Aptera Launch Webinar reactions
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
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Well to deal with the lack of DCFC I added the tent to my launch spec, to camp out at chargers.
Have you ever bought a regular tent? Do you know how much tent you can get for $600?
Thanks for ironic sarcasm. I needed a laugh.
I got the impression adding the tent made it no longer the launch edition. When I saved it with the tent (and dog divider), the launch edition button was still available
🤣 At least there's a good chance of a coffee machine nearby...😁
Wish they would have announced V2L so you could make your own coffee while camping to wait for your vehicle to charge.
Aptera, if you read this, please do another, unscripted live stream and openly discuss the elephant in the room with the community. We are your most passionate fans - show us your listening and let's work towards a solution together. I'm sure more people would pay a couple grand more to have either DC fast charging - even 50kW - or a 600 mile range battery. It's clear that so many of us that have been following Aptera for so long want to roadtrip this fantastic vehicle, enjoy it's efficiency, and share it with our friends and family. If you do this right, you'll win over so many more people and really make an impression with this launch.
Breaking news (1 hour before replying here) Aptera heard the complaints and are fitting DCFC to every launch Aptera, on the Aptera youtube channel...
Regarding fast DC, remember that their top priority right now should be to get just *some* cars out on the streets to normal people through regular sale. That would be their largest milestone ever and is super important for a startup, to prove that it's not just fluffy ideas and digital renderings. If they can find just 100 people who don't need fast DC, then that's good enough for a launch edition.
This is good for the majority of the 40K reservation holders. The cancellations from deal-breakers will bring a lot of people forward in the queue. The intended first 5000 units will be gone as fast as they produce them. The only losers will be the few who will cancel. All the others, including Aptera Motors themselves, will be winners. I am ready to bet on this.
They were looking to start production in late 2022... Then the beginning of 2023. An American built car company. Then it was outsourcing of parts as well as production from all corners of the globe and what has to be the most ridiculous supply chain ever conceived. Now they're talking about tool steel for composite parts 🤔 shipped in from Italy? Why not Gary, Indiana or Cleveland, Ohio🤷? The more they talk, the more doubts I have and this revolutionary idea coming to fruition. Now we are looking at a late 2023 time frame before production begins 🤔.
@@adimchionyenadum2962 the design is great. The idea is great. The material sourcing, supply chain and manufacturing??? Doesn't seem so great. I think the only people canceling their orders will be the people who don't have faith in a lofty plan/production execution. People are hungry for this but it is no different than if they were hungry for food and wanting a meal. The restaurant is fabulous, the tables are well dressed, the music is perfect, the wait staff looks impeccable. The food listed on the menu is to die for and is what everyone wants. People are ready to eat... And it can be the greatest chef in the kitchen whoever touched food.... But if he doesn't put it on a plate, people are going to go elsewhere. The waitstaff coming out and talking to people telling them that the wait will be 15 minutes, half hour, 1 hour, 2 hours, a week....You can't be satisfied on how something looks, all it promises to be, or how hungry "you" are for it. Anticipation does not satisfy.
So....we will see... I'm less hopeful now that I was a year ago. Less hungry as well. Starting to notice that the wallpaper is peeling, the wait staff have stains on their clothing, the tablecloth is actually a sheet and I am suspecting that the chef is drunk....
@@bsrcat1 More like 2024. I believe they said they would not start getting the bodies from Italy until nine months from now.
It will be way more than a hundred, tens of thousands but a lot of people do sound like they are cancelling. I never bought mine for road trips, just local trips and to the beach and mountains, both of which are less than 250 miles from me. I think a lot of people just wanted to show up in this thing in the driveway of a friend or relative than lives far away.
I understand that to some people not having level 3 charging is not a big deal, but it is essential in my opinion. I'm a huge aptera fan and perhaps the youngest I've ever met (17). Even with 400-600 miles of range you might want to stop so you can make it home above 20% (which we often do in our model y) and if it takes 1 hour to get the range that is a huge inconvenience. It takes aptera from being a main vehicle to ONLY a second vehicle, at least, in my opinion. I was looking forward to eventually getting this as my first vehicle, but now I'm less sure until it gets level 3 charging and a heat pump...still a big fan, but...
I also was told that some vehicles are still getting level 3 charging, but im confused about that?
@@joelroth3651 They’re offering it as a future upgrade - if you get the launch edition, they’ll install DCFC hardware when it’s time for your [enter odometer reading here] mile checkup. Which makes perfect sense because DCFC hardware is complicated and if they installed it at launch it would force them to increase prices to out-of-reach levels for most customers.
Yah DC fast charging is very important to me. I have the 600mile 66k version ordered. Even with 500+ miles you will actually get is not enough to be a road trip car. I travel to okc 913 miles. And Golden 1043 miles to visit my brothers and sisters. Very often. Always straight through. Even if I spent the night charging somewhere. Is there any where you can hook up to 240 for the whole night? Wouldn't make it to Golden. Actually only stopped overnight once in the 23 times I've driven there. And never stopped on any of the 30 or so trips to Oklahoma city. Pretty much ruins it for me. Probably still buy it if will be still able to be used for v2h as backup battery for my house. If it doesn't do that. Will be pretty much useless to me. Cool car but useless. My brother was going to buy one as backup for his house too. So he would walk away also.
Aptera really needs to connect with Exro Technologies as soon as possible. The Exro Coil Driver (motor controller) would improve Aptera's already very efficient powertrain AND would allow for AC (not DC) fast charging (which NACS supports). It would involve changing the wire bundling so Elaphe would have to be involved as well. Basically, they have to split the motor wiring bundles into 12 groups instead of just 3. Then there's NO NEED for an onboard charger at all. It actually simplifies the power train.
For transparency, I'm invested in both Aptera and Exro and believe they could have a symbiotic relationship. Exro is just entering the production phase this year, as is, hopefully, Aptera so their initial production volumes could be in sync. I tried getting someone at Exro to reach out to Aptera months ago, but I don't have any contacts at either company.
I hope someone here will help make the connection between Aptera and Exro (and Elaphe).
I live in Canada (so I'm not expecting to get to the 64km of solar every day) and I would like to road trip my Aptera cross the whole country, so fast charging does matter to me.
I get that in the nominal case DCFC may be "fine" for many use cases, but it's extra margin that I require personally. Sometimes shit happens; extreme weather causes you to lose efficiency, you forget to plug it, family emergency requires you to travel on demand, etc.. I was hoping to use an Aptera as my only vehicle, but without DCFC I'll have to wait for future versions.
@John Collins, there are so many comments here that reflect my sentiments, including yours. In my case, I did plan to use it for biannual, long 1,400 mile trips up/down west coast Interstate 5. Like Steve and others commenting here, the L2 charging limit was both my biggest surprise and let down.
Despite this, I switched to the Launch Edition because my original choice was exactly the Launch config, minus the AWD. As for the planned I5 trips, I had always planned stop overs at selected KOAs after a day's drive (350-450 miles). Most KOA's are adding Level 2 (7kwh) charging. With an overnight stay and 8 hrs charge, I'll be full for the next day's drive. For stretches that are over 350 miles, (e.g.: LA to Sacramento) I'll likely have to plan a 2 hour long lunch stop/break on a L2 charge for an added 100 miles (most likely somewhere around Kettleman City, CA).
I echo your sentiments on having a vehicle that is ready to go at full capacity all of the time. Many of family members are across the state. You never know when you just need to go somewhere.
People are creatures of habit. People come home and before they leave garage plug in their EVs. That's why in the future there will not be off peak electric hours as everyone will plug in every evening.
I have seen this at work. We have 12 Charge Point chargers at work and my employer covers charging costs.
Every EV owner at work (especially the Tesla owners) regardless of their commuting distance or remaining battery range, hog all chargers every single day. That's just human nature.
Adoption of EVs and transferring the energy used from fossil fueled cars to the electrical grid will be a huge challenge in the future.
This past summer with the "Please don't charger your EVs because of the lack of grid capacity and the rolling blackouts" in California is just an example of the changes in off peak electrical demand that might be coming.
@@byrnc927 I hear you that transition will have challenges, but I have to say think it's important that we reject the idea of an "arduous march" that humanity must embark on atone for it's sins against nature. There are collective action problems, but technology is the margin at which a real difference can be made. We have solutions, we were on track for a carbon neutral grid by 1991. We closed that door.
@@JohnboyCollins
The transition for all 2 trillion driven miles of ICE cars in the US to be replaced by all current generation EVs by 2050, will require an additional 2200 Megawatts placed on the grid every 5 - 6 weeks starting today.
That estimate does not include shipping, rail, or truck travel.
