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i lived in nashville TN and if you call 911 in a crisis , they send out a crisis mobile unit that are trained to deal with people in mental crisis . more places should do that
My city does that as well. Two officers respond - the traditional officer and the one trained for mental health. The mental health trained officer was a real blessing when he was called to my home. He was extremely helpful and provided my family with the resources for my family member to get help. Mental health issues are tough because people in a Psychosis can be very dangerous to themselves and others. They also have to deal with the dangers that come with drug users and mental health. Someone in cardiac arrest isn’t capable of hurting another human being, but someone in a psychosis whether drug induced or not is capable of harming another. It’s a very tough situation to navigate.
I was offloaded to the police when reporting worsening depression, anxiety, and increased substance abuse precipitated by a highly toxic work environment. I called my then company's EAP hotline in search of an in-network therapist or counselor, and I was not suicidal, but the woman on the other end thought I COULD harm myself. The policemen were very nice -- one came outside so I could smoke a cigarette before they took me to an ER "voluntarily" (not voluntary at all!). I am not a fan of the police being involved in these situations generally. This can collapse somebody's career or livelihood and leave them destitute. If you have a security clearance, an incident like this can destroy your career (happened to me... now I'm out of work with severe PTSD and may be homeless pretty soon... how did THAT help?). Thank you for bringing this topic up. The comments are mixed and interesting. ETA: I agree with your sympathetic view toward the police -- this is outside of their scope.
I have BPD and unfortunately I have had the RCMP come to my apartment many times when I have contacted crisis lines about having self harmed or wanting to unalive. Out of the dozens of officers I have interacted with, only one has ever treated me with respect and dignity. Whenever I tell officers that I do not wish to give them my health information they become personally offended, and I have seen officers even become defensive when I said that I did not want to speak with them about my disorder. Keep in mind all of this is in spite of me being calm the entire time and complying with anything they told me to do. I say this to everyone, and especially to the officer that told me police should be doing this work: Unless you have personally experienced what it is like to be the patient in these crises, you have no right to weigh in on this issue. And if you are an officer, your ego has nothing to do with this because your presence alone is causing trauma.
4:19 "The root issue here is that we do not see mental health yet as what it truly is: a HEALTH issue. We would never send police to respond to someone in cardiac arrest but for some reason this is who we send to respond to someone in psychosis or someone who is suicidal." This is such an excellent take. Great to know about the Eugene, OR model as well. As someone who has had a mental health apprehension, I want to say thank you for making this well-researched and articulate video.
One way my state deals with this is to ask if the person calling out for help has weapons on them. If the answer is yes..they send in the police if not the EMS alone. I know I've been in both situations. in Ny it was different. They ask if you are homicidal or suicidal, and respectively follow through. I was cuffed once there. I really didn't understand why expect in hindsight. Safety is preliminary. I approve of such policy and policing. But I guess it could be better here in some way and in other places as well.
I live in California, USA. I have major depression. I've never had a psychotic episode and am not violent; only very sad and tired a lot. I've had several interactions with law enforcement when in depression, never from me calling for them. All interactions have been threateningly negative. Here's one example. One night, I had left home and gone for a drive because I was somewhat despondent and this helps. I had parked out in some woods to sit and be calm, to see if the despair would "break" a bit. Flashing lights rolled up behind me. I was not parked illegally or anything. When the officer (a county sheriff) approached, I fully opened my door slowly so that he could see I was no threat to him. When he asked why I was there, I was honest and told him. He asked for my driver license and returned to his truck. After some time (I assume checking my record, where he would find nothing as I've no traffic incidents and no arrests), he came back and asked me to go over my "story" again. I again said I was just suffering from a night of more severe depression and had left to get away from home. He asked if I'd been drinking or if I had taken any drugs. No. I was completely sober. When asked, I made it a clear point that I was not suicidal--and I wasn't. I have had this disease for 32 years and I know. After pressing me more, he again left my car saying he needed to call his partner. I weigh about 130 lbs and he at least 200. Why another officer? He still had my license. Eventually, another truck rolled up and another sheriff got out. They conferred for awhile and then the second one brought a dog all the way around my car (how they do drug detection). The K-9 had no reaction. Nevertheless, the first officer again asked me more questions with the second officer there, and he tried spinning some details I had given him as if they were false. He said some things that were patently false. I simply repeated what I had said before. They both walked away saying they needed to check some more things "and then they would get out of my hair." All told, I was detained for over an hour. When the first officer finally returned my license to me and said I could go, I drove away. The officer followed me for several miles before turning a different direction. I drove very carefully, of course. It was nerve wracking and no help to my mental state. I realized several things from this interaction: 1. Officers form their own narrative about a situation and pursue it, whether it is true or not. In my estimation, they really thought I was a drug addict or something. 2. Officers are not there to help you. Their motive is to detain you, try to trip you up so they can detain you further, and if possible, arrest you. They were really pressing me for a reason to do so. Trying to help a depressed person have a better day does not involve a K-9 unit under suspicion of narcotics. 3. If one, then two officers can spend over an hour shaking up a depressed person and don't have anything more serious to attend to, then they have way too much time and resources or are misdirected in their mission. I posed no harm to anyone, not even myself. I was out there alone. There was no need for this.
@@dianeaishamonday9125 I appreciate your sympathy. I just can't envision how it would have gone, though, for me to have sat there in my vehicle alone in the middle of nowhere, window up and not responding, to a much larger than I and firearm-carrying officer. But moreover, my point with this is that from my experiences, law enforcement does not handle mental illness at all well or decently, even one such as mine that I would think is completely non-threatening in its presentation as I specifically described in this incident. It was to speak to the question asked by the video, because when they are called, the police almost certainly *are going* to intervene in the situation and the person in crisis will have no choice but to deal with them.
And all that time lost from your meditation. Yesterday I was able to "talk" to a whale, a seal, two sea lions, a river otter and several sea birds without one cop thinking that I shouldn't be where I was. I can imagine so many scenerios where this simple interaction with the real world would change in a matter of seconds.
It's horrifying that you had to go through such a disgusting interaction. I have depression and I can't imagine how defeated and scared I would feel if cops approached me in one of my car rides - because I usually drive alone to quiet places to relax too. The thought of being harrased in a place that probably felt sacred to you is scary, I applaud the way you held your temper (not that you should feel the need to, but you get my point). I hope you're feeling a bit safer now. I know first hand how these type of derogatory interactions completely destroy our already frail sense of belonging and further deepen an aching for solitude... This is why Lauren's point about cops being unfit for mental care actions is completely true. I'm sending you a hug and I hope you get better luck next time ❤❤❤
@@dianeaishamonday9125 I get what you're saying, but it was not their mistake, it was the cops who failed. And it's not like this person had any other option, right? If they resisted the approach or gave an evasive answer, the situation would have been probably worse...
Hey Lauren! I'm working with the CMHA to implement non-police response teams in British Columbia. Your points are spot on and I'm so glad to see you speaking out about this issue. I have been watching your videos for months to learn about schizophrenia and mental illness. I really look up to you and I am so inspired by your work and leadership on mental illness! You are helping implement better crisis response teams through these videos and your work! Thank you so much ☺️
Thank God. They are horrible, I had one not even understand what was happening, harass me and my family then at the end of the very tense exchange finally realize I was suicidal. terrible. I hate the police.
Absolutely not unless there are weapons or danger involved & even then the police should not be in charge. My daughter was having a psychotic breakdown on the street believing a bunch of guys were following her to gang rape her. Her case manager & a crisis worker found her & convinced her to voluntarily get into the back of a police car to go to the hospital ER just blocks away. But when they pulled into the ER bay & the door closed down & she panicked, seeing the cops as 2 big guys out to hurt her, and they did. When she wouldn't get out of the car, one of the cops dragged her out and twisted her arm behind her. She screamed, "You broke my arm!!!" and he did--a spiral fracture in 2 places, the kind of thing that if parents bring in the child having that child protection services get called. And with her arm broken they then strapped my daughter to a gurney. She has PTSD as a result.
I used to work in a psychiatric closed ward and the police were not especially pleased when a patient ran a way and they were supposed to bring the person back. They didn't feel equipped for it - and to be honest they thought it was a waste of their time. I used to have a friend that was a "regular" at the psychiatric emergency unit. She didn't suffer from Schizophrenia but from severe BPD and she was very explicit, and physical, with her suffering - and could be considered a real pain in the b** by the people that were supposed to deal with her when she was at her worst. She used to call me when she was in that state and at one time she told me that she'd been banned from "ambulance assistance", they refused to take her on because she'd trashed the interiors the time before and t h e y' d called the police. She was an exception but my experience is that people seem to underestimate the fear that people (including myself) with severe illnesses feel. They just see the "big gestures" and don't see the fear. I remember one time when I sat down beside a young man (I was also quite young), he'd been forcefully put on the ground and injected with a tranquilizer. He looked at me and said "Aren't you afraid of me?" And when I said "No", he asked "Well, would you give me a hug?" It was a fantastic moment that I'll treasure forever.
When I was a kid, I knew a child whose stepfather got killed from policemen all piling on top of him... The story goes that he had done drugs and gotten violent after hearing he would be deported and then the police accidentally killed him when he resisted arrest. In truth, he was an asylum seeker who was denied mental health treatment for his hallucinations and paranoid delusions, on the grounds of him not being a citizen. Then, they threatened to deport him because of his mental health needs. Before the police arrived he was not violent, it was just reported that he was a "confused" man walking around a mall. Police escalated the encounter and killed him because they did not know how to handle someone dealing with a psychosis. But, of course, the government appointed prosecutors didn't find the government appointed police guilty due to "lack of evidence". I forgot to mention, the police coerced a bystander to delete the footage of his murder....
My son, who has had mental health issues his whole life, was being teased and taunted by a group of kids one night at his high school. They got into a tussle and he ended up on the ground surrounded by these kids and being kicked in the head several times. To escape he pulled a toy gun out of his backpack which caused the kids to scatter. He ran the two blocks home fearing for his life at which point several police cruisers showed up. The police ordered him to stop as he got to the front door but he said he needed to talk to his dad. As he came through the door they tased him in the back and came in and subdued him. We explained that he has mental issues and gets teased a lot by kids because of his lack of peer social skills. The police took him to the local hospital where they screened him and sent him home a few hours later. We thought that was the end of it. About a month later he received a summons in the mail declaring him a defendant with several felony charges including assault with a deadly weapon. Having to go to court caused him tremendous stress and he had a psychotic break which lasted over two weeks. He also had zoom and phone appearances where his case gets continued causing more stress. We think he is going to trial in December and he paranoid that he is going to jail.
Omg you need to get him into an early psychosis intervention clinic and physicians care. You need advice and advocates from mental health services Don't do this on your own. You will need all the support you can get to help your son. Don't let the ignorance of the police deter you Fight for your son's rights as a person with a mental illness needing help and get it as soon as possible no matter what. Early intervention is key to helping him.
That's really unfortunate. Anything to do with a gun due to a rise in domestic terrorism will bring a heavy-handed response. I can't imagine a trigger into psychosis on top of that. I've been apprehended many times, a lot with guns, they pinned me down one time and the other put me in jail as hospital didn't want to take me. Well...in a nutshell it was horrible. I got out on "Promise to Appear" form, never went to court and haven't looked back. I was also on the edge of being charged but never did. Despite not having a criminal record, the "related occurences" still mess up my opportunities.
This reminds me of a moment I had as a counselor when working at a jail. One of the guys became distraught as he was accused of self-harming and that meant he would be put in isolation to keep himself safe (there's a lot to unpack with just that). He came to see me because he was so upset about it, but unfortunately there wasn't anything I could do as it was policy. But at that moment I wanted to focus on talking to him and helping him calm down and think through what would happen so it would not feel as overwhelming to him. He was starting to calm down when the officers came into my office and basically surrounded him saying it was time for him to go. I tried asking them if they could give me a minute to keep talking with him. I wanted to walk him over there myself and keep talking to him and help him calm down, but I could tell that their presence had started to make him feel more agitated. The officers didn't even wait that long for me to even suggest this when one of them grabbed him and then they forced him to the ground and cuffed him, knocking over my desk in the process. I truly think those officers thought they were just doing their job and handling the situation as if I was simply just stalling and not getting to what needed to be done. I never forgot that moment because it really showed me how very little officers sometimes think about or know about how to deescalate a person and diffuse a situation. Those kinds of things are key for a counselor right along with having empathy. No one wants to be cuffed and dragged off if they don't have to. I really think I could have gotten him to agree to go on his own even if it was going to be a crappy situation. But I'll never even know if I could have thanks to them deciding to just get in there and throw him down on the ground.
