Hmmm. I was taught by an Eastern Band Cherokee to make a bow of a seasoned hickory sapling, about two inches in diameter. It looked nothing at all like the one in this video. The bark was removed from the back, so it did have a D profile, more or less. It was straight taper on centerline from two of my finger widths at center to the width of my ring finger alone at the tips. Its length was from my armpit to the ground, and the thickness at center was determined by the split. All the wood was removed from the belly and the sides only, and the back was essentially untouched except to remove the bark. The thickness at the tips was determined by tillering, which was done with a progressively shortened string, with the wood removed by scraping while it was strung. I don't know about the speed, but those personal measurements made it 'fit' me, and it remains to this day the most comfortable style bow to shoot I ever owned. As I outgrew them, I just made another one. I am not at all sure they had the same perspective on performance as we do. 'Performance' was what you came out of the woods with when you took it into the woods. For me, it was good up to twenty yards, which is about as far as you ever got a clear shot in the dense forests of western NC anyway.
Reading the comments, I don't doubt the cherokee elder explained long or short bows. I guess the real question was it a hunting bow or a war bow? Supposely the cherokee had different bows for the task. The war bow was a lighter weight so the arrow wouldn't penetrate all the way through and the arrow head was fasten with just sinew so that the warm blood would losen the sinew and the arrow head would fall off if they tried to pull the arrow out, you either had to push it all the way through or cut it out. While the hunting bow was heavier weight for greater penetration and the arrowhead where attached with plant fibers and pitch. Regardless they're all impressive
My granddad taught me to shoot bow at a young age. I held it at an angle. Maybe because of my small stature. The arrows were like those. 8mm thick. Various tips. A 32 short case for small game. Pitch glue and long turkey feathers. I put together from pieces. Fun!
This is no real test except one bow against another bow. Each stave has different capability. THE Cherokee bow historically was a ~ 60 inch D bow, unbacked, and back east it was Black Locust was most common. Out here in OK we tend to use Osage Orange.
greetings to you sir and everyone.i am impressed to see and learn about these bows.its powwer and speed. just grew interested to build a few for my self.thank you sir.very good video to learn from. from mr.toufie south africa.
@@PrimitiveLifeways Thank you for the reply. After watching your video on making a Lakota bow, I made one. It measures 46" tip to tip and draws 50 lbs. at 22". It throws my 530 gr. hunting arrows as hard as any of my other osage bows, which draw up to 60 lbs. I don't go below 530 grains for whitetails.
That was very interesting. Watching the style of snap shooting, I am amazed the intended target can be hit. I've seen a few other examples of AmerInd style shooting, so I knew they shot mostly from almost the waist and very short arrows. I think the chronograph results were far too inconsistent which further amazes me anything can be hit. Very fascinating.
That's a poor example of a Cherokee style D bow. Cherokee bows are supposed to be as long as the man is tall. This isn't a very good comparison at all just saying.
The Cherokee bow was made in different sizes. When talking to Cherokee elder Manuel Lucero IV he explained how the Cherokee bow was long and short. It depended on what it was needed for
@@ReasonAboveEverything yeah you probably think Cherokees lived in teepees too. Hunting and warfare was mostly done on foot for Cherokee and other eastern tribes.
@@PrimitiveLifeways That's true, but they were never that small nor were sinew back. Osage orange would have not been coming at all in the Southeast and the longbows were made out of mostly hickory and black locust. Sometimes the D bow would have a slight recurve as well with diamond knocks. Of course that's what I've been taught by Cherokees back home in Tennessee.
I wonder, and suspect, that the rawhide backing on the Cherokee bow was responsible for much of the difference in arrow speed as it increases limb mass.
@@Daylon91 : I'm looking at a freeze-frame of the beginnng of the video where he's holding both bows together. The limb widths are almost exact. In fact, it looks like the Comanche bow is wider for the first half after the handle and tapers a little more toward the tips. Whereas the Cherokee bow has less taper but starts out a little narrower near the handle. Yes, the gullwing design will give some performance improvement. But the mass difference caused by the rawhide backing is much more likely the culprit for the majority of difference in performance.
