Thanks for the update I got my power wall + installed with enphase IQ7 micro inverters apparently they can mix without voiding any warranty. The tech called Tesla because of 3 bad breakers I had in the new breaker box. But I was amazed that’s all.
Joe, Thanks for all the great concise info on your videos. You also have lots of great commenters that ask and answer questions I'm thinking. Still waiting for the larger Powerwall 3 that will also work off-grid without having to be connected to the internet to work.
@@lupofiasc0 Joe used to wear horizontal striped shirts that are not captured clearly in video. It was visually distracting. I suggested to him that he stay away from striped shirts and he has.
I'm curious how the Encharge's performance, with its ability to power the home from panels and battery at the same time, will match against the new DC-coupling of the Tesla, given the fact the Encharge is an AC-coupled system..
I placed my order with Tesla about six weeks ago, and my Powerwall Plus/Powerwell 2 pair was installed this week. I'm curious how it works with two of them together.
I think Matt is asking if you can end up with multiple Powerwalls per inverter or if it is going to always be one to one now. For example, my 16.32kWhr system about to be installed has 2 Tesla Inverter's & 4 Powerwall 2s. I will contact my rep to see if I'm now going to get the Powerwall + units instead & if thoae 4 will still be paired with 2 Tesla Inverter's (I suspect yes) or instead now have 4 inverters (one for each Powerwall).
@@christopherm.6094 These are all good questions and I don't have the answer just now. Please let us know your experience once the install takes place.
@@christopherm.6094 I’m working w/Tesla on 12 panel / 2 PWs (AC coupled) / 1 inverter sys. Permitting complete next week. Two questions for you. How comfortable are you with using Tesla’s traditional string inverter? What do you think of Tesla’s “old” AC coupled PWs vs new Powerwall+ DC coupling?
Generally speaking 3 units will handle larger loads. With some of these batteries that have higher surge capacity you can get away with 2 or even 1. Every system is so unique. Generac offers one of the highest performing products however you can not stack multiple units together making it very limited. It’s also not recommend to do whole home backup with the Generac PWRCELL. The system was very much designed for partial home back up. Enphase makes a great product. The Encharge 10 has half the output of the Generac PWRCELL yet the system is modular and more batteries can be added in parallel to output what ever is needed.
I would disagree. The Generac system is very much designed for whole home backup using automatic intelligent load management. Please see here: ruclips.net/video/946072_MzUY/видео.html
To be fair the PWRCELL can only output 11,000 watts with two batteries. The new SolarEdge EnergyHub Max can do 10,000 cont. Also the Enphase Encharge is modular so you can compete with multiple batteries.
I have a question if it's possible. You know that when the batería goes to "0" at night due the high consume the system automatically shutdown. Some time don't go up with the panels at the morning and one have to either jumpstart the envoy or reset the battery in order to get the batería life again. It's the same with the powerwall+ or the inverter restart the battery once the sun comes up in the morning? (Excuse my english)
I have exactly the same questions. Thanks for asking, Ruchit. Joe, after hearing the Powerwall 2's inability to regulate solar output, I was all but sold on Enphase. Given Tesla's inverter is still a string inverter, doesn't the Tesla inverter/Powerwall+ combo still lack the ability to regulate solar output like an Enphase system?
@@edhuebbe7900 The new Powerwall+ DC-coupled architecture does allow throttling of solar output. The inverter controls the solar output in this architecture.
Joe, Another question my brother..., in a long grid-down situation, does the new Tesla PowerWalls+ system allow me in a back feed the home and or the PowerWall with a generator? Cheers, Eric
Yes this is a risk. However, modern solar panels are built to mitigate shading right at the solar panel level so the losses should be minimal compared to previous generations of solar panels.
I am having a 15.12kW + 3 PW system installed at my home this week. PW are back ordered I'm told until august so the installer is wiring in everything and enabling solar only for now. Given the increased 9.6kW peak power output of these new powerwalls I'm worried whether I need to increase wire gauge and breaker size, otherwise I don't see how the system will handle the 50% additional power after Elon's promised PW firmware upgrade that increases peak power. Joe - is there any chance you could please find out using your Tesla contacts whether new systems should be sized with higher capacity wiring (6awg?) and breakers (50A?)? Thanks
Question I just got mine installed still need inspection and all the other stuff would make any sense asking for these new ones or just keep the one I have thanks
@@SolarSurge Do you use messaging systems like whatsapp or telegram to reach customers? I'd like to have a more private conversation. I've used your website to ask for a quote but I think it'll not be possible since you don't service outside the US. But maybe, we can find other possibilities to do business together.
Joe, I just went PV, all installed and waiting for Utility meter and final "ok". REC panel, IQ7 microinverters, Tesla gateway and 1 Powerwall II. I don't want to use my battery at night because I don't use much and Grid is cheap at night. I can't seem to find any setting in Tesla app that will configure my system for this. It only wants to charge in the daytime and use battery at night. Can you help?
Why do they say soft start if it is just increased surge capacity with Caps? Soft start would be a triac or a way to have a ramped ac voltage, this seems like it would be a dedicated output
I’ve had a grid tied Powerwall 2 for about 1 1/2 years for load shifting and partial home backup and like it very much. I just heard about the PW+ today. A couple of thoughts: - Looks like this will lock out the microinverter (i.e. Enphase) style systems. DC PV inputs only? - If they are going back to multiple stringed PV arrays with a single integrated controller, are locations with partial shade problems out of luck? - The installation wiring does look simplified, which is a plus, as is the new Emergency Shutdown switch. - The Gateway is a ‘Gateway 2’ for the PW+. We’ll have to see how it differs. - A substitute for the ‘Gateway 2’ is the ‘Backup Switch’ socket that mounts between the meter and meter box. I know my utility (Southern California Edison) doesn’t allow this configuration currently. - There is also a new ‘Solar Shutdown Device’ that goes between every 10 Tesla solar roof modules and the PW+ to provide rapid shutdown safety (and for every 3 Hanwha Q.PEAK DUO PV panels). Another sign that microinverters need not apply. - I don’t see any signs that the battery stacks separately, so apparently you’d stack whole PW+ units (seems like that’ll increase costs of added storage)
Great questions here. I agree that it looks like micro-inverters are out now. This is a straight DC-coupled string inverter system. Not sure about battery stacking either. We will provide more video updates and Tesla releases more product details.