Thank you for sharing this experience. It sounds very similar (though completely different setting) of a story my department supervisor told us Residential Counselors during Mandt Training. There was a lady in the lobby of our main office who was distraught and escalated, he managed to talk to her, apply active listening skills, and get her to de-escalate. Unbeknownst to him, the front desk had called the police. So when they showed up, she promptly escalated again. I've worked as a security officer prior to where I'm at now. I found the experience (finding the actual words for this in 2020, thanks to raised consciousness of police brutality perpetuated against black people) dehumanizing. Often the uniform is a deterrent for potential crime, and even employer attitudes are such that "we just want our security people to stand there and not say anything." Working as a Residential Counselor, this job feels much more like what I wanted security to be -- actually helping people by providing a reassuring presence, someone who can listen without judgement or exercise use of force or power.
Really interesting topic. Having a MH response team would make sense as at least they would be trained in MH and would be better placed to de-escalate a person going through a MH crisis. Here in the UK in the greater London area, the police do have access to an on call MH nurse who they can call out to help them if someone is experiencing a MH crisis. There are also some 'safe MH houses' where a person can be taken to by the police rather than to a police station if the person is not being overly aggressive or threatening. That way the person can receive some proper help from MH trained people. Problem is there are not enough places and not enough MH staff so the police are over stretched and are often left to their own devices especially at weekends when social workers don't work and are not available. In my experience with my daughter, the police generally did their best and were as understanding as they could be, but they too are expected to do too much and often feel out of their depth. We are lucky in this country that our police force aren't armed though. I cannot imagine how threatening and scary that would be to see guns being involved and I don't have MH issues myself so can only imagine how scary it would be for someone in a MH crisis
I agree interesting topic. On one side if the person doing the call is not aware that the person is suffering from mental illness she/he will call the police when the person has aggressive or very un-usual behaviour, irrespective of the structure in place. When the officer arrives on site, it is only if he is trained on mental illness issues that he will be able to adapt his behaviour to take into account this factor in the array of external signs the person shows. For this reason, I think that police needs a minimum level of training on mental illness, and this minimum must be sufficient. After all, the role of police is to police in the sense "helping people leave together in respect of each other". On the other side expecting a police officer with motives probably drawn toward muting efficiently signs of aggression in light to the last dozens of call he add in the past few days, it is not the right approach to ask of police officers to go beyond the initial response and control of the situation (which should always be managed via communication first). A tiered model is the right approach. However communication campaigns needs to be done to the larger public on the focus of police forces and their way of handling situations in a civilised way. I second what you said. My son has experienced his first visible mental illness sign with a very strong and aggressive outburst 3 months ago (but not directed toward anybody). As French living in UK we did not know the structure in place and managed to reach local A&E while neighbours were about to call the police. We convinced them that we had the situation in control and the police did not come. Now knowing how the UK system is structured I am relatively confident that if police forces had been called on-site they would have tried to manage the situation the right way. On the other side, knowing now the reasons for my son outburst I fear how he would have reacted (as his psychosis is strongly linked with the very rich controlling population and wanting to take him to be tortured). He has been in such institution since mid-July as unfortunately so far he has not been able to differentiate key elements between his psychosis and reality so that he can come back with us safely. The staff there seems to be very well trained and is extremely kind and attentive to him. I just wish we can identify a medication which can help him not be a threat to himself and others around him.
@@alexdubois6585 - I wish you luck with your son and truly hope they can help him. Unfortunately they did not help my daughter who died in their care in May of this year a week after her 20th birthday. She had autism and schizophrenia and what shocked me was the lack of understanding of autism by the medical professionals. They had no clue or understanding which lead to her being overly medicated and restrained excessively when she was having meltdowns or panic attacks. They just thought she was attention seeking. I am traumatised by it all and will continue fighting to get better ASD training in psychiatric hospitals for all staff so others do not suffer from their ignorance and lack of understanding. In our trust, there was "one" ASD trained nurse for two psychiatric hospitals. That is utterly ridiculous and she never ever even met my daughter and yet she sat in all the professional meetings advising staff on how to handle her without ever speaking to me or my daughter. It is a joke.
I haven’t watch the video yet. But my first thought was I think it depends on the situation. I was extremely depressed and call the suicide hotline. Call Pat disconnected and all of a sudden the police are at my house banging, being very very antagonistic towards me. They were yelling at me saying why didn’t you hear us say we were about a police in rolling their eyes at me. I said because I’m hearing impaired they are nasty with me and then they were like go have a great night. Do people think I’m going to reach out for help again?
Only if needed. Licensed professionals in psychiatry in some form should arrive first. Police should not make first contact. It can disturb some average people. If the police enter the scene, along with psychiatric people, they should stand back waiting so the person in crisis does not even though they are there. The police need to make themselves known only if the person becomes dangerous to themselves or others. Like all people, their presence must be calm, professional, and always with the other person in mind.
It can get screened before hand so that law enforcement is not needed at all, unless there's something at the scene that was unreported, in which case law enforcement can be called at that point.
Good luck with professionalism in a group that has trouble defining the word. You're talking about the police that by the definition of their name police force uses force to conduct themselves. Not much room for professional behavior here.
I went through this recently, had three cops agitate me..lie to me falsely accuse me of irratic driving when it was a call I had place the week prior from a Transport weaving all over the highway. I believe they were deliberately trying to agitate me to make an arrest..I was in psychosis and just wanting to sleep in my car as I believed it was be safer for my family.
When police are called out to mental health crises, it seems they are hoping to make an arrest. My landlord once called the police to make a wellness check on me because I wouldn't answer the door. The police turned up ten hours later, and asked questions such as, was I drunk, was I going to hurt anyone, had I taken illegal drugs? They also asked if I'd considered harming myself-which I had-albeit much earlier in the day. By the time I talked to them I felt a bit better. If I hadn't improved throughout the day, by the time the police arrived, it would have been far too late.
In the State of Missouri, we have a crisis intervention team (CIT) initiative. I'm a master's level social worker and work with law enforcement agencies in two Missouri counties. I often follow up with folks who have had interaction with police, due to behavioral health issues, and we also provide numerous trainings for law enforcement to better prepare them for interactions with people in crisis. I also go on calls with law enforcement from time to time. I'm somewhat new to the role, but it does have promising results.
A crisis assessment person should be available as a first responder: (1) Is there a weapon involved; and what weapon? (2) Upon assessment, a well trained mental health professional w/ability to control and defuse the situation should command and advise actions to be taken by all intervening personnel. ...This is an ever-growing issue.
@@mikemetague7973 typically that's how it works. Triage clinicians assess for immediate danger, and if there is none then the call can be answered without law enforcement. I'm part of a new program and it's already been very successful. Rapport is being reestablished, people are getting the help they need, and most importantly nobody is getting shot.
I feel like police (as well as EMTs and other professionals who come into contact with mentally ill people in crisis) should have to undergo education in regards to mental health as a part of their training. That way, they are better equipped to respond to situations like this.
They do, to varying degrees. EMT classes, police academies, and even Fire Acadmies are requiring trainees to under go basic mental health training during their courses of instruction. Also, these professions have access to mental health professionals on a 24/7 basis. Much of this was in play even pre-2020, and police officers and police departments were sounding the alarm on mental health even before it became politically-polarized issue that it has become. What did the government (Local, State, Federal) do?? They funded their pet projects (Bike Lanes, Green New Deal, etc) instead of being ahead of this what i call a "tsunami" of mental health issues, and ignored the first responders sounding the alarm. We could've had this infrastructure in place if government gave a damn about its citizens.
Police usually make me deeply uncomfortable. Every time I've interacted with them, it has been my burden to de-escalate the situation. This is difficult under the best of circumstances & has no place in a mental health crisis.
We have crisis response where we live. It’s a Mental Health Pro, an EMT and 2 law enforcement. The 1st time we went this route it was great. Between the MHP and one LEO they were able to convince our son to go to the hospital. This last time it was a nightmare. While we appreciated that LE didn’t come into the house right away, the MHP and LE agreed our son wasn’t “bad” enough despite the fact this episode was far worse than the last. He was physically aggressive, threatening to harm any/all, was actually physically harming our cat and standing in the middle of the street only in pants in 12 degree weather. On top of the clear auditory/visual hallucinations. And despite the MHP at the hospital plainly telling them he would admit him if they’d bring him in. 20 minutes after they left, he stole his mothers car and almost hit her with it in the process. But for some understanding on the part of another LEO he could have gone to jail. We realized the breakdown was there is ZERO consistency and protocol within the system. Needless to say, not only do we feel he doesn’t have a good resource, as a family we don’t either.
We have a team called the crises center here. They came to my house once. I've never been put in handcuffs by force, it must be traumatizing! Being put in handcuffs by police under my agreement to be taken to the hospital was enough! I'll call a cab the next time. I won't ever be a suicide by cop, though I've thought about it I made my decision watching this it's not worth it, I've things to live for.
My doctor sent the police to my house after a miscommunication in “I’m not gonna make it that long” in reference to my financial situation instead of ending my own life. I have had negative interactions with the police, and my negative thoughts incredibly exponentially as soon as they pulled up to my house. I got lucky that I went to school with one of the cops, but the whole way there and back, he tried to tell me how police are really just taxpayer taxis- with complete sincerity. All in all, it would have been a much worse situation if I didn’t know who Was behind the badge. We have a local mental health unit and crisis team.. but they send the cops first. I wish they had a different system where it was just the crisis unit. The cops here a few years back instigated someone’s suicide as they tried to bum rush someone with a gun in their mouth. This was before we had the mental health infrastructure in town.. I’m terrified that it will happen again.
I do like that there are places where the police are trying to educate themselves on interacting with mental health issues in areas that don't have the serves that you mentioned...problem is there just aren't enough people trained to handle all of the needs. I definitely enjoyed this topic...people don't understand what it is like to be in crisis. 🌹
I'm so proud to be part of a mobile crisis team that responds to mental health crises without law enforcement in the vast majority of cases. I also have schizoaffective and work as a peer recovery coach. It makes a world of difference having us interact with people in crisis instead of police. ps. I want your shirt!
I remember a police officer putting me in handcuffs when I was going through a crisis. I didn't understand why I was being arrested to be taken to a hospital. My nephew the same thing. I do know that they may not understand what we are going through and feel we are dangerous. Thank God we have more mental health experts working with police to respond to these crises.
You know what it is, we don't have explicit rights regarding MI. There should be some rehearsed disclosure of what is being done and why it is being done. Especially with the juveniles that have an MI.
You were not arrested, in the legal sense. You simply handcuffed for the protection of yourself and others on that scene, as well as the safety of the hospital workers.
As someone who was in law enforcement for over 16 year! Specifically corrections. I was heavily trained on mental. Along with any brief training, police are left to make decisions quickly in order to eliminate harm! But most police conflict training of what harm actually means! I can proudly say that in my over 16years of service, I have never had a physical altercation. I know how to talk and listen. People want to be treated like people! And not everyone displays the ability to communicate. I won’t get into the instances of the lack there of! We are well aware that these officers exist! You are absolutely right police, unless relentlessly trained in mental health should not be responding.
I have never called 911 in a mental health crisis. I tell my parents, they use child locks on the car, and drive me to an ER. Works well, but I am not stable enough to live on my own. In that case may need to rely on emergency responders.
