yes, by means of designing the game in such a way that mmr is irrelevant - bc it only takes ONE bad teammate to lose the whole match and know what comes next? by losing the match you get your mmr decreased, meaning the next time your teammate will be even weaker - effectively meaning their mmr design does the OPPOSITE of what it should
@@ruslansmirnov9006 What hurts even more is realizing right off the bat that one or two of your teammates are going to play selfishly and just having to accept a loss in advance, it makes the game so boring.
The note about 2-3 gens popping during first chase is such an important aspect of the game that catches a ton of newer players off guard the first time they encounter it, since if you're not used to playing at presumably higher MMRs, it could feel like you've already lost the game. I wish I could see my own MMR since I enjoy looking at my own play from an analytical standpoint and it'd be cool to see if I was actually in MMR hell or just playing trash lmao. :)
@Cassiao Same! Even as survivor, it would be nice to know not only my MMR but also that of my teammates, so that way I know if I'm being matched fairly or if my team is just having bad luck against the killer, or the killer is way above my current skill bracket. Same as killer, would love to know if I'm against a lucky team of coordinated Solo's or if the team is a genuinely cracked SWF.
In my experience if 2-3 gens pop in first chase and it was a somewhat fast chase, then you have already lost or at least drawn the match unless you either play a bit "dirty" such getting someone out quick, or the survivors screw up by being ultra altruistic. Survivor altruism wins a lot of killer games, a lot more than most people think.
Imo kills shouldn't be the sole factor determining mmr. Hook stages should be a higher priority. Making kills the win factor helps encourage tunneling and some other "toxic" behavior. It also lets people like me abuse the system. I can still get 8-10 hooks at 4 gens and then decide to let 2+ people live so my mmr doesn't increase or even drops.
I wish MMR would be visible, just so all those smug people online with Dunning Kruger's would get a reality check. I am not claiming to be a pro player, it's just aren't people tired of hearing obvious bullshit like "I run no gen slowdown and I consistently get easy 4k's with 2-3 gens left"? They genuinely believe that they're some top tier players because there's a red "rank 1" on their profile and that they know better than people who played since beta.
where are those people believing red ranks matter? can you point a finger? and, playing since beta doesn't immediately make you a knower. learning, experimenting and analyzing does. you can easily be delulu for a long time since beta
@@semplar2007 I didn't say I played since beta, I was specifically thinking about Tru3Ta1ent. Every time he talks about balance you will have at least one obviously newer player thinking he knows better than everyone else. It is usually followed by them for example mentioning how easily they get 4k's without gen defense to back up how experienced they are, not knowing how ridiculous they sound. Mentions of ranks are rare, but you still see people do so every now and then talk about them as if they matter. Not necessarily out of malice, the whole system is just confusing.
@@anonymoususer-y7h because they either: play on lower mmr, or different servers (for example, us servers tend to have less sweaty players), or they are actually good at the game, or they just came to troll tru3talent. who knows. talking makes no differences, demonstration does. yes the game is survivor-sided, there is a reason why people in competitive put heavy restrictions on survivor builds and items. regarding tru3talent, i don't support all the hate towards him, but i highly disagree regarding his stand on tunnelling and gen slowdown. his problem is he claims HIGH MMR COOL KILLER PLAYS NO SMURFS ONLY REAL PLAYS in his titles, and then complains about oh-so-hard-life of the killer main. then don't be sweaty. when you're playing sweaty, you're getting sweaty opponents as a result, and now you need to be much more precise with your killer powers and game sense. he has signed for it himself
@@semplar2007 Yes, that is Dunning Kruger's and they are not trolling. Also I am not interested in discussing him. I avoided naming him for this very reason.
I'd be more likely to listen to someone who could actually prove it versus those "acktually i play both sides and i think FTP shouldn't break the user" types.
Hey, that streamer at the beginning was mad annoying (Thank you for your continued work with showing us how MMR and hacking works in DBD. Maybe it'd be cool to put all the MMR explanation videos in a playlist so we can send them to people who aren't sure how MMR works?)
This pretty much confirms a lot of opinions I had already. The problem isn't the idea of SBMM itself, it's how BHVR has implemented it. Ideally, people should not be sorted into "brackets", it should be a smooth gradient, a bell curve where the majority of people are in the middle MMR range. The main problem in my opinion is threefold; one, solo and SWF share a queue, their MMR points are considered equal despite one being much easier. Two, the cap is not only low, but completely arbitrary. And three, MMR points for both sides are rewarded for gameplay that many do not consider skillful. It's not uncommon for the least skilled survivor who hid all game to get out, while the ones who worked their ass off get tunneled out early and are considered losers.
So few of us remember those times! I could always tell the purples from the reds just based on usernames alone! I just loved farming BBQ stacks in green ranks and letting everyone go. Such great times! But I also remember WHY the ranks were hidden. It needed to happen.
Your point about time and region has the most impact on me personally. I don't think MMR affects me since I mostly play off peak hours NA solo queue. One game my team will get destroyed because my teammates don't even know how to look behind them, the next game I'll literally get Vulpixia's nurse, then right after I'll get a baby killer finishes the game with 2 hook states. I feel like I already play without SBMM. At this point I should start tracking and giving this 'experiment' a try.
Impressive insight on MMR as always. One question though: Does BHVR ever perform sneaky MMR reset or shifts nowadays? Monthly grades are pretty much placebo but few people are still claiming their anecdotal experiences on "monthly reset brings different games".
In my experience, the games get progressively more sweaty, probably because people want that Iri 1 rank as soon as possible. I just play and slowly get my grades.
The ranks still play into the matchmaking. When I didnt play DBD for a week or two and then am "late" to getting to Iri, I get significantly worse opponents. If no gens pop before your first down, unless youre playing an S-tier killer, that means your opponents are not great. It is that simple.
@@Flotter-FloMaybe that’s correct or BHVR has kind of an Engagement Optimization Matchmaking (EOMM) where the game tries to keep you playing so if you took a break game wants your matches to be wins. I had the same experience when I came back, first 5-10 matches were extremely unfairly matched in terms of mmr.
pretty sure they brought it back 2 or 3 months ago i never felt this way now suddenly the first matches when i come back to the game feel like im against bots could be mmr deteriorating on "vacation" alternatively lmao
Great video. I agree with every point you made. You mentioned something about killer being able to see if players are in a swf. As a solo q survivor, I just want to say, please don't do that to us. After the match, sure, but not before.
According to this, I'm clearly in Gold Tier. Killer main for two years with 1800 hours. I HATE having to play against full SWF tryhards every single game! I do still get kills, but it's stressful. It's super rare that I ever get casual games as killer. The game feels completely survivor sided and I gotta play incredibly smart and hard to win...which I don't necessarily want to. When I play with my friends in customs, who I SWF with, I absolutely dominate them without even trying. I just want more casual games. These sweaty games all the time isn't fun.
I feel like the easy solution is to just add an unranked mode where MMR doesnt apply. Its not a perfect solution, but its better than nothing. Its very rare to have any game where there is casual play in PvP, unless that game has a system where servers can be community moderated either by straight up offering community servers to players or having a vote to kick option which i feel neither is viable for DBD. Players will always try to optimize the fun out of a game, and coming across it randomly instead of predictably with an MMR system doesn't feel any better to me. You cant force people to play casually just because you want to have an easier time winning, and if you dont have fun sweating your balls off to win then games with MMR based PvP just arent for you..and i dont mean that in a mean way, just if you dont have fun with the way the game is played then why play it at all?
@tmoney1487 I meant casually play as I want to be able to goof around and have personality. I don't like having to tunnel and slug to get the win. I played my friends in customs the other day and I had all 4 on death hook with one gen left. That is fair, imo. That is a balanced game. It wasn't three gens popped when I had one hook like I see in live matches.
I feel this but unfortunately once you start going against optimal SWFs there’s no turning back and you either play your strong killers that have a chance against them or try to learn a killer and get tbagged at the exit gate because they outplayed you with Prerunning and Spreading out to do the gens
@themarketgardener I'm an Onryo main. I do beat them, but it's always a challenge. Sometimes they do escape. I just love it when I can have casual games and not be so serious.
