! Lol 2. I love that you thought about my channel while reading his book! I’ll have to check it out.
if you do read the book and find any interesting parallels to cult experiences, maybe you could do a book review? prolly easier than getting a hold of prince harry lol
This is a great interview, but just for a little constructive criticism it's a bit hard to follow if you're not familiar with the cult or subjects. I've heard of the cult but only really the name and the connection to an actress that I think got arrested? The conversation just kinda jumps in referring to people on a first name basis, not context added to who they are, what the cult was about, when it was active, or anything like that. Just kinda assuming we're all familiar with the background details. If that's intentional and you're trying to reach people who are already moderately informed then of course feel free to ignore this. But I'm about 20 minutes in and I don't really know what the cult did or how big it was or anything. Even just a quick two or three minute intro would help ground me in the conversation and what activities are being referenced, etc.
Paying $2700 for the 5 day class should have been the first red flag it seems to me. But once you've paid the money it's easy to see how that encourages you to stick it out for the whole 5 days, even when red flags are going off the first day. And that contributes to the entrapment, right?
Oh yay congratulations 🎉on getting this interview I love Sarah Edmonton she’s very talented I followed her story for years and both of you are very strong beautiful women thank you for sharing ur stories and for ALL U DO sending love from Canada 🇨🇦 ❤🫶🏼❤️🫶🏼❤️
@@CultstoConsciousness thank u for ur ❤️ and ur response I had to edit my comment cuz I saw I left a word out once you do that the heart disappeared 🤨 that’s kinda weird lol 😂
bit of a hot take, but I don't give a shit if people feel guilty and shine a light on what they did, they were complicit in this and deserve no forgiveness.
The first thing I would have noticed about NXIVM would have been the DOS Latin motto, Dominus Obsequious Sororium . "Obsequious" is an English adjective and "Sororium" has the wrong genitive ending. If Raniere was truly a genius and wanted to express the legitimacy of his cult he wouldn't have created such a monstrosity of pseudo-Latin. He would have written Dominus Obsequiosarum Sororum = Lord of the Obsequious Sisters. He could have also used Obsequentium (fem, gen, pl) = compliant . I have read articles and watched videos where this inscription was presented unaltered and then translated and no one has bothered to notice this. Even the New York Times and Esquire missed it. So much for precision in journalism.
I just binge watched both seasons of The Vow and omg, it’s really good!. Someone said in the comments they felt bad for Nancy, but she is quite a manipulator herself so no, I don’t feel sad for her
Another interesting interview. But in my humble opinion, I think that a lot of the former cult members also need to take some personal responsibility and ownership for what happened with them in nexium?
I need ro know the laws on what we can say publicly about an abuser. I was groomed assaulted. the police refused to take a crime report. 4 years later, im still injured. I have names and dates
First, I wanna say that I love your channel. It's super interesting. I've watched quite a few of your videos already. This was the first one where I didn't understand the cult at all though. I feel like there was not a lot of background or it wasn't explained well as an overview. I had to Google and watch another RUclips video to try to learn the basics.
Thank you for sharing that! We are actually going to be interviewing Mark Vicente who was one of the first to leave. The one who recruited Sarah. We will do better at explaining in his episode.
I really admire the incredible things you have done since you woke up. Nobody wants to be brainwashed. I think it's important to never blame victims. I think every single person in this cult was a victim of one man.
When they talked about how there are in fact false allegations made by people claiming to be victims, I felt like I needed to interject that yes they happen, but on average, out of all allegations, 8% of them were found to be completely false
But there is also the concept of DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. That’s a common tool of the narcissist and/or abuser to take the pressure off themselves and confuse others issues and their victims/s. I think a lot of what they were talking about here, not really about the “false r*pe accusations” for instance.
I don’t see a problem with coaches and spiritual gurus and I don’t think credentials necessarily mean much….however I think it’s important to maintain your own mind, to keep your eyes wide open and receive information from multiple sources so it’s way harder to just look at one person and think they know everything
Very good. Shelise should be on TV as so good. I often wonder why I never got into a cult (I have a sibling who briefly was one of the orange people etc but not in US - (Wild wild country - sannyasins). I htink it's because I always felt quite good, whole, happy, no deficiencies to fix and not going to pay money to someone else, whereas my sibling who at a leading UK university was lured into her group by her university therapist (!!!) , you can imagine what our parents thought of that, although she did graduate extremely well so the education was not compromised. She was homesick at university (I wasn't) and unhappy. So I suppose it comes down to that - they target the vulnerable or those who think they are not whole or can be made better. Therefore perhaps I am protected for having too high an option of myself (laughing as I type). Keep up the good work. I loved the Vow too. I remember in the late 60s when I was very very very small watching a black and white TV documentary showing L Ron Hubbard with my psychiatrist father - even then he and I were interested in cults and what makes people do certain things.
