1937 Lincoln Zephyr: Ian Roussel And The Angle Of The Dangle 📐 Are Ian's Calculations Correct? ✅
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- 1937 Lincoln Zephyr: Ian Roussel And The Angle Of The Dangle 📐 Are Ian's Calculations Correct? ✅
Full Custom Ian Roussel talks theory to set the baseline parameters of the Mustang II style suspension components.
The Backstory:
Desert friends turn Ian and Jamie on to a find of a lifetime, A 1937 Lincoln Zephyr.
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I needed to see this I have an early Mustang II front end on my pro street car and a nasty radical bumpsteer problem. Anyone know a guy here in Washington State that knows their stuff about setting these front ends up? If so please reply. I live close to Olympia Wa and can drive either south or north of Olympia.
Jamie is so patient. I was replacing pressed in wheel bearings today and I tried to show my wife how the press worked. She said she didn't care at all and eveything was like Chinese to her. 😂
I’m sorry My wife is not mechanical at all but she takes very good direction she help me build a 48 Chevrolet convertible and our 1950 Chevy pick up she loves the cars and she’s very good at taking directions we have a rule if I yell she quits
Should have looked for the MADE IN CHINA tag
The increasing camber effect you are talking about happens if the control arms are the same length but the upper pivot point is not vertically aligned to the lower one or if the control arms are different lengths to each other. What you are trying to establish is a parallelogram. That means your upper and lower control arm should be parallel to each other to begin with and they should be the same distance from frame to hub mount. If the distance to the hub from their pivot point on the frame is the same length then as the suspension cycles they will travel through the same arc in relation to the frame.. The wheel if it starts out plumb will simply travel up and down and not camber in and out. It will however move marginally left and right in relation its distance from the frame. If your control arms are different lengths or they start out at different angles or the frame mounting points are not vertically aligned to each other that is when your wheel will camber in and out.
There are some graphic simulators online that show all this. Search for "suspension simulator". From what I've learned, you do in fact WANT the camber to change in a controlled fashion as I described in my other post. There is so much going on in a suspension system that it's difficult to grasp all the fine points without computer software and years of Engineering experience!
the upper control arms are always shorter. But I don't know why.
When u cut the back of the bracket u also added to that camber
Upper arm is considerably shorter than the lower. East to see how swing are will cause camber gain. Good for race car, not good for street.
Castor also helps with self-straightening...Where after you turn, the spindles/wheels want to straighten up without the need for input from the driver...
You two have no idea how much I appreciate these videos and how much time and effort that goes into them. Just keep on going . You'er doing great.
Ian , as a 78 yr old carpenter, and builder, framing squares never go permanently OOS. All that’s needed is center punch, hammer, and a straight edge on on flat surface. Most squares between the heel and tongue have two small punch marks. Hitting either one will open or close the right angle…
Great to see a car show on youTube doing multi projects all running coincidence with each other to stop any boredom on builders behalf or fans keep the great work going
Such a chilled explanation of something most technical. Very enjoyable, thanks for posting.
I really appreciate you taking the time to teach me modern suspension design fundamentals. Ian please keep your Zephyr project hot and moving on your channel; I am eager to see you driving this car. You are terrific!
The A-Arms ain't parallel because the upper ball joint doesn't fit all the way into the spindle
You might want to check the top spring perch measurements. It should line up with the lower control arm spring location. It looks like it might be to far in towards the frame.
Thank you! Another day in rehab for me with another fabulous episode of 'FULL-CUSTOM-IAN'! (that's in the BIG stadium voice!) 👩🦳
Great episode. I would not be patient enough for that. Have a good week. Marc from Australia 🇦🇺
You can resquare the roofing square by laying it on a flat surface. To spread the angle apart you hit the inside of the corner angle with a hammer, or to close the angle you hit the external corner.
No need to replace the roofing square.
Check it each time by marking a square line off the bench edge, flip the squares leg to the other side of the line and see which way you need to adjust the square to.
Hope this is a clear how to.
This is truly my favorite RUclips show. Hi Jamie 😊
It's always interesting and interactive.
