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This is defiantly how cadye will be ressed. Also haven't watched the vid fully yet but, the twist or curse to the wish will be either crow dies or cayde can't leave the traveler. Edit: now that ive watched the full video another curse may be that riven takes control of cayde, This would make sense after seeing caydes eyes in TFS.
If this is how Cayde comes back, personally, I LOVE IT! I feel it is a much more creative way to bring him back with some really cool story implications. Edit: I also really like how, if Riven does indeed fulfil Crow's wish, the story really comes full circle. The next question is did she do it maliciously or did she take a page out of Taranis's book as her final act? Who knows. I'm all over this story man!
I think she took a page out of taranis's book personally. We see that she's seemingly genuinely appreciative of crow's willingness be a mouthpiece for Taranis's last words to her, so I think this wish is both a thank you for that, and maybe even an apology for what she manipulated Uldren into doing. She even apologizes to him verbally as Mara, but it of course seems like it was Mara apologizing at first. But with the context of that being riven, I think that the apology was more than just her playing the part to convince Crow, it was indirectly sincere.
@@ToyotaCorolla-en2mv I know a lot of people will hate on that theory but I REALLY hope that's how it plays out. It would make for some genuinely impactful character development and storytelling on bungies part with Riven.
Got to watch and awesome Byf video and comment on a Toad comment truly a glorious end to this rather annoying IT gamer dad's Friday. Thanks to the both of you for your great content!
@@Toadsmoothie A lot of people in the comments(too many to properly cite) have also proposed this, Savathun's AND Crow's wish are so close that that could both be granted by the same wish so it wouldn't require Riven to grant two wishes, and if that's how it plays out well done Bungie! By same wish I mean Savathun's is to get into the Traveler's pale heart to follow the Witness and Crow's is to tell Cayde IN PERSON he wished he'd never pulled the trigger.
I think Crow wishing he could just "tell" Cayde that he shouldn't have done it, is what gets Crow through the portal. Crow gets through the portal and gets to see Cayde and tell him. This would also make Crow killing Cayde alway part of the plan so Crow would make the wish to tell Cayde he shouldn't have done it.
Yeah I was thinking the two wishes could really be brought into one. Send one guardian through the portal in order that he may apologize to Cayde. It's not really a separate wish as much as it is just a little more involved. Then again there are two people involved- Savathun & Crow. Don't know what the contracts of Wish magic say about adding individuals to an already contracted Wish.
@@Soulverine we also have to remember that it was Savathuun that allowed Crow to “see/know” about his former life…so these things certainly could be more entwined than what appears on the surface.
@@Soulverine Three* wishes. Mara's wish to have a way, Crows wish to apologize to Cayde and Savathuns wish that only one person to go through HER way, thus Crow becomes the one to go through thanks to Riven. Riven is managing to respect all three wishes as one whole wish... I just wonder what the bad could come from this, hopefully Riven choses to grant Mara's and Crows wishes safely in honor of her Mate and his wish for their children.
I remember Ikora saying "I wish you could have been there," in the teaser trailer for The Final Shape. With all this Ahamkara magic going on, I'm now much more worried about that choice of phrase.
You are just reaching. She cannot grant anymore wishes She's fucking dead She outright said that is the last wish Do you need more to hammer the point across or if you still think that's not enough Ikora's tone is literally to a friend; She's fucking morose. She's telling a friend I wish you were there to see it.
Oh shit thats such a good point, especially how careful theyve been using the words 'I wish' in narrative. Only letting a character make that freudian slip when absolutely necessary.
I think that this all hints at Riven possibly having affection toward Crow and feeling bad about how his life turned out after she manipulated him and it didn't turn out as Riven intended Forsaken to go. I think she genuinely likes Crow and possibly admires/respsects Mara in a way. Crow asked if she mourned "I did.... [Riven] is silent for a moment. 'And I regret what I did to you. The manipulation'..." I know Riven said she'd grant one last wish, but this seems to be her trying to fix what she broke in Crow/Uldren and make ammends for how his life went when she got involved. If it weren't for Riven, Uldren wouldn't have created the Skorn, killed Cayde, the Dreaming City was cursed, Savathun's (Osiris) manipulation, Crow being killed/beaten repeatedly by angry Guardians, always feeling alone, etc. Riven isn't bad/evil she's just chaotic and after we save her kids, she remembers her husband being a kind being, it makes her take on some of that and try to do good before she dies?..dies again?
That’s a pretty hypothesis, given the context of this season, as well as Riven’s own revelations about both her late spouse and her relationship with us Guardians.
One quick correction, Byf: Riven's exact words were "Savathun's wish will undoubtedly be the last I grant." That doesn't mean she can't grant extra wishes between now and when she grants Savathun's wish.
@lordshaxx9090 the wall of wishes provides people with a way to make wishes with little room for distortion. Wishes made without using the wall are still prone to distortion. Nothing prevents Riven from granting wishes that aren't made through the wall - in fact she much prefers it, and hates the rigidity of wall wishes.
I think Riven could fulfill this wish BY fulfilling Savathun's wish of someone following the Witness, thus allowing it to be "another" wish. Crow goes to fulfill Savathun's wish, and in the course of that he is met with this sort of "phantom" Cayde. Regardless of how it happens, I love the storyline this season and Crow's arc here. He's truly being a hunter following the Way of the Pathfinder while also maintaining his core as Uldren- as someone who is daring and learning to be so on his own, with a healthier connection to Mara than before.
I think you're onto something with the two wishes being one. She made a bargain to take someone into the traveler, but why not make a little more potential energy juice on the side? Perhaps she uses it as a feed for her children?
This seems like a very plausible way Cayde may return. Seeing him reborn as Light itself, I’d once speculated the inside of the Traveler is an afterlife for all long dead Guardian legends: the Iron Lords, modern day heroes from the Red War and past ten years, Hunter posses and Titan orders now gone, the Sunbreakers. Imagine, the Guardians about to lead the charge against the Witness, and suddenly portals appear out of nowhere, only for Radagast, Fellwinter, Liu Feng, Ouros, Shinobu, and millions of other Guardians, to march out alongside us. The Traveler within being a type of Valhalla for Guardians would be amazing. Though, I don’t think this is the case anymore. Maybe not.
Riven is a better sibling figure to Crow than Mara confirmed. I jest, but... honestly, if we assume Riven isn't only saying what she is to wear down Crow's defenses but is instead genuine, the tone of this lore tab changes completely. I don't find it impossible that she regrets her past actions and is taking pity on him.
Riven is quite similar to Savathun in a way. They both can never be fully trusted, even when being genuine. Savathun seems to make her intentions known/partially clear, but conceals in what manner she chooses to approach her next moves. Riven makes her moves known but conceals the intentions behind them. Honestly, Riven and Savathun can be involved in a nature vs nurture debate with how complex they are. Riven has revealed that Ahamkara DO NOT NECESSARILY need to be as selfish and conniving as they are, as Taranis was (once) living proof of that, and Riven has made it clear that the only reason she hasn't spoiled everything involved in the bargain is because then we'd more than likely go back on it (like when she revealed only one can go thru). And Taranis has made it clear from his lore tab that he wants their children to be better than the ones from before.
I want to lean more towards it's her being genuine, but at the same time she is of a thousand voices. There's no real way to know unless bungie straight tells us.
@@ActuallyNTiX They don't necessarily have to, but they still suffer in terms of sustenance. As Taranis said, wishes granted as is rather than twisted don't provide the same amount of nourishment as those monkey pawed so to speak. But to also be fair, Taranis' walk of life lead him to discovering things most Ahamkara probably never really figured out. Things in his life span panned out in a way for him to discover that they as a species could indeed live off of un-corrupted wishes. Though I think we also forget the lifestyle that Ahamkara live also leads to them basically fighting each other throughout their lives other than to mate. So the way Taranis was, may have caused a change in Riven. In fact I'd be willing to bet that the only reason she's slowly started to act differently, as in revealing that only one could go through, was probably because she got to talk to Taranis and understood why he did what he did, as well as reflecting on their time together. I wouldn't say we trust her completely, but I would say we shouldn't immediately and completely distrust her either.
@@snyperwulffgaming9575I'd argue against "we shouldn't immediately and completely distrust her" even if she has changed for the better she would want us to be cautious of her like that just so we were prepared for the monkey paw moment that even she wasn't aware of. Taranis has proven to me even if they aren't trying to monkey paw a wish, they still do in some way sometimes subtle sometimes grand. Taranis has a pure uncorrupted wish for his children's saftey, the monkey paw was it had to be in a universe without him, Crow's wish in the lore tab didn't say anything about Cayde Listening or hearing Crow's regret just that crow could say it to Cayde, and that would be a subtle monkey paw that could come about just from Cayde thinking, Crow is a Guardian he isn't Uldren even if he remembers his previos life so it isn't worth dwelling on.