She said "talking shit about someone is an act of violence" . This and other things she mentioned sounds like another very popular modern cult that is thriving right now. The problem is no one's realised it's a cult yet because there isn't one specific leader but it's definitely a cult and in 20 years or so people will see that.
@@JNB520 To be fair people are calling it a cult now, thankfully. It's the only people today who say words are violence. The ones that gaslight the hell out of anyone who has even slight concerns about their ideology and call you hyperbolic names for questioning them. The ones who deny the existence of anyone who makes it out of their cult and decides to speak out but also harasses them for speaking out. It's the trans cult. And I don't mean every single trans person, I specifically mean the cult ideology around it that even most level-headed trans people do not agree with. Also they recruit through social media via brainwashing. It has all the hallmarks of a cult except for the sole leader, instead there are many leading this cult and it has completely taken over western society.
I used to be in this academy that prepares to become a civil servant in my Country. I wasn't happy with service provided and I had been quite vocal about it. The thing, it's that they made this motivational video. And at certain moment, the person started talking about instead of searching for what was wrong with our preparation outside, we should look inside. That maybe, the problem was within us and we were blaming others. I know he was saying that mainly because of me. Thankfully I saw through that bullshit, but it could have gone otherwise. Actually in other moments, it went otherwise. Anyways, It reminds me a lot of what Sarah says about "if you don't like someone maybe the problem is in you". What's interesting about this kind of manipulation is there are situations where this kind of "advices" would apply. For example, if you don't like someone because they're from a different race. Sure, that's a you problem. But that's sort of an exception. But because, those exceptions exists, they make you doubt yourself. And there's of course nothing wrong with a little bit of old good introspection, and cuestioning ourselves, but how that can be twisted into something so perverse...It's scary.
The first time I watched season 2 when Alison first met that barrel chested little dwarf KR I was stunned and it still haunts me when she said something to him about popping her cherry and he said oh my , I found his response very creepy and I believe he knew after that meeting that he could easily control her .
@@KaliPhantomit’s a pretty normal reaction to tension, actually. I’d also guess that she now realizes how stupid it all sounds, and she feels some embarrassment at not realizing how ridiculous it all was much sooner.
Interesting to hear an insider perspective on this. I'm from the Albany area in upstate New York. I remember the insane press coverage, and hearing the horrific stories coming out of the case. Have no idea why upstate New York produces all these weird religious groups (like Jehovah's Witnesses, Nexium, and even the LDS church..) I guess we're odd like that here. 😉 Love this podcast (I'm also a costumer..)
I had a similar thought when I learned that the Falun Dafa / Falun Gong people (the ones behind the Shen Yun dance shows) also are in Upstate NY. Also the Mormons as you mentioned, and the Oneida cult (who ended up making some lovely flatware!), and the Shakers (who made furniture)…. What the F is in the land or the water in upstate New York that leads to all these cults?? Makes me glad that I moved away from Rochester when I was a teenager! LOL
@@DawnDavidson I chalk it up to New York State having A LOT of space, and not much to do, besides farming. It's also easier to build religious communities in the vast amount of space, and the education level is iffy in some of the smaller towns. Plus, in the Shakers and Joseph Smith's time, the Rochester area was still considered the frontier. Why not start a religion? Nobody will bother you for the most part. Upstate is also famous for Jehovah's Witnesses being formed here.
Rochester, hey? Book of Mormon always seemed like the type of epic tales a sailor would tell, rather than it having some mill town folklore as its basis. That's interesting. Rochester🤣. California also seems to generate cults... not sure what the impetus is, or if it's correlation. Maybe places with bored upper middle class youth. IDK, tho.
You should talk with Sadie Carpenter and Garviel Harkonen from the Leaving Eden Podcast. She talks about the Independent Baptist Church and how damaging and cult like their beliefs are.
The fact that she didn't go to jail would chap my ass if I was one of the persons she recruited and is serving time in prison. Maybe she'll help those who get out of prison get back on their feet again. Maybe she can help pay to get the branding removed from their pubic area?
I have been a fan of yours and also a big fan of watching the HBO movie Nexium and I’m curious would you ever interview Bonnie, Mark Vincenti’s wife. I’ve always wanted to know what was it about her that made her realize very quickly that she was in a cult.
Yes! We have asked Bonnie and after Mark’s interview, he said that she is considering it but mostly trying to keep some distance from it all. Which is understandable.
@@CultstoConsciousness thanks for this episode. I started listening to Sarah and Nippy during lockdown. I love that you bring other Podcasters/RUclipsrs that I listen to.
