Why Infinity Train Couldn't Redeem Simon in Book 3
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- Опубликовано: 15 ноя 2020
- Infinity Train Book 3 was the darkest installment of the Cartoon Network/HBO Max series thus far, largely due to Simon and his character arc, meeting a tragic end rather than finding redemption alongside Grace and the Apex. Why couldn't Infinity Train redeem Simon? Does it go beyond his views towards nulls, including his cruel treatment of Tuba and Hazel?
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Развлечения
"Everybody can change, but not everybody wants to." - Greg Universe
A lesson people want to ignore
"It's good that you believe in everyone, steven. Just like your mother. She had a lot more patience than the rest of us. But the truth is... not everyone deserves that patience."
-Garnet
That's also one of my favorite steven universe quotes. Yea, it is important to give others a second chance to redeem. But sadly there are some people who have so much anger and hate, that they prefer to keep hurting innocent people and stay that way instead of becoming better people. Those type of horrible unredeemable people don't deserve that second chance, and that's what makes it so sad because those kinds of people are just gonna keep wasting their lives instead of living life with kindness and happiness.
Steven, you are the spitting image of your father
@@firemiracle I loved that quote, I wish Steven took more to heart though
@@prowolf633 maybe some tea and pai sho?
Simon was redeemable, but never made that journey because he refused to change.
that piece of trash was irredeemable from the point he killed Tuba and was proud of it (and even before that). they could've spent a whole other season "redeeming" his character, but the act of killing without mercy wont go away. Im even surpriced they redeemed Grace and the Apex, since both are equally horrible (Grace is a sociopathic hypocrite and the Apex are potentially psychopathic kids)
Exactly, he was too resentful of the past to bother to do something about the present he was making others face. He thought he was justified because of what happened to him, but his past doesn't define him. He could've turned around at any point but because of his stubbornness and resentment of his attachment to authority he rejected his chances. Then he died and he isn't getting another chance.
@@MarcoCam1314 What are you talking about grace and rest of the apex were never redeemed.i mean sure they didn't end up getting killed like simon did (though at the end of the day they are just humans and will eventually die anyway)
But i wouldn't say that really counts as getting redeemed.If anything grace and the rest of the apex still got a long way to go before their actually truely redeemed.
You can only be redeemed if you promote a sense of empathy or even sympathy especially towards those you've wronged, and guess what? Simon didn't possess ANY of those traits! So no! Simon is totally irredeemable for that simple reason. Period!
He had the opportunity after opportunity to see the error of his ways, but he chose to double down and become an even worse person every single time. He's a tragic character but he's a character that completely deserved his fate.
moral of the story: not every character is gonna end up like Kevin Levin or Zuko
Sad but true
You mean zu zu ?
yeah I really thought Spinel from Steven Universe was going to have a fate like this but yeah I agree
Don't forget Dr ameil the one from kipo not the one from infinity train
Or vegeta
Gotta give credits to the show runners, I haven't seen an antagonistic not getting a 'happy ending ' this well written since azula from avatar.
Simon is pretty much the Anti-Zuko. One was one the best examples of a villain becoming a hero after realizing what he was doing was wrong. The other is one of the best examples of a villain choosing to become even worse despite having the chance to confront their wrongdoings.
Exactly
That might be about to change in the Avatar: TLA comics series, though...
Zuko taught us that anyone can be redeemed, Simon taught us that some people choose not to.
Simon tell us that some people cant deal with redemption.
Like Greg Universe once said: _"Everyone CAN change but note everyone WANTS to."_
@@diegoernestovarelaparra3820 Then there are some, who cannot forgive themselves, even if they received forgiveness from those they had wronged.
He killed a mother gorilla, so it's only natural that he had to die.
Idk, with that same logic Grace has to die to. APEX killed alot of adults and train characters. Grace was just able to change and cope with new finding quicker.
@@rollychairs That is true. Grace made an effort to change once she realized what she had done/believed is wrong. But Simon didn't.
This shit all happened because he killed Harambe smh.
Technically It was Amelia and Samanthas fault
@@rollychairs Grace should've died along Simon, changing her mind doesnt make her a good person, killing just because is fun was a thing both did and just because she feels sorry doesnt mean she doesnt deserve the same as Simon. and the kids are just as bad, being a kid isnt a free pass for murder and cruelty, so fuck them too
Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.
Thanks Iroh
How's the spirit world buddy. We miss you
I agree with your wisdom to an extent my dear Uncle, but opposites are merely the same concept but reflected. Pride being the opposite of shame is actually true to an extent because opposites again are just the mirror reflection, not the synonym.
the funniest part is this comment is right under a comment that mentions zuko in it
Thank you uncle Iroh!
As soon as murdered Tuba, I said, "there's no coming back from that".
Why? Grace murdered dozents of zeros, she even proposes of getting rid of Tuba in the first place. Yet she apaprently came back from that. I would argue it was Graces reaction to taht murder that made it impossible for Simon th ever find apositive path again. He did what he thought is the right thing, in his head, zeros are dangerous and will only cause harm to the kids. Grace has reenforced that idea for years. And suddenly "killing" a zero to protect a child is wrong? In his head, that does not make any sense and hence Graces reaction does not make sense. In his mind, you abandoned him like everyone else because she has found something more interesting to play with.
@@hawkanonymous2610 thank you
@@hawkanonymous2610 What do you mean why? it was clear that season 3 was showing two parallels from the start: we slowly start to see Grace redeemed, while we start to see Simon go deeper into the opposite. It was clear that as time went on, the writers weren't going to redeemed Simon and that he was going to end up too far gone, while Grace was finding her path to redemption. He *could* have come back from murdering Tuba, but he didn't. And that's the point.
@@crfstewarje The inital sentence I answered to was " As soon as murdered Tuba, I said, "there's no coming back from that". " and hence my question "Why?" Why is that the turning point where he could not be redeemed anymore? Why was the murder of Tuba any different then the mass murder in the first episode commited and orchistrated my Grace? The writers didnt want Simon to be redeemed, true. He virtually never even had a chance to get redeemed in my eyes. The train through him in as a sidekick to Graces redemption story so she could be redemmed, it did not care about him at all.
@@hawkanonymous2610 Because it is torture, and killing is a different thing. Once you kill, you never go back to normal life literally.
Moral of the story: redemption is always possible, but unless you trully want it, then it is never going to happen
a better moral would be: "Redemption is beyond those who are cruel and enjoy other's suffering and killing" tho it conflicts with the fact this "redemption because im sorry" bullshit with Grace ruins that message
@@MarcoCam1314 Grace wasnt really redeemed, she did the right thing but she hasnt made up for all of her actions, the point is people can still change despite what they have done
@@caderen5624 yeah agree.
@@caderen5624 good point actually, tho im still annoyed she is alive rather than dying a more deserved death
@@MarcoCam1314 because she was willing to change and become better, while Simon wasnt
What’s really sad is that in the flashback, we see that Simon’s number was a 55. The boy could have gotten off that train and been home and developed in a healthier way if he hadn’t been convinced that you needed a bigger number. It’s so sad.