Did you forget that Riven was the Mara illusion in Forsaken?🤣 sure she was corrupted, but she retained her free will. Mara is no fantastic sister, that's for sure, but Riven did try to have him consumed by a giant meatball😅
If it does end up being how cayde becomes resurrected, that would be awesome . Crow being the one that brings cayde back is just so fulfilling and complete
I think Riven might just combine Crow's "wish" into the act of granting Savathun's Wish, so that Cayde's visage is the one who we all meet inside the Pale Heart.
Honestly i think that's exactly how it'll happen. If the wish is to follow the Witness, its done best with a guide. And who would be a better guide than the legendary hunter himself?
I love this potential revelation. Cayde being resurrected through wish magic would certainly be a great way for his appearance in The Final Shape to be justified. I feel that it also lends more credence to Bungie's team calling him our Vergil in this metaphorical Dante's Inferno of an expansion.
Gonna throw two theories of my own out there. One, I think Byf is right that Riven is going to grant Crow's wish, but a little differently than we might expect. After all, they feed on the chaos between reality and what is desired. Twisting the wish just enough to allow Crow to communicate with Cayde could give her a boost to survive. I think the second wish will be her own. I think she's going to pull a Taranis and sacrifice her essence for her children, since it's going to fade either way. The second thing is that bit about the 7 Ahamkara and their guardian pursuers. I'm wondering if maybe that's how Lady Efrideet's secret guardian community somewhere out in the farther reaches of the solar system was created? It would explain why it's never been found. Those guardians wish for a peaceful, protected place to live and some like minded wish dragons are happy to oblige. It's a bit more out there as theories go, but conceptually it could explain a 7 1/2 year old mystery.
On your second theory it wouldn't be to far out there for Ahamkara to have created a subspace for Efrideet's people with the effective monkey paw if that wish had been twisted was a one way path between that subspace and normal space so one might enter but never leave, or once you leave you can never return or even had knowledge it existed in the first place.
I also appreciate that riven is sort of apologising to crow. The “subtle manipulation” and “coercion”; Mara manipulated crow herself, but so did riven. I think she might be at least a bit apologetic for it
Honestly i could see this going in a sweet direction. Where Riven decides to grant an altruistic wish to bring Cayde back for Crow after hearing from Taranis again. Swayed by her mates kindness and the contentness in knowing her children will live on she doesnt make any tricks or conditions with the wish. Though i imagine in the final shape that the wish wouldnt just go off without a hitch.
I think that riven didn't lie . She has power , to grant OUR one wish , but right now we are collecting her eggs to grant Savathuns last wish . So tldr. Crow is being used , again, by riven to grant OUR last wish .
The Traveller is cosmic potential energy without thought; hence why guardians are born blank The Veil is thought to incarnate When I saw the promotional video for Cayde I figured the Traveller who can't normally talk directly to anyone reached into the Veil when we entered and pulled out the memory of Cayde. It functionally is Cayde as the Veil records all of anyone's life, it would have every memory he does right up until that fateful moment he dies in our arms. So in this way the Traveller uses Cayde as a proxy voice to guide us to the Witness. I think the wish we see here just bends fate so that it is Cayde vs say any other figure the Traveller may choose for the same purpose. This means however I suspect this Cayde can't leave the Traveller either or if he can he's at best mortal like Osiris.
If this is how Cayde is brought back then it’s absolute dog shit that bungie are yet again tucking massive plot points away in lore tabs, of a fucking ship of all things.
@@Alak-Hul_Darkblade What's the difference between an imprint of the consciousness and a soul? Hive use darkness for their spells which is the power of consciousness. It makes sense that in Destiny souls and consciousness are the same.
@@Alak-Hul_DarkbladeMaya Sundaresh's imprint from the Veil became Lakshmi, and she had flashes, bits and pieces of her past life, which is what pushed her to find and use the Device from the Vex. So the proof of concept of the process being possible is there.
I guess the name chosen for the ship (most likely one, that will be paramount to opening a portal in The Final Shape?) being "Unforeseen Consequences" is no coincidence. This is also the name of the chapter in Half-Life, where scientist (and protagonist) of the game Gordon Freeman finds himself after conducting an experiment in a test chamber (which also is quite similar in design to the ship or more likely: vice versa). In Half-Life, as a result of the experiment, a portal to the alien world of Xen is opened. Sounds familiar? ;) This event triggers more of these events in the future, leading to the Seven Hour War that was shown in Half-Life 2. Maybe, this is how the franchise will possibly continue after The Final Shape?
If they approach the franchise this time in a more philosophical way like half life 2 I would sell my liver to buy the dlc no matter what and the continuation I imagine we see a similar death to eli Vance at the end an important character and friend since the start of the cascade and it's survival probably is going to be a twist I imagine Cayde is that character he is not going to be alive but a ghost a guide a helper and after the dlc we will never see him again we will say another goodbye and this is it that's how I imagine it will go.
In the Into The Traveller trailer they just made, it gives a vibe like Cayde has been there alone for quite some time, so maybe that’s a little nod to how much time ended being between the end of Season of The Wish(and Crow’s wish) and the release of FS
I wish that we used the veil in order to resurrect Cade and gain his memories back (maybe all 7 lives) using the veil scents it's connected to the memory of the universe. But since wishes are twisted, this might be the reason why we only see Cade in the traveler and maybe he will be the "NPC" that we talk to in the traveler. Making Crow the top pick for the new hunter vanguard leader.
I just hope that Bungle won't pull "You think you do, but really you don't" on us seeing as many want Cayde back, making him into a villain, or a vessel for one, and then killing him off after showing us that we don't want Cayde because they need to be right and we wrong, and they will make that reality.
This is actually a good theory also one that was practiced recently with the death of batman from the suicide squad game this game died instantly after doing this I am sure Bungie is not that stupid to pull a fuck you card and torture the player
Osiris discovered recently that the Witness had lost its connection to Ghosts and has no way of knowing what's happening in the outside world. I wonder why Mara and Uldren's connection would be different.
I stopped playing around the time that the witch queen was released, absolutely loved your videos throughout the years that I played (started around the Dark below) as they explained so much for me, honestly, you're the biggest reason for me to pick D2 up again and I'm so glad that you've kept making lore vids (especially with how bungie has handled the game from a personal perspective). still burnt out on the series, but the kid who loved the series wants to know how this all ends so I'll most likely pick it all back up once the final shape takes place; I've been thinking of it as my guardian going into stasis while I stop playing, but I'm ready for him to wake tf up and do his part lmao, primarily thanks to you Byf. Thanks for the 10+ years of content and keeping me looped into the lore of the game, even when I falsely thought I was ready to walk away from the Traveller xD
My first thought after the overall story, and how Crow decided to walk first into the pale heart, is how Bungie give reminiscence of the tale of Rega and Ager, a bound nor light or darkness can cut. (linked to how the veil works and the way The Witness create the wsy to the pale heart)
It depends what part of the season this conversation happened, but if it's later, Riven has kinda softened with the addition of Tanaris recently. I wonder if it is Riven when Mara says she regrets manipulating him, and she actually was referring to what Riven did to Uldren, and that's why shes granting another wish
I believe that when Riven states she will grant one last wish is only applying to the wish that she received from the Witch Queen when she was still alive. Once she grants the Which Queen's wish then she will fade away, but she is certainly willing to grant any other wishes in the meantime. Similar thing happened to Hefnd from Warlords Ruin. The last wish he received that we know of before being killed by Lord Shaxx was from Naim. He still granted other wishes after that in death as a means to get to that point, but once her wish was granted he faded away.
I think this right here is DEFINITELY Riven, and, because of Taranis's sacrifice has learned empathy and remorse. Riven reminds me of Caprica Six from Battlestar Galactica, in that she has a fondness for her enemy that eventually leads to her bonding with them and becoming a more benevolent person in the process. I think this whole experience genuinely gave her some legitimate growth. I also think she may have more wishes in store. What we've been seeing is her Ahamkara bodily instincts being separated from her soul/spirit/ghost/whatever-- she's got no NEED to feed, so she can truly be motivated by other things. Consider that we refer to ahamkara like forces of nature. What happens when you take the nature out?
I just came here after the new cutscene and mission, really cool to see Riven not only being a little regretful, but also her being surprised at Crow’s answer. I initially assumed that this was just her checking up on something as a curiosity but it literally just came to me when I saw the title of this, and, holy shit. If this is true that ROCKS.
Also the possibility that an ahamkara that may be involved in the dlc adds a possibility that it couldn’t be Riven, and could be from one that either wants to stop the Witness from doing something to it in the Traveler, or helping the witness maybe plant something to distract us? Could be either tbh
Spoilers Byf lore suggestion Byf this would be an amazing lore bit to dive into, in the new lore books for the Wish-Keeper catalysts, it's revealed that Taranis was probably the Ahamkara that Albios, a warlock risen referenced a lot in D1, interacted with. I love this old connection they made and there is a ton of speculation about Albios and what he was like. And the way Taranis describes him is so compelling, like a peaceful and serene monk.
