Why Belgium Is So Divided: The Dutch And French Culture Split
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
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Belgium is a unique country in Europe. While most countries speak their own language, Belgium is actually divided mostly by Dutch and French (with a smidge of German thrown in for good measure). But while some other European countries share a language divide, only Belgium seems to have a continuing issues around it. Here's why Belgium is so divided and how it got that way in the first place.
Stock footage is acquired from www.storyblocks.com. 
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To say Flemish isn't quite Dutch is pretty misleading, it's like saying Americans don't quite speak English. Both Dutch from the Netherlands and from Belgium are completely mutually intelligible, it's just a difference in accent and some different words while spoken, just like British English and American English, and no difference at all in the written language.
Correct…Like Portuguese and “Brazilian”…its the same language. So is it with Spanish in Latin America and in Spain…People who say the opposite are simply ignorant of facts.
But in the Netherlands when we have Flemish language programs on TV they are sub-titled in Dutch
@@mbontekoe3358 Dat helpt me als Brusselaar ook wanneer West-Vlamingen of Limburgers spreken.
@@mbontekoe3358 If a person from my region of the Netherlands (the Achterhoek), is speaking on national tv, they also put subs below it, so I don't see your point
@@mbontekoe3358 It is because the accent is very strong in certain regions, Belgians need subtitles for those as well hahaha
I am a full Belgian, living and raised in Flanders. The problem I experienced is that most Flemish people learn French in school but Wallonians don't speak Dutch. This frustrates many Flemish people, because we always feel like French is the superior language although Flanders is richer and 60% of Belgians speak Dutch.
Rivalități ,inutile.Totuși suntem în secolul 21!Ce zici bro.
Walloon people transitioned from Walloon to French the language of the elite while in the North they unified the different flemish regional languages into ABN and it took over French language in the Flemish elite too. Today English is dominant as the second language in both North and South of the country at least for the young generation.
Your 60% statement is inaccurate has it is forbidden to have data about primary spoken language. Based on elections results around Brussels people living in Vlaams Brabant with the Belgian nationality are sometimes French speaking about 75% in Linkebeek or a third in Vilvoorde e.g.
Nou, dat is precies zoals ik het ook ken. De Walen weigeren gewoon Vlaams te spreken. Of Nederlands, net wat je wilt. En het gekke is dat ik als Nederlander me daar ook aan erger. Het is een soort van Waalse arrogantie.
Gelukkig werken Vlaanderen en Nederland over het algemeen erg goed samen. Samenvoegen zie ik echter niet zo zitten. Daarvoor zijn de verschillen te groot, maar meer harmonisatie en samenwerking juich ik wel toe. Dat zou beide lage landen gewoon erg ten goede komen.
Indeed , but to be honest nederlands cursus wasn't that great. It lacked practical aspect
Only one small mistake, during the reign of Willem the first Belgium didn’t had the german speaking parts. It was given to Belgium after WW1
There were some Luxemburger speakers around Arlon and even German speakers around Baelen, neighbour of Eupen on the Belgian side before 1914
Letzeburgisch is seen as a German dialect. Also, don't forget that Limburg was part of the German 'Bund (the language people) till 1849 !!! William didn't recognize it as a language but.... you can't understand it!
Neither had the Netherlands Limburg, it went back in 1839 as a part of the Treaty of London. Belgium had a huge tail between 1830 and 1839.
@@dutchreagan3676 From 1839 to 1866, Limburg belonged to the German Confederation as a duchy, with the Dutch king in personal union. The inhabitants, mostly Catholics, probably sympathized more with a connection to Belgium, but were able to come to terms with the German Confederation. When this federation was dissolved in 1866, Otto von Bismarck insisted that no foreign monarchs be included in the ensuing North German Confederation. Therefore, Limburg left the German state again.
@@wolsch3435 Thx. Oddly enough, the Limburg dialect comes from Nieder-Frankisch; it's not a 'Holland' dialect. The Dutch themselves can't really understand it; let alone speak it. (It's a tonal language) Most Limburgers speak pretty good German even before going to school. And some of the traditions like Karneval with the Prins andTanz-Marietjor Schützenfest are pure German.
Switzerland is also divided into three linguistically areas. We have the French speaking Swiss, German speaking Swiss and the Italian speaking Swiss folks :)
Don't forget the Romansh speakers
@@carver3147 oh yes definitely also the Romansh speaking people too. :)
@@zacnewzealand Honestly Switzerland should be a lesson for all of Europe in regards to how multilingual these countries are, yet they still live one.
@@ChristopherSobieniak 100% i totally agree with you. We should co-exist and live together harmoniously even if we are all different in terms of language or religion etc. We don't need division. We need to live together peacefully by every means. 🙂🙏
@@zacnewzealand I feel this is also what being in the EU means as well.
When I met someone from Belgium, I asked “Oh, the Dutch half or the French half?”. He was impressed that I knew about the divide.
As a Belgian, I salute you :)
Imagine he would have been from the 1% German part :D
When i was living abroad and asked the same question, the person just said to me in Flemish "I can hear from your accent that you are Dutch" 🤷🏻♂️
@@greetagneessens7517 Ta gueule
"Only the Belgians can say." Indeed. When I lived in a dormitory I had Belgians across from me. When I asked, "Why are you a country?" they seemed insulted and didn't explain. Being from Canada, I'm very familiar with the "drunk history-like" development of an unlikely country. But had Atlantic Canada ("Acadia") remained French-speaking, the French half eventually would've become an independent state, and English Canada.... who knows?
I have a professor who’s from Belgium and explained this to our class, and I thought this was really cool to learn about!
Oh that's so cool! What subject do they teach?
I think you missed the Dutch language Union treaty. In it are Belgium, the Netherlands and Surinam. They evaluate the Dutch language every ten years and make changes to it. It is highly regulated to make sure that Dutch in Flanders, the Netherlands and Surinam is exactly the same in grammar and writing. These are one language. They only sound slightly different, sometimes wildly different. But in writing, there is one language.
Suriname*
@@michaelveldhuizen9622 I looked it up, and you are right. As of 1978 the English name was changed from Surinam, to Suriname. But it is still Surinam airways, strangely enough. I had my education before 1978, so I was not aware of this.
They are not "one language". As someone who has learnt both (first Dutch, and then realizing that it was not the same as Flemish at all and relearning the language), Dutch and Flemish can be quite distinct. To say "you are", people say "gij zijt" in Flemish, but "jij bent" in Dutch. Afaik, the language union also does not accept commonly used Flemish words, it seems like the Dutch are pretty dominant and don't accept commonly used Flemish words, even though they accept anglicisms, so it's not much of a "union".
@@sophieedel6324 I can guarantee you that there really is a union.
Dutch and Flemish people can have perfect conversations if they don't use dialects, but I guess the same happens in other countries. True, it's a small region, but there have been so many occupations and changing borders; in fact, it's quite impressive that we still understand each other. By the way, I'm Flemish (from West Flanders) and I never use "gij zijt". I understand dialect but I don't speak it.
I am Dutch and I wouldn’t say Flemish is a dialect of Dutch. That makes it sound like it’s like Afrikaans. It’s just mainstream Dutch with an accent. It’s 100% mutually intelligible
Flemish has all the characteristics a language needs to be recognized as a seperate language.
One Flemish isn't the other Flemish... lots of differences within the different regions, and lots of differences in how much the actual dialects are still spoken.
the region I'm from usually still speaks the local dialect, which often has a bit different grammar and vocabulary, but it's also the region with the best-known dialect. Even people from different provinces have problems understanding us, and iirc, Unesco recognises it as a regional language. Other regions, like Antwerp, with whom I'd expect the Netherlands to have the most interaction with, don't speak their dialect as strongly, and it wasn't all that different to begin with.
"Flemish" indeed isn't a single dialect/language distinct from Dutch, it's a patchwork of dialects, some of which can be considered distinct. Which often are the main identifications people use. People don't consider themselves "Flemish", They'll consider themselves "West-Flemish", "Antwerpian", "Onion(Aalst), etc.