Glad to find your channel. I’m 64 now, but left the Seventh-Day Adventist Church at age 23. I was born a fifth-generation Adventist in 1959. Both sides of my family were in the church. I spent 13 years in their school system. There were three traumatic life events that opened my eyes and shook me loose, and then I spent the next two decades dog-paddling upstream out in the real world. It was frightening, dangerous, and the most exciting time in my life: I discovered true education, art, theatre, film, music, sex, food, and dancing! In my 40s, I came out of the nonbeliever closet and articulated my atheism. In my 50s, I experienced a spiritual transformation that has nothing to do with man-made religions. Thanks for doing what you’re doing.
Hi! Welcome to C2C! So proud of you for finding your footing and happiness. Everything you discovered is the cream of life! 😁🙌
That's great for you!!! I'm so proud
People have not started really deconstructing the Adventist and Pentecost church cults. It’s just as wild and hurtful. I experienced sexual harassment and molestation in these churches too! Mom is Pentecost dad 7th day Adventist backgrounds. I’m still swimming upstream even though I left in my mid teens and I’m in my late 20s. Im just now learning the language of what I experienced that ultimately pushed me away. I just followed my feelings without really understanding what it is that I was feeling. I just knew I wasn’t comfortable. My parents still think I’m religious, so do my friends. My new life is just believing in a higher power that’s all about love and the journey of self betterment. If God exists in the way they present him as a vengeful cruel deity then I want nothing to do with him. If God exists as a loving, nurturing God and they want and respect our free will and authenticity, then I’m here for that. I just won’t go through church or man made religions to experience God.
“Spiritual transformation that has nothing to do with man made religion.” Love this!!
Si o
It is easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they have been fooled - Mark Twain
"You can clean up your mess without feeling shitty about yourself."
This is something I'm continually working on!
First of all, congrats on this interview, this is huge!!! Second of all, wow there were so many amazing tidbits in here. From Keith telling them to avoid reading bad rhetoric about him for fear of it changing their perception of him, to the conversation on how cult leaders will teach you to gaslight yourself even when they're not there in front of you. People who've never been in a cult truly don't realize that you will make yourself believe anything if you really want to. That's how cults continue today even in the Information Age.
Hi Sydney! Thank you so much! I love your favorite parts. 😁❤️
Honestly, it's so similar as well to abusive and/or toxic relationships. I absolutely *hate* the question "why didn't you get out sooner?" Because I couldn't and he had trained me to gaslight myself to hell and back. I love that we are trying to destigmatize all this. Abuse is not the survivor's fault.
Yes! Mormon prophet and apostles (leaders) also tell you not to read anything bad about the church. The brainwashing is real, people don’t read bad stuff.
@@delphinedelphinedelphine yes! I've heard it said that it's a cult of two.
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It has been almost 9 years since I walked away from my highly demanding religion. I had a dream about the leader TWO NIGHTS ago. Could not sleep the rest of the night. I think people underestimate the pain and confusion these groups inflict on the mind. I am glad the red flags are being broadcast more lately.
This is also like the new age. New Age here is a big blanket description for lots of groups I was in. They mostly train you to think about what you did to pull in or attract the experiences you’re having over seeing the evil of a person doing bad things to you. I remember that it was a sign of immaturity to think someone did anything to you. We were taught to think what are we perceiving about ourselves that is negative or not true to magnify a negative thing to happen to you. It was all about owning everything that happens to us as a way to clear out false learned things we think about ourselves in order to eventually become truly sovereign.
Yes, new age can get culty and harmful
Sounds like Scientology. Interesting.
My daughter is going through the regret of ever buying into Mormonism right now. I can't even imagine the shame and regret of buying into a cult that is even more abusive towards its followers. I also broke from the church a few decades ago (I still supported my daughter when she wanted to be in it) but I don't feel really feel ashamed or guilty so much as feeling stupid for wasting so much time when I knew it was making me miserable.
Great interview. I have never been in a cult but these types of interviews will help me be sure I never do. It can happen to anyone.
Wow! Seeing SO MANY parallels to Mormonism and Scientology! Thank you both for your involvement in helping people gain such a broader perspective!
And Mormon’s founder Joseph Smith being a “martyr,” the Masons killed him because of polygamy and stealing their Mason rites and creating a cult.
I find so many parallels to so many things, so many religions so many cults it is so amazing to me to see this. I can see how somebody can get sucked into something like this
They stole a lot from Scientology
You are such a good interviewer, Shelise. I've enjoyed listening and watching this, my first on your channel. You're humble, curious, respectful, vulnerable. I aspire to those qualities when I talk to people.
I've been following the nxivm story since the beginning, mainly because it hits so close to home because of the personal development aspect. It has made me realize that it doesn't happen to stupid or crazy people. Like you both pointed out, it can happen to anyone, especially ambitions people looking to better themselves, like myself. Humbling and eye-opening. Thank you!
Oh thank you so much! That means a lot. I do my best 🥰 glad you enjoyed it!
Great interview. Sarah made such interesting points and arguments. For example, I’ve heard so many people from so many high control groups dismiss negative and criminal allegations by simply saying, “that’s not my experience,” but as she describes she never experienced Hitler but she recognizes the evil.