This is super interesting. Tesla installed my solar in October, I decided to order a powerwall almost immediately afterward. FINALLY as of April my project is “ready for install.” With the advent of powerwall+ I called them and they are doing a redesign, linking the powerwall in series ahead of my main panel giving me a whole home backup. Now, I have a Solar Edge Inverter. I don’t know what will happen with that, will they offer to swap it with theirs? At what cost? Will I be able to get the whole home backup but without the direct DC charging of the battery? I’m excited to see what the new design shows…
@soundanswer - How many panels? How many PWs? Which SE Inverter? Very interested on how this turns out. I’m in negotiation now with Tesla for 12 panel, 2 PW system with either SE 3.8 Inverter or traditional Tesla string inverter. Do you have SE’s individual paneling monitoring?
@@gilbrook I have 14 panels, 4.76kw total with a SE inverter. The order is for one powerwall. Tesla HEAVILY discouraged full access to the inverter app, so I can only see what the Tesla app shows. There are other folks near me in Illinois that got Tesla to open up access to the inverter login. I would like to have that because I’m curious, but it’s not a deal breaker. One thing that was interesting was during my install/inspection the master electrician pointed to the monitoring clips and said “we’re moving away from these” - which makes sense now with the current (new) configuration where everything flows through powerwall. I think ALL the monitoring will be more accurate.
@@soundanswer Thx for your response. Very timely. Permitting likely complete this week. Hope to complete and accept my Tesla layout next week. I’ve requested SE 3.8 Inverter because of early morning shading from adjacent higher roof and late afternoon shading from treed lot. SE panel monitoring not a deal breaker for me either. So your install completed and operational? My primary object in going solar is to keep furnace on in winter during grid failure. Your objective? Your reasoning for single PW? Did you get new Powerwall Plus?
@@gilbrook Yeah we have installed since October and up and running since December. I canceled my powerwall initially because of the the cost incentive not being there. (My utility gives a 1:1 kWh credit, so the grid is essentially my “battery”) However, the day after our install we lost grid power immediately after a major recording session, and then then next day we lost it again DURING a recording session. I immediately said “f this” and went and asked Tesla if we could put the Powerwall on. (My system is small and doesn’t produce really enough to fill two powerwalls in a given day) - I didn’t want to pay all that just to have AC during grid outages. But I really need to make sure our internet connection and recording stays up during commercial recording sessions. So that is why I want the backup. Tesla is reconfiguring my design now for the powerwall so it it will be a powerwall+ and have whole home back up with just one powerwall. One thing to consider on SE inverter vs. Tesla, is the direct DC charging to battery that you get with the Tesla inverter. Rather than going through two inversions DC to AC back to DC for the battery and then to AC again for use, you trim that down if you can go direct DC to battery. All those inversions have an energy loss associated. I’m interested to see how my system, will be given I already HAVE an operational and installed SE inverter.
How are they getting around the rapid shutdown requirements with their string system? Tesla doesn’t seem like the company to allow 3rd party equipment.
Thumbs up, Joe. Thanks for keeping up with the latest and sticking to facts - albeit fast-changing ones in this quickly-advancing field. I would like to see more content on both energy and cost savings, including payback, based on your actual customer data.
Thank you for your insightful videos. Are able to to include Discover AES and Simpliphi in your battery comparisons? I am shopping for complete off grid power solution.
Joe, Doesn’t appear you’ve answered the most critical flaw w/Powerwall vs Encharge; can the system perform dual function of replenishing battery charge simultaneously while powering home systems? In a off-grid or grid-down circumstance, if my Solaria PV cells are producing more current than is required by home, I want the excess current to recharge battery(s). Is this possible with new Powerwall +? Thank you for your informative videos.
Yes it can. The new Powerwall + is a DC-coupled system, which means all power is delivered to the battery bus. That means you can power the house, charge the battery, and sell back to the utility all simultaneously.
How is Tesla inverter complies with rapid shutdown requirements? How can they sell power wall only with tesla inverter if they don't have rsd electronics?
@@SolarSurge I didn't know they have such, thought they relay on solaredge in these cases. Would be happy to learn more about this, if you can mention/show this rsd solution in your next videos. Besides, I just have to say your videos are great and very informative, I have many years of industry experience and still learning something new every time you publish so thank you for that!
It now has been a year since this video was made. In August 2022 I finally received my 2 powerwalls after 1 and a half years after ordering them with my solar array.
Hi, I am getting two powerwalls, and the wait time would be around 2 to 3 months in my area (los angelse), do you think i would be getting the PLUS version, or the older version powerwall 2 but can be updated to the higher output with software update? thank you
@@justinsurpless4137 The inverter will allow the battery to charge to a certain point and then it will limit the solar output. With a DC-coupled system, solar input can be throttled by the inverter or charge controllers.
This is a great package, no doubt, but as an installer at a small solar company I can say we will definitely still need to use the Gateway 2 and Powerwall 2 in many of our installations because it offers a lot more flexibility. We install a large variety of systems, customized to fit customer needs, and so i feel like this new setup would limit our options. Also it make it more exclusive which I don’t understand. Powerwall 2 and Gateway 2 should still be available to upgrade customers current systems as well which will have different brands of inverters/ microinverters.
Agreed. I hope that Tesla will continue to manufacture new Powerwall II's and Gateway's but I'm not holding my breath. I think the game might be over later this year once the new Powerwall+ starts getting delivered to homes.