I cant confirm the "not giving up in lower brackets." ive ended up playing on my low mmr account, first it was out of accident but then i finally got to see way more variety in the killers im going against. Nedless to say as a killer its way easyer. Im playing quite some time on this account now and recently there is always someone rage quitting on first down even when im not the killer.
As a survivor who plays majority soloq who is stuck in that silver tier, it is absolute fucking hell man. New survivors, 4 minute chases with literally no gen progress, generally terrible decision making.. yeah team games really suck when thats where you are at.. But then every once in a blue moon you get a good team or even just a good teammate and they tank that important hit that makes a 3 out a 4 out or etcetc and you literally want to fucking marry them because its been so long since a random has had the idea to do that for you.
I think the biggest reason why BHVR isnt showing the MMR values are kinda simple: DBD Players suck. People already are always on the lookout to blame failures onto others. If no gen pops during a 3 second chase, it wasnt the guy who went down in 3 seconds, it was the fault of the others. You can even now see what the others are up to, yet still nobody thinks about the "how". For example why didnt all 3 others got to a gen in 3 seconds? Maybe it was a player with deja vu who wanted to avoid a 3-gen scenario at the end, so they went to a better generator to benefit from the perk. Maybe someone dropped a cup of tea on the floor, maybe they did a totem for a tome, etc. There are like a billion reasons why people do or dont do what others think they should be doing. So if you enable visible MMR the moment the guy with the 3 second chase sees that he is like 5 points higher, he claims that everything he says is correct, even though the others were doing fine, just had their own goals in mind. I see a lot of streamers making like the dumbest claims ever and keep yelling about that nobody does anything and that they do the most work, even though you can literally see that it is not true. Sure, you can manage to complete all 5 gens, but how many of those did they did 100%? maybe 1 of them at the start while all 3 of their partners were in chases. For the others, they just completed the last 10% maximum. Also we already have seen how people react to a visible "mmr", when ranks still had "some" value to it (it never was a good gauge to see how good someone is, but it influenced matchmaking). So to just shut those people up, those values were made invisible. And ofc people want it to be visible, because they want to brag and shove their failures onto others that are "less skilled", even though i am pretty sure 99% of people would be in shock at first since they are not as high in MMR as they thought.
Absolutely agree. Making MMR visible would be a sure-fire way to make the game even sweatier. It would basically be like a league table. People, who complain about uber-sweat now, would have a rude awakening if MMR would become visible. 100%!
poor mister headache lmao love his comedic attitude to dbd (which i personally think we should all have) i do agree with choys anger to sbmm at the same time however haha xD RAWRR
No it wouldn't lol it would reveal that a lot of content creators are in lower brackets than they think. For example, there is NO WAY Otz's survivor mmr is in gold bracket
I would like it I have a high winrate against swf's every game so it would be interesting for my chat to see. it would also avoid brainrot comments and give people more of a understanding on harder games.
I disagree, I used to play LoL all the time, and they have a normal and ranked mode like you are talking about, and in every game without fail there are multiple people who queue up for the normal (supposed to be casual) game mode, but still play as if its a ranked match with their livelihood on the line.
I saw most of the experiment live and I agree completely. We know this will not be visible in the future but it (hopefully) provides perspective. What is possible is showing who ready together, this would help the health of the game imo.
The reason why people say mmr doesn't exist is because its not really hard at all to hit that 1400 soft cap. Ive always seen mmr as a way to just separate brand new players from more experienced players. That is why I roll my eyes whenever someone uses "High mmr" as some sort of qualifier so their point is somehow more valid. I can say for pretty much certain that most people don't want an accurate mmr system, Id rather my queue times not take 20-30mins. As far as should they show mmr? I honestly don't know. A part of me wants to show people that it doesn't matter to a lot of people, but another part of me doesn't want to give the "As a high mmr player" crowd more fuel for their stupid takes.
At this point is really hard to balance across all mmr, but i think they should consider to add the game help they are adding in 2v8, so if generator takes to long increase speed and if generators is to fast reduce speed, if this thing really works in 2v8 they should add in the main game, that way even if a very different skill players get paired they at least have a chance and don't spend more time in queue then in game
Visual MMR would be great, but they will never do it for all the reasons you listed. If you think about it from a developer standpoint, it would be stupid for them to do it. Also, silver ranks would become far more sweaty, ironically from people intentionally not ranking up to keep their own matches "chill". Personally, I would love it. I know any time I have a good run and hit that gold mark though. It's obvious because I get destroyed for like 10 matches in a row suddenly, after having a legitimate win streak. 😂😢
we could know which creators are smurfing too lol. it would be great, but yeah they will never do it. personally, i would love to see basically 75% of the playerbase who says "oh yeah i'm something like low gold, you know, high mmr but not the best of the best haha NOW AGREE WITH MY BALANCE CHANGES", realize they are mid at best.
We appreciate a lot your job on this subject Choy, and as a community we need to protect ourselves of scummy developer tactics that behavior constantly try on us, they gaslighted the hell out of us for years about this subject and now because of your information request video things could change for the better. Thank you a lot!
I recently got so annoyed at losing nearly every game in row against sweaty toxic swifts when I played really well, run the right perks and tried my best every game, that I finally decided it's time to tank my MMR. I went friendly and got zero kills for around 10 to 15 games which means my mmr dropped by around 200 - 300, and what a surprise I had, finally, fun as killer again. I never thought I'd see the day, I played against good players who put up a challenge but weren't extremely sweaty, comp players with no lives. I had very few dc's or giving up as well. If you're in the same boat, I highly recommend tanking your MMR, just lose games for over an hour or so, watch tv just vibe, then play seriously. I hate to actually do this, but if you want to play killer more casually at high mmr, it's impossible. You either need to sweat your dick off or hope to god there the type that don't do gens, but if they are they will just be toxic and annoying so you lose either way.
Tru, tru. Games vs. swf is fully unbalanced devastating experience with absolutely zero fun. Tryharders with 99689976986798958965868 hours should be stewing in their own cauldron and not ruining the game with semi-casual. So, tanking mmr is very good idea for ordinary player.
Limit modes I heard are supposed to use main MMR but not change it after the fact but it seems like the skill bracket is extremely loose for them. It's the only time where matches feel mostly random instead of a sweat fest every game
This is a great video! I agree visible mmr would be good to have , even if it's optional. Does each killer have separate mmr ? I've always wondered as a killer main for some time now
@@Rambone1978 no, the opposite actually. Tru3 claims that major content creators that post videos of them juicing killers are on Smurf accounts. However, the mmr doesn’t work quite like he thinks it does. So, this should prove to him that even tho mmr is in place and it works, it doesn’t work the way he thinks it does or should, and should stop throwing baseless accusations out about smurfing
@@PettyPerkins i'm pretty sure he is aware about the differences within a single bracket. you still have to be doing something fishy to consistently get so many outright babies and not just low gold players in your matches. Edit: well here you, right from this comment section "So I have a acc where I only escape through hatch and I think it goes to a middle ground cause it basically means I have never escaped through the gate so if I play alone. It’s basically either really bad to mediocre killers. If I play with a friend who’s really really good I’ll get either a mediocre to good to amazing killer. So I guess I kinda bypassed the mmr. If I want chill games I play solo if I want your typical to sweaty games I play with friends but I always escape from hatch. 🤷🏼♂ and idc if people think it’s scummy I’d rather prioritize my mental health and never have stress. Then escape normal for killer if I get a 4k I usually have to get a 1k for a few games after" People are aware of these things and actively manipulate them. and the effect is very tangible even if not infalible.