Glad you enjoy it!
I think that the 1.5" minimum dimension that you reference is the measurement from the top of the frame rail to the top of the "hat" as you called it
Thanks for the valuable front end geometry lesson Professor!
Love the show and the variety of projects you are working on. Also, Jamie you do an excellent job of videoing each show. Very smooth and detailed!
Thank you very much!
Mr. B. Here ! ☕️👀😎👍. Thank you Ian , you have help me prove that you are never too old to learn . A young man feels school would be done : LOL I toll him to watch you work on building the frame 👍👍🧰🔧⚒️🪛🍎✏️📓🎓📐
Think about having the drivers side camber set at o right side about 1 .5 degrees cuz the middle of the road is higher than the curb by six inches , plus you are there you might take the Ackerman out of the steering,, plus more castor takes the nerviness out of the handling at speed anyway just a thought,keep going😊
Use a tapered reamer to get your ball joints down on the spindle, it will change your ride height.
The additional negative camber you get when lowing that low will actually HELP to tuck your tires into the wheel well.
I've been working on cars for 50 years and you really amaze me with your work but more so with your warped mind on ideas.
I love the T-shirt Ian is wearing
Always interesting and captivating. Thanks for sharing with us.
Hi Ian and Jamie .Before you go to far with that frame stub you need to work out what the frame rake will be at normal driving ride height, then the lower arm should be set so that it is parallel to the road surface both fore and aft and cross ways . the upper arm should come straight out so as it goes through its normal range of driving movement it will swing through an arc equal both above and below the centre line giving minimal camber change , at the moment the pivot end of the upper arm needs to be raised so the centre line of the pivot end is level with the centre line of the ball joint . Then you can dial in your anti dive and castor from there. John K.
Another epic episode cheers Ian and Jamie 🇬🇧 UK watching 🙏
Most mustang 2 kits came with 78-88 GM metric calipers from G-bodied cars-but offered both small and big bore calipers !!
Been a busy week, so I am a bit behind watching. The caliper mounts arewere common on IMCA/UMP style modifieds. I know older DirtWorks used a Chevelle frame, stock lower arm but a Dodge style ball joint, Tubular upper (also the Dodge screw-in ball joint), a Pinto/Mustang II spindle, Grenada rotors, and the fabbed mount for a GM Metric caliper. Later cars used GM Metric frames but many still did the Pinto/II spindles, but some used Metric spindles. Speedway Motors sells the brackets for 10" and 10½" rotors
Parallel arms are not often used on street or race cars to gain caster to deal with tire and body roll to keep things so the most tire is on the road.
Back in the early 90's, I raced a Mustang II in ministock. My cars were known to handle real well, but it was easy to do with that front end. I also did a lot for traction on the rear end where most just go with whats there or toss a bunch of drop block in it. I did things to the springs and angles. My ride height was set so the lower arms were as close to parallel to the ground as I could get them. Of course my upper arm settings would do you no good on the Zeph, other than give it a terminal pull to the left.
You can measure caster angle really easily on the MII suspension. Using the STOCK spindles, lay a protractor along the large machined circle faces where the original caliper bolts went through. With everything installed on the car, this will be actual caster angle. You're right, around 6 degrees is ok; BUT check the drop spindles for mechanical trail. Its a built in offset between the ball joints and the center of the spindle. If your drop spindles have trail built in, that 6deg of caster is going to make it really hard to steer.
I’m no suspension genius but maybe the spindle needs reamed so the upper ball joint can engage deeper? That would help get your an arms closer to parallel.
I love the way you explain how and why you are doing what you’re doing, it helps us understand what and why! Thanks for the insight! Jamie another banger of a show!
I really enjoy your work and your approach to what you do. You've inspired me to do a lot of things that I've never tried before. After all, "What could possibly go wrong"? Thanks!
In order for your arms to be parallel, the bushings pivot centers top to bottom distance must be {near} equal to the ball joint pivot centers distance. Those extended ball joints are usefull when you have tall frame rails that spread your arms [top/bottom] apart. In your set up with the square tubing, those balljoints are throwing you off. If you dont want to swap the balljoints, raise the upper arm mounting the amount equal to both extensions.
