11:34 yes I wholeheartedly agree! DS2 did it right with attunement increasing casting speed! I will forever be confused as to why they reverted it back in DS3 and ER
I kinda like it because I end up doing a pyro spellsword type build so I end up leveling dex eventually anyway, but yeah it doesn't make a ton of sense
@@idontwantahandlethough Still DS2 Att scaling was much better than dex scaling. Attunement not only gives you casting speed, but also: spell slots, extra castings for each spell, magic resistance, agility (i-frames when rolling).
@@ramen3643 Elden Ring butchered the Mind (Attunement) stat. All it does now is provide FP and a miniscule amount of Madness and Sleep resistance. Mind should be the Endurance stat for Casters. It makes no sense to tie Cast Speed to another primary stat like Dexterity from a balance and common sense perspective. Having Dexterity tied to Cast Speed is as stupid as having Faith tied to Equip Load. People would be frothing at the mouth over a stupid change like that, but that is exactly what Casters are stuck with.
@@grantkelly6750Pyro/sorcerer is also fun. Pyro glove in left hand and Blue flame sword in right hand for slicing and its strong attack also casts sorceries (mostly soul greatsword). I should farm lots of spice to bring unleash magic down to 30 int for more fun.
I like the limited casts per spell. It gives more of a reason to use the lower tier spells instead of it being replaced by the upgraded version (like using both soul spear and crystal soul spear simultaneously), at least for me
Good point. Also, I think Fromsoft is a lot more generous with the amount of casts you get in dark souls 1 and 2 compared to the other games where your mp bar is practically drained to smithereens once you use a big boy spell like firestorm or something powerful.
Also don't forget that limited casts per spells also is better for co-op/invaders. As FP flasks get halfed in DS3/ER, so if your not the host your max spell casts get cut in half in the FP system.
I think it also makes you use a wider variety of spells, as if you have an FP bar, you can simply stick to a few most efficient spells, and you're not incentivized to switch it up continuously. If you have limited spell casts, it makes you play more strategically with more variation, as it's much easier to see how many casts you have left, and you also get LOADS of casts for smaller smells (souls arrow, combustion). So it feels like you have your weak go-to spells, and then for special attacks or for big enemies, use your casts of forbidden sun or crystal soul spear. While with FP you'd likey be using the same spells they whole time, efficient somewhat high damage
Correction/Addition on the DS2 information: You CAN buy infinite Amber Herb for infinite casts for spells - In the Base game. I highly disagree with the placement of ds2, since the pyromancies on that game are much more interesting than Demon Souls and Dark Souls 1.
In Dark Souls pyromancy includes things like poison and boulders because it's not technically pyromancy the way we intend it, it was just the easiest way to translate it for western audiences. Pyromancy is about manipulating the fire inherent to various aspects world, which, in a world literally fueled by a big flame, means everything. It's more accurately to call them "nature spells" than simple pyromancy.
I like limited casts of spells more than mana bar for two main reassons. First is that I do not depend on consumables in order to use an offensive option, and second, i like it more because it forces me to use more different spells instead of just spaming the same broken spell over and over
Limited casting does indeed spice things up, for example, in DS1. Miracle builds have to make every type of lightning spears count, ds3, you don’t need great lightning spear in the slightest, it’s a pain to get through covenants (thank you Elden Ring 🙏) and sunlight spear is much better Edit: sweet Jesus, 43 Forbidden Suns???
Yeah or in general weapons with pure elemental damage the only pure elemental type damage we have is holy I think and holy tbh is kinda meh also I never understood why the gave the moonlight gs split damage
I used to prefer mp over each spell having it's own finite number of casts. However, now I prefer finite casts because mp makes me just cast the most efficient spell
DkS2 pyro gets underestimated pretty much everywhere online; especially when it is compared with hexes (which is ironically the game where hexes are the strongest they’ve ever been).
DS2 pyro and magic are even better than DS3 pyro/magic. DS3 pyro are too slow for faster, improved enemies which are most of them. DS3 upgraded enemies speed and aggressiveness while still having the same casting speed for player character as DS1!!!! That's why they gave you sage ring early in the game. Also, casting speed scales with Dex!?!?! In DS2 casting speed scales with Attunement, Wich also gives you: spell slots, extra castings for each spell, agility (Wich gives you more I frames when rolling) on top of casting speed. Many spells that do no damage in DS3 as fire whip, are extremely powerful in DS2. Ofc he talks about using dark sorcs because you level up Int and Faith as a positive, but he doesn't say the same for DS2. So, git gud and level Attunement, casul!
@@osvaldoprado9906Me when a mf just be lying but you listen anyways. Pyro IS NOT too slow for the enemy speed of DS3. At this point I question if you just weren’t that good or if you’re baiting.
Definitely does not have the most diverse when it lacks Power Within, Carthus Beacon, Rapport, Black Flame, or any pure physical damage pyro. It added many of its own but also took a good number of them away for some reason.
I like limited casts more mainly cause my only experience with mana was in DS3 where you give up estus for ashen estus. Even if use restore items can't be bought infinitely in 2 there's so many of them scattered throughout the world that even if you use 2 or 3 per boss fight you'll still probably have a fair bit left. So when you do DS2 miracles don't even worry about running out and go ham on the herbs cause they make the earlygame of that run so much better.
Personally, the reason why I prefer attunement cast over mana is because some basic spells are just extremely op and its probably better to put a cap on how much you can use it. In Elden Ring when I made my sorcerer build, theres literally no reason for me to use any other spells either than carian slicer since its more mana efficient, literally has 0 recovery time, insane speed when compared to every other spells. If i’m limited to something like 40 hits with carian slicer then i might be incline to use some other spells that isn’t slicer. The same can be said for ds3, for my pyro run its just chaos bed vestige and nothing else. I mean. If you have mana in ds2 you’ll probably be able to cast like 20 forbidden suns before you run out, or cast like 10 (pre nerf) soul geysers. That is enough to kill any boss in the game. Its awesome having absolutely fucking bonkers spells but it should be balanced by limiting its uses otherwise you’ll just dedicate all your mana bar to that single spell that is more efficient than anything else.
Thank you I completely agree with mana over limited casts. When I found out you get 1 cast of those high tier spells. Then you gotta use a *very* slow limited consumable. After just 1 use!! If I wanna use it again even if my other spells aren’t low. I really felt the pyros locked to late game, when I saw chaos orbs was locked in NG+2 (not even ascetics work). That just killed it for me. In DS3 and ER you’re provided so much more flexibility. I don’t have to go out of my way to grab multiple.
Elden Ring hands down, I love Dark Souls, especially DS3, but Elden Ring is just better version, same with weapon arts/Ashes of War, Sorceries, and Miracles/Incantations, combat is better too, dual wielding any weapon is sick. I do miss the Dark damage and spells tho. Also, spell slots being found as items and not tied to Mind/Attunement is way better, just with casting speed scaled with Attunement/Mind instead of Dexterity
Never heard someone be so confident in being wrong 💀. People still in the honeymoon phase even after 1 year of release smh. Just accept it's not Fromsoftware's finest work.
@@Sadistic_77 it's impossible to be right or wrong with something subjective lol, of course someone as dense and toxic as you probably can't understand that. Go back to Dark Souls or Bloodborne if that's what you prefer, I don't give a shit one way or another.
@@Sadistic_77 You are right, elden ring is not from's finest work. It can still be a lot better. But, elden ring is 100% their finest work to date. Even a long time after elden ring released, DS3 was still my favourite game. But having recently played both again, and watching much more elden ring content, the game is just so much above every other fromsoft game that it's crazy. Yes, some of the other games have some things that are probably better than in ER, but on average, as a whole game? Elden ring is just the best. If you, however, prefer shorter, non open world games, then there's nothing wrong with that, just don't trash elden ring for reasons that are only personal.
@@filiplass7442to be fair the opposite can also be said, if you like large open world games you’ll likely think Elden Ring is better but it’s still not objective. You can criticise any game for personal reasons as it isn’t factual that one game is better than another, it is based personal opinions.
@@filiplass7442 You do realize that EVERY SINGLE reason you gave as to why Elden Ring is "better" than the other Souls games is also 100% personal, right? ROFL. I don't know know why people are so confident in making absolute claims about subjectivity/objectivity without fully grasping those concepts in the first place.