The fact that Grace was the one determining factor on ruining his life, from the start to the end, is some poetic stuff.
He literally had the smallest starting number we've seen on the show aside from Jesse. Bro really lost 8 years of his life on the train when he could've learnt a lesson as simple as "learn to be more independent and rely less on others" and been back home if he knew what to do.
Honestly it's pretty strange that the train picks up kids as young as 10 and can keep them for up to 8 years with no real guidance. Like, One-One didn't even institute the "pod introduction videos" until AFTER Book 1. So many people could've been moving along the trains with absolutely no idea what to do.
@@johannliebert2870 You know, the funny thing about that is One-One(then just called One) did have instructional videos explaining everything, but when Simon got on the train it had already been hijacked by Amelia and these tapes were no longer being handed out to passengers.
@@gothamstreet6115 Min-Gi and Ryan never saw those instructional pod videos in Book 4, which was why I said they were made after Book 1 (as we see them in use in Book 2). We also see One-One making them in the webisodes in the time between Books 1 and 2. We do see the past memories VHS tapes in production in Book 4, but Min-Gi and Ryan never saw theirs.
Ming-Gi and Ryan also weren't properly alerted about their goal on the train until they met Kez. It seems like even before Amelia hijacked the train, One's method wasn't completely effective.
@@johannliebert2870 Ah, I see.
Simon treats life like a GTA game:
No real life consequences for his actions
Weird analogy but accurate
that was how he was taught to view the train, and why he never considered sparing Tuba. In his mind she was never real so no matter what she said or did it wouldn't have stopped him.
I would say that was season 2
@TotallyRandomSkunk I think he or she means, Simons thinks all of this is a game, and the inhabitants of the train are just NPCs, there are no consequences for killing computer-generated programs, so why should Simon care about them?
I feel like Owen Dennis definitely wrote Simon with the idea of subverting the concept of the "villain turned good," or "jerk with a heart of gold," out of self-awareness for how common it is in media nowadays. It is kind of funny, since normally a bad guy remaining bad is just the way things are, but we've seen it subverted so much that having someone stay bad is a pretty new thing.
True
They did the same thing sorta with Rook from Stretch Armstrong. They played with tropes that he’d get redeemed (sharing his tragic backstory, teaming up with the heroes against a greater enemy), then when the dust settles, nope, he’s back to his old tricks. The show was cancelled so he never got what he deserved.
I think what makes it work especially well is that he’s also a protagonist technically. A supporting character for the first chunk of the season with a sympathetic backstory, essentially on the same level as Jesse and Won-won. You want to see him get better. Only for that potential for change and those humble yet flawed roots to be burned to their core by his unwillingness to change. I don’t think any children’s show has ever had that kind of character (though after book 2’s MC ground a cop into a gooey paste under the wheel of a train, I think it may have stopped being a children’s show).
@@thevioletbee5879 And yet is death is horrific and brutal, you dont want him to end like that.
Homelander?
He was given two chances at redemption, he killed Tuba even though all denizens aren't the same, and tried to kill Grace after she saved his life. His numbers covering his entire body was meant to convey to the audience he was too far gone. His acts of murder were totally unwarranted and he chose them over redemption. And unfortunately, it's not Steven Universe.
He also could’ve empathized with Hazel and Tuba’s bond and listened to Samantha’s words about numbers and memories and Amelia’s words about the Conductor and the Infinity Train’s purpose.
Steven Universe is still good though, they are just diferent shows
simon's bad behavior went from bad behavior to evil behavior. personally i think this book represents that old saying "the evil you create will consume you" for simon literally and figuratively
I kinda think it's a good thing he didn't change or magically come back to life after being killed I mean I like Steven Universe but It gets very predictable when almost every single character that's an antagonist to Steven ends up changing and becoming good or how whenever a character in Steven Universe would die they would immediately be brought back to life even if it means retconning apart of the show that's so important it was the cause of the main conflict in the show in Jasper's case.
Except that Grace had killed Nulls before, so Simon didn't see the big deal about it. Grace also has more social intelligence than Simon.
Honestly, I never want Simon to be "Redeemed" because he is a character that we really needed to "See". He is a tragic character and a product of his environment. These are characters I hope to see more of. The only thing I wish the show did more with, was to really play up the whole indoctrination angle Simon went threw with Grace by having some of the kids still follow Simon's (And by extension the Apex's) ideology and not accept Grace's new stance. I wanted Grace to still have a purpose to do on the train if she's going to be there for a while, and still give Grace consequences for the things she taught Simon (And also by extension the other Apex kids). I just found it weird the Simon was the only one that got Radicalized.
Back to Simon: Simon was a great example of what happens to a character that refuses to change. So a redemption would have muddied the message a bit. and with how dark this season was, I was also hoping a long lasting consequence for what He and Grace have done.
It's weird. I absolutely hate Simon but I absolutely love his character and how he was handled. He pretty much served as the antithesis for the entire show's themes and morals. It was an interesting experiment from the writers that completely paid off, in my opinion. You aren't worthy of being redeemed if you make no effort to see the error of your ways.
Ok I get what your saying and I agree, we needed to see how bad a character could be and what would happen to that kind of character on the infinity train, but did they really have to make me love simon before breaking him down and turning him into evil simon. I just wanted my GracexSimon ship to sail, not for them to fight to the death ;-;. I'm still crying if you couldn't tell, I just finished Season 3.
He is like Darth Vader, except he went down without taking a chance before dying
i still wished they did it. because he was just a kid. he needs to take responsibility for what he did. but he was 10 when he got there and was curropted by grace. and because he admired the image she has built up he is afraid when she goes away from it. and he believes that she has changed for the worse instead of realizing she has grown. he couldnt be redeemed we wanted him to be but he couldn't. he was to hurt to change.
i wish they would have gone another way with it. but tbh it was still amazing i mean at first we feel that the way that simon looks at grace as cute at the beginning but as tthe events progress and he kills tuba he was getting creepier and creepier. like holy shit is this show awesome
Simon wasn't evil for evil sake, it was a trigger of events that made him the way he was. He could've changed like Grace but he didn't think he was the one who had a problem. Simon is apparently clinically a narcissist which makes it even harder for him to ever face his problems or reflect on his actions.
still changing wouldnt have made him less of a monster, it would be a slap on the face if he was redeemed after all he did, it is bad enough Grace got a free pass and lived even after being as cruel and evil as him, being sorry and changing heart isnt gonna erase your pass deeds, and both desrved punishment, so annoying only Simon got his and Grace didnt
@@MarcoCam1314 I agree that they don't just need to have a change of heart, they still deserve to be held accountable. Grace didn't just have a change of heart though.