@@dirkgonthier101 This is completely incorrect. There is no language called Flemish. The official language of Flanders is Dutch.
@@woutwout8398 That's the 'official' version. Yet Flemish has its own vocabulary (which is different than Dutch vocabulary), it's own grammar (which is different than Dutch) and its own ways of saying things things (which is different than Dutch). With other words, Flemish has all the characteristics to be recognized as a seperate language if the Flemings decide that this would be the way forward. So far, we don't decide that. But we could. It is an option that remains open, should the Flemings decide that.
@@dirkgonthier101 Following your logic, Austrian is its own language as well, despite being just German with a few unique words and pronunciations.
Some mistakes:
2:12 the Reform church was and is not widespread in the southern provinces of Brabant and Limburg
2:12 the eastern German speaking municipalities were annexed after WWI
2:12 Luxemburg used to have more territory now in Belgium
2:29 that's not the national assembly. That's a hotel in Scheveningen
3:08 Zeeuws-Vlaanderen is light blue for some reason
3:08 Luxemburg is not completely German speaking. Parts of it are more dominated by French
making Zeeuws-Vlaanderen light blue would be quite accurate. they do speak more Flemish Dutch then the rest of us even just across the Schelde
@@sirBrouwer I have never been there. Interesting. I served under a Zeeuws-Vlaamse General in the Dutch MOD. He spoke perfect Dutch, only with a slight southern accent.
@@ronaldderooij1774 o it is very strong the more south you go in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen.
it might also be that a lot of people living there are actual Belgian people also.
we speak Luxembourgish in Luxembourg
My first trip to Belgium, was in Ghent. I arrived very late at night, so I checked into my hotel. It was delightful to wake up and go for a stroll. Such a fascinating city.
Antwerp and Namur are my two recommendations; Gent, Brussel, Brugge, overrated.
Namur no. All french Belgian cities are run down are not worth visiting. As soon as you cross border to Dutch speaking and small German speaking area, everything looks beter.
@@Edodod gent is underrated antwerp is overrated
@@invalidsheep Gent, bedoelt ge mischien Nieuw Turkije?
@@Edodod liever nieuw Turkije Dan de grooste drugs haven van Europa
1) During the Roman period, a long road connecting the German town Cologne (Köln) with the French Boulogne was build by the Romans for trade and militairy purposes. For one reason or anothter, the Gaul tribes living south of that road became more influenced by the Romans (Gallo-Romans) than those in the North, which were "German" tribes. That road used to run more or less where the current linguistic dividing line runs
2) If you wonder why a part of Belgium speaks German: those were territories added to Belgium after WW 1, because Belgium resistes so bravely against the German occupiers. Belgium almost completely got occupied, but there still was an occupied part in the West of Belgium that never got occupied. The Germans stole plenty of things from the occupied parts, including a large number of churchbells. Lots of people were executed, many lost their homes, businesses etc. After the war, Belgium was hoping to be rewarded for its resistance, and the wildest proposals were made to that effect by Belgian politicians. In the end, the Kingdom only received small parts of Germany. Just like the inhabitants of Gibraltar want to remain with GB, the German parts of Belgium apparantly prefer to remain with Belgium than to be added to Germany again. And Germany doesn't seem interested to get these lost parts back.
3) I'm a perfect example of the complexity of Belgium: my mom was a Walloon - hence my French first name - while my dad is Flemish - hence my Flemish family name. Almost no Flemish people want to be (re)united with the Netherlands: no longer for religious reasons, but it is a very different mentality. Not better or worse, just different.
Wij snappen Belgische humor ook niet, en jullie de onze niet
All this shitty its result of french invasion very sad, a tragedy the history of belgium. 💔💔💔💔
1) is the other way around: the road didn't become the border, the border became the road.
You see, the Germanic tribes settled in flat lands apt for the types of agriculture they were best at, and stopped at the hills. The Gallic tribes preferred those hilly areas for security. The Romans built their roads as straight as possible while avoiding slopes. Et voilá, a more or less straight road on flat land right next to hillier areas.
After the start of WwI about some two to three million Belgians fled to the Netherlands. After some time many returned, but not all. The Germans made the first iron curtain between the two countries. After the war, the Belgian government was so greatfull for the hospitality that they tried to annex southern Netherlands. Nothing came of it.
"there still was an occupied part in the West of Belgium that never got occupied" so how does that work?
As described by Napoleon “Antwerp is a pistol pointed at the heart of England” makes sense then as to why London created the country after his defeat.
By creating Belgium London single-handedly took power away from France and The Netherlands their 2 closest neighbors and rivals, Removed a large flaw in there defense-Antwerp, and created a friendly nation towards them which allows them a foothold on the European continent. Truly a brilliant tactical move on the part of London.
Great Britain has maintained a special relation with Belgium. GB had an agreement with Belgium, that when invaded GB would come to the aid of Belgium. In 1914, this treaty was instrumental to gain popular political support to declare war on Germany. In turn, the arrival of the British Expeditionary Force was just in time to save the French Army from defeat. So Belgium sacrificed itself in order to save France indirectly.
The other important reason why GB declared war on Germany was the prospect of French Channel and Atlantic ports in German hands. A great threat to the Royal Navy.
Great Britain didn't "create" Belgium. It has always been semi independant and autonomous. UK's role in this is so overstated for some unknown reason. Belgium thanks its existence much more to France than to the UK, since France helped to push the Dutch out
@@mardiffv.8775 In 1914 ,95% of the western front was held by the French ,in 1918 ,it still was 80% .
No the real thing the British did to damage Germany was the blockade of Germany (By the navy)
@@plumebrise4801 Yes, all your arguments are true. But I am talking about the opening weeks of the war in 1914. Then the French had problems with stemming the German advance into France. I remember a French general being angry at British Fieldmarshall French for being late with his British Army.
Also putting all the taxis of Paris into military service, to transfer French troop ASAP to the front at the Marne is evidence that France was in dire straits.
Yes, it is true that later, when the war turned into trench warfare. The French Army held their lines very well.
But if that was the only plan the French wouldn't have intervened in 1831 against the Dutch.
You are describing the policy which lead to the United Kingdom of the Netherlands, not the creation of Belgium
You forgot to mention that two regions in South Netherlands, Noord Brabant and Limburg are also mainly Catholic
And Flemish (Dutch) is also spoken by old people in France , in the far North ( Lille, Dunkerque)
Three regions, not two. Zeelandic Flanders is also majority catholic apart from the center part which is the start of the protestant bible belt.
He also forgot that the largest religion today in NL is Catholism.
Twente is also catholic.
Also, the south african old flemish language.
As a french-belgian, Flemish in northern france even with the oldest people is nearly dead, really.
French
English
Arabic
Spanish are probably the 4 most spoken languages in cities like Lille/Dunkerque/Valenciennes...
I was born in Belgium and moved to The Netherlands at 4-5 years old. More than 20 years later, people from either country still quickly notice that I come from [the other country], even though it's just a 25-30 minute drive and the same language.
Nice video. As a Dutch, i live in the German speaking part of Belgium. My German is very good but my French is not. I was snd am following French courses now. The houses, gardens and roads look much better in this region then in the Francophone region. This, i think, because of their German mentality. I asked some people, but none of them want to a part of Germany again. When the supermarket lady talks French to me, here in Ostbelgien, i talk German back to her. I have not noticed any bad thinking/ talking about the other parts of Belgium. I work with a guy from Antwerp but he lives in this area now and we speak Dutch to each other. He Flemish and i ABN from the Kennemerland region. Regards from Ostbelgien.
Don't learn french, you not need it. You are in German speaking area and best friends with Flanders.
French have low mentality. Dutch and German have better. As soon as you are in frenchspeaking Wallonia you see it. Nederland, Luxemburg, Ostbelgien and Flanders much better.
lol "ABN" wie gebruikt die benaming nu nog. Alsof Amsterdam beschaafder is dan Vlaanderen.