That is not a Cherokee bow, Cherokee bows we’re much longer and made of Black locust according to museum bows and we make them that way here in Kentucky
Hi Barry, When I talked to a Cherokee elder about 8 months back he said they made short and long bows. The one think that is modified is the raw hide backing
@@PrimitiveLifeways Which elder did you speak with? We only have a handful of living renown bow makers left and if it wasn't one of them then. . . Note: We also make our arrows of river cane and fletch them with turkey feathers. Annually we still hold a shootout with traditional made bows & arrows, using corn stalk bundles as targets. I know all our elders whom are traditional bow makers. I can confirm if you spoke to an authority or not. There are many pretenders out there claiming to be Cherokees or Cherokee elders as well.
Exactly this. I don't know attachment therapys, But I have read Al Herrin's books and magazine articles. I don't remember exactly, but in his book, Cherokee hunting bows were usually shorter, but stilcloser to 60-62", and warbows usually as tall as the archer or even taller, and of high draw weights. The Cherokee were fierce warriors, but were never horse-back based archers, to my knowledge.
@stephenballard3759 the Apaches werent known to be horseback fighters neither the Yumas or Hopi yet all of them had short bows under 55" mostly 43-50"
The only variable here being an actual Cherokee bow is a longbow. It's about as long as they are tall. I assume that would come into play somewhere in some way.
Well, I don't believe the "Cherokee Style" bow is very Cherokee style. I'm Cherokee and learning under elders. They are MUCH longer in general. Also, we DON'T use rawhide backing. Well, we can and do, but it's way less common than a self bow.
From what I've read, those bows back in the Eastern Mountains were longer and generally bigger archery systems. Lots of cane arrows, man-height bows, and perhaps higher draw weights.
Well that was interesting,....I believe in the 80's crossbows were 160 FPS and they killed the shit out of deer. And the arrows are the same length,.....but I'd opt hazelnut as a shaft,... heavier gives greater penetration..
When I get the money will you make me one.myfriend.ilove this video.this is how I believe they made the old bows back in the days.giveme away to contact you.iwont one thanks❤
You would have to make both bows with the same wood to make it fair lol totally not fair can't use rawhide 😮 totally pissing of the Cherokee you didn't even show the tiller weight lmfao 😆
there were also many flat european bows....the only bow I know which isn´t flat is the english longbow...the reason for a flat bow is because it does not brake so easily...and as shorter a bow gets and the more poundij a bow has the more tension is on the back of the bow, so you have to have a very low poundij bow or a flat bow.
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Hmmm. I was taught by an Eastern Band Cherokee to make a bow of a seasoned hickory sapling, about two inches in diameter. It looked nothing at all like the one in this video. The bark was removed from the back, so it did have a D profile, more or less. It was straight taper on centerline from two of my finger widths at center to the width of my ring finger alone at the tips. Its length was from my armpit to the ground, and the thickness at center was determined by the split. All the wood was removed from the belly and the sides only, and the back was essentially untouched except to remove the bark. The thickness at the tips was determined by tillering, which was done with a progressively shortened string, with the wood removed by scraping while it was strung. I don't know about the speed, but those personal measurements made it 'fit' me, and it remains to this day the most comfortable style bow to shoot I ever owned. As I outgrew them, I just made another one. I am not at all sure they had the same perspective on performance as we do. 'Performance' was what you came out of the woods with when you took it into the woods. For me, it was good up to twenty yards, which is about as far as you ever got a clear shot in the dense forests of western NC anyway.
Reading the comments, I don't doubt the cherokee elder explained long or short bows. I guess the real question was it a hunting bow or a war bow? Supposely the cherokee had different bows for the task. The war bow was a lighter weight so the arrow wouldn't penetrate all the way through and the arrow head was fasten with just sinew so that the warm blood would losen the sinew and the arrow head would fall off if they tried to pull the arrow out, you either had to push it all the way through or cut it out. While the hunting bow was heavier weight for greater penetration and the arrowhead where attached with plant fibers and pitch. Regardless they're all impressive
Awesome video. Would love to see some more comparisons
Except actual cherokee bows were long bows.