In the beginning i liked limited castes more because in ds 1 I used my pyromancies more as an add on to my melee build. But when i played elden ring i felt I had to commit harder because you have to split your healing and your mana flasks and have to put points into mind
Putting points in a stat that gives you more castings was always the same in all games. In Ds1, 2 and 3 you level Attunement the same way as mind: so you have more spells to cast.
Personally I'd switch DS2 with DS3 and move Demon's Souls under both. For DS3, requiring int and faith would be fine except they both scale up to 40 in a game where getting 100 levels before DLC is hard enough already plus needing vigor, attunement, endurance, vitality, dexterity if you want casting speed and/or a dex scaling weapon, etc. Plus, as mentioned, most of the spells ain't that good. Additionally on top of that the castings are more limited due to spell recovery being tied to your estus. For DS2, I don't think the few negatives outway the positives enough to put it that low, plus with attunement increasing casting speed and agility it means you get a lot more flexibility in builds. And Demon's Souls at the bottom just because you only get like 3 spells per newgame and to get almost all of those spells you have to go through areas and bosses that heavily resist, or are immune to your fire damage.
DS2 has the best spellcasting system in the series by far, even better than Elden Ring. (Though Elden Ring did the spells themselves slightly better than DS2.) Attunement determined Cast Speed Attunement determined Spell Slots Herbs Spices Waters Ascetics for NG+ Spells Hexes Catalyst Infusions Hybrid Catalysts Catalyst Shields/Weapons Iron King Crown No Damage Stax Reliance Spell Merchants useful Post-NG Duplicate Spells are useful R2 Catalyst Bonk did semi-useful damage Non-Regen Healing Spells useful in Coop Seriously, coming from DS2 to DS3 as a Caster main was a MASSIVE disappointment. Unfortunately, Elden Ring carried over a bunch of the terrible DS3 Caster mechanics, which made playing as a Caster less enjoyable overall.
@@Alkor44 Having to search for Memory Stones for Spell slots and having Cast Speed tied to Dexterity is a constant annoyance to me. Attunement was completely gutted out during its transfer to Mind. The only hypothesis I have for Memory Stones even existing, is that Ash of Wars may have been Martial "Spells" at one point before the idea was scrapped. Yet decided to continue to lock Spell Slots as a middle finger toward Casters to give further support towards Spellblade builds.
Having played w pyro in DS1/3/ER and never getting to play a game where cast speed scales w attunement I 100% agree that it should be that way instead of dex. I hate making a casting build and feeling like I NEED to pair it w a dex weapon, especially in ER. Let me run a big ass sword infused w magic or fire and also build for cast speed without over leveling/compromising!
I think DS1 has the best pyromancer just because you dont have to worry about the stupid mana, and since you have spell slots instead of mana, you can have variety, once your strong pyromancies run out you try with other ones, in DS3 or Elden Ring, if you run out of mana, you chug an estus flask and keep casting the same strong spell (also you have HALF the flasks a mele have even if you're hit harder bc for some reason now caster gear means you receive more damage)
I haven‘t tried pyro in all the games yet but I can definitely say that Chaos Storm fucked shit up in the good old days with full weapon upgrade invasions on any level ) Also I really appreciate your videos, they’re entertaining and enjoyable all around! Makes waiting for a certain DLC a bit easier.
Limited casts allow you not to get into a position where big spells dont take all of your resources to use other spells plus your never in a situation where your short a cast because you don't have like 3 more mp, you simply know how many uses and you strategize how best to use that. Also i read others put it makes earlier spells still useful longterm and not instantly replaced. DS imo had the best spell system.
Honestly Pyromancy was so fun in Dark Souls 3 that i'm pretty sure it made Elden Ring worse for me by extension, fire damage is goated in DS3 with it straight up crippling some of the most annoying enemies in the game, and the stat distribution between int and faith while dark and chaos infusions ALSO scale with int and faith essentially means you'll never come across a situation you're not equipped to tackle, you can even lean into some sorceries and miracles too if you feel so inclined. I also really liked the fact you never needed to spec into stats to use and maximize your damage with pyromancies in the first game too, it kinda helped sell the idea that you were pulling from some sort of inner natural power, since that was what Pyromancy's were.
@@ebm4205 Yeah that weapon alone gave me an additional 400 hours of game time in a game I was largely getting tired of at the time, being able to true combo into black flame and catch panic rolls with Chaos bed vestiges was amazing.
Limited casts work on a simplified magic system. But when you start putting magic into other stuff, lile weapon arts , and other consumables. Yeah a magic bar makes more sense. Tho in my opinion in the early games was necesary as it prevented players from relying solely on those.
one thing to note with Dark Souls 2 is that fire scaling maxes out at 60 int/faith TOTAL. This allows you to reach the softcap on a dark 30/30 build, or a 50 int/faith softcap sorcery/miracle build respectively if you just put 10 points in the other stat. Pyromancy is just usable at full effectiveness to any other caster so fire kinda acts as a back up damage for anything that's immune to your main damage. Also I think the low casts and high stamina costs were probably meant to balance out the fact anyone can use pyromancy, but these nerfs would have made more sense if pyros didn't have scaling like in ds1, with all the new downsides together it's a bit too much
Profaned Flame and Chaos Orb are definitely not mid. Profaned Flame is great setup if you hit the enemy simultaneously with another cast. Also against a lot of the mobs it just causes them to fall on their back. Chaos orb doesn’t travel as fast as CBV but if you’re fighting a larger enemy. Since it creates a pool of lava after the initial hit it’ll cause more damage and stagger.
I prefer having fp because then you can have as many casts of a spell as you consider necessary: if you don't think you need to use one of your spells, then you automatically have more casts for your other spells
I don't like fp because you can have as many casts as you want for one spell, you have to sacrifice flasks for fp and you have to waste more points on atunement. In ds2 I always had like 5 spells to choose from and I didn't have to sacrifice any flasks to use them
I like limited casts more because Vancian spellcasting reminds me of the roots Dark Souls has in traditional roleplaying games. It helps reinforce that mages have to carefully plan ahead and prepare themselves for the upcoming challenge. One compromise I think would be neat is if traditional sorceries (arcane magic in D&D terms) used the Vancian system with limited casts, while incantations and pyromancies (divine magic in D&D terms) could use a bar. Similar to how wizards prepare all their spells in advance with one dedicated slot per spell cast, whereas sorcerers and warlocks have a narrower selection of spells, but each slot can be flexible on which spell it's used to cast.
Limited cast enjoyer here. The primary reason I like it is because I don’t have to drink blue flasks. In DS2 I can run like 100 soul arrows for 3 slots, while in DS3 one bar gets me like 10 and then I have to drink a flask. When a spell takes half your bar in FP it is like having two casts but instead of draining half the casts of one spell it drains the casts of everything.
For a bit I did think I preferred immitted casts more for a bit. My problem was actually with ashen estus flasks. This mainly pertains to Darksouls 3. For a long time I liked the idea of just slotting in a little bit of magic(sorcery, pyromancy, miracles). However with how ashen estus flasks worked it really seemed to and likely did encouraged a one or the other approach. What I would have liked is having no ashen estus flasks, and that instead normal estus flasks would restore health as usual but also restore a flat amount of fp plus a portion based on your fp stat. This of course would need rebalancing such as reducing the number of estus flasks you get and weakening the maximum potential that magic could have. Bellow is an example of how the fp part of this would work. This would not be improved by Undead Bone Shards, but could be improved by rings or other things that use an equipment slot. So 20 fp = restore 20fp 30 fp = restore 20fp 50 fp = restore 40fp 70 fp = restore 50fp 90 fp = restore 60fp (I have not played darksouls3 or any of the other in a long time the fp numbers are not accurate just to serve an example.) The intended end result being that you can dabble in magic and magic users are still encouraged to get into combat as if they use an estus flask just to get fp they are getting a smaller benefit. This would work well with weapon arts since melee builds still have a reason to invest in fp and they don't need to sacrifice an estus flask to restore it. It also adds an extra factor in deciding if you want to consume an estus flask. Before working out this system that suits my preferences more, I had favoured the limited casts system since investing in one spell slot and getting a weak spell seemed to add a lot of fun utility. I do think that Darksouls3 was a great game without this, this is purely what I personally would have preferred.