I was also struck by her explanation of how the person claiming abuse gets labeled as the abuser, how damaging it is and how effective of a controlling technique. I have heard it before, maybe even from Sarah, but it really resonates here for me today as this time I felt a personal release. I think it might be because of where I am in my own healing journey, that I can feel that truth on a deeper level, but I say that to emphasize my appreciation for Sarah and Shelise and so many others constantly and consistently putting out content like this, exposing cults or high control group, the techniques used and most of all the brave stories of awakening, escaping and recovering. It is so important to see and hear stories from a variety of people from a variety of groups and to keep telling the stories on more and more channels and platforms, not only for new audiences but also for established viewers. I’m neither ex-NXIVM nor ex-Mormon, yet I and so many others benefit from your work, your willingness to repeat and also go deeper, so thank you both for sharing your stories.
Yes! So much darkness in places of “light” self-help/improvement.
In yoga world, Scientology, Lifehouse International….. so many cults.
Keep up the great work! ❤
Thank you, Jae! 😊
Mormonism too
What is lighthouse international?
When I was little I was not treated well by other children because I'm autistic and in the time that I grew up, people really didn't talk about autism. It wasn't a known thing. I remember coming home every day crying about how the other kids would bully me and my mom would literally say things like "well, if the popular kids are being mean to you then you must be doing something to provoke them. Maybe your behavior embarrassed them or maybe you were being weird again". Obviously as an adult I get that my mom was being awful and that my only likely crime against the bitchy girls was being neurodivergent but the anti victim mentality thing really hit home and made me remember that. I think that narsasistic abuse is actually a huge part of cult culture. My mom didn't lead a cult but she is a malignant narcissist who uses Jesus as a weapon and my dad is a covert narcissist that uses alcohol as a lifeline, I think cults use narsasistic abuse on a larger scale that touches a larger amount of people but I think if you look into most cult leaders past you will find that they were abusing people in this way on a smaller scale before their rise to cult leader status. Narsasisim, sociopathy and psychopathy seem to be the cult leader starter pack and loneliness and low self esteem seems to be the formula for cult membership.
I feel for you. Hope your future is bright.
@sidstovell2177 I have a great life now, I went no contact with my shitty family after I got married and focused on my husband's family. My mother in law could apply for sainthood and get it no question, and my father in law is a really good and kind man. They both treat me like the daughter they never had (all boys). Fate always gives you what you need. My in-laws are the parents I wish I had growing up, but I'm glad my husband had them instead, because they raised the perfect man for me. I couldn't imagine my life without having the privilege of loving him with my entire soul, and the shit I went through when I was young made me who I am. When you are forged in Phoenix fire, you rise from the ashes a little less breakable each time. I might as well be made of titanium and that has served me well.
@@allisonharranmua8193I am very happy for you.
I felt sad for Nancy too-I think as a therapist she was repentant at the damage she caused. But the sentence was justified. I hope she can recover.
I feel sorry for her too…..especially for her daughter who can never have kids but always held off waiting for Keith to make a child with her.
Just started following you and I've been following Sarah and nips pod for about a year. This is so exciting ❤ glad to see yall connect.
Great interview Shelise! Loved hearing more of Sarah's perspective!
Thanks guys! It was fun getting to know her more.
“The Garden Knome” is by far the best description of Keith Raniere I’ve ever heard! 😂 I have watched “The Vow” 3 times and every other documentary on Nxivm that’s been made. I find it absolutely fascinating. I’m not one of those people who thinks that I could never join a cult especially Nxivm. I absolutely could have. Being a part of something bigger than ourselves is human nature, especially if we feel like something is missing from our lives. That’s one of the things people look for in most cults. The fact that it wasn’t a religion and was a self improvement program would have been even more enticing for me. I understand what the draw towards Keith Raniere was. I could have easily joined if it were financially possible. That being said I’m glad it wasn’t. Sarah Edmondson is clearly intelligent, beautiful and talented as are the majority of the people who were a part of Nxivm primarily DOS. For the ones who are still supporting Raniere hopefully they will find their own paths to healing. I believe Nicki Clyne and Allison Mack have finally spoken out against Nxivm. Hopefully it’s sincere. This was another great episode Shelise. I appreciate your channel.
Great interview. I enjoyed listening to two survivors share their experiences and ways to keep an eye out for red flags in groups.
There is a huge thing in self improvement that a person is never actually improved. That's because it's all about monetization of being stuck in the training mentality.
You're both doing a great job raising awareness!
Thank you Laura!
Thank you for your content and talking with Mrs. Edmondson. This is a big issue in the martial arts community as well. Keep up the stellar work, and thank you again.
Thank you for sharing your story..
My boyfriend lived in Halfmoon NY.
We were sitting by the fire and I said come on thats crash that party.. NXIVM was having an event literally in his back yard.