It was about twenty years ago that I was the healthcare conservator for a college age, female (a good friend of my daughters) who had mental health challenges. There were a few occasions where she was clearly experiencing difficulties and I was immediately called and arrived before the (male) police. In each instance, instead of deescalating the situation, the police amplified the volatility of the situation by aggressively trying to "take charge" of a situation that was loud and distinctly uncomfortable but not dangerous. Their training is for violent or potentially violent situations for which aggressively taking control is often warranted. In the mental health episodes I witnessed, that aggression just made the situation worse by inflaming the mental crisis this strong willed young woman was experiencing. Those were some of the most frightening experiences in my life. On another occasion, two older women who were healthcare workers came to address a similar situation. Their approach was completely different in that they were able to gently engage the person in crisis and, before too long, have her accompany them to the hospital for an involuntary 48-hour hold. As Lauren indicates, the police unfortunately have little or no training in mental health issues. Their jobs can be extremely unpredictable and dangerous to others as well as to themselves. As a result, the tactics used to deal with what is, or might be, a criminal situation are typically counterproductive in dealing with a person having a psychotic episode. Thank you Lauren for another important video!
While I empathize with not calling the police in situations of domestic disturbance without violent intent, such as psychotic behavior without violent intent or excessive noise, I think saying that police shouldn't be called in a "mental health issue" scenario is a bit reductionist.. couldn't the same be said about someone with "genuine violent intent" if their specific neural signature were to be determined as to be causing their impulses, and discount any police intervention in such a scenario in favor of resources allocated for "mental health issues" as well? Where is the boundary?
I live In Idaho in the US and we also have a crisis line specifically for mental health and substance use issues. I've used it before and found it helpful. It's run by the state Health and Welfare and they will often refer people to community resources and can transport someone to a hospital or inpatient facility if they determine that's necessary or appropriate. The one time I went to inpatient, I rode in a regular car with them to a normal hospital that had a mental health section connected to their emergency services. One of the limitations I see with it though is that it's separate from other emergency dispatches. It's a separate phone number that isn't widely known or advertised. If someone just called 911 because that's what they knew offhand, the emergency dispatch, to my knowledge, isn't well trained or equipped either to respond effectively to mental health issues.
I think it’s a good idea to have a separate service for mental health crisis. The police already deal with enough. It would be less intimidating to someone with anxiety also.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I would also add that even if someone experiencing psychosis or other mental health crisis does commit a crime and they are arrested, they should be treated for their mental health condition first, not held in jail or have to navigate the justice system while in crisis. Thank you for making this video.
I for one agree 💯. It's a health condition and the person with MI should be treated as a health crisis. I also believe drug induced crisis situations should be handled as a health issue. Oregon has made drugs free from penality rather something that is health related. Most of these people need empathy and kindness to get them through there tough times. Training in empathy responsiveness is key.
I was part of a mental health crisis team in Australia. It was available 24/7 and could be called directly by someone in crisis or a concerned friend/relative. For the great majority of interventions, the involvement of police would have been a waste of resources and, frankly, a bit ridiculous. One incident of concern I could recall was a wife calling to say her farmer husband (someone known by the service to have mental health problems) was in the middle of a paddock with a gun saying he would shoot anyone who came near. I wanted to call the police to disarm him first but the psychiatrist on duty decided we should visit and check it out. The psychiatrist went to the person in the paddock (very brave) while I stayed on the other side of the fence (not so brave). The psychiatrist was unable to engage the person in treatment then but thought he could be left alone for the time being. 24hrs later the person engaged in appropriate treatment with his usual psychiatric carer.
The system for mental help is no good. One of my daughters just got out of a mental hospital after just 2 weeks it’s ridiculous how they let her go once the insurance runs out. She’s homeless on the street why don’t they make hospital with nice rooms for much longer stays… my heart is broken that I can’t help her. I called the cops they said she’s a adult and they can’t help her find shelter…. Mental institutions need to come back in New York
Would you want to spend the rest of your life imprisoned in an institution because you have an illness? There are alternatives to institutions that allow people to live in the community, such as an ILF or board & care.
I will say that there are a lot of cops who don't know how to handle people with mental illness. But I work in a facility with elders who have schizophrenia, and there have been two cops who have always handled the situation very well the rare time we do have to call them. One reason why we've called the cops in the past is because one resident will scream bloody murder and scare the other residents in the building. And honestly, the word "scream" doesn't even convey how loud he is; I've never heard someone scream so loudly in my entire life. He's even physically assaulted staff in the past mutliple times. So when we did call the cops, the one officer handled him very well and talked him down enough where he stayed calm for the rest of the night. Other officers have also talked to them conversationally to make them feel less paranoid, and those officers are the ones we always try to ask for by name. I don't know if they've ever received professional training for mental illness (which they should), but those specific officers have always done their job in the best way possible. I'm not saying every cop is good in handling people with mental illness, but I just wanted to share my positive experience with them.
Agree, I think police should come in second not first. Growing up in a predominant low income Hispanic community and seeing my mom get handcuffed multiple times we were at the mercy of the police officer’s awareness on mental illness. Some were wonderful in approaching her others not so much. I don’t think police want to respond to these crisis, what I’ve notice in California is that there just isn’t enough mental health workers available for these much needed positions. Hoping for change in the future.
Last year, I asked the King County Mental Health Center to send over social workers to talk with my psychotic roommate to try and get him treatment, I was at my wit’s end on what to do. Unfortunately, when the social workers showed up, there was nothing they could do because he refused to talk with them. I was really disappointed in that, and I don’t know if they just didn’t have the best tactics to engage him or if they really do have their hands tied. My roommate is a lawyer, and the social workers told me they generally have more difficult times when the people they are dealing with are lawyers or cops. But I wish there was easier recourse for family members and loved ones to deal with psychotic people who refuse to cooperate and refuse treatment.
Lauren, thank you so much for talking about this and sharing your experiences related to this topic.. I have had my own experiences and often feel ashamed for it. Sending much love to everyone in the community and anyone struggling.
I completely agree with the idea that police are not well trained in interacting with individuals in a mental health crisis.. by a long shot. I am a clinician with a crisis team. Mental health is just not well funded. It’s getting better but there’s a lot of work needed to be done. I’m proud to say that our crisis team co responds with police when possible. Police need to be better trained, they’re not going anywhere.
I work in a crisis team too. We only use police if there's an immediate threat of violence or a weapon involved. Otherwise we're perfectly capable of handling these situations without law enforcement.
I’ve been forced to call out police for my teen daughter by the poor private mental health care for teens in this city of my country. There’s only been one officer who was embarrassingly useless. Others have been wonderful, even better than ambos. They’ve had good training and are compassionate rather than egocentric.
I am in Glasgow Scotland. I have told my family if my Depression and Anxiety ever gets bad to phone the police. Our police are not routinely armed so have de-escalation methods. I have been in my local mental health unit when the police have brought someone in having a mental breakdown they hand them to psychiatric nurse to be assessed. The US seems to have a shoot first and ask questions later policy. Also the mental seem to be scape goated for mass shootings. On defund the police. Glasgow has 189 gangs some a century old. For years the only way to deal with it was make the police the biggest gang in failed year on year. Then we had a violence reduction team formed. Police, social workers housing and I would say gang members mothers were brought together to work of solutions. Gang leaders and there mothers were brought together and shown the effect of gang violence the cities hospitals were dealing with. Gang leaders were told if they did not attend there gang would be targeted. It worked gang violence is down. It was agreed the way to kill a gang was give prospective members other options also pride in there communities decent housing so a prison cell with 3 meals a day is less attractive options. Conservatives in Glasgow hate it because they are full of macho BS. There will be bumps in the road but our government is playing the long game. Take Care Stay Safe.
I live in Perth Australia. In the last 10 years our police have formed what they call Mental Health Co-response teams, where a psychiatric nurse is placed with a police unit and they are responsible for attending calls or tasks that involve actual or possible mental health issues. The police take a back seat to interactions and are there to support the nurse. I don't have any stats but I am sure that this is a far better solution to having police attend to a person who may be having mental health issues when they have received the bare minimum training. I am not saying that the above is the best solution, but it is a step in the right direction. I applaud you for talking about this subject. I takes people like your self to speak about the actual effects having non-trained people attend to what is a health issue. Please keep up your videos, I hope some police watch them and learn something. I'm not bagging police, I like them, but we can't expect them to deal with mental illness if they are not trained.
Thank you so much, Lauren, for speaking on this issue. I 100% agree, law enforcement needs to take a back seat when responding to mental health crisis unless the responding team or the public is in imminent danger. Because I despise police and their tyranny to the general public, I will never call 911 on me or my wife in crisis (we both have mental illness). So the fact that many people with mental health issues are affraid of police highlights an important point: more people would probably call 911 and get the care they need if it weren't for interaction with law enforcement. Thanks again, Lauren, this needs to be said over and over.
Based on what I read on Wikipedia, the program that you mentioned in Oregon only responds to cases of addiction, disorientation, mental health crises, and homelessness when they know the individuals don't pose a danger to others. Also, the proportion of calls to which police would have responded were it not for them was only 5-8% of their calls. This means that mental health cases that show any indications of violence or aggression will not be directed to them in the first place.
Ive had plenty of officers check in on me. They actually helped calm me down quite a bit, and helped me find resources even if it wasnt an emergency (People have called in wellness checks). This is personally objective, but I support the idea of them coming. I have a track record of self violence or psychotic breaks (got a lot calmer in recent years). One thing to remember is they have ACE training like in the military and know to remain calm and reach out. Both MPs and Civilian side have helped me greatly.
In my Wisconsin city it's a crap shoot as to police that arrive--maybe good, maybe not. This is the city police. My country's sheriffs department has won awards for their treatment of the mentally ill but unfortunately they don't work within my city. As a 17 year old when my daughter first become mentally ill and lived at home in a Chicago suburb she "stole" a car one night (likely the keys were left in it). A cop car stopped her because she was driving without the lights on. One cop wanted to take her to the Cook County jail, not a good place, but his partner convinced him that she needed to go to the hospital and so that's where they took her. Later that year she happened to see that cop who spoke out for her and she thanked him for what he did. But overall her experiences with the police being mentally ill have not been good.
The 2x I was in crisis, I felt safer with the police, than the people around me. I guess it depends on the interactions you've had pre-crisis. The NJSP, IDK if they are crisis trained, but where I live they know most of us and talk to us.
One of the most heart breaking things I have ever witnessed was my 16 year old son who suffers from CPTSD and bipolar plead with police not to tase him during in a mental health call out. A child. Police have no business handling mental health crisis.
Stop being soft. Handcuffs and a Taser are excellent ways of asserting boundaries and showing the mentally unstable what are the consequences of them stepping on your toes. The best boundary is one which is brutally asserted.
My son was in crisis, and the police were called by the behavioral health team for transport to the hospital. He was tazzed in the head and chest and beat with a their club. There is a missing link in our system. And it's dangerous.
Sooo important to talk about. Wonderful post, thank you again! I think that a team of people trained to help with emotional/mental/ behavioral issues available to respond would be soooooo helpful. Duh! Unfortunately this is not available, leaving us forced to rely on mental health officers (police). “Help” is scarcely avail. enough when it’s asked for, and is often only available involuntarily, or when someone is no longer volunteering that they need help. Also, it seems important for a care team of responders to be able to make a “legal” report of the incident, much like when police respond. This way, there is evidence from the report to use if someone does need “forced” help of some sort. For example if a family member needs to obtain power of attorney, during a period when a loved one is non responsive and unable to care for their responsibilities. Also, the insurance companies neeeeed to stop being able to dictate what health care providers are able to to provide. No more “treat & street” help. More people would volunteer for help if they actually got real help when they asked. In general, the police need a ton more training to be more emotionally aware of the community they are suppose to be serving, instead of punishing and disciplining. Police are often bullies, so are prison guards, in part, because they are primarily trained to be punitive or punishing. I love how you have established a care team for yourself. If only it were easier to get a person experiencing a paranoid psychotic episode to recognize it, and thus be more able to build themselves a care team. This would probably happen more , the paranoia might lessen, if our care team responders were properly trained, non gas lighting, non abusive workers! Uniting one day at a time, in support, and compassion for one another sounds better to me. Sometimes, the medications don’t work! So Lauren, I’d also love for you to go into more depth in talking about treatment alternatives, nootropics, self medicating, genetic electromagnetic therapies, wabi mri testing, mdmr therapy, micro dosing, a self chosen care team and who that should include, from a shaman, to a psychiatrist, therapist, etc. and the pros and cons of each, what is legally available in the US, and again, about “health”. What are the healthiest cultures around the world, and why?