When she had the opportunity to come clean and stand up for Hazel, she didn't. She called her a null instead and that caused Hazel to leave with Amelia, not willing to forgive her. Her hiding things behind Simon's back got her trapped in her mind where she really confronted herself and she took the responsibility of defeating Simon and helping the apex kids that she indoctrinated to leave the train. If she was immediately "fixed" then I feel like we would've had her leave the train but the fact she still has a lot of her number left shows she still has work to do and she's willing to do it.
Simon having a change of heart shouldn't just stop there, he also has to take responsibility for all his misdeeds. A part of taking accountability is facing your consequences in order to do better next time. I think the opportunity to grow was purposeful for Simon's character, it's just that he wasn't willing to because that's just a part of who he is.
@@sapphic.flower no matter how much work she does she is still a monster and deserves death, which is why i got angry, but is see the value of a message that change requires effort, i would prefer it be done with a less morally questionable character tho
@@MarcoCam1314 I respect your opinion but I personally think killing her as a way of justice wouldn't actually have her face any consequences. They killed Simon because he'd be too dangerous to leave alive. Her being alive and trying to reverse her actions make the most sense to me but obviously that doesn't mean you have to like her or that she deserves any sympathy.
I do think the show didn't shine a light better on ALL her misdeeds, mostly just what she's done to Hazel and indirectly Tuba. Like she's definitely killed or condoned the killing of other netizens and abused many like the spotlight netizen from the musical car. She indoctrinated many impressionable children and kept them from home to wreak havoc and made herself their leader. None of the terrible things she's done are suddenly rectified because she suddenly feels bad about it now. I think they tried fitting in too big of a character change in too little episodes. That being said, I just personally don't think killing her would fix anything or would be appropriate. She has to fix what she can.
@@sapphic.flower thats... the best answer i got in this whole comment section. Is not just blind forgiveness for her what you saying, unlike the others, i guess i have to give you credit where credit is due. Still a horrible character but i guess is fair we let her fix what she can (we can kill her after), so for now your answer makes me feel less angry with her being alive. Thank you
“Someone who has done some disgusting things but has a genuine desire to be a better person” that shit is complicated which is why Bojack Horseman is so different
Even Bojack paid for trying to change himself too late
@@falconeshieldhonestly would've wished that was the case for catra :/
"Why would I ever want to change if I'm always right"
-Simon Laurent
Well then I guess him being dead is right aswell.. IRONIC
What a foolish though, no one is prefect at the beginning. That is why Simon was being blind and get lost at very end.
But yeah, he throws a really good point here. Most people DESERVE to be redeemed, but even when given the opportunity they CHOOSE not to change/keep the course of their actions, and that's the most valuable lesson of all: no matter what you went through, no matter the wrong the world did to you, its your life and your decisions. If you decide to be an asshole or an abusive or sadistic or manipulative little shit, you cant complain about the consequences or the way your life ends.
you say deserve, but what about need?
when does need come in?
@@jd3587 it's still their choice if they want to try to change or not
I don’t think deserve is the right term. We always talk about deserving this and deserving that when really if we’re honest, we don’t actually deserve anything good. Redemption is a gift. Not a right.
@@Window4503 yeah, I may have used the wrong term. I basically mean anyone CAN be redeemed, but some ultimately CHOOSE not to, or think they won't be able to. And redeeming doesn't equal forgiveness, it means taking the hard path of acknowledging you were wrong and try to do better, to BE better.
@@gloomcat3867 thats what Tod said, right?
Tod from Bojack Horseman?
I feel like Simon finally realized he was in the wrong when he kicked grace of the train. The rage of emotions he went through where he was laughing, then he just started crying and screaming.
Pretty much, the pillar were he rest everything is that grace was his only friend and someone he can trust, the moment that break apart is why is number go up.
I don’t think he realized he was in the wrong, I think he convinced himself he was right that’s why the numbers grew
Well, at the very least the main thing to takeaway from this is that the Train is *very* flawed. It's very difficult to turn somebody around or realise their flaws if their constantly but into life or death, traumatic or cruel situations that would more likely push the average human being further down the path Simon took. I must admit, it would be refreshing at this point in the show if at least someone called that aspect of the train out.
Oh, we know the moral code of the train is not infallible. One-One essentially echoes the thing about denizens only existing for the purpose of the passengers, something we spend two whole seasons being told is wrong. In the second season, Lake only got out because One-One was tricked.
Simon is an intriguing character
He was
Until he got murdered horribly by a roach monster
@@notsew7742 that was his fault and the roach did the right thing
@@beybladerandbrawler2969 yes the roach should of done it slower, rip tuba
@@notsew7742 yeh tuba was good 😌
I think part of the genius of this season is that when you look back on it, it seems like Simon was the more “redeemable” character than Grace. Grace started the Apex, she manipulated Simon and the Apex. She used them to make herself feel more important and superior. Meanwhile Simon was abandoned and manipulated by those he trusted as a child. But it came down to the choices the two of them made. Grace chose to become a better person and face her mistakes while Simon refused to.
At a certain point you have to wonder what is the Infinity Train’s role in all of this. In the first season the train is presented as this entity that is ultimately good because it helps people solve their problems and face their fears. We’re led to believe that the bad things about the train are only because Amelia took it over. In the second season we begin to see more of the problems with the train. One-one may be presented as this funny, innocent character but he refuses to change the system to let Lake escape the train. He won’t give Lake a number because she “belongs on the train”. It’s only through manipulating the system that Lake manages to escape with Jesse. This begs the question then, what about all the other denizens on the train? As Lake (and later Hazel) prove, they are real and they experience complex emotions but they are presented as companions whose only job is to help passengers. The system of the Train doesn’t allow them to control their own stories. They are only meant to help others not themselves. This was the mold Lake was trying to break out of.
Then comes season 3. This season really shows that the train is not something that “cares” about either the denizens or the passengers. The train provides opportunities for the passengers to grow but it is up to them to make their own choices about their paths. Amelia says that to One-one, the passengers are all just numbers he doesn’t know that Grace, Simon, and the Apex exist. One-one doesn’t really care about them as individuals. Meanwhile the train has trapped children on it and subjected them to immense trauma. The train to me simply represents life. Life doesn’t care about you, it’s the people in it that do. Life is not fated, you have to make your own choices and those choices will have consequences. The train also runs on a system, like society, but not everyone fits into neat little boxes. The passengers and the denizens are not different from one another. They are all complex individuals with the ability to make their own choices which can sometimes lead them down dark and terrible paths. The train (and life) can give you opportunities to change your path but it’s up to you to make that choice.
Season 3 was about taking responsibility for your own actions so what will season 4 be about? I predict it will be about interpersonal relationships. How do you help someone? Is it your responsibility to help others? Should you interfere when someone is going down a dark path?Season 1 and 2 were about learning to depend on others and not push them away while season 3 was about the dangers of being dependent on one other person. I think season 4 will address co-dependency and perhaps how to learn independence and address the issues of co-dependency. Season 3 showed us two people who were unable to reconcile the changes their relationship was going through. Grace grew more independent and pushed Simon away while Simon, who had grown so dependent on Grace, was unable to cope with that. We know season 4 is going to be about 2 friends who must escape the train together. I think we’re going to see an example of a problematic relationship in which the two friends will learn to be more independent but without destroying their friendship. It’s going to be not about just an individual’s growth but a relationship’s.
this is genius bro
Or. It was the laziest season that had Simon pegged as the villain from the start because he is white.