Thank god my boyfriend said Absolutely Not..
Had no idea they were right there that close.. Till the news broke.. Crazy
I have to say I'm loving your channel. Just found you through A-Aron and you are a fantastic interviewer. I'm catching up.
Wow, thank you! Welcome to C2C!
I love your videos/interviews. If you get a chance it would be interesting to see something about the Love has Won cult. They’re the ones that mummified their leader. Crazy
Omg I’ve not heard of that one! 😮
they were just a group of drug addicts
Very recent. Its insane. I saw it on another channel called Lights Out.
@wldncrzy1971
Sarah I love how honest and clear you are
I really needed more to listen to at work and hadn't found a little bit culty yet- thanks! Love your show and I'm working through episodes
Thank you! Oh yeah, they have a gold mine of good stuff!
Holy cow, clicked the second I saw the title, this is huge!
Thanks Jessica! First one to comment. 💅🏻Hope you enjoyed it!
Too bad Joseph Smith wasn’t able to video his every word! It would be easy to take down Mormonism then.
Haha seriously though. However, they DID keep immaculate journals and records back then. Which are also no bueno
@@CultstoConsciousness My brother was doing his PhD in the locked LDS church library, found the truth in the pioneer journals, he approached 3 GAs about it (2 were apostles), because the “truth” that the church teaches is different than those journals. They told him to stop asking questions or be excommunicated.
It’s so much like Scientology. Both blame the victims for their own bad things that happen to them and teach them to see what they did to cause it. Also, both leaders think that they are geniuses that all other people should follow.
Exactly!!
I've noticed that true geniuses never go around saying that they're geniuses. Nor do they have flunkies doing that them. 🤷
Also, the leaders of both groups seem to like to threaten people with their seamen
Not that I’ve ever ever been in any kind of cult, but the bit at 17:09 about “projecting” and whatnot really struck a chord. I had some issues with my uni housemates this past year where we were initially all quite close (or so I believed) and I felt really at ease and like I had a really solid support system, and then they all just moved on without me and it really threw me for a loop because I’d suddenly lost everything. So then I went to counselling with a uni counsellor and she basically did this to me. Told me that other people were “allowed to do what they wanted even if I felt like they were ignoring me” that it was all a me problem that I’d suddenly been abandoned and was in crisis and was not getting any support from them. She literally told me to my face that it was my fault I felt this way (and I had confronted them about it and was literally ignored despite the fact that I’m as clearly greatly distressed while telling them about how I felt). Thankfully my mom and a good family friend were instrumental in helping me deconstruct that thought process and help me see that it’s BS and that my feelings were valid. I stopped seeing the counsellor because it was just damaging instead of being helpful as it was supposed to be and thankfully I’ve managed to leave those harmful relationships behind now too. It was honestly one of the most difficult times but it was then that I started to form true friendships that I hope will last through the years.
Thanks again C2C for the incredible content ❤
That sounds hard. I hope you are continuing to heal.
@@thisbeem2714 thank you very much. It still hurts to remember what happened, but I am doing much better and hopefully I can use it to build better, longer-lasting relationships in the future.
@@horsemadlanguagenerd453 Me too. In my experience the healing journey is a long one, but we are strong and can see it through.
@@horsemadlanguagenerd453lucky you had a supportive mother and three removed the power of the counsellor
So happy to find this episode. Everytime I listen to C to C and A Little Bit Culty, I think when are these two going to get together?
I listened to Sarah's book as soon as I learned about Nxiem (sp?l. Loved hearing her story from her voice. This was a great interview, thanks Shelise!
Thanks Natalie! Glad you enjoyed it! (Close, NXIVM)
Your channel is helping me so so much,, thank you to you and all your guests
Perhaps try to reach out to Aaron of Growing Up in Scientology or ....Mike Ridner - he may be available as he is promoting his new book (which I'm reading). Another set of folks could be Growing up in Polygamy, Sam and Melissa!
14:43 And here I am confused the whole time I was watching the documentary about 1) why would he choose to name this cult after heartburn and GERD medicine and 2) how he didn’t get sued by Astra Zeneca for at least copyright infringement 🤔
This is hard for me. It wasn't a public f*** up. It was she got a conscience and tried to fix it. She left many women and men scarred with trauma for years. A f*** up is a mistake. Not this. I can say this because I had a trafficker. She was a cute woman from Scotland. Brought many women in to the organization until it was shut down by the feds. Operating as an energy working business that gave sexual blessing. It was big business.
It was really wild reading her book, I grew up in the suburbs of Albany. I even lived in Knox Woods for 2 years and then around the corner from it for about 15. I had heard of them. They bought my favorite Italian restaurant when it closed down. Of course I didn't know everything that was going on there. But it was like oh yeah that's the weird cult that bought Romano's Restaurant.
