Yo people - thought this might be an interesting one, although mildly depressing for me looking at what's possible for a newbie. Might lose all my gains just so I can make them again. Obviously as mentioned I'm a Black-Friday-whore and all my links/codes are in the video description. Some solid sales so check-em out by all means. TY friends. xxx Edit: some people disagree with my assumptions, which is fine. I might look at this video in a week and disagree with myself. If you're one of them, let me know what you think is reasonable (based on the actual data points plus some assumptions). If we have a person gaining 7.5kg in 12 weeks - what do YOU think would be possible in absolutely ideal conditions with top level genetics? Genuinely interested to hear/discuss. Obviously take the studies with a pinch of salt as they weren't designed specifically to look at muscle gain, and then take my assumptions with a larger pinch of salt. Maybe I should have been more clear about how much of this is guesswork. Also, what's possible over 12 weeks might not necessarily be possible over 52. So even if a person can gain x over 12 weeks, the chances of them repeating that every 12 weeks in the real world is slim. Holidays, injuries, work/family commitments, stress etc etc all get in the way. I don't think I have ever been anywhere near 'optimal' for a whole year - probably never even a whole 12 weeks.
Genetics is such a fascinating topic. Some guys take 5 years to bench 2 plates yet others can do it in like 3 months. Some naturals never get to 16inch arms yet others can do it within a year with the same training and conditions.
Funny you said this, I aimed to get 2 plates before Christmas starting in the end of august, I got it mid way through October, my friends who started at same time as me have been stuck on the same weights. It’s crazy how much genetics matter. I also train harder than then though in my opinion
Some crazy data - that one study that saw people making over 4x the gains of others blew my mind. Imagine how heartbreaking it would be if your training partner was over 4x'ing your results hahaha. I would stop training with that person and probably end the friendship.
Yeah, took me 3ish months to bench 90kg at 67kg BW. On the other hand you got people who still can't do 1 plate after 6 months while weighing a fair bit more. Glad I got the long end of the stick.
Started training this year properly at 48. Definitely a disadvantage, but it’s all about the journey. Been on fat loss for most of the year, muscle building starts in 2022. Your vids are great Joe.
By this logic you’d gain 79lbs/36kg of muscle in your first two years of training and that’s using the lowest possible numbers you’ve given and halving the rate of muscle gain each year, by the third year you’d have gained 40kg of muscle mass meaning a 55kg man could go up to 95kg of muscle over a 3 year period. Can anyone explain? Am I being dumb? These numbers seem way way too high even on the lower end
For the longest time I thought my genetics were bad but I realized my nutrition was the biggest issue like I wasn't eating enough ever to help me recover after my workouts once I upped it I started getting mad gains. In a year I blew tf up without getting fat my friends thought I was doing steroids lol
I’m 47 been lifting since the early 90s and 5ft 7” tall. Decent genetics and only started TRT under Dr’s guidance recently. Making gains but I was built before. Age stalled everything and got tested for test levels and was eligible for TRT so train 4 times a week, eat 3500 calories with 200 grams of protein and sleep for about 10 hours per day 👊🏻👊🏻👊🏻
It's the first video you up that i honestly disagree or just don't like(but i'll hit the like button anyway). We have no data on the weight of the participants prior to the study, can't quite believe on the lean muscle mass gained and will have to assume they were on "gera". 3 months to win 8kg of muscle it's insane. 8kg of mass? Fat included? Sure for a big guy. Maybe how muscle fibers get shredded and how long they take to repair, rebuild and grow would be a good support to this video. Anyway, thanks for taking the time over and over to make your awesome videos.
Very good points. Also, arbitrarily adding 1kg to account for a potentially better diet (just because not strictly tracked) and other protocols is lazy; we cannot assume linear increases at already such high numbers (7.5kg), maybe logarithmic at best if you're going to blindly account for stuff like that. Anyway... just goes to show how little is known (understandably) about this shit.
He didn’t say 8kg on average in 12 weeks - that was for genetic outliers in fairly ideal conditions. I can well believe the figures. I’m 39, nothing special genetically, have exercised all my life but never dedicated it to hypertrophy, but having put my mind to it I’ve gained 5kg of lean mass in 6 months, and that’s with a desk job and a family to work around, so see no reason why someone a lot younger, in ‘ideal conditions’, couldn’t gain a lot more….
Man, this is classic example of overthinking for me. The more I know, the more confused I get. My man Joe says I could ideally gain 5kg of muscle as a newbie in 12 weeks and then there's coach Greg saying I'll be lucky to gain 2kg of muscle in the whole year as a newbie. I guess he tries to lower your expectations so you're not disappointed because he knows that most people don't gain muscle in ideal conditions
I could have overestimated, but I have only gone from 4kg (actual study data) to 5kg assuming some improvements in training protocols etc. So I don't think it's that far of a reach. That being said, the 4kg group was the best performing group, not the study average overall, and 56 isn't a huge sample.
@@cormacdonnelly5015 the 4kg is actual data so I think even 4.5kg for a newbie is quite low IF (emphasis on if) we assume they have consistently good training/nutrition.
greg never said this, just go back to his video back in 2019, where he poste dthe possible amount of muscle gained in 1st year(it says, 8 to 12lbs of lean contractile tissue)
Hey I usually don’t comment on RUclips video but I really really like the way you implement ads/sponsorships? They flow really well and seem to focus more on selling it to the people that are actually interested.