I know this video is old, but as a mental health officer (my only job, not patrol), I would disagree. Responding to a person in crisis can be dangerous. This is because people suffering from substance abuse disorders have symptoms that mimic severe mental illnesses. Those people are typically more prone to violence. I could go on and on about this. Also, the number of people I have helped is very rewarding. Emergency Detentions in Texas can only be done by Peace Officers. This way there is no conflict of intrest in the Healthcare system. We have resources to call to include mobile crisis counseling, community paramedics, and psychiatrist. I do have some issues with our mental health system but overall we work hard with a number of agencies/ programs to get a person help. Our police have 40 hour training for mental health and are continously learning from me as I respond to their scenes.
I am from Australia and work in a suicide prevention role that sometimes needs to organize for interventions to be undertaken. I have also worked in hospitals. I am not sure what it is like in other countries but here in Australia paramedics are assaulted daily by all types of patients including ones in mental health crisis, which is not a thing any person in their role should have to endure especially when they are just trying to help people. Police here are required to undertake mental health crisis training and they are the first people to attend when an intervention for risks of imminent suicide are done as unfortunately many people in these situations talk about having a knife or gun or so on to take their life and a lot of people also say that if the police attend someone will die. Being put at that risk in not a paramedics job and I fully understand that having the police attend is traumatic, I hear about how bad it can be directly from people who have had this happen. But at the same time everyone deserves a safe work place and so the right protective steps need to be taken to protect our health care workers. As a person who worked in a hospital I left that role as I generally was assaulted around 3 times a week by patients who were at risk for many different reasons (majority were not mental health) and many of the patients didn't even remember what happened. The final straw was when I was assaulted so badly that I had to get an operation on my knee. I am writing this before watching your video and may edit this once watching it, and I will admit I have Bipolar type 2 and PTSD myself and am experienced at both sides of the picture. I just hope you can all look at both sides of the picture and not just the person in crisis at that time. Vicarious trauma rates and assault on health care workers is way to high and they don't deserve that. I also agree dramatic improvements need to occur in mental health support, the resources available are extremely insufficient and most changes implemented are done entirely without consultation with the people the changes are made for.
The difficulty, at least in the US, is that a separate unit from the police would cost taxpayer money for training and upkeep. I would personally support this, especially as someone who has had interactions with police who were clearly untrained in the sort of situation to which they were responding, but convincing your average taxpayer to support such a thing would be quite the uphill battle.
I cut my wrist after having a terrible panic attack during a depressive episode and I called 911 for help. I was bleeding out of my wrist very badly and for a brief moment of clarity I realized I didn’t want to die but needed help fast. A police officer arrived first and perceiving me as a threat handcuffed me (while my wrist was bleeding out). I felt like a criminal. He kept me handcuffed until the paramedics arrived.
I can only say yes when there are times that somebody is having a mental health crisis where they may harm themselves or others police could be involved in resolving that situation. I used to work at a psych hospital and I was shocked that on a daily basis when a patient didn’t return to hospital after section 17 leave the police were informed and acted upon that immediately to bring the patient back to hospital. This is U.K. law btw.
I have dealt with police when in crisis. Some can handle it, some can't. Some are very understanding and some aren't. I think if the place you are in has a trained crisis team then cool, but if not and no one on the force has actual training, then send out a social worker or something with them. However, you can't send a social worker out alone. In the US, the police respond to everything first and I dont see the gov. Changing that anytime soon. I think the best thing a person who has mental health issues and is afraid that the police won't understand is to get a medical bracelet and put your diagnosis and your doctors name and number on it. As far as you can be cooperative and docile. Here in the US if you play along, the police will give you the choice of taking the ambulance, as a medical emergency or them having to take you, which requires reports, possibly a court date and it will be on your record, if a background check is done. I work for the court and if the police are involved to the point where you have to be cuffed and dragged to the psychward or the psychward in jail, then the court becomes involved. Alot of times that is how people get the services they need, the court. We have community services, but there are those who won't take advantage of them. Seeing it from both sides of the story, being the one in crisis and the one who works with those helping to get people treatment, I can tell you, if they send a social worker out, the police will be the first on the scene and have to clear the scene. Then the social worker can come in. There are too many drug attics, now, who present as having mental health problems and when someone tries to interact with them, they become agitated and dangerous. It is seen as too great a risk. Right now there is this whole thing of dual diagnosis, which is understandable, but the focus has switched off of the person with just the mh issue, to the drug addict that has both issues. An unfortunately, we (just mh) get caught up in the mess and treated like incoherent druggies. I've had this experience personally. I speak up for those of us who are just mh reminding people that we are nonviolent and not taking any unprescribed drugs, but it falls on deaf ears... until the test comes back.
I work on a mobile crisis response team. Our teams consist of a licensed clinician, a case manager, and a peer recovery coach. We respond to all calls unless there is an immediate threat or a known weapon. The idea that we're incapable of deescalating people in crisis without police is absurd. I also have schizoaffective and have been handcuffed 3 times by police when I was in crisis. I had not been doing anything threatening at all and it definitely worsened my symptoms. I'm so glad this program is in place now so others don't have to experience what I did (and worse).
it should be an ambulance not the police. i called the crisis hotline and theytalk me into going to the hospital and they call 911 and police put handcuffs on me and assume i broke the law. every drug admission in the hospital is voluntary. police will never take a drug addiction to the mental clinic. they will always arrest them. even if the person wanted to go to the hospital. they will get arrested with no care but abstinence to recover from drug addictions. the hospital will prescribe drugs and help the homeless get into sober living through counseling. police will arrest them, force them to sober from no medication unless it was already prescribed and they will never give a schedule medication. they will make the person sit in jail and take them to court for drug use for further prison sentences. and if they cannot arrest a drug addict they will leave them on the street. drug addiction starts by self admitting in a psychiatric hospital or ward. from there you can go into sober living. they have therapy and everything.
I love your videos!! Definitely, the police should not be involved in rescuing people in any kind of mental health crisis. A qualified team must be called upon to provide humanized and adequate care for this already fragile person who only needs HELP AND SUPPORT.
In my country, when someone is in mental crisis we mental health workers go. We even have a special ambulance for people that are hospitalized (against their will). But we do call our 911 when people in crisis become an immediate threat to themselves and/or others. I do think our police is different than the usa though, not every cop carries a gun here and police does try to learn how to de-escalate in mental crisis cases. It’s still far from perfect though and we have much to learn.
Sometimes. My mom responded to a call with someone with mental problems who was building his own guns and bombs. She was pretty grateful that the police were there as well. But of course, the police shouldn't be the only one responding. And the cops should have specially trained cops to respond to these crises.
They responded to my daughter during one of her explosive attacks. They treated her like she did something wrong and fined her. I do believe officers are receiving additional mental health training now though.
I agree with all this. I don't think police should be involved in health crisis situations, mental or physical. I only have one experience with police and mental health. But it was the campus police at my school and they were trained quite well I think. When I worked for the university I got the same training they did and it was very helpful. The campus police just made sure I was stable and helped me get to the ambulance without falling. But it was really terrifying to see them!! I was so scared that they would hurt me. I don't have a lot of faith in police and I've heard so many awful stories of people who were fall less lucky than me.
I called the police for a domestic abuse situation going on. It was mental and verbal abuse going on that has been going on since I was a kid. I’m disabled. So, it’s a lot harder for me to get out of the situation. The police were useless. Unless something is physical, they don’t really do anything. Plus, the cop I dealt with was horrible. He made it sound like I called for no reason and that if he had wrecked on the way here, it’d be my fault. He literally said that to me. That’s really good for someone who is already in a toxic living situation. Don’t get me started on Adult Protective Services. What a joke. What’s confusing about the police thing to me is that in their line of work, usually criminals they deal with anyway have some sort of mental health issue. So, you’d think they’d have a lot more training in that area.
It all depends on the situation. If someone with mental illness are committing a crime and or especially being violent the police should definitely be the first responders. Social/mental health workers don’t want to respond to a person being violent and they’re not equipped to deal with such situations. If someone is simply having a non violent non criminal mental health crisis you send out the appropriate social/mental health care worker.
We used to have a crisis intervention team of trained police but due to budget cuts, not so much anymore. They are moving towards employing social workers to accompany police or instead of police to manage the mental health calls.
Then we should allow lmhc and non license therapists be able to section of needed. Because i have have called mobile crisis and they told me to call the police. It's hard as a therapist to not get the police involved
My Nami group facilitator frequently visits police departments and the jail facilities to talk to the officers about how to better handle a mental health crisis. I'm not sure it's doing enough though to counteract The authoritarian training they received to deal with actual violent criminals.
I live in Dickson, TN and I had my first psychosis spell in 2016. I had to be admitted to our local hospital and then sent via police officer to a mental hospital in Nashville. I was not handcuffed though.
Love your videos! I have Major Depressive Disorder. I have genuinly never had a interaction because of an episode but i have been a victim of being labeled and had police called because i can be vunrable when in an episode and not wanting to do something someone else wants me to do. People in domestic situations knowing ..and trying to use it against me.
I was really worried about my son’s mental health (he has decided he has no use for psychiatrists or medication) and at the end of my rope. I called the Mental Health Crisis Line here in Edmonton and was shocked to learn that the police showed up at my son’s apartment! That was not only unhelpful but could have turned out very badly since he absolutely hates police and has what I consider irrational beliefs about them. I expected that a mental health team would have handled the call. I will not be so naive next time.
Long story short. One mentioned of cops being involved from my situation in the past. "Open-minded community job centres" just goes: "Hahaha, bye 👋 ." I would love to know if a community of people with schizophrenia have tried communicating with the police community. (If such a thing is even possible or have already been done.) If I could tell a cop one thing about a MH crises. "We might think we are Neo... once the movie hits theaters." They might take this seriously or not but I know delusions can have inspirations from media. And if they find that unsatisfactory I can always tell them. "Haha, bye 👋" Point is maybe we could give them an idea of what to expect.
I'm traumatized by getting arrested by the police to I'm ADHD I don't trust the police never have and never will they dont have my respect at all isolate myself in the house I don't go out
Absolutely No a million times over. I have first hand experience and absolutely nothing good has come of any part of our police service. It only made things in not only my life but our whole family’s life worse in more ways then one.
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i lived in nashville TN and if you call 911 in a crisis , they send out a crisis mobile unit that are trained to deal with people in mental crisis . more places should do that
Denver does this, as well.
As an industry, we're working on it!
yes I wish 9klahoma did
My city does that as well. Two officers respond - the traditional officer and the one trained for mental health. The mental health trained officer was a real blessing when he was called to my home. He was extremely helpful and provided my family with the resources for my family member to get help. Mental health issues are tough because people in a Psychosis can be very dangerous to themselves and others. They also have to deal with the dangers that come with drug users and mental health. Someone in cardiac arrest isn’t capable of hurting another human being, but someone in a psychosis whether drug induced or not is capable of harming another. It’s a very tough situation to navigate.
@@joshuabarnes9668 if the police give you the choice between ambulance and police car and cuffs, i call that understanding.
I was offloaded to the police when reporting worsening depression, anxiety, and increased substance abuse precipitated by a highly toxic work environment. I called my then company's EAP hotline in search of an in-network therapist or counselor, and I was not suicidal, but the woman on the other end thought I COULD harm myself. The policemen were very nice -- one came outside so I could smoke a cigarette before they took me to an ER "voluntarily" (not voluntary at all!). I am not a fan of the police being involved in these situations generally. This can collapse somebody's career or livelihood and leave them destitute. If you have a security clearance, an incident like this can destroy your career (happened to me... now I'm out of work with severe PTSD and may be homeless pretty soon... how did THAT help?). Thank you for bringing this topic up. The comments are mixed and interesting.
ETA: I agree with your sympathetic view toward the police -- this is outside of their scope.