The emphasis on glowing eyes and shimmering form brought back an unsettling memory. That very first Final Shape teaser trailer where we see Ikora and Cayde, Cayde's eyes are glowing in an eerily similar way to Riven's in Last Wish (albeit blue instead of black, but of course Riven was Taken at the time). And we don't see him until _after_ Ikora speaks the words, "I wish you could have been there." Could the Cayde we get in TFS ... be an Ahamkara in disguise?
You don't think that could have been Savathún do you? I mean, she could have channeled wish magic through a bone. Oh, and of course, the "I'm sorry for manipulating you" would fit as if memory serves correctly in season of the lost Savathún felt some sort of remorse Then again that could also just apply to riven as well so :p
I find it more believable that riven just has enough power to grant more wishes, depending on how much power she needs. Perhaps something like resurrecting someone is much easier to do that opening a path to the traveler, so she can afford to grant these tiny little wishes, without exhausting enough power to eventually expire after granting savathuns wish. Besides, riven said savathuns wish is the last one I will grant. That could literally mean that after that wish, she will die, and not that she only has enough power for 1 more wish
Glad to hear that your feeling better Byf, getting sick recently myself I knoa how much it sucks to deal with Also this is a really interesting plot point proposed here, if this is REALLY how Cayde comes back than it presents a very intriguing story for us and the characters involved, namely Crow and Mara
I think it could possibly be that Riven granted US (The vanguard and guardians) one last wish. Meaning Cayde's resurrection. As the wish she grants to allow Crow passage into the traveler was Savathuns wish.
I believe that the wish to crow about cayde was granted then and there, and the reason this is a lore entry and not a bigger deal is because it’s one of the many smaller things that set the events of the final shape + caydes return into motion, lemme explain 1: after death, ahamkarah bones still hold a number of power. Despite riven only being able to GRANT one last wish, that doesn’t mean the effects of previous already granted wishes and their sideeffects are not still in effect. Even if it’s not riven and is indeed one of those mentioned ahamkarah that “escaped their hunters” it doesn’t matter too much because the lingering wish magic would still be potent enough, at least in the way it functions I think it would 2: the pale heart is a manifestation of light creation energy with the acashic energy of the veil, making almost a reality based on the beholder and memories of those inside, and this is what makes the whole new map in final shape and why the witness is there. 3: cayde is a big aspect of crows story and is likely on his mind quite a bit, so when crow goes into the pale heart and his will is exerted on that land (along with the witness) cayde and the tangled shore will probably be a part of that. This also explains the landscape quote on quote “changing” as the story progresses, as we exert our and our allies will and light over the memory of the pale heart, expelling the witness for good
I think Rivens sudden turn of character during Wish and Starcrossed has pushed her into a more sympathetic, if still selfish, mindset. In the event this is Riven disguised as Mara, which she has done before, I think it would be a really great twisting of her guiding Crow, or rather, the memory of Uldren, towards Cayde.
I believe that if we assume that savathuns wish was the last with riven couldve granted with her remaining power, it doesn't mess with anything. Ahamkara feed on what is and what is desired. Crow wishing that he could apologize to cayde leaves A LOT open for interpretation for riven, giving her the chance to feed on all that energy. And being reminded of Taranis and his method of granting wishes to protect the wisher and even give them more than they desire could have actually compelled riven to grant her only selfless wish. This could also have influenced the 15th wish. Instead of just allowing for one to follow the witness, she could have changed it to guarantee that one will reach the witness. Allowing Crow to be guaranteed to become our ancor.
I’m willing to believe Crow’s wish will be granted in tandem with Savathun’s. Ahamkara cannot grant their own wishes, because of the way they feed based on the gap between desire and reality. To grant your own wish would be to feed on the gap between desire and reality of yourself ie. you feed on yourself. That obviously can’t work so you die. However, maybe granting Savathun’s wish and feeding off that, will give her just enough energy to make a supplementary wish, one requiring a lot less energy and could potentially fold into the original wish by Savathun. As another commenter writes about the possibility that when the traveler and the veil linked, it took the memory of Cayde since the veil is the repository if the universe’s memories, and that crow wishing he could tell Cayde sorry would manifest as sending him inside the traveler to talk to his memory, thereby folding the two wishes into one. Meaning Riven saying she can only grant one more wish still holds. Why do I believe this? Well besides the multitude of hints in the ship’s lore tab like gleaming eyes, whispers, Crow saying he wishes, and the O Brother Mine. Something less obvious stuck out to me and I have the Starcrossed exotic mission to thank. Mara, who is really Riven, says “We all have our obligations.” I think the word obligation here is purposefully used. In Starcrossed, the two buffs are “Dams Gift” and “Sire’s obligation”. The Dams gift is Taranis’ wish to keep the eggs safe from harm, allowing us to keep our deal with Riven. What of the Sire’s obligation, Riven is the Sire but what is she obliged to do? Get us into the traveler? Perhaps, but the word crops up in the ship loretab as well. So two obligations? Nope, because as mentioned earlier, Riven could find a way to fold Crow’s desire into Savathun’s wish to pursue the witness, which Cayde may help us do. The developers themselves call Cayde our Virgil. So it’s not a far cry to expect Riven to slide in this little side effect. It would be some great character development and a way of Riven thanking us for being Taranis’ wish keeper.
since an Ahamkara's entire gimmick is rules lawerying the terms of the bargains they make, she did tell us she only had enough power left to grant US one more wish. The wish we put into the wall to get Crow through the portal was Savathun's wish, so Riven didn't lie, she just exploited our assumption that she meant I can only grant one more wish for anyone at all. When her eyes flash in the lore tab, that's her granting her actual final wish for Crow.
Maybe Ikora kept one alive and in hiding in case it might ever be needed. She was "the greatest of the hunters" during the great hunt. But she's also a conflicted character at tines, so maybe she was conflicted about destroying them all.
Possibly, Crow's wish is so specific and so tiny that it cannot be misinterpreted. How else could Crow tell Cayde he regrets what he did if not passing through the portal into the Traveler, where time doesn't exist and all souls exists?
The whole phrasing that led to the wish that could allow a lot of "misinterpretations". He is asked if there was something in his HISTORY he could change. That alone is enough to create a time travel or regressor situation to twist the wish if it was riven and she wanted to really twist it.
"I wish we had a man on the other side or something" Caydes back. Only possible cause Savathun orchestrated Cayde's death with the scorn and that devourer bullet. Thats how I think it could go.
I can see this being how Cayde comes back, and I believe it was hinted at with the trailer showing his return to the story. We've never seen someone infused with the light glow in such a way, at least not that I can recall. For Guardians it seems like an external glow, our whole body, or parts of our body, glowing the color of the powers we're using. Just plain white though? Sure it could have been just the Light since we're inside the Traveler, but looking back at Ghaul he was made of Light for a while and it still had that classic yellowish coloration to it, not pure white. Rivens spirit however, as well as wish magic, seems to be closer to a pure white or a more silvery color than the Light.
The only issue with that idea is the Traveler's Chosen exotic. It glows with the same kind of light as Cayde in the trailer after you get max stacks of gathering light. It might just be a whole metal reforged in the light kind of glow.
My guess is that it was actually one of Riven's clutch. Ahamkara are paracausal, if they can do stuff after death, its not put of the question that they can before birth. Cause and Effect have little power over paracausality.
It’s possible that the reason Riven can only grant one more wish is because she has no desire to twist the wish to enter the traveler or intends on granting herself a wish, Mr T went out because he granted his own wish. It’s likely that Riven is willing to doom herself to secure the future of her clutch.
Riven told Mara she would grant (her) one wish but said nothing about granting wishes to others. Maybe in her attempt to choose a different path Riven wanted to make amends for her manipulation of Crow and granting a last wish was her way to do it.
I feel as though Riven may be showing a twinge of compassion. She understands that she was at one point taken, and caused much more harm than she usually cares to create. Caydes death being a byproduct of her lack of control may actually weigh on her, not out of guilt maybe, but more as in "This was not done by my will, so I undo it" Compassion, or regret, either way, Riven might not actually want Cayde dead. We never really know with Ahamkara. They just kinda vibe
My head cannon reasons for why I think this is how we see Cayde again: 1: I believe the interaction between fake Mara and Crow came after Crow allowed Tyranus to speak through him for their final conversation. 2: I think Riven, after finding out what Tyranus' final wish was, was inspired to do a selfless wish for Crow since she fucking WRECKED that dude and he still offered his voice for her final interaction with her mate. 3: It's in her best interest for Crow/all of us to succeed. Ahamkaras are chaotic beings and the Witness is HEAVILY against chaotic magic. If the Witness wins then the Ahamkaras are FOR SURE on the chopping block.
cayde being resurrected and faced by crow is (what I think) is the final part of the vanguard dare making crow not only a fully formed guardian but a hunter in all of its glory
just got a voice line from rivens lair where crow admitted to petra that he "made a wish to undo all the pain he had caused." and mara says essentially "noble but it must not have been granted" dont know if anyones caught that
I believe she granted this wish for uldren (crow) as a freebie sacrificing herself for good to grant it. Riven is changing and becoming a good wish dragon before she dies for good
Not sure how this would work since she's already "dead," but I wonder if the introduction to Taranis and the manner of his demise foreshadows Riven granting her own wish - a wish to bring back Cayde - out of remorse for what she did to Crow; a wish to grant a wish?