I prefer the limited casts only because I hate having to divide up my HP flasks for FP flasks. If Elden Ring had a spice equivalent but you could only carry a limited amount, it would be so much better.
I prefer limited casts because it gives me a bit more freedom in how I want to play. With an MP bar, you have to choose between using a weaker spell several times, or a stronger spell once or twice. But with limited casts, you can use both of them a set number of times, provided you have enough slots. I also think limited casts made acquiring new spell slots more exciting, since you weren’t just increasing your moveset, but your longevity as well, because you’re now less likely to run out of casts.
i prefer limited cast, i think FP should be reserved for weapon arts going forward. I understand the really strong spells typically get limited to 1 cast and that can be frustrating but id rather that than being able to spam it like its some lvl 1 fireball tbh. Like in elden ring I am throwing moons like theyre baby fireballs just bc i have the FP to do it. I think itd be interesting to introduce upgrading spells (for next fromsoft game obv) similar to a titanite shard/somber stone system to alleviate that problem of single cast via upgrading the spell directly. though that might sound like yet another headache of a treasure hunt to some ppl
Mana bar guy. Started with that system, and i like it. Limited casts always causes me to not use a spell when I really need to. Also, as dungeons get longer, those limited casts make it harder to progress, unless you can buy more copies, which means far more grinding.
To oversimplify it, I like limited casts more than MP based casts becuase I can use soul arrow 40 times without infringing on my ability to use Crystal Soul Spear. When all my spells share the same resource I feel pressured to only use the powerful ones and save it specifically for them.
I prefer limited casts because in demon souls through ds2 during my magic play through d I never felt like a single time that I really ran out of casts so not having too use an item too replenish the bar felt like an advantage too me since I never ran out of casts
To me, the biggest thing holding DS2 back is the insane amount of stamina used to cast a spell, and stamina recovery is just so slow in that game. You also have to level up int, faith, attunement, ADP, and vigor to have a decent build
While casting attached to attunement makes more sense, having it tied to dex is an artificial way to make mage builds more stat hungry to force them to be squishy in pvp.
I'd disagree, my order would go ds1, elden ring, ds3 then ds2. Ds2 pyromancies hit super hard, very versatile, the spell casts is fine because the items plus the old iron king crown refunds 20% of casts every few mins. And they didnt "ruin" chaos storm, they balanced it to be less overpowered
Attunement has always been better its more versatile; people who say it makes the game easier dont understand attunement is your stamina bar for magic that has to be replenished rather than a limited cast of an op spell
DS3 is my favorite because Chaos Bed Vestiges is THAT good. I have a level 43 character I use for co-op and vestiges allowed that character with a +4 pyro glove to clear the entire game.
If you wanted to talk power I’d put DS1 at #1 by far but if you count variety I’d put DS3 #1. Just counting the red and black flame spells. You have catch flame which is more like combustion but they got rid of black flame, no fan flame, chaos orb, sacred flame, Rapport, Iron Flesh, Warmth, Carthus Beacon, etc. The utility really went way down and no casting weapon was unfortunate.
The reason why DS2 pyro is so mid is cuz DS1 pyro is too broken, so they knee-jerk hard nerf it in the later game. But then ppl complain about pyro being weak, so they buff it again in DS3/ER.
DS2 pyromancy deserves to be way higher. It was balanced more towards PVP. A nuke projectile like Forbidden Sun should have high requirements and drawbacks because of how easy it was to land as a roll catch or with setups like Lingering Flame, Soulmass, etc.
Magic is so fun in Elden Ring I always went strength or quality in Darks souls 1-3 but Elden ring made me use so many Incantations Strength-Faith is the most fun build
No I think limited casts was vastly better. Finding a second version of a spell was actually a really big deal in DS1 and DS2 whereas in DS3 and ER it means nothing. Think it also helped with balancing.
I think people like limited casts per spells because of the unique gimmicks it brings. It makes you think of what spells to prepare and cast Casting one spell a whole lot won’t drain up your entire pool of resources Variety is more important with lesser spells being more reliable thanks to having more casts It gives you an insensitive to find more copies of the same spell so you can stack them I think Dark Souls 2 nailed this gimmick as it made it where attunment increases uses per spell, it was easy to gather enough spices if you knew what you were doing, and the reason I think some spells have so little casts was to mimic how they functioned in previous games. Firestorm costed a lot of MP in Demon’s Souls, where in Dark Souls it used MULTIPLE uses every cast. But really I like both casting systems, the uses and MP. Plus I kinda like how DS2’s useage mechanics feels like D&D’s Vancian magic system. And as one last note: I think rewards that can only be unlocked in New Game aren’t all that bad. It encourages new play throughs of the game with the same character but in harder difficulty. DS2 did NG+ the best with how it really changes up the game and how you can use items to make specific ares NG+.
Ds2 has the most creative spell casting out of all the games, including pyromancies. The fixed spell uses was a much better system that promoted variety. Also having each element have ots own scaling was also a much better system that promoted diversity, instead of everything being tied to the scaling of the casting tool as it is on Elden Ring. Each chime had different scaling for casting lightining and dark, and you could infuse it to specialize further, and each element was tied to leveling other stats. In Elden Ring, the element does not matter, just the casting tool (with the exception of passive bonuses, which in most cases result in using casting tools as stat sticks). That fact makes casting in Elden Ring way more shallow. DS2 to had the overall best, most interesting and most balanced system.
@@youwy well you said that dark souls 3 had more pyros but less good ones when even tho there are only few good ones compared to all of them, its the same amount of good ones as in ds1
5:18 The ONLY reason I like limited casts more is due to the existence of blue kool-aid Having to get rid of your healing to do magic heavily discourages people from trying out the build This is amplified by the amount of magic related items that decrease your health, increase damage taken, and more For experienced players it’s a way better system, but for the majority of players who will only go through a game once or twice it is insanely discouraging and kinda dumb
Sacred Flame is not mid 😤 my favorite pyromancy in the game. It's so cool. Tbf it does suck against stuff you can't grab. You can kill the library crystal sage with it when you first see him by just locking him in place with the grab lol. Wish we got a fire version of it in ER but we got the madness one.
Never played Demon's Souls but if their fire spells are that strong and shares build with other type of spells that are also good then I would put that as number 1 tbh. But then the vid would be called "Which Game has the Best Spells" and I got a feeling ER would still be winning or at least be second place
I liked pyromancies in DS3. I didnt try them in DS1 to their full potential. In DS2 they were really fun, especially the one where you cast a flame inside an enemy and it explodes, but I dont like how I need to consume items constantly because I dont have enough casts.
@@craftihlow69 Ahh. Well, when you have the chance the Crown is well worth grabbing for casters. The 20% spell recovery every 2 minutes is a huge game changer for casters.
Ah yes, one of the best pyromancies, f̶i̶r̶e̶ ̶S̶o̶u̶l̶ ̶V̶o̶r̶t̶e̶x̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶D̶S̶2 Chaos Bed Vestiges Ignite is my all time favorite fire spell in a From Soft game, with Flame Swathe as a close second. One thing that can't be understated for Demon's Souls is that you actually cast from your hand vs the rest where you need a (long) wooden stick
I think limited cast is a good idea for the exact reason demon souls is low You're forced to use all your spells, forcing you to manage them for what you need at the moment, instead of spamming the same spell over and over again, and I feel like you're rewarded for playing the good spell at the right moment
The reason limited casts of Ds1/Ds2 was better is simple - it does not force magic builds to sacrifice precious healing Flasks, with the problem being most egregious in Ds3 where magic builds just straight up sucked compared to pure str/dex and quality builds simply because they needed way more stat investments for less return, on top of healing tax. Limited casts also encouraged better resource management imo, where you would use your plentiful magic arrow for trash, but you kept that sweet crystal spear for something dangerous
Also, the spell slots as a mechanic were more substantial with limited casts; the more slots you have, the better mage you were. In DS3 you can have only one slot used out of your 12 slots and cast the most powerful spell until your mana bar depletes.