That's a large dual unit nuclear power plant,
or 16,000 to 20,000 acres of solar panels,
or 1100 windmills installed every 5 - 6 weeks between now and 2050.
Nuclear's certainly not part of that mix. Each nuke plant of that size takes 8 to 10 years to license, build, and commission even under perfect conditions.
Using Solar alone would require the equivalent acreage of New Hampshire and Vermont combined covered with solar panels.
At night there is no solar. Maybe use batteries at night?
If you want to use giant magic batteries to cover electric loads at night charged from solar, A solar farm about the size of Lake Michigan should provide sufficient margin to recharge those batteries during the day while the New Hampshire/Vermont size solar farm covers the daytime load.
If you use wind, about 270,000 windmills will be needed. Along with individual cabling and transformers.
If the wind isn't blowing that could be a problem.
I forgot the equipment installed for this transition will all require replacement every 25 - 30 years.
@@byrnc927 I'm not a energy expert, but I've not seen a solar/wind/battery solution that makes sense to me on paper. It requires about 300x as much material and drastically more land than nuclear, and it's not even clear whether it can work. I don't see how solar+wind+batteries is comparable to nuclear in terms of environmental impact. It's drastically worse.
Something like John Bucknell's proposal is the only thing I've seen that's remotely plausible for net-negative in 40 years. With high temperature MSRs paired with a turbo induction heat pump we can do everything; produce hydrogen or synthetic fuel at 51% efficiency, produce electricity at 51% efficiency, do desalination, capture carbon from sea water to produce methanol (from which you can produce plastics or even gasoline) , and you can economically produce steel and concrete (or carbon fiber).
That said, Bucknell is now dedicating his efforts to space-based solar, so we shall see. But when you consider the capacity factor of solar, the build out would have to be absolutely insane to support a modern economy. And even if you did at the end of the day it's just uglier and worse for the environment.
Nice review of the Launch webinar. I still have my fingers crossed for an earlier delivery to Canada.
A thought about so much exposed CF - it'll be a bit tinny in there without something to dampen the reflected sound - maybe the diamond pattern on the inner hatch is designed to scatter noise into the cargo floor, which could be carpeted with a thicker sound deadening material?
I thought the 3d pattern on the inner hatch is to improve stiffness of it. We don't want these solar cells on the hatch to bend when it is opened/closed.
Yes, I am also wondering how much road noise will come through to the interior cabin.
I love Aptera and was super excited for it, but without DC fast charging it will be very inconvenient to use for the longer trips I make. I have a hard time seeing the point of buying a car with 400 miles of range if driving that far will leave you stranded overnight. I wanted the 1000miler, but if it will take 20 hours to recharge then forget it. Fingers crossed they add DCFC before my order comes up (in 2025, 2026?).
Yup. The launch edition is a commuter vehicle. Aptera needs to get it into the hands of as many people as possible who commute as their primary use case. Local driving is my primary use case, but the width (we still don’t know the widest width when both doors are open) and the poor usability of the controls and instrumentation break the launch edition deal for me. I’m starting to worry about my investment.
This is the launch version, it's not the only one and they aren't tossing people's configurations. I'm not too bugged about these specs.
For me, road trips were not a priority to me, I don't want to always look for a charger, that whole concern is gone for my everyday use.
I am with you about “Launch Edition” as a disclaimer. For the vast majority of reservation holders (after 5 or 6 thousand in the queue) the Launch Edition specs need not have any impact at all. We are all going to have to wait our turn anyway and by then all the planned 5000 Launch Editions will have shipped to others and we will just have to see what is available then.
Looking forward to my Aptera, switched to the launch edition.
All this wining about DCFC who.
99% of the time it will be used for local driving.
At 400 miles for a long trip is great, plug in at a camp ground, ready to go in the morning, repeat as necessary.
DCFC just adds cost, weight, more complex cooling and makes the battery smaller.
Wait until you need to go 450 miles
@@chuckswackhammer4499
Poor planing on your part will not be a problem for me.
No DC fast-charging? This may be a deal breaker for me. I was hoping for a 500 miles per hour DC fast charging. I reserved the 600 mile version and now I might cancel my reservation. The Aptera would be my only vehicle and I do cross country drives about twice a year. This is a huge disappointment! I reside in an apartment without overnight EV charging and so this Aptera with a possible 40 mile a day solar charging would've been perfect for me. No other options out there. The Aptera was it and I was so excited to have one. Upsetting!
No need to cancel, yet. The 600 mile version is probably at least 4 years away delivery. Surely, by then they will have DCFC. Or be out of business.
I don't see why you should cancel your order. Just wait until DCFC is part of the standard edition. The Launch Edition is just for the early adopters, but most people will want to wait for the standard edition.
@@amosbatto3051 What worries me most about this is the lack of judgment by the folks at Aptera. They think they are doing the most popular version first, but everyone assumed this config would include DCFC. I think it would make a lot more sense to do the 250 mile version without DCFC than the 400 mile version. It's going to take almost 10 hours to fully charge the 400. Less than 5 hours to recharge the 250. If they are going to eventually solve the DCFC charging issues, then it makes sense to do the short range version first. 90% of people that wanted the 400 were expecting/depending on DCFC. It's not like they don't have time to solve this problem while they are waiting for the $50million needed to start production, and machine the tools, and get the factory set up. This all just makes me wonder if they CAN'T solve the DC charging issues.
Did anyone check back on their config? Aptera have included the enhanced audio for $0...
I've the minimalist $25,800 2WD 250 mile version selected, and only added the $900 full-solar pack for a total of $26,800. That's the price quoted for a spec that now includes the subwoofer etc. I only went back to have a look at the new interior and to check prices of upgrades, so was pleasantly surprised by this.
Thanks for pointing this out
Love how honest you are
The weird thing to me is that if you aren't going to have DCFC at launch then why bother with the 400mi battery? Make the Launch Edition 250mi and FWD. Keep it simple and focused on the commuter-only use case. This edition has a weird mix of features.
It's what a large number ordered. And the higher the price per vehicle for the 1st 5,000 the better for their finances.
I’m sure that’s true but they ordered it thinking it would DCFC…
The lack of DC fast charging is a no-go criteria for me too - unfortunately. 600 miles of range would be the minimum to match my needs without DC.
I think Aptera should consider switching to the 600 miles edition as the 2nd option they offer rather than going with 250.
The promise of DC capabilities in later editions (30-50kW would suffice I guess) could unfortunately also introduce an Osborne effect. Many people could decide to wait instead of buying the early editions. So I think it is a risky strategy.
The efficiency of only one launch version totally makes sense to me and I am very pleased that Aptera decided to go this route.
Make thousands of those.
From there, it's relatively easy to drop the battery size down to the 250 mile version and leave off the rear motor for the 2WD version.
After that, or maybe even at the same time, adding different colors and interiors will be fairly easy to do.
The 600 and 1000 mile versions will take much more engineering and testing, so it makes sense that they will be last.
However, I strongly believe that even the launch version should have fast charging capability to make it versitile for a variety of use cases.
Breaking news (1 hour before replying here) Aptera heard the complaints and are fitting DCFC to every launch Aptera, on the Aptera youtube channel...
My 2017 Bolt EV DC fast charges at about 57 miles per hour and that's considered to be super-slow by most people. I've only fast charged my car a handful of times when I first got it because my home charger wasn't installed. At home I can level 2 charge somewhere between 20-35 miles per hour depending on temperature and range left.
This thing would be a the long-range-king with DC fast charging.
I had a Mustang Mach E and at Electrify America the max charging speed I received was abysmal. Aptera will be just fine with Level 2 and I agree, DC fast-charging would make Aptera the ruler of range.
@@flexluthor1 I feel like just as big a problem is the simple fact that all the DC fast chargers that are out there, the Aptera can't use. So forgetting about charging speeds, it simply can't plug in at the majority of charging stops that are along interstates and highways...
@@jumpman83
Aren’t there adapters that can be used? I thought there would be - but I’m not experienced, as Aptera will be my first EV.
@@kevinscott8642 Yes.
Adapters for CCS/NACS, but not DC/AC
I think the more considered takeaway from all the charms and disappointments of the Launch Edition is that it is largely moot for the vast majority of reservation holders with places in the queue greatly than 5 or 6 thousand. They only plan to make 5000 of them; all of which will be out the door before our turn comes up (unless more people want the L.E.). That will be a year or more after they start production, so closer to 2 years from now. We’ve already seen how much can change in a few years.
The L.E. meets the vast majority of my previous expectations (though at a premium price point) but it just doesn’t really matter because I won’t be getting one anyway, unless I actually ask for it. Rather I think I will leave my preorder unchanged and see if they haven’t sorted out DCFC and the other economical features I have selected by the time my opportunity to buy actually comes up.