"All of them have willingly or unwillingly put their lives on the line at moments that were critical to our success." Critical to our success, cleaning up their mess. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. 😅
My thoughts about an outcome I thought up a while back and the theory about The Deep and who who is speaking from their. A little lengthy, but I'm just thorough with my thoughts is all. They could have someone wish that they can grant wishes like an Ahamkara or that Riven and Taranis's whims get more sustenance from altruism in their wishes than tricks. The deal/payment for the wish is to raise and protect their whims, tell them the history between humans and Ahamkara, and how their father's altruism influenced Riven to seek a new future beside humans who also become their Guardians. Their protectors. Their family. Cayde returning, if he stays and doesn't die again, could reveal that he talked with Riven after being brought back. Told her that he'd watch after them for bringing him back. That ol' Uncle Cayde would raise them good, make sure they have a safe place in the world. That'd be sweet. Riven and Taranis's offspring working with Guardians to face against the new baddies later in the story, the Ahamkara and powerful ancient Ascendant beings of The Deep. My theory was the original Ahamkara feasted on the Traveler and Veil energy when they were still connected. When those two broke apart, the proto-Ahamkara went their separate ways, and evolved differently. Some followed the Traveler, some went off to find something new, and some entered the Veil. The Ahamkara trapped in The Deep of the Veil without complete physical form, their consciousnesses still present because of the Light they feasted on before. They've learned as the Veil fills, connected memories, etc. They were the ones manipulating the Witness and their people to reconnect the Traveler and Veil with promises of a Final Shape, a wish at the Pale Heart. They'll pull the biggest Ahamkara wish feast when what the Witness thinks will happen doesn't change the universe the way they expect. It releases the Veiled Ahamkara and the Ascendant beings that were trapped their. The Final Shape is a pathway, a means, the key for them to escape the deep and take up physical form once again. The whims will be too young to do anything grand to fight/protect us, but they could give smaller wishes on occasion working together to hold back a riding tide of threats in the future. Okay I'm done. Just my imagination storytelling for fun. I love games with a lot of lore and a growing story.
I’d once thought Mara was too unassailable and smart to be able to open up more as she had now. That steely will, and stone face of a powerful and mystical Monarch, a mysterious Queen that seemed to be ten paces ahead of everyone else. But, I suppose all it took, was Uldren’s death, and others reflecting her choices back at her to realize the consequences were on her. Savathun and Riven may have played a hand in Uldren’s end, but Mara was the one that put Uldren on that path. He’d have never traveled to the Black Garden if she hadn’t emotionally abused him all those years. He’d wanted love, trust, and respect. Only to receive those things after he’d died, and when Crow took Uldren’s place. Savathun outsmarting Mara, must’ve dealt a blow to her pride, no longer knowing she was the smartest and most cunning. Mara then, had meant her match, humbled by another Queen, and then, there was the Witness, who’d showed Mara, that all her sacrifices and efforts, may be in vain, that even she, the great and powerful Queen Mara Sov, could not hope to defeat it alone. That she, could even join it, in the Final Shape. While this shook her to she core, and she doesn’t rattle easily, we finally saw her open up, be more of a sister than the stone hearted queen we’d known her as. For the first time in a long time, Mara feared not only for herself, but her legacy. Yet, she’d stood steadfast, and again, when the Light of the Traveler, and Darkness of the Witness asked her to choose sides, she choose humanity. And to avenge not just what we’d lost in the Collapse, but to avenge all those who were put to the slaughter by the Witness and its minions. Mara and Crow have certainly changed, almost as if, this second collision of Light and Dark, once more, instigated a change in them.
I think it was this moment that brought Cayde Six back but already in the Pale Heart as Ahamkara can’t bring people back to life in the same way as guardians. And Cayde as a lightbearer so I’m sure that had something to do with it
So in the trailer where we originally found out Cayde is "back", he's got a bit of a "ghostly glow" coming off of him. What if Riven(or whatever Ahamkara is interacting with Crow here) brings Cayde back during this final battle, and Crow gets to express his regret, but the "twist" of this wish, that Ahamkara then forces Cayde to raise Ace, point it at Crow, and speaks through him, saying(or whispering) "Your wish.. has been granted." and killing Crow and Glint? Feels VERY Ahamkara wish-twist imo.
Riven has been SALIVATING for this moment and either Petra or Crow was gonna give her the ammo she needed. I can’t remember for certain but, one possible surviving Ahamkara was that one from the Dreaming City. The one who massacred a group of celebratory Awoken by letting them walk off a cliff in the Garden of Esila while they laughed and danced and others watched on from across the way in horror. I know they flew off into the night after but, I can’t recall if anyone ever caught them in the hunt.
Brief thought. It's possible Riven granted this wish as a final gesture as she passed. A way to thank Mara for years of "Friendship," apologize to Uldren for the years of manipulation, and thank all of us for seeing to her clutch. One last thank you on her way out the door in the only way she knows how... Or, ya know, she's a hell and a bit of a nutter butter and either there's going to be a cost, or Cayde is going to seek revenge on the other side of the portal. I would postulate that she intends Cayde to end Uldren to frustrate or plans, but that endanger her clutch and thus seems unlikely
I hope that once Crow goes into the Traveler and sees Cayde they have their talk he apologizes and Cayde just says " what's done is done and oh by the way you killed me sooooo you're hunter vanguard now byyyyeee" 😂😂😂
I'm pretty sure it has to be Riven. Unless her clutch starts to hatch as the final beat of the seasonal story, us completing Wish-themed weekly challenges in the near future post-season would suggest Riven still has Wish Magic left in her.
I think it'd be very compelling if Riven granted this wish as her own. That could kill her, sure. But what if this is her way of making it up to Crow/Uldren? Idk, I just get this feeling from all the talk about how Mara and Crow changed... About how Taranis acted... Just thought it would be somewhat touching if it did turn out that way. Like she sought Crow out specifically to figure out what he really wished for and granted it benevolently.
I really hope Cayde isnt here as a "Hi, Im here to help with this one fight, then Im gone!" As I love Nathan Fillion and his work. I was so happy to see his video announcing his return. They made such a big deal of it, it would suck for this 1 paycheck and hes gone.
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This is defiantly how cadye will be ressed. Also haven't watched the vid fully yet but, the twist or curse to the wish will be either crow dies or cayde can't leave the traveler.
Edit: now that ive watched the full video another curse may be that riven takes control of cayde, This would make sense after seeing caydes eyes in TFS.
So .. killing cayde 7 to get cayde 8...
And imagine the first person he sees is Crow. Someone is gonna be pissed
@@mechaman88 excuse me?
If this is how Cayde comes back, personally, I LOVE IT! I feel it is a much more creative way to bring him back with some really cool story implications.
Edit: I also really like how, if Riven does indeed fulfil Crow's wish, the story really comes full circle. The next question is did she do it maliciously or did she take a page out of Taranis's book as her final act? Who knows. I'm all over this story man!
I think she took a page out of taranis's book personally. We see that she's seemingly genuinely appreciative of crow's willingness be a mouthpiece for Taranis's last words to her, so I think this wish is both a thank you for that, and maybe even an apology for what she manipulated Uldren into doing. She even apologizes to him verbally as Mara, but it of course seems like it was Mara apologizing at first. But with the context of that being riven, I think that the apology was more than just her playing the part to convince Crow, it was indirectly sincere.
@@ToyotaCorolla-en2mv I know a lot of people will hate on that theory but I REALLY hope that's how it plays out. It would make for some genuinely impactful character development and storytelling on bungies part with Riven.
@@Toadsmoothiecongrats on the 100k, love your content!
Got to watch and awesome Byf video and comment on a Toad comment truly a glorious end to this rather annoying IT gamer dad's Friday. Thanks to the both of you for your great content!
@@Toadsmoothie A lot of people in the comments(too many to properly cite) have also proposed this, Savathun's AND Crow's wish are so close that that could both be granted by the same wish so it wouldn't require Riven to grant two wishes, and if that's how it plays out well done Bungie! By same wish I mean Savathun's is to get into the Traveler's pale heart to follow the Witness and Crow's is to tell Cayde IN PERSON he wished he'd never pulled the trigger.
I think Crow wishing he could just "tell" Cayde that he shouldn't have done it, is what gets Crow through the portal. Crow gets through the portal and gets to see Cayde and tell him. This would also make Crow killing Cayde alway part of the plan so Crow would make the wish to tell Cayde he shouldn't have done it.