@@osvaldoprado9906 Also - Also - there is that discrepancy where melee builds don't need to awkwardly drink a flask every time stamina bar drops to zero. That'd absolutely break the flow of combat, wouldn't it?
Idc what anyone says DeS fire spray is the most fun spell to use in any of these games. It's like playing a 3rd person shooter but you're the only one with a gun
I prefer limited spells because their's no mana estus I need to split my normal Estus between. You ever try playing a mage who doesnt split their estus? you get like 3 casts of Soul Spear or something then you're all out. With limited casts it doesnt matter if I run out of Soul Spears, I got 30 soul arrows. You just have more to cast without a mana bar
I never felt more powerful starting a souls game than I did as a pyromancer in DS3, they pyros in DS3 are just so fucking broken. Elden Rings pyros are great but imo DS3’s pyros feel stronger
Wouidnt really concider what elden ring has as pyronancy wlden ring prolly has the worst pyromancy selection from ny game witch is crazy with the sheer amount of items every other class has your only option is to be a faith biuld that uses a very select few pyro incantations how ever the more than made up for it with everything else
So I will do my best to explain why limited casts are the superior system(In my humble opinion). First its important to understand the reason for both systems and how the inclusion of each system effects the behavior of the player. Note: for limited casts I will be using the Dark souls 1 system and for Mana I will be using mainly Elden ring though it also applies to Dark souls 3. I will not be using Demon souls since its mana system is like many other systems in the game undercooked. I also will not be using Dark souls 2 since that games limited cast system is just god awful. Both systems exist in order to restrict the number of spells the player can cast. Mana does this by having resource bar that all spells utilize. Each spell has a mana cost weaker spells have a small mana cost which allows players to use more of them while powerful spells have large mana costs letting players only cast them a handful of times. To accommodate the fact that all spells pull from the same resource players are given mana flasks that restore mana(duh); the number of flasks a player can have is finite and the more flasks a player has for recovering mana the less flasks they have for recovering health. Limited casts accomplishes this goal by assigning each spell with a designated number of casts which once used up prevents the player from casting that spell. Similar to mana the weaker spells have a greater number of casts allowing player to use them more often while the stronger spells have fewer casts which again limits how often the player can use them. If a player wants to have more casts for a powerful spell they can, all that they would need is another copy of the spell and the required number of attunement slots to hold it. Now the benefits of the mana system is that 1. you are able to use the same spell as many times as you like so long as you have mana and 2.......... there really isn't any other benefit or at least I can't think of one. you see with the mana system spell casts are now all about mana efficiency, you might have 20 different spells that can damage enemies but if one spell can kill an enemy in the same number of casts as the others but for less mana then that is only spell you should use when facing that enemy. for example in my Elden ring play through I have around 20 different spells but I only use like 7 since the others are either gimmicks or cost to much mana. of those 7 spells 4 of them are basically the same but with minor differences in power and cost. I have glintstone shard, great glintstone shard, swift glintstone shard, and night comet. why do i have 3 different kinds of glintstone shards? because with limited mana every point counts and if i can kill the same enemy in 2 shots with swift glintstone shard as glintstone shard then thats saves me 4 mana and over the course of a long dungeon that adds up. I have a bunch of other cool magic spells but again they take alot more mana to use which limits the number of enemies i can kill. limited cast doesn't have this issue. Yes you are limited in how many times you can use your favorite spell and your are really limited if that spell happens to be really powerful (only 3 wrath of god casts qq). but in exchange you are free from having to worry about what spell is most efficient in each situation. It doesn't matter if that black knight takes 5 souls arrows to kill instead of 4 greater souls arrows as using those 4 greater soul arrow cast does not change how many cast I have for my other spells. now unfortunately in Dark souls 1 sorceries are rather restrictive in damaging spell so its really the miracles and pyromancies that benefit the most from this system. There are also other things like how boss fights are effected by either system but its around midnight and I need to sleep. hopefully this is coherent enough and you can understand why some people prefer limited casts over mana.
DS1. You can't beat zero requirement and a metric fuckton of damage cuz the maxed out flame is about as good as the best staffs in mag. Adjust without any stats, works with dusk crown and the dragoncrest ring. Ridiculously broken.
was very surprised to see elden ring ranked 1. for me personally, whilst it does have some bangers (catch flame, giantsflame), it is overall such a stripped down version of dark souls 3. 1. no visual pyromancers flame. just doesnt look as cool weilding random seals 2. no catalysts or many pyro weapons or aow at all. whats especially sad is pyro adjacent weapons like giants braid, magma blade scale worse with faith than the other stats! wtf how did we go from ds3 having dozens of cool ass fire weapons to just having flaming strike (and a nerfed flame of the redmane). and dont they both scale better with strength? 3. lack of all the pvp utility spells. black serpent, sacred flame, profaned flame, surge flame is here but its terrible. especially in comparison to glintstone/carian builds who have a dozen spells and themed weapon for each scenario. how is there 4 variations of phalanx spells but pyro just has fell god? both 2 and 3 make pyro builds much more 1 dimensional overall. giantsflame is still incredibly fun, but miyazaki pls save us with the dlc
I misread this as pregnancy ranked
I wish
I just know your search history looks crazy 😂
Who has the best pregnancy in all souls game?! 🗣️
@@frizky5272curse rotted greatwood
@@frizky5272 That one woman in bloodborne
11:34 yes I wholeheartedly agree! DS2 did it right with attunement increasing casting speed! I will forever be confused as to why they reverted it back in DS3 and ER
I kinda like it because I end up doing a pyro spellsword type build so I end up leveling dex eventually anyway, but yeah it doesn't make a ton of sense
well elden ring did that with dexterity
Agreed. Magic sub-stats/stats need to be tied to their own stats.
@@idontwantahandlethough
Still DS2 Att scaling was much better than dex scaling. Attunement not only gives you casting speed, but also: spell slots, extra castings for each spell, magic resistance, agility (i-frames when rolling).
@@ramen3643
Elden Ring butchered the Mind (Attunement) stat.
All it does now is provide FP and a miniscule amount of Madness and Sleep resistance.
Mind should be the Endurance stat for Casters. It makes no sense to tie Cast Speed to another primary stat like Dexterity from a balance and common sense perspective.
Having Dexterity tied to Cast Speed is as stupid as having Faith tied to Equip Load. People would be frothing at the mouth over a stupid change like that, but that is exactly what Casters are stuck with.
DS2 had the best pyromancies. Hiding the proximity explosion spell inside of a warmth heal to trick hosts and invaders was so fun.
I agree. Also, Outcry, Fire Snake, Flame Swathe, and Forbidden Sun will always remain among some of my favourites!
I dont go so far and say it has the best, but its for sure not on the last place but rather high up.
Pyro/hex build is one of the most fun builds ive tried
@@grantkelly6750 DS2 build variety is through the roof, so much different stuff to combine.
@@grantkelly6750Pyro/sorcerer is also fun. Pyro glove in left hand and Blue flame sword in right hand for slicing and its strong attack also casts sorceries (mostly soul greatsword).
I should farm lots of spice to bring unleash magic down to 30 int for more fun.
I like the limited casts per spell.
It gives more of a reason to use the lower tier spells instead of it being replaced by the upgraded version (like using both soul spear and crystal soul spear simultaneously), at least for me
Good point. Also, I think Fromsoft is a lot more generous with the amount of casts you get in dark souls 1 and 2 compared to the other games where your mp bar is practically drained to smithereens once you use a big boy spell like firestorm or something powerful.
Also don't forget that limited casts per spells also is better for co-op/invaders. As FP flasks get halfed in DS3/ER, so if your not the host your max spell casts get cut in half in the FP system.
I think it also makes you use a wider variety of spells, as if you have an FP bar, you can simply stick to a few most efficient spells, and you're not incentivized to switch it up continuously. If you have limited spell casts, it makes you play more strategically with more variation, as it's much easier to see how many casts you have left, and you also get LOADS of casts for smaller smells (souls arrow, combustion).