That last line 😂
I agree with Sarah, the history of the Mexican community needs to be explore. Journalist Roberta Garza, who lives in New York City, wrote a great book: "Marcame, amo". She provides a unique perspective since she herself belongs to the Mexican upper class and knows about cult culture in Mexico.
Thank you so much for sharing your story... my " cult" was my family,.. I just wanted to say that you and your fiancé will be great parents! ❤
Sarah and Catherine Oxenberg. Catherine took it very public as part of savings her daughter.
An interview of yours popped up in my feed, from my atheist list.
You are such a good interviewer; so articulate. And something I love about your speech, no inappropriate 'likes'.
Thank you. Wishing you much continuing success.
Thank you so much! That means a lot
Thank you everyone involved because I have been saying
N 14 M for a long time
@3:44 YEP! This is my NUMBER ONE PET PEEVE of Kieth and his supporters. They are making Kieth a victim. Literally refer to him as a VICTIM! Even though one of the biggest tenants of their “teachings” is that you’re never a victim and you are always “at cause”. It makes my brain wanna blow up when I hear them whining
Saaaame
I've always had empathy for cult victims, and my brother and I always questioned the propaganda and approach of our Church of England primary school.
But I have been in two abusive relationships, well three. But one was the most severe and it is the same tactics, the same terrifying torture psychologically and otherwise.
The charm, charisma... the narcissists
I am 10 years+ on and still deconditioning myself. I cannot imagine going through what you have
So much love to you all!
Thank you for sharing. Wishing you well on your healing journey ❤️
Hey you asked for suggestions for interview subjects. I have one, but don’t laugh.
He might be impossible to get, but I think Prince Harry would be a good interview. I read his recent memoir Spare, and his experience is remarkably similar to cult survivor stories. Also, he talked about using psychedelics for healing himself. I kept thinking as I read the book how his story is so fitting with your show’s subject matter.
Hi! Two things. 1. I love that you believe in me enough to get Prince Harry to do an interview with me! Lol 2. I love that you thought about my channel while reading his book! I’ll have to check it out.
if you do read the book and find any interesting parallels to cult experiences, maybe you could do a book review? prolly easier than getting a hold of prince harry lol
Excellent episode again! And I really like the thumbnail (or whatever the pic YT shows is called - Dutch guy here).
Thanks, Trev! Jonathan always does a great job with the thumbnails
Incredible story!! Hope you heal a bit more each day!!!
This is a great interview, but just for a little constructive criticism it's a bit hard to follow if you're not familiar with the cult or subjects. I've heard of the cult but only really the name and the connection to an actress that I think got arrested? The conversation just kinda jumps in referring to people on a first name basis, not context added to who they are, what the cult was about, when it was active, or anything like that. Just kinda assuming we're all familiar with the background details.
If that's intentional and you're trying to reach people who are already moderately informed then of course feel free to ignore this. But I'm about 20 minutes in and I don't really know what the cult did or how big it was or anything.
Even just a quick two or three minute intro would help ground me in the conversation and what activities are being referenced, etc.
I need to rewatch the vow
Paying $2700 for the 5 day class should have been the first red flag it seems to me. But once you've paid the money it's easy to see how that encourages you to stick it out for the whole 5 days, even when red flags are going off the first day. And that contributes to the entrapment, right?
Oh yay congratulations 🎉on getting this interview I love Sarah Edmonton she’s very talented I followed her story for years and both of you are very strong beautiful women thank you for sharing ur stories and for ALL U DO sending love from Canada 🇨🇦 ❤🫶🏼❤️🫶🏼❤️
Thanks Yvona! I appreciate the support!
@@CultstoConsciousness thank u for ur ❤️ and ur response I had to edit my comment cuz I saw I left a word out once you do that the heart disappeared 🤨 that’s kinda weird lol 😂
bit of a hot take, but I don't give a shit if people feel guilty and shine a light on what they did, they were complicit in this and deserve no forgiveness.
Scientology also teaches that victims "pull it in". Victim blaming is common in cults.
So does A Course in Miracles and Laws of Attraction
@@merriferrell2818 indeed I worked for Hay House who publishes all these people. I've never been in a bigger nest of Narcissists in my life.
The first thing I would have noticed about NXIVM would have been the DOS Latin motto, Dominus Obsequious Sororium . "Obsequious" is an English adjective and "Sororium" has the wrong genitive ending. If Raniere was truly a genius and wanted to express the legitimacy of his cult he wouldn't have created such a monstrosity of pseudo-Latin. He would have written Dominus Obsequiosarum Sororum = Lord of the Obsequious Sisters. He could have also used Obsequentium (fem, gen, pl) = compliant . I have read articles and watched videos where this inscription was presented unaltered and then translated and no one has bothered to notice this. Even the New York Times and Esquire missed it. So much for precision in journalism.