Holy shit
Yeah I was thinking the two wishes could really be brought into one. Send one guardian through the portal in order that he may apologize to Cayde. It's not really a separate wish as much as it is just a little more involved. Then again there are two people involved- Savathun & Crow. Don't know what the contracts of Wish magic say about adding individuals to an already contracted Wish.
Pretty smart. It would solve the 2 wish dilemma by folding Crow’s wish with Savathun’s
@@Soulverine we also have to remember that it was Savathuun that allowed Crow to “see/know” about his former life…so these things certainly could be more entwined than what appears on the surface.
@@Soulverine Three* wishes. Mara's wish to have a way, Crows wish to apologize to Cayde and Savathuns wish that only one person to go through HER way, thus Crow becomes the one to go through thanks to Riven.
Riven is managing to respect all three wishes as one whole wish... I just wonder what the bad could come from this, hopefully Riven choses to grant Mara's and Crows wishes safely in honor of her Mate and his wish for their children.
I remember Ikora saying "I wish you could have been there," in the teaser trailer for The Final Shape. With all this Ahamkara magic going on, I'm now much more worried about that choice of phrase.
You are just reaching.
She cannot grant anymore wishes
She's fucking dead
She outright said that is the last wish
Do you need more to hammer the point across or if you still think that's not enough
Ikora's tone is literally to a friend; She's fucking morose. She's telling a friend I wish you were there to see it.
Cayde is Riven confirmed?
Oh shit thats such a good point, especially how careful theyve been using the words 'I wish' in narrative. Only letting a character make that freudian slip when absolutely necessary.
I think that this all hints at Riven possibly having affection toward Crow and feeling bad about how his life turned out after she manipulated him and it didn't turn out as Riven intended Forsaken to go. I think she genuinely likes Crow and possibly admires/respsects Mara in a way.
Crow asked if she mourned "I did.... [Riven] is silent for a moment. 'And I regret what I did to you. The manipulation'..." I know Riven said she'd grant one last wish, but this seems to be her trying to fix what she broke in Crow/Uldren and make ammends for how his life went when she got involved. If it weren't for Riven, Uldren wouldn't have created the Skorn, killed Cayde, the Dreaming City was cursed, Savathun's (Osiris) manipulation, Crow being killed/beaten repeatedly by angry Guardians, always feeling alone, etc. Riven isn't bad/evil she's just chaotic and after we save her kids, she remembers her husband being a kind being, it makes her take on some of that and try to do good before she dies?..dies again?
That’s a pretty hypothesis, given the context of this season, as well as Riven’s own revelations about both her late spouse and her relationship with us Guardians.
This might be wishful thinking on your part, but I like it
One quick correction, Byf:
Riven's exact words were "Savathun's wish will undoubtedly be the last I grant."
That doesn't mean she can't grant extra wishes between now and when she grants Savathun's wish.
She literally can’t grant any wishes, the wall of wishes prevents that
@@lordshaxx9090 the wall of wishes just prevents her from twisting and fucking with a wish. It doesn't mean she needs it to grant them.
@lordshaxx9090 the wall of wishes provides people with a way to make wishes with little room for distortion. Wishes made without using the wall are still prone to distortion. Nothing prevents Riven from granting wishes that aren't made through the wall - in fact she much prefers it, and hates the rigidity of wall wishes.
@@lordshaxx9090 The wall makes specific contracts for wishes it doesn't limit her from granting wishes on her own will
I think Riven could fulfill this wish BY fulfilling Savathun's wish of someone following the Witness, thus allowing it to be "another" wish. Crow goes to fulfill Savathun's wish, and in the course of that he is met with this sort of "phantom" Cayde. Regardless of how it happens, I love the storyline this season and Crow's arc here. He's truly being a hunter following the Way of the Pathfinder while also maintaining his core as Uldren- as someone who is daring and learning to be so on his own, with a healthier connection to Mara than before.
I think you're onto something with the two wishes being one. She made a bargain to take someone into the traveler, but why not make a little more potential energy juice on the side? Perhaps she uses it as a feed for her children?
This seems like a very plausible way Cayde may return. Seeing him reborn as Light itself, I’d once speculated the inside of the Traveler is an afterlife for all long dead Guardian legends: the Iron Lords, modern day heroes from the Red War and past ten years, Hunter posses and Titan orders now gone, the Sunbreakers. Imagine, the Guardians about to lead the charge against the Witness, and suddenly portals appear out of nowhere, only for Radagast, Fellwinter, Liu Feng, Ouros, Shinobu, and millions of other Guardians, to march out alongside us. The Traveler within being a type of Valhalla for Guardians would be amazing. Though, I don’t think this is the case anymore. Maybe not.
That’s what I was thinking too.
A sort of “nested” wish. One inside the other.
"the right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.". I do think this line works for this scenario as well.
i got chills when you said "oh brother mine" in the darker tone and it was great lol
Riven is a better sibling figure to Crow than Mara confirmed.
I jest, but... honestly, if we assume Riven isn't only saying what she is to wear down Crow's defenses but is instead genuine, the tone of this lore tab changes completely. I don't find it impossible that she regrets her past actions and is taking pity on him.
Riven is quite similar to Savathun in a way. They both can never be fully trusted, even when being genuine. Savathun seems to make her intentions known/partially clear, but conceals in what manner she chooses to approach her next moves. Riven makes her moves known but conceals the intentions behind them.
Honestly, Riven and Savathun can be involved in a nature vs nurture debate with how complex they are. Riven has revealed that Ahamkara DO NOT NECESSARILY need to be as selfish and conniving as they are, as Taranis was (once) living proof of that, and Riven has made it clear that the only reason she hasn't spoiled everything involved in the bargain is because then we'd more than likely go back on it (like when she revealed only one can go thru).
And Taranis has made it clear from his lore tab that he wants their children to be better than the ones from before.
I want to lean more towards it's her being genuine, but at the same time she is of a thousand voices. There's no real way to know unless bungie straight tells us.
@@ActuallyNTiX They don't necessarily have to, but they still suffer in terms of sustenance. As Taranis said, wishes granted as is rather than twisted don't provide the same amount of nourishment as those monkey pawed so to speak. But to also be fair, Taranis' walk of life lead him to discovering things most Ahamkara probably never really figured out. Things in his life span panned out in a way for him to discover that they as a species could indeed live off of un-corrupted wishes. Though I think we also forget the lifestyle that Ahamkara live also leads to them basically fighting each other throughout their lives other than to mate. So the way Taranis was, may have caused a change in Riven.
In fact I'd be willing to bet that the only reason she's slowly started to act differently, as in revealing that only one could go through, was probably because she got to talk to Taranis and understood why he did what he did, as well as reflecting on their time together. I wouldn't say we trust her completely, but I would say we shouldn't immediately and completely distrust her either.
@@snyperwulffgaming9575I'd argue against "we shouldn't immediately and completely distrust her" even if she has changed for the better she would want us to be cautious of her like that just so we were prepared for the monkey paw moment that even she wasn't aware of. Taranis has proven to me even if they aren't trying to monkey paw a wish, they still do in some way sometimes subtle sometimes grand. Taranis has a pure uncorrupted wish for his children's saftey, the monkey paw was it had to be in a universe without him, Crow's wish in the lore tab didn't say anything about Cayde Listening or hearing Crow's regret just that crow could say it to Cayde, and that would be a subtle monkey paw that could come about just from Cayde thinking, Crow is a Guardian he isn't Uldren even if he remembers his previos life so it isn't worth dwelling on.
Did you forget that Riven was the Mara illusion in Forsaken?🤣 sure she was corrupted, but she retained her free will. Mara is no fantastic sister, that's for sure, but Riven did try to have him consumed by a giant meatball😅
I actually just noticed that the Wishes of Sorrow ornament for Thorn has the the same glow Cayde and the Ace of Spades have inside the Travler
If it does end up being how cayde becomes resurrected, that would be awesome . Crow being the one that brings cayde back is just so fulfilling and complete
I think Riven might just combine Crow's "wish" into the act of granting Savathun's Wish, so that Cayde's visage is the one who we all meet inside the Pale Heart.
Honestly i think that's exactly how it'll happen. If the wish is to follow the Witness, its done best with a guide. And who would be a better guide than the legendary hunter himself?
"It's a risky plan for sure." Remember that one time we already did this with the Dreadnought?
I love this potential revelation. Cayde being resurrected through wish magic would certainly be a great way for his appearance in The Final Shape to be justified. I feel that it also lends more credence to Bungie's team calling him our Vergil in this metaphorical Dante's Inferno of an expansion.
I like how Mara said trust riven to do her part. I feel like the old Mara would have caged her and forced her in case as a back up plan
Gonna throw two theories of my own out there. One, I think Byf is right that Riven is going to grant Crow's wish, but a little differently than we might expect. After all, they feed on the chaos between reality and what is desired. Twisting the wish just enough to allow Crow to communicate with Cayde could give her a boost to survive. I think the second wish will be her own. I think she's going to pull a Taranis and sacrifice her essence for her children, since it's going to fade either way.