So it feels like you have your weak go-to spells, and then for special attacks or for big enemies, use your casts of forbidden sun or crystal soul spear. While with FP you'd likey be using the same spells they whole time, efficient somewhat high damage
it's simply not fun
Correction/Addition on the DS2 information: You CAN buy infinite Amber Herb for infinite casts for spells - In the Base game. I highly disagree with the placement of ds2, since the pyromancies on that game are much more interesting than Demon Souls and Dark Souls 1.
He’s talking about use and since it’s ass in that game fool💀
Who tf is playing base game and not SOFS 💀
In Dark Souls pyromancy includes things like poison and boulders because it's not technically pyromancy the way we intend it, it was just the easiest way to translate it for western audiences.
Pyromancy is about manipulating the fire inherent to various aspects world, which, in a world literally fueled by a big flame, means everything. It's more accurately to call them "nature spells" than simple pyromancy.
I like limited casts of spells more than mana bar for two main reassons. First is that I do not depend on consumables in order to use an offensive option, and second, i like it more because it forces me to use more different spells instead of just spaming the same broken spell over and over
Yep the spell system was hands down the best in ds2
When only one slotted Forbidden Sun nets you 1 cast then you gotta eat one of your slow limited consumables, no way.
Hope we see a combination of this magic system and the mana system combined into one.
Limited casting does indeed spice things up, for example, in DS1. Miracle builds have to make every type of lightning spears count, ds3, you don’t need great lightning spear in the slightest, it’s a pain to get through covenants (thank you Elden Ring 🙏) and sunlight spear is much better
Edit: sweet Jesus, 43 Forbidden Suns???
One thing I'm really hoping for in the Elden Ring DLC is a Demon's Scar equivalent. I loved that thing
Yeah or in general weapons with pure elemental damage the only pure elemental type damage we have is holy I think and holy tbh is kinda meh also I never understood why the gave the moonlight gs split damage
hell yeah; I would love to see a fire monk curved flame sword.
Weapon Catalysts really need to return. I'm kind of shocked we don't have weapons that actually cast equipped sorceries/incantations.
gideons hammer should've been a staff that can cast both incants and sorceries,since he usues both anyways
@@proto-type3201 100%
I used to prefer mp over each spell having it's own finite number of casts. However, now I prefer finite casts because mp makes me just cast the most efficient spell
Yea every time I make a pyromacy build in ds3 I always end up using dark orb and great combustion because no other spells a really worth it.
DkS2 pyro gets underestimated pretty much everywhere online; especially when it is compared with hexes (which is ironically the game where hexes are the strongest they’ve ever been).
I've beat DS1, DS2 and DS3 with pyro builds. DS2 is the best one but you know how DS3 mains are. They always talk bad about DS2.
@@Dude357 true. Maybe when they grow up they’ll learn the awesomeness that is Best Souls 2.
Did you forget about the antimatter shotgun that is dark bead from ds1?
DS2 has the most fun and diverse pyromancies imo.
Sorceries too. i tried to run a full mage build in DS3 and I still think it was nowhere near as fun as it was in DS2.
DS2 pyro and magic are even better than DS3 pyro/magic. DS3 pyro are too slow for faster, improved enemies which are most of them. DS3 upgraded enemies speed and aggressiveness while still having the same casting speed for player character as DS1!!!! That's why they gave you sage ring early in the game. Also, casting speed scales with Dex!?!?!
In DS2 casting speed scales with Attunement, Wich also gives you: spell slots, extra castings for each spell, agility (Wich gives you more I frames when rolling) on top of casting speed.
Many spells that do no damage in DS3 as fire whip, are extremely powerful in DS2. Ofc he talks about using dark sorcs because you level up Int and Faith as a positive, but he doesn't say the same for DS2.
So, git gud and level Attunement, casul!
@@osvaldoprado9906 I agree with everything you said.
@@osvaldoprado9906Me when a mf just be lying but you listen anyways. Pyro IS NOT too slow for the enemy speed of DS3. At this point I question if you just weren’t that good or if you’re baiting.
Definitely does not have the most diverse when it lacks Power Within, Carthus Beacon, Rapport, Black Flame, or any pure physical damage pyro. It added many of its own but also took a good number of them away for some reason.
I like limited casts more mainly cause my only experience with mana was in DS3 where you give up estus for ashen estus. Even if use restore items can't be bought infinitely in 2 there's so many of them scattered throughout the world that even if you use 2 or 3 per boss fight you'll still probably have a fair bit left. So when you do DS2 miracles don't even worry about running out and go ham on the herbs cause they make the earlygame of that run so much better.
On Ds2 section Ornifex sells infinite Amber Herbs after you beat Nashandra lel
Personally, the reason why I prefer attunement cast over mana is because some basic spells are just extremely op and its probably better to put a cap on how much you can use it. In Elden Ring when I made my sorcerer build, theres literally no reason for me to use any other spells either than carian slicer since its more mana efficient, literally has 0 recovery time, insane speed when compared to every other spells. If i’m limited to something like 40 hits with carian slicer then i might be incline to use some other spells that isn’t slicer. The same can be said for ds3, for my pyro run its just chaos bed vestige and nothing else.
I mean. If you have mana in ds2 you’ll probably be able to cast like 20 forbidden suns before you run out, or cast like 10 (pre nerf) soul geysers. That is enough to kill any boss in the game. Its awesome having absolutely fucking bonkers spells but it should be balanced by limiting its uses otherwise you’ll just dedicate all your mana bar to that single spell that is more efficient than anything else.
Wait I didn’t know Smelter Demon could be poisoned. Why can a giant suit of flaming armor without lungs or organs be poisoned
MAJIK
Maybe poison mist corrodes him?
We don't question these things
It's magic.
Your question comes with the answer: because DS2 pyros are CHADS!!
Thank you I completely agree with mana over limited casts. When I found out you get 1 cast of those high tier spells. Then you gotta use a *very* slow limited consumable.
After just 1 use!! If I wanna use it again even if my other spells aren’t low. I really felt the pyros locked to late game, when I saw chaos orbs was locked in NG+2 (not even ascetics work).
That just killed it for me. In DS3 and ER you’re provided so much more flexibility. I don’t have to go out of my way to grab multiple.
ok but ds2 implementation of limited cast sucks and in no way should be used to judge whether the system is good or bad
@@Alkor44 DS2 never implemented this system, that would be DS1 lol
I loved pyros in DS3.I usually do a melee build in NG and caster builds in NG+.The pyro build with demon's scar it was so fun in pve and pvp!
Elden Ring hands down, I love Dark Souls, especially DS3, but Elden Ring is just better version, same with weapon arts/Ashes of War, Sorceries, and Miracles/Incantations, combat is better too, dual wielding any weapon is sick. I do miss the Dark damage and spells tho. Also, spell slots being found as items and not tied to Mind/Attunement is way better, just with casting speed scaled with Attunement/Mind instead of Dexterity
Never heard someone be so confident in being wrong 💀. People still in the honeymoon phase even after 1 year of release smh. Just accept it's not Fromsoftware's finest work.
@@Sadistic_77 it's impossible to be right or wrong with something subjective lol, of course someone as dense and toxic as you probably can't understand that. Go back to Dark Souls or Bloodborne if that's what you prefer, I don't give a shit one way or another.
@@Sadistic_77 You are right, elden ring is not from's finest work. It can still be a lot better. But, elden ring is 100% their finest work to date. Even a long time after elden ring released, DS3 was still my favourite game. But having recently played both again, and watching much more elden ring content, the game is just so much above every other fromsoft game that it's crazy. Yes, some of the other games have some things that are probably better than in ER, but on average, as a whole game? Elden ring is just the best. If you, however, prefer shorter, non open world games, then there's nothing wrong with that, just don't trash elden ring for reasons that are only personal.
@@filiplass7442to be fair the opposite can also be said, if you like large open world games you’ll likely think Elden Ring is better but it’s still not objective. You can criticise any game for personal reasons as it isn’t factual that one game is better than another, it is based personal opinions.
@@filiplass7442
You do realize that EVERY SINGLE reason you gave as to why Elden Ring is "better" than the other Souls games is also 100% personal, right? ROFL.
I don't know know why people are so confident in making absolute claims about subjectivity/objectivity without fully grasping those concepts in the first place.
The DS2 criticism is basically applicable to all the spellcasting.
Blocking everything magical to later segments of the game was a weird choice.