I do surely hope that they get lots of folks who still want the L.E. because of course that’s needful for their long term success, but for me and the vast majority of other reservation holders - meh.
I will be impressed if they even bring this to production. For many Aptera is new but 11 years ago, it was the same story. I am all for it, but the idea this is coming in another 2 years just seems more of a hope.
@@SilverCymbal I will be impressed also, because an automotive startup is an extraordinarily hard row to hoe. But this one is far more needful than most because of how it bucks the self destructive trend of ever larger and more resource intensive vehicles that legacy automakers have been pushing for decades. That’s what I have been waiting for and I am so ready for them to be about it!
@@joelsmith4394 I agree, I have become so skeptical. In the last 10 years, none of these products. Not just Aptera have come out. Between the kickstarters, crowdfunding, Elios, Nikola, coolest coolers and a giant list when you look around we don't have any new vehicles or products ion a big scale (the game changers) that made it. All still in development or belly up. The only exception that pulled it off was Tesla. They need to call one of the hollywood folks to get their friends to make up the balance. Hell, they backed that phony bitcoin and was thin air. At least this is a car
I hope they change their minds about the DC fast charging, that's a big deal, makes it hard to take this on long trips indeed.
I might sit on the reservation and opt to wait and see if they add this capability down the road, preferably on the higher range trims.
I totally agree. We take our Telsa on 1500 mile road trips and without the fast charger that wouldn’t be possible. Totally disappointment for sure
Thanks for the rehash and slowed video at the end, makes it easy to get all the relevant info. At first I was a little bummed out about no DCFC, but I don't think it will be necessary for my use based on how I use my Model 3 LR RWD. Especially because the Aptera has a longer range and can only carry 2 people. The main reasons I DCFC on my Tesla are due to towing a trailer (Aptera can't tow, so that won't be needed), or going to the nearest large airport to pick up a party of 2 (not possible now with only 2 seats). However, this means that the Aptera could not be my only vehicle like my Model 3 is. I would still need to keep my Model 3 in order to pull trailers and haul more people. The Aptera still makes a great commuter vehicle for me (I drive 113 miles per day), but it can't be my only vehicle. I prefer to only have 1 vehicle, so I will see when the time comes around whether I will get it or not. It would be great if the Aptera qualified for the federal tax credit, but it doesn't because it is a not a 4-wheeled vehicle. The government should have considered the impact of higher efficiency 3- and 2- wheeled vehicles and included an incentive for them.
Steve, few others have been as staunch an advocate for the Aptera mission and ethos as myself but the lack of DC fast charging has really diminished my enthusiasm. I know Chris has said it will be offered later as an upgrade but at what cost? I agree it was a big mistake not to prioritize DCFC in their launch editions. I am no longer sure this will be my next vehicle.
Well said. Keeping a calm head, and evaluating the purchase logically, for me it's a deal breaker. This decision is incredibly shortsighted. Yes it makes their job easier in the short term, but at the cost of functionality and a huge damage to perception. I urge Aptera management to reconsider and just bite the bullet and put in the work to design it properly from the start.
Just wait for the standard edition, which will include DCFC. No need to over-react because the initial production run for early adopters doesn't have it.
Yeah I'll be honest, the lack of DC fast charging is honestly making me more iffy on buying it. Yeah I shouldn't need it, but I do plan on getting a job that requires some pretty long trips and me driving half way across the country for training. I don't feel very good on the idea of only level 2 especially since I planned on getting the longest range model. I really hope they at least add it for the 600 and 1000 mile models as they will really suck charging that long.
That max range model for example would take 15 hours to charge to full assuming no charging curve which is totally unrealistic. That really puts a huge damper on the hype of the vehicle as it seemed to have everything going for it, but that one thing it doesn't happens to be one of the most extreme ones. I'm not sure who would stick with the 250 mile model knowing they can't fast charge it now. It makes it wholly inept for road trips at all as there are EVs that have the same range and get back on the road in 15-30 minutes.
This especially hurts after all the news of using the NACS port which some thought would mean access to the super chargers. Now that just seems even less likely as it doesn't fast charge at all.
Thanks for another great video Steve!
1. 2 parking sensors are on the front nose (look like nostrils), noted in their launch edition video
2. I wonder if CPC bought the steel, as part of their “investment” into Aptera. If Aptera makes it, they’ll pay for the machining. If not, CPC can use the steel to make other molds for other manufacturers. That would be in line with Aptera not spending money on tooling until they reach their investment goals.
I originally switched to the launch edition, but have since gone back to my original config. I really need the DCFC for my use case. I also opted for 2wd for the better efficiency and lower cost.
I really hope Aptera can stay competitive with all the increased competition in a similar price point. As much as I love Aptera, a similar priced EV that can carry my whole family for the same price that used a little more electricity is hard to ignore.
The fact that Tesla lowered prices is really squeezing Aptera which I didn't think was possible. This is going to be tough to pull this off. DCFC should have been a priority it looks like.
It’s a bad excuse about the dc fast charging…. The could have limited the dc fast charging to 40-50 kW and that would be fine. Or upgrade ac charging to 22 kW or 11 kW… Excellent video for me that only know a little about the Aptera. BR, Per (Denmark)
Steve, I was not able to watch, but I KNEW you would recap, so I didn't stress it. THANKS MAN!!!!!
As the owner of a '18 Chevrolet Bolt w/DCFC, I have only charged it once, before the warranty ran out and that was to make sure it worked.
We have a level 2 charger at home which more than meets our needs.
For an island that's 7x21 miles max this is pretty perfect.
I was so excited for this vehicle, but no level 3 means no purchase for me. Unfortunately, level 2 is an absolute deal breaker for me. But I wish them the best of luck.
Hopefully they will be successful in getting the government loan to start production. Like you, I want to use it for road trips, so I'm holding out for the maximum battery. I understand that the price can't stay as low as originally targeted, but I just hope that it stays within my budget.
Non-Club members such as myself please note: Aptera has reinstated DC Fast Charging, so these comments were heard and Aptera listened - making them a _very_ unusual company. Kudos, folks!
I can understand the disappointment of all those who want this, want that, and want every other thing else. But this Launch Edition is not intended to satisfy every consumer whim. This initial Aptera is directed at a niche group who share, in a narrow sense, the core philosophy of Aptera Motors company. The rest have to be patient and wait for their turn to come, and come it will in future iterations. Aptera has all the things they are presently demanding in their pipeline. So let's calm down, applaud, and celebrate while we work together for the raising of the necessary funding required to make it to production.
But the cold hard truth is Aptera will now be known as the EV without fast charging. That's a huge reputation hit and I believe it'll sink the company, sadly.
Those other options may come IF they can last that long without folding.
Yes but was DCFC a part of that niche? It's starting to look like it. If they missed the mark on that this will not be good.
DCFC was the main reason I looked at Aptera...I have a Model S and Model 3.....This was going to be used as a road trip fun vehicle.....without DCFC that is now impossible.....What scares me is I have heard all kind of promises for different products in my life, and probably 95% never happen for one reason or another.......I t was said that Sandy Monroe said go with a single vehicle at initial release......that makes sense.......meaning, it should include DCFC.....all the other extras like premium sound is not really needed......Make one car that people will want NOW....not wait later for.....
The second thing that got my attention is the fact that the company is still searching for financial money to come in BEFORE production can start......I believe they are in trouble and trying to get the car out to bring in cash which is understandable....but......putting something out there just for the sake of putting something out there with promises of update later is a scary thought.......I believe people will change their reservation to the LE edition just to keep place in line, and like Tesla's Cybertruck, will wait for final pricing.......then at the end of the day, may cancel......
My final thought is that, if you are going to put a car out, make it right, price it correctly, include what was promised at the beginning (DCFC) and it will probably save you money in the long run and keep many of the first line reservationist on board.......YES, lack of DCFC will be the backbone breaker of the company sorry.
@@Sqeptick it doesn't need it with it's insane range and solar charging. DC fast charge is an ego thing here. It won't make your wee-wee any bigger.
So is it safe to conclude that the thermal demands of DCFC cant be met by the current battery cooling design?
DCFS even modest at 50KW+ requires a decent radiator & large fan. Yes the Leaf does it without liquid cooling but battery degredation is pretty dire. 22KW AC in the UK & EU would perhaps be a usable compromise. But there are not many Level 2 Chargers that output at that level. Its pretty clear that modest DCFS is a priority. But I can't see with space limitations how they are going to shoehorn all the equipment needed into the bodyshell...