Thanks for the clear update. Question: When one purchases a solarglass roof and 2 or 3 new Powerwall + ‘s from Tesla does each Powerwall + come with its own inverter, or can a single inverter service more than one Powerwall +?
Great info Joe. So it sounds like this system would not work with our 10kW, 52 panel array with the Enphase M190 microinverters. The Enphase battery back up will also not work with the M190 microinverters, and I'm understanding that swapping out the microinverters for the updated style would be cost prohibitive. Any thoughts on the direction we go? Not looking to run AC during grid down situations, but we do have a well pump and sand mound septic. Thanks again.
Hi Hans. No problems. Just add a single Tesla Powerwall to the existing system. You can use Tesla Powerwall with just about any grid-tied system, so no need to upgrade the micro-inverters.
So doesn't all this make tesla powerwall more competitive with everyone else for all around battery storage like the Generac pwrcell & Enphase system?? Thanks in advance and keep up the good work
Joe, Great Info as Always! Thank you for this breaking news! My BIG question is: Do these new technologies changes to the PowerWall+ system mean they have addressed the micro-charging issues in a long term grid-down event? Cheers, Eric
Question - if the PowerWall+ can be charged via solar DC directly, does that mean that its roundtrip efficiency is better than 90% when charging from solar?
This seems like the bias is for using most of your own production -- which is logical if you have EVs and need to charge them daily. I can't help but wonder if that's the case, then why not just side step the grid tie in and use solar to charge EVs and say run A/C? A parallel 'off grid' setup looks a lot cheaper, less headaches and use that savings for more panels.
@@SolarSurge F-150 Lightning may allow me to cancel my (3) PowerWall only order (grandfathered order from Tesla in February ). But one question maybe no one knows the answer to is if the emergency power from F-150 can be recharged from solar?
@@RichardBurdette Yes they are working on this capability now. I expect the F-150 will have solar integration by the time the first units are shipping next year.
Elon's tweet said Tesla solar will only go with Powerwall, but that does not necessarily mean that non-Tesla solar CAN'T be paired with Powerwall. Do you know the answer to that? We have a brand-new 2021 Enphase system. It was supposed to include two Powerwalls but they weren't available. Now I'm starting to worry we'll never be able to get them if Tesla has changed their policy.
Thanks for the question. We are still getting a few Tesla Powerwall II's delivered to our warehouses. The lead times are just super long right now (8-9 months). But, yes, you can still pair a Tesla Powerwall II with Enphase micro-inverters through one of our installation partners.
this was a good move by Tesla to make these changes from a demand and architecture standpoint. Honestly I don't understand why it took to take so long for the architecture to be designed this way. The current or now old design seemed like a complicated mess.
The old design was geared towards inter-operability so that's why the AC-coupled architecture. This new designed fits Tesla's goal to control everything in-house.
@@SolarSurge I think this change is about a realization that the consumer was being penalized by the inefficient utility and permitting process. Tesla was delivering solutions, but consumer was facing huge delays in receiving the value as the utility refused or was slow in allowing turn on of the system. Sure there are tactical advantages for Tesla to more fully control the implementation of their systems, but I think its largely a result of the permitting, utility and supply/demand inefficiencies. And the old architecture was inefficient anyways.
the real question is how will this effect the customers that have PowerWalls with Micro Inverters and the older battery setup... seems like it just removes the Tesla gateway and replaces it with the Tesla String inverter.. Certainly not innovation..... I know I have had 2 PowerWalls on order for Months,, and am not sure how this will effect my solar upgrade... customer support and parts becomes a question... as far as string inverter. no thanks Especially there string inverter from the research I have done!
@@SolarSurge Third party... I am all enphase, and frankly love the products... been bullet proof.. if they cancelled and tried to push me to a string I would just do something different. I only choose this over enphase battery due to cost, and frankly the ability to work more seemless with my Tesla Car software during charging, but i get most if not all of that by using the span IO panel,, not to mention some other major advantages... this just seems like a step backwards to me in order to take down all the revenue.. and frankly to work easier with the solar roof that they always push string anyhow.. I have been a huge Tesla proponent, but this just smells bad to me.. this is about revenue (IE not Giving business to other Panel, and Inverter Manufacturers). its certainly not best for the customer. having both install options is the only thing that makes sense for customers. lets see if that is a concern.
@BMW R1200GS Adventure I agree my design is the power wall 2 with a generator connected , a span io panel so I don’t need to ever have an electrician involved with changes to what’s covered, and another 34 430 watt panels using enphase micro inverters. I love the setup. And then they started all this nonsense with more or less no integration with 3rd party inverters. Just seems odd considering Tesla has been pro open platform. Hoping we don’t have all the info yet and they will over the power wall 2, and the plus. Have 2 power walls on order for months. And then this announcement.
@BMW R1200GS Adventure here in the us we still need approval if we want to back feed the grid. Sounds like less of an issue than u gents have. But we have permits with our city, and then permits and potential agreements with the electric provider based on size of the array. Elon will still have this issue unless he does not expect grid tie. And in most us cases this would be a huge disadvantage if you over produce during more parts of the day than the battery can handle. Only gain I see is selling more Tesla solar and extra inverters at the customers expense. Taking choice away. He does gain the ability to mYbe turn up the solar before permitting. But in my area that is a no unless he shuts the grid off from the house and just runs from the battery. And in many locations we have rules against not being connected to the grid
@@fletch1371 Like your answer. I am in the same boat. Have enphase micro's (M110 & M250) & looking to put 2-3 Powerwall 2 in & a span version 2 panel. Was also thinking (like you) the tesla battery would work more seemless a Tesla Car software during charging. What do you recommend: Powerwall 2 via tesla solar partner (if they will still make them) or Enphase batteries system. Thanks...