You should really look at the social pages of the voice actors and production crew.
Answer: Because the show's transition to HBO Max granted Owen and his crew way more freedom with what stuff they could implement, stuff that Cartoon Network likely would not allow on their main channel.
Not everyone wants to be redeemed, some just want to stick to their ways no matter the cost. Example being season 3 of Kipo when you find out that when Kipos mother was still the monkey mega Mute Emilia, told her many things knowing that at the time she couldn't tell anyone, including how she killed her own brother because he befriended the rat mutes on their first outing.
Sad is , you know she probably didn't have a breakdown when she did it
@@sarahtelles1931
She legit decided that moment, she was just like her father, and it makes you wonder what happened to mom
A lot of bad guys haven't been redeemed. Some examples are Thanos, Palpatine, Shredder, Darkseid, and Horde Prime.
@@michaelgutierrez4912 I agree I feel like villain characters that were made to be “likeable” are the ones that get the redemption arc
@@zyanmikalin3808 I like villains that do and don't get redeemed.
Simon shows how toxic will be to ourselves when we too attach to a relationship...also how toxic will be to ourselves when we have too much expectations towards others or to say someone we really care about...
Because we need a villian who stay a villian in Infinity train. Yeah his Backstory was sad. But he was brought in this train for a reason.
Simon is the best and one of the few examples of a sympathetic villain who wasn’t redeemed
I kinda wish he was able to stay alive for another season so we could of had a more extreme Apex form
rollychairs It be cool if he became multiple seasons spanning villain
@@zinkheroofyoutube8004 being so vile he somehow manifests after getting life leeched by the bug?
blinded journeyman Or maybe his soul was absorbed into the thing and he takes it over and slowly rebuilds a human body for himself
My theory: I think, maybe he killed Tuba, because he liked "this null" a little more. And the last time he liked a null, this null abandoned him, when he need it the most. He learned to like Tuba, a null, and this was the most terrifying situation in his little world and believe system.. This wasn't in his control. Liking a null is dangerous in his mind, but killing a null is in his comfort zone.
Sorry, my englisch isn't really good.
The ending statement is the manifestation of “ I’m not insulting you, I’m describing you.” 😆
I related very strongly to Simon during all the steps of his journey and I consider him an excellent reminder of what I could have been if I hadn’t let some things go.
Simon might have been redeemable, but he didn't want to be redeemed, that's why I think he isn't worth of redemption, because if you don't want to change, then it's on you when karma bites your ass
@Isaiah lewis well, cause he didn't think he needed to be redeemed
@Isaiah lewis exactly
@Isaiah lewis to some extent, not fully, but i believe what you said is very similar to what i think, however in the end no one knows, i might be wrong and you right, or vice versa
@Isaiah lewis thanks i appreaciate yours as well
@Ghost simon didnt know he was wrong, he belive he was right because otherwise he will have to deal with the fact he was abandone.
Some people chose cruelty over dealing with their on pain.
Simon is just the lone wolf in the Infinity Train saga.
And is just so sad.
I wouldn't call him a lone wolf, evidently he couldn't think for himself n got dependent on Grace from a young age. Maybe what happened to him initially was sad, but he fell and leaned into the dark side, and after he killed Tuba, what actually happened to him seemed merciful
LaIly written villain.
He wasn’t designed for us to like, he was deisigned to represent a white villain.
Check the show runners social pages.
as much as i like redemption arcs, its always nice to see someone you can clearly root against
From the very start, because he’s lazily written as a villain to represent white toxicity.
Traumatized psychopath. His main idea in life was to hurt them before they hurt you.. He was given so many chances but he was blinded by pain. Its sad he had to go like that tho i rlly wanted to know why he was on the train
He just wanted to be an anime villain. (I actually legit screamed when he murdered Tuba)
When he makes amends with Samantha she Tells him all the stuff you do to get your number up imagine what this woman most have done . he then runs back urgently. So he knows the higher numbers are bad yet he still strives for a higher number because of the power
The main reason that Simon did not get a redemption was probably for the moral of some people can’t, or choose not to, be redeemed.
I agree with you. I feel that's a moral we should teach sometimes, but there are people who purposely don't want to teach that.
or that sometimes you won't get enough time or chances to be redeemed...as long as simon lived there would be a chance he could change.....even the ex conductor spent YEARS in denial and trying to live in her delusion and only got out of it after all of the chances to continue her experiments were cut off with the return of the real conductor and choosing only the wrong decision til finally a random girl gave the breakthrough she needed.
We definitely know that Simon chose to live in denial and not be redeemed because if he accepts he has problems and needs to change he has o accept everything he's done for years was wrong and that can hurt. it felt like part of him knew he was bad and chose to continue down that path anyway.....
but I think they give two hints something could have changed if he was given more time. his look of horror and crying before his insane laughter when he thought he killed grace and his dazed look when grace turned out to be alive. He had finally vented and lashed out his feelings entirely where he KNOWS she would have died without the denizens. and we KNOWS part of simon cares about grace because he cried and he wouldn't be this angry if he didn't.
what would have happened if he dealt with having to face what he did. the relief that grace was alive. the denizns kept his best friend from dying. and we know grace still wanted him to live and change even after because she saved his life and she cried over his ashes.
but he didn't get that chance to find out...and sometimes you don't. would he have gone into denial mode again? or would the first babystep to realizing he went WAY to far finally stick....we'll never know...and that's tradgic
@@clarisacalderon9555 If you ask me, simon would probably gone insane, the guy cant cope with change, he need a safe space and deal with that slowly.
Simon was a bomb, grace was just the match.
I think Simon was like and always has been through the whole series "I've gone so far, oh well there isn't coming back now" and continued to take the path he saw as acceptable and alright. which reminds me of Light from Death Note.
Is more like "why Im wrong, i fair I deserve this?" Simon cant deal with the implication of is worldview being wrong because that means being a poor child all over again.
For some, cruelty is better than weakness.
I don't get how some people seem to think that grace and the rest of the apex were "redeemed" like sure they didn't end up getting killed like simon did but i wouldn't say that means that they're just automatically redeemed.If anthing they still got a long way to go before actually truely be redeemed.
I agree. Grace literally expresses this at the end of the season.
They’re a pack of murdering thieves?
Like that dosnt just disperse
im honestly glad he wasn't redeemed. I feel like a lot of cartoon shows recently have made everyone redeemable, making it predictable and that there really arent any stakes when two characters are fighting. Simon not being redeemed made it more impacted that he actually did die
Everyone hated Simon but I always felt so so so bad for him. He had trauma from a young age that made him feel like the “bulls” were heartless creatures while humans were the only creatures that mattered as humans were the only ones that made him feel safe while also having little opportunity to learn otherwise.