I have BPD and unfortunately I have had the RCMP come to my apartment many times when I have contacted crisis lines about having self harmed or wanting to unalive. Out of the dozens of officers I have interacted with, only one has ever treated me with respect and dignity. Whenever I tell officers that I do not wish to give them my health information they become personally offended, and I have seen officers even become defensive when I said that I did not want to speak with them about my disorder. Keep in mind all of this is in spite of me being calm the entire time and complying with anything they told me to do.
I say this to everyone, and especially to the officer that told me police should be doing this work: Unless you have personally experienced what it is like to be the patient in these crises, you have no right to weigh in on this issue. And if you are an officer, your ego has nothing to do with this because your presence alone is causing trauma.
Happen to me last year. Brutalized by the police and I'm treated like it's my fault.
4:19 "The root issue here is that we do not see mental health yet as what it truly is: a HEALTH issue. We would never send police to respond to someone in cardiac arrest but for some reason this is who we send to respond to someone in psychosis or someone who is suicidal." This is such an excellent take. Great to know about the Eugene, OR model as well. As someone who has had a mental health apprehension, I want to say thank you for making this well-researched and articulate video.
Well though that sounds like a good analogy MI can be dangerous because individuals with MI can be very agressive when psychotic or manic.
One way my state deals with this is to ask if the person calling out for help has weapons on them. If the answer is yes..they send in the police if not the EMS alone. I know I've been in both situations. in Ny it was different. They ask if you are homicidal or suicidal, and respectively follow through. I was cuffed once there. I really didn't understand why expect in hindsight. Safety is preliminary. I approve of such policy and policing. But I guess it could be better here in some way and in other places as well.
I live in California, USA. I have major depression. I've never had a psychotic episode and am not violent; only very sad and tired a lot. I've had several interactions with law enforcement when in depression, never from me calling for them. All interactions have been threateningly negative. Here's one example.
One night, I had left home and gone for a drive because I was somewhat despondent and this helps. I had parked out in some woods to sit and be calm, to see if the despair would "break" a bit. Flashing lights rolled up behind me. I was not parked illegally or anything. When the officer (a county sheriff) approached, I fully opened my door slowly so that he could see I was no threat to him. When he asked why I was there, I was honest and told him. He asked for my driver license and returned to his truck. After some time (I assume checking my record, where he would find nothing as I've no traffic incidents and no arrests), he came back and asked me to go over my "story" again. I again said I was just suffering from a night of more severe depression and had left to get away from home. He asked if I'd been drinking or if I had taken any drugs. No. I was completely sober. When asked, I made it a clear point that I was not suicidal--and I wasn't. I have had this disease for 32 years and I know.
After pressing me more, he again left my car saying he needed to call his partner. I weigh about 130 lbs and he at least 200. Why another officer? He still had my license. Eventually, another truck rolled up and another sheriff got out. They conferred for awhile and then the second one brought a dog all the way around my car (how they do drug detection). The K-9 had no reaction. Nevertheless, the first officer again asked me more questions with the second officer there, and he tried spinning some details I had given him as if they were false. He said some things that were patently false. I simply repeated what I had said before. They both walked away saying they needed to check some more things "and then they would get out of my hair."
All told, I was detained for over an hour. When the first officer finally returned my license to me and said I could go, I drove away. The officer followed me for several miles before turning a different direction. I drove very carefully, of course. It was nerve wracking and no help to my mental state.
I realized several things from this interaction:
1. Officers form their own narrative about a situation and pursue it, whether it is true or not. In my estimation, they really thought I was a drug addict or something.
2. Officers are not there to help you. Their motive is to detain you, try to trip you up so they can detain you further, and if possible, arrest you. They were really pressing me for a reason to do so. Trying to help a depressed person have a better day does not involve a K-9 unit under suspicion of narcotics.
3. If one, then two officers can spend over an hour shaking up a depressed person and don't have anything more serious to attend to, then they have way too much time and resources or are misdirected in their mission. I posed no harm to anyone, not even myself. I was out there alone. There was no need for this.
Your mistake was in talking to them in the first place. Never interact with cops, luv 🙌💚💚💚 sending you peace and restorative vibes
@@dianeaishamonday9125 I appreciate your sympathy. I just can't envision how it would have gone, though, for me to have sat there in my vehicle alone in the middle of nowhere, window up and not responding, to a much larger than I and firearm-carrying officer. But moreover, my point with this is that from my experiences, law enforcement does not handle mental illness at all well or decently, even one such as mine that I would think is completely non-threatening in its presentation as I specifically described in this incident. It was to speak to the question asked by the video, because when they are called, the police almost certainly *are going* to intervene in the situation and the person in crisis will have no choice but to deal with them.
And all that time lost from your meditation. Yesterday I was able to "talk" to a whale, a seal, two sea lions, a river otter and several sea birds without one cop thinking that I shouldn't be where I was. I can imagine so many scenerios where this simple interaction with the real world would change in a matter of seconds.
It's horrifying that you had to go through such a disgusting interaction. I have depression and I can't imagine how defeated and scared I would feel if cops approached me in one of my car rides - because I usually drive alone to quiet places to relax too. The thought of being harrased in a place that probably felt sacred to you is scary, I applaud the way you held your temper (not that you should feel the need to, but you get my point).
I hope you're feeling a bit safer now. I know first hand how these type of derogatory interactions completely destroy our already frail sense of belonging and further deepen an aching for solitude... This is why Lauren's point about cops being unfit for mental care actions is completely true.
I'm sending you a hug and I hope you get better luck next time ❤❤❤
@@dianeaishamonday9125 I get what you're saying, but it was not their mistake, it was the cops who failed. And it's not like this person had any other option, right? If they resisted the approach or gave an evasive answer, the situation would have been probably worse...
Hey Lauren! I'm working with the CMHA to implement non-police response teams in British Columbia. Your points are spot on and I'm so glad to see you speaking out about this issue. I have been watching your videos for months to learn about schizophrenia and mental illness. I really look up to you and I am so inspired by your work and leadership on mental illness! You are helping implement better crisis response teams through these videos and your work! Thank you so much ☺️
Well said Lauren. Totally agree with you
Thank God. They are horrible, I had one not even understand what was happening, harass me and my family then at the end of the very tense exchange finally realize I was suicidal. terrible. I hate the police.
Absolutely not unless there are weapons or danger involved & even then the police should not be in charge. My daughter was having a psychotic breakdown on the street believing a bunch of guys were following her to gang rape her. Her case manager & a crisis worker found her & convinced her to voluntarily get into the back of a police car to go to the hospital ER just blocks away. But when they pulled into the ER bay & the door closed down & she panicked, seeing the cops as 2 big guys out to hurt her, and they did. When she wouldn't get out of the car, one of the cops dragged her out and twisted her arm behind her. She screamed, "You broke my arm!!!" and he did--a spiral fracture in 2 places, the kind of thing that if parents bring in the child having that child protection services get called. And with her arm broken they then strapped my daughter to a gurney. She has PTSD as a result.
I used to work in a psychiatric closed ward and the police were not especially pleased when a patient ran a way and they were supposed to bring the person back. They didn't feel equipped for it - and to be honest they thought it was a waste of their time.
I used to have a friend that was a "regular" at the psychiatric emergency unit. She didn't suffer from Schizophrenia but from severe BPD and she was very explicit, and physical, with her suffering - and could be considered a real pain in the b** by the people that were supposed to deal with her when she was at her worst. She used to call me when she was in that state and at one time she told me that she'd been banned from "ambulance assistance", they refused to take her on because she'd trashed the interiors the time before and t h e y' d called the police.
She was an exception but my experience is that people seem to underestimate the fear that people (including myself) with severe illnesses feel. They just see the "big gestures" and don't see the fear. I remember one time when I sat down beside a young man (I was also quite young), he'd been forcefully put on the ground and injected with a tranquilizer. He looked at me and said "Aren't you afraid of me?" And when I said "No", he asked "Well, would you give me a hug?" It was a fantastic moment that I'll treasure forever.
When I was a kid, I knew a child whose stepfather got killed from policemen all piling on top of him... The story goes that he had done drugs and gotten violent after hearing he would be deported and then the police accidentally killed him when he resisted arrest.
In truth, he was an asylum seeker who was denied mental health treatment for his hallucinations and paranoid delusions, on the grounds of him not being a citizen. Then, they threatened to deport him because of his mental health needs. Before the police arrived he was not violent, it was just reported that he was a "confused" man walking around a mall. Police escalated the encounter and killed him because they did not know how to handle someone dealing with a psychosis. But, of course, the government appointed prosecutors didn't find the government appointed police guilty due to "lack of evidence". I forgot to mention, the police coerced a bystander to delete the footage of his murder....
My son, who has had mental health issues his whole life, was being teased and taunted by a group of kids one night at his high school. They got into a tussle and he ended up on the ground surrounded by these kids and being kicked in the head several times. To escape he pulled a toy gun out of his backpack which caused the kids to scatter. He ran the two blocks home fearing for his life at which point several police cruisers showed up. The police ordered him to stop as he got to the front door but he said he needed to talk to his dad. As he came through the door they tased him in the back and came in and subdued him. We explained that he has mental issues and gets teased a lot by kids because of his lack of peer social skills. The police took him to the local hospital where they screened him and sent him home a few hours later. We thought that was the end of it. About a month later he received a summons in the mail declaring him a defendant with several felony charges including assault with a deadly weapon. Having to go to court caused him tremendous stress and he had a psychotic break which lasted over two weeks. He also had zoom and phone appearances where his case gets continued causing more stress. We think he is going to trial in December and he paranoid that he is going to jail.
Omg you need to get him into an early psychosis intervention clinic and physicians care. You need advice and advocates from mental health services
Don't do this on your own. You will need all the support you can get to help your son. Don't let the ignorance of the police deter you
Fight for your son's rights as a person with a mental illness needing help and get it as soon as possible no matter what. Early intervention is key to helping him.
That's really unfortunate.
Anything to do with a gun due to a rise in domestic terrorism will bring a heavy-handed response. I can't imagine a trigger into psychosis on top of that.
I've been apprehended many times, a lot with guns, they pinned me down one time and the other put me in jail as hospital didn't want to take me.
Well...in a nutshell it was horrible.
I got out on "Promise to Appear" form, never went to court and haven't looked back.
I was also on the edge of being charged but never did. Despite not having a criminal record, the "related occurences" still mess up my opportunities.
This reminds me of a moment I had as a counselor when working at a jail. One of the guys became distraught as he was accused of self-harming and that meant he would be put in isolation to keep himself safe (there's a lot to unpack with just that). He came to see me because he was so upset about it, but unfortunately there wasn't anything I could do as it was policy. But at that moment I wanted to focus on talking to him and helping him calm down and think through what would happen so it would not feel as overwhelming to him. He was starting to calm down when the officers came into my office and basically surrounded him saying it was time for him to go. I tried asking them if they could give me a minute to keep talking with him. I wanted to walk him over there myself and keep talking to him and help him calm down, but I could tell that their presence had started to make him feel more agitated. The officers didn't even wait that long for me to even suggest this when one of them grabbed him and then they forced him to the ground and cuffed him, knocking over my desk in the process. I truly think those officers thought they were just doing their job and handling the situation as if I was simply just stalling and not getting to what needed to be done. I never forgot that moment because it really showed me how very little officers sometimes think about or know about how to deescalate a person and diffuse a situation. Those kinds of things are key for a counselor right along with having empathy. No one wants to be cuffed and dragged off if they don't have to. I really think I could have gotten him to agree to go on his own even if it was going to be a crappy situation. But I'll never even know if I could have thanks to them deciding to just get in there and throw him down on the ground.
Thank you for sharing this experience. It sounds very similar (though completely different setting) of a story my department supervisor told us Residential Counselors during Mandt Training. There was a lady in the lobby of our main office who was distraught and escalated, he managed to talk to her, apply active listening skills, and get her to de-escalate. Unbeknownst to him, the front desk had called the police. So when they showed up, she promptly escalated again.
I've worked as a security officer prior to where I'm at now. I found the experience (finding the actual words for this in 2020, thanks to raised consciousness of police brutality perpetuated against black people) dehumanizing. Often the uniform is a deterrent for potential crime, and even employer attitudes are such that "we just want our security people to stand there and not say anything."