Going back to full training and nutrition on Monday for the first time since Covid lockdown hit UK in 2020. Lost everything I ever gained since then. Hoping the mass comes back quick! Sad times 😭
Sick video man, I lifted for two months before the pandemic, and I'm back at it, two months into my training now even tho I gained a lot of fat before lifting again, so I've been "maingaining" because I don't want to be in a big surplus and get fat... but I don't want to waste my best year of gains so tbh I'll probably try to bulk and not cut in like 10 moths, I get married next May tho so I might need to change plans, but this makes me aware of how important it is to get as much as you can right at first. Regards
The numbers for the amount of muscle you can gain in a year are well off. Most people who have been lifting for 2 years and do everything perfect but don’t have amazing genetics cannot gain over 17 pounds of solid muscle tissue a year. Maybe on steroids but not natty
Take the data in this video with a small pinch of salt (studies not set up to measure muscle gain), then take my assumptions with a bigger pinch of salt.
My favourite fitness channel on RUclips but this is a massive overestimate of what can be expected and will leave a lot of lifters disappointed. Apparently an average lifter with 2 years experience can expect to gain 2.5kg over 12 weeks, working out about 10.5 a year. Let’s say first year of newbie games has a 1.5x multiplier and the following year 1.25 this works out to 15.75kg and 13kg respectively. So altogether a lifter with average genetics can expect to gain about 50 kg of lean mass over 4 years according to this video…This is what elite genetics that are also hyper-responders to PEDs blasting all the gear they can expect and even that is generous.
I said 1-2 years lifting experience and 2-2.5kg - in fairness, you have chosen both upper limits. Also in fairness, my assumptions might be wrong, but at least the actual data is right. So if people who had been lifting for an average of 4 years, 3x per week, gained 1kg in 12 weeks training 3x per week (and 30% were women), what do you think actually IS possible for a 25 year old male with 1-2 years lifting experience training 5x per week? One of my mistakes was probably equating 1kg in 8 weeks to 1.5kg in 12 weeks, since it's probably not linear. So an early assumption may have thrown off my end result a bit, but I still think for the most part each of my specific assumptions are there or thereabouts. But if you disagree with any of them specifically, let me know which and what you would say instead.
@@JoeDelaneyy Firstly, I appreciate you taking the time and actually read through and reply to what I've said. I think even if you take the lower bands of what you've estimated then you're still looking at approx. 35 kg of lean mass over 4 years which is still a massive overestimate. Not many people have the ability to go from 70kg to 105kg through lean mass in 4 years, and certainly not anyone close to average genetics. I do agree that you can't extrapolate data from studies, especially since you've only used a few, and even they have a pretty limited sample size. But I think the main issue is that the studies used DXA scans which are notoriously inaccurate in terms of body composition measurements and will overestimate in most cases. For example, if the participants have become carb loaded with the addition of generally drinking more water the DXA scan interprets all this new liquid mass as 'lean mass'. Obviously this initial water weight gain diminishes very quickly and this weight gain continue over past the 8 week period which produces a massive overestimate anyway but especially when you extrapolate this data longer than the 8 weeks as you have done. This is only one inaccuracy of a DXA scan. I think in terms of estimating how much can be gained, you're better off using anecdotal evidence from experienced coaches (still inaccurate) as we just don't have studies that have accurately measured this over a large enough sample size - especially when the equipment to measure body composition even somewhat accurately doesn't exist. You know from your own experience that you haven't coached many natural clients that will have packed on 35kg in a 4 year time period without a big chunk of that being fat. I can throw out figures but I have no actual way of knowing what can be gained, no one does. If I had to take a guess an lifter with 1 years experience would be looking at 3-5kg given they had been eating and training well in the year prior. Through your own experience rather than study interpretation, what would you realistically estimate?
Awesome video! Shouldn't water weight being taken into the equation? I am pretty sure you will hold more water by lifting weights. If you weigh people before they start lifting and after/during this might cause greater FFBM gain.
Let's assume that you gain 5 kg in the first 12 weeks (newbie lifter with average genetics), and are 'only' able to gain 2.5 kg every 12 weeks after that (equivalent to lifters with 2 years of experience). That's 35 kg of lean muscle mass after 3 years, and that even assumes that your gain rate drops straight from newbie levels to 'average genetics with 2 years of training'-levels after the first 12 weeks. 35 kg is absurd.
That also assumes your rate of muscle gain doesn't decrease at all after that first drop for the entire 3 years. I accept, it's a lot. Which of the assumptions I made (on top of the actual data) do you disagree with? Happy to be wrong, just interested to see.
@@JoeDelaneyy as a natural you should expect to gain no more than 2lbs of muscle a month, them guys you said who gained 8kg in 12 weeks must be on gear lol
@@JoeDelaneyy I disagree with the statement that a lifter with 2 years of experience can gain 2.5 kg in 12 weeks. If you look at the study you referenced, the average bench press 1RM was roughly 80 kg. In other words, this study was practically done on newbies (even though they had 4 years of training experience).