@@PettyPerkinsI don't understand your point. True clearly plays against higher-tier survivors most of the time, unlike other streamers like Otz for example, who barely or rarely. And yeah, Survivor main content creators are manipulating their MMR with advanced cheats or tricks. Obviously, I have no proof of this, but I have 2 Epic Games accounts and 2 Steam accounts, and I've been playing Dead by Daylight since 2018. From my experience, their content is BS and fake. Clearly, they need highlights-highlights are content, content is money, and money is life. Without highlights, you have basic or no content, so you have no money. It's a very simple concept, but today's people seem to lack common sense. Those RUclipsrs face low to low-mid, at most mid-level killers/survivors 80-90% of the time, mostly default skins and poor pathing. True knows what MMR-System is. And obviously, if higher-tier survivors aren’t available, you’ll get weaker teams. And since MMR is still invisible, this video isn’t 100% proof, but even it is, these not against True, this is with True.
as someone who really struggles to keep up with what mmr, sbmm, etc is all about, this video was incredibly informative, and well explained enough for me to follow! great vid :)
I wish I could see my mmr because no matter how hard I try to increase I just keep getting baby survivors and with 1k+ hours it just doesnt feel fair.. I do like to do some friendly killer rounds or let some survivors escape but even when I win 50 matches in a row it feels like my mmr doesn't change at all and its so frustrating.. if I could see my mmr I could at least avoid decreasing it too much and avoid stomping players that literally just installed the game
Yeah, but only to an extent. They sytem rubberbands. So even if you play a killer for the first time, the MMR will be capped from being too much lower than whatever your highest performing killer is.
I don't know how accurate it is. Last year i had a win streak of 40 with ghost face and 60 with myers after i lost motivation. I had not the feeling that survivors got that much better. Of course i had to tunnel frequently to win games and used the best perks available.
Is there even enough players for sbmm to matter? Because a game like call of duty has millions of players, which guarantees that every match you will be playing against players with similar skill level. But with DBD it's very different, not only is the population smaller, but also the MMR is 1 vs 4. It is not balanced. Maybe because I play at 3am, but I go on winning streaks of like 10 matches, 4k and a gen or more left, but I keep getting matched with very bad players. And only occasionally the survivors who will actually give me a challenge.
youre right sbmm in dbd has a wide leeway because otherwise people would get matched against the same too often with too long queue times it does still matter tho trash matchmaking is not the same as no matchmaking
Some of the biggest DBD creators like Otz & Scott Jund seem to have pretty chill killer games most of the time, and still win almost all their games. Why do you think that is? Are they really that good that they make tournament-level players look amateurish? Or is there some quirk with the system that matches them with lower MMR survivors?
The matchmaking is trash is the simple answer. If it can't find people of equal skill then it will just go down the ladder till it finds them. This is also a reason why people go into the whole "mmr doesn't exist" argument. You have a few matches like this after a match or two of pure sweat and pain and so you start to second guess everything.
the system is most definitely trash. im a (not great)survivor main, and die most of my matches. and lo and behold, last week it turned out me and my partner were playing against otz lol
The problem with MMR is something I can’t explain but I can tell you that in my games I have 2 completely different sets of survivors. As killer I will see the sweatiest players in a swf destroying me every game but when I go to survivor I can’t sit back and do a gen because the 3 other “teammates” would all be on death hook before I even finished the first gen. So my gameplay became running a 5 gen chase or lose, tunnel 1 person out at the start so I stand a slight chance. I stopped playing the game because it stopped being fun I don’t enjoy running the whole game it’s stressful and then on killer I hate that I will literally never see those people on my team
I can confirm everything he is saying is 100% true, I have been playing on a old account that was last used in 2017 so it is basically a new fresh account and everything he is saying is extremely accurate.
Also one fog whisperer told in their video that if someone dodge the lobby, the game will put anyone in the queue to shorten the wait for the match. So this is literally the easiest way to prove that this system doesn't work.
I feel a visible MMR would just add to the "ego" some players have. As you mentioned in the video, people with a higher MMR would be listened to or believed more from the community at large. But I also feel there would be the antagonistic view of "your MMR is lower, so you don't know what you're talking about". People would use it simply for the belittlement of others and their opinions.
It would have been great if your hacker friends confirmed your MMR estimates every now and then, to make sure you correctly identified your MMR bracket.
SO, how does survivor MMR work? Do you always lose -20 if you die, regardless of how many people got out? Do you always gain +20 if you escape, regardless of how many died? Is the number of survivors alive even a factor? About the only thing I know is that hatch escapes count as +0 Is it like Escaped, but everyone else is dead results in 0 Escaped, two man out +5 Escaped, three-man out +10 Escaped, four-man out +20 How's it work for dead survivors?
First of all, Great video! Really enjoyed a deeper look into the system! About this part: 11:30 "People naturally would listen to Those with the highest MMR, because they have the most credibility when it comes to balance. Bhvr does not want the "sweatiest" people in the community to have the louder voice than anyone else..." God, as someone who played, a lot of online pvp games, this is the cringest concept ever.. The developer, not wanting the good players to be listened too, because then everyone would realize how fucked the balance in this game is. As I said, I played a lot of online games before, but only in DBD it seems to be bad thing, to be a good player. ( "sweaty", "tryhard" etc.) Either grow up, stop playing, get good or stop taking shit so seriously. Some people just wanna play the game.
Nah, i think from a dev perspective its to stop players from manipulating the system. To do with your point of them not wanting high mmr players to have a big narrative, its more likely because they disagree with the narrative. Bare in mind, the devs made an indie game that was tailored towards party games but because its online its not always plausable. This issue with public and constant competitiveness is a known problem for behaviour and its understandable how they merely desire to never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever let the masses of top notch (inherently competitive and excellent players) be able to actively leak themselves into the lower ranks. Hiding sbm is a very common thing and its not because game studios are the shadow government hellbent on spreading misinformation. Its because sweaty players amist the public community would cum absolutely everywhere if they were able to specifically manipulate their mmr to bully the common folk (outskill newish players). This also explains the diminish in point reduction towards the lowest end of top mmr, would you rather consistently get some sweaty players seeping through the cracks just because they had a few bad games. Or would you rather keep them locked up in the high mmr at the consequence of trapping some casual players in an mmr they dont belong in. Behaviour definitely caters towards their casual player base as their demographic (and extortionate iridescent costs) are prone to be more of a "i just want to work, get home and play a horror game and spend my money on more fun things). Pissing off this community with the game industry classic "this games getting too sweaty" is a doomsend for dead by daylights sales. I dont fully grasp how mmr works as i was under the assumption that (with killer) each had their seperate mmr which was slightly influenced by their highest mmr killers. However, i feel as if the mmr is good at protecting me and many other players (i choose or sometimes dont choose to humbly lose matches or team because... its chill, it doesnt matter and at least i can look forward to the next match knowing ive not entered hell). And as always, mmr sucks across the board, no game is safe from this unsavoury concept... i personally believe casual games would become more healthy over time if sbmm just didnt exist or had a very loose effect. IRLproves this, what do you get when you segregate groups of people from others. You get conflict and conplaining between groups, elitism and the communities within communities start to massively differ to the overarching community (which then will restart the loop again, more conflict more elitism and more communities start to differ etc etc)
I played dbd as leather face on time in the uk from like 1 am to like 2 30 am and played roughly 5 matches with 3 of those matches being with the same swf over and over again so ye they match you up in the same mmr
BHVR won't ever make MMR visible because it would hurt egos of a lot of "pseudocasual" players, as I like to call them - people who claim they casually play this game for fun, but in reality care too much about winning and think they're genuinely entitled to winning and that whenever they lose it's because of anything but themselves. BHVR wouldnt want to give these people even a temptation to get a reality check when they peek into MMR number to confirm how "good" they actually are at the game.
I’d rather there was a visible meaningful grade in dbd so I actually have something to work for and it would make it less boring. It would actually hook me more. I don’t get the whole “bhvr hide MMR so it doesn’t make the casuals butthurt and people stay hooked on the game” psychology behind it. If you play casually and not to win then you wouldn’t care what your grade is in the first place, and if you play to win but you’re just bad it incentivises you to improve. Like I used to be bad at cod when I first played it but I still bought every single DLC and improved until I was good.