I just binge watched both seasons of The Vow and omg, it’s really good!. Someone said in the comments they felt bad for Nancy, but she is quite a manipulator herself so no, I don’t feel sad for her
Would you interview Amanda Grant from the polygamous cult "the order"?
Garden Gnome! I missed that the first time I watched this. (47:32 )Good one, Sarah.
Another interesting interview. But in my humble opinion, I think that a lot of the former cult members also need to take some personal responsibility and ownership for what happened with them in nexium?
Wow great interview going to watch the hbo series now. Yhanks for sharing your story
I love this channel ❤ so well done. Thanks so much for educating.
Glad you enjoy it!
Sarah is amazing!!! Thank you for all the work you do!
I need ro know the laws on what we can say publicly about an abuser. I was groomed assaulted. the police refused to take a crime report. 4 years later, im still injured. I have names and dates
My heart went out to Lauren when I read her testimony. That bastard Raneire took her best child bearing years.
Great…and I mean GREAT interview and conversation. Powerful, thank you!
Thank you!
First, I wanna say that I love your channel. It's super interesting. I've watched quite a few of your videos already. This was the first one where I didn't understand the cult at all though. I feel like there was not a lot of background or it wasn't explained well as an overview. I had to Google and watch another RUclips video to try to learn the basics.
Thank you for sharing that! We are actually going to be interviewing Mark Vicente who was one of the first to leave. The one who recruited Sarah. We will do better at explaining in his episode.
I really admire the incredible things you have done since you woke up. Nobody wants to be brainwashed. I think it's important to never blame victims. I think every single person in this cult was a victim of one man.
Thank you both for this one.
Halfway through this episode and I still don't know what god damn thing about this cult
There is no shortcut to greatness.
When they talked about how there are in fact false allegations made by people claiming to be victims, I felt like I needed to interject that yes they happen, but on average, out of all allegations, 8% of them were found to be completely false
But there is also the concept of DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. That’s a common tool of the narcissist and/or abuser to take the pressure off themselves and confuse others issues and their victims/s. I think a lot of what they were talking about here, not really about the “false r*pe accusations” for instance.
Thanks to both these special loving and wise women. I am a fan.
Thanks, Donna!! Happy to have you here 😁
I don’t see a problem with coaches and spiritual gurus and I don’t think credentials necessarily mean much….however I think it’s important to maintain your own mind, to keep your eyes wide open and receive information from multiple sources so it’s way harder to just look at one person and think they know everything
Very good. Shelise should be on TV as so good. I often wonder why I never got into a cult (I have a sibling who briefly was one of the orange people etc but not in US - (Wild wild country - sannyasins). I htink it's because I always felt quite good, whole, happy, no deficiencies to fix and not going to pay money to someone else, whereas my sibling who at a leading UK university was lured into her group by her university therapist (!!!) , you can imagine what our parents thought of that, although she did graduate extremely well so the education was not compromised. She was homesick at university (I wasn't) and unhappy. So I suppose it comes down to that - they target the vulnerable or those who think they are not whole or can be made better. Therefore perhaps I am protected for having too high an option of myself (laughing as I type). Keep up the good work. I loved the Vow too. I remember in the late 60s when I was very very very small watching a black and white TV documentary showing L Ron Hubbard with my psychiatrist father - even then he and I were interested in cults and what makes people do certain things.
She said "talking shit about someone is an act of violence" . This and other things she mentioned sounds like another very popular modern cult that is thriving right now. The problem is no one's realised it's a cult yet because there isn't one specific leader but it's definitely a cult and in 20 years or so people will see that.
What is it? Let us know, it could help you never know ❤
@@JNB520 To be fair people are calling it a cult now, thankfully. It's the only people today who say words are violence. The ones that gaslight the hell out of anyone who has even slight concerns about their ideology and call you hyperbolic names for questioning them. The ones who deny the existence of anyone who makes it out of their cult and decides to speak out but also harasses them for speaking out. It's the trans cult. And I don't mean every single trans person, I specifically mean the cult ideology around it that even most level-headed trans people do not agree with. Also they recruit through social media via brainwashing. It has all the hallmarks of a cult except for the sole leader, instead there are many leading this cult and it has completely taken over western society.
@@natb9919 I gotcha and I know exactly what you mean & agree with you
you are actually delusional if you believe that a "trans cult" exists.... kinda expected more from a fan of this channel....
@@natb9919 are you saying being trans is a cult?
Keith definitely pulled a lot from scientology as well.
have you heard of Dr. Ross Laing, he had groups in Toronto, Kitchener, Florida.. ??
Hey Sarah...you didn’t get me.
I didn’t even know there was a season 2!!