Simon isn’t some massive villain, he was a broken person that was never going to be fixed through the methods of the infinity train. The infinity train is a change or die situation, Simon needed open conversation and love with people more mature and objective than him.
honestly i felt more for the null character tuba then i did simon, even if he had issues he still tried to kill grace after she saved him, personally i think that set his fate in motion.
@@maskedkitty7350 that was crappy absolutely. But he is a literal child, no child is irredeemable.
@@crem-crem4070 being a kid isnt a free pass, nor makes you a saint, if the kid was evil enough then let it die, cuz this "is just a poor kid" mentality is really annoying
@@crem-crem4070 His mindset was "She saved me... But after she's done.. she's going to manipulate me.. to hurt me.. I can't trust her. I have to get rid of her before she gets rid of me."
@@maskedkitty7350 Because the makers of the story wanted you to have a strong connection to Tuba. Simon was very often put into the background or used as the bad Cop while Grace was the good cop playing with Tuba and Hazel. No wonder you did not like him or have feelings for him.
Basically, you make an irredeemable villain by having redemption offered but refused.
Never a good move in writing
@@prowolf633 how so?
Catra's resentment for Adora was shown on the outside (after awhile, that is, because the biggest change is that Simon was killed before his arc), so when her care for Adora emerged she realized that she hurt her and that *she* needed to change for once. Simon resented Grace's control deep inside after changing for others, so when faced with losing her again his resentment towards her and change kept him from realizing that he needed to change. He liked what she represented to him, not as much her or her feelings, and her changing would mean that he would have to accept that people change and that it didn't necessarily mean the end of their friendship. He envied her but didn't want his supportive figure to act differently.
Since we never really learned his reason for being on the train, throughout the entire series, something was telling me that Simon might have been an abuse victim. He tends to resort to yelling, violence, and being extremely rough with those around him when he’s upset, which could have been a learned trait. He gets triggered being around people, particularly guardian figures, that hurt him in the past. People letting him down, lying to him, or hurting him strike a deep chord and he doesn’t tend to easily forgive them if they do so. He also clearly does not want to get off the train or go home. It would make sense that it was due to him having a rough home life. Honestly, he definitely did some awful things, but he’s a pretty tragic character.
I think simon and grace r a good divide too. Grace and simon were equally bad from the start. Life will give u chances to become better but u have to commit and take the action to become better. Love the duo
In short: he sucked and declined every chance of character development.
he had character development, he was getting worse as a person. this is still character development.
@@eladamittai2753 Ok, he declined every chance to be a better person.
@@browhathow1397 Well, some people chose not to redeem. They chose to be assholes, murderers, and more worse.
@@browhathow1397 Ooo...I like the "decline" doing double duty as his character descended further and further. Solid.
He had character development but the negative kind getting worse and worse
Characters who want to be right no matter what are unredeemable to because they want fix the part of their heart and emotions betrayed themselves 😑
Vegeta?
Simon is my favorite character because of how they made me hate him and also sympathize with him at times.
I am reminded of this one episode of “Doctor Who” where he is confronting a scientist that once created battle cyborgs. The scientist says -“You are okay with me being the kindly town doctor. And you’re okay with me being a war criminal. But it’s the fact that I’m BOTH that you can’t comprehend.”
Simon is the kind of villian that i think everyone should hate as a person. An amazingly constructed character tho. But too far gone. And he stepped over the line. The fact he attempted to murdered the only person who loved him left. And didnt want to see the truth. His suffering after he was shiwed what was correct is entirely his faulth. He just hurt himself with what he did. And others. A horrid person.
I think it was important for this to be in a kids show (or a show that kids watch) because people like this are real.
Sometimes, when you believe the person will change even though they have chosen not to, you think you have to stay with them.
Certainly there are lines that Simon crosses that not everyone like this cross, but that still doesn't mean they're good for you, that what they do to you is right, or that you deserve it.
People that you've seen be hurt, be wronged, and have some good or relatable moments in them, aren't always going to choose to change in the end. When they've made their own choice, you don't have a responsibility to put yourself in danger, even if you can see what brought them there - even if you've also experienced the things they've been through.
Granted, this is diferent because whatever we like or not, grace WAS part of simon grow into a worst person by manipulatie him.
This is one of the things I really like about modern fantasy shows/cartoons. In the past, the villain has rarely been redeemable or the show has never inspired sympathy for the villain, and if they did, the villain would just be redeemed. I think it was a great choice to show that Simon could have redeemed himself, but in the end he didn't want to. It encourages the viewer to think more about the villain than just deciding that he's bad, even though he did choose not to redeem himself in the end.
I think Simon was a lesson of how just because you can be redeemed and are given the chance to be doesn't mean you are going to take the chance. That even with all the tools are there you have to want to change to actually change. Grace and Simon are showing they both could have gotten better but Simon didn't want to get better.
Simon is hands-down the best example of a negative character arc in modern animation
See the problem with Catra is time. They didn't give her nearly enough time to make up for everything she'd done and basically no one held any enmity against her. The fact that everyone forgave her so easily after everything she'd done just felt so... wrong. Zuko, Peridot, Grace, these are examples of good redemption arcs. You could understand their plight, what made them do what they thought was right. They all had time to change and become better people and every one of them had to gain the trust of those they had hurt. Catra just felt like they ran out of time and had to try to squeeze her redemption arc into like three episodes :/
Yeah...Catra is rushed because the writing and the whole series ending. I felt like her redemption should be longer and be faced by the people she hurt and the war she's created. The 5 season shouldn't have to be the final ending.
except that Catra's story was entirely different from him, not to mention that she was willing to make that change. Also her redemption already started in late S-4 if you payed proper attention.
@@AdoboSoGuud And excuse me the war "SHE" created ? Did you forget who waged war for DECADES on Etheria prior to when Catra was even born. Yes she takes charge in season 4 as Hordak's equal but it's literally short lived.
@@fstorms Lemme correct myself. *The war Catra had once taken part of as a former horde's force captain.
@@fstorms in reality, the only difference between cartra and Simon is that Simon died before redemption. Catra had so many chances to turn around. Hell, she did more harm to Adora than Simon did to grace.
No one is beyond redemption but not everyone can be saved. He could of been confronted the same way Grace had to
He was written so fucking lazily
Did a research paper on this for the fun of it. Seems like Simon has sounds of ASPD (anti social personality disorder) and it's a disorder that psychopaths and sociopaths are diagnosed with. I did research on medical websites and concluded that he in fact is likely to be a psychopath.
You're definitely onto something. According to the writing staff of Infinity Train, Simon is canonically a clinical narcissist. Is there any connection between psychopathy and that?
@@JustAStranger2840 yeah both often have high views of themselves and tendencies to not give a damn about those around them. Amongst other things
@@jackswan3420 but I think Simon cared about Grace. Like before he went nuts... he seemed to really respect her feelings... as long as they didn't challenge his worldview. It's shitty but that doesn't read to me as someone incapable of caring about others
Cool, did you do a research paper on the socials of the voice actors and show runners?