Should be visible. Would be less frustrating when you lose. 1-If it's against a team with higher MMR you can already play chill knowing the possibility of a defeat is high and can even observe better in ways you can improve. 2-With same MMR you at least know both sides did their best and you would know when a evenly "fight" happened if you, of course, come with the right mindset that you can't win all matches. 3-Would be frustrating to lose against a lower MMR for any reason, but at least combined with the other two possibilities would somehow balance things up between frustration and satisfaction.
Is afk docs low MMR I literally been getting so much lately even 1 in the event which is madness. Really wish you were able to see MMR... If you start at bronze what is the copper tier ?
you start out in the experimental tier. if you win too much, you get thrusted up, if you lose too much you get thrusted down. if your results are mixed, you stay. that way you can go into the bracket you belong in as quickly as possible. i doubt too many people go to copper though, or at least not for long.
What if a full swf has people with varying experience from noob to pro. Would the lobby you get sent to depend on the person with the most/least experience? or somewhere in between? I'd hate to get a friend into dbd and they get absolutely destroyed
So I have a acc where I only escape through hatch and I think it goes to a middle ground cause it basically means I have never escaped through the gate so if I play alone. It’s basically either really bad to mediocre killers. If I play with a friend who’s really really good I’ll get either a mediocre to good to amazing killer. So I guess I kinda bypassed the mmr. If I want chill games I play solo if I want your typical to sweaty games I play with friends but I always escape from hatch. 🤷🏼♂️ and idc if people think it’s scummy I’d rather prioritize my mental health and never have stress. Then escape normal for killer if I get a 4k I usually have to get a 1k for a few games after
@@Blearh I was afraid that would be the case. I guess I'll have to smurf or something if I want to show my friend the ropes and not make them instant refund haha
I'm pretty sure, according to your description of the games, that I'm somehwere in silver bracket as killer - and probably bronze or even copper as survivor. So I'm probably a bracket lower on both, because we (I) like to overestimate us (me). That being said, there is another reason why devs could decide not to show MMR, that's something that is happening in other games already and that is that people/players absolutely LOVE to talk down to people that have 3 points less than themselves. You can see that in Valorant and similar games even though the difference between ranks there isn't as big - especially in lower ranks. Adding that to the already somewhat toxic base community we have, I'm pretty sure the game would be insufferable for a while. if it wouldn't be for that, I'd agree an option to enable seeing it by personal choice would be best, but I've got some really bad expectations if that actually would happen.
imo they should be visible, It was visible with the previous grade systems, why hide it now? With grades I could see when the lobby was all iri's with that one bronze in the game via swf, or when I played in an all gold swf vs an Iri nurse. if I can see everyones MMR I can look and see if my soloq team was goofing around or were genuinely newer to the game or were just bad, It'd also just be a point for comparison in general.
I've been lurking in the hacking community for quite a while now and what you said about the "mmr tracker" (01:30) is simply not true. The ability to see everyone's mmr in a lobby was fixed by BHVR back in June. Now the mmr is never sent back to the client and therefore is impossible to be observed even with hacks. This is also a reminder for everyone who's ever seen their favorite DBD streamer claim they checked their "exact" mmr with the help of hackers. If that happened after June 2024 then they lied to you.
There is legitimately no reason why you shouldn't be able to see your MMR. I understand not being able to view other people's MMR but you should be able to see your own 100%.
Okay hot take here that’s probably going to go against the grain but this game wasn’t ment to be the hyper competitive game that is becoming. It has the smash brothers effect the game was just supposed to be fun and it does acknowledge there is going to be different skill levels. But I do feel like they are trying to keep it “casual” not trying to balances things around the top 10 % players.
many players don´t understand that they hurt themselves by trying to win too hard. it´s this endless cycle of toxicity where you feel like you never become good at the game. i played dbd before mmr, so i know even back then i was an above average player. now I feel like the biggest noob and don´t even take the game seriously anymore
I thought this was a super interesting video so I decided to run the experiment on a new account for myself. I played wraith with no perks and 4k'd every game (2 times 3k's they got hatch with gens left) from ash 4 to iri 1, it took 14 hours. By the last games I was still playing against bad players and didn't get a single competent team the whole time. If I had to ballpark it had to have been around 60 games with an average of 1.5 pips per game. If we take the low end of 15 mmr gained per game because my average game time was short I would have ended at around 1725 mmr. This would be around the middle of the gold tier mmr. I still didn't get a single good team. All this to say the mmr system is completely useless and might as well not be real
To this day I see some pretty out there takes on game balance on social media. To the point I can't determine if it's wilful ignorance or plain stupidity.
They hide the mmr because they don't want to be bitched at for it not working, like back with the old emblem system you'd see rank 20 killers pitted against rank 3+ survivors who just dunked on them.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Dead by Daylight Surely has the worst MMR system in gaming. And Don't Call Me Shirley.
yes, by means of designing the game in such a way that mmr is irrelevant - bc it only takes ONE bad teammate to lose the whole match
and know what comes next? by losing the match you get your mmr decreased, meaning the next time your teammate will be even weaker - effectively meaning their mmr design does the OPPOSITE of what it should
Waddup Shirley
You tell'em Shirley!
@@ruslansmirnov9006yep. Bc I STILL try my best and do my part while at least 2 teams matesc play for hatch EVERY match
@@ruslansmirnov9006 What hurts even more is realizing right off the bat that one or two of your teammates are going to play selfishly and just having to accept a loss in advance, it makes the game so boring.
The note about 2-3 gens popping during first chase is such an important aspect of the game that catches a ton of newer players off guard the first time they encounter it, since if you're not used to playing at presumably higher MMRs, it could feel like you've already lost the game. I wish I could see my own MMR since I enjoy looking at my own play from an analytical standpoint and it'd be cool to see if I was actually in MMR hell or just playing trash lmao. :)
I agree. It's hard to improve if you don't know if you're making too many mistakes or if you're playing against really good survivors
Agreed that happens to me way too often.
@Cassiao Same! Even as survivor, it would be nice to know not only my MMR but also that of my teammates, so that way I know if I'm being matched fairly or if my team is just having bad luck against the killer, or the killer is way above my current skill bracket.
Same as killer, would love to know if I'm against a lucky team of coordinated Solo's or if the team is a genuinely cracked SWF.
In my experience if 2-3 gens pop in first chase and it was a somewhat fast chase, then you have already lost or at least drawn the match unless you either play a bit "dirty" such getting someone out quick, or the survivors screw up by being ultra altruistic. Survivor altruism wins a lot of killer games, a lot more than most people think.
just look at how truetalents or sb elses matches look like every game, u will know if it looks like that (literal pool of sweat) or not
Imo kills shouldn't be the sole factor determining mmr. Hook stages should be a higher priority. Making kills the win factor helps encourage tunneling and some other "toxic" behavior.
It also lets people like me abuse the system. I can still get 8-10 hooks at 4 gens and then decide to let 2+ people live so my mmr doesn't increase or even drops.
This is why Patrick was the worst dev to ever exist. Downey was right
@@R1v3rxb3ar "but was it really a skillful chase then?"
That's the smartest thing I read from a RUclips comment in a while lol
I wish MMR would be visible, just so all those smug people online with Dunning Kruger's would get a reality check. I am not claiming to be a pro player, it's just aren't people tired of hearing obvious bullshit like "I run no gen slowdown and I consistently get easy 4k's with 2-3 gens left"? They genuinely believe that they're some top tier players because there's a red "rank 1" on their profile and that they know better than people who played since beta.
where are those people believing red ranks matter? can you point a finger?
and, playing since beta doesn't immediately make you a knower. learning, experimenting and analyzing does. you can easily be delulu for a long time since beta
@@semplar2007 I didn't say I played since beta, I was specifically thinking about Tru3Ta1ent. Every time he talks about balance you will have at least one obviously newer player thinking he knows better than everyone else. It is usually followed by them for example mentioning how easily they get 4k's without gen defense to back up how experienced they are, not knowing how ridiculous they sound. Mentions of ranks are rare, but you still see people do so every now and then talk about them as if they matter. Not necessarily out of malice, the whole system is just confusing.