Hi Joe love your content it’s in the god tier of RUclips fitness videos. I have a question in regards to the newbie muscle mass rate of weight gain. So in previous videos you have outlined that on a lean bulk you should aim to put on about 1% of your body weight per month. I’m 6 foot 3 about 156lbs and 19 years old so at 1% weight gain per month I should be putting on about 1.5lbs this month. Over 12 weeks that’s 4.5 lbs ( in perfect conditions) so how can a newbie lifter put on 4-5kg of muscle mass= 8.8-11lbs if they are only gaining around 1% of their body weight per month. It doesn’t really make sense to me I’m hoping you can explain it. Is it something to do with muscle mass not being a linear form of gaining weight? Are these people trying to put on more than 1% of their weight per month? And last question should the rate of weight gain increase as you put on more weight as 1% of your body weight is inherently a greater number than it was last month (eg. If I weight 150 on month 1 and gain 10 pounds that month should I now aim to gain 1.6 pounds on month 2 I’m aware that’s unrealistic it’s just to make what I’m saying easier to understand) Thank you🙏
Bro if we look at the chart at 10:20, we see the avg total mass is 80kg, but lean mass is only 55 kg which leaves 25kg as pure fat, and 25/80 is just over 0.3, how are they training as much as they say and still have a 30% body fat percentage?
@@adelfhipster3936 60% of us is water. Lean body mass is your full weight minus the fat weight that you carry, and that is shown by your body fat percentage.
@@adelfhipster3936 Not 100%, however, if everyone is doing the same test, and these individuals did, the results will be relative to each other, which we can use as a benchmark.
@@MrOrthodox13 perhaps, although Ive seen people with very differenf bodyfat levels taking the same test and getting results that vary by a big margin with no correlation to anything. I agree, its the best we've got so we find a way to work with it. I just don't trust these things.
Had a couple of mates at uni with mad genetics aswell, basically ripped/huge AF, no gear and almost no effort Also there is obviously a lot of genetic variation around the world, Pacific islanders with far higher proportions of fast twitch muscle fibre, strongman dissproportionate amount of central Europeans.. some of it is cultural, but some of it is genetic (doesn't mean there can't be exceptions)
I've been "lifting" (touched weights) for roughly 8 years (16-24) but I never really worked on my nutrition I've always not really eaten properly. Is that level of experience detrimental or am I likely still capable of above average gains if I finally (and am currently) begin bulking properly (eating enough to way to puke)? My "first" bulk I gained like 5kg overall weight and from my perspective almost no noticable increase in body fat, although I was very skinny so I likely did but I just look better with the fluff I think.
The experience levels like 'beginner' 'intermediate' or even 'advanced' refer to how quickly you make those adaptations generally. If you have been training for 8 years (solid training) you'd most likely be an advanced lifter. However if you haven't taken it seriously and went to the gym on and off, you still might be considered a 'beginner' or an 'early intermediate'. Not saying you have done this though, it's just an example. All depends how quickly you make those gains and there's only one way to know, ensure your training, sleep, recovery and nutrition are on point and go on from there.
I'm not sure I should have watched this lol, I have the pressure of feeling like I got anything RIGHT with my genetics bro, I'm 5ft 7" so not ideal, and not v attractive to begin with so I'd hope that at least I can put on some muscle you know, I just need a win... at this point I want to bulk but I'm already like 18% bodyfat so very quickly I'll look so fat and I get married next May.
I mean, if 2 of 56 people gained 7kg and 7.5kg respectively (actually given as "fat free and bone-free mass") in the study, what do you think would be possible assuming the best possible genetics and training/nutrition protocols? It must be more than 7.5 kg for sure (unless by chance that study included the person with the best genetics to ever live) - so the question is just how much more? Maybe 9.5kg is too much, but I'm talking about the absolute maximum anyone could ever achieve assuming the best genetics/training/nutrition/recovery etc.
Any tips to overcome a major plateau? Been doing this s**t for 7+ years. Always training 3-5 times a week. I feel I can eat what I want won’t gain much just get a little bloated and I can cut quite fast. Im always in between 76-79kg. Also have protein side effects very quickly when exceeding 150g per day (e.g. pimples). Hate being on a bulk and stuff but not sure what to do anymore. Sleep is not an issue. Not sure what to do anymore to gain some substantial size. Any recommendations?
Question- i used to train every single day and would go to the gym 5 days a week and go to the pull up park on the weekends, i got realllly good at body weight workouts and ended up at around 9st 8lbs, i had an injury and basically stopped training, when i stopped id been training just over a year, i could bench 70kg and do 20+ pull ups, im 5'6 and my body fat was pretty low, recently after 3 years not training i dieted down to 13% body fat then started a bulk and in just over 45 days i gained 20 lbs, my body fat slightly went up to 15.5%, i also started taking creatine, but yeah heres my question, do people who are untrained when they come back get a new set of newbie gains, i went from 143 lbs to 160+ recently, in like 2 months, is that breakdown gunna be like 5lbs water weight, 8lbs fat and like 4-5lbs of muscle gain?
I'm 34 an I'm about to start MAPS anabolic training programme. I've been lifting in a Defecit for the past 6 months as I was overweight. I'm ready to bulk up a bit now but the programme only has you working out 3x a week an I feel like I should do more. Has Joe or anyone tried the programme or anything similar?