Your show is refreshingly, mellow. You two, are great.
Ian set it up like you are, once it's set, you'll have to fine tune it with an alignment. The upper control arms will get shims put under the mounting points to increase or decrease caster.
If you guys end up in the area, we have this event, I'm sure you would find interesting. You might even want to bring one of your vehicles. It's the Vintage Torque Fest, May 3&4 at the Dubuque County Fairgrounds, in northeastern Iowa.
Hey guys, me again the old engineer. I know you want the car to look somewhat normal as far as wheel tilt in/out when it's slammed on the ground, it's a nice look...but for a drivable car you'll need a little camber for driving around. Here's why : If you're out driving and rounding a big sweeping curve unless the center of weight of the car is down at the center of the wheel (it won't be, after all the engine, car body and passengers are all higher up) then the car will slightly tip over to the outside of the turn. Unless you've welded the car to the axels without a suspension then the frame rail on the inside of the turn will rise up a smige higher than the frame rail on the outside of the curve so... with the tire slightly canted out with the tire pushed up into the fender, the tread will sit flatter to the paving and provide better grip. Imagine the body tilted way over in a turn but the tires are still situated straight up and down as it pertains to the frame rail, the outside edge of the tire would be the only part contacting the paving, loud screeching, rubber smoke and the chance that the tire will roll off of the steel wheel !!Yikes!! So car suspensions are designed with just enough wheel in-tilting at full load to handle the body roll from a hard turn in order to keep the tire's tread flat to the road surface and in contact with the road. Keep it up guys, you're doing pretty good without an engineering degree 👍
Love the inserted drawings graphics. Good job Jamie. The geometry stuff you know is SOO far over my head, I'm glad I don't have to rely on it.
Ian. I learned a lot this evening I have built a few hot rods never had to get in to the front Suspension geometry
Changed out the Wages under the Straight dropped axel to increase the camera Thank You
Great tutorial, shows how much thought is entailed in doing it right
i have no idea whast Ians talking about with front end setup and math versus physical movements but ive seen Ian so so much if he told me my car needed this id give unquestionable trust
Love seeing everyone commenting and interacting .
Hi your anti dive angle also allows the wheel to move ever so slightly rearward as the wheel steps up over a bump in the road diminishing the violence of the road roughness.
The horseshoe caliper attachments are for GM brakes. I believe that some mustang II kits may have upper arms that are 5/8" more narrow, for certain applications.
Thus so is the bottom bracket, it
may help keep the tires inside the fenders. I'm putting an original stang II frontend on an A chassis, so top and bottom brackets are connected. I saw/read that the top hats should have 10° - 12° pitch for your "auntie" lol.
You need to take into account the ackerman angle too, requires the slight angling of the top suspension arm support to induce a default +ve caster into the geometry. Your set up will only allow to adjust caster on the lower arm (if at all) by shimming the space between the lower arm bushing and the releveant lower support bolt insert housing. .. be wary of the steering rod nub length on the spindle too, too short and your rack and pinion will have to move out a lot ('cause you can't pull it inwards) to keep that ackerman angle sufficiently wide to compensate for the lack of power steering. Awesome build nevertheless.
🟥 Taper reamer to ream out the top ball joint hole in the spindle which will in essence lower the top "A" arm to bring them both parallel . Im thinkin thats what you're looking for. As far as the Dewalt goes, you can heli coil and loc tite the bolts, or you could just give it to me...Thank you.
Thanks for the info!
@@fullcustomIan I was serious about the Dewalt
By far, my favorite channel. You guys are great!
Wow, thanks!
Your discussions during the filming reminds me of Bruce on Drain Cleaning Australia on RUclips where keeps acknowledging you at the back…
Love the thought process in deciding where each part should be .
Ian and Jamie: love the tech/ content! Was wondering if shorter ball joints would make that top arm become more parallel to bottom? Keep up the great work!
Front end looking good, just have to be sure the new frame rails are horizontal when in the car.
As easy as 1-2-3. That's all I really understood...then I'm not a fabricator. Great video y'all.