@@anonymoususer-y7h because they either: play on lower mmr, or different servers (for example, us servers tend to have less sweaty players), or they are actually good at the game, or they just came to troll tru3talent. who knows. talking makes no differences, demonstration does. yes the game is survivor-sided, there is a reason why people in competitive put heavy restrictions on survivor builds and items. regarding tru3talent, i don't support all the hate towards him, but i highly disagree regarding his stand on tunnelling and gen slowdown. his problem is he claims HIGH MMR COOL KILLER PLAYS NO SMURFS ONLY REAL PLAYS in his titles, and then complains about oh-so-hard-life of the killer main. then don't be sweaty. when you're playing sweaty, you're getting sweaty opponents as a result, and now you need to be much more precise with your killer powers and game sense. he has signed for it himself
@@semplar2007 Yes, that is Dunning Kruger's and they are not trolling. Also I am not interested in discussing him. I avoided naming him for this very reason.
There are a lot of people like these on steam discussion forums.
MMR should be visible. It's such a basic feature of any PvP game.
I can't wait for all the reddit and twitter jockeys beginning their arguments with "2000+ MMR XY main here" as soon as MMR would be visible.
At the very least you could fact check them unlike right now where people just say "I'm high MMR" despite having no idea if that's true or not lol
I'd be more likely to listen to someone who could actually prove it versus those "acktually i play both sides and i think FTP shouldn't break the user" types.
@@Tbot_2 at least that would have some credibility as opposed to “P100 here”
I'd be surprised if the average DBD redditor was above 800. Their takes are legit dog shit and they have no idea how the game works.
That's one of the best parts of it. To filter out incompetent opinions.
4:34+ ackchyually based.
Great info, cheers dude.
Hey, that streamer at the beginning was mad annoying
(Thank you for your continued work with showing us how MMR and hacking works in DBD. Maybe it'd be cool to put all the MMR explanation videos in a playlist so we can send them to people who aren't sure how MMR works?)
Bran jumpscare
Mic pops
oh yeah that guy is weird. his words are meaningless
This pretty much confirms a lot of opinions I had already. The problem isn't the idea of SBMM itself, it's how BHVR has implemented it. Ideally, people should not be sorted into "brackets", it should be a smooth gradient, a bell curve where the majority of people are in the middle MMR range. The main problem in my opinion is threefold; one, solo and SWF share a queue, their MMR points are considered equal despite one being much easier. Two, the cap is not only low, but completely arbitrary. And three, MMR points for both sides are rewarded for gameplay that many do not consider skillful. It's not uncommon for the least skilled survivor who hid all game to get out, while the ones who worked their ass off get tunneled out early and are considered losers.
great video man! sometimes I wanna go back to rank based MM. it wasn't perfect but at least it was more transparent
So few of us remember those times! I could always tell the purples from the reds just based on usernames alone! I just loved farming BBQ stacks in green ranks and letting everyone go. Such great times!
But I also remember WHY the ranks were hidden. It needed to happen.
Your point about time and region has the most impact on me personally. I don't think MMR affects me since I mostly play off peak hours NA solo queue. One game my team will get destroyed because my teammates don't even know how to look behind them, the next game I'll literally get Vulpixia's nurse, then right after I'll get a baby killer finishes the game with 2 hook states. I feel like I already play without SBMM. At this point I should start tracking and giving this 'experiment' a try.
Impressive insight on MMR as always. One question though:
Does BHVR ever perform sneaky MMR reset or shifts nowadays? Monthly grades are pretty much placebo but few people are still claiming their anecdotal experiences on "monthly reset brings different games".
In my experience, the games get progressively more sweaty, probably because people want that Iri 1 rank as soon as possible. I just play and slowly get my grades.
The ranks still play into the matchmaking. When I didnt play DBD for a week or two and then am "late" to getting to Iri, I get significantly worse opponents. If no gens pop before your first down, unless youre playing an S-tier killer, that means your opponents are not great. It is that simple.
@@Flotter-Flo wow, that I didn't know, that's interesting
@@Flotter-FloMaybe that’s correct or BHVR has kind of an Engagement Optimization Matchmaking (EOMM) where the game tries to keep you playing so if you took a break game wants your matches to be wins. I had the same experience when I came back, first 5-10 matches were extremely unfairly matched in terms of mmr.
pretty sure they brought it back
2 or 3 months ago
i never felt this way
now suddenly the first matches when i come back to the game feel like im against bots
could be mmr deteriorating on "vacation" alternatively lmao
i really enjoyed your streams when u did this challenge fun content man good job
Mmr is still an invisible number so i really dont like assuming what bracket im in. So i won't.
the beginning lol
Great video. I agree with every point you made. You mentioned something about killer being able to see if players are in a swf. As a solo q survivor, I just want to say, please don't do that to us. After the match, sure, but not before.
According to this, I'm clearly in Gold Tier. Killer main for two years with 1800 hours. I HATE having to play against full SWF tryhards every single game! I do still get kills, but it's stressful. It's super rare that I ever get casual games as killer. The game feels completely survivor sided and I gotta play incredibly smart and hard to win...which I don't necessarily want to. When I play with my friends in customs, who I SWF with, I absolutely dominate them without even trying. I just want more casual games. These sweaty games all the time isn't fun.
I feel like the easy solution is to just add an unranked mode where MMR doesnt apply. Its not a perfect solution, but its better than nothing. Its very rare to have any game where there is casual play in PvP, unless that game has a system where servers can be community moderated either by straight up offering community servers to players or having a vote to kick option which i feel neither is viable for DBD. Players will always try to optimize the fun out of a game, and coming across it randomly instead of predictably with an MMR system doesn't feel any better to me. You cant force people to play casually just because you want to have an easier time winning, and if you dont have fun sweating your balls off to win then games with MMR based PvP just arent for you..and i dont mean that in a mean way, just if you dont have fun with the way the game is played then why play it at all?
@tmoney1487 I meant casually play as I want to be able to goof around and have personality. I don't like having to tunnel and slug to get the win. I played my friends in customs the other day and I had all 4 on death hook with one gen left. That is fair, imo. That is a balanced game. It wasn't three gens popped when I had one hook like I see in live matches.
I feel this but unfortunately once you start going against optimal SWFs there’s no turning back and you either play your strong killers that have a chance against them or try to learn a killer and get tbagged at the exit gate because they outplayed you with Prerunning and Spreading out to do the gens
@themarketgardener I'm an Onryo main. I do beat them, but it's always a challenge. Sometimes they do escape. I just love it when I can have casual games and not be so serious.
That's my experience too but I'm a survivor main, it feels killer sided but hearing you say the opposite it means it's somewhat balanced
😂😅😭
I cant confirm the "not giving up in lower brackets." ive ended up playing on my low mmr account, first it was out of accident but then i finally got to see way more variety in the killers im going against. Nedless to say as a killer its way easyer. Im playing quite some time on this account now and recently there is always someone rage quitting on first down even when im not the killer.
As a survivor who plays majority soloq who is stuck in that silver tier, it is absolute fucking hell man. New survivors, 4 minute chases with literally no gen progress, generally terrible decision making.. yeah team games really suck when thats where you are at..
But then every once in a blue moon you get a good team or even just a good teammate and they tank that important hit that makes a 3 out a 4 out or etcetc and you literally want to fucking marry them because its been so long since a random has had the idea to do that for you.
If killer players could see SWF they would just skip the lobby.
Maybe, maybe. Most killers would. But some, some would come prepared.
This is the only game where people talk like they know where they stand but they don't. It's just so strange
The old ranking system when ranks actually mattered (and you could actually see it) was better than the current system.
I think the biggest reason why BHVR isnt showing the MMR values are kinda simple: DBD Players suck.