In the beginning i liked limited castes more because in ds 1 I used my pyromancies more as an add on to my melee build.
But when i played elden ring i felt I had to commit harder because you have to split your healing and your mana flasks and have to put points into mind
I don't like mp because of that.
Putting points in a stat that gives you more castings was always the same in all games. In Ds1, 2 and 3 you level Attunement the same way as mind: so you have more spells to cast.
Personally I'd switch DS2 with DS3 and move Demon's Souls under both.
For DS3, requiring int and faith would be fine except they both scale up to 40 in a game where getting 100 levels before DLC is hard enough already plus needing vigor, attunement, endurance, vitality, dexterity if you want casting speed and/or a dex scaling weapon, etc. Plus, as mentioned, most of the spells ain't that good. Additionally on top of that the castings are more limited due to spell recovery being tied to your estus.
For DS2, I don't think the few negatives outway the positives enough to put it that low, plus with attunement increasing casting speed and agility it means you get a lot more flexibility in builds.
And Demon's Souls at the bottom just because you only get like 3 spells per newgame and to get almost all of those spells you have to go through areas and bosses that heavily resist, or are immune to your fire damage.
DS2 has the best spellcasting system in the series by far, even better than Elden Ring.
(Though Elden Ring did the spells themselves slightly better than DS2.)
Attunement determined Cast Speed
Attunement determined Spell Slots
Herbs
Spices
Waters
Ascetics for NG+ Spells
Hexes
Catalyst Infusions
Hybrid Catalysts
Catalyst Shields/Weapons
Iron King Crown
No Damage Stax Reliance
Spell Merchants useful Post-NG
Duplicate Spells are useful
R2 Catalyst Bonk did semi-useful damage
Non-Regen Healing Spells useful in Coop
Seriously, coming from DS2 to DS3 as a Caster main was a MASSIVE disappointment. Unfortunately, Elden Ring carried over a bunch of the terrible DS3 Caster mechanics, which made playing as a Caster less enjoyable overall.
disagree DS2 tying number of casts to attunement kills the system for me
@@Alkor44
Having to search for Memory Stones for Spell slots and having Cast Speed tied to Dexterity is a constant annoyance to me.
Attunement was completely gutted out during its transfer to Mind.
The only hypothesis I have for Memory Stones even existing, is that Ash of Wars may have been Martial "Spells" at one point before the idea was scrapped. Yet decided to continue to lock Spell Slots as a middle finger toward Casters to give further support towards Spellblade builds.
Having played w pyro in DS1/3/ER and never getting to play a game where cast speed scales w attunement I 100% agree that it should be that way instead of dex. I hate making a casting build and feeling like I NEED to pair it w a dex weapon, especially in ER. Let me run a big ass sword infused w magic or fire and also build for cast speed without over leveling/compromising!
I think DS1 has the best pyromancer just because you dont have to worry about the stupid mana, and since you have spell slots instead of mana, you can have variety, once your strong pyromancies run out you try with other ones, in DS3 or Elden Ring, if you run out of mana, you chug an estus flask and keep casting the same strong spell (also you have HALF the flasks a mele have even if you're hit harder bc for some reason now caster gear means you receive more damage)
I haven‘t tried pyro in all the games yet but I can definitely say that Chaos Storm fucked shit up in the good old days with full weapon upgrade invasions on any level )
Also I really appreciate your videos, they’re entertaining and enjoyable all around! Makes waiting for a certain DLC a bit easier.
Limited casts allow you not to get into a position where big spells dont take all of your resources to use other spells plus your never in a situation where your short a cast because you don't have like 3 more mp, you simply know how many uses and you strategize how best to use that. Also i read others put it makes earlier spells still useful longterm and not instantly replaced. DS imo had the best spell system.
Ironic that the only game with a darkpyro flame has no Black Flame.
Which game?
@@Kervixon DS2
Honestly Pyromancy was so fun in Dark Souls 3 that i'm pretty sure it made Elden Ring worse for me by extension, fire damage is goated in DS3 with it straight up crippling some of the most annoying enemies in the game, and the stat distribution between int and faith while dark and chaos infusions ALSO scale with int and faith essentially means you'll never come across a situation you're not equipped to tackle, you can even lean into some sorceries and miracles too if you feel so inclined.
I also really liked the fact you never needed to spec into stats to use and maximize your damage with pyromancies in the first game too, it kinda helped sell the idea that you were pulling from some sort of inner natural power, since that was what Pyromancy's were.
Demon scar was fun asf too
@@ebm4205 Yeah that weapon alone gave me an additional 400 hours of game time in a game I was largely getting tired of at the time, being able to true combo into black flame and catch panic rolls with Chaos bed vestiges was amazing.
Limited casts work on a simplified magic system. But when you start putting magic into other stuff, lile weapon arts , and other consumables. Yeah a magic bar makes more sense. Tho in my opinion in the early games was necesary as it prevented players from relying solely on those.
one thing to note with Dark Souls 2 is that fire scaling maxes out at 60 int/faith TOTAL. This allows you to reach the softcap on a dark 30/30 build, or a 50 int/faith softcap sorcery/miracle build respectively if you just put 10 points in the other stat. Pyromancy is just usable at full effectiveness to any other caster so fire kinda acts as a back up damage for anything that's immune to your main damage. Also I think the low casts and high stamina costs were probably meant to balance out the fact anyone can use pyromancy, but these nerfs would have made more sense if pyros didn't have scaling like in ds1, with all the new downsides together it's a bit too much
Profaned Flame and Chaos Orb are definitely not mid. Profaned Flame is great setup if you hit the enemy simultaneously with another cast. Also against a lot of the mobs it just causes them to fall on their back.
Chaos orb doesn’t travel as fast as CBV but if you’re fighting a larger enemy. Since it creates a pool of lava after the initial hit it’ll cause more damage and stagger.
Yeah honestly profaned flame is my favorite pyro in ds3 next to sacred flame
I prefer having fp because then you can have as many casts of a spell as you consider necessary: if you don't think you need to use one of your spells, then you automatically have more casts for your other spells
I don't like fp because you can have as many casts as you want for one spell, you have to sacrifice flasks for fp and you have to waste more points on atunement. In ds2 I always had like 5 spells to choose from and I didn't have to sacrifice any flasks to use them
I like limited casts more because Vancian spellcasting reminds me of the roots Dark Souls has in traditional roleplaying games. It helps reinforce that mages have to carefully plan ahead and prepare themselves for the upcoming challenge. One compromise I think would be neat is if traditional sorceries (arcane magic in D&D terms) used the Vancian system with limited casts, while incantations and pyromancies (divine magic in D&D terms) could use a bar. Similar to how wizards prepare all their spells in advance with one dedicated slot per spell cast, whereas sorcerers and warlocks have a narrower selection of spells, but each slot can be flexible on which spell it's used to cast.
Limited cast enjoyer here.
The primary reason I like it is because I don’t have to drink blue flasks. In DS2 I can run like 100 soul arrows for 3 slots, while in DS3 one bar gets me like 10 and then I have to drink a flask. When a spell takes half your bar in FP it is like having two casts but instead of draining half the casts of one spell it drains the casts of everything.
Having played both, I think I prefer fp bars, but limited slots is very good for encouraging you to try different spells
For a bit I did think I preferred immitted casts more for a bit. My problem was actually with ashen estus flasks.
This mainly pertains to Darksouls 3.
For a long time I liked the idea of just slotting in a little bit of magic(sorcery, pyromancy, miracles). However with how ashen estus flasks worked it really seemed to and likely did encouraged a one or the other approach.
What I would have liked is having no ashen estus flasks, and that instead normal estus flasks would restore health as usual but also restore a flat amount of fp plus a portion based on your fp stat. This of course would need rebalancing such as reducing the number of estus flasks you get and weakening the maximum potential that magic could have.
Bellow is an example of how the fp part of this would work. This would not be improved by Undead Bone Shards, but could be improved by rings or other things that use an equipment slot.
So 20 fp = restore 20fp
30 fp = restore 20fp
50 fp = restore 40fp
70 fp = restore 50fp
90 fp = restore 60fp
(I have not played darksouls3 or any of the other in a long time the fp numbers are not accurate just to serve an example.)