He's such a goof! I love being able to watch you two!
Great info right there on the front end options , cause and effect. Thanks for sharing !
I think the control arms and dogbone set the camber. Caster is cast into the spindle forging. Camber change when lowering or cornering is a result of the arms resultant arm lengths.
Ian, Ian, Ian, Information overload, so good. Good one mate.👽😎🇦🇺
Thanks 👍
Ian, using a longer upper control arm will give you a slower camber gain as the wheel moves through it's range.
The shorter upper control arm will make the wheel lean in farther and faster than the longer one
you will need to use the matching shorter lower
control arms. the ball joints on the long ones are a problem, spacers??
👽👽 just as we figured, Ian and Jamie added up another great show 👽👽
And people think alignment is easy because the local kid at the tire shop can adjust the toe in !
You partially correct on most things you say but combinations of different tiny adjustments make huge differences to handling.
Yes increased positive castor will generally prevent death wobbles but the more you increase it the weight of steering will also increase. the reason most modern cars handle so well is they run very high castor angles up to 7 or more degrees in some European cars, this is for straight line stability BUT also for the self centering coming out of a corners which is needed running wide tires particularly radial tires. The down side is very heavy steering hence the reason power steering is used. Even 6 degrees will be super heavy at low speeds.
So Ian power steering is your friend.... you could hide an electric column under the dash.
Those spacers you mentioned on the ball joints could kinda defeat the purpose of everything you are saying... They will throw out your geometry and potentially cause the dive you want to eliminate. They will increase the arc of the top arm incrementally as the suspension compresses.
There is a reason its called parallel A arm suspension where top and bottom arms are parallel it's so the camber doesn't alter much through the total arc of the arms.
Those spacers have to go...
Motor Car manufactures have spent millions getting geometry right so look under a modern double a arm car ( modern sports cars and super cars ) and copy that.
There are many other factors that affect all of this but get it generally right and later when setting up it will make your life easier.
Yeah, the kid. My boss was re-doing a '69 Road Runner, he took it to get it aligned, "the kid" said he can't align it. (All new parts in the front end and we got it close enough to drive it to the shop) I think he meant to say, he doesn't know how to align it.
Thank you for sharing.🛸👽👍
Thanks for watching!
Oooh! the math, gr8 effort, had to have a lay down after that, brilliant Ian, a lot of helpful info, little things that have a big effect, cause a good result, thanks cheers
Indeed, the measurements of the arms, the stop axle, and the drum must be standard and accurate and require checking and repeating... because the simplest mistake... the car’s wheel alignment will be a failure... Good work 👍
Well said!
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Mrs Richards: "It's not good enough!"
Basil: "May I ask what you were expecting to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window ? Sydney Opera House, perhaps? the Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically past?..."
Mrs Richards: "Don't be silly! I expect to be able to see the sea!"
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Mrs Richards: "I'm not satisfied. But I shall stay. But I expect a reduction."
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Another great episode keep them coming 🤘👽👍
Bolt pattern, Ford 4.5 GM 4.75 Both are 5 lug. I was told on Tang clip, cross member 3 degree tilt forward.
Another thing to think about is when u put on the outer tye rod ends that they are able to pivot at the same point as the lower control arm not to get in another bind point
Ian, couldn't you either get a smaller top ball joint, or drill out the the top hole on the spindle to get the top Arm to move down and make the a arms more level.
Gave me mead acke excellent guys cheers 🥂 😊
You know, they make shims that you can put between the upper control arm and bottom piece that you're Bolding it up to t. A change, the camber of the A arm
Yes the alignment shop will have them.
What engine do you want to run in the LZ? The V12 has many design problems, excessive sludge build up due to poor crankcase ventilation and overheating due too small water passages. A Flathead V8 may work but is a 90 degree casting rather than the 75 degree v12. With your Mustang II suspension, the small block 289/302 should fit well.
LS3...
Hey guys the beauty of comments on RUclips? Even negative comments they help drive your program!!