People already are always on the lookout to blame failures onto others. If no gen pops during a 3 second chase, it wasnt the guy who went down in 3 seconds, it was the fault of the others. You can even now see what the others are up to, yet still nobody thinks about the "how". For example why didnt all 3 others got to a gen in 3 seconds? Maybe it was a player with deja vu who wanted to avoid a 3-gen scenario at the end, so they went to a better generator to benefit from the perk. Maybe someone dropped a cup of tea on the floor, maybe they did a totem for a tome, etc.
There are like a billion reasons why people do or dont do what others think they should be doing. So if you enable visible MMR the moment the guy with the 3 second chase sees that he is like 5 points higher, he claims that everything he says is correct, even though the others were doing fine, just had their own goals in mind. I see a lot of streamers making like the dumbest claims ever and keep yelling about that nobody does anything and that they do the most work, even though you can literally see that it is not true. Sure, you can manage to complete all 5 gens, but how many of those did they did 100%? maybe 1 of them at the start while all 3 of their partners were in chases. For the others, they just completed the last 10% maximum.
Also we already have seen how people react to a visible "mmr", when ranks still had "some" value to it (it never was a good gauge to see how good someone is, but it influenced matchmaking). So to just shut those people up, those values were made invisible. And ofc people want it to be visible, because they want to brag and shove their failures onto others that are "less skilled", even though i am pretty sure 99% of people would be in shock at first since they are not as high in MMR as they thought.
Absolutely agree. Making MMR visible would be a sure-fire way to make the game even sweatier. It would basically be like a league table. People, who complain about uber-sweat now, would have a rude awakening if MMR would become visible. 100%!
Lets not put the full blame on the playerbase here, as much as they suck, but the Developers kinda propetuate the toxicy with their own.
poor mister headache lmao love his comedic attitude to dbd (which i personally think we should all have) i do agree with choys anger to sbmm at the same time however haha xD RAWRR
MMR Being Visible would be so good for creators
No it wouldn't lol it would reveal that a lot of content creators are in lower brackets than they think. For example, there is NO WAY Otz's survivor mmr is in gold bracket
I would like it I have a high winrate against swf's every game so it would be interesting for my chat to see. it would also avoid brainrot comments and give people more of a understanding on harder games.
i think everything would be sm easier for everyone if there was a casual mode and a separate ranked mode
I disagree, I used to play LoL all the time, and they have a normal and ranked mode like you are talking about, and in every game without fail there are multiple people who queue up for the normal (supposed to be casual) game mode, but still play as if its a ranked match with their livelihood on the line.
I saw most of the experiment live and I agree completely.
We know this will not be visible in the future but it (hopefully) provides perspective.
What is possible is showing who ready together, this would help the health of the game imo.
The reason why people say mmr doesn't exist is because its not really hard at all to hit that 1400 soft cap. Ive always seen mmr as a way to just separate brand new players from more experienced players. That is why I roll my eyes whenever someone uses "High mmr" as some sort of qualifier so their point is somehow more valid. I can say for pretty much certain that most people don't want an accurate mmr system, Id rather my queue times not take 20-30mins.
As far as should they show mmr? I honestly don't know. A part of me wants to show people that it doesn't matter to a lot of people, but another part of me doesn't want to give the "As a high mmr player" crowd more fuel for their stupid takes.
tru3 literally just did this the other day with hillbilly, no add ons or perks
At this point is really hard to balance across all mmr, but i think they should consider to add the game help they are adding in 2v8, so if generator takes to long increase speed and if generators is to fast reduce speed, if this thing really works in 2v8 they should add in the main game, that way even if a very different skill players get paired they at least have a chance and don't spend more time in queue then in game
Visual MMR would be great, but they will never do it for all the reasons you listed. If you think about it from a developer standpoint, it would be stupid for them to do it. Also, silver ranks would become far more sweaty, ironically from people intentionally not ranking up to keep their own matches "chill". Personally, I would love it. I know any time I have a good run and hit that gold mark though. It's obvious because I get destroyed for like 10 matches in a row suddenly, after having a legitimate win streak. 😂😢
we could know which creators are smurfing too lol. it would be great, but yeah they will never do it. personally, i would love to see basically 75% of the playerbase who says "oh yeah i'm something like low gold, you know, high mmr but not the best of the best haha NOW AGREE WITH MY BALANCE CHANGES", realize they are mid at best.
HIIIII missed you buddy
We appreciate a lot your job on this subject Choy, and as a community we need to protect ourselves of scummy developer tactics that behavior constantly try on us, they gaslighted the hell out of us for years about this subject and now because of your information request video things could change for the better. Thank you a lot!
I recently got so annoyed at losing nearly every game in row against sweaty toxic swifts when I played really well, run the right perks and tried my best every game, that I finally decided it's time to tank my MMR. I went friendly and got zero kills for around 10 to 15 games which means my mmr dropped by around 200 - 300, and what a surprise I had, finally, fun as killer again. I never thought I'd see the day, I played against good players who put up a challenge but weren't extremely sweaty, comp players with no lives. I had very few dc's or giving up as well. If you're in the same boat, I highly recommend tanking your MMR, just lose games for over an hour or so, watch tv just vibe, then play seriously. I hate to actually do this, but if you want to play killer more casually at high mmr, it's impossible. You either need to sweat your dick off or hope to god there the type that don't do gens, but if they are they will just be toxic and annoying so you lose either way.
Tru, tru. Games vs. swf is fully unbalanced devastating experience with absolutely zero fun. Tryharders with 99689976986798958965868 hours should be stewing in their own cauldron and not ruining the game with semi-casual. So, tanking mmr is very good idea for ordinary player.
Went on a Legion spree a few years ago before their buff for about 600 hours straight during an anniversary. Dear lord I learned a lot that July.
Limit modes I heard are supposed to use main MMR but not change it after the fact but it seems like the skill bracket is extremely loose for them. It's the only time where matches feel mostly random instead of a sweat fest every game
Im curious to know what mine is..but prolly never find out. I'm guessing silver but who knows.
This is a great video! I agree visible mmr would be good to have , even if it's optional. Does each killer have separate mmr ? I've always wondered as a killer main for some time now
Thank you for your service o7
Man oh man I hope tru3 sees this one
This proves his point no tho? MMR definitely exists and he isn’t at the bottom of it
@@Rambone1978 no, the opposite actually. Tru3 claims that major content creators that post videos of them juicing killers are on Smurf accounts. However, the mmr doesn’t work quite like he thinks it does. So, this should prove to him that even tho mmr is in place and it works, it doesn’t work the way he thinks it does or should, and should stop throwing baseless accusations out about smurfing
@@PettyPerkins i'm pretty sure he is aware about the differences within a single bracket. you still have to be doing something fishy to consistently get so many outright babies and not just low gold players in your matches.
Edit: well here you, right from this comment section "So I have a acc where I only escape through hatch and I think it goes to a middle ground cause it basically means I have never escaped through the gate so if I play alone. It’s basically either really bad to mediocre killers. If I play with a friend who’s really really good I’ll get either a mediocre to good to amazing killer. So I guess I kinda bypassed the mmr. If I want chill games I play solo if I want your typical to sweaty games I play with friends but I always escape from hatch. 🤷🏼♂ and idc if people think it’s scummy I’d rather prioritize my mental health and never have stress. Then escape normal for killer if I get a 4k I usually have to get a 1k for a few games after"
People are aware of these things and actively manipulate them. and the effect is very tangible even if not infalible.
@magical571 oh please the majority of ppl don't do this especially not the big ccs
@@PettyPerkinsI don't understand your point. True clearly plays against higher-tier survivors most of the time, unlike other streamers like Otz for example, who barely or rarely. And yeah, Survivor main content creators are manipulating their MMR with advanced cheats or tricks. Obviously, I have no proof of this, but I have 2 Epic Games accounts and 2 Steam accounts, and I've been playing Dead by Daylight since 2018. From my experience, their content is BS and fake. Clearly, they need highlights-highlights are content, content is money, and money is life. Without highlights, you have basic or no content, so you have no money. It's a very simple concept, but today's people seem to lack common sense.