Follow the program, the MindPump guys answered this question several times, I know that you want to do more, but if you want good results follow it. Perhaps do some mobility work and/or trigger sessions on the other days.
1kg in 8 months of LEAN mass for a 3-4 years serious lifter with average genetics? Nah Joe this is taking it too far... So 12 kg first year and 6kg each other year, that is 36 kg of LEAN MASS for 5 years. This would take anyone above 25 ffmi and you know it's impossible for natural lifters.
But keep in mind that although the 18 year old might have higher test levels the 30 year old who has trained for 15 years and currently has lower test levels will have more muscle mass and bigger lifts than the 18 year old high test guy. So if test levels drop past 30 how does it explain that the average 30-40 year old is overall bigger than an 18 year old with high test.
For sure, most people couldn't do it. The average for that study (in the best performing group - that drank milk) was around 4kg. They were beginners jumping straight onto pretty good training protocols also. I don't think I've ever gained even 4kg in 12 weeks (muscle)
Is it really that different training 4 days per week vs 3days? I'm assuming if you're doing 4 days Upper Lower, your volume is gonna be lower than someones whos doing 3 Full body workouts? I'm just trying to understand
I think training 4 vs 3 times a week would make quite a difference. But it depends how long your workouts can be and how much volume you can squeeze into one workout. Even if you can train for a long time (like 1.5+ hours) each session, there is some research that points to an upper limit of sets per muscle group per workout (about 12) that are 'productive' (which is why people tend to advise against body part splits, because they exceed that). Either way 4 is better than 3. How much better depends on a lot of factors. It's so hard to really nail down and solid watertight statements when it comes to lifting/gaining muscle.
@@JoeDelaneyy i don’t know where this was proven, but what did they use? A deca scan? 10lbs of pure muscle excluding water, fat, etc. Would represent someone with good genetics. Gaining 7.5kg in 12 weeks would amount to appx. 30+ kg in a year. Who da fuq can gain that much pure lean mass that fast? Absolutely no one
I have a genetic muscle wasting condition lol, how good are my genetics for gains 😅 So please don't judge when u see me pressing out some shitty bench weights, effectively have no scapular muscles
Yo people - thought this might be an interesting one, although mildly depressing for me looking at what's possible for a newbie. Might lose all my gains just so I can make them again. Obviously as mentioned I'm a Black-Friday-whore and all my links/codes are in the video description. Some solid sales so check-em out by all means. TY friends. xxx
Edit: some people disagree with my assumptions, which is fine. I might look at this video in a week and disagree with myself. If you're one of them, let me know what you think is reasonable (based on the actual data points plus some assumptions). If we have a person gaining 7.5kg in 12 weeks - what do YOU think would be possible in absolutely ideal conditions with top level genetics? Genuinely interested to hear/discuss.
Obviously take the studies with a pinch of salt as they weren't designed specifically to look at muscle gain, and then take my assumptions with a larger pinch of salt. Maybe I should have been more clear about how much of this is guesswork.
Also, what's possible over 12 weeks might not necessarily be possible over 52. So even if a person can gain x over 12 weeks, the chances of them repeating that every 12 weeks in the real world is slim. Holidays, injuries, work/family commitments, stress etc etc all get in the way. I don't think I have ever been anywhere near 'optimal' for a whole year - probably never even a whole 12 weeks.
The laid back way of talking combined with the extensive break down of scientific research is a mad and meditational combo, my man. Love it
Moderately fast if you watch joey d vids x
Genetics is such a fascinating topic. Some guys take 5 years to bench 2 plates yet others can do it in like 3 months. Some naturals never get to 16inch arms yet others can do it within a year with the same training and conditions.
Funny you said this, I aimed to get 2 plates before Christmas starting in the end of august, I got it mid way through October, my friends who started at same time as me have been stuck on the same weights. It’s crazy how much genetics matter. I also train harder than then though in my opinion
Some crazy data - that one study that saw people making over 4x the gains of others blew my mind. Imagine how heartbreaking it would be if your training partner was over 4x'ing your results hahaha. I would stop training with that person and probably end the friendship.
@@JoeDelaneyy XDDD
Yeah, took me 3ish months to bench 90kg at 67kg BW. On the other hand you got people who still can't do 1 plate after 6 months while weighing a fair bit more. Glad I got the long end of the stick.
I've been going the gym consistently with a decent diet for the best part of 6-7 years and still haven't benched 2 plates.
Education + consistency = phenomenal gains
True in every single walk of life
Joe Delaney is my hero
Started training this year properly at 48. Definitely a disadvantage, but it’s all about the journey. Been on fat loss for most of the year, muscle building starts in 2022. Your vids are great Joe.
Get some
Why wait? Having fat is good for building muscle
Super happy to hear you're getting into it. Hope you have great success. Keep going man!
thought of gettin on trt?
By this logic you’d gain 79lbs/36kg of muscle in your first two years of training and that’s using the lowest possible numbers you’ve given and halving the rate of muscle gain each year, by the third year you’d have gained 40kg of muscle mass meaning a 55kg man could go up to 95kg of muscle over a 3 year period. Can anyone explain? Am I being dumb? These numbers seem way way too high even on the lower end
More Plates more Dats needs to react to this video cuz its quite...special
So chilled I had to put the fire on.