The second thing is that bit about the 7 Ahamkara and their guardian pursuers. I'm wondering if maybe that's how Lady Efrideet's secret guardian community somewhere out in the farther reaches of the solar system was created? It would explain why it's never been found. Those guardians wish for a peaceful, protected place to live and some like minded wish dragons are happy to oblige. It's a bit more out there as theories go, but conceptually it could explain a 7 1/2 year old mystery.
On your second theory it wouldn't be to far out there for Ahamkara to have created a subspace for Efrideet's people with the effective monkey paw if that wish had been twisted was a one way path between that subspace and normal space so one might enter but never leave, or once you leave you can never return or even had knowledge it existed in the first place.
Mara says in the opening of the last wish raid “ Riven is the last KNOWN “
I also appreciate that riven is sort of apologising to crow. The “subtle manipulation” and “coercion”; Mara manipulated crow herself, but so did riven. I think she might be at least a bit apologetic for it
Crow forgot the number one rule for dealing with Ahamkara: always check your phrasing.
reading the lore tab myself was insane i was like DID CROW JUST MAKE A WISH
Honestly i could see this going in a sweet direction. Where Riven decides to grant an altruistic wish to bring Cayde back for Crow after hearing from Taranis again. Swayed by her mates kindness and the contentness in knowing her children will live on she doesnt make any tricks or conditions with the wish. Though i imagine in the final shape that the wish wouldnt just go off without a hitch.
I think that riven didn't lie . She has power , to grant OUR one wish , but right now we are collecting her eggs to grant Savathuns last wish . So tldr. Crow is being used , again, by riven to grant OUR last wish .
The Traveller is cosmic potential energy without thought; hence why guardians are born blank
The Veil is thought to incarnate
When I saw the promotional video for Cayde I figured the Traveller who can't normally talk directly to anyone reached into the Veil when we entered and pulled out the memory of Cayde.
It functionally is Cayde as the Veil records all of anyone's life, it would have every memory he does right up until that fateful moment he dies in our arms.
So in this way the Traveller uses Cayde as a proxy voice to guide us to the Witness.
I think the wish we see here just bends fate so that it is Cayde vs say any other figure the Traveller may choose for the same purpose.
This means however I suspect this Cayde can't leave the Traveller either or if he can he's at best mortal like Osiris.
@@Alak-Hul_Darkblade it is the original
If this is how Cayde is brought back then it’s absolute dog shit that bungie are yet again tucking massive plot points away in lore tabs, of a fucking ship of all things.
The Traveller spoke to Rhulk through a ghost though
@@Alak-Hul_Darkblade What's the difference between an imprint of the consciousness and a soul? Hive use darkness for their spells which is the power of consciousness. It makes sense that in Destiny souls and consciousness are the same.
@@Alak-Hul_DarkbladeMaya Sundaresh's imprint from the Veil became Lakshmi, and she had flashes, bits and pieces of her past life, which is what pushed her to find and use the Device from the Vex. So the proof of concept of the process being possible is there.
I guess the name chosen for the ship (most likely one, that will be paramount to opening a portal in The Final Shape?) being "Unforeseen Consequences" is no coincidence. This is also the name of the chapter in Half-Life, where scientist (and protagonist) of the game Gordon Freeman finds himself after conducting an experiment in a test chamber (which also is quite similar in design to the ship or more likely: vice versa). In Half-Life, as a result of the experiment, a portal to the alien world of Xen is opened. Sounds familiar? ;) This event triggers more of these events in the future, leading to the Seven Hour War that was shown in Half-Life 2. Maybe, this is how the franchise will possibly continue after The Final Shape?
If they approach the franchise this time in a more philosophical way like half life 2 I would sell my liver to buy the dlc no matter what and the continuation I imagine we see a similar death to eli Vance at the end an important character and friend since the start of the cascade and it's survival probably is going to be a twist I imagine Cayde is that character he is not going to be alive but a ghost a guide a helper and after the dlc we will never see him again we will say another goodbye and this is it that's how I imagine it will go.
Gotta wish back Siva in to the expansion .
That would be fun
Maybe something involving Clovis and SIVA?
Glad you're feeling better Byf and big thanks to the assists that helped keep your channel going while you were waiting for your ghost to revive you
In the Into The Traveller trailer they just made, it gives a vibe like Cayde has been there alone for quite some time, so maybe that’s a little nod to how much time ended being between the end of Season of The Wish(and Crow’s wish) and the release of FS
What is cayde-6 vendor be for
Bc
ikora - light subclasses aspects fragments etc
Zavala-strikes
Cayde-6 - what?
I stopped playing destiny over 2 years ago but I still find myself enthralled in your lore content, love the content and hope you don't ever stop
Is this also how the Skrank Gang returns?
THE SKRANK GANG IS STILL A THREAT GUARDIAN
I don't know what shrank gang is could I be informed
It's still a threat
@@Dead_pool_2006that skrang gang is still a threat
@@kodieherrington1019 this doesn't clarify enything
I wish that we used the veil in order to resurrect Cade and gain his memories back (maybe all 7 lives) using the veil scents it's connected to the memory of the universe. But since wishes are twisted, this might be the reason why we only see Cade in the traveler and maybe he will be the "NPC" that we talk to in the traveler. Making Crow the top pick for the new hunter vanguard leader.
Thank you for adding closed captions for those who enjoy the game. 👏🏾
I just hope that Bungle won't pull "You think you do, but really you don't" on us seeing as many want Cayde back, making him into a villain, or a vessel for one, and then killing him off after showing us that we don't want Cayde because they need to be right and we wrong, and they will make that reality.
This is actually a good theory also one that was practiced recently with the death of batman from the suicide squad game this game died instantly after doing this I am sure Bungie is not that stupid to pull a fuck you card and torture the player
Osiris discovered recently that the Witness had lost its connection to Ghosts and has no way of knowing what's happening in the outside world. I wonder why Mara and Uldren's connection would be different.
Even though I haven’t played the game in about a year it’s still interesting to hear all this lore coming together like this.
I stopped playing around the time that the witch queen was released, absolutely loved your videos throughout the years that I played (started around the Dark below) as they explained so much for me, honestly, you're the biggest reason for me to pick D2 up again and I'm so glad that you've kept making lore vids (especially with how bungie has handled the game from a personal perspective). still burnt out on the series, but the kid who loved the series wants to know how this all ends so I'll most likely pick it all back up once the final shape takes place; I've been thinking of it as my guardian going into stasis while I stop playing, but I'm ready for him to wake tf up and do his part lmao, primarily thanks to you Byf. Thanks for the 10+ years of content and keeping me looped into the lore of the game, even when I falsely thought I was ready to walk away from the Traveller xD
Cayde returns everytime bungie is in PANIC MODE 😂
My first thought after the overall story, and how Crow decided to walk first into the pale heart, is how Bungie give reminiscence of the tale of Rega and Ager, a bound nor light or darkness can cut. (linked to how the veil works and the way The Witness create the wsy to the pale heart)
It depends what part of the season this conversation happened, but if it's later, Riven has kinda softened with the addition of Tanaris recently. I wonder if it is Riven when Mara says she regrets manipulating him, and she actually was referring to what Riven did to Uldren, and that's why shes granting another wish
The lore tabs of the seasonal ships, generally, chronologically happen by the end of the season, so that would make sense.
I believe that when Riven states she will grant one last wish is only applying to the wish that she received from the Witch Queen when she was still alive. Once she grants the Which Queen's wish then she will fade away, but she is certainly willing to grant any other wishes in the meantime.
Similar thing happened to Hefnd from Warlords Ruin. The last wish he received that we know of before being killed by Lord Shaxx was from Naim. He still granted other wishes after that in death as a means to get to that point, but once her wish was granted he faded away.
I think this right here is DEFINITELY Riven, and, because of Taranis's sacrifice has learned empathy and remorse. Riven reminds me of Caprica Six from Battlestar Galactica, in that she has a fondness for her enemy that eventually leads to her bonding with them and becoming a more benevolent person in the process. I think this whole experience genuinely gave her some legitimate growth. I also think she may have more wishes in store. What we've been seeing is her Ahamkara bodily instincts being separated from her soul/spirit/ghost/whatever-- she's got no NEED to feed, so she can truly be motivated by other things. Consider that we refer to ahamkara like forces of nature. What happens when you take the nature out?
I just came here after the new cutscene and mission, really cool to see Riven not only being a little regretful, but also her being surprised at Crow’s answer. I initially assumed that this was just her checking up on something as a curiosity but it literally just came to me when I saw the title of this, and, holy shit. If this is true that ROCKS.
Also the possibility that an ahamkara that may be involved in the dlc adds a possibility that it couldn’t be Riven, and could be from one that either wants to stop the Witness from doing something to it in the Traveler, or helping the witness maybe plant something to distract us? Could be either tbh
So glad you're feeling better and that velvety smooth voice is back.