Those RUclipsrs face low to low-mid, at most mid-level killers/survivors 80-90% of the time, mostly default skins and poor pathing.
True knows what MMR-System is. And obviously, if higher-tier survivors aren’t available, you’ll get weaker teams. And since MMR is still invisible, this video isn’t 100% proof, but even it is, these not against True, this is with True.
The devs never have balanced matchmaking.
They have just gotten better at hiding how flawed it is.
"The devs never have balanced matchmaking." how so?
@@magical571 noobs are getting matched with everyday year 1 players.
@@magical571I (3k hours) have been occasionally matched with people who have less and 100 hours
So the entity will let you escape with a head trap and victor but draws the line at going bonkers?!!
as someone who really struggles to keep up with what mmr, sbmm, etc is all about, this video was incredibly informative, and well explained enough for me to follow! great vid :)
3:44 a lost opportunity of inserting Wesker's face lmao
Very informative video. Thank you for taking the time to do this for people :)
So the high MMR soft cap is now at 1.400 instead of 1.600? Lol, makes the "high MMR" disclaimer even muddier than it was before.
*"Hmmm let's see what the devs broke this time"* is my first thought whenever BHVR releases a new update. 🤷♂
I hate that I relate. I hate that there is never just 1 answer. They always fuck so much up.
True. Entirely, completely, and utterly irrelevant to the video in it's entirety, but true.
I wish I could see my mmr because no matter how hard I try to increase I just keep getting baby survivors and with 1k+ hours it just doesnt feel fair.. I do like to do some friendly killer rounds or let some survivors escape but even when I win 50 matches in a row it feels like my mmr doesn't change at all and its so frustrating.. if I could see my mmr I could at least avoid decreasing it too much and avoid stomping players that literally just installed the game
Each killer has their own mmr
Yeah, but only to an extent. They sytem rubberbands. So even if you play a killer for the first time, the MMR will be capped from being too much lower than whatever your highest performing killer is.
Even without open mmr number you can feel when killer is new player (or low "mmr") or your teammate but it's too late.
As i said numerous time, and agree with you, BHVR do it on pourpose to spread their own narrative and agenda without caring about players
I most likely bounce between silver vs gold.
I don't know how accurate it is. Last year i had a win streak of 40 with ghost face and 60 with myers after i lost motivation. I had not the feeling that survivors got that much better. Of course i had to tunnel frequently to win games and used the best perks available.
Is there even enough players for sbmm to matter? Because a game like call of duty has millions of players, which guarantees that every match you will be playing against players with similar skill level.
But with DBD it's very different, not only is the population smaller, but also the MMR is 1 vs 4. It is not balanced. Maybe because I play at 3am, but I go on winning streaks of like 10 matches, 4k and a gen or more left, but I keep getting matched with very bad players. And only occasionally the survivors who will actually give me a challenge.
youre right
sbmm in dbd has a wide leeway because otherwise people would get matched against the same too often with too long queue times
it does still matter tho
trash matchmaking is not the same as no matchmaking
Some of the biggest DBD creators like Otz & Scott Jund seem to have pretty chill killer games most of the time, and still win almost all their games.
Why do you think that is? Are they really that good that they make tournament-level players look amateurish? Or is there some quirk with the system that matches them with lower MMR survivors?
The matchmaking is trash is the simple answer. If it can't find people of equal skill then it will just go down the ladder till it finds them. This is also a reason why people go into the whole "mmr doesn't exist" argument. You have a few matches like this after a match or two of pure sweat and pain and so you start to second guess everything.
the system is most definitely trash. im a (not great)survivor main, and die most of my matches. and lo and behold, last week it turned out me and my partner were playing against otz lol
The problem with MMR is something I can’t explain but I can tell you that in my games I have 2 completely different sets of survivors. As killer I will see the sweatiest players in a swf destroying me every game but when I go to survivor I can’t sit back and do a gen because the 3 other “teammates” would all be on death hook before I even finished the first gen. So my gameplay became running a 5 gen chase or lose, tunnel 1 person out at the start so I stand a slight chance. I stopped playing the game because it stopped being fun I don’t enjoy running the whole game it’s stressful and then on killer I hate that I will literally never see those people on my team
I can confirm everything he is saying is 100% true, I have been playing on a old account that was last used in 2017 so it is basically a new fresh account and everything he is saying is extremely accurate.
Also one fog whisperer told in their video that if someone dodge the lobby, the game will put anyone in the queue to shorten the wait for the match. So this is literally the easiest way to prove that this system doesn't work.
I feel a visible MMR would just add to the "ego" some players have. As you mentioned in the video, people with a higher MMR would be listened to or believed more from the community at large. But I also feel there would be the antagonistic view of "your MMR is lower, so you don't know what you're talking about". People would use it simply for the belittlement of others and their opinions.
It would have been great if your hacker friends confirmed your MMR estimates every now and then, to make sure you correctly identified your MMR bracket.
4:15 i dont know if you counted it, but hatch escapes doesnt increaces nor decreaces the mmr right? It count as a "tie" on the 1x1 pov i think
couldnt agree more, its because its a community problem not a BHVR problem, so they dont care 🤷♀
Choy does slugging affect MMR? If everyone bleeds out do you lose MMR, stay neutral, or gain MMR?
you lose mmr
MMR wiki page states that it doesn't matter, as long as they die it's a kill.
@@anonymoususer-y7h try it
choose 1 killer and keep slugging and bleeding out and see if the matches keep getting easier
SO, how does survivor MMR work?
Do you always lose -20 if you die, regardless of how many people got out?
Do you always gain +20 if you escape, regardless of how many died?
Is the number of survivors alive even a factor?
About the only thing I know is that hatch escapes count as +0
Is it like
Escaped, but everyone else is dead results in 0
Escaped, two man out +5
Escaped, three-man out +10
Escaped, four-man out +20
How's it work for dead survivors?
First of all, Great video! Really enjoyed a deeper look into the system!
About this part:
11:30
"People naturally would listen to Those with the highest MMR, because they have the most credibility when it comes to balance.
Bhvr does not want the "sweatiest" people in the community to have the louder voice than anyone else..."
God, as someone who played, a lot of online pvp games, this is the cringest concept ever.. The developer, not wanting the good players to be listened too, because then everyone would realize how fucked the balance in this game is.
As I said, I played a lot of online games before, but only in DBD it seems to be bad thing, to be a good player. ( "sweaty", "tryhard" etc.)
Either grow up, stop playing, get good or stop taking shit so seriously.
Some people just wanna play the game.
"the vast majority doesnt understand how sweaty dbd can be" bro we know, trust we do.
"so through my contacts who make hacks for the game, that i often talk to.."
Nah, i think from a dev perspective its to stop players from manipulating the system. To do with your point of them not wanting high mmr players to have a big narrative, its more likely because they disagree with the narrative. Bare in mind, the devs made an indie game that was tailored towards party games but because its online its not always plausable.
This issue with public and constant competitiveness is a known problem for behaviour and its understandable how they merely desire to never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever let the masses of top notch (inherently competitive and excellent players) be able to actively leak themselves into the lower ranks.
Hiding sbm is a very common thing and its not because game studios are the shadow government hellbent on spreading misinformation. Its because sweaty players amist the public community would cum absolutely everywhere if they were able to specifically manipulate their mmr to bully the common folk (outskill newish players).
This also explains the diminish in point reduction towards the lowest end of top mmr, would you rather consistently get some sweaty players seeping through the cracks just because they had a few bad games. Or would you rather keep them locked up in the high mmr at the consequence of trapping some casual players in an mmr they dont belong in.
Behaviour definitely caters towards their casual player base as their demographic (and extortionate iridescent costs) are prone to be more of a "i just want to work, get home and play a horror game and spend my money on more fun things). Pissing off this community with the game industry classic "this games getting too sweaty" is a doomsend for dead by daylights sales.