Editing on point bro!
For the longest time I thought my genetics were bad but I realized my nutrition was the biggest issue like I wasn't eating enough ever to help me recover after my workouts once I upped it I started getting mad gains. In a year I blew tf up without getting fat my friends thought I was doing steroids lol
I’m 47 been lifting since the early 90s and 5ft 7” tall. Decent genetics and only started TRT under Dr’s guidance recently. Making gains but I was built before. Age stalled everything and got tested for test levels and was eligible for TRT so train 4 times a week, eat 3500 calories with 200 grams of protein and sleep for about 10 hours per day 👊🏻👊🏻👊🏻
what kind of life do you have, that you can sleep 10hours?
Any side effects of TRT?
@@jekabsd A good one, it seems.
THE ultimate question! 🧐
Great one bro ! Love the vibe and the quality 🙌🏼
It's the first video you up that i honestly disagree or just don't like(but i'll hit the like button anyway). We have no data on the weight of the participants prior to the study, can't quite believe on the lean muscle mass gained and will have to assume they were on "gera". 3 months to win 8kg of muscle it's insane. 8kg of mass? Fat included? Sure for a big guy.
Maybe how muscle fibers get shredded and how long they take to repair, rebuild and grow would be a good support to this video.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time over and over to make your awesome videos.
These comments are good, I think being skeptical is good we need discourse in the fitness industry not gospel.
Yeah, the assumptions in this video are bs. 8 Kg in 12 weeks on average xdddddddd Did Joe smoke some weed prior to this video or what
Very good points. Also, arbitrarily adding 1kg to account for a potentially better diet (just because not strictly tracked) and other protocols is lazy; we cannot assume linear increases at already such high numbers (7.5kg), maybe logarithmic at best if you're going to blindly account for stuff like that. Anyway... just goes to show how little is known (understandably) about this shit.
@@r34ct4 I don't think giving educated guesses is "lazy"
He didn’t say 8kg on average in 12 weeks - that was for genetic outliers in fairly ideal conditions. I can well believe the figures. I’m 39, nothing special genetically, have exercised all my life but never dedicated it to hypertrophy, but having put my mind to it I’ve gained 5kg of lean mass in 6 months, and that’s with a desk job and a family to work around, so see no reason why someone a lot younger, in ‘ideal conditions’, couldn’t gain a lot more….
When you're in your late 30's and suddenly start to go hard af to build those small gains before you're on the way down 😂 🇬🇧 💯
you got this man
Just saved me 6 quid on a bulk order and gave me good motivation to just keep crackin on. Cheers Joey
2 uploads in 2 days yes lad
Man, this is classic example of overthinking for me. The more I know, the more confused I get. My man Joe says I could ideally gain 5kg of muscle as a newbie in 12 weeks and then there's coach Greg saying I'll be lucky to gain 2kg of muscle in the whole year as a newbie. I guess he tries to lower your expectations so you're not disappointed because he knows that most people don't gain muscle in ideal conditions
Greg doesn't say that if you're a noobie, he says likely around 10 pounds in first year which is 4.5kg, still much less ill give you that
I could have overestimated, but I have only gone from 4kg (actual study data) to 5kg assuming some improvements in training protocols etc. So I don't think it's that far of a reach. That being said, the 4kg group was the best performing group, not the study average overall, and 56 isn't a huge sample.
@@cormacdonnelly5015 the 4kg is actual data so I think even 4.5kg for a newbie is quite low IF (emphasis on if) we assume they have consistently good training/nutrition.
greg never said this, just go back to his video back in 2019, where he poste dthe possible amount of muscle gained in 1st year(it says, 8 to 12lbs of lean contractile tissue)
@@guerilla0926 that's encouraging in that case then. But as mentioned in this video, consistency in all parameters is key.
You’re awesome Joe!
Hey I usually don’t comment on RUclips video but I really really like the way you implement ads/sponsorships? They flow really well and seem to focus more on selling it to the people that are actually interested.
Much advice, much muscle
Love a good joey d vid 😍
6-10 yrs depending on your genetics and IF you do everything perfectly from the start and are using Joe as a reference.
Going back to full training and nutrition on Monday for the first time since Covid lockdown hit UK in 2020. Lost everything I ever gained since then. Hoping the mass comes back quick! Sad times 😭
Definitely learned a bunch about how to muscle growth works in this one!
with this video you just learned bullshit
The thumbnail has me dying rn lmaoooo
Great video mate
Nice vlog have a great Christmas and happy new year you and mag’s. Enjoy
This guys vids are laid out like a first degree dissertation but somehow not boring
Joe da Goat
Sick video man, I lifted for two months before the pandemic, and I'm back at it, two months into my training now even tho I gained a lot of fat before lifting again, so I've been "maingaining" because I don't want to be in a big surplus and get fat... but I don't want to waste my best year of gains so tbh I'll probably try to bulk and not cut in like 10 moths, I get married next May tho so I might need to change plans, but this makes me aware of how important it is to get as much as you can right at first.
Regards
Watch the video from renaissance periodization on newbie gains they’ll always be waiting for you.