I don't think people are fully realizing what this means in terms of Tesla as a viable solar option. I have an order in with them that does not include Powerwall - it is far too costly for my use case, a blackout of a few hours once every five years. I just emailed my project manager to see what was going on since they have gone dark on me for the last two weeks. Could it be that they are about to CANCEL on me? On their web site, the Powerwall is still an option and they are proposing one and not two as they did when I originally placed my order. $1.50 per watt for the panels and inverter becomes moot when you add in another 10, 15 or 20 grand in Powerwall costs. Since I am limited to a 10kW AC install in Florida at an estimated cost of $15k, my cost per watt will end up at $2.50 or more. I know you specialize in power backup solutions Joe but I am not a prepper and it has been 16 years since our last major, days long outage. A Powerwall is too costly for the benefit I would get. What you didn't say was that they had switched over to LiFePO batteries and would not warranty the product fully for Time of Use applications. That would be a major step forward as regards the utility of the device in areas where there are TOU rates in effect. Design wise, it sounds like there are now MPPT chargers feeding the battery and the inverter so that the battery doesn't have an efficiency loss because of DC->AC->DC conversion.
Hi Ed and thanks for writing in. If Tesla is not able to deliver for you, please reach out to me. We can help you get setup with solar only in Florida at a very competitive rate.
This is definitely an improvement on the previous version for off-grid. Now we still need to find out if they fixed the internet connectivity requirement.
I still see conflicting information on the capacity of the Powerwall+. While it says it can support 7.6kW output in grid-tied, but the BESS rating is still 5 kW continuous. Does that mean it can combine the solar input with battery supplement to get to 7.6 kW, but if the sun (or grid) is down, that the most it can deliver is 5kW? And for off grid, can one only get 9.6 kW of the sun is shining? If not, why do they have a BESS rating? BESS is Battery Energy Storage System. I do think there are some other advantages to Tesla for removing AC from the battery, it allows the battery to be used anywhere, and the inverter can deal with 50/60 Hz or 240 single vs split phase. Also, why the difference between on-grid vs off-grid? At the 80% NEC derating for continuous current, this would corresponding to the systems between a 40A breaker and a 50A breaker. If one had 4 Powerwalls in an on - grid situation, it would only feed 128A into the breaker panel, or 96A on battery, much less than the 160A a 200A panel can handle, but probably more than most non-inductive loads. Or is this limit more related to what can be fed back to the grid? Also, one presumably no longer needs a main breaker in the electrical panel.
Hi John. I am still researching it, but my understanding is that the BESS rating is for when the battery is being used daily for time-of-use offset with the utility. The off-grid rating of 9.6kW should be able to feed directly from the battery to loads within the house. More to follow...
dont care. they burned my bridge. i'd consider one as a replacement down the road, if they honor our original contract without a lawyer getting involved.
*Absolutely perfect for what we use . **Generater.Systems** for Our 500wt power station! Love it!!!!*
Thanks for the update I got my power wall + installed with enphase IQ7 micro inverters apparently they can mix without voiding any warranty. The tech called Tesla because of 3 bad breakers I had in the new breaker box. But I was amazed that’s all.
I think you can get the solar wity out the battery now. It lets you pick with or with out the battery pack
Thanks Joe.
Joe, Thanks for all the great concise info on your videos. You also have lots of great commenters that ask and answer questions I'm thinking. Still waiting for the larger Powerwall 3 that will also work off-grid without having to be connected to the internet to work.
Great video, as always. Thanks!
Nice shirt. 😉👍
(Sincerity)
The architecture change fits in with a very subtle statement he made during the Q1 earnings call.
Can you elaborate on that Karl?
@@lupofiasc0 Joe used to wear horizontal striped shirts that are not captured clearly in video. It was visually distracting. I suggested to him that he stay away from striped shirts and he has.
Thank you for the info
looks like a step backwards. Shade will kill the panels output. Seems like micro-inverters is still the way to go.
I'm curious how the Encharge's performance, with its ability to power the home from panels and battery at the same time, will match against the new DC-coupling of the Tesla, given the fact the Encharge is an AC-coupled system..
4 MPPT trackers
you guys rock
Can have a backup gen linked to the Tesla +
Nope. For generator support, try Enphase or Franklin Whole Home batteries.
Smashing through all your Tesla content with thumbs up 👍
Much appreciated
How much power can you get per 120vac leg ? I wonder if the surge applies to 240vac or both 120vac legs independently?
Ordered in march installed last week 12kw solar 4 powerwall plus though only 2 inverters
How do you feel about the SunPower SunVault?
Overpriced IMO
Hey Joe:
As an alternative what do you make of the PowerPod?
Thanks!
This is by Electriq out of San Leandro, Ca.
What about lg Resu. And new prime 16k solar batteries
Thanks Tony. I'll be doing a review of that soon.
I have to say I absolutely love the new 16h prime. In my opinion it’s the best product on the market.
I placed my order with Tesla about six weeks ago, and my Powerwall Plus/Powerwell 2 pair was installed this week. I'm curious how it works with two of them together.
Great. Please let us know how it works out.
I assume this new Powerwall+ can still charge from the grid in Stormwatch mode?
Yes that shouldn't change.
So is this multiple powerwalls on one inverter ? Or 2 per inverter ?
These specs are for a single inverter and single battery setup.
I think Matt is asking if you can end up with multiple Powerwalls per inverter or if it is going to always be one to one now. For example, my 16.32kWhr system about to be installed has 2 Tesla Inverter's & 4 Powerwall 2s. I will contact my rep to see if I'm now going to get the Powerwall + units instead & if thoae 4 will still be paired with 2 Tesla Inverter's (I suspect yes) or instead now have 4 inverters (one for each Powerwall).
@@christopherm.6094 These are all good questions and I don't have the answer just now. Please let us know your experience once the install takes place.