The lack of DC fast charging is a huge threat to both reservations turning into deliveries and likely more importantly big money investors. Totally agree with all the comments on many of us planning on using our Apteras as a road tripper. This also kills picking it up in Cali and driving it home cross country and will necessitate delivery logistics. I am also very curious as to why a vehicle with this level of efficiency wouldn't be able to get closer to a 100 ml/hr charge rate even on level 2 charging.
You are right. I just canceled my reservation. By the time the version I want is available, the price will most likely be too high and I doubt there will be much of a wait... if they can even make it that far.
6.6kw charging x 10 miles/kwh = 66 miles/hour charging speed. I guess they figure in some losses to yield 57 miles/hour
Love it, very exciting! Just switched to Launch Version. 57mi/hr is fine with me. I plug in at the tennis center, swim, have lunch, spend a few hours there. Rose gold very nice: colorful. Advertise, Advertise!!!
Wow, that webinar said a great deal and not all of it was positive. Most of us here have been very passionate about Aptera to the point that my wife calls it Aptera blindness. Today was the day we found out that Santa was something that Coca-Cola made up based loosely on the legend of Saint Nicholas.
The lack of DCFC is really huge. Chris M. was quoted as saying that the Launch Edition would be upgradeable to support DCFC is not much better. If we take personal passion out of the equation and look at what we are getting with the Launch Edition, the financial side is questionable. The current estimate cost of the Aptera Launch Edition (LE) is $33,200 and Chris Anthony was saying that some costs have increased 40%. Um that is an additional $13,280 or $46,480 at what hopefully would be a worst case cost. It still doesn't have DCFC which really enabled the Aptera to be a long range vehicle suitable for trips. Chris M has indicated that the Aptera LE could be upgraded for DCFC. Well anything is upgradeable if you put enough money into it but let's say the big issue is the cooling of batteries, as has been indicated. We know that a heat pump is not going to be included in the Aptera LE and a heat pump would likely make the DCFC possible. There is a little issue I see with the current design and using a heat pump during DCFC. The airflow puts hot air at the handle of charging cable. That can be a very significant amount of heat even at 42.7kW. (If the max discharge is 128kW, that would be 3C. 1C is typically the max charging rate and that would be 42.7kW.) Unless the Launch Edition will be setup to handle a heat pump and what is missing is the reversing valve, which seems to be in very limited supply, upgrading the Launch Edition to DCFC will likely cost over $5,000. That really puts the vehicle at $38,200 for something that was advertised to have DCFC. Chris Anthony has said that the Aptera could be charged 0-80% in about 15 minutes. (Even with DCFC, I would find that amazing if that was possible without blowing up the battery. I don't see how 42.7kW could charge a 42kWh battery to 80% in about 15 minutes.) If we say we will just get the Launch Edition now and sell it when the DCFC Edition comes out, the value of your Launch Edition dropped enormously. If we conservatively say there will be an 11% increase in the price that puts the Launch Edition at $36,852 before taxes / registration and shipping. Shipping will likely be $2,000. At the end of the day, the Aptera LE will likely cost close to $40,000 and there is no tax rebate and it is not practical for long trips that would be more than 350 miles.
Like so many of us, I changed my order to the Aptera LE as it will be many years, if ever before I would see the vehicle I had pre-ordered. It doesn't cost me anything and might keep my place in line as I have a relatively low number. Will I spend $40,000 on a vehicle that I can't practically take on trips? Probably not. The solar benefit for me is not likely to give me more than 22 miles per day so the solar would help but with a practical daily range of 350 miles, this is a game changer. I was hoping to drive the Aptera home from Carlsbad, CA but at a minimum it would take 8 days, assuming I could find L2 chargers to charge overnight. At a maximum of 6.6kW we can't make good use of the Tesla Destination Chargers that will charge at 9.6kW. Sure, we can can plug into a destination charge but the vehicle will limit it to 6.6kW. Of course this assumes that Tesla will allow the Aptera to use their charger.
When the Aptera LE costs more than a Chevy Bolt and can't practically be used for long trips, there will be a large number of us that have changed our order to the Aptera LE but will definitely have second thoughts when it comes time to actually purchase it. Before the webinar, I was thinking that about 1/3rd of the pre-orders would cancel. Today, would say that only 1/3rd of the pre-orders will actually purchase a vehicle. (To be fair, Aptera has not said they will increase their price by 11% but if you look at the cost of things, 11% is not unrealistic, especially when Chris Anthony mentioned 40% increase in things. It would have been better to have updated the price to 2023 prices and not continue with the 2019 prices but doing so would likely impact investment and purchases. Taking a vehicle that was promoted as cost effective at $26K and turning that into a vehicle that realistically will cost $37K before shipping and tax/registration is hard to swallow especially when it is much less of a vehicle.
You’ve presented all of my issues with lack of fast charging options for long road trips which is exactly what I was planning to use Aptera for. I also had planned for the option of picking my Aptera up in Carlsbad and driving to New Jersey. Doable with a 600 mile vehicle- not with the 400 (which is effectively a 300 mile vehicle driving with heat or A/C and keeping battery usage within the 20 - 80% level of charge.
@@arlenbell4376 I think the bombshell of the lack of DCFC in the Aptera LE will have some very significant consequences. If Aptera comes out and clarifies the issues around not including DCFC and what it will really cost to retrofit it later, that might change things but this is likely to be a costly upgrade.
I can see having only one model available for the Aptera LE but I think the number of people that will actually purchase the Aptera LE is very misleading. I can't imagine that the decision to not include the DCFC was taken lightly but I think Aptera has miscalculated the total attraction of the Aptera and that really included being able to use it for road trips. I was not planning on using DCFC daily, or even weekly but the 400 mile vehicle to me was practical for most of my needs and with the ability to DCFC would give me the range I would use my ICE vehicle. Now, the Aptera is out of the equation for road trips and I will need to use my ICE vehicle that gets 25 mpg on a good day. The Aptera LE just lost a huge reason for purchasing it. As I said before, I have kept my pre-order and I did switch to the LE but at this point, I am not likely to purchase a vehicle that limits me to 300 to 350 miles per day at the price point they are at. The webinar was incredibly disappointing from the start. This was a really big event for Aptera and the whole presentation was not at all what I would expect. As Steve said, the webinar should have been shot separately and made into a professional presentation with a live Q&A.
One thing the lack of DCFC has done is to distract us from the timeline they pointed out. Realizing Aptera has yet to come close in meeting the timelines they have set, they said 9 months from the point they have the $50M to start production and that was only the CPC part. The partially assembled vehicles need to be shipped to Carlsbad, CA for final assembly. Not only would I imagine solar and glass to be installed as they mentioned but if the batteries are being made in Carlsbad, CA, it doesn't make sense to ship the batteries to Italy and then have the vehicle shipped back to Carlsbad, CA. They said there will be another 3 months before the vehicles are shipped. That optimistically puts it at a year out. If on 27.January they announce they have the funding to go into production, that puts it at 2024 before we see an Aptera LE in our driveway. I actually don't see how their math works out as they need $50M to tool up for production but it will take a year before vehicles are actually sold. Their burn rate has been about $5M per month. That is $60M to just stay alive. Now, they don't need $60M all at once but they need at least $5M a month coming in to address operating costs. I really want to see Aptera succeed. Before the webinar, I would have said there was a 50/50 chance they would make it. I wish I could share that optimism today.
The part that is really annoying is that we just learned of the lack of DCFC but Aptera has likely known this for at least 6 months and yet they pushed for the Tesla plug and compared it with CCS which is L3 charging. Cooling the battery during L3 charging is not something new. The lack of proper cooling was seen in the early Leafs. Maybe Aptera should have focused on having L3 charging then to push for the Tesla plug that will only see the L1/L2 side of it.
A huge disappointment and miscalculation by Aptera.
I don't think you all appreciate just how rare it is to see a startup getting this far, let alone adding extra features to the basic model. I'm going to be super happy if they manage to start mass producing it, because of how very rare it is, and how very rare it is to see this type of radically different design that is normally just a concept car come to life.
@@YeeLeeHaw they have yet to produce a production vehicle. They don't even have a Delta vehicle. Is it rare to get this far? Very much a YES but they have not made it out of the woods yet. Even once they start making vehicles they will not be out of the woods. The risk of failure is very high. Once they go into production, their operating costs increase dramatically.
Aptera has spent 2+ years selling the idea of long range. The 400 mile vehicle will likely only deliver 300-350 miles with AC or heater on and take 8 hours to recharge with a medium range L2 charger. This is not what they were advertising. If this vehicle can't replace my ICE vehicle why would I purchase it? If someone does not travel more than 50 miles from where they live, this is a pretty expensive vehicle for a realistic range of less than 350 miles.