EXACTLY!
As long as we were tall
I believe they also made shorter bows to
I am impressed at the speed you are getting from the short bow designs.
I'd like to see a hupa speed tested. Mine is crazy fast. But it's also my only sinew bow.
I'd like to see a Hupa bow vs. a gullwing bow
My granddad taught me to shoot bow at a young age. I held it at an angle. Maybe because of my small stature. The arrows were like those. 8mm thick. Various tips. A 32 short case for small game. Pitch glue and long turkey feathers. I put together from pieces. Fun!
This is no real test except one bow against another bow. Each stave has different capability. THE Cherokee bow historically was a ~ 60 inch D bow, unbacked, and back east it was Black Locust was most common. Out here in OK we tend to use Osage Orange.
greetings to you sir and everyone.i am impressed to see and learn about these bows.its powwer and speed. just grew interested to build a few for my self.thank you sir.very good video to learn from. from mr.toufie south africa.
How much did the test arrow weigh? Have you ever tested the Lakota bow you made for arrow speed?
393 grains
@@PrimitiveLifeways Thank you for the reply. After watching your video on making a Lakota bow, I made one. It measures 46" tip to tip and draws 50 lbs. at 22". It throws my 530 gr. hunting arrows as hard as any of my other osage bows, which draw up to 60 lbs. I don't go below 530 grains for whitetails.
Excelent video Greetings from Mexico, Master.
They are both impressive for such a short draw length.
Thanks! I had fun
@@PrimitiveLifewayswhy did you make the Cherokee bow short
That was very interesting. Watching the style of snap shooting, I am amazed the intended target can be hit. I've seen a few other examples of AmerInd style shooting, so I knew they shot mostly from almost the waist and very short arrows. I think the chronograph results were far too inconsistent which further amazes me anything can be hit. Very fascinating.
Interesting! I always prefer heavy arrows. Best regards.
That's a poor example of a Cherokee style D bow. Cherokee bows are supposed to be as long as the man is tall. This isn't a very good comparison at all just saying.
Then the horse came into picture.
The Cherokee bow was made in different sizes. When talking to Cherokee elder Manuel Lucero IV he explained how the Cherokee bow was long and short. It depended on what it was needed for
@@ReasonAboveEverything yeah you probably think Cherokees lived in teepees too. Hunting and warfare was mostly done on foot for Cherokee and other eastern tribes.
@@PrimitiveLifeways That's true, but they were never that small nor were sinew back. Osage orange would have not been coming at all in the Southeast and the longbows were made out of mostly hickory and black locust. Sometimes the D bow would have a slight recurve as well with diamond knocks. Of course that's what I've been taught by Cherokees back home in Tennessee.
@@phaizonosborne2806 what was the minimum lenght?
I wonder, and suspect, that the rawhide backing on the Cherokee bow was responsible for much of the difference in arrow speed as it increases limb mass.
Maybe, but I know that the slight gullwing design is more efficient for a short draw bow
@@Daylon91 : I'm looking at a freeze-frame of the beginnng of the video where he's holding both bows together. The limb widths are almost exact. In fact, it looks like the Comanche bow is wider for the first half after the handle and tapers a little more toward the tips. Whereas the Cherokee bow has less taper but starts out a little narrower near the handle.
Yes, the gullwing design will give some performance improvement. But the mass difference caused by the rawhide backing is much more likely the culprit for the majority of difference in performance.
I'd love to see a sinew backed gullwing bow speed tested against different profiles
A bowyer got 172 fps with an Apache bow 10 gpp at 22"
Just recently came across your videos this is the second one I've watched I was wondering do you make these bows and sell them
nice information thank you
That is not a Cherokee bow, Cherokee bows we’re much longer and made of Black locust according to museum bows and we make them that way here in Kentucky
Hi Barry,
When I talked to a Cherokee elder about 8 months back he said they made short and long bows. The one think that is modified is the raw hide backing
@@PrimitiveLifeways Which elder did you speak with?