I used to be in this academy that prepares to become a civil servant in my Country. I wasn't happy with service provided and I had been quite vocal about it. The thing, it's that they made this motivational video. And at certain moment, the person started talking about instead of searching for what was wrong with our preparation outside, we should look inside. That maybe, the problem was within us and we were blaming others. I know he was saying that mainly because of me. Thankfully I saw through that bullshit, but it could have gone otherwise. Actually in other moments, it went otherwise. Anyways, It reminds me a lot of what Sarah says about "if you don't like someone maybe the problem is in you".
What's interesting about this kind of manipulation is there are situations where this kind of "advices" would apply. For example, if you don't like someone because they're from a different race. Sure, that's a you problem. But that's sort of an exception. But because, those exceptions exists, they make you doubt yourself. And there's of course nothing wrong with a little bit of old good introspection, and cuestioning ourselves, but how that can be twisted into something so perverse...It's scary.
The true believers, denying his guilt,blaming the FBI and the women.But if your blaming others the fault is in yourself.
The first time I watched season 2 when Alison first met that barrel chested little dwarf KR I was stunned and it still haunts me when she said something to him about popping her cherry and he said oh my , I found his response very creepy and I believe he knew after that meeting that he could easily control her .
she should be in jail too
I agree, any one else think it’s weird that she was laughing so much when describing some of the abuse that took place???? This was wild af wtf?
Mark Vicente too.
@@KaliPhantomit’s a pretty normal reaction to tension, actually. I’d also guess that she now realizes how stupid it all sounds, and she feels some embarrassment at not realizing how ridiculous it all was much sooner.
Excellent conversation!!!
Interesting to hear an insider perspective on this.
I'm from the Albany area in upstate New York. I remember the insane press coverage, and hearing the horrific stories coming out of the case.
Have no idea why upstate New York produces all these weird religious groups (like Jehovah's Witnesses, Nexium, and even the LDS church..) I guess we're odd like that here. 😉
Love this podcast (I'm also a costumer..)
I had a similar thought when I learned that the Falun Dafa / Falun Gong people (the ones behind the Shen Yun dance shows) also are in Upstate NY. Also the Mormons as you mentioned, and the Oneida cult (who ended up making some lovely flatware!), and the Shakers (who made furniture)…. What the F is in the land or the water in upstate New York that leads to all these cults?? Makes me glad that I moved away from Rochester when I was a teenager! LOL
@@DawnDavidson I chalk it up to New York State having A LOT of space, and not much to do, besides farming. It's also easier to build religious communities in the vast amount of space, and the education level is iffy in some of the smaller towns.
Plus, in the Shakers and Joseph Smith's time, the Rochester area was still considered the frontier. Why not start a religion? Nobody will bother you for the most part.
Upstate is also famous for Jehovah's Witnesses being formed here.
Rochester, hey? Book of Mormon always seemed like the type of epic tales a sailor would tell, rather than it having some mill town folklore as its basis. That's interesting. Rochester🤣. California also seems to generate cults... not sure what the impetus is, or if it's correlation. Maybe places with bored upper middle class youth. IDK, tho.
This sounds a lot like what happens in Scientology, bjust with other words and names for the actions.
Nexium is a medisin for acid reflux altso,
You should talk with Sadie Carpenter and Garviel Harkonen from the Leaving Eden Podcast. She talks about the Independent Baptist Church and how damaging and cult like their beliefs are.
Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll look into it!
Beyond HUGE!!! EPICAL EVEN!!!
🙂👍 Most excellent interview! & im only 5 mins in.
Hi Sam! Welcome!
The fact that she didn't go to jail would chap my ass if I was one of the persons she recruited and is serving time in prison. Maybe she'll help those who get out of prison get back on their feet again. Maybe she can help pay to get the branding removed from their pubic area?
Have you ever had a mainstream, evangelical Christian who has deconstructed, and recognizes it as a cult?
I'm in the cult of 'Merica!
Great interview!
Thank you Tereza!
Wow! You are kicking buttttttt
🥰🥳🙏 doing my best!
Rainer's recorded footage was "so damning" and Sarah gobbled it up for 12 years and recruited others.
I have been a fan of yours and also a big fan of watching the HBO movie Nexium and I’m curious would you ever interview Bonnie, Mark Vincenti’s wife. I’ve always wanted to know what was it about her that made her realize very quickly that she was in a cult.
Yes! We have asked Bonnie and after Mark’s interview, he said that she is considering it but mostly trying to keep some distance from it all. Which is understandable.
Sure it's great she's making money from her shame. Let's not forget. It will be fun discussing it. Crazy world
He didn't think his people would sold him out 😂😂 good going 👍
Hey, can you tell me what type of microphone and camera you use? My daughter wants to make a RUclips channel.
It's like corporate dungeons and dragons nerds
Great interview. I love Sarah and Nippy and their podcast too.
Thanks Jodi! They are awesome
@@CultstoConsciousness thanks for this episode. I started listening to Sarah and Nippy during lockdown.
I love that you bring other Podcasters/RUclipsrs that I listen to.