@@ddessert6 Yes it is rare to come this far with a production ready design. You're a clown that have no perception of how hard it is to manage a startup in this space, you only know how to whine.
I won't be bragging about the Aptera to my friends after this DCFC news, until I find out (I hope) that later editions will have DCFC. Or I'll change my order to 600 range and wait longer. I'm concerned that with a place in the queue in the #7000 range, enough people will drop out ahead of me after this news that my current 400 range AWD order will come up early and I'll be confronted with having to choose if I want to accept this compromise.😐
L3 charging is a must. You simply cannot make a vehicle in 2023 and not include it. The fact that it requires an entire redesign and it wasn't the shipping goal tells me the company isn't serious. Look at how heavily they marketed it as a road trip vehicle tent attachment, driving up the coastline. If you were just planning on releasing a daily driver, you spec a daily driver not a 400m almost road trip worthy vehicle outside this one catastrophic design limitation. If they told me this was an 18k 150m vehicle sign me up.
this is the very best example of ignorance in the realm of rechargeable vehicles. fur fuk’s sake, if you can’t understand the reasoning behind these simple design decisions, you should avoid all major adult actions such as buying a car, buying a house, finding a career, and choosing a spouse. if you don’t know how to evaluate needs and options then leave such behaviors to mature minds. when a vehicle has several options for commuting or camping, or long-distance travel then JUST BUY THE 1000 MILE RANGE VERSION if you are such a road trip maniac.
This is not a travel vehicle (the tent was a gimmick). This is a commuter vehicle for tech bros; and if parked in the sun, will likely never need to be plugged in at all. Fast charging and battery longevity is still a huge grey area for every ev maker.
Hi Steve, Again another fully descriptive article, thank you. If DC fast charging is a critical issue for you, get in line for the 1000 mile range. The fixed top speed is because electric motors turn at just so many RPM’s . I’ve opted for the “launch edition” even though the color and some of the features are not what I had first desired. More than anything I hope to get my unit in 2023.
@@TotallyOther that is idiotic to say jut buy a 1000 mile Aptera. It’ll take 18hrs to charge a 1000 mile Aptera. Plus a Tesla model 3 would be cheaper than a 1000 Aptera.
@@garydmercer Because they are ignorant thinking they know more than the Aptera team and Sandy Munro and is comparing a startup first launch vehicle with already established cars from old companies. They have no clue what a rare sight it is to see a startup getting this far at all and keep their core design, add to that a vastly radical design which no other manufacturer produces. Ignorant comments like this is creating unnecessary FUD for a company in their most vulnerable state that is despite what DOG thinks very serious.
I guess this kicks the whole “Aptera will be the first tesla supercharging partner” prediction in the guts.
There was no mention of seat or steering wheel heat. That's Standard on any car these days and very desirable to extend range in our Canadian climate.
This doesn't seem like the best vehicle for Canada unless maybe you are in Vancouver or Victoria.
Steve says "I kinda thought that in a modern EV DC fast charging was a given. You should have DC fast charging." Yes, exactly and as an investor, I have some serious concerns with this decision. Initial reviewers of the Aptera will evaluate the car as delivered, not on future promises, and the Aptera will launch with the reputation as slow charge vehicle. I couldn't even drive my order from Carlsbad to my home in the San Jose area without stopping for a couple of hours to slow charge at a Tesla charging station.
Precisely. As a potential customer I'm disappointed. As a $10,000 investor I'm very concerned about the myopic thinking behind this decision. Getting a compromised product out to market ASAP, only to get trashed in the media is a very risky gamble.
I put it on the same level as air conditioning and heat. You need to have it these days, the beauty of the Aptera is it doesn't need even closer to the high levels of other vehicles but to not have it at all limits your customer base by a lot! Especially in America
My workaround would be to use a battery bank that can charge with a level 2 charger. Then charge the Aptera while driving. Of course that assumes the Aptera can use the Power Bank energy while moving. So you could charge the power bank and Aptera at the same time. This means charging would be 57*2 per hour. It's definitely not a perfect solution but might fit the needs of very specific situations.
I like the way you think Scott. I did not even consider this one. It would be interesting to understand how you could both store your battery bank AND connect to the charger with the back lid down.
@@barryjsamson Yup. That's one thing I don't know about. 😔 Maybe we'll be able to find out since they would like to have a workaround.
No level 3 charging is a disappointment but NOT a Deal Breaker for me, BUT an increased PRICE is more likely the Deal Breaker now that the Model 3 price has dropped and my wife sees, light weight 3-wheel car = Death Trap. I did switch to Launch Addition but my Res. # is so large I don't think that will matter. I also think that retro fitting a launch configuration vehicle to DCFC will be expensively impractical, so I would not plan on that. I am looking for a relatively inexpensive EV mostly as an around-town car, so (unfortunately) price is the main issue. Aptera is (was?) an interesting and affordable option SO I hope the company can keep it that way. Since I don't expect to be offered the chance to buy for more 1-3 years fom now, it's still a wait and see how things pan out in the future. As I am not young and have 3 ICE cars I could probably get by without ever buying another car, ever.
When I first heard about the Aptera with a starting price of $26k and up to 40 free miles of driving every day, I was all in. But now with the Launch edition priced solidly in the $30's, the Chevy Bolt is starting to look more attractive.
And the Bolt can fast charge. Barely, but still...
And you might get a rebate if you are in the US.
Keep in mind $26K is base specs. The launch edition are higher locked in specs. You could get those base specs but it won’t be delivered until after Launch Edition.
It looks like the power output specifications have been reduced. Didn't it used to be 100kW for 2WD or 150kW for AWD? Their page now says 85/128. That would explain the reduced acceleration and top speed numbers.
The 150 was never going to happen for the 42kw version as those batteries can only output 3c which puts it about 128. Maybe he 600 will be able to get a full 150.
yep, no fastcharging is a dealbreaker. you dont need it often, but when you need it, you NEED it.
The lack of DC fast charging may be a deal-breaker for me. I had planned to drive cross-country as soon as I received the vehicle to show off the vehicle to family on the East Coast. That would be difficult without L3 charging. I think it's a mistake that Aptera decided to omit this on the Launch Edition, and I predict they will lose many reservation holders for that reason. As Steve said in his video, the price without DCFC is a bit high for a L2-only vehicle. Even my 2016 eGolf can charge up to 50kW without battery cooling. For the Aptera, all you need is about 30kW and that would be enough for road tripping. Disappointing!!!
Agreed, it doesn't even need to be that fast. I was okay with the idea of the 50Kwh as even with the 1000 mile model, you could get a pretty solid straight shot and take a quick nap when you stop. With this it's not even done after a whole night's sleep. That's horrible considering even the fully air cooled Nissan Leaf was able to use L3 charging.
Hopefully it's just something that will be ready for the "non-launch-edition" vehicles
@@suunraze I agree; and the 'how-why' was muddled at the Clown Show called the Webinar. I am holding out for DC fast charging 'later' or I cancel
@@Skylancer727 Even if this motorcycle had 50 Kwh DCFC, you will soon have many jeers and angry fists waving at you at the Tesla DCFCers. It will be the Apteras clogging up the chargers and holding up progress.
Thanks Steve. I changed my reservation to the Launch Edition. I was wanting Sole White with red/black int but can work with Luna/Codex. I already had the enhanced sound and all wheel drive. I did have the off road package for the extra lift but I will do without that. The lack of DC charging is a bit or a bummer but not a deal breaker for me. I tour on an ebike so I include the charging issue (location & time) in my plans so I'm use to that. Also, currently I have an Arcimoto and already plan my outings with L2 charging options. The one thing everyone has to keep in mind is not all L2 public charging is the same and not all are at 6.6kwh. Example: Most ChargePoint stations are dual head units. This means the 6.6kw is shared to both. This means 3.3kw for each even when you are the only one there. The best options for 6.6kw is to charge at a single unit or a destination charger as you have a better chance of charging at 6.6kw. As to the length of charging time, well I'm retired so in most cases time is not an issue for me. I would just build in the needed charging location and time for any trips I take. Currently, while charging, I do my exercising by walking around the area, take a hike etc so I would continue this. Great way to get my miles in and my Dr loves it. Now with this said, It would be really nice if we could at least do a low level DC charge like at 50kw or even 25kw. For FC, I rented a VW ID4 from SF to SD. They can charge at 125-135kw but I never saw that. The best I saw we 60kwh at a 150k station. Most of the time I was at 40-50kwh and I got great charging mph. A DC 25kw charging speed is almost 4x that of L2. Perhaps the Aptera gang can come up with a way for low DC 25kwh charging?