We only have a handful of living renown bow makers left and if it wasn't one of them then. . .
Note: We also make our arrows of river cane and fletch them with turkey feathers. Annually we still hold a shootout with traditional made bows & arrows, using corn stalk bundles as targets.
I know all our elders whom are traditional bow makers.
I can confirm if you spoke to an authority or not.
There are many pretenders out there claiming to be Cherokees or Cherokee elders as well.
I agree pretty short for a Cherokee bow.
Exactly this.
I don't know attachment therapys, But I have read Al Herrin's books and magazine articles.
I don't remember exactly, but in his book, Cherokee hunting bows were usually shorter, but stilcloser to 60-62", and warbows usually as tall as the archer or even taller, and of high draw weights.
The Cherokee were fierce warriors, but were never horse-back based archers, to my knowledge.
@stephenballard3759 the Apaches werent known to be horseback fighters neither the Yumas or Hopi yet all of them had short bows under 55" mostly 43-50"
Thanks for this video. What is the tip width of the Comanche bow? 3/8 of an inch?
Wouldnt it make more sense to make a longer bow so you can pull back further for more speed and power?
The only variable here being an actual Cherokee bow is a longbow. It's about as long as they are tall. I assume that would come into play somewhere in some way.
Any experience with mulberry for arrows?
Thank you 😊
This guy is a great bowyer.
Out of curiosity, what's your draw length on a 42" bow?
20”
@@PrimitiveLifeways I think it's interesting that they can produce good speeds, not only at short length, but at such a short draw too.
Yeah. That question is higly relative. Make 10 comanche bows, now make 10 Cherokee bows.
It's the thicker tips and no setback in the handle that slows the bow a bit.
Enjoyed thanks.
Well, I don't believe the "Cherokee Style" bow is very Cherokee style. I'm Cherokee and learning under elders. They are MUCH longer in general. Also, we DON'T use rawhide backing. Well, we can and do, but it's way less common than a self bow.
Where can i purchase these bows?
Cuantas libras de fuerza existe en ese disparo con un arco tan corto?
How much did your arrows weigh?
393 grains
I❤small size bow because they are completely machine gun of ancient history,
They are fastest way and completely compatible for light cavalry archery.
Try a chokee bow that's full size and full draw.
what does deer meat take like? is it similar to beef?
More like a leaner gamey goat
Love it I want a bowl now comanche
Lot of experts in the comments 😂😂
what is the difference they all look exacly the same.
Very interesting.
I wonder about Cherokee bow speed in their ancient homeland and in e.g. 17/18th century. 😊
From what I've read, those bows back in the Eastern Mountains were longer and generally bigger archery systems. Lots of cane arrows, man-height bows, and perhaps higher draw weights.
It better be comanche bow cause I am making one at the moment hehehe.
I'm making a Cherokee/eastern woodlands inspired bow so I'm biased the other way, lol
😂
Wrong. Commanche bows were mountain juniper. Or eastern red cedar.
the comamche shot their bows low, and they shot fast, very fast
Well that was interesting,....I believe in the 80's crossbows were 160 FPS and they killed the shit out of deer.
And the arrows are the same length,.....but I'd opt hazelnut as a shaft,... heavier gives greater penetration..
Yes I got Apache and me and comache
When I get the money will you make me one.myfriend.ilove this video.this is how I believe they made the old bows back in the days.giveme away to contact you.iwont one thanks❤
That was my guess
👍
🎉
You would have to make both bows with the same wood to make it fair lol totally not fair can't use rawhide 😮 totally pissing of the Cherokee you didn't even show the tiller weight lmfao 😆
😎 👍🏼
why are american bows so flat compared to european
there were also many flat european bows....the only bow I know which isn´t flat is the english longbow...the reason for a flat bow is because it does not brake so easily...and as shorter a bow gets and the more poundij a bow has the more tension is on the back of the bow, so you have to have a very low poundij bow or a flat bow.