@@christopherm.6094 I’m working w/Tesla on 12 panel / 2 PWs (AC coupled) / 1 inverter sys. Permitting complete next week. Two questions for you. How comfortable are you with using Tesla’s traditional string inverter? What do you think of Tesla’s “old” AC coupled PWs vs new Powerwall+ DC coupling?
Very timely. So, would 2 or more PW+ work for the heavy inductive loads you mentioned the Generac or Enphase were good for? Thank you.
Generally speaking 3 units will handle larger loads. With some of these batteries that have higher surge capacity you can get away with 2 or even 1. Every system is so unique. Generac offers one of the highest performing products however you can not stack multiple units together making it very limited. It’s also not recommend to do whole home backup with the Generac PWRCELL. The system was very much designed for partial home back up. Enphase makes a great product. The Encharge 10 has half the output of the Generac PWRCELL yet the system is modular and more batteries can be added in parallel to output what ever is needed.
I would disagree. The Generac system is very much designed for whole home backup using automatic intelligent load management. Please see here: ruclips.net/video/946072_MzUY/видео.html
Does it still shut itself down, if it can't phone home?
Still researching this.
Thanks for the update Joe. I am curious about the 9.6kW in-rush power availability - how does this compare with other batteries?
Hi Tim and thanks for writing in. This is pretty tops. Only Generac PWRCell has higher surge power at 11kW.
Isn’t there a way to delay a compressor from the motor to minimize any power surge?
Larry
@@mafosa8519 Yes, it's called a variable speed controller but that requires much more work.
To be fair the PWRCELL can only output 11,000 watts with two batteries. The new SolarEdge EnergyHub Max can do 10,000 cont. Also the Enphase Encharge is modular so you can compete with multiple batteries.
@Joe Ordia, Improved Tesla battery. Great! Improved Tesla String Inverter?
Nothing new on the inverter specs for now...
I have a question if it's possible. You know that when the batería goes to "0" at night due the high consume the system automatically shutdown. Some time don't go up with the panels at the morning and one have to either jumpstart the envoy or reset the battery in order to get the batería life again. It's the same with the powerwall+ or the inverter restart the battery once the sun comes up in the morning? (Excuse my english)
how do you stack this against the enphase? do you still recommend enphase over this new unit?
Good questions. I'll do another comparison once I know more about the new Powerwall+ in real world operation.
I have exactly the same questions. Thanks for asking, Ruchit. Joe, after hearing the Powerwall 2's inability to regulate solar output, I was all but sold on Enphase. Given Tesla's inverter is still a string inverter, doesn't the Tesla inverter/Powerwall+ combo still lack the ability to regulate solar output like an Enphase system?
@@edhuebbe7900 The new Powerwall+ DC-coupled architecture does allow throttling of solar output. The inverter controls the solar output in this architecture.
Joe,
Another question my brother..., in a long grid-down situation, does the new Tesla PowerWalls+ system allow me in a back feed the home and or the PowerWall with a generator?
Cheers,
Eric
No details on that yet. I'll keep you posted.
@@SolarSurge Thanks so much!
Hi Joe, what happens if one or two panels go bad? Will the string be affected and the system shuts down??
With DC string inverter setup will there be an issue shading for an entire string if one panel or roof tile is shaded?
Yes this is a risk. However, modern solar panels are built to mitigate shading right at the solar panel level so the losses should be minimal compared to previous generations of solar panels.
ruclips.net/video/Sm0NePRWV9Y/видео.html check this out it will explain how this isn't much of an issue anymore in detail
I am having a 15.12kW + 3 PW system installed at my home this week. PW are back ordered I'm told until august so the installer is wiring in everything and enabling solar only for now. Given the increased 9.6kW peak power output of these new powerwalls I'm worried whether I need to increase wire gauge and breaker size, otherwise I don't see how the system will handle the 50% additional power after Elon's promised PW firmware upgrade that increases peak power.
Joe - is there any chance you could please find out using your Tesla contacts whether new systems should be sized with higher capacity wiring (6awg?) and breakers (50A?)? Thanks
Question I just got mine installed still need inspection and all the other stuff would make any sense asking for these new ones or just keep the one I have thanks
I would just keep it. Tesla's contracts are rock solid and I doubt you could ask for an upgrade after the fact.
Hi Joe - How would you compare the Tesla PowerWall+ with the SunPower SunVault?
Powerwall+ wins an all dimensions.
Can Solar Surge offer service for People outside of USA ?
No I'm afraid not right now.
@@SolarSurge Do you use messaging systems like whatsapp or telegram to reach customers? I'd like to have a more private conversation. I've used your website to ask for a quote but I think it'll not be possible since you don't service outside the US. But maybe, we can find other possibilities to do business together.
Joe, I just went PV, all installed and waiting for Utility meter and final "ok". REC panel, IQ7 microinverters, Tesla gateway and 1 Powerwall II. I don't want to use my battery at night because I don't use much and Grid is cheap at night. I can't seem to find any setting in Tesla app that will configure my system for this. It only wants to charge in the daytime and use battery at night. Can you help?
There should be an option on the Tesla app to set the battery for Backup Mode only.
Why do they say soft start if it is just increased surge capacity with Caps? Soft start would be a triac or a way to have a ramped ac voltage, this seems like it would be a dedicated output
Good feedback. We will update this on a future video when we know more.
I’ve had a grid tied Powerwall 2 for about 1 1/2 years for load shifting and partial home backup and like it very much. I just heard about the PW+ today. A couple of thoughts:
- Looks like this will lock out the microinverter (i.e. Enphase) style systems. DC PV inputs only?
- If they are going back to multiple stringed PV arrays with a single integrated controller, are locations with partial shade problems out of luck?
- The installation wiring does look simplified, which is a plus, as is the new Emergency Shutdown switch.
- The Gateway is a ‘Gateway 2’ for the PW+. We’ll have to see how it differs.