@@Edodod Het gaat daarbij om het Nederlands zonder accent of een dialect.
@@Edodod A staat niet eens voor Amsterdam
Thank you for the post.
We spent a week traveling in Belgium last year. We were very surprised by the animosity and disdain people from the two principal regions expressed towards the others in our conversations with them. In general, people were courteous to us (foreigners) and the cities and countryside were peaceful. We had a good time and would go back. But that animosity aspect was a surprise.
I guess you met the wrong people. At social media it's also full of Belgians like that. But I'm Belgian and the most people I know in real they don't care really about the different languages or regions. The most people in Belgium speak also more as one language. And people have second houses in each others regions. It's just divided in the extremes their minds.
@@justhanan_official do you live on a border or centrally/in a city. The cultural differences are barely noticeable in the latter because it’s all just a mix anyways but if you live on the border of two cultures your experience changes completely - there is the place where cultures clash hardest and where differences are truly noticeable. I say it as a Dutchman on the border with Belgium; no-one cares in Rotterdam (because they actually know nothing about it having never experienced it) but we used to have entire village brawls between North-Brabanders and guys from Flanders. It tends to leave more of an impression actually living there instead of travelling through, you see. Painting all of them as extremists is kind of naive to the reality of living at a cultural border.
@@Thomas-xd4cx sounds like the US-Mexico border
@@Thomas-xd4cx I live right on the border between Vlanderen and Wallonie, and i feel exactly like that guy. Nobody care i real life.
Map is wrong, Brussels is not red. It is only around 50% French speaking. 15 to 20 % Dutch speaking and rest is immigrant languages, English- and German speaking.
good report
Excellent exposition, thank you!
Thank you for your video
Grew up in Maastricht the Netherlands and my grandmother who was from the French speaking part of Belgium (living in Maastricht) spoke French a lot with her children even though she was fluent in Dutch. Reason for this was that French was considered an intellectual language and most Dutch did not speak it.
I spent 3 weeks, in Belgium, a few years back. It was interesting. One thing that confused me, at first, is I was following road signs to somewhere (can't remember) and, suddenly, they disappeared. Then I realised that the name of the town changed because I was in Flanders. I, also, made the mistake of speaking French to a sales clerk, in Bruge. She just scowled at me until I switched to English.
You probably speak about the french city of Lille wich is called Rijsel in Flemish
@@mathieuvanaudenrode7546 Possibly, it has been a while.
@@mathieuvanaudenrode7546 Most large town change name when you cross the language barrier, I you drive from Waver to Antwerp, you follow the boards listing Anvers while in Wallonia, then you enter Flanders and it's Antwepen, then you enter the Brussels Capitol Region, and everything's listed bilingually, after which you enter Flanders again and it's Antwerpen 'till you reach your destination, this was quite confusing for some non-Belgian friends I have.
Kek
One of the better videos on the topic! Greetings from Antwerp 🇧🇪
Great video ! Thank you Geoff :)
I come from India, a land far away from Belgium and Europe alike. However, when it comes to linguistic diversity we are basically Belgium but much larger and having much greater linguistic divisions. Based on some comments, people say that there is an inequality in Belgium that the Flemish learn French but the French don't reciprocate. A somewhat similar situation is in India, where majority of Southern Indians speak Hindi (a language not native to them) while Northern Indians (to whom Hindi is native) don't speak any South Indian language like Tamil or Kannada.
In such a case, a third language is perhaps the easiest way out, as it doesn't hurt anyone's egoes and solves the purpose of communication. English is anyways popular across Europe today, so I think Belgium can think about making English its lingua franca for cross-region communication. It could further help Belgians communicate with each other, and also help Belgium develop great relations with the Anglosphere (US, UK, Canada, Australia etc) and even secure jobs there in future in case you wish to move from Belgium.
That cannot work as too many cultural difference between Belgian and english. Belgian has more Latine sensibilities and are not english ethnic nor cultural which speaks for the whole continent who have no infatuation with the english.
submitting to anglophone world dominance is not a solution my indian friend. it's the death of culture. Walloon people need to just learn Dutch as a serious language in school. Dutch people have 5 or 6 languages in school and they don't get pissy about it either. So unless Walloon people want to claim that they are just dumber than most other europeans they can put in a little more effort as well.
As for India, though: to be fair English competence is much greater in Southern India, or more precisely in Dravidian-language areas. Although Northerners do study English in advanced education, the language of instruction is typically Hindi or a local Indo-European language, whereas the language of instruction is more typically English.
yeah, it's probably similar in some ways! For example, I'm born in the Flemish part but my mom came from Italy and settled in the French part of Belgium. my father was born in the Dutch part but they ended up living together near Brussels which is mixed. My family who still lives in the French part almost knows no Dutch, even my mom after so many years isn't fluent at all. But when you go look at the Flemish part, most of my friends can speak either basic French or know enough to be able to go through life without much trouble. English is already our "3rd or 4th language" but that's mostly the Dutch part tho, the French always have more trouble with English since it's harder to learn t them. Dutch sounds similar to English in some ways. So imo just keeping it as it is now is fine ngl
@@Linkknnkillnkju You don't need to be infatuated nor have cultural similarities to English to learn their language. Belgians are MUCH closer to Englishmen than Indians would ever be. Still; English makes a linguistically diverse country like India run smoothly and bridges our communication gaps when our mother tongues are too different and not intelligible. I think English (or any other third language) could help Belgium a lot in this regard.
I lived in Belgium in the early 90s, in Ormeignies a small town just outside Ath. Nice country, friendly people.
He has the cheesiest background ever in his parent’s basement
Only one of the worst countries in Europe.
@Chemya The worst country of Europe regarding its financial situation, according to the UN. A country that has always abused the Flemish population for paying for every sick, twisted and destructive idea the Frencophones ever had. And we're getting sick and tired of it.
Belgium isn't a democracy (because there isn't a Belgian demos), it rules over Flanders without the support of any Flemish majority. The Frencophones have a labour participation of barely 60%, Brussels has a labour participation of 58% and the unemployment in the Frencophone parts of Belgium remain sky-rocketing, no matter how many billions we waste to keep them afloat (16 billions a year, since prehistoric times). That's why the two Flemish parties who support Flemish independence are about to gain a majority in the Flemish parliament by the next elections in 2024, according to every poll. Let's hope the Flemings finally can free themselves of the dead weight of the Frencophones and build a society according to Flemish values and supported by Flemish majorities..
@@JohnnyRep-hz5qh Let me guess, he worked at SHAPE, near Mons.
yeah sure thats why thousands are coming to Belgium for a better life and futur? D°°khead@@dirkgonthier101
Good video. Could you make one about how the lowlands were formed (Holland, seventeen provinces, United Provinces, Belgium, Luxemburg, etc). May have to start with the Frankish Kingdoms (Charlesmagne)
I met a young man who said that despite living in the Flemish part that at home his family always speaks French because they are aristocrats.
They are, quite mockingly and despisely, called "Franskiljoenen" - The little Frenchies.
In the second part of the 20th century (seventies I guess, A flemish radicalization period), it tended to be close to "traitor" so they now keep a low profile.
Decided in recent years, the flemish region Day commemorates the victory over the French in a medieval battle (Golden Spurs Battle"). It was really aimed to hurt the french speaking population feeling, a way of revenge over history.
Nobody cares much, but that choice is quite explicit about the darkside of Belgium.
Walloons dont have a Day, just more parties in september 😊.
The fact that Wallonia can always relate to France ( language) makes that it doesnt really has that need such idenditarian affirmation.
Flemish, on the other side are quite alone in the world, and therefore unique.
Don't forget Happart in the seventies and his "lèse-majesté".
It’s my firm belief that, if any major changes happen to Europe in the next decade or so, they’ll almost certainly be in Belgium.
Has the border of Europe drifted West or do you not think major changes are happening in Ukraine?