@@zacbrach thanks man I’ll look into that, have a good day
The numbers for the amount of muscle you can gain in a year are well off. Most people who have been lifting for 2 years and do everything perfect but don’t have amazing genetics cannot gain over 17 pounds of solid muscle tissue a year. Maybe on steroids but not natty
Thank you very much for all that super valious information, and I love your accent, where are you from in the UK?
This dude is so much smarter than he looks
Great video bro
Sick lad
A very good video. Seriously.
Buddy, great research, thank you.
Take the research, and the assumptions on top of it, with a pinch of salt. End of the day, just try and see what happens ha!
Joe my guy, you have a great outlook on life - why we making a 13min. video about hypotheticals? Math is on point though.
Just found your channel, Joe. Treasure trove of info and great guidance, can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge. Awesome stuff! ;)
did anyone else go into the gym assuming they have elite level genetics
Lmao is that rob lipsett in the chat messages on screen 😂 😂
I was literally just wondering this after watching a transformation video.
Take the data in this video with a small pinch of salt (studies not set up to measure muscle gain), then take my assumptions with a bigger pinch of salt.
Good info fluffbundy!
eeh i'm just dissin ya ;) enjoy the holidays mate
Lets go Joe!
It takes a life time, so if you haven't started yet, you better get going!
My favourite fitness channel on RUclips but this is a massive overestimate of what can be expected and will leave a lot of lifters disappointed. Apparently an average lifter with 2 years experience can expect to gain 2.5kg over 12 weeks, working out about 10.5 a year. Let’s say first year of newbie games has a 1.5x multiplier and the following year 1.25 this works out to 15.75kg and 13kg respectively. So altogether a lifter with average genetics can expect to gain about 50 kg of lean mass over 4 years according to this video…This is what elite genetics that are also hyper-responders to PEDs blasting all the gear they can expect and even that is generous.
I said 1-2 years lifting experience and 2-2.5kg - in fairness, you have chosen both upper limits. Also in fairness, my assumptions might be wrong, but at least the actual data is right. So if people who had been lifting for an average of 4 years, 3x per week, gained 1kg in 12 weeks training 3x per week (and 30% were women), what do you think actually IS possible for a 25 year old male with 1-2 years lifting experience training 5x per week?
One of my mistakes was probably equating 1kg in 8 weeks to 1.5kg in 12 weeks, since it's probably not linear. So an early assumption may have thrown off my end result a bit, but I still think for the most part each of my specific assumptions are there or thereabouts. But if you disagree with any of them specifically, let me know which and what you would say instead.
@@JoeDelaneyy Firstly, I appreciate you taking the time and actually read through and reply to what I've said.
I think even if you take the lower bands of what you've estimated then you're still looking at approx. 35 kg of lean mass over 4 years which is still a massive overestimate. Not many people have the ability to go from 70kg to 105kg through lean mass in 4 years, and certainly not anyone close to average genetics.
I do agree that you can't extrapolate data from studies, especially since you've only used a few, and even they have a pretty limited sample size. But I think the main issue is that the studies used DXA scans which are notoriously inaccurate in terms of body composition measurements and will overestimate in most cases. For example, if the participants have become carb loaded with the addition of generally drinking more water the DXA scan interprets all this new liquid mass as 'lean mass'. Obviously this initial water weight gain diminishes very quickly and this weight gain continue over past the 8 week period which produces a massive overestimate anyway but especially when you extrapolate this data longer than the 8 weeks as you have done. This is only one inaccuracy of a DXA scan.
I think in terms of estimating how much can be gained, you're better off using anecdotal evidence from experienced coaches (still inaccurate) as we just don't have studies that have accurately measured this over a large enough sample size - especially when the equipment to measure body composition even somewhat accurately doesn't exist. You know from your own experience that you haven't coached many natural clients that will have packed on 35kg in a 4 year time period without a big chunk of that being fat. I can throw out figures but I have no actual way of knowing what can be gained, no one does. If I had to take a guess an lifter with 1 years experience would be looking at 3-5kg given they had been eating and training well in the year prior. Through your own experience rather than study interpretation, what would you realistically estimate?
“Shenanigans”
Awesome video! Shouldn't water weight being taken into the equation? I am pretty sure you will hold more water by lifting weights. If you weigh people before they start lifting and after/during this might cause greater FFBM gain.
Whens the next cooking with joey D
Wow what a great video
Doest post in 3 weeks then we get 2 in 3 days, damn Joe
Let's assume that you gain 5 kg in the first 12 weeks (newbie lifter with average genetics), and are 'only' able to gain 2.5 kg every 12 weeks after that (equivalent to lifters with 2 years of experience). That's 35 kg of lean muscle mass after 3 years, and that even assumes that your gain rate drops straight from newbie levels to 'average genetics with 2 years of training'-levels after the first 12 weeks. 35 kg is absurd.
That also assumes your rate of muscle gain doesn't decrease at all after that first drop for the entire 3 years. I accept, it's a lot. Which of the assumptions I made (on top of the actual data) do you disagree with? Happy to be wrong, just interested to see.
@@JoeDelaneyy as a natural you should expect to gain no more than 2lbs of muscle a month, them guys you said who gained 8kg in 12 weeks must be on gear lol
@@JoeDelaneyy I disagree with the statement that a lifter with 2 years of experience can gain 2.5 kg in 12 weeks. If you look at the study you referenced, the average bench press 1RM was roughly 80 kg. In other words, this study was practically done on newbies (even though they had 4 years of training experience).