- A substitute for the ‘Gateway 2’ is the ‘Backup Switch’ socket that mounts between the meter and meter box. I know my utility (Southern California Edison) doesn’t allow this configuration currently.
- There is also a new ‘Solar Shutdown Device’ that goes between every 10 Tesla solar roof modules and the PW+ to provide rapid shutdown safety (and for every 3 Hanwha Q.PEAK DUO PV panels). Another sign that microinverters need not apply.
- I don’t see any signs that the battery stacks separately, so apparently you’d stack whole PW+ units (seems like that’ll increase costs of added storage)
Great questions here. I agree that it looks like micro-inverters are out now. This is a straight DC-coupled string inverter system. Not sure about battery stacking either. We will provide more video updates and Tesla releases more product details.
Do you have any insight into Powerwall+ battery chemistry and cycle life warranty? Have Tesla moved to LFP chemistry?
We will continue to track this.
This is super interesting. Tesla installed my solar in October, I decided to order a powerwall almost immediately afterward. FINALLY as of April my project is “ready for install.” With the advent of powerwall+ I called them and they are doing a redesign, linking the powerwall in series ahead of my main panel giving me a whole home backup. Now, I have a Solar Edge Inverter. I don’t know what will happen with that, will they offer to swap it with theirs? At what cost? Will I be able to get the whole home backup but without the direct DC charging of the battery?
I’m excited to see what the new design shows…
Please let us know how it works out.
@soundanswer - How many panels? How many PWs? Which SE Inverter? Very interested on how this turns out. I’m in negotiation now with Tesla for 12 panel, 2 PW system with either SE 3.8 Inverter or traditional Tesla string inverter. Do you have SE’s individual paneling monitoring?
@@gilbrook I have 14 panels, 4.76kw total with a SE inverter. The order is for one powerwall. Tesla HEAVILY discouraged full access to the inverter app, so I can only see what the Tesla app shows. There are other folks near me in Illinois that got Tesla to open up access to the inverter login. I would like to have that because I’m curious, but it’s not a deal breaker.
One thing that was interesting was during my install/inspection the master electrician pointed to the monitoring clips and said “we’re moving away from these” - which makes sense now with the current (new) configuration where everything flows through powerwall. I think ALL the monitoring will be more accurate.
@@soundanswer Thx for your response. Very timely. Permitting likely complete this week. Hope to complete and accept my Tesla layout next week. I’ve requested SE 3.8 Inverter because of early morning shading from adjacent higher roof and late afternoon shading from treed lot. SE panel monitoring not a deal breaker for me either. So your install completed and operational? My primary object in going solar is to keep furnace on in winter during grid failure. Your objective? Your reasoning for single PW? Did you get new Powerwall Plus?
@@gilbrook Yeah we have installed since October and up and running since December. I canceled my powerwall initially because of the the cost incentive not being there. (My utility gives a 1:1 kWh credit, so the grid is essentially my “battery”) However, the day after our install we lost grid power immediately after a major recording session, and then then next day we lost it again DURING a recording session. I immediately said “f this” and went and asked Tesla if we could put the Powerwall on. (My system is small and doesn’t produce really enough to fill two powerwalls in a given day) - I didn’t want to pay all that just to have AC during grid outages. But I really need to make sure our internet connection and recording stays up during commercial recording sessions. So that is why I want the backup. Tesla is reconfiguring my design now for the powerwall so it it will be a powerwall+ and have whole home back up with just one powerwall. One thing to consider on SE inverter vs. Tesla, is the direct DC charging to battery that you get with the Tesla inverter. Rather than going through two inversions DC to AC back to DC for the battery and then to AC again for use, you trim that down if you can go direct DC to battery. All those inversions have an energy loss associated. I’m interested to see how my system, will be given I already HAVE an operational and installed SE inverter.
How are they getting around the rapid shutdown requirements with their string system? Tesla doesn’t seem like the company to allow 3rd party equipment.
They use a single rapid shutdown device for each string on the roof.
Will there be any product updates from Enphase to tackle the power wall +, or existing product line competitive enough against the power wall +.
Good questions. We will see. Right now, this is all on paper. For installation today, the Enphase battery is my top choice.
@@SolarSurge Thank you very much.
Thumbs up, Joe. Thanks for keeping up with the latest and sticking to facts - albeit fast-changing ones in this quickly-advancing field. I would like to see more content on both energy and cost savings, including payback, based on your actual customer data.
I love Tesla Even Tho I Don't Own Any Tesla Products
Same fam
Cosign
Thank you for your insightful videos. Are able to to include Discover AES and Simpliphi in your battery comparisons? I am shopping for complete off grid power solution.
I have heard good things about SimpliPhi.
@@SolarSurge Thank you very much Joe. How about Discover AES?
Joe, Doesn’t appear you’ve answered the most critical flaw w/Powerwall vs Encharge; can the system perform dual function of replenishing battery charge simultaneously while powering home systems? In a off-grid or grid-down circumstance, if my Solaria PV cells are producing more current than is required by home, I want the excess current to recharge battery(s). Is this possible with new Powerwall +?
Thank you for your informative videos.
Yes it can. The new Powerwall + is a DC-coupled system, which means all power is delivered to the battery bus. That means you can power the house, charge the battery, and sell back to the utility all simultaneously.
How is Tesla inverter complies with rapid shutdown requirements?
How can they sell power wall only with tesla inverter if they don't have rsd electronics?
Tesla uses proprietary RSD devices on each string on the roof.
@@SolarSurge I didn't know they have such, thought they relay on solaredge in these cases. Would be happy to learn more about this, if you can mention/show this rsd solution in your next videos. Besides, I just have to say your videos are great and very informative, I have many years of industry experience and still learning something new every time you publish so thank you for that!
It now has been a year since this video was made. In August 2022 I finally received my 2 powerwalls after 1 and a half years after ordering them with my solar array.