@@carver3147 Last I checked the border between Europe and Asia is in the Urals. As it has been. For a long time.
@@carver3147 The border of Europe has not drifted west because Europe doesn't have a border. Europe is a geographical term for the north western part of Eurasia. Its Eastern boundary is the Ural mountains which cannot drift west, or any other direction.
The German speaking parts of Belgium were stolen from Germany after the First World War and should be returned to Germany.
@@ivandinsmore6217 I was being facetious
Thank you for explaining Belgium's cultural evolution.
It's filled with inaccuracies. Read my lengthy comment somewhere else in this thread for a rectification;
Well done. Greetings from Brussels, Belgium
Also very handy for the non Belgian/Dutch was to have the harbours of Antwerp and Rotterdam in two instead of one country (negotiations). The province (as a whole) of Limburg was Belgian from 1830 to 1839. The German state bond want a divide and the river Maas became an arbitrary border there to be a Belgian and Dutch Limburg as of 1839. In terms of religious culture (Catholic) this is still seen and felt to this day.
I guess you can say that Belgium waffles between unity and division.
People have been hanged for lesser crimes than that pun!!! ;-)
🤣🤣🤣
Belgium is united every four years if they compete in the World Cup.
i wonder what language do players speak in the dressing rooms
The national ensemble in The Hague, showing a picture of the ‘Kurhaus’ in Scheveningen…This is a hotel. 😂 You should show a picture of the ‘Binnenhof’.
Actually government seated in Brussels as well, so the point was not even valid
I know someone who used to live in Belgium. She speaks Dutch. She’s a great mom
Don't forget as Belgian : Together we are strong (Eendracht maakt macht / L'union fait la force)
I'm from Belgium. For an American, you did surprisingly well. Lot's of nuance in this video. Basicly, we're two countries in one shell: other language, other political views, other media (not many people know what's going on "on the other side". We can't even vote for the politicians "from the other side". In my opinion, the main reason people talk about the split is economical and political: other views ("debts are not good - northern Europe - Flanders" vs. "debt didn't hurt anyone - future generations will pay - Southern Europe - Wallonia". Someday the bubble will burst, but no one can predict when.
Wallonia will join to France.
@@livmarlin4259 Then they should join Francophone Switzerland instead. That's whom they seem to sound like (and more distantly like Québécois) rather than the French.
@@alkriman4182 lmao when I went to America someone told me the same thing that my French sounds like Québécois. Even tho my mom's French is almost indistinguishable from the French language since she msotly lived in Wallonia. Guess me being born in the Flemish part made that happen. Kinda like so many accents and languages get mixed that by the end even tho we're super close to France it can still sound like something different
I'm from Liège and i think that 2024 elections results will show us where we go. If NVA + VB got the majority, I pray that walloons politicians will react resposibly. We don't have to be a part of a fake country just to be "belgians". Hope we will join France instead(only in the case of a split). Walloons needs to wake up.
@@livmarlin4259 No walloon want to join France Liv :)
There is a lot of confusion between French-speaking and Wallonia,
Wallonia was the economic engine but never politically dominated the country, the French-speaking elite was also Flemish for a large part at the time and most of the ministers etc during the industrial area were either Flemish or from Brussels.
Totally right.
North West France was also flemish speaking until it was no longer allowed by the French government
@@tonym4130 North West France and the entirety of Belgium and the Nederlands (except frisian) spoke gallo-romance languages before franconian languages have been imposed by the frankish elites in those area...
@carthkaras6449 what time period did this happen?
@@tonym4130 The time period you take into account depends on your affinities and the level of hypocrisy towards the hystory you allow yourself to have.
hey man, you did us dirty by only mentioning the 196 days in 2007. We also didn't have a government for 494 days after the 2019 elections and no federal government for 589 days after the 2010 elections, making us the very proud world record holders for 'going the longest without a central government.'
Clear and accurate description of the Belgian compexity. Well done Geoff !
The people are not divided , the politicians are, for there own profit.
I am an expatriate living in Belgium and here is really interesting. I live in the Dutch area and I work 30 minutes from home in the French area. Even the maximum speed in the roads changes, from one side to the other. I came to Belgium speaking English and French and know I am learning Dutch for a better integration in the community where I live.
@@bfc3057 . I think immigrant is a permanent condition and at this moment, I don't know if I will stay here definitively, because this is not completely my decision. Anyway, let's see what happens.
A note regarding the religious part. Catholic relegion was also spread through the southern part of The Netherlands, up to the Maas river.
This filled a large gap in my knowledge of Belgium and the Low Countries. Many thanks!
I listen to the History of English podcast, which discusses the similarities between Flemish and the nascent English language.
There's still a huge gap left. This video is a misrepresentation of how and when the Low Countries got split.
cool, i'm currently researching the medieval flemish migration to the british isles, mostly wales and scotland
I believe it was Friesian (spoken in the North of the Netherlands) that has the strongest similarities to old English
@Raphael … Aha, I stand corrected - thanks!
The fact flemish and modern english have so many similarities is because of both migration and the fact during the reign of Stephen, England was more or less defended by flemish mercenaries with one of them having been the count /earl of Kent for a time
I think if Brussels was more of an EU/UN official headquarters, then it make sense to be independent from Flanders and Wallonia. In a Sci-Fi way, Brussels would be where Earth Branches of a Space Police or whatever interplanetary relation services that could be needed would be handled-but as is this is favoritism to Belgium
brussels is a historically Belgian city tho, as a belgian i don't want to give it up, it's ours
@@Thanadeez globalists don’t care lol
@@Thomas-xd4cx globalists are gay
Map is wrong, Brussels is not red. It is only around 50% French speaking. 15 to 20 % Dutch speaking and rest is immigrant languages, English- and German speaking.
@@BAn-hy3ts bring that number of Flemish speaker down 5 to 10% is more accurate, majority is actively French speaking, a lot of immigrants come from countries colonized by French speaking countries so they do speak French themselves as a second language. Then we have internationals who come mostly from the European Union and work in these EU institutions speaking English and their own mother tongue, sometimes they can add either French or Flemish later on depending on the social circle they encounter
As a japanese, it's very strange that almost every belgian here comment in English, not Dutch or French…. I now understand why some belgians think learnning Dutch or French is useless. You guys don't have problem in communication without the two languages.
While most people watching this video (in English) have a good grasp of the English language, this does not reflect the situation on the ground.
I find Belgium a fascinating country. The language issue is a matter of mutual respect. I love it to go round the country trying to adapt. Watching out for a baker, you end up having a conversation like that"Excuseer kan u mij zeggen waar hier een bakkerij is? - Hier rechtdoor en de tweete straat rechts" and a bit further down south: Excusez moi, ou est- ce qu'il y a une boulangerie ici? - Ici tout droit et la deuxième rue á gauche." And once you are in the German speaking part you end up Entschuldigung, wissen Sie wo ich hier eine Bäckerei finde? - Hier geradeaus und die zweite Strasse rechts". Das macht das ganze doch sympathisch, mignon, leuk. Whatever you may want to call it.
joat. Mo het zou geestiger zijn als frans makkelijker was om te leren. Groeten uit omgeving ieper.
Vraag eens in Molenbeek waar een bakker is... Kans dat je arabisch hoort is groter dan Nederlands. Als je al antwoord terug krijgt en geen bedreiging o.i.d. Leuk land België (niet dus).
@@DepoverS Idd, Frans is zoooo naaiend.
@@yt-nx1qm loser
@@yt-nx1qm true that so fucking true
I understand you cannot cover all, but the most important event is in fact the Dutch Revolt that started in 1568. At first all the provinces united against Spain but in 1579 they separated in northern provinces (Union of Utrecht) and southern provinces (Union of Arras). The southern provinces (mostly current Wallonia and also French Flanders) united with Spain while the northern provinces continued the revolt.
Most people in Brussels speak arabic.