Hi Joe love your content it’s in the god tier of RUclips fitness videos. I have a question in regards to the newbie muscle mass rate of weight gain.
So in previous videos you have outlined that on a lean bulk you should aim to put on about 1% of your body weight per month. I’m 6 foot 3 about 156lbs and 19 years old so at 1% weight gain per month I should be putting on about 1.5lbs this month. Over 12 weeks that’s 4.5 lbs ( in perfect conditions) so how can a newbie lifter put on 4-5kg of muscle mass= 8.8-11lbs if they are only gaining around 1% of their body weight per month. It doesn’t really make sense to me I’m hoping you can explain it. Is it something to do with muscle mass not being a linear form of gaining weight? Are these people trying to put on more than 1% of their weight per month? And last question should the rate of weight gain increase as you put on more weight as 1% of your body weight is inherently a greater number than it was last month (eg. If I weight 150 on month 1 and gain 10 pounds that month should I now aim to gain 1.6 pounds on month 2 I’m aware that’s unrealistic it’s just to make what I’m saying easier to understand)
Thank you🙏
Bro if we look at the chart at 10:20, we see the avg total mass is 80kg, but lean mass is only 55 kg which leaves 25kg as pure fat, and 25/80 is just over 0.3, how are they training as much as they say and still have a 30% body fat percentage?
what about bone, organs and water. Just alone, we hold around 6-7 kg of water in our system.
@@adelfhipster3936 60% of us is water. Lean body mass is your full weight minus the fat weight that you carry, and that is shown by your body fat percentage.
@@MrOrthodox13 I understand, there is no correct way of measuring body fat and lean mass in the body though.
@@adelfhipster3936 Not 100%, however, if everyone is doing the same test, and these individuals did, the results will be relative to each other, which we can use as a benchmark.
@@MrOrthodox13 perhaps, although Ive seen people with very differenf bodyfat levels taking the same test and getting results that vary by a big margin with no correlation to anything. I agree, its the best we've got so we find a way to work with it. I just don't trust these things.
Had a couple of mates at uni with mad genetics aswell, basically ripped/huge AF, no gear and almost no effort
Also there is obviously a lot of genetic variation around the world, Pacific islanders with far higher proportions of fast twitch muscle fibre, strongman dissproportionate amount of central Europeans.. some of it is cultural, but some of it is genetic (doesn't mean there can't be exceptions)
Great videos
Perhaps not 10kg of pure muscle tissue in 12 weeks that's insane! Even with PEDs but 10kg of fat free mass yeah possible
I've been "lifting" (touched weights) for roughly 8 years (16-24) but I never really worked on my nutrition I've always not really eaten properly. Is that level of experience detrimental or am I likely still capable of above average gains if I finally (and am currently) begin bulking properly (eating enough to way to puke)? My "first" bulk I gained like 5kg overall weight and from my perspective almost no noticable increase in body fat, although I was very skinny so I likely did but I just look better with the fluff I think.
The experience levels like 'beginner' 'intermediate' or even 'advanced' refer to how quickly you make those adaptations generally. If you have been training for 8 years (solid training) you'd most likely be an advanced lifter. However if you haven't taken it seriously and went to the gym on and off, you still might be considered a 'beginner' or an 'early intermediate'. Not saying you have done this though, it's just an example. All depends how quickly you make those gains and there's only one way to know, ensure your training, sleep, recovery and nutrition are on point and go on from there.
why are the two pics on the thumbnail the same picture
really good video
I'm not sure I should have watched this lol, I have the pressure of feeling like I got anything RIGHT with my genetics bro, I'm 5ft 7" so not ideal, and not v attractive to begin with so I'd hope that at least I can put on some muscle you know, I just need a win... at this point I want to bulk but I'm already like 18% bodyfat so very quickly I'll look so fat and I get married next May.
amazing video as per usual Joe!
that potato dish looked delicious
There is no way that a newbie can gain 1kg of muscle per week. Not even close to that.
I mean, if 2 of 56 people gained 7kg and 7.5kg respectively (actually given as "fat free and bone-free mass") in the study, what do you think would be possible assuming the best possible genetics and training/nutrition protocols? It must be more than 7.5 kg for sure (unless by chance that study included the person with the best genetics to ever live) - so the question is just how much more? Maybe 9.5kg is too much, but I'm talking about the absolute maximum anyone could ever achieve assuming the best genetics/training/nutrition/recovery etc.
Keep up 💪💪💪💪💪
Those numbers sound insane to me 😋
Emphasis on 'ideal conditions' for sure.
Dumb question if anyone seems this: what sort of things (other than height) are an indication as to how good your genetics are?
Any tips to overcome a major plateau? Been doing this s**t for 7+ years. Always training 3-5 times a week. I feel I can eat what I want won’t gain much just get a little bloated and I can cut quite fast. Im always in between 76-79kg. Also have protein side effects very quickly when exceeding 150g per day (e.g. pimples). Hate being on a bulk and stuff but not sure what to do anymore. Sleep is not an issue. Not sure what to do anymore to gain some substantial size. Any recommendations?