The intended end result being that you can dabble in magic and magic users are still encouraged to get into combat as if they use an estus flask just to get fp they are getting a smaller benefit. This would work well with weapon arts since melee builds still have a reason to invest in fp and they don't need to sacrifice an estus flask to restore it. It also adds an extra factor in deciding if you want to consume an estus flask.
Before working out this system that suits my preferences more, I had favoured the limited casts system since investing in one spell slot and getting a weak spell seemed to add a lot of fun utility.
I do think that Darksouls3 was a great game without this, this is purely what I personally would have preferred.
DS3 Black Flame with Pyromancer's Parting Flame is insane. Crazy high damage and it hits twice, often hard staggering anything smaller than a truck
I prefer the limited casts only because I hate having to divide up my HP flasks for FP flasks. If Elden Ring had a spice equivalent but you could only carry a limited amount, it would be so much better.
I think limited casts have a lot of positives, managing your spell uses when clearing areas.
I prefer limited casts because it gives me a bit more freedom in how I want to play. With an MP bar, you have to choose between using a weaker spell several times, or a stronger spell once or twice. But with limited casts, you can use both of them a set number of times, provided you have enough slots. I also think limited casts made acquiring new spell slots more exciting, since you weren’t just increasing your moveset, but your longevity as well, because you’re now less likely to run out of casts.
i prefer limited cast, i think FP should be reserved for weapon arts going forward. I understand the really strong spells typically get limited to 1 cast and that can be frustrating but id rather that than being able to spam it like its some lvl 1 fireball tbh. Like in elden ring I am throwing moons like theyre baby fireballs just bc i have the FP to do it.
I think itd be interesting to introduce upgrading spells (for next fromsoft game obv) similar to a titanite shard/somber stone system to alleviate that problem of single cast via upgrading the spell directly. though that might sound like yet another headache of a treasure hunt to some ppl
Mana bar guy. Started with that system, and i like it. Limited casts always causes me to not use a spell when I really need to. Also, as dungeons get longer, those limited casts make it harder to progress, unless you can buy more copies, which means far more grinding.
To oversimplify it, I like limited casts more than MP based casts becuase I can use soul arrow 40 times without infringing on my ability to use Crystal Soul Spear. When all my spells share the same resource I feel pressured to only use the powerful ones and save it specifically for them.
I prefer limited casts because in demon souls through ds2 during my magic play through d I never felt like a single time that I really ran out of casts so not having too use an item too replenish the bar felt like an advantage too me since I never ran out of casts
To me, the biggest thing holding DS2 back is the insane amount of stamina used to cast a spell, and stamina recovery is just so slow in that game. You also have to level up int, faith, attunement, ADP, and vigor to have a decent build
While casting attached to attunement makes more sense, having it tied to dex is an artificial way to make mage builds more stat hungry to force them to be squishy in pvp.
Love your takes, Youwy
Keep it up!
I'd disagree, my order would go ds1, elden ring, ds3 then ds2. Ds2 pyromancies hit super hard, very versatile, the spell casts is fine because the items plus the old iron king crown refunds 20% of casts every few mins. And they didnt "ruin" chaos storm, they balanced it to be less overpowered
Attunement has always been better its more versatile; people who say it makes the game easier dont understand attunement is your stamina bar for magic that has to be replenished rather than a limited cast of an op spell
Forbidden Sun and Chaos Bed Vestiges took out so many unprepared hollows.
DS3 is my favorite because Chaos Bed Vestiges is THAT good. I have a level 43 character I use for co-op and vestiges allowed that character with a +4 pyro glove to clear the entire game.
If you wanted to talk power I’d put DS1 at #1 by far but if you count variety I’d put DS3 #1. Just counting the red and black flame spells.
You have catch flame which is more like combustion but they got rid of black flame, no fan flame, chaos orb, sacred flame, Rapport, Iron Flesh, Warmth, Carthus Beacon, etc.
The utility really went way down and no casting weapon was unfortunate.
I like limited casts because getting more scrolls is a good incentive to go to ng+ and further
The reason why DS2 pyro is so mid is cuz DS1 pyro is too broken, so they knee-jerk hard nerf it in the later game.
But then ppl complain about pyro being weak, so they buff it again in DS3/ER.
DS2 pyromancy deserves to be way higher. It was balanced more towards PVP. A nuke projectile like Forbidden Sun should have high requirements and drawbacks because of how easy it was to land as a roll catch or with setups like Lingering Flame, Soulmass, etc.
Magic is so fun in Elden Ring I always went strength or quality in Darks souls 1-3 but Elden ring made me use so many Incantations Strength-Faith is the most fun build
Speaking of Demon's Scar, here's hoping the DLC gives us an ash that casts your equipped spells
No I think limited casts was vastly better. Finding a second version of a spell was actually a really big deal in DS1 and DS2 whereas in DS3 and ER it means nothing. Think it also helped with balancing.
I'm doing a black flame moon playthrough of elden ring and it's been a breeze to get through.
10:16. Personally I go for the method of. "There's no kill like overkill."
Ds3 actually had true combos especially using the demon horn
limited cast is better because it helps balance the game not to mention adding mana either makes mage too op or too weak
I think people like limited casts per spells because of the unique gimmicks it brings.
It makes you think of what spells to prepare and cast
Casting one spell a whole lot won’t drain up your entire pool of resources
Variety is more important with lesser spells being more reliable thanks to having more casts
It gives you an insensitive to find more copies of the same spell so you can stack them
I think Dark Souls 2 nailed this gimmick as it made it where attunment increases uses per spell, it was easy to gather enough spices if you knew what you were doing, and the reason I think some spells have so little casts was to mimic how they functioned in previous games. Firestorm costed a lot of MP in Demon’s Souls, where in Dark Souls it used MULTIPLE uses every cast.
But really I like both casting systems, the uses and MP. Plus I kinda like how DS2’s useage mechanics feels like D&D’s Vancian magic system.
And as one last note: I think rewards that can only be unlocked in New Game aren’t all that bad. It encourages new play throughs of the game with the same character but in harder difficulty. DS2 did NG+ the best with how it really changes up the game and how you can use items to make specific ares NG+.
Dark Souls I Pyromancy on impact effect goes hard af.
Rapport has a silent t btw. Great vid tho x
think you could do the other spell types next?
Forbidden sun is my number 1
I want to mention that getting warmth is a pain in the ass in DS3 you need 30 vertebra shackles.
i will hear no slander against sacred flame, it's the ultimate turn and burn option in invasions
Ds2 has the most creative spell casting out of all the games, including pyromancies. The fixed spell uses was a much better system that promoted variety. Also having each element have ots own scaling was also a much better system that promoted diversity, instead of everything being tied to the scaling of the casting tool as it is on Elden Ring. Each chime had different scaling for casting lightining and dark, and you could infuse it to specialize further, and each element was tied to leveling other stats. In Elden Ring, the element does not matter, just the casting tool (with the exception of passive bonuses, which in most cases result in using casting tools as stat sticks). That fact makes casting in Elden Ring way more shallow. DS2 to had the overall best, most interesting and most balanced system.
Firestorm in demon's souls is op as can be!
well In ds2 you can use a Bonfire astetic in aldias keep to get unlimited twilight herbs i think with the two stone guys up the stairs
dark souls 3 does not only have the most fun pyros but also they are so good compared to ds1 how is it not at least 2nd place
I’m sure I said my reasoning in the video. If any of it doesn’t make sense then just lmk
@@youwy well you said that dark souls 3 had more pyros but less good ones when even tho there are only few good ones compared to all of them, its the same amount of good ones as in ds1
5:18
The ONLY reason I like limited casts more is due to the existence of blue kool-aid
Having to get rid of your healing to do magic heavily discourages people from trying out the build
This is amplified by the amount of magic related items that decrease your health, increase damage taken, and more
For experienced players it’s a way better system, but for the majority of players who will only go through a game once or twice it is insanely discouraging and kinda dumb
Sacred Flame is not mid 😤 my favorite pyromancy in the game. It's so cool. Tbf it does suck against stuff you can't grab. You can kill the library crystal sage with it when you first see him by just locking him in place with the grab lol. Wish we got a fire version of it in ER but we got the madness one.