Small mistake at 02:13; The Dutch (the country) provinces of Limburg and Noord-Brabant are also catholic but on the map they are blue. During the march to Brussels (Tiendaagse Veldtocht 1831) to reclaim Belgium they were added to the Netherlands.
Pretty cool but only one little mistake. Here in flanders we speak the two languages (mostly even four). In Wallonia only a few speak the both languages. Kind of sad.
Pretty good this. Glad to hear some of the historical facts here that are too often ignored, especially about why Belgium left the Netherlands in 1830.
But it is the centuries before that that are rather interesting and revealing: the eastern part was the principality of Liege, and about half of that is now in the Flemish region, and the other half in Wallonia. The duchy of Brabant is also a northern part and a southern part with different language. And even the county of Flanders is historically not a country with only one language spoken. Basically there is more historical and cultural connection between eastern Flanders and eastern Wallonia than there is between eastern Flanders and western Flanders. And even the language is different because most people speak a dialect anyway, and West Flemish is very different from Limburgs.
In my opinion the divide is a classic example of culture wars invented by politicians, and in this particular case there is also that promise made by some politicians that sounds suspiciously similar to what the brexiteers promised: if Flanders is independent people pay less taxes.
Belgium has many beautiful and interesting cities. Bruges, Ostend, Brussels and my favourite place Antwerp.
I have fond memories of Belgium.
All are in Flanders. Walloon cities are like average eastern Europe cities.
@@yt-nx1qm dinant? Most walloons cities became ugly with industrial revolution ( Liege and charleroi as prime examples) but its also one of the reason belgium is so rich
@@yt-nx1qm dinant, Durbuy or namur are not bad too
@@yt-nx1qm just if you go in Charleroi or liege area
missing Ghent...
Thank you. Very truthful representation of reality.
There seems to be quite a sharp geographic dividing line between the two linguistic areas so what I would like to know is if there are some streets in Belgium where one side of the street is French-speaking and the other side is Flemish-speaking
I live at the border between the regions Flanders and wallonia. I can tell you that in my street the first few houses there are flemish people and the further you go in the streets. You have houses from walloons
In history there’s often a “centralistic way of thinking” from the French trying to dominate other languages. Not only in Belgium, also in France itself minority languages like Basque, Italian in the south, German in the north east and Dutch in the north west were pushed away. Brussels for instance was in majority a Dutch speaking city only a century ago. Saying that the Flemish kind of let the French taking over (as the “upper class” were rich industrials from the Wallon region back then), the influx from colonies and southern Europeans in the Brussels region was the dominant factor after WW2. Not discriminating here, just saying the facts.
True , as a flamish person .. just annax Brussel again , our country is already so devided and then you got them making it more complicated. Doesn't make any sense in the first place.
The french speaking upper class at the time was flemish of from Brussels though.
You forgot a divide: half Christians/white, and half non-integrated Muslims from Africa.
Bold statement at the beginning, can't forget about Switzerland!
If you speak French there's a great tv show that aired in the early 2010s (available on RUclips, but the video is pretty low quality) called "Moi, Belgique" (Me, Belgium)
Although I’m not Belgian myself, I have lived here for nearly 40 years while working for the EU. I have to say this video provides a pretty good overview of the situation. One little weakness is at 6:30 with the reference to both regions having ‘a fair amount of autonomy’. In fact, although a monarchy, Belgium is also a federal state with almost all functions other than foreign relations, defence and national taxation devolved to the regions. This has very much reduced the pressure for formal partition and moved it to the political extremes, especially in Flanders.
Fortunately, the polls tell us that the two parties, that support Flemish independence, are about to gain the political majority in Flanders by the elections of 2024. The Flemish Movement has NEVER been so popular in Flanders. This points to exactly the opposite of what you claim.
@@dirkgonthier101 But are all the people voting for Vlaams Belang and N-VA supporting the independence or are they voting mainly for their other policies?
@@Nautiliam The voters of the Vlaams Belang are pro-independence. No doubt about it. Besides, the VB always had great problems with Belgium. After all, the grand parents of many VB politicians were prosecuted by Belgium after WWII and given long sentences or even executed in some cases.
This is because Belgium always had problems with the Flemish Movement, a movement that came forth out of the discrimination of Flemings after WWI. As I've told you, Dutch wasn't accepted by Belgium as an official language (despite the majority of its citizens spoke Dutch) for more than a century and the Belgian army refused to give its orders in Dutch, so most Flemings couldn't understand what they were asked to do.
In the first elections after WWI, the Flemish Movement was born. Within the Flemish Movement, always existed two directions: the moderates and the hardliners. That was so in 20-30's with Verdinaso (moderate; yet Belgium executed their leaders in the start of WWII) and VNV (hardliners). Just like it is today: the NVA represents the moderates, the VB the hardliners.
The NVA is more moderate. They are also pro-independence, but they see it happening as result of Belgium's utter failures (and the past has proven that Belgium always have known deep and utter failures), So, independence is something that happens automatically. You don't have to seek it.
But, also De Wever (chairman NVA) has stated that, if Belgium continues to govern Flanders against any Flemish majority and by exclusively left-wing parties, that he will start cooperating with the VB. Politics is politics; better being a king in half a country than being a loser in a whole country.
For the rest, they're both parties on the right wing of politics (typical for Flanders) and therefor get neglected by the Belgian level, which exists out of all Frencophone parties + the left-wing parties of Flanders. This has gone so far that in the Belgian government are seated all parties, except for the NVA and the VB (for Flanders) and the Communists (for the Frencophones). And this makes governing or creating a sound policy in Belgium completely impossible. This has began more than 30 years ago and the Flemish movement hasn't lost one election in that period. It saw its support rising from not even 5% until the majority of the Flemish voters now.
I don't know what games the Frencophones are thinking to play, but they're destroying Belgium. There already is a lot of bad blood between the peoples of Belgium. Because Belgium was never a country that welcomed both its peoples. The Frencophones invented Belgium and they did everything they could to utterly destroy the Germanic side of Belgium.
@@dirkgonthier101 Thanks for the story of the Flemish Movement, I didn't know much about it and it was instructing.
However I don't think the Francophones want to destroy Belgium or hurt Flanders, at least not the people. From my understanding the NVA and especially VB were left out of the federal government this time around because they are seen as dangerous for the country and possibly democracy (especially VB since they have [or at least had] links with neo-Nazis).
The N-VA was in the government of the last legislature (Michel I) and the MR (Liberals) were the only francophones in that government, but they didn't fare much better than any other government.
I don't think the failure of the federal governments is due to any community, but rather to the politics that are too busy fighting to try and cooperate to make things happen, independently of their language.
@@Nautiliam Well, I think differently. First of all language has, since the beginning of Belgium, always played a very dividing role in Belgium. The Flemish Movement was born because of the discrepancies between Frencophones and Flemings. And the Flemish Movement is essential if you want to understand current Belgium. They may not have written the policies of the governments since the end of WWI (although, the previous party of the Flemish Movement did), but they played an instumental role as whipping parties. The fact that we still speak Dutch todfay, is proof of that. The fact that we resisted all the efforts of Belgium to turn us into nice Frencophones too, is also proof. The fact that Flanders now is a region with competences, is proof too. The fact that currently the Flemish Movement can form a majority in Flanders ought to tell you enough. Never in its history was the Flemish Movement as strong as now. And there's nobody threatening to invade Belgium and start another war, so Belgium can't use that as an excuse to execute the leadership of the Flemish Movement. Like Belgium just loves to do whenever it can.
It's nonsence to think that the VB is dangerous for (Flemish) democracy. That they're against Belgium, is very clear and they don't make a secret of it. If one follows your logic, all far right parties are dangerous for democracy. And what do we see happening in reality? That everywhere in the EU, where far right parties have already been in power (Austria 2x, the Netherlands, Sweden, Poland and Italy) democracy has never been threatened. You're certainly delusional if you say this of the NVA. True, they're also against thje status quo of Belgium (because the status quo is detrimental for Flemish society and our financial situation). The Frencophones cost Flanders yearly 16 billion to keep afloat, for already 50 years. And they show no sign of ever adapting their society to current needs. It's very easy to build a socialist model-state and give the bill for that to another people, that doesn't share those socialistic ideals.