@@guyeswanson7958 no
Simon is a dirt person but I found him one of the most interesting character in the animated shows I've seen.
I hope he gets reborn as a denizen on the train honestly. though now I really want to see grace and samatha interact after simons death. simon would have never seen the inside of grace's mind without samantha. and if he hadn't seen it then he might not have felt so betrayed and cornered he felt he had to just leave her there. mind you Grace might have had a rockier time getting further into her character growth without it but I think it really sent Simon to the point where he decided he was going to stop himself from caring...and Samantha predicted it but still gave him the video. Samantha knew that Grace was a little similar to Samantha and that simon seeing inside her head wouldn't go well...but she still gave it to him. and now simon is dead. and Grace is definitlyon her way to being a better person...but her numbers are still pretty high and she probably has some bad habits in her behaviour that might be hard to completely break free from and keep it up.
@@clarisacalderon9555 I hope we see what happens after his death as well. What really interesting is those soul suckers. What is their purpose in that dimension. I don't think simon would come back in a denizen because denizens are oneones creations.But they could be the passengers souls who lost their lives due to those soul suckers, given a chance to live again making sure what happened to them doesn't happen again. I'm not sure but it seems to be a interesting theory
Simon is written as a white villain for the sake of his whiteness.
Check the voice actor and show runner social pages
Not everyone gets a happy ending.
SAME!
Agreed!
Not everyone should have a happy ending nor is everyone deserved it Simon made his choices while grace learned and grew but there's some actions that aren't redeemable
The poor bastard went far too down for the smallest thought of being redeemed.
Poor samon!😞
@@taylorwilliams2880 Good Riddance that that Psychopath is gone.
In Train's eyes, Simon was redeemable even after he murdered Tuba and allegedly murdered Grace. Why? Because he still had a finite number. No matter how big it was, it was a finite number nonetheless, and it *was* possible to make it go down - Amelia is a living proof of this. If there wasn't any way out for Simon, his number would've looked something like that of Jesse when he returned to the Train - something infinite and unsolvable like his problem.
But let's be real, Simon didn't take this opportunity, it was his own choice to kill innocent people and usurp the authority over a bunch of gullible children. He was a scum and died a death fitting a scum. That's all.
For some reason, it brought me immence satisfaction watching him go apeshit and die. I guess I'm just tired of unjustified redemption arcs in every single cartoon. Kids are not dumb unless *we* raise them dumb, and sometimes they *have* to see something like Simon's or Pink Steven's descend into madness caused by their traumas and refusal to face and fix them.
We always here that term forgive and forget. When someone does something one of these things the only one they can really do is forgive bc technically you can't truly forget. Simon wanted to forget and not forgive. Samantha tries to explain what happened but he just wants to forget she even existed and this was his main internal problem. Simon really wants to forget his life outside the train and so does Grace. When grace is faced with her life she had to realize what was truly going on and Simon also probably needed this. He probably needed to see and face his problems head on and even though samantha could've been that he didn't even want to acknowledge it.
We can’t just “forgive and forget” we need to dwell a little before finally letting go
I really hope in the next season they mirror Simon in Hazel and have her start to develop resentment towards humans due to his actions. Ofc I want her to go down the route of seeing that's misguided and with Amelia slowly bonding with her that's enough to help her break out of that mentality.
can they even mirror somebody dead?
@@prowolf633 im not talking about a literal reflection, I'm talking about thematic parallels
@@KalinTheZola if someone is like simon is amelia.
@@diegoernestovarelaparra3820 Nah, I think they're in two separate places with very different issues but would be interested in hearing your reasoning.
He held a grudge against The Cat even though she didn't intentionally mean to leave him behind, he murdered Tuba over not being a person and he almost kills Grace. To top it all off, he was incapable of self-reflection or growth.
I think before Simon from Infinity Train,there was another character who couldn’t be redeemed,but had a tragic backstory:Moon from Star Vs. The Forces of Evil. I feel like Moon started off fine until Battle of Mewni once they went right with her character development,they ended up forgetting to give her one trait:be a good mother and person. Then after Battle of Mewni,Moon just gotten more worse as the series went on,declining two chances at redemption:1.)The trial revealing that she was a peasant due to Festivia,giving her potential redemption to be a better mother to Star and 2.)Getting along with Eclipsa and attempting to find her daughter. Yet,the attack of Meteora and not recovering her memories from the magic dimension,led to her downfall as a character in which she got revenge on Eclipsa for making her lost in a magic dimension by teaming up with Mina Loveberry to start a fanatical war on Mewni,still thinking she’s evil(after losing memories of the trial revealing she isn’t),and her betrayal against her daughter led to Star destroying the magic in the finale.(I think one of the chapters of Battle of Mewni,Puddle Defender,showed Moon at her absolute worst with her bossiness towards Star and racist views against monsters,which might be a early example of her character derailment.)
Is it like when a Nazi or Klansman recruiter finds a kid, trains them up, and after a few years the recruiter has a revelation, decides they don't want to be a Nazi or Klansman anymore, and the kid (who's a full believer at this point) turns on them for betraying their belief system even though it was the recruiter who taught the kid in the first place?
The moment a character murders in cold blood, that character cannot be redeemed by anything short of sacrificing their life or just straight up dying themselves. Otherwise it's just not a satisfying end for the character
I hope we see Grace again she really matured and grew, I think she deserves to be seen again
Hopefully in Book 4 (if there is one hopefully) I want to see her and Hazel try to make up with eachother.
Still a murderer and cruel being, so i hope we see as less of her as possible
@@MarcoCam1314 True her actions are unforgivable
She more able to mature then Simon it more inevitable from start. Don't give me free will 🐂💩 without instincts with out full logic . we are either Radom chance or circumstance .
Freewill by definition doesn't exist
@@osmosisjones4912 What does that mean?
Wow, excellent breakdown of Simon's breakdown - the step by step escalation of his insecurity and the threat of another abandonment
This is some very deep cycle analytics and yeah the hardest thing for a person to do sometimes is to let themselves be vulnerable and admit they were wrong and sometimes even if we know we’re wrong in the initial reaction to that new knowledge we kind of freak out and it takes us a little bit to calm down and in the meantime we do something stupid and sometimes that stupid thing we do has irreparable consequences and that’s what killed Simon
The thing of being vulnerable is acept hard truths, that yeah sometimes we are abandone, that sometimes life is gong to hurt but to trust is oey, simon want to protect himself of everything and in doing so he become a monsers.
No one deserves redemption. It's something you have to want and earn.
Agreed! Plus tragic backstories don't mean you immediately deserve it either.
think it was a good idea because the whole “villain getting redeemed” things is kinda getting old and predictable. I say let them die by their own hand.
i agree
Yep
Not really there's a way to write a good redemption by making the villain struggle with their mental ideals and how the world works and people in their lives and what they want to be.