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but the center console metal is a different color depending on the interior color you select. This can be seen in the Configurator if you pick an interior view and then click on each of the three interior color options.
I have an ebike for local trips. I hoped to use the Aptera for long trips, particularly into Canada or the high desert of eastern Oregon. 400 miles is the longest I'd ever want to drive in one day (Oregon is about 400 miles wide), but finding a motel of any kind in eastern Oregon and especially one with a destination charger that isn't already in use overnight by another EV will be an ongoing gamble. I switched my order from 400 mile range to 600. With that much range I'll have more wiggle room to find a suitable overnight charger and maybe an extra day to gain charge from solar. So no Launch Edition for me. I'm disappointed.
No DC fast charging is definitely a deal-breaker for me. Glad I didn't have my heart set on getting one in the first batch. Definitely need mine to be a road-tripper. Since I decided to wait for the 600 mile version anyway, I hope they will have it by then.
Breaking news (1 hour before replying here) Aptera heard the complaints and are fitting DCFC to every launch Aptera, on the Aptera youtube channel...
@@peterchandler8505 Woohoo!!!! Glad they listened. The original announcement was a joy killer.
I already had the same specs as the launch edition in my order. The only thing that changed was more is three wheel powered instead of two so the makes it a win for me. The reason for ordering the two wheel was they said they would only start with two wheel drive first.
We switched our pre-order to the Launch Edition and I noticed an odd thing or two: On page one of the configurator, I selected the Launch Edition and a pop-up window instructed me to go to the bottom of the page and to hit the Save and Continue button to lock in this choice. I did that and was taken to the Optional Packages as usual... the Enhanced Audio package now listed as included. The odd part is that the other packages were still shown as available, complete with their prices. If I selected or deselected them, the total vehicle price also updated. However, if you return to your dashboard and then to review your order, the vehicle price is now back at the Launch Edition price of $32500. I suspect that additional Option Packages are not available and should not show as such. I was really hoping for the Driver Assist package, so this bummed me out. Great and detailed video Steve, Thank You very much!!
Well the charging still works out great for me plus the solar, the battery will last longer and after I pay the loan perhaps a fast charge upgrade by then a salt lithium mix cheaper battery will be available.
There are two sides to this thread. 1.) Everybody wants an Aptera yesterday. 2.) Several people are asking for all the bells and whistles. Both can't be done. Which one do you think will ensure Aptera's success?
That's what Aptera thinks.
I am sure the launch edition will fit the needs of many people. Unfortunately, this will not fit my needs for frequent long-distance trips, so I will wait for the fast-charging capability. The thought of waiting for 4 hrs of charging for a 600-mile trip is just horrendous.
I was going to have the Aptera as my only vehicle (save my motorcycle) and rent a car for when I needed extra passenger space. The more I hear about the limitations I am now reluctant to take delivery. Twice a month I take long road trips to SD and I would be stuck at the chargers. With the Aptera not qualifying for the tax credit I would be better off with a Bolt or wait for the Canoo to come out. I was very disappointed with the reveal! It would be fine for those who have a second car but as your only vehicle this falls short. To make it to production they are bringing out a compromised product.
Why doesn't it qualify for the tax credit?
Personally, I don't need DC fast charging, between solar and home L2 charging. But Aptera really needs to add that as a priority, and the lack of DC fast charging makes it less competitive, and undermines the ability to go longer distances, off roading, road trips, etc.. Plus Tesla may decide to not allow Supercharger support (outside of Level 2 Destination chargers) because an Aptera charging at Level 2 would charge slowly, and they would probably set a time limit on use. Otherwise, this Launch Edition is pretty much like my previous Aptera ordered specs. Like many others, I am most eager to see Aptera get the needed financing to go into production ASAP.
Tesla Superchargers do not support AC Level 2 output. The SC network is not compatible with the LE without DCFC.
@@BrandonWood44 Remarkably, it is no longer a problem anymore.
Still a big fan of Aptera and excited for their progress but I’m supper disappointed with not having DC fast charging and some sort of V2L either from the Tesla charging port in the back or a simple 110 plug in the cargo area. Maybe over the next month or so while they are in the process of acquiring more funding they can get that done. I currently live without DC fast charging with my Fiat 500e and for about 75% of my driving I can plan for it but there are times I wish I could do it, particularly in winter when range goes down and when I need to go a little further. No DC fast charging limits Aptera to a commuter vehicle and not a long distance traveler which is what I was hoping to do with this vehicle. Bummer.
As far as my views with the DC fast-charging, to preface, I had a Chevrolet spark EV. One of the best cars have driven. Incredibly efficient (6.5 mi/kWh), nicely appointed for the price, drove extremely well, and it was just a funny little car. It had a range of 100 mi if you were being careful though. I still took it camping and everything, and it was able to charge from hookups, and even though it had DC fast-charging, I found myself rarely using it. I don't see why aptera should put DC fast charging in, even with the marketing towards adventure and road tripping. All of the range estimates that has been quoted aren't taking solar into account, and as long as you aren't being a maniac on the road, the solar should take off an effective 7 mph of load. Granted, that doesn't do much as far as overall range goes, but if I'm able to go out to a campground, the places I go don't usually have any charging infrastructure anyways, and I show up in my Aptera, the most appealing thing to me is that it will charge itself. DC fast chargers support a very ICE like mentality which is needed for every other electric vehicle because they don't have the ability to make their own energy, but with the Aptera, it'd be equivalent to setting up an oil refinery whenever you stop. If your gasoline car could do that, would you ever worried about gas stations? I think people's mentalities are going to change when they realize that their Aptera is a standalone unit, not an extension of whatever fuel supply it takes
For a lot of usecases it suffices, for others it does not. Travelling to my parents house e.g. needs me a practicable solution for 900km. It is ok with a Tesla M3 to charge about 1-1.5 hours altogether in 2-3 stops on the road, but it would be very unpleasant to stop after 600km and wait 4 hours while charging to make it to the destination. If you cut your journey into two days you cannot be sure to become a charging spot near your stop either to charge during the night. Spending loooong ours at a charging station during the day is really not an option. As long as it is like that Aptera's range is practically limited to the 400 miles defined. All roadtrips to more distant destinations are not practical. With that, you cannot have Aptera as your one and only vehicle and for being the second one it is kind of expensive.
Having said that I understand the rational behind their decision and hope the lauch edition will find sufficient happy customers whose needs can be matched by it perfectly.
Solar charging is a good alternative to home charging and L2 charging in your living area. It is not a practical solution for longer road trips. With that, Aptera in this form will unfortunately not be suited as a one and only vehicle for most of the people. You do not make long road trips all too often. But if you do, it should be practical and managable.
I feel it would be better to have the 600 mile battery and no fast charging. It would give you a buffer when traveling on a trip and not require you to stop and waste an hour or two charging. I am glad this edition will work for several people but I am going to wait for level 2 driving, 600 mile battery, and fast charging.
Love the insight, thanks for breaking down the specifications. I'm sure that Aptera will expedite dc fast-charging come release if level 2 is not sufficient.
Breaking news (1 hour before replying here) Aptera heard the complaints and are fitting DCFC to every launch Aptera, on the Aptera youtube channel...
I have traveled a good deal with my Bolt and can't imagine traveling without at least 50kw DCFC. I was really looking forward to owning an Aptera but without the DCFC it would make traveling out of town a big problem. The hope was using the Tesla plug was perhaps a way to use their superchargers, but without DCFC capability we could only gain access to the destination chargers along the way. I'm only guessing but I'm expecting to lose at least half of those 40K preorders and perhaps even half or more of the small investors. I'll keep my preorder in the hopes they change the plan as is but won't buy unless they come equipped with DCFC.
Just wait for the standard edition, which will include DCFC. The Launch Edition is just for the early adopters.
As long as the charging can be upgraded, not having fast DC charging wouldn't be a deal breaker, but you make a good point about the extra cooling that would be needed. Three motors is great, and 400 miles of range acceptable, but not quite enough given the slower charge capacity. Right now I'm still waiting for the 600 mile version.
so in NE there are a ton of trailer camping sites that have electric hook ups. I think these exist all over the place. you can still do those long road trips, you just have to think about the resources differently.
I think that the lack of DCFC will push users to potentially go with the larger battery models, like the 600-mile range. It's not a fix, but it'll reduce the impact of the lack of that feature. It wouldn't impact me too much if I go with Aptera as I intend to use it primarily as a commute vehicle.
Breaking news (1 hour before replying here) Aptera heard the complaints and are fitting DCFC to every launch Aptera, on the Aptera youtube channel...