Yes, that's true. On the elections that brought the government of the NVA to power, the VB gained barely 5% of the votes. On the election after the NVA-government, they scored 18% of the votes and became again the second largest party of Flanders. Why the NVA took a seat in that government, I don't know. Because they didn't even try to accomplish the main items of their program and 'forgot' their election campaign completely Now the polls tell us that the VB keeps on growing and they have a real chance to become the biggest party of Flanders. With only possibilities to grow farther in the future. Cause a lot of Flemings are really fed up by Belgium.
I don't think so. The Frencophones are governing over us, against the wishes of any kind of Flemish majority (of the last 17 years, only the NVA-government had the backing of a Flemish majority) and are bringing Belgium ever closer to bankruptcy. As socialists, they can only make our public debt sky-high. Currently Belgium is financially the worst country of Europe. According to the UN, at least.
Finally, I want to say that I don't care about Belgium. Belgium has given us nothing. Except a lot of pain, misery and hardship throughout its history. The only thing that interests me is the fate of our people. The longer Belgium governs over Flanders, the worse we will be (looking at what happened during my life). And I don't want that. Many Flemings don't want that. Cause we're no fans of bankrupties, impoverishments and losing all of our economical strong points.
A small nuance: 2 dutch Southern provinces (Noord-Babant and Limburg) are also mainly Catholic. However, these provinces were also part of the United provinces (Dutch Republic), while Belgium was part of the habsburg Netherlands.
+Zeeuws Vlaanderen + Oosten van Nederland. Zelfs de Hollandse provincies hadden een belangrijke Katholieke minderheid (zie bv Godfried Bomans als Haarlemmer). Ik denk dat zelfs meer dan de helft van de bevolking Katholiek was maar dat de macht in de handen was van protestantisme (zie 'Generaliteitslanden').
My gran immigrated to South Africa from Antwerp with her family in the 1930s. In the 1990s she went to visit family in Belgium and all the older people were very nostalgic about her 1930s Flemish accent!
What does the Oregon T shirt say? 503 PDX?
That many Belgians today speak both languages is not true. Many Flemish people speak Dutch, French & English. In Wallonia, the most of the people only speak French.
The new generation is now mostly bilingual in both Brussels and wallonia not with Dutch but with English but the old generation is mostly not.
In Singapore, we impose ethnic quotas on housing so that every neighbourhood has a fair mix of Chinese, Malays and Indians
This was a case study for my Civics class in school, contrasted with Sri Lanka. Surprised to see that this is still a issue, I thought that this was all over.
When did you study and why you thought it was all over?
@@sarasamaletdin4574 I studied it in 2014. The case was a comparison between Belgium and Sri Lanka (Sinhala and Tamil ethnic conflict). And how Belgians peacefully solved the issue by dialogue (a success) while Lankan govt. sufferred through a violent insurgency (a failure).
well done Geoff ;-)
The map you've shown demonstrating the reformed and catholic divide does not represent how it actually looks like. Dutch Noord-Brabant and Limburg both are predominantly catholic.
2:23 actually the southern part of the Netherlands was and is also catholic, not Dutch reformed.
Of course !
Go back to your history and the invasion attempt from the Dutch in 1831.
Between 1829-1830 and 1831, that region was part of Belgium
for the map at 2:23 the south of the netherlands (present day north-brabant and limburg) were also catholic
I'm Flemish, and work in Brussels with about half of my direct co-workers being either Flemish or French speaking. We speak both languages mixed all the time, or Flemish with some French words, or French with some Dutch words. Quite funny. To make things complete my manager is from the Netherlands, and obviously we speak Dutch/Flemish with each other. Unless French speaking people are involved in the conversation, then we all speak English because our poor boss can't speak French. So yeah, despite many people want Flemish independence, most us get along pretty well.
He is not poor, he is the only lucky one
Thanks a lot! I like Belgium…such a strange, but lovely country!
As a Belgian I can say that this is one of the best and most accurate description of the situation.
a couple of corrections and additions:
1) While yes, the northern half of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands had some disproportionately large representation, the government founded the Eerste Kamer, aka the Senate, on request of the southern provinces to give their nobility a voice. So basically kind of like the House of Lords in the UK. The northern provinces agreed on one condition, that also people that were either great land owners, or decorated persons could be eligible for the Senate. Everyone agreed with that proposition.
2) the Dutch forces eventually managed to push back the Belgian revolutionaries and almost quelled the revolt in its entirety, but the Walloon nobility, in a last-ditch effort, requested aid from the French, who were only happy to jump in. Since the prospect of having to fight the French AGAIN after only 15 years after Napoleon didn't appeal much, the Dutch forces didn't even bother with it anymore and went home.
3) Brussels is originally a Dutch-speaking city, home to the Brabantian dialect which was the basis for 'standardised' modern Dutch in the 16th and 17th centuries. Only from 1910 onwards were the majority French-speakers.
It's always a huge problem when you describe 19th century politics on the background of a 21st century map: Borders and countries were totally different by then: Luxembourg misses it's western part, the German speaking area of Belgium only became Belgian after 1919 and the Germany on the map didn't come into existence before 1990 (at least as a unified country with the river Oder being the eastern border with Poland).
And the borders of the so-called French First Republic are also wrong, not only it was the First French Empire (Napoleon) but it also doesn't show the real borders (it include the puppet states like the Confederation of the Rhine, Spain or Italy).
A Wallonian would rather learn German, English and Spanish as the most widely spoken European languages. Dutch is limited although if it offers good consolation... learning German is somehow by default learning some Dutch. I speak German and I found Dutch easy to understand something like Spanish is to Portuguese.
Wallonia is only 3/4 of the Francophones, there is Brussels with 1.1 M Francophones and 6% of the people living in Flanders are Francophones (~400.000).
In terms of language practices it is more relevent to talk about Francophones rather than Wallonians.
Indeed and sorry to be blunt Francophones do not like the sound of Dutch and many feel repelled by it. So let's be honest that it is no about capacity but about having a rel block because French is a rather international language compared to Belgian Dutch...
honestly Belgium's always a lot of talk, from the outside we seem to be fighting between our own country but honestly, it's more so friendly banter ngl. Ultimately, it's not like flemsh people hate the Walloon part. It's just some friendly "competition" between the French and Dutch communities since both prefer their own language over the other. and it shows, since I as a Flemish guy with family in Wallonia would never wanna merge with The Netherlands. So why would we wanna split and make Belgium even smaller haha. It's mostly probably the older gen that feels like this
Yeah, the relations are friendly at best, ignoring each other at worst. It could be much much worse.
Rest assured, also in the Netherlands some 66% do not want Flanders to merge with NL. We think that it would be too costly to bring Flanders up to Dutch standards. Think about above ground and underground infrastructure, water purification, physical planning, environmental standards, flood protection, etc. This may sound like a superiority complex, but it isn't. Culturally we think that in one state the same levels should apply for the benefit of all.
8:52 a fascinating case study in what not to do
What and where is that amazing castle 🏰 at 7:35, please?
Gent, Gravensteen
@@laurentg.508 Thank you 👍 +1.
One of my girlfriends ancestries was Belgium. I not sure what region. I do remember that was a town that got burnt to the ground during world war one.
Look for "the rape of Belgium" to learn about the German invasion of 1914.
There are seven martyr cities in Belgium: Aarschot, Andennes, Dendermonde, Dinant, Leuven, Tamines and Visé.
These are places were the Germans commited war crimes against its population during the first days of the invasion.
Three of these cities were also burned down: Dendermonde, Leuven and Visé.
That should narrow it down a bit, but ... later in the war, the German advance came to a halt in the trenches of west flanders where the land was flattended during the four next years of constant bombing.