5x5
Question- i used to train every single day and would go to the gym 5 days a week and go to the pull up park on the weekends, i got realllly good at body weight workouts and ended up at around 9st 8lbs, i had an injury and basically stopped training, when i stopped id been training just over a year, i could bench 70kg and do 20+ pull ups, im 5'6 and my body fat was pretty low, recently after 3 years not training i dieted down to 13% body fat then started a bulk and in just over 45 days i gained 20 lbs, my body fat slightly went up to 15.5%, i also started taking creatine, but yeah heres my question, do people who are untrained when they come back get a new set of newbie gains, i went from 143 lbs to 160+ recently, in like 2 months, is that breakdown gunna be like 5lbs water weight, 8lbs fat and like 4-5lbs of muscle gain?
It's called muscle memory. Basically if you had muscle before and lost it, you're going to gain it back much faster than it took to get originally.
Will the app also be on android?
Joe has a Grindr account
+20% in lean muscle mass every time you drop a like on a joey d video must also be accounted for
I'm 34 an I'm about to start MAPS anabolic training programme. I've been lifting in a Defecit for the past 6 months as I was overweight. I'm ready to bulk up a bit now but the programme only has you working out 3x a week an I feel like I should do more. Has Joe or anyone tried the programme or anything similar?
Follow the program, the MindPump guys answered this question several times, I know that you want to do more, but if you want good results follow it.
Perhaps do some mobility work and/or trigger sessions on the other days.
😂😂😂Lil nips big nips😂😂😂 this thumbnail is ridiculous.
1kg in 8 months of LEAN mass for a 3-4 years serious lifter with average genetics?
Nah Joe this is taking it too far...
So 12 kg first year and 6kg each other year, that is 36 kg of LEAN MASS for 5 years. This would take anyone above 25 ffmi and you know it's impossible for natural lifters.
I started in July at 74 kg and now carry 80. Had premium training and good nutrition advice.
the 1kg in 8 weeks is an actual data point from the research quoted/linked.
Oh no, I’m over 35 years old!
hey joe
But keep in mind that although the 18 year old might have higher test levels the 30 year old who has trained for 15 years and currently has lower test levels will have more muscle mass and bigger lifts than the 18 year old high test guy. So if test levels drop past 30 how does it explain that the average 30-40 year old is overall bigger than an 18 year old with high test.
Well because for one the difference in test from 18 to 30 is pretty much irrelevant and the 30 year old has trained for much longer.
The wall seem a bit warped on your thumbnail 🤔
What the hell.. It’d be a struggle to gain 7 kg total body weight in 12 weeks let alone 7kg of lean mass
Exactly
For sure, most people couldn't do it. The average for that study (in the best performing group - that drank milk) was around 4kg. They were beginners jumping straight onto pretty good training protocols also. I don't think I've ever gained even 4kg in 12 weeks (muscle)
Shenanigans.
when you mentioned a 34 Yr old kinda felt personal 🤣 so I'll take offence .
Is it really that different training 4 days per week vs 3days? I'm assuming if you're doing 4 days Upper Lower, your volume is gonna be lower than someones whos doing 3 Full body workouts? I'm just trying to understand
I think training 4 vs 3 times a week would make quite a difference. But it depends how long your workouts can be and how much volume you can squeeze into one workout. Even if you can train for a long time (like 1.5+ hours) each session, there is some research that points to an upper limit of sets per muscle group per workout (about 12) that are 'productive' (which is why people tend to advise against body part splits, because they exceed that). Either way 4 is better than 3. How much better depends on a lot of factors. It's so hard to really nail down and solid watertight statements when it comes to lifting/gaining muscle.
vest so low cut it looks like a poncho
44 pounds of muscle mass in a year for the average person? Isn’t all the science like 20-25 is really good in a year?
❤️❤️❤️❤️
Getting fashion tips of Darren gee?
Did I miss the part where you said to take hgh or trt? Just be honest it’s obvious
Well, what did I expect as a short, small, hard gainer? Not getting depressed by what average people could achieve? :(
Is it just me, or does his lower back/glutes come off the seat when he’s on the leg press?
It's not just you
I didn't come here to get called short yo wtf
Does anyone know the music in the background?
Yusei - Wish I'd Stayed
@@JoeDelaneyy 👍
7.5kg in 3 months is pure delusion. How much of that was actual muscle like 2-3kg maybe?
5kg in 12 weeks? Are you serious? More like 4kg in 1 year
9.5-10kg of muscle in 12 weeks is not possible😂 that is levels beyond Chris bumstead and mr olympians
If 7.5kg is definitely possible (because it has been observed), what do you think is possible, in ideal conditions with Bumstead-like genetics?
@@JoeDelaneyy i don’t know where this was proven, but what did they use? A deca scan? 10lbs of pure muscle excluding water, fat, etc. Would represent someone with good genetics. Gaining 7.5kg in 12 weeks would amount to appx. 30+ kg in a year. Who da fuq can gain that much pure lean mass that fast? Absolutely no one
I have a genetic muscle wasting condition lol, how good are my genetics for gains 😅
So please don't judge when u see me pressing out some shitty bench weights, effectively have no scapular muscles
Just get some perfect genes and you will be fine.