But I'd like a show where s villain fight a hero but also help them or at least make sure that they don't die or too badly hurt and are pretty chill when not being evil and can switch to the good side no problem bit still aligns with evil when the opportunity arrives without going too far off the rails in their selfish goals.
Sure but it gives more emotion to the story and lets the show focus in on those characters and let us into their minds as they feel conflicted.
It is but I'm Glad Amphibia is likely doing it.
I’d like to think that Simon is an alternate Narancia that got on the train instead of joining Bucciarati’s gang.
im so glad they didnt redeem him. im tired of kids shows making everyone be redeemable and making it seem like everyone will eventually be good with enough work
everyone deserves redemption but if someone is refusing it you cant waste your time trying to force it on them
teaching kids that trying to "fix someone who is broken" is always the best choice is frustrating
believing stuff like that is how people end up suck in situations with unhealthy people
I'm happy to have read this comment, seeing someone understands what I believe.
Writers need to learn that sometimes EVEN KIDS want the villain to die! or some form of punishment!
@@prowolf633 lollll even my little pony didn't redeem all its bad guys.
@@marsmia4869 that's what redeemed their show, But they still refuse to say the word destroy
I agree. Helping certain people who have a lot of emotional baggage and pain can drain you of your energy and you can even be taken advantage of. It would be nice to have more stories in kid's shows focusing on boundaries and how you can help people without them draining you.
But Simon was a murderer,he killed Tuba,and almost Grace.True there some people who deserve to be redeemed.But Simon didn't.
grace murdered too, she was just as bad as simon. grace deserved redemption because she was willing to change. simon wasn't.
Grace, one one, and Amelia says hi.
I said one one because while yes he is not a killer, he is not a good guy either. I mean, the train is a dangerous place and he is in charge of it but yet is a computer with codes.
@@kate-gq4ne Grace deserved to die too, being genuinely sorry doesnt change jack shit if you KILLED someone. she didnt deserve anything better than maybe dying while stopping Simon from doing more evil, but seeing her still alive after all the "nulls" she and Simon killed TOGETHER is an insult to any moral you could have, really how people think this is reedemable? she is a psycopath and a hypocritical sociopath at best
@@MarcoCam1314 that's not an easy thing to come back from, but you have to understand that they were just kids when they hopped on the train. they had nobody to explain it to them. they had way of knowing what their numbers were, all they knew was they were kids trapped on a train with things that wanted to kill them and seemingly no consequences. they had no way of knowing their ideology was wrong, they were 10.
and nobody deserves a redemption. redemption is earned through action. grace started to show more empathy toward nulls, and guided the apex to become better people. she's not fully there but she's actively working toward redemption.
I think a significant element is also that when facing information disproving his beliefs, Simon doubled down, while Grace updated her beliefs.
At the core, Infinity Train is about how you need to self-actualize. And the moment he rejected that for good, he was lost.
She did when their was a benefit for her.
She ends the series still a piece of shit but we’re meant to neglect that because the white guy goes postal.
Actually, speaking of She-Ra, despite being very different characters, Simon fills a similar role as Horde Prime: They're not redeemed because they exist to show the consequences of refusing to change. That is what would have happened to Grace or Catra or Tulip or Scorpia or anyone else who stayed on that self-destructive path without ever getting off.
I feel like "why people don't watch Catra was kind of a tangent," but as someone who doesn't like Catra, at least to me, that's not entirely accurate. Yes, it IS a problem that she goes too far, like at one point she indicates that she understands her actions will destroy the world, but she's going to do it out of sheer spite. And that's only HALFWAY through her arc. But the real problem is that the show kind of sweeps this under the rug & really bends over backwards to give her what she wants, which makes the redemption feel very rushed & unearned.
That incident is never grappled with after she joins the team, & incidentally, she didn't really do that because she decided she wanted to change, she just had no other options. Horde Prime made it VERY clear he would not be manipulated the way that Hordak was. So, while she did come to make genuine connections with the heroes, initially, it was mainly because she had no other place to turn.
I think the dissonance was at its height when the show clearly wanted me to be mad at Shadow Weaver, even though she was objectively being a better ally than Catra. Whatever her faults, Shadow Weaver genuinely wanted to take down Hordak at that point & was nothing but cooperative while Catra just wanted to dip. It's that recurring, blatant favoritism that's really the problem. Catra is treated with kid gloves because the creator obviously wanted a CatrAdora endgame, but that's so bizarre considering everything that leads up to that point. And I just can't really bring myself to believe that they would ever reach a point where they're that comfortable together again.
Like if Simon had survived, they wouldn't just forget about all of the murdering he did, that would have to be addressed, & it's unclear if he & Grace would still be friends. That situation is a bit more complicated because, unlike Catra & Adora, Grace can't judge Simon without knowing that she crossed a number of the same lines & was even the one who taught him that was okay. She may not have tried to kill any humans, but she HAS killed denizins before. That's why she's saddened by his death in spite of everything he did, she knows it's not fair that it ended that way, that he was a confused kid just like she was. A real "there but for the grace of god go I" situation. But, in the end, the difference between them is the path they ended up choosing.
"White boy RAGE!" "Where's the drywall? It's all WOOD!"
Simon,He died the way he lived.
Having his soul sucked out by a giant palmetto bug.
Dissolving into a pile of ash?
Sucking Ash.
It's not about redemption, its about if you live to see it.
If Infinity Train continues I wonder what would happen if a person reached Infinity on their number scale. What actions would be seen as truly irredeemable/unforgivable in the Train's mind?
Jesse technically did
I love that you argued it that instead of being irredeemable, Simon was a complex person who had reasons to be who he was and that he was deserving of redemption, but he refused to at every turn. It's a crime this show wasn't continued because I would love to see the group show up in future seasons as still a collective that works together but are now trying to figure themselves out and helping both humans and the denizens of the train
Simon had the opportunity to reflect on his actions and start turning his life around. And then he kicked Grace off the train.
"WHY WOULD I WANT TO CHANGE, WHEN I ALWAYS ROAST"
I love hearing your thoughts on all these cartoons, you’re basically putting my thoughts into words. Keep up the great work! Big fan!
I didn’t expect shera spoilers in this but I sort of got some I skipped through a lot of it but just a warning btw.
he chose to be an anime villain and i can respect that but he still had to go
Me not watching book 2 or 3 and haven’t watched book 1 in forever
Me: whatever
Also I finally watched someone that’s not awestruckfox (don’t know how to spell it) on the roundtable
Simon had the same chances to change that Grace had; he just chose not to take them. That’s what hurts the most lol
He was younger and worse off when he started
He was written to not take them to create a solid white villain.
I didn't think about catra and simon having any similarities, i didn't even believe him at first but the more he talked about is the more it made sense. Jeez this guy is good.
I can totally agree of what you said: *"I'm the victim, I'm not wrong!"*
It is sometimes an excuse of a hurt person to justify their mistakes.