Never played Demon's Souls but if their fire spells are that strong and shares build with other type of spells that are also good then I would put that as number 1 tbh. But then the vid would be called "Which Game has the Best Spells" and I got a feeling ER would still be winning or at least be second place
I liked pyromancies in DS3. I didnt try them in DS1 to their full potential. In DS2 they were really fun, especially the one where you cast a flame inside an enemy and it explodes, but I dont like how I need to consume items constantly because I dont have enough casts.
Crown of the Old Iron King fixes that issue and can carry into NG+.
@@xXLunatikxXlul Yeah but in my run i werent in brume tower yet so I cant say anything to that yet.
@@craftihlow69 Ahh. Well, when you have the chance the Crown is well worth grabbing for casters. The 20% spell recovery every 2 minutes is a huge game changer for casters.
@@xXLunatikxXlul then its a good thing Fume Knight is the best boss in the game. Gonna go there next.
@@craftihlow69 Sweet, good luck with him and enjoy the fight ^-^ he's quite fun and has awesome music.
Ah yes, one of the best pyromancies, f̶i̶r̶e̶ ̶S̶o̶u̶l̶ ̶V̶o̶r̶t̶e̶x̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶D̶S̶2 Chaos Bed Vestiges
Ignite is my all time favorite fire spell in a From Soft game, with Flame Swathe as a close second. One thing that can't be understated for Demon's Souls is that you actually cast from your hand vs the rest where you need a (long) wooden stick
I think limited cast is a good idea for the exact reason demon souls is low
You're forced to use all your spells, forcing you to manage them for what you need at the moment, instead of spamming the same spell over and over again, and I feel like you're rewarded for playing the good spell at the right moment
Now that's a video i wanted to see!
Pyromancies for life!
The reason limited casts of Ds1/Ds2 was better is simple - it does not force magic builds to sacrifice precious healing Flasks, with the problem being most egregious in Ds3 where magic builds just straight up sucked compared to pure str/dex and quality builds simply because they needed way more stat investments for less return, on top of healing tax. Limited casts also encouraged better resource management imo, where you would use your plentiful magic arrow for trash, but you kept that sweet crystal spear for something dangerous
Also, the spell slots as a mechanic were more substantial with limited casts; the more slots you have, the better mage you were. In DS3 you can have only one slot used out of your 12 slots and cast the most powerful spell until your mana bar depletes.
@@osvaldoprado9906 Also - Also - there is that discrepancy where melee builds don't need to awkwardly drink a flask every time stamina bar drops to zero. That'd absolutely break the flow of combat, wouldn't it?
@@Rigel_6 Yeah I get it lol. That would be very silly.
Idc what anyone says DeS fire spray is the most fun spell to use in any of these games. It's like playing a 3rd person shooter but you're the only one with a gun
Attunement glitch in DkS2? First time I hear of that
2:47 you should check your fax, cus amber herbs can be bought infinitely.
I prefer limited spells because their's no mana estus I need to split my normal Estus between. You ever try playing a mage who doesnt split their estus? you get like 3 casts of Soul Spear or something then you're all out. With limited casts it doesnt matter if I run out of Soul Spears, I got 30 soul arrows. You just have more to cast without a mana bar
whats that chest piece on the elden ring section i dont recognize it
Please tell me you named your character Zuko for this marathon
Dark Souls 3 above anything in reference to casting is wild.
10:02 laughs in souls dupe glitch 😂😂
I never felt more powerful starting a souls game than I did as a pyromancer in DS3, they pyros in DS3 are just so fucking broken. Elden Rings pyros are great but imo DS3’s pyros feel stronger
Elden ring at 1 instead of dark souls 1 is crazy because me personally I feel the exact opposite.
Wouidnt really concider what elden ring has as pyronancy wlden ring prolly has the worst pyromancy selection from ny game witch is crazy with the sheer amount of items every other class has your only option is to be a faith biuld that uses a very select few pyro incantations how ever the more than made up for it with everything else
Okay but which stonesword key has the best usage?
So I will do my best to explain why limited casts are the superior system(In my humble opinion). First its important to understand the reason for both systems and how the inclusion of each system effects the behavior of the player.
Note: for limited casts I will be using the Dark souls 1 system and for Mana I will be using mainly Elden ring though it also applies to Dark souls 3. I will not be using Demon souls since its mana system is like many other systems in the game undercooked. I also will not be using Dark souls 2 since that games limited cast system is just god awful.
Both systems exist in order to restrict the number of spells the player can cast.
Mana does this by having resource bar that all spells utilize. Each spell has a mana cost weaker spells have a small mana cost which allows players to use more of them while powerful spells have large mana costs letting players only cast them a handful of times. To accommodate the fact that all spells pull from the same resource players are given mana flasks that restore mana(duh); the number of flasks a player can have is finite and the more flasks a player has for recovering mana the less flasks they have for recovering health.
Limited casts accomplishes this goal by assigning each spell with a designated number of casts which once used up prevents the player from casting that spell. Similar to mana the weaker spells have a greater number of casts allowing player to use them more often while the stronger spells have fewer casts which again limits how often the player can use them. If a player wants to have more casts for a powerful spell they can, all that they would need is another copy of the spell and the required number of attunement slots to hold it.
Now the benefits of the mana system is that 1. you are able to use the same spell as many times as you like so long as you have mana and 2.......... there really isn't any other benefit or at least I can't think of one. you see with the mana system spell casts are now all about mana efficiency, you might have 20 different spells that can damage enemies but if one spell can kill an enemy in the same number of casts as the others but for less mana then that is only spell you should use when facing that enemy. for example in my Elden ring play through I have around 20 different spells but I only use like 7 since the others are either gimmicks or cost to much mana. of those 7 spells 4 of them are basically the same but with minor differences in power and cost. I have glintstone shard, great glintstone shard, swift glintstone shard, and night comet. why do i have 3 different kinds of glintstone shards? because with limited mana every point counts and if i can kill the same enemy in 2 shots with swift glintstone shard as glintstone shard then thats saves me 4 mana and over the course of a long dungeon that adds up. I have a bunch of other cool magic spells but again they take alot more mana to use which limits the number of enemies i can kill.
limited cast doesn't have this issue. Yes you are limited in how many times you can use your favorite spell and your are really limited if that spell happens to be really powerful (only 3 wrath of god casts qq). but in exchange you are free from having to worry about what spell is most efficient in each situation. It doesn't matter if that black knight takes 5 souls arrows to kill instead of 4 greater souls arrows as using those 4 greater soul arrow cast does not change how many cast I have for my other spells. now unfortunately in Dark souls 1 sorceries are rather restrictive in damaging spell so its really the miracles and pyromancies that benefit the most from this system.
There are also other things like how boss fights are effected by either system but its around midnight and I need to sleep. hopefully this is coherent enough and you can understand why some people prefer limited casts over mana.
Ds 1 black flame looks awesome
DS1. You can't beat zero requirement and a metric fuckton of damage cuz the maxed out flame is about as good as the best staffs in mag. Adjust without any stats, works with dusk crown and the dragoncrest ring. Ridiculously broken.
was very surprised to see elden ring ranked 1. for me personally, whilst it does have some bangers (catch flame, giantsflame), it is overall such a stripped down version of dark souls 3.
1. no visual pyromancers flame. just doesnt look as cool weilding random seals
2. no catalysts or many pyro weapons or aow at all. whats especially sad is pyro adjacent weapons like giants braid, magma blade scale worse with faith than the other stats! wtf
how did we go from ds3 having dozens of cool ass fire weapons to just having flaming strike (and a nerfed flame of the redmane). and dont they both scale better with strength?
3. lack of all the pvp utility spells. black serpent, sacred flame, profaned flame, surge flame is here but its terrible. especially in comparison to glintstone/carian builds who have a dozen spells and themed weapon for each scenario. how is there 4 variations of phalanx spells but pyro just has fell god?
both 2 and 3 make pyro builds much more 1 dimensional overall. giantsflame is still incredibly fun, but miyazaki pls save us with the dlc
Demon Souls should be on one, like you just kill everything with firestorm
Ds3 has lava style rasenshuriken's? And it's NOT number one? 8:14