Hi, I am getting two powerwalls, and the wait time would be around 2 to 3 months in my area (los angelse), do you think i would be getting the PLUS version, or the older version powerwall 2 but can be updated to the higher output with software update? thank you
It's hard to say. Tesla generally writes their contracts with vague language that allows them to make equipment substitution without your consent.
From what I can tell from the technical documentation, the Powerwall + is not actually dc coupled
Have you ever reviewed Blue Planet Ion? Supposed to be a good solution for off grid.
Thanks. I'll take a look at that.
Hey Joe, you had mentioned that Tesla had that 5 minute shutoff when the batteries were full. Does the + eliminate that?
Yes, the Powerwall+ DC battery eliminates the solar shutoff when batteries are full.
@@SolarSurge So what happens during an outage if your production exceeds your home consumption?
@@justinsurpless4137 The inverter will allow the battery to charge to a certain point and then it will limit the solar output. With a DC-coupled system, solar input can be throttled by the inverter or charge controllers.
This is a great package, no doubt, but as an installer at a small solar company I can say we will definitely still need to use the Gateway 2 and Powerwall 2 in many of our installations because it offers a lot more flexibility. We install a large variety of systems, customized to fit customer needs, and so i feel like this new setup would limit our options. Also it make it more exclusive which I don’t understand. Powerwall 2 and Gateway 2 should still be available to upgrade customers current systems as well which will have different brands of inverters/ microinverters.
Agreed. I hope that Tesla will continue to manufacture new Powerwall II's and Gateway's but I'm not holding my breath. I think the game might be over later this year once the new Powerwall+ starts getting delivered to homes.
Thanks for the clear update. Question: When one purchases a solarglass roof and 2 or 3 new Powerwall + ‘s from Tesla does each Powerwall + come with its own inverter, or can a single inverter service more than one Powerwall +?
Good question. I will give an update on this once more information is available.
Seems to me that this change could mean that a panel failure or even partial shade is going to cause significant issues.
Great info Joe. So it sounds like this system would not work with our 10kW, 52 panel array with the Enphase M190 microinverters. The Enphase battery back up will also not work with the M190 microinverters, and I'm understanding that swapping out the microinverters for the updated style would be cost prohibitive. Any thoughts on the direction we go? Not looking to run AC during grid down situations, but we do have a well pump and sand mound septic. Thanks again.
Hi Hans. No problems. Just add a single Tesla Powerwall to the existing system. You can use Tesla Powerwall with just about any grid-tied system, so no need to upgrade the micro-inverters.
So doesn't all this make tesla powerwall more competitive with everyone else for all around battery storage like the Generac pwrcell & Enphase system??
Thanks in advance and keep up the good work
Yes this new upgrade definitely makes it more competitive. We will see how the rollout goes.
Joe,
Great Info as Always! Thank you for this breaking news!
My BIG question is:
Do these new technologies changes to the PowerWall+ system mean they have addressed the micro-charging issues in a long term grid-down event?
Cheers,
Eric
Yes they do. The micro-cycling should be a thing of the past.
Question - if the PowerWall+ can be charged via solar DC directly, does that mean that its roundtrip efficiency is better than 90% when charging from solar?
If this is a new product and only sold as a complete system they aren’t they using their new solar tiles rather than panels?
This seems like the bias is for using most of your own production -- which is logical if you have EVs and need to charge them daily.
I can't help but wonder if that's the case, then why not just side step the grid tie in and use solar to charge EVs and say run A/C? A parallel 'off grid' setup looks a lot cheaper, less headaches and use that savings for more panels.
unfortunately this can only be done with tesla and in house. I could use other sunpower panels with this
In the uk 🇬🇧 we can still buy the powerwall 2 without Tesla solar
That's good to know. Are you buying direct from Tesla or via a third party installation partner?
Short supply with Tesla seems to be a problem.
Yes, and with Ford's announcement last week, I don't see people needing to install Powerwall anymore for backup purposes.
@@SolarSurge F-150 Lightning may allow me to cancel my (3) PowerWall only order (grandfathered order from Tesla in February ). But one question maybe no one knows the answer to is if the emergency power from F-150 can be recharged from solar?
@@RichardBurdette Yes they are working on this capability now. I expect the F-150 will have solar integration by the time the first units are shipping next year.
Joe at the End of video he like Fuck Tesla but kinda love them too 😂
Very helpful...over reviewers are garbage.
Elon's tweet said Tesla solar will only go with Powerwall, but that does not necessarily mean that non-Tesla solar CAN'T be paired with Powerwall. Do you know the answer to that? We have a brand-new 2021 Enphase system. It was supposed to include two Powerwalls but they weren't available. Now I'm starting to worry we'll never be able to get them if Tesla has changed their policy.
Thanks for the question. We are still getting a few Tesla Powerwall II's delivered to our warehouses. The lead times are just super long right now (8-9 months). But, yes, you can still pair a Tesla Powerwall II with Enphase micro-inverters through one of our installation partners.
this was a good move by Tesla to make these changes from a demand and architecture standpoint. Honestly I don't understand why it took to take so long for the architecture to be designed this way. The current or now old design seemed like a complicated mess.
The old design was geared towards inter-operability so that's why the AC-coupled architecture. This new designed fits Tesla's goal to control everything in-house.
@@SolarSurge I think this change is about a realization that the consumer was being penalized by the inefficient utility and permitting process. Tesla was delivering solutions, but consumer was facing huge delays in receiving the value as the utility refused or was slow in allowing turn on of the system. Sure there are tactical advantages for Tesla to more fully control the implementation of their systems, but I think its largely a result of the permitting, utility and supply/demand inefficiencies. And the old architecture was inefficient anyways.
the real question is how will this effect the customers that have PowerWalls with Micro Inverters and the older battery setup... seems like it just removes the Tesla gateway and replaces it with the Tesla String inverter.. Certainly not innovation..... I know I have had 2 PowerWalls on order for Months,, and am not sure how this will effect my solar upgrade... customer support and parts becomes a question... as far as string inverter. no thanks Especially there string inverter from the research I have done!