I can’t be the only that immediately got Alarm bells with the “I see Mara murmurs and her eyes shine” I went ape😂
I’ve missed byf saying the outro, I’m glad to hear it again 🙂🙂
Spoilers
Byf lore suggestion
Byf this would be an amazing lore bit to dive into, in the new lore books for the Wish-Keeper catalysts, it's revealed that Taranis was probably the Ahamkara that Albios, a warlock risen referenced a lot in D1, interacted with. I love this old connection they made and there is a ton of speculation about Albios and what he was like. And the way Taranis describes him is so compelling, like a peaceful and serene monk.
The emphasis on glowing eyes and shimmering form brought back an unsettling memory. That very first Final Shape teaser trailer where we see Ikora and Cayde, Cayde's eyes are glowing in an eerily similar way to Riven's in Last Wish (albeit blue instead of black, but of course Riven was Taken at the time). And we don't see him until _after_ Ikora speaks the words, "I wish you could have been there."
Could the Cayde we get in TFS ... be an Ahamkara in disguise?
You don't think that could have been Savathún do you?
I mean, she could have channeled wish magic through a bone.
Oh, and of course, the "I'm sorry for manipulating you" would fit as if memory serves correctly in season of the lost Savathún felt some sort of remorse
Then again that could also just apply to riven as well so :p
welcome back Byf. Glad you're feeling better!
I find it more believable that riven just has enough power to grant more wishes, depending on how much power she needs. Perhaps something like resurrecting someone is much easier to do that opening a path to the traveler, so she can afford to grant these tiny little wishes, without exhausting enough power to eventually expire after granting savathuns wish. Besides, riven said savathuns wish is the last one I will grant. That could literally mean that after that wish, she will die, and not that she only has enough power for 1 more wish
Glad to hear that your feeling better Byf, getting sick recently myself I knoa how much it sucks to deal with
Also this is a really interesting plot point proposed here, if this is REALLY how Cayde comes back than it presents a very intriguing story for us and the characters involved, namely Crow and Mara
I think it could possibly be that Riven granted US (The vanguard and guardians) one last wish. Meaning Cayde's resurrection. As the wish she grants to allow Crow passage into the traveler was Savathuns wish.
I realized the Traveller's pale heart being a place that's bigger on the inside reminds me of Dr who's Timelord science.
I believe that the wish to crow about cayde was granted then and there, and the reason this is a lore entry and not a bigger deal is because it’s one of the many smaller things that set the events of the final shape + caydes return into motion, lemme explain
1: after death, ahamkarah bones still hold a number of power. Despite riven only being able to GRANT one last wish, that doesn’t mean the effects of previous already granted wishes and their sideeffects are not still in effect. Even if it’s not riven and is indeed one of those mentioned ahamkarah that “escaped their hunters” it doesn’t matter too much because the lingering wish magic would still be potent enough, at least in the way it functions I think it would
2: the pale heart is a manifestation of light creation energy with the acashic energy of the veil, making almost a reality based on the beholder and memories of those inside, and this is what makes the whole new map in final shape and why the witness is there.
3: cayde is a big aspect of crows story and is likely on his mind quite a bit, so when crow goes into the pale heart and his will is exerted on that land (along with the witness) cayde and the tangled shore will probably be a part of that.
This also explains the landscape quote on quote “changing” as the story progresses, as we exert our and our allies will and light over the memory of the pale heart, expelling the witness for good
I think Rivens sudden turn of character during Wish and Starcrossed has pushed her into a more sympathetic, if still selfish, mindset.
In the event this is Riven disguised as Mara, which she has done before, I think it would be a really great twisting of her guiding Crow, or rather, the memory of Uldren, towards Cayde.
I believe that if we assume that savathuns wish was the last with riven couldve granted with her remaining power, it doesn't mess with anything. Ahamkara feed on what is and what is desired. Crow wishing that he could apologize to cayde leaves A LOT open for interpretation for riven, giving her the chance to feed on all that energy. And being reminded of Taranis and his method of granting wishes to protect the wisher and even give them more than they desire could have actually compelled riven to grant her only selfless wish. This could also have influenced the 15th wish. Instead of just allowing for one to follow the witness, she could have changed it to guarantee that one will reach the witness. Allowing Crow to be guaranteed to become our ancor.
I’m willing to believe Crow’s wish will be granted in tandem with Savathun’s. Ahamkara cannot grant their own wishes, because of the way they feed based on the gap between desire and reality. To grant your own wish would be to feed on the gap between desire and reality of yourself ie. you feed on yourself. That obviously can’t work so you die.
However, maybe granting Savathun’s wish and feeding off that, will give her just enough energy to make a supplementary wish, one requiring a lot less energy and could potentially fold into the original wish by Savathun. As another commenter writes about the possibility that when the traveler and the veil linked, it took the memory of Cayde since the veil is the repository if the universe’s memories, and that crow wishing he could tell Cayde sorry would manifest as sending him inside the traveler to talk to his memory, thereby folding the two wishes into one. Meaning Riven saying she can only grant one more wish still holds.
Why do I believe this? Well besides the multitude of hints in the ship’s lore tab like gleaming eyes, whispers, Crow saying he wishes, and the O Brother Mine. Something less obvious stuck out to me and I have the Starcrossed exotic mission to thank. Mara, who is really Riven, says “We all have our obligations.” I think the word obligation here is purposefully used. In Starcrossed, the two buffs are “Dams Gift” and “Sire’s obligation”. The Dams gift is Taranis’ wish to keep the eggs safe from harm, allowing us to keep our deal with Riven. What of the Sire’s obligation, Riven is the Sire but what is she obliged to do? Get us into the traveler? Perhaps, but the word crops up in the ship loretab as well. So two obligations? Nope, because as mentioned earlier, Riven could find a way to fold Crow’s desire into Savathun’s wish to pursue the witness, which Cayde may help us do. The developers themselves call Cayde our Virgil. So it’s not a far cry to expect Riven to slide in this little side effect. It would be some great character development and a way of Riven thanking us for being Taranis’ wish keeper.
SEVEN ahamkara . That’s all I need to point out if Bungie is setting this up
"It's only polite" fair point, got me there 😁
Man this is dope I just told my bro a smaller version of this theory the other day happy to see this video
since an Ahamkara's entire gimmick is rules lawerying the terms of the bargains they make, she did tell us she only had enough power left to grant US one more wish. The wish we put into the wall to get Crow through the portal was Savathun's wish, so Riven didn't lie, she just exploited our assumption that she meant I can only grant one more wish for anyone at all. When her eyes flash in the lore tab, that's her granting her actual final wish for Crow.
I see those words as Riven apologising to Crow for how her manipulation of him went pear shaped... like her being killed.
Damn..we've missed you...sincerest thanks to all who helped you through your own darkness..thanks for the great hard work!!!
glad to have you back Byf :)
Maybe Ikora kept one alive and in hiding in case it might ever be needed. She was "the greatest of the hunters" during the great hunt. But she's also a conflicted character at tines, so maybe she was conflicted about destroying them all.
That skybox.... I wonder if you can get to the galaxy pools from mara's throne... and vice versa
I just hope we get a lore tab or book of crow in the pale heart having a chat with caddy cause that would very intersting
It’s sad you immediately assume a lore book because that should be a cutscene but we all know bungie isn’t capable of that
@@omensoffate why you think I
Mentioned a lore tab in that sentence
Its most definitely Riven doing it since the previous week's audio message with "shaxx" talking to Mara was Shaxx actually being Riven.
Possibly, Crow's wish is so specific and so tiny that it cannot be misinterpreted. How else could Crow tell Cayde he regrets what he did if not passing through the portal into the Traveler, where time doesn't exist and all souls exists?
The whole phrasing that led to the wish that could allow a lot of "misinterpretations". He is asked if there was something in his HISTORY he could change. That alone is enough to create a time travel or regressor situation to twist the wish if it was riven and she wanted to really twist it.
Byf with the goated content as per usual 🙌🏼🙏🏻❤💕
I think that Crow is going to "turn into" Cade when he enters the portal. But just while in the Garden or wherever the portal leads.
"I wish we had a man on the other side or something" Caydes back.
Only possible cause Savathun orchestrated Cayde's death with the scorn and that devourer bullet. Thats how I think it could go.
I can see this being how Cayde comes back, and I believe it was hinted at with the trailer showing his return to the story. We've never seen someone infused with the light glow in such a way, at least not that I can recall. For Guardians it seems like an external glow, our whole body, or parts of our body, glowing the color of the powers we're using. Just plain white though? Sure it could have been just the Light since we're inside the Traveler, but looking back at Ghaul he was made of Light for a while and it still had that classic yellowish coloration to it, not pure white. Rivens spirit however, as well as wish magic, seems to be closer to a pure white or a more silvery color than the Light.
The only issue with that idea is the Traveler's Chosen exotic. It glows with the same kind of light as Cayde in the trailer after you get max stacks of gathering light. It might just be a whole metal reforged in the light kind of glow.