Destroying everything, the land, the woods, the farms, the villages and the cities there.
So, it is quite difficult to know what town your friend was talking about based solely on the fact that it was burnt down to the ground.
Might've been Ieper (Ypres in English) too
@@taiqidong9841 it could have been Ieper
Nicely done video but trust me on this one.. Flemish and Dutch are completely mutual intelligible. Sure, both the Dutch and the Flemish might laugh at some specific words, but in the end the difference between the two variants of the language is way smaller than for instance the difference between German and Swiss German. I like our Dutch neighbours. Just not when they play football :p
edit: You could look at it like this: the Flemish dialect continuum doesn't stop at the border. People from the northern parts of the Netherlands might have a more difficult time understanding the Flemish, than people from Brabant. And vice versa... I never seemed to understand people like Foppe de Haan
I'm from Amsterdam and I can barely understand Foppe de Haan
Some points of correction/detail:
1:35 when the Kingdom of the United Netherlands was formed in 1815 after the collapse of the French 1st Republic, the Low Countries had been divided between the independent Seven Provinces of the Netherlands in the North and the Southern Netherlands (future Belgium) occupied by Spain and Austria and sometimes France since 1576. This is why Belgium and the southern parts of the modern Netherlands that were controlled by Spain and Austria remained mostly Catholic.
3:24 in the Kingdom of the United Netherlands, the South was disproportionately targeted for forced military conscription. This, together with economics, religion, language and press freedom was one of the grievances leading to the uprising. These disproportionately southern troops being stationed in the south lead to mass desertion to the rebels-the Netherlands had trained and armed the enemy for 15 years!
There was a bid for independence before this, in 1789. It was for independence from Austria and it was the first expression of the idea of an independent “Belgium”, with an early version of the Belgian flag. It lasted only 1 year.
5:11 on the dominance of the French language. In Flanders, a collection of strong dialects of Dutch with shared features was (and is) spoken (not written). This is Flemish. In Wallonia, Walloon was spoken-a dialect of French that standard French speakers find difficult to understand. Flemish and Walloon were spoken by the working class. The Aristocracy and the industrialists in both regions, on the other hand, spoke standard French, because it was seen as a high-class language. This, together with a counter reaction against Northern Dutch by the aristocratic and bourgeois leaders of Belgian independence, is what caused standard French to dominate the country until after WW2.
5:40 The “Flamenpolitik” by the occupying Germans in WW1&2 also did much to divide the country. One of the starkest examples is that when Belgium surrendered in WW2, Flemish soldiers were mostly sent home by the Germans, while many Walloons were imprisoned. The modern far right parties in both regions find their political roots in collaboration with the occupiers.
There are many more details and nuances - but quite a good video!
we have the same problem in Canada with English and French... it seems unreasonable to expect different linguistic groups to live together.
Why only the right wing are "far right", or right "extremists"? Should we consider that the left parties are the holders of the good and truth?
Our gov structure is a federal system (just like the US, Russia, Brazil etc), with a lot of autonomy to given to the regions (Wallonia, Flanders) & municipalities (cities, gemeentes/communes).
Even if we remain without a federal governement for 500 days or more, the impact on the citizens is virtually non-existant & the institutions were not impacted by that.
Luxembourg did allready speak german AND french
I lived in Wallonia (the French speaking half of Belgium) for a year+ back in the 1980’s. Flemish was required in schools - but most kids did the bare minimum just to “pass” … and would immediately forget whatever they learned.
My understanding is that Walloon schools have finally given up, requiring students to learn English instead, with much better results, and now Walloons/Flemish communicating with one another in English.
Was there a major train collision that was caused by train employees who could not communicate with each other?
Nah... we aren't stupid you know, people that need to communicate speak the two language, like half of the belgium.
@@gameknightjek2640 "This is the third high-profile rail crash in Belgium in the past decade. In 2001, eight people were killed and 12 were injured following a head-on collision between two passenger trains east of Brussels. It is thought that language difficulties between Flemish- and French-speaking colleagues contributed to that crash." From the news report following the 2010 train crash.
@@Canuck1000 And? Dutch got 18 of them in 2010's (wikipedia), three stay a low number. There might be isolated error, but this is not a general or problematic issue.
Thinks before just speak.
@@gameknightjek2640 I did not say it was a general issue. I just just reported (accurately) what was noted at the time (that is in 2001). If you're upset, just to complain to the initial source.
Here’s from the official report: “The accident had two main causes. The first was the inexperience of the driver of the train which departed from Wavre. The train had stopped with the driver's cab past the signal, so the driver could not see that the signal was red when he departed. The other cause was the language barrier between the signalmen at the Wavre and Leuven cabins. Both French and Dutch are official languages in Belgium, and rail staff were only required to speak one.”
Since you’re having difficulties with the English language, here’s my original comment again “Was there a major train collision that was caused by train employees who could not communicate with each other?” I referred to one train accident, not the industry. I assume they now have different procedures in place by the railway company.
I'm from Finland. Is the relationship between Flemish Dutch speakers and Wallonian French speakers good? Is it normal like "Hey, we are two groups of people who speak different languages but we're all proud Belgians here!" or is the relationship more hostile?
Do both groups make fun of each other? Is there any violent conflicts between the two peoples? Do Wallonians get discriminated in Flemish majority country? Would you guys wanna separate and form 2 countries instead of one?
Nah the relation are execrable at best .
It really fluctuate depending of the people I'll say. But thinks are getting worse because of politics
There is a kind of indifference in Wallonia (French-speaking part) towards the Dutch part, while the far-right movements in Flanders use the French-speaking part as a black sheep when the situation is calm in terms of terrorism or other external threats.
I forgot to specify that when there are political problems, it is always between the Flemings and the inhabitants of Brussels and its surroundings. It hardly ever concerns Wallonia.
As a Fleming who is for an independent Flanders. I do not hate the Walloons, i often go to Wallonia. But sometimes some Flemings get frustrated by political reasons between Flanders and Wallonia. There is not that much hate and fighting overall. If Belgium splits it will be peaceful.
Some notes:
- The coal mines aren't depleted, they were just losing money at some point. There is still plenty of coal down there, but it's won so cheap in other places, it just can't compete.
- Brussels is more French leaning in speak, but if you look at the kind of French, it's quite dilluted with Germanic influences in the language. It's really a mix.
...and after commenting over on your video covering a certain notorious former colony of Belgium, here I am commenting on the home country of said colonialists! Belgium is very much my 'Geography country' on the basis that, when I was studying Geography with German as a mature, part-time undergraduate at the University of Derby in the Nineties there was a particularly memorable Transport Geography Field Trip to Brussels and Southern Belgium (the inclined plane at Ronquières and the old and new, under-construction boat lifts at Strépy-Thieu) so I've long had a bit of an affinity with this part of the world. A few months earlier, during performing the research work for my Final-Year Project, I'd had an internship with a bus company in Aachen, during which time I went on an afternoon walk in three countries, so I'd also had that encounter with Belgium and well know the fact that there is a third Belgium that is neither Flemish nor Walloon, which cannot be entirely ignored in this context.
My relationship with things Belgian goes much earlier than the aforementioned - by two decades, actually - as when I was at Belper High School, sometime in 1976, during a break in work in the school's language laboratory, I was leafing through the extensive collection of old «Paris Match» magazines that were kept in an ante-room next to the language laboratory and was confronted by the unforgettable image of the L'Innovation department store, Brussels in flames on the front cover of the 3rd June 1967 edition - a disaster with which I'd been completely unfamiliar and which has been called 'Belgium's 9/11' in some quarters. Since the 'American Fortnight' was in progress at the time there has been a lingering suspicion that the cause of the blaze was not accidental and may have been an act of protest at U.S. involvement in Vietnam, other possible flashpoints being the untidy withdrawal from the Belgian Congo and the then-nascent movement calling for more cultural recognition for the Flemish regions of the country, that had threatened terrorist activity similar to our Northern Irish 'Troubles'.