I wonder if Tesla will be mad if the Aptera makes it to production with such a slow charge rate because it's the only vehicle we know of that's going to have the NACS charge port. It might make some people think that you can't charge quickly with that port.
I think it is not a problem. Tesla capabilities are clear and NACS is now an independant standard. Would an Aptera be able to AC charge at a Tesla Supercharger at all, if they were open to other brands? If the standard also supports that (which seems to be the case) then the real problem would be, that Apteras would block the stalls for an unproportionatly long time. Tesla might even ban them or have an AC charging / almost-idle fee per minute. :-)
I don't think you can say that most people wouldn't use DCFCing. Many people don't fast charge their current vehicle because they don't have the range to make it usable with the current fast charger network.
i changed, though i wanted mine white. i did add on the safety upgrade and it seemed to allow it without a warning so i suppose im all good on that. i can always have it wrapped in white when it arrives. im happy without dcfc because mine will be a daily driver in hawaii so there'll be lots of sunlight.
640 km range would be great, even if it's half that in the winter it would be good enough for me for pretty much everything except holiday trips. It will need fast charging to sell well, but I guess it will have that long before there is a narrower Europe-friendly edition, anyway. The doors seem to be hinged differently than before, opening even a little wider than the wheel pods. That could be a problem when parking and on ferries. Depends on how hard it will be to squeeze in and out through half open doors.
I'm going to pull the plug on my reservation as well. I have a feeling when the version I want is available, there won't be a wait list.
I hadn't picked up on the accessory hooks up top in the cargo area. Combined with the front most tie-down floor points, these would be ideal for fitting a dividing net without fouling the seat belts. A 6-point bungee-style elasticated floor net would partner this perfectly.
I am now seriously starting to think about a Tesla over the Aptera. I am going with the 600 mile range and it would take me 10.5 HOURS to completely recharge. Even taking it only down to 100 miles before charging it, it would take my 8.5 hours to recharge it. Unless I find a hotel room with a charger then I am not taking this on a long road trip. My wife and I have been planning an almost 4,000 mile round trip vacation up to Niagara Falls, over to Maine to see the leaves falling, and then back home. Now I am not sure taking the Aptera would even be a good idea ? I agree with Steve that it would be fine for daily work drives and such but not for traveling.
If you are interested in the 600mi version, it does not affect you at all that the launch edition has no DC-FC (as it also has 400mi battery, so it is not for you). Later production will come with DC-FC.
@@ThomasWaldmann that is a vague statement though. Later production will come with DC fast charging....later production as in 2024 ? 2025 ? 2026, or 2030 ? Yes I realize this is only for the launch edition.
@@Sondan1988 Software developers use to say "it gets released when it is ready".
I'm loving the bigger ground clearance because I drive on street waterways everywhere
Also it seems that the front and rear lower edges of the wheel pants have been angled up (compare to the Gamma version. That is a big deal for me in the potholed, speed bump and steep driveway curb city like mine.
We live in Colorado. Our plan for when we receive our Aptera is to go stay with my sister in San Diego. Our trip to drive it back to Colorado goes north to Canada; across to Ottawa to see our daughter; and then down to our home in Green Mountain.
DC Fast charging would help on a trip like we're planning, but if we can fully charge over-night and have a 400 mile range, we will probably just plan on driving a maximum of 8 hours a day. There's a lot to see on that route.
Hope it works out.
One thing I want to correct is DC fast charging is hard on the battery. Well, it can be if not done well, but aptera was only ever going to charge at 1c max, which is not hard on the battery. Tesla and other EVs charge at 2 or 3c, which is hard on the battery and needs really good cooling.
this looks amazing!
Perhaps DC fast charging could be allowed when the ambient temperature is low. Or charge as fast as the cooling system will allow. Even a 50% improvement would be well received.
My thoughts exactly - the on-board charging systems would monitor battery temps and adjust speed accordingly - the car is in control talking to the charger, not the other way round.
Awesome idea
True. Current BEVs throttle DCFC as the battery fills and heats. I expect Aptera will implement that as well. Soon, I hope.
@@examinerian that's only partly true. The car requests the power, but the on board charging system only controls AC power, the charging station controls the output on DC fast charging just communicating with the battery management system for temperature control and its suggested charging curve.
@@Skylancer727Thanks - I oversimplified it a bit, then! The car's temperature sensor and curves would be crucial. It's definitely doable, though, since ambient air cooling is how the Nissan LEAF (and related vehicles like the eNV200 van) do it, also at around the 50kW charge rate point.
I think this makes the 600mi option even more compelling due to lack of fast charging. Given the solar boost and extended range, 640mi of a theoretical maximum should still make road trips more than doable with overnight charging.
If you rest two hours after 4 hours of driving you can do a road trip with this vehicle. 400--> 140 after 4 hours, 140--> 260 after two hours 260 --> low after 4 hours (total of 10 hours). You will have traveled 520 miles in 10 hours and better stop somewhere for the night or 7 hours for a full charge. Coast to coast will be 5 days max!
Wouldn't take that long. The battery size is half the size for the same range as a tesla. 25kwh battery vs a 60kwh in a tesla for the same range. You get over twice the miles per hour charging this car than a tesla. Also the 1k miles range version would only require 3 stops with a average of maybe 1.5 hours of charging. For a 38 hour drive less than 5 hours of charging isn't bad. Nobody drive 1k miles nonstop anyway typically. Most people stop way more often eat and take.a break. So small 30 minute charges during food stops would likely keep you going no problem.
Any cold weather will not make this possible. At 1/2 hour stops adding 28 miles of range won’t either.
Price with DC fast charging and a heat pump would be OK for a Launch Edition (collectable, new, etc). With out them it's a stretch. Still don't know what wrap "film" material is. Don't even know if the hood has a strut or prop rod (you need to add washer fluid, jump 12V battery etc.). I still really like it...
DC fast charging for road trips is very important to me. Yes I only do a couple long trips per year now but I was looking forward to doing more and with the cost of power per mile it's around 3 times less costly than my Honda Accord Hybrid 17.2 gal tank which can go over 650 miles at 70 mph(I get about 40mpg) on a tank of gas, average 45.7. So I'm still not sure how far the Aptera will go at a pretty consistant 70 and with a fast charge on a 400 mile battery I was hoping to recharge and get up to 700 miles of travel per day and my cost of power per mile would save me $40 to $50 bucks I could put toward Hotel stays. Might as well save the cost of the Aptera and buy fuel for the Honda.
Batteries just haven't caught up yet, but in the next 10 years it's going to surpass greatly
Doubtful. Batteries are nearing the peaks of what's possible and it's the reason many brands are pivoting to less energy dense but safer or cheaper batteries like iron phosphate or sodium sulfur. Besides, solid state already exists from Ampacity. They made a Tesla Model S get an extra 80 miles of range, downside is that battery cost over $35K and the company isn't building for consumers.
But batteries will not get much better by the nature of batteries needing many atoms to hold a single ion while a gas for example is all energy directly with no wasted space. The best solution we have is the holy grail of raw sulfur batteries with an energy density just slightly over twice that of lithium, but nobody can get them to last.
Agreed. If a solid-state battery gives you a x2.5 range increase, then a 400 turns into a 1000 mile range. At that point no one cares how long it takes to charge. So YES, in 10 years the Aptera becomes the perfect vehicle.
I agree with the sentiment that DCFC is not always necessary, in fact, I rarely visit the supercharger in my model 3 as I charge at home 95% of the time, but when I do need to go out of town, it’s there. I imagine Aptera would be a second vehicle for a lot of people starting out or a travel car for work or something, but I had also planned on road tripping mine as well, even on a long commute this would be a perfect vehicle but you would want the security of stopping at a fast charger if needed. I delayed my reservation from the launch edition because I want them to get all the bugs and kinks worked out anyway (as any company has with starting production) and I’m hopeful they’ll have DCFC added by the time I’m ready to get one.
Also it’s worth noting that even though they incorporated the NACS plug, it still did not come with rights to Tesla superchargers and the whole back end software process that goes with that. They will have to come to an agreement with Tesla to use the network or everyone will have to get a CCS to Tesla adapter to use CCS chargers.
G
You have to think the aptera uses less than half the battery size of a tesla for the same ranges. So you're only charging a 25kwh battery for 250 miles range. So, even if it has slower charging, you're charging twice as fast for the same range as a tesla. 25kwh is much faster to charge than a 60kwh battery with equal or better range. With the 100kwh version once fully charged, depending on your commutes, you will almost never have to charge the thing with the solar power anyway. Or only 2 to 3 charging stops to go across the entire country. How many people drive 1k miles without stopping anyway ? Lol, even just stopping for some food and charge while you eat the charging times will not seem bad at all.