Awesome and love the way that Jamie not only wants to learn but is understanding and makes her own logical input suggestions as possibilities. Keep on Jamie. Sometimes a new brain can give a more viable solution and also love the way she also can think laterally outside the box. Love it all keep going. Thankyou.
I've had all kinds of grinders that do that, just needs some thread locker.
Very educational today.
Utube keeps unsubscribeing me so now l have to resubscribe every time l watch but l guess to watch 1 of the best car builders in my opinion you and Jamie hope spelled her name right,,but you are on the same plane as bad Chad and Jolene, would love to see acolabe with the both of you. Between the 2 of you it would be awesome.
Ian, the ball joint tapers have to be fully seated in the spindles. I saw you ream to fit tapers in one of your videos. Either "Little Jewell" 1.0 or the jeep.
He doesn't have the rubber covers on.
Interesting, i would extend those adjustment slots though.
Good stuff 😊
Ian, the best way to keep the screws from backing out of the grinder head, put some of Jayme's finger nail polish on them, it works like thread locker but it cam be removed if needed. Ask me how I know!!!
Oh man, Professor Ian. You've got it cambered, castered and antidiving now. 🧐
This kind of thing is why I lean toward the "engineered kits". It's all inclusive and all the geometry is figured out. I've wasted more money (and time) just trying to save a few bucks. LOL BUT...I enjoy the show and eagerly await the next. I also think a reamer in those spindles would be a good Idea. Or, perhaps even better, the correct ball joints for said spindles.
Oh, the graphics with all the "math" and geometry was funny. Especially the "360 degrees full tern". Must have been a college grad that writ that. LOL
Love your show .watched it for years.
You need to move upper control arm pivot up to change roll center
The Zeyphyr is so cool, i can see Jamie driving it down 1st ave with a huge LS 5.3L engine in it! 👍🇺🇸
Agree.
I bought a lowering vehicle yesterday, ok, well, its not like this, but the passenger side lowers to make wheel chair access easier. Its old and worn out, and going to need a fair amount of work, but it means mobility for my family.
GM: is my guess check-out G-Body Camaro & S-10's for your Brake Pads. Awesome build a challenge no doubt.
Of course he couldn’t wait and had to put it in! You just can’t do all that math and not hit the = button! Good stuff!
Just went out to the garage to check the angles of my Mustang 2 A-arms and the outside end of the top arm is just a little higher than the horizontal to the floor lower arm.
mustang II brakes, 78-88 G-body metric calipers, rotors 4.75 on 5 bolt pattern, from the same year G-body or use Granada rotors 4.5 on 5 bolt pattern with the GM metric caliper.
Very well done Ian and Jamie
Never thot i wud git a math class on a car build show. 😂😊 well done ian 👍. Jamie cover your toes.
Good idea!!
I can’t believe that somebody has called you a lazy welder. There is nothing lazy about you. You didn’t use your usual phrase. Remember, it’s science people. LOL. Still love your videos bro. Another project that I cannot wait to see you finish. Because I have a feeling that this is going to be one. Awesome build when it’s finished. Please take care and blessings to both you and Mrs Ian from England.
The calipers look like gm. The rotors I'm pretty sure are Ford Granada.
Lower control arms needs to be level or up hill at the spindle...upper a arms can be purchased from speedway motors stock car catalog in half inch segments and different offsets...upper a arm angle will change your front roll center....more angle equals lower roll center...steering arms need to be at the same angle as the lower control arm measured in degrees from rack to spindle...this will control bump steer
I'm surprised you don't use Hercules tools. They're cheap but they are comparable to Milwaukee.
Is your table flat, looks like there is a gap when square is flat on the left, but 3" from the corner of square a gap appears about the same place as a line appears across the table - perhaps a join seam.
Old 60s ford was about 1.5 degree for ease of parking lots... 3 degrees is better on highway. So I am told.
You need equal length arms to keep the wheel at 90° to the road ......using unequal arms as you are will never be right at all heights on bags
When I’m required to do a lot of siphon, I always find that open toed or no shoes at all help me to count to more than ten.
I agree that ant going anywhere, yup its locked down tight......
Well explained! Thanks again.