Working as a Residential Counselor, this job feels much more like what I wanted security to be -- actually helping people by providing a reassuring presence, someone who can listen without judgement or exercise use of force or power.
Really interesting topic. Having a MH response team would make sense as at least they would be trained in MH and would be better placed to de-escalate a person going through a MH crisis.
Here in the UK in the greater London area, the police do have access to an on call MH nurse who they can call out to help them if someone is experiencing a MH crisis. There are also some 'safe MH houses' where a person can be taken to by the police rather than to a police station if the person is not being overly aggressive or threatening. That way the person can receive some proper help from MH trained people. Problem is there are not enough places and not enough MH staff so the police are over stretched and are often left to their own devices especially at weekends when social workers don't work and are not available.
In my experience with my daughter, the police generally did their best and were as understanding as they could be, but they too are expected to do too much and often feel out of their depth. We are lucky in this country that our police force aren't armed though. I cannot imagine how threatening and scary that would be to see guns being involved and I don't have MH issues myself so can only imagine how scary it would be for someone in a MH crisis
I agree interesting topic. On one side if the person doing the call is not aware that the person is suffering from mental illness she/he will call the police when the person has aggressive or very un-usual behaviour, irrespective of the structure in place. When the officer arrives on site, it is only if he is trained on mental illness issues that he will be able to adapt his behaviour to take into account this factor in the array of external signs the person shows. For this reason, I think that police needs a minimum level of training on mental illness, and this minimum must be sufficient. After all, the role of police is to police in the sense "helping people leave together in respect of each other". On the other side expecting a police officer with motives probably drawn toward muting efficiently signs of aggression in light to the last dozens of call he add in the past few days, it is not the right approach to ask of police officers to go beyond the initial response and control of the situation (which should always be managed via communication first). A tiered model is the right approach. However communication campaigns needs to be done to the larger public on the focus of police forces and their way of handling situations in a civilised way.
I second what you said. My son has experienced his first visible mental illness sign with a very strong and aggressive outburst 3 months ago (but not directed toward anybody). As French living in UK we did not know the structure in place and managed to reach local A&E while neighbours were about to call the police. We convinced them that we had the situation in control and the police did not come.
Now knowing how the UK system is structured I am relatively confident that if police forces had been called on-site they would have tried to manage the situation the right way.
On the other side, knowing now the reasons for my son outburst I fear how he would have reacted (as his psychosis is strongly linked with the very rich controlling population and wanting to take him to be tortured).
He has been in such institution since mid-July as unfortunately so far he has not been able to differentiate key elements between his psychosis and reality so that he can come back with us safely.
The staff there seems to be very well trained and is extremely kind and attentive to him. I just wish we can identify a medication which can help him not be a threat to himself and others around him.
@@alexdubois6585 - I wish you luck with your son and truly hope they can help him. Unfortunately they did not help my daughter who died in their care in May of this year a week after her 20th birthday. She had autism and schizophrenia and what shocked me was the lack of understanding of autism by the medical professionals. They had no clue or understanding which lead to her being overly medicated and restrained excessively when she was having meltdowns or panic attacks. They just thought she was attention seeking.
I am traumatised by it all and will continue fighting to get better ASD training in psychiatric hospitals for all staff so others do not suffer from their ignorance and lack of understanding. In our trust, there was "one" ASD trained nurse for two psychiatric hospitals. That is utterly ridiculous and she never ever even met my daughter and yet she sat in all the professional meetings advising staff on how to handle her without ever speaking to me or my daughter. It is a joke.
@@jmk1962 I am so sorry to read that. I understand your hanger. Know that your warning are helpful.
I haven’t watch the video yet. But my first thought was I think it depends on the situation. I was extremely depressed and call the suicide hotline. Call Pat disconnected and all of a sudden the police are at my house banging, being very very antagonistic towards me. They were yelling at me saying why didn’t you hear us say we were about a police in rolling their eyes at me. I said because I’m hearing impaired they are nasty with me and then they were like go have a great night. Do people think I’m going to reach out for help again?
Only if needed. Licensed professionals in psychiatry in some form should arrive first. Police should not make first contact. It can disturb some average people. If the police enter the scene, along with psychiatric people, they should stand back waiting so the person in crisis does not even though they are there. The police need to make themselves known only if the person becomes dangerous to themselves or others. Like all people, their presence must be calm, professional, and always with the other person in mind.
It can get screened before hand so that law enforcement is not needed at all, unless there's something at the scene that was unreported, in which case law enforcement can be called at that point.
Good luck with professionalism in a group that has trouble defining the word. You're talking about the police that by the definition of their name police force uses force to conduct themselves. Not much room for professional behavior here.
I went through this recently, had three cops agitate me..lie to me falsely accuse me of irratic driving when it was a call I had place the week prior from a Transport weaving all over the highway. I believe they were deliberately trying to agitate me to make an arrest..I was in psychosis and just wanting to sleep in my car as I believed it was be safer for my family.
When police are called out to mental health crises, it seems they are hoping to make an arrest. My landlord once called the police to make a wellness check on me because I wouldn't answer the door. The police turned up ten hours later, and asked questions such as, was I drunk, was I going to hurt anyone, had I taken illegal drugs? They also asked if I'd considered harming myself-which I had-albeit much earlier in the day. By the time I talked to them I felt a bit better. If I hadn't improved throughout the day, by the time the police arrived, it would have been far too late.
In the State of Missouri, we have a crisis intervention team (CIT) initiative. I'm a master's level social worker and work with law enforcement agencies in two Missouri counties. I often follow up with folks who have had interaction with police, due to behavioral health issues, and we also provide numerous trainings for law enforcement to better prepare them for interactions with people in crisis. I also go on calls with law enforcement from time to time. I'm somewhat new to the role, but it does have promising results.
These units specifically have helped me so much when I was living in Nixa and Springfield.
Was a great unit idea.
A crisis assessment person should be available as a first responder: (1) Is there a weapon involved; and what weapon? (2) Upon assessment, a well trained mental health professional w/ability to control and defuse the situation should command and advise actions to be taken by all intervening personnel. ...This is an ever-growing issue.
@@mikemetague7973 typically that's how it works. Triage clinicians assess for immediate danger, and if there is none then the call can be answered without law enforcement. I'm part of a new program and it's already been very successful. Rapport is being reestablished, people are getting the help they need, and most importantly nobody is getting shot.
I feel like police (as well as EMTs and other professionals who come into contact with mentally ill people in crisis) should have to undergo education in regards to mental health as a part of their training. That way, they are better equipped to respond to situations like this.
They do, to varying degrees. EMT classes, police academies, and even Fire Acadmies are requiring trainees to under go basic mental health training during their courses of instruction. Also, these professions have access to mental health professionals on a 24/7 basis.
Much of this was in play even pre-2020, and police officers and police departments were sounding the alarm on mental health even before it became politically-polarized issue that it has become. What did the government (Local, State, Federal) do?? They funded their pet projects (Bike Lanes, Green New Deal, etc) instead of being ahead of this what i call a "tsunami" of mental health issues, and ignored the first responders sounding the alarm. We could've had this infrastructure in place if government gave a damn about its citizens.
Police usually make me deeply uncomfortable. Every time I've interacted with them, it has been my burden to de-escalate the situation. This is difficult under the best of circumstances & has no place in a mental health crisis.
We have crisis response where we live. It’s a Mental Health Pro, an EMT and 2 law enforcement. The 1st time we went this route it was great. Between the MHP and one LEO they were able to convince our son to go to the hospital. This last time it was a nightmare. While we appreciated that LE didn’t come into the house right away, the MHP and LE agreed our son wasn’t “bad” enough despite the fact this episode was far worse than the last. He was physically aggressive, threatening to harm any/all, was actually physically harming our cat and standing in the middle of the street only in pants in 12 degree weather. On top of the clear auditory/visual hallucinations. And despite the MHP at the hospital plainly telling them he would admit him if they’d bring him in. 20 minutes after they left, he stole his mothers car and almost hit her with it in the process. But for some understanding on the part of another LEO he could have gone to jail. We realized the breakdown was there is ZERO consistency and protocol within the system. Needless to say, not only do we feel he doesn’t have a good resource, as a family we don’t either.
We have a team called the crises center here. They came to my house once. I've never been put in handcuffs by force, it must be traumatizing! Being put in handcuffs by police under my agreement to be taken to the hospital was enough! I'll call a cab the next time. I won't ever be a suicide by cop, though I've thought about it I made my decision watching this it's not worth it, I've things to live for.
My doctor sent the police to my house after a miscommunication in “I’m not gonna make it that long” in reference to my financial situation instead of ending my own life. I have had negative interactions with the police, and my negative thoughts incredibly exponentially as soon as they pulled up to my house. I got lucky that I went to school with one of the cops, but the whole way there and back, he tried to tell me how police are really just taxpayer taxis- with complete sincerity. All in all, it would have been a much worse situation if I didn’t know who Was behind the badge. We have a local mental health unit and crisis team.. but they send the cops first. I wish they had a different system where it was just the crisis unit. The cops here a few years back instigated someone’s suicide as they tried to bum rush someone with a gun in their mouth. This was before we had the mental health infrastructure in town.. I’m terrified that it will happen again.
I do like that there are places where the police are trying to educate themselves on interacting with mental health issues in areas that don't have the serves that you mentioned...problem is there just aren't enough people trained to handle all of the needs. I definitely enjoyed this topic...people don't understand what it is like to be in crisis. 🌹
I'm so proud to be part of a mobile crisis team that responds to mental health crises without law enforcement in the vast majority of cases. I also have schizoaffective and work as a peer recovery coach. It makes a world of difference having us interact with people in crisis instead of police.
ps. I want your shirt!
Thank you for your work!!! 🤗
I remember a police officer putting me in handcuffs when I was going through a crisis. I didn't understand why I was being arrested to be taken to a hospital. My nephew the same thing. I do know that they may not understand what we are going through and feel we are dangerous. Thank God we have more mental health experts working with police to respond to these crises.
You know what it is, we don't have explicit rights regarding MI. There should be some rehearsed disclosure of what is being done and why it is being done. Especially with the juveniles that have an MI.
You were not arrested, in the legal sense. You simply handcuffed for the protection of yourself and others on that scene, as well as the safety of the hospital workers.
As someone who was in law enforcement for over 16 year! Specifically corrections. I was heavily trained on mental. Along with any brief training, police are left to make decisions quickly in order to eliminate harm! But most police conflict training of what harm actually means! I can proudly say that in my over 16years of service, I have never had a physical altercation. I know how to talk and listen. People want to be treated like people! And not everyone displays the ability to communicate. I won’t get into the instances of the lack there of! We are well aware that these officers exist! You are absolutely right police, unless relentlessly trained in mental health should not be responding.
Well said and completely agree. We need to create an “Uber” type service specifically for us
Just one where the Uber drivers are better treated! 😅
I have never called 911 in a mental health crisis. I tell my parents, they use child locks on the car, and drive me to an ER. Works well, but I am not stable enough to live on my own. In that case may need to rely on emergency responders.
It was about twenty years ago that I was the healthcare conservator for a college age, female (a good friend of my daughters) who had mental health challenges. There were a few occasions where she was clearly experiencing difficulties and I was immediately called and arrived before the (male) police. In each instance, instead of deescalating the situation, the police amplified the volatility of the situation by aggressively trying to "take charge" of a situation that was loud and distinctly uncomfortable but not dangerous. Their training is for violent or potentially violent situations for which aggressively taking control is often warranted. In the mental health episodes I witnessed, that aggression just made the situation worse by inflaming the mental crisis this strong willed young woman was experiencing. Those were some of the most frightening experiences in my life. On another occasion, two older women who were healthcare workers came to address a similar situation. Their approach was completely different in that they were able to gently engage the person in crisis and, before too long, have her accompany them to the hospital for an involuntary 48-hour hold. As Lauren indicates, the police unfortunately have little or no training in mental health issues. Their jobs can be extremely unpredictable and dangerous to others as well as to themselves. As a result, the tactics used to deal with what is, or might be, a criminal situation are typically counterproductive in dealing with a person having a psychotic episode. Thank you Lauren for another important video!