But clearly that's not right, ofcourse being in a state where you are in so much pain it's easy to want justice on all the bad things that happened to you. But sometimes dwelling with that pain can cause resentment and even distrust on others. Grace tried to convince Simon on what they were doing was wrong but Simon doesn't want to believe it at all. Simon refused to accept the truth that everything he worked for and everything he fully put his trust with were all wrong and even believed it was a lie. That's why at one time he shouts at Grace saying: "everyone lies to me." And when Amelia corrected him: "Have you ever considered that you'd been wrong, Ha! Ofcourse not you're a child..." that really trigerred his anger, hatred, pride and other negative emotions. That drove him to inspect Grace's memories then later felt betrayed after knowing that Grace kept Hazel's identity being a denizen to him. He didn't only felt betrayed by him as a friend and companion but entirely his life. His life was with the Apex, and seeing Grace changing and acknowledging that Apex doings were wrong. Simon felt Grace was abandoning everything that they had with each other, everything that they spend time with each other and been together. The same feeling that he felt when Samantha left him. And he's scared to see it all happen, again. That's why he chose in the end to be bad. Well from the start, he murdered Tuba but what's worse is that he used his past trauma with a denizen to justify to kill a denizen.
I wanna add too that Grace also said that she doesn't owe Simon anything, she isn't responsible of his problems and his actions. And I can agree with that, ofcourse Grace taught Simon everything about the nulls and how to view them but she isn't the one to blame for every single bad thing that Simon was doing. So the moral lesson here is that don't use your suffering to hurt other people. I love that this show never holds back with this kind of issues like with people that who had lost their way and were misguided with a wrong idea/perception that soon later caused a really big and also a bad misunderstanding that also lead to a horrible end. And some elements of this stories has happened in real life especially in cults.
And lastly I want to clarify on what I've said in case other people would misundertand that, I don't belittle people who had/have bad experiences in their lives, but I don't tolerate people who use them for justification or an excuse to make more bad choices and destructive acts.
Grace is...dificult, Grace didnt own simon anything sure but grace use simon so she feel special, she install on him the idea of null and violence as path for identity.
@@diegoernestovarelaparra3820 didn't I mention that from my comment? Yep I totally agree with that but there's just a big difference after when Grace was trapped in her deep thought, she found out that she truly was using Simon and the Apex for her own self-satisfaction, she also realized it after her deep thought Hazel blamed her for Tuba's death. Grace was a bad person but she changed even she was scared to admit it. And she also wanted to work things out with Simon and somehow make some changes for the both of them, and that's what I acknowledge from her.
But for Simon, he didn't, he kept blaming others for all the bad things happening, like the nulls, one-one, Samantha, it's true Samantha did something horrible to him that caused his trauma with him trusting denizens and with the gooms too but he just kept blaming her. And when he was being full villain he blamed Grace for that. For me blaming somebody for their own mistakes is a cowardly act, not only they want to make themselves clear from fault but pin the blame to somebody else for their wrongdoing. So Simon for me became a hopeless character that cannot be redeemed especially he went to kill Grace, his childhood friend despite after Grace saved him. He didn't deserve his death but it was too late for him. Well for Amelia's case she redeemed herself because she understood that everything she was doing was wrong but with the help of Tulip. But Simon didn't got the same circumstance that Amelia had. Simon's problem was more about his fear from getting betrayed/abandoned but it was different from Amelia's, hers was more about grief and also the feelings of indenial that stopped her from accepting reality. But that doesn't give Simon an excuse to commit horrible things. To sum it up Grace was better than Simon not by terms of personality, values and position but to be able to see what adjustments need to be done in order to solve the problem not only hers but for others as well.(well after she knew she was wrong). She messed up a few times but she tried again.
Diego, this is just my opinion and I just added more from what I've said in my comment, to more expess my thoughts over Grace, Simon and Amelia.
I hope this clarifies things.
Simon: **Cannot Redeemed**
Me: Well... Well... Well... I don't know how to say to this infinity train world
Dang Tom, this is your best video yet.
Simon, what does that say? I’m sorry, your head is blocking the words.
I know Simon wasn't redeemed but the question still stands.
Simon has issues with lying and abandonment and the train gave him The Cat
hence he doesn't lie , at least going by what he thinks is the truth/facts. so he fights for his truth.( that what i think at least)
To Answer your response it’s probably a better roast to expose somebody’s flaws, empathy and mistakes that they did then doing a regular well-known roast 😌
Hell yeah! give us more of that Infinity Train content!
haha not the train causing more trauma than it actually fixes
Honestly what made me think he was unredeemable was the fact that he refused all semblance and form of redemption and improvement
This is genuinely my favorite season of infinity train and it’s a shame we never got more seasons for this show.
I'm glad you brought up that Grace never gave up on him. That Grace wanted him to be redeemed even after he tried to wheel her. I think Simon did go way too far but I also think when he cried and physcho laughed after he realized what he did to grace....part of him realized just how far he went and didn't like it. but of course...like in real life...sometimes your not given enough time to redeem yourself. life doesn't wait til your ready. and after all he was LUCKY Grace didn't die...because without the origami she would have died. but we'll never know if maybe he could have babystepped his way to redemption after getting all of that venting out of his system and having to face Grace after she clearly saved him when he knows he didn't deserve it. and we know that Grace still cared and wanted him to be okay.
Hell the ex conductor had YEARS being a shitty person messing with the train and trying to hurt a little girl and mess with others in the train before a season long fight and a child forcing her out of the ability to control the train anymore by putting the rightful conductor back in FORCED her to realize that her only option left was to make a change. and she was a grown adult when she entered the train unlike simon.
I liked the parallel to Catra because Catra did reach unredeemable levels and forcing others away to the point we thought she'd never make her breakthrough...but she was still given that last chance and lost what she could have used to pretend that doubling down was a viable option where she could pretend she'd be satisfied.
only difference is that All the opportunities Simon was given he didn't take and once he reached completely rock bottom where he might have to face what he did to grace where he upset himself enough to cry and that denizens saved Grace....he was snuffed out instead of being given more time. As long as you are alive there is a opportunity to change...but you can't always bank of being given that time you need. Catra got those extra episodes and was able to get out of her denial phase. Simon wasn't given that extra time. and I'm kindof okay with that...cuz you know...he sucked and tried to murder his best friend twice..
If anything...more than Catra(though I think he definitely has as more agency in his choices lika catra)...I think Simon reminds me of Azula from avatar the last airbender. a d honestly....I can relate that its almost preferable to doubledown than admit you were wrong...because if he admits he was wrong...kt means he'll have to accept he spend years killing people by wheeling denizens. that killing Tuba was wrong and that Deniizens can be good and it was just he got a bad one in Samantha. like its HARD to accept that. you know its better for you and everyone if you accept it and try to improve...but DAMN it can be hard. just look of the people putting all of their eggs in the trump basket...if they accept he is terrible nd incompetent and its not a conspericy....its hard.....we can't just excuse simon for what he does.
but I do like the idea that he just like catra or others all deserve a chance for redemption. even if in the end simon never got it since he didn't take the other chances he was given.