The launch edition will be limited to 6.6 kW AC charging. it will only gain 57 miles of range in an hour of charging.
Luckily it will be upgradable when they figure out how to make fast charging work.
The long and short of it is, most everyone modified their previous order to the Launch Edition. Of which it is priced about $3k higher than my prior configuration. Apetera said they were looking for another $50M in funding, but if the deposits were increased to $1k, they would have the funding once they hit 50k orders. They nearly have that number of orders now. Lastly I see the third motor as being wasteful: it more complicated, reduces range, and it’s more costly. Sad to see that it’s a requirement for the LE.
Considering the reservation deposit is refundable that would not help them at all, they are not allowed/able to spend that money. What would help is if more reservation holders invested.
About the AWD/FWD I am a bit torn:
- AWD might be better in bad road conditions and maybe more fun to drive.
- AWD is a bit less efficient and more costly.
- Having the 3rd motor might be nice just in case one of the front motors becomes defect somehow. Guess one could just swap the rear one to the front in such a case without having to wait for a replacement motor?
How do you know most people modified their orders?
@@Sqeptick because if they didn’t, they’re on indefinite hold
@@ytJnC I bet most reservation holders are willing to sit on hold indefinitely to avoid getting a car without fast charging capabilities
Here's some rough calculations on maximum miles per day. We don't want to take the battery to zip, so assume 80% used and 20% unused, that's 320 miles. Assume that the 40 miles per day solar charging is only 30 miles. Together that comes to 350 miles. Assume a maximum of 12 hours for a day's drive, the 350 miles should take about 6 hours. Allow 3 hours for stopping, resting, eating, and charging, that comes to 9 hours so far. While Level 2 charging allows for 57 miles per hour, assume only 50 miles. That adds another 150 miles to the trip, making for a total of 500 miles. (I'll assume the last 150 miles takes 3 hours.).
So at best, with some safety in reserve, about 500 miles in a day is the expected distance. Now we'll assume that close to the Hotel or Motel there's a Level 2 charging station, it should take about 7 hours overnight to fully recharge. Then you could go another day of driving.
The 600 and 1,000 mile versions are better setup for long road trips, but it's not impossible with a 400 version.
Just add a small fin and tube radiator for DCFC. Aerodynamics don't matter at the charger when the vehicle is stopped.
Brilliant
Lack of fast charging capability is a big disappointment as I intended to have the Aptera as my one car. That said I had already configured my original order about as close to the Launch Edition as was possible so on the whole I was pleased. Moreover, much of my use was beyond local use was to hop camp sites which have both 110 and 220 available as part of the cost of the camp site so the car could reasonably recharge as I camp and then move on to the next site. As a senior citizen many campsites cost as little as 10$ a night, including use of electricity,.So ,while I’m deeply disappointed about fast charging I can still plan a reasonably long camping trip navigating the limitation. Your mileage may vary….
Did you notice at 21:03 the ~700 watts of solar CELLS? I'm happy Aptera is finally acknowledging, albeit deceptively, that even under the best of conditions, there won't be 700 watts of delivered power from "full solar".
I wonder, if I was doing a roadtrip car camping journey and have a Bluetti powerbank and some portable solar panels, would there ever be a way to charge the Aptera a bit more using that AC inverter so I could get even more battery charge than from just the Aptera's solar panels? I wonder if there is an adapter for that. Hmmm.
There is a comment Steve made that seems to be a common perception that I don’t see backed up. There are several upgrades from the base 400 mile range version that in the old menus added several thousand dollars to the list price. Stuff that makes the vehicle more sporty (third motor) and more luxurious (enhanced audio) but have little or no effect on its functionality. Now folks like Steve are saying that they too didn’t really want the extra fluff, but now that it’s included that’s okay. As if that inclusion won’t jack the price up just as much as we were lead to expect before.
Without a new price listed, we are left to best guess from obsolete information, how the new pricing will compare but just using the term “included” to brush off the price concerns is reckless.
The best advice I've heard on these boards was, "Think of Aptera as a hobby."
Don't get your hopes up.
Power dropped from 150 kW to 125kW also. Speed dropped from 110 to 101MPH.
Honestly if I want it for a lot of long road trips, I would get the 600 mile version minimum.
500 miles at 70 mph is 7 hours of driving. Add to that whatever range you would get from the solar, means that with the 600 or 1000 mile range Aptera, you'll be able to drive all day and charge all night.
As a business owner myself.... I get it. Offering more to your customers costs money. Money that Aptera desperately needs to survive, especially in this economy. I'd like to remind everyone to look at Archimoto and Sion... If Aptera does not make hard decisions now, their product will be nothing but cool renders and a bankruptcy filing. The launch edition is extremely important for them to get out the door, else they drown with the aforementioned companies. And as for the reason of battery complexity and the cooling system, to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong) they didn't say what aspect of the cooling system, or what aspect of the complexity made them decide against it. So offering it as an upgrade option later may make sense depending on what they where talking about.
There are however 2 sides to this.
Aptera's Side: Yes, Chris is right when he says most people don't need DC fast charging. The few people that Aptera needs to buy the launch edition are plugging in at home, or alternatively just looking for a commuter to do 40 miles or less a day. I also (currently as of writing this) have a feeling that as they get either an investment, loan, or revenue stream, will add DC fast charging back onto the car by default as resources become available. Looking at Chris's face in the presentation, he was also uncharacteristically nervous. So I assume he is fully aware that some of what he had to say was not going to be liked. With his past dedication to good engineering, I would say it's likely he did not want to make these changes. But who knows.
The Consumers Side: This video makes an excellent point. The 33k price, lack of DC Fast Charging, and no Tax incentive makes the Chevy Bolt very compelling for what I assume are many of potential Aptera customers. So it's irrelevant as to whether or not someone needs DC fast charging, because the value it has to a consumer is in "feeling safe". So the biggest value in my opinion would be things that only Aptera can offer. Such as the solar panels. So they HAVE to get the panels right. No questions asked. Would also help if they figured out the attachment of additional panels on the launch edition for camping.
Honestly I feel for Aptera. They are being squeezed for money by the circumstances around them so close to the finish line of production. One can only hope things work out for them.
One would think if they wanted to sell more cars initially they would limit some of the extras like up graded stereo and third wheel drive and add the DCFC. To me that would have made a lot more sense. It appears they just wanted to make more profits on first cars but shot themselves in the foot by not going with the DCFC
@@chuckswackhammer4499 I don't think the intention was making more money. Otherwise yes this whole move doesn't make sense. The move seems to reduce manufacturing complexity for the first vehicles off the line, so that they can get vehicles off the line. Cause the goal right now is all hands on deck to get the train rolling. Battery cooling systems and cableing is very complex. However as an A/V professional.... I can say adding a couple extra speakers is a very trivial task for cars that are already prepped to house those speakers anyway. Especially during assembly, it's a nice consolation prize and may have been requested by more road trippy reservation holders. I don't know about the Tri-motor. My only guess on that is that maybe they saw a lot of reservation holders wanted it. So they included it in the launch edition. Or possibly, you need tri motor to get regen from all 3 tires, and thus it was a way to compensate for lack of DC Fast charging. Really just speculation though.
My only point is that there are still a number of valid reasons for their decisions. Time will tell.
One minor niggle: no 12 v. cigarette lighter style power outlet for powering 12 v. accessories like travel freezers. It would have been less of an issue if they still had the 120v output plug, but that seems to be gone too.
More major: It looks like the wiper clears only about 3/5ths of the windscreen. That's not enough if you get hit by a blanket of slush from a passing semi, especially if you have to fumble through menus to start the wipers.
Wiper control is on the stalk, left of the yoke.
Without DC fast charging my main use case for this vehicle isn’t possible. I am quite surprised by this, especially after that big push to get the Tesla charge port and access to the Tesla charging network. I’m feeling misled on it. I’ll likely cancel my order and I definitely regret investing.
Interesting about the DC fast charging....same thing with ZeroMotorcycles
I ordered the 600 range as that's about the range of what I wanna drive in a day (to make this a long range vehicle).
I’d argue that the bolt isn’t cheaper than the aptera. I’ve wanted a chevy bolt for months and no one in 300 miles is willing to sell me one for less than 31k. There is just too much demand and dealerships are gouging it for all it’s worth.
Or rather, too little supply. GM's still not serious enough about the production volumes. I don't think their EVs even break 5 percent of their total vehicle output.
I'm tempted to get a Tesla after the massive price drops, but I'll still hold on to my Aptera reservation, wait and see if their future higher range trims get DC fast charging later.
Order one at the listed price!