While I empathize with not calling the police in situations of domestic disturbance without violent intent, such as psychotic behavior without violent intent or excessive noise, I think saying that police shouldn't be called in a "mental health issue" scenario is a bit reductionist.. couldn't the same be said about someone with "genuine violent intent" if their specific neural signature were to be determined as to be causing their impulses, and discount any police intervention in such a scenario in favor of resources allocated for "mental health issues" as well? Where is the boundary?
Would it be appropriate to send an aggressor into an ER or a jail? When does offense warrant a crime rather than a health crisis?
I live In Idaho in the US and we also have a crisis line specifically for mental health and substance use issues. I've used it before and found it helpful. It's run by the state Health and Welfare and they will often refer people to community resources and can transport someone to a hospital or inpatient facility if they determine that's necessary or appropriate. The one time I went to inpatient, I rode in a regular car with them to a normal hospital that had a mental health section connected to their emergency services. One of the limitations I see with it though is that it's separate from other emergency dispatches. It's a separate phone number that isn't widely known or advertised. If someone just called 911 because that's what they knew offhand, the emergency dispatch, to my knowledge, isn't well trained or equipped either to respond effectively to mental health issues.
I work for a mobile crisis team and we're currently getting connected to 911, so we'll be responding to those calls too.
I think it’s a good idea to have a separate service for mental health crisis. The police already deal with enough. It would be less intimidating to someone with anxiety also.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I would also add that even if someone experiencing psychosis or other mental health crisis does commit a crime and they are arrested, they should be treated for their mental health condition first, not held in jail or have to navigate the justice system while in crisis. Thank you for making this video.
I for one agree 💯. It's a health condition and the person with MI should be treated as a health crisis. I also believe drug induced crisis situations should be handled as a health issue. Oregon has made drugs free from penality rather something that is health related. Most of these people need empathy and kindness to get them through there tough times. Training in empathy responsiveness is key.
I was part of a mental health crisis team in Australia. It was available 24/7 and could be called directly by someone in crisis or a concerned friend/relative. For the great majority of interventions, the involvement of police would have been a waste of resources and, frankly, a bit ridiculous. One incident of concern I could recall was a wife calling to say her farmer husband (someone known by the service to have mental health problems) was in the middle of a paddock with a gun saying he would shoot anyone who came near. I wanted to call the police to disarm him first but the psychiatrist on duty decided we should visit and check it out. The psychiatrist went to the person in the paddock (very brave) while I stayed on the other side of the fence (not so brave). The psychiatrist was unable to engage the person in treatment then but thought he could be left alone for the time being. 24hrs later the person engaged in appropriate treatment with his usual psychiatric carer.
The system for mental help is no good. One of my daughters just got out of a mental hospital after just 2 weeks it’s ridiculous how they let her go once the insurance runs out. She’s homeless on the street why don’t they make hospital with nice rooms for much longer stays… my heart is broken that I can’t help her. I called the cops they said she’s a adult and they can’t help her find shelter…. Mental institutions need to come back in New York
Would you want to spend the rest of your life imprisoned in an institution because you have an illness? There are alternatives to institutions that allow people to live in the community, such as an ILF or board & care.
the police fueled the fire when i was psychotic they get physical and i freak out they dont know how to handle these cases (most of them)
I will say that there are a lot of cops who don't know how to handle people with mental illness. But I work in a facility with elders who have schizophrenia, and there have been two cops who have always handled the situation very well the rare time we do have to call them. One reason why we've called the cops in the past is because one resident will scream bloody murder and scare the other residents in the building. And honestly, the word "scream" doesn't even convey how loud he is; I've never heard someone scream so loudly in my entire life. He's even physically assaulted staff in the past mutliple times. So when we did call the cops, the one officer handled him very well and talked him down enough where he stayed calm for the rest of the night. Other officers have also talked to them conversationally to make them feel less paranoid, and those officers are the ones we always try to ask for by name. I don't know if they've ever received professional training for mental illness (which they should), but those specific officers have always done their job in the best way possible. I'm not saying every cop is good in handling people with mental illness, but I just wanted to share my positive experience with them.
Such an important discussion. Thank you.
I have a friend that the cops made her go to the hospital in a cop car before giving water to her pets.
Agree, I think police should come in second not first. Growing up in a predominant low income Hispanic community and seeing my mom get handcuffed multiple times we were at the mercy of the police officer’s awareness on mental illness. Some were wonderful in approaching her others not so much. I don’t think police want to respond to these crisis, what I’ve notice in California is that there just isn’t enough mental health workers available for these much needed positions. Hoping for change in the future.
Last year, I asked the King County Mental Health Center to send over social workers to talk with my psychotic roommate to try and get him treatment, I was at my wit’s end on what to do. Unfortunately, when the social workers showed up, there was nothing they could do because he refused to talk with them. I was really disappointed in that, and I don’t know if they just didn’t have the best tactics to engage him or if they really do have their hands tied. My roommate is a lawyer, and the social workers told me they generally have more difficult times when the people they are dealing with are lawyers or cops. But I wish there was easier recourse for family members and loved ones to deal with psychotic people who refuse to cooperate and refuse treatment.
Lauren, thank you so much for talking about this and sharing your experiences related to this topic.. I have had my own experiences and often feel ashamed for it. Sending much love to everyone in the community and anyone struggling.
I completely agree with the idea that police are not well trained in interacting with individuals in a mental health crisis.. by a long shot. I am a clinician with a crisis team. Mental health is just not well funded. It’s getting better but there’s a lot of work needed to be done. I’m proud to say that our crisis team co responds with police when possible. Police need to be better trained, they’re not going anywhere.
I work in a crisis team too. We only use police if there's an immediate threat of violence or a weapon involved. Otherwise we're perfectly capable of handling these situations without law enforcement.
I’ve been forced to call out police for my teen daughter by the poor private mental health care for teens in this city of my country. There’s only been one officer who was embarrassingly useless. Others have been wonderful, even better than ambos. They’ve had good training and are compassionate rather than egocentric.
I am in Glasgow Scotland. I have told my family if my Depression and Anxiety ever gets bad to phone the police. Our police are not routinely armed so have de-escalation methods. I have been in my local mental health unit when the police have brought someone in having a mental breakdown they hand them to psychiatric nurse to be assessed. The US seems to have a shoot first and ask questions later policy. Also the mental seem to be scape goated for mass shootings. On defund the police. Glasgow has 189 gangs some a century old. For years the only way to deal with it was make the police the biggest gang in failed year on year. Then we had a violence reduction team formed. Police, social workers housing and I would say gang members mothers were brought together to work of solutions. Gang leaders and there mothers were brought together and shown the effect of gang violence the cities hospitals were dealing with. Gang leaders were told if they did not attend there gang would be targeted. It worked gang violence is down. It was agreed the way to kill a gang was give prospective members other options also pride in there communities decent housing so a prison cell with 3 meals a day is less attractive options. Conservatives in Glasgow hate it because they are full of macho BS. There will be bumps in the road but our government is playing the long game. Take Care Stay Safe.
I live in Perth Australia. In the last 10 years our police have formed what they call Mental Health Co-response teams, where a psychiatric nurse is placed with a police unit and they are responsible for attending calls or tasks that involve actual or possible mental health issues. The police take a back seat to interactions and are there to support the nurse. I don't have any stats but I am sure that this is a far better solution to having police attend to a person who may be having mental health issues when they have received the bare minimum training.
I am not saying that the above is the best solution, but it is a step in the right direction. I applaud you for talking about this subject. I takes people like your self to speak about the actual effects having non-trained people attend to what is a health issue. Please keep up your videos, I hope some police watch them and learn something. I'm not bagging police, I like them, but we can't expect them to deal with mental illness if they are not trained.
Thank you for always mentioning race in your conversations and advocacy!
Thank you so much, Lauren, for speaking on this issue. I 100% agree, law enforcement needs to take a back seat when responding to mental health crisis unless the responding team or the public is in imminent danger.
Because I despise police and their tyranny to the general public, I will never call 911 on me or my wife in crisis (we both have mental illness). So the fact that many people with mental health issues are affraid of police highlights an important point: more people would probably call 911 and get the care they need if it weren't for interaction with law enforcement.
Thanks again, Lauren, this needs to be said over and over.
Based on what I read on Wikipedia, the program that you mentioned in Oregon only responds to cases of addiction, disorientation, mental health crises, and homelessness when they know the individuals don't pose a danger to others. Also, the proportion of calls to which police would have responded were it not for them was only 5-8% of their calls. This means that mental health cases that show any indications of violence or aggression will not be directed to them in the first place.
Ive had plenty of officers check in on me. They actually helped calm me down quite a bit, and helped me find resources even if it wasnt an emergency (People have called in wellness checks).
This is personally objective, but I support the idea of them coming. I have a track record of self violence or psychotic breaks (got a lot calmer in recent years).
One thing to remember is they have ACE training like in the military and know to remain calm and reach out. Both MPs and Civilian side have helped me greatly.
In my Wisconsin city it's a crap shoot as to police that arrive--maybe good, maybe not. This is the city police. My country's sheriffs department has won awards for their treatment of the mentally ill but unfortunately they don't work within my city.
As a 17 year old when my daughter first become mentally ill and lived at home in a Chicago suburb she "stole" a car one night (likely the keys were left in it). A cop car stopped her because she was driving without the lights on. One cop wanted to take her to the Cook County jail, not a good place, but his partner convinced him that she needed to go to the hospital and so that's where they took her. Later that year she happened to see that cop who spoke out for her and she thanked him for what he did. But overall her experiences with the police being mentally ill have not been good.
The 2x I was in crisis, I felt safer with the police, than the people around me. I guess it depends on the interactions you've had pre-crisis. The NJSP, IDK if they are crisis trained, but where I live they know most of us and talk to us.
Police can come if they have degrees in social work. Very very good topic.
One of the most heart breaking things I have ever witnessed was my 16 year old son who suffers from CPTSD and bipolar plead with police not to tase him during in a mental health call out. A child. Police have no business handling mental health crisis.
Stop being soft. Handcuffs and a Taser are excellent ways of asserting boundaries and showing the mentally unstable what are the consequences of them stepping on your toes. The best boundary is one which is brutally asserted.
My son was in crisis, and the police were called by the behavioral health team for transport to the hospital. He was tazzed in the head and chest and beat with a their club.
There is a missing link in our system. And it's dangerous.
Sooo important to talk about. Wonderful post, thank you again!
I think that a team of people trained to help with emotional/mental/ behavioral issues available to respond would be soooooo helpful. Duh! Unfortunately this is not available, leaving us forced to rely on mental health officers (police). “Help” is scarcely avail. enough when it’s asked for, and is often only available involuntarily, or when someone is no longer volunteering that they need help. Also, it seems important for a care team of responders to be able to make a “legal” report of the incident, much like when police respond. This way, there is evidence from the report to use if someone does need “forced” help of some sort. For example if a family member needs to obtain power of attorney, during a period when a loved one is non responsive and unable to care for their responsibilities. Also, the insurance companies neeeeed to stop being able to dictate what health care providers are able to to provide. No more “treat & street” help. More people would volunteer for help if they actually got real help when they asked. In general, the police need a ton more training to be more emotionally aware of the community they are suppose to be serving, instead of punishing and disciplining. Police are often bullies, so are prison guards, in part, because they are primarily trained to be punitive or punishing. I love how you have established a care team for yourself. If only it were easier to get a person experiencing a paranoid psychotic episode to recognize it, and thus be more able to build themselves a care team. This would probably happen more , the paranoia might lessen, if our care team responders were properly trained, non gas lighting, non abusive workers! Uniting one day at a time, in support, and compassion for one another sounds better to me.
Sometimes, the medications don’t work! So Lauren, I’d also love for you to go into more depth in talking about treatment alternatives, nootropics, self medicating, genetic electromagnetic therapies, wabi mri testing, mdmr therapy, micro dosing, a self chosen care team and who that should include, from a shaman, to a psychiatrist, therapist, etc. and the pros and cons of each, what is legally available in the US, and again, about “health”. What are the healthiest cultures around the world, and why?