By a remarkable twist the Sleep Well hotel/hostel where we stayed during our time in Brussels was only just around the corner from the 'Inno'.
I have a presence on Flickr under the name 'The Curves Man' and there's an album of photos there from that Field Trip, if you'd like to check them out, Geoff!
I live in southern Belgium near the luxembourgish border.
I must say, for work purposes, the best thing to do for belgian here is to learn German and/or Luxembourgish (having english and french already).
But i do feel like if Belgium doesn t want to Split in the future, it needs to be totally bilingual and Walloons are the bad ones at this. Flemish mostly speak french while walloons dont speak flemish or dutch.
I am luxembourgish but was in belgium in school. Most people took german or spanish as 3rd language. English beeing the second language.
Very sad your testimony, french should be retired from Belgium to quebec, alabama and lousiana, all south of belgiuk should come back to netherlands in ther border a little part to luxembourg and Germany.
@@Hrng270 Why so ? There is nothing bad with french. The problem is that people dont learn another language, not that they speak french
Moien Wéi Gedet?
I call for the independence of the german speaking region
I also thought that the Ost Kantonen (East Cantons, the name of the German speaking region) had a wish to for independence or to rejoin Germany. But when asked in a poll, a majority wanted to stay with Wallonia. Not joining Germany or Luxemburg. The reason is the high degree of autonomy within Wallonia. The German speaking have their own government: the German Community (GC). Which is on equal to the federal government.
The GC has considerable power when it comes to forming a federal government, which is always a long, tedious proces due to the differences between the Flemish and the French speakers.
@@mardiffv.8775 I live in a French-speaking town of Eastern Belgium but next to Ostbelgien, which is the German-speaking area, also known as the East Cantons. Our German-speaking neighbors are in fact very "Belgian", generally attached to the monarchy, and they don't want to leave Wallonia. And I can confirm there is a "good neighbor" relationship between our two communities. To be honest, many people in Ostbelgien can also speak French, at least up to a certain degree.
As for the animosity between Flanders and Wallonia... it does exist but mostly in the extremes and it's part of the political circus anyway. Most ordinary , "normal" people just don't care. I've never had any serious problem when in Flanders, and there wouldn't be so many Flemish tourists in the Ardennes (where I live) if there was a real issue; this being said there are idiots everywhere that we all come across, just ignore them.
@@jfrancobelge Thank you very much for the information. Very helpful.
Last summer I visited Brugge/ Bruges on my bike. And 2 Wallonien tourist asked me something in French. So I replied in my best French that my French is limited, but when she spoke her limited English, we could get along fine. And I told her how to walk into the center.
I also for an independent united Limburg.
@@mardiffv.8775 Don't reply in French; it is Flemish land so they as Walloons should try at least some Dutch (language of 61%) and otherwise English.
Interesting video, but you forgot to mention that in Wallonia, they speak both French and their own language/dialect called Wallon. Wallon(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_language) is a regional Romance language with its own distinct characteristics and variations, and it is recognized as a regional language in Belgium.
Here in the US, we have 50 smaller countries combined into one.
Correction: In Brussels the main languages has become Maroccan in the poor parts of the city and English in the rich part of Brussels mainly formed by expats from the EU-bubble .
Dutch and French have rather become marginal languages and therefore, the claim on Brussels either from Flanders or Wallonië has become a surrealistic and unnecessary political battle.
First thing first moroccan is not a language and secondly the rich part of Brussels are mostly French speaking English is not used at all apart from the EU quarter and even there most of them speak or know some French.
as a Belgian I appreciate you trying to explain the problems plagueing Belgium in a simple and neutral way. However there are some inaccuracies and simplyfications that have to be corrected. When you speak of the flemish dialect it actually doesn't exist in the way you describe. the flemish dialect that is actually significantly different from standard Dutch is west-flemish and is only spoken in the north-western most province. even then all of the dutch dialects were very much in a gradient. therefore for example i (living in the flemish area around brussels) have an easier time undertanding someone from holland than West-Flanders, while the West flemish is supposedly the same flemish dialect as me. So the rule for standard dutch wouldn't forbid "flemish" as at the time the concept of a flanders wide dialect didn't exist yet and instead it would educate Belgians with "proper" Dutch. furthermore your avarage flemish peasent/farmer or citizen also didn't care at all as it would only affect the educated, meaning the upper classes. however the nobles and the bourgeoisie in Flanders that at the time were solidly french speaking and had therefore the same reaction as the wallonian people. so yeah your avarage flemish citizen at the time would't have cared much about this law. I hope this better illustrates the reality of the history of the languages in Belgium.
Also even in modern Belgium Flemish as a language is never used, in school we get dutch classes etc. the only time it is used is sometimes by extreme radical regionalist or to mean the West-Flemish dialect, which as stated before is the most removed dialect from standard Dutch.
"Even in modern Belgium Flemish as a language is never used". Sorry, I am Dutch so probably I am ignorant. But isn't 59% of Belgians Flemish speaking? I know about the Dutch language union, so in writing all Dutch (NL, B, Surinam) is the same. But surely Dutch must be used in Belgium at all levels.
@@ronaldderooij1774 No, there's an issue with "Flemish" which most people (including people making these kinds of video's, and even most Belgians) don't know about. Both "Flemish Dutch" (ISO language code 639-2, with about 6.500.000 proficient speakers) and the actual Flemish (ISO language code 693-3, with about 20.000 people still proficient in this one). are referred to as "Flemish". Most Belgians from the northern half speak Flemish Dutch (639-2), while Flemish (693-3) is spoken (and dying out) in the Belgian province of "West-Vlaanderen", the Dutch "Zeeuws-Vlaanderen" and the French Departement "Nord". And then there are still the expected regional dialect variations in both "Flemish Dutch" and in "Flemish". As an example: "bowl" (to put fruit in) is called a "kom" in both 'Flemish Dutch' and 'regular Dutch' (with dialect variations), but is called a "menne" in Flemish.
@@tarcandor Ah, I was a bit led astray by the OP calling West Flemish a "dialect" but instead you imply that it is not a dialect of Dutch but a (dying) language? As I said, I am ignorant about this, so thanks for the information.
@@ronaldderooij1774 You're welcome. And to add to the complexity: there's also the West-Flemish (as in the region) dialect influence on 'Flemish Dutch'. So... taking only Belgium into account: "Flemish" is a dying language spoken in a region called West-Flanders, and "West-Flemish" is one of the many dialect versions of 'Flemish Dutch'
@@tarcandor I must admit that I was born and raised in Haarlem, near Amsterdam. I have great difficulty even understanding Dutch people from the Netherlands when they live more than 80 km from my birth place... So yeah, apparently my brain is not suited for lingo flexibility.
Lesson learned: If you're a Belgian or have Belgian ancestry, trust no one not even yourself.
oh yeah lol, but the fun thing is we're probably so mixed that we're part of so many cultures
I find it a bit anusing how Belgium seems to be at an angle with a more or less straight horizontal line dividing the dutch speaking and french speaking part.
Also, there's a small dutch spesking Flemish exclave bordered to France and a french spesking Walloon exclave bordering The Netherlands.
A few clarifications on the potential partition on Belgium:
1) it is never "discussed", only called for by (mostly far right) (relatively minor) political parties in the North
2) up to now the most extreme that has been seriously considered was either increasing further the power of the federated regions (flanders/wallonia/brussels) which ultimately would mean becoming a confederation instead of a federal state
3) The german community is not involved in such talks because (appart from the fact that the talks don't really happen in the first place) such a discussion would happen in Parliament, none of which are from the eastern German cantons, and in the Senate (for confirmation if it happenned) where only 1 out 60 is from the german cantons. Currently they are already part of the Wallonia region, so if we were to split according to the current regions then it is already a done deal that would be in Wallonia
Nice video, I wish people would realise that it is actually not a big deal at all, I am a Walloon living in Brussels and Working in Flanders, the only actual difference is which language to speak with people around me and that's about it