Not sure. Perhaps they will cancel the order and replace it with this. Did you order direct from Tesla or through a third-party dealer?
@@SolarSurge Third party... I am all enphase, and frankly love the products... been bullet proof.. if they cancelled and tried to push me to a string I would just do something different. I only choose this over enphase battery due to cost, and frankly the ability to work more seemless with my Tesla Car software during charging, but i get most if not all of that by using the span IO panel,, not to mention some other major advantages... this just seems like a step backwards to me in order to take down all the revenue.. and frankly to work easier with the solar roof that they always push string anyhow.. I have been a huge Tesla proponent, but this just smells bad to me.. this is about revenue (IE not Giving business to other Panel, and Inverter Manufacturers). its certainly not best for the customer. having both install options is the only thing that makes sense for customers. lets see if that is a concern.
@BMW R1200GS Adventure I agree my design is the power wall 2 with a generator connected , a span io panel so I don’t need to ever have an electrician involved with changes to what’s covered, and another 34 430 watt panels using enphase micro inverters. I love the setup. And then they started all this nonsense with more or less no integration with 3rd party inverters. Just seems odd considering Tesla has been pro open platform. Hoping we don’t have all the info yet and they will over the power wall 2, and the plus. Have 2 power walls on order for months. And then this announcement.
@BMW R1200GS Adventure here in the us we still need approval if we want to back feed the grid. Sounds like less of an issue than u gents have. But we have permits with our city, and then permits and potential agreements with the electric provider based on size of the array. Elon will still have this issue unless he does not expect grid tie. And in most us cases this would be a huge disadvantage if you over produce during more parts of the day than the battery can handle. Only gain I see is selling more Tesla solar and extra inverters at the customers expense. Taking choice away. He does gain the ability to mYbe turn up the solar before permitting. But in my area that is a no unless he shuts the grid off from the house and just runs from the battery. And in many locations we have rules against not being connected to the grid
@@fletch1371 Like your answer. I am in the same boat. Have enphase micro's (M110 & M250) & looking to put 2-3 Powerwall 2 in & a span version 2 panel. Was also thinking (like you) the tesla battery would work more seemless a Tesla Car software during charging. What do you recommend: Powerwall 2 via tesla solar partner (if they will still make them) or Enphase batteries system. Thanks...
I don't think people are fully realizing what this means in terms of Tesla as a viable solar option. I have an order in with them that does not include Powerwall - it is far too costly for my use case, a blackout of a few hours once every five years. I just emailed my project manager to see what was going on since they have gone dark on me for the last two weeks. Could it be that they are about to CANCEL on me? On their web site, the Powerwall is still an option and they are proposing one and not two as they did when I originally placed my order.
$1.50 per watt for the panels and inverter becomes moot when you add in another 10, 15 or 20 grand in Powerwall costs. Since I am limited to a 10kW AC install in Florida at an estimated cost of $15k, my cost per watt will end up at $2.50 or more.
I know you specialize in power backup solutions Joe but I am not a prepper and it has been 16 years since our last major, days long outage. A Powerwall is too costly for the benefit I would get.
What you didn't say was that they had switched over to LiFePO batteries and would not warranty the product fully for Time of Use applications. That would be a major step forward as regards the utility of the device in areas where there are TOU rates in effect.
Design wise, it sounds like there are now MPPT chargers feeding the battery and the inverter so that the battery doesn't have an efficiency loss because of DC->AC->DC conversion.
Hi Ed and thanks for writing in. If Tesla is not able to deliver for you, please reach out to me. We can help you get setup with solar only in Florida at a very competitive rate.
Seems like Tesla missed the boat on this one it's like they aren't serious about home solar or off grid use.
This is definitely an improvement on the previous version for off-grid. Now we still need to find out if they fixed the internet connectivity requirement.
@@SolarSurge amen to that Joe!
Also that nasty micro-charging issue.
@@erickessler6094 Yes, the micro-cycling issue is now gone!
@@SolarSurge OH WOW Outstanding !
I still see conflicting information on the capacity of the Powerwall+. While it says it can support 7.6kW output in grid-tied, but the BESS rating is still 5 kW continuous. Does that mean it can combine the solar input with battery supplement to get to 7.6 kW, but if the sun (or grid) is down, that the most it can deliver is 5kW? And for off grid, can one only get 9.6 kW of the sun is shining? If not, why do they have a BESS rating? BESS is Battery Energy Storage System.
I do think there are some other advantages to Tesla for removing AC from the battery, it allows the battery to be used anywhere, and the inverter can deal with 50/60 Hz or 240 single vs split phase.
Also, why the difference between on-grid vs off-grid? At the 80% NEC derating for continuous current, this would corresponding to the systems between a 40A breaker and a 50A breaker. If one had 4 Powerwalls in an on - grid situation, it would only feed 128A into the breaker panel, or 96A on battery, much less than the 160A a 200A panel can handle, but probably more than most non-inductive loads. Or is this limit more related to what can be fed back to the grid? Also, one presumably no longer needs a main breaker in the electrical panel.
Hi John. I am still researching it, but my understanding is that the BESS rating is for when the battery is being used daily for time-of-use offset with the utility. The off-grid rating of 9.6kW should be able to feed directly from the battery to loads within the house. More to follow...
Ah, battery pack without built in charger and inverter, now we are getting somewhere
Unfortunately, I don't think they'll be selling the battery for use with other inverters by third-party installers, but we'll see...
dont care. they burned my bridge. i'd consider one as a replacement down the road, if they honor our original contract without a lawyer getting involved.
Yes the 'partner' relationship has also been damaged. I'll keep you all posted how things shake out.
Tesla has invested a lot in other countries, Australia as an example. So no America first as Trump would say.