My guess is that it was actually one of Riven's clutch. Ahamkara are paracausal, if they can do stuff after death, its not put of the question that they can before birth. Cause and Effect have little power over paracausality.
It’s possible that the reason Riven can only grant one more wish is because she has no desire to twist the wish to enter the traveler or intends on granting herself a wish, Mr T went out because he granted his own wish. It’s likely that Riven is willing to doom herself to secure the future of her clutch.
Riven told Mara she would grant (her) one wish but said nothing about granting wishes to others. Maybe in her attempt to choose a different path Riven wanted to make amends for her manipulation of Crow and granting a last wish was her way to do it.
I feel as though Riven may be showing a twinge of compassion. She understands that she was at one point taken, and caused much more harm than she usually cares to create. Caydes death being a byproduct of her lack of control may actually weigh on her, not out of guilt maybe, but more as in "This was not done by my will, so I undo it"
Compassion, or regret, either way, Riven might not actually want Cayde dead. We never really know with Ahamkara. They just kinda vibe
My head cannon reasons for why I think this is how we see Cayde again:
1: I believe the interaction between fake Mara and Crow came after Crow allowed Tyranus to speak through him for their final conversation.
2: I think Riven, after finding out what Tyranus' final wish was, was inspired to do a selfless wish for Crow since she fucking WRECKED that dude and he still offered his voice for her final interaction with her mate.
3: It's in her best interest for Crow/all of us to succeed. Ahamkaras are chaotic beings and the Witness is HEAVILY against chaotic magic. If the Witness wins then the Ahamkaras are FOR SURE on the chopping block.
Byf listen to ikora talking to "Cayde-6" in the teaser trailer his eyes glow when she says "I wish"
cayde being resurrected and faced by crow is (what I think) is the final part of the vanguard dare making crow not only a fully formed guardian but a hunter in all of its glory
just got a voice line from rivens lair where crow admitted to petra that he "made a wish to undo all the pain he had caused." and mara says essentially "noble but it must not have been granted" dont know if anyones caught that
I believe she granted this wish for uldren (crow) as a freebie sacrificing herself for good to grant it. Riven is changing and becoming a good wish dragon before she dies for good
Not sure how this would work since she's already "dead," but I wonder if the introduction to Taranis and the manner of his demise foreshadows Riven granting her own wish - a wish to bring back Cayde - out of remorse for what she did to Crow; a wish to grant a wish?
"All of them have willingly or unwillingly put their lives on the line at moments that were critical to our success."
Critical to our success, cleaning up their mess. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. 😅
My thoughts about an outcome I thought up a while back and the theory about The Deep and who who is speaking from their. A little lengthy, but I'm just thorough with my thoughts is all.
They could have someone wish that they can grant wishes like an Ahamkara or that Riven and Taranis's whims get more sustenance from altruism in their wishes than tricks. The deal/payment for the wish is to raise and protect their whims, tell them the history between humans and Ahamkara, and how their father's altruism influenced Riven to seek a new future beside humans who also become their Guardians. Their protectors. Their family. Cayde returning, if he stays and doesn't die again, could reveal that he talked with Riven after being brought back. Told her that he'd watch after them for bringing him back. That ol' Uncle Cayde would raise them good, make sure they have a safe place in the world. That'd be sweet.
Riven and Taranis's offspring working with Guardians to face against the new baddies later in the story, the Ahamkara and powerful ancient Ascendant beings of The Deep.
My theory was the original Ahamkara feasted on the Traveler and Veil energy when they were still connected. When those two broke apart, the proto-Ahamkara went their separate ways, and evolved differently. Some followed the Traveler, some went off to find something new, and some entered the Veil. The Ahamkara trapped in The Deep of the Veil without complete physical form, their consciousnesses still present because of the Light they feasted on before. They've learned as the Veil fills, connected memories, etc. They were the ones manipulating the Witness and their people to reconnect the Traveler and Veil with promises of a Final Shape, a wish at the Pale Heart. They'll pull the biggest Ahamkara wish feast when what the Witness thinks will happen doesn't change the universe the way they expect. It releases the Veiled Ahamkara and the Ascendant beings that were trapped their. The Final Shape is a pathway, a means, the key for them to escape the deep and take up physical form once again. The whims will be too young to do anything grand to fight/protect us, but they could give smaller wishes on occasion working together to hold back a riding tide of threats in the future.
Okay I'm done. Just my imagination storytelling for fun. I love games with a lot of lore and a growing story.
I’d once thought Mara was too unassailable and smart to be able to open up more as she had now. That steely will, and stone face of a powerful and mystical Monarch, a mysterious Queen that seemed to be ten paces ahead of everyone else. But, I suppose all it took, was Uldren’s death, and others reflecting her choices back at her to realize the consequences were on her. Savathun and Riven may have played a hand in Uldren’s end, but Mara was the one that put Uldren on that path. He’d have never traveled to the Black Garden if she hadn’t emotionally abused him all those years. He’d wanted love, trust, and respect. Only to receive those things after he’d died, and when Crow took Uldren’s place. Savathun outsmarting Mara, must’ve dealt a blow to her pride, no longer knowing she was the smartest and most cunning. Mara then, had meant her match, humbled by another Queen, and then, there was the Witness, who’d showed Mara, that all her sacrifices and efforts, may be in vain, that even she, the great and powerful Queen Mara Sov, could not hope to defeat it alone. That she, could even join it, in the Final Shape. While this shook her to she core, and she doesn’t rattle easily, we finally saw her open up, be more of a sister than the stone hearted queen we’d known her as. For the first time in a long time, Mara feared not only for herself, but her legacy. Yet, she’d stood steadfast, and again, when the Light of the Traveler, and Darkness of the Witness asked her to choose sides, she choose humanity. And to avenge not just what we’d lost in the Collapse, but to avenge all those who were put to the slaughter by the Witness and its minions. Mara and Crow have certainly changed, almost as if, this second collision of Light and Dark, once more, instigated a change in them.
I think it was this moment that brought Cayde Six back but already in the Pale Heart as Ahamkara can’t bring people back to life in the same way as guardians. And Cayde as a lightbearer so I’m sure that had something to do with it
So in the trailer where we originally found out Cayde is "back", he's got a bit of a "ghostly glow" coming off of him. What if Riven(or whatever Ahamkara is interacting with Crow here) brings Cayde back during this final battle, and Crow gets to express his regret, but the "twist" of this wish, that Ahamkara then forces Cayde to raise Ace, point it at Crow, and speaks through him, saying(or whispering) "Your wish.. has been granted." and killing Crow and Glint? Feels VERY Ahamkara wish-twist imo.
Riven has been SALIVATING for this moment and either Petra or Crow was gonna give her the ammo she needed. I can’t remember for certain but, one possible surviving Ahamkara was that one from the Dreaming City. The one who massacred a group of celebratory Awoken by letting them walk off a cliff in the Garden of Esila while they laughed and danced and others watched on from across the way in horror. I know they flew off into the night after but, I can’t recall if anyone ever caught them in the hunt.
No I'm pretty sure that one ultimately was killed 🤔
I have a feeling this was Riven trying to make right with Crow because she remarked how his and Mara's changes touched her.
Brief thought. It's possible Riven granted this wish as a final gesture as she passed. A way to thank Mara for years of "Friendship," apologize to Uldren for the years of manipulation, and thank all of us for seeing to her clutch. One last thank you on her way out the door in the only way she knows how...
Or, ya know, she's a hell and a bit of a nutter butter and either there's going to be a cost, or Cayde is going to seek revenge on the other side of the portal. I would postulate that she intends Cayde to end Uldren to frustrate or plans, but that endanger her clutch and thus seems unlikely
I hope that once Crow goes into the Traveler and sees Cayde they have their talk he apologizes and Cayde just says " what's done is done and oh by the way you killed me sooooo you're hunter vanguard now byyyyeee" 😂😂😂
I'm pretty sure it has to be Riven. Unless her clutch starts to hatch as the final beat of the seasonal story, us completing Wish-themed weekly challenges in the near future post-season would suggest Riven still has Wish Magic left in her.
Happy new year byf 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Oh come on guys, it's right there in the name!
it was, clearly...
The G-Man.
I think it'd be very compelling if Riven granted this wish as her own. That could kill her, sure. But what if this is her way of making it up to Crow/Uldren? Idk, I just get this feeling from all the talk about how Mara and Crow changed... About how Taranis acted... Just thought it would be somewhat touching if it did turn out that way. Like she sought Crow out specifically to figure out what he really wished for and granted it benevolently.
I really hope Cayde isnt here as a "Hi, Im here to help with this one fight, then Im gone!" As I love Nathan Fillion and his work. I was so happy to see his video announcing his return. They made such a big deal of it, it would suck for this 1 paycheck and hes gone.
cayde is not resurrected. Rather we could think of the travelers realm like heaven and cayde is just one of the souls there.
Mara-thon
Crow-ta