I dont fully grasp how mmr works as i was under the assumption that (with killer) each had their seperate mmr which was slightly influenced by their highest mmr killers. However, i feel as if the mmr is good at protecting me and many other players (i choose or sometimes dont choose to humbly lose matches or team because... its chill, it doesnt matter and at least i can look forward to the next match knowing ive not entered hell). And as always, mmr sucks across the board, no game is safe from this unsavoury concept... i personally believe casual games would become more healthy over time if sbmm just didnt exist or had a very loose effect. IRLproves this, what do you get when you segregate groups of people from others. You get conflict and conplaining between groups, elitism and the communities within communities start to massively differ to the overarching community (which then will restart the loop again, more conflict more elitism and more communities start to differ etc etc)
i’d say i’m around high silver low gold, 700 hour killer main
I played dbd as leather face on time in the uk from like 1 am to like 2 30 am and played roughly 5 matches with 3 of those matches being with the same swf over and over again so ye they match you up in the same mmr
I wonder if there a soft lock mmr system in the game for not gold tier
A proper ranked gamemode like in cs and valorant would also be good.
it benefits both comp and casual players
People on both sides would queue into casual in order to get easy matches and sweat to 4 man out/4k every game
@@smithbrown2848 casual wouldnt be affected by mmr.
SBMM doesn’t belong in any game that has ranks so stupid that it ever became popular by devs Ubisoft in particular 2.0 ranked made the game brainless
Finally a voice of reason in this awful community
BHVR won't ever make MMR visible because it would hurt egos of a lot of "pseudocasual" players, as I like to call them - people who claim they casually play this game for fun, but in reality care too much about winning and think they're genuinely entitled to winning and that whenever they lose it's because of anything but themselves. BHVR wouldnt want to give these people even a temptation to get a reality check when they peek into MMR number to confirm how "good" they actually are at the game.
I was really missing a discussion on the ethics of smurfing.
I’d rather there was a visible meaningful grade in dbd so I actually have something to work for and it would make it less boring. It would actually hook me more. I don’t get the whole “bhvr hide MMR so it doesn’t make the casuals butthurt and people stay hooked on the game” psychology behind it. If you play casually and not to win then you wouldn’t care what your grade is in the first place, and if you play to win but you’re just bad it incentivises you to improve. Like I used to be bad at cod when I first played it but I still bought every single DLC and improved until I was good.
Should be visible.
Would be less frustrating when you lose.
1-If it's against a team with higher MMR you can already play chill knowing the possibility of a defeat is high and can even observe better in ways you can improve.
2-With same MMR you at least know both sides did their best and you would know when a evenly "fight" happened if you, of course, come with the right mindset that you can't win all matches.
3-Would be frustrating to lose against a lower MMR for any reason, but at least combined with the other two possibilities would somehow balance things up between frustration and satisfaction.
the only way to make mmr better, its just delete that shit, and bring back old rank system
Finally someone that understands why top mmr survivors are strong and gens fly at high level even with slowdown
Yep and BHVR keep stripping gen defense away because they are balancing around Copper players
Is afk docs low MMR I literally been getting so much lately even 1 in the event which is madness. Really wish you were able to see MMR... If you start at bronze what is the copper tier ?
you start out in the experimental tier. if you win too much, you get thrusted up, if you lose too much you get thrusted down. if your results are mixed, you stay. that way you can go into the bracket you belong in as quickly as possible. i doubt too many people go to copper though, or at least not for long.
What if a full swf has people with varying experience from noob to pro. Would the lobby you get sent to depend on the person with the most/least experience? or somewhere in between? I'd hate to get a friend into dbd and they get absolutely destroyed
So I have a acc where I only escape through hatch and I think it goes to a middle ground cause it basically means I have never escaped through the gate so if I play alone. It’s basically either really bad to mediocre killers. If I play with a friend who’s really really good I’ll get either a mediocre to good to amazing killer. So I guess I kinda bypassed the mmr. If I want chill games I play solo if I want your typical to sweaty games I play with friends but I always escape from hatch. 🤷🏼♂️ and idc if people think it’s scummy I’d rather prioritize my mental health and never have stress. Then escape normal for killer if I get a 4k I usually have to get a 1k for a few games after
@@Blearh I was afraid that would be the case. I guess I'll have to smurf or something if I want to show my friend the ropes and not make them instant refund haha
@@FredoZade I wouldn’t say it’s bad tho I promise you’ll get some good laughs seeing some stuff 😭😭
It averages mmr, so yes they will get destroyed unless you smurf
I'm pretty sure, according to your description of the games, that I'm somehwere in silver bracket as killer - and probably bronze or even copper as survivor. So I'm probably a bracket lower on both, because we (I) like to overestimate us (me).
That being said, there is another reason why devs could decide not to show MMR, that's something that is happening in other games already and that is that people/players absolutely LOVE to talk down to people that have 3 points less than themselves.
You can see that in Valorant and similar games even though the difference between ranks there isn't as big - especially in lower ranks. Adding that to the already somewhat toxic base community we have, I'm pretty sure the game would be insufferable for a while.
if it wouldn't be for that, I'd agree an option to enable seeing it by personal choice would be best, but I've got some really bad expectations if that actually would happen.
“I know the epic powerful hackers and I am subject their INFORMATION”soy
How does the MMR work among different killers? Is it 100% unlinked? Or does your highest rated killer affect the others in some way?
imo they should be visible, It was visible with the previous grade systems, why hide it now?
With grades I could see when the lobby was all iri's with that one bronze in the game via swf, or when I played in an all gold swf vs an Iri nurse.
if I can see everyones MMR I can look and see if my soloq team was goofing around or were genuinely newer to the game or were just bad, It'd also just be a point for comparison in general.
Wait there is an MMR system in DBD ??
This proves hens wrong and I LOVE IT
I've been lurking in the hacking community for quite a while now and what you said about the "mmr tracker" (01:30) is simply not true. The ability to see everyone's mmr in a lobby was fixed by BHVR back in June. Now the mmr is never sent back to the client and therefore is impossible to be observed even with hacks.
This is also a reminder for everyone who's ever seen their favorite DBD streamer claim they checked their "exact" mmr with the help of hackers. If that happened after June 2024 then they lied to you.
There is legitimately no reason why you shouldn't be able to see your MMR. I understand not being able to view other people's MMR but you should be able to see your own 100%.
Okay hot take here that’s probably going to go against the grain but this game wasn’t ment to be the hyper competitive game that is becoming. It has the smash brothers effect the game was just supposed to be fun and it does acknowledge there is going to be different skill levels. But I do feel like they are trying to keep it “casual” not trying to balances things around the top 10 % players.
Some of the things that need to be fixed is just common sense regardless of what rank you're.
So .. only four tiers?
That's odd considering how many different rank emblems there are for killer/survivor.
What has one to do with the other? Rank is essentially just a loyalty reward.
Only two MMR
Beginner MMR or Other MMR
bok choy
many players don´t understand that they hurt themselves by trying to win too hard. it´s this endless cycle of toxicity where you feel like you never become good at the game. i played dbd before mmr, so i know even back then i was an above average player. now I feel like the biggest noob and don´t even take the game seriously anymore
I thought this was a super interesting video so I decided to run the experiment on a new account for myself. I played wraith with no perks and 4k'd every game (2 times 3k's they got hatch with gens left) from ash 4 to iri 1, it took 14 hours. By the last games I was still playing against bad players and didn't get a single competent team the whole time. If I had to ballpark it had to have been around 60 games with an average of 1.5 pips per game. If we take the low end of 15 mmr gained per game because my average game time was short I would have ended at around 1725 mmr. This would be around the middle of the gold tier mmr. I still didn't get a single good team. All this to say the mmr system is completely useless and might as well not be real
To this day I see some pretty out there takes on game balance on social media. To the point I can't determine if it's wilful ignorance or plain stupidity.
13:00 Tell me pls whats a good time to play survivor / killer for EU
They hide the mmr because they don't want to be bitched at for it not working, like back with the old emblem system you'd see rank 20 killers pitted against rank 3+ survivors who just dunked on them.
Yes! Not to mention that MMR based matchmaking is disabled in every event mode or other mode they add because it would kill the queue time