More education to the police on mental illness
I know this video is old, but as a mental health officer (my only job, not patrol), I would disagree. Responding to a person in crisis can be dangerous. This is because people suffering from substance abuse disorders have symptoms that mimic severe mental illnesses. Those people are typically more prone to violence. I could go on and on about this. Also, the number of people I have helped is very rewarding. Emergency Detentions in Texas can only be done by Peace Officers. This way there is no conflict of intrest in the Healthcare system. We have resources to call to include mobile crisis counseling, community paramedics, and psychiatrist. I do have some issues with our mental health system but overall we work hard with a number of agencies/ programs to get a person help. Our police have 40 hour training for mental health and are continously learning from me as I respond to their scenes.
I am from Australia and work in a suicide prevention role that sometimes needs to organize for interventions to be undertaken. I have also worked in hospitals. I am not sure what it is like in other countries but here in Australia paramedics are assaulted daily by all types of patients including ones in mental health crisis, which is not a thing any person in their role should have to endure especially when they are just trying to help people. Police here are required to undertake mental health crisis training and they are the first people to attend when an intervention for risks of imminent suicide are done as unfortunately many people in these situations talk about having a knife or gun or so on to take their life and a lot of people also say that if the police attend someone will die. Being put at that risk in not a paramedics job and I fully understand that having the police attend is traumatic, I hear about how bad it can be directly from people who have had this happen. But at the same time everyone deserves a safe work place and so the right protective steps need to be taken to protect our health care workers.
As a person who worked in a hospital I left that role as I generally was assaulted around 3 times a week by patients who were at risk for many different reasons (majority were not mental health) and many of the patients didn't even remember what happened. The final straw was when I was assaulted so badly that I had to get an operation on my knee.
I am writing this before watching your video and may edit this once watching it, and I will admit I have Bipolar type 2 and PTSD myself and am experienced at both sides of the picture. I just hope you can all look at both sides of the picture and not just the person in crisis at that time. Vicarious trauma rates and assault on health care workers is way to high and they don't deserve that.
I also agree dramatic improvements need to occur in mental health support, the resources available are extremely insufficient and most changes implemented are done entirely without consultation with the people the changes are made for.
The difficulty, at least in the US, is that a separate unit from the police would cost taxpayer money for training and upkeep. I would personally support this, especially as someone who has had interactions with police who were clearly untrained in the sort of situation to which they were responding, but convincing your average taxpayer to support such a thing would be quite the uphill battle.
I cut my wrist after having a terrible panic attack during a depressive episode and I called 911 for help. I was bleeding out of my wrist very badly and for a brief moment of clarity I realized I didn’t want to die but needed help fast. A police officer arrived first and perceiving me as a threat handcuffed me (while my wrist was bleeding out). I felt like a criminal. He kept me handcuffed until the paramedics arrived.
Wow that's awful. And that's their idea of "helping."
I can only say yes when there are times that somebody is having a mental health crisis where they may harm themselves or others police could be involved in resolving that situation. I used to work at a psych hospital and I was shocked that on a daily basis when a patient didn’t return to hospital after section 17 leave the police were informed and acted upon that immediately to bring the patient back to hospital. This is U.K. law btw.
I have dealt with police when in crisis. Some can handle it, some can't. Some are very understanding and some aren't. I think if the place you are in has a trained crisis team then cool, but if not and no one on the force has actual training, then send out a social worker or something with them. However, you can't send a social worker out alone.
In the US, the police respond to everything first and I dont see the gov. Changing that anytime soon. I think the best thing a person who has mental health issues and is afraid that the police won't understand is to get a medical bracelet and put your diagnosis and your doctors name and number on it. As far as you can be cooperative and docile. Here in the US if you play along, the police will give you the choice of taking the ambulance, as a medical emergency or them having to take you, which requires reports, possibly a court date and it will be on your record, if a background check is done.
I work for the court and if the police are involved to the point where you have to be cuffed and dragged to the psychward or the psychward in jail, then the court becomes involved. Alot of times that is how people get the services they need, the court. We have community services, but there are those who won't take advantage of them.
Seeing it from both sides of the story, being the one in crisis and the one who works with those helping to get people treatment, I can tell you, if they send a social worker out, the police will be the first on the scene and have to clear the scene. Then the social worker can come in.
There are too many drug attics, now, who present as having mental health problems and when someone tries to interact with them, they become agitated and dangerous. It is seen as too great a risk.
Right now there is this whole thing of dual diagnosis, which is understandable, but the focus has switched off of the person with just the mh issue, to the drug addict that has both issues. An unfortunately, we (just mh) get caught up in the mess and treated like incoherent druggies. I've had this experience personally. I speak up for those of us who are just mh reminding people that we are nonviolent and not taking any unprescribed drugs, but it falls on deaf ears... until the test comes back.
I work on a mobile crisis response team. Our teams consist of a licensed clinician, a case manager, and a peer recovery coach. We respond to all calls unless there is an immediate threat or a known weapon. The idea that we're incapable of deescalating people in crisis without police is absurd. I also have schizoaffective and have been handcuffed 3 times by police when I was in crisis. I had not been doing anything threatening at all and it definitely worsened my symptoms. I'm so glad this program is in place now so others don't have to experience what I did (and worse).
i seen instances where police arrest the sufferer for resisting
The police listened to me more than the hospital
it should be an ambulance not the police. i called the crisis hotline and theytalk me into going to the hospital and they call 911 and police put handcuffs on me and assume i broke the law. every drug admission in the hospital is voluntary. police will never take a drug addiction to the mental clinic. they will always arrest them. even if the person wanted to go to the hospital. they will get arrested with no care but abstinence to recover from drug addictions. the hospital will prescribe drugs and help the homeless get into sober living through counseling. police will arrest them, force them to sober from no medication unless it was already prescribed and they will never give a schedule medication. they will make the person sit in jail and take them to court for drug use for further prison sentences. and if they cannot arrest a drug addict they will leave them on the street. drug addiction starts by self admitting in a psychiatric hospital or ward. from there you can go into sober living. they have therapy and everything.
Every time I asked my clinic fo help They got the police to discourage my request about 50 times.
Wow 😳 what a vastly informative commentary on this one. Please don't be afraid to speak here. People are here to better love, learn, and live.
I love your videos!! Definitely, the police should not be involved in rescuing people in any kind of mental health crisis. A qualified team must be called upon to provide humanized and adequate care for this already fragile person who only needs HELP AND SUPPORT.
Excellent video, Lauren. Thank you so much for making this.
In my country, when someone is in mental crisis we mental health workers go. We even have a special ambulance for people that are hospitalized (against their will). But we do call our 911 when people in crisis become an immediate threat to themselves and/or others. I do think our police is different than the usa though, not every cop carries a gun here and police does try to learn how to de-escalate in mental crisis cases. It’s still far from perfect though and we have much to learn.
Sometimes. My mom responded to a call with someone with mental problems who was building his own guns and bombs. She was pretty grateful that the police were there as well. But of course, the police shouldn't be the only one responding. And the cops should have specially trained cops to respond to these crises.
They responded to my daughter during one of her explosive attacks. They treated her like she did something wrong and fined her. I do believe officers are receiving additional mental health training now though.
Very interesting topic extremely well presented. One of the best you have done. Thank you!
You presented the case very well and won me over to change my mind.
Ive never been violant or aggressive to anyone no criminal record! I'm shocked in the last 36 years things have got much wore in mental health care
I agree with all this. I don't think police should be involved in health crisis situations, mental or physical. I only have one experience with police and mental health. But it was the campus police at my school and they were trained quite well I think. When I worked for the university I got the same training they did and it was very helpful. The campus police just made sure I was stable and helped me get to the ambulance without falling. But it was really terrifying to see them!! I was so scared that they would hurt me. I don't have a lot of faith in police and I've heard so many awful stories of people who were fall less lucky than me.
I have had nothing but traumatising experiences dealing with mental health crises. They treat you like a criminal. Psych wards are also no better.
I called the police for a domestic abuse situation going on. It was mental and verbal abuse going on that has been going on since I was a kid. I’m disabled. So, it’s a lot harder for me to get out of the situation. The police were useless. Unless something is physical, they don’t really do anything. Plus, the cop I dealt with was horrible. He made it sound like I called for no reason and that if he had wrecked on the way here, it’d be my fault. He literally said that to me. That’s really good for someone who is already in a toxic living situation. Don’t get me started on Adult Protective Services. What a joke.
What’s confusing about the police thing to me is that in their line of work, usually criminals they deal with anyway have some sort of mental health issue. So, you’d think they’d have a lot more training in that area.
It all depends on the situation. If someone with mental illness are committing a crime and or especially being violent the police should definitely be the first responders. Social/mental health workers don’t want to respond to a person being violent and they’re not equipped to deal with such situations. If someone is simply having a non violent non criminal mental health crisis you send out the appropriate social/mental health care worker.
We used to have a crisis intervention team of trained police but due to budget cuts, not so much anymore. They are moving towards employing social workers to accompany police or instead of police to manage the mental health calls.
Then we should allow lmhc and non license therapists be able to section of needed. Because i have have called mobile crisis and they told me to call the police. It's hard as a therapist to not get the police involved
My Nami group facilitator frequently visits police departments and the jail facilities to talk to the officers about how to better handle a mental health crisis. I'm not sure it's doing enough though to counteract The authoritarian training they received to deal with actual violent criminals.
Because of trauma in mental health crisis I will never search help again. I would rather die than meeting police in crisis again.
When police are trained to deescalate situations, then they can respond to mental health calls.
Police laughed at me in hospital after I was assaulted in Bridgend hospital. Two female nurse cpn told me to throw my 16 year old son on the street?!
The amount of times I’ve been smacked around by the hospital security and other security forces makes me think probably not.
I two have had bad run ins with police. I have charged due to over zealous policemen.
Unless there is a threat,
Police should not be responding to mental health crises.
No, but only because they will not have the appropriate training
I hope this really gains steam! Its such an important, relevant and ignored issue.
Thanks for covering this topic. I agree with everything you talked about. Great video. No, police should not be responding to mental health crises.
I live in Dickson, TN and I had my first psychosis spell in 2016. I had to be admitted to our local hospital and then sent via police officer to a mental hospital in Nashville. I was not handcuffed though.
I love this channel more and more every day 💜
Police should only be there if there is imminent danger to the person in distress or the ones around him/her. Otherwise it's best not to involve them.
This was a great topic. It needs to be discussed throughout society.
Love your videos! I have Major Depressive Disorder. I have genuinly never had a interaction because of an episode but i have been a victim of being labeled and had police called because i can be vunrable when in an episode and not wanting to do something someone else wants me to do. People in domestic situations knowing ..and trying to use it against me.
No. Police are law enforcement and should have No jurisdiction over an individual's mental health. Mental health is health.
I was really worried about my son’s mental health (he has decided he has no use for psychiatrists or medication) and at the end of my rope. I called the Mental Health Crisis Line here in Edmonton and was shocked to learn that the police showed up at my son’s apartment! That was not only unhelpful but could have turned out very badly since he absolutely hates police and has what I consider irrational beliefs about them. I expected that a mental health team would have handled the call. I will not be so naive next time.
Long story short. One mentioned of cops being involved from my situation in the past. "Open-minded community job centres" just goes:
"Hahaha, bye 👋 ."
I would love to know if a community of people with schizophrenia have tried communicating with the police community. (If such a thing is even possible or have already been done.)
If I could tell a cop one thing about a MH crises.
"We might think we are Neo... once the movie hits theaters."
They might take this seriously or not but I know delusions can have inspirations from media.
And if they find that unsatisfactory
I can always tell them.
"Haha, bye 👋"
Point is maybe we could give them an idea of what to expect.
I'm traumatized by getting arrested by the police to I'm ADHD I don't trust the police never have and never will they dont have my respect at all isolate myself in the house I don't go out
Absolutely No a million times over. I have first hand experience and absolutely nothing good has come of any part of our police service. It only made things in not only my life but our whole family’s life worse in more ways then one.