Why are Heroes often bad in AoS? (Secret hero tiers) - Warhammer Weekly 02282024
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- Опубликовано: 19 май 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things warhammering! This week, we are breaking down heroes - we are talking about the actual secret tiers of heroes we all use and why some heroes are just wrong.
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My (un)favorite example of the sort of mismatch you described is Daemon Princes. You're telling me that these ascended demigods of chaos that lore-wise punch at near the weight of Be'lakor are 150pt bog standard tier 2 heroes (with a crap model)? An immortal champion of Khorne, favored enough to be granted the greatest boon, is going to struggle to trade with an average battleline unit of conscripts or zombies? Just... no.
The Daemon Prince model being amazing amplifies significantly the issue :(
@@ThePingouin2terand like $80....
@@ThePingouin2ter it makes it SO much worse that The Flagship model from that launch box was SO trash that they have cut its points nearly in half AND increased its attacks and it's STILL bad. The warscroll abilities competing with regular commands and being worse in almost every situation, there's no saving the unit with points drops at this point unless it suddenly becomes a weird chaff unit priced at like 100 points that has fly lol.
Find you someone who loves you as much as Tom loves hitting his mic.
i like him but damn, i have to say that this was annoying
The current state of 40k is controversial, but I think they managed to solve many of these same issues with foot heroes by turning them into unit leaders. 1) Their utility value is spread more evenly across datasheets because each one generally only has one ability, but they all have abilities and the hit rate of relevant abilities is arguably higher than AoS. 2) Their utility is capped to the unit they lead, so the gap between assassin and buff piece mostly disappears. 3) They were unafraid to break the glass floor on point costs. If a character feels like he should cost 25 points, he costs 25 points. I think the math on melee assassins completely changes when you subtract the minimum "hero tax" that seems to be applied to every hero in AoS.
I think it's worth pointing out that there are problems with that system too. By making the heroes locked to very specific units (and in most armies this is indeed the case), you are basically forced to take them both, which can sting a lot when it's a unit you don't want/have. It can be the annoyance of the "keyword bingo" problem taking to the extreme. Similarly, taking multiples of the same hero becomes much more difficult - or even multiple heroes at all, as they can often compete for the same slots (common for armies that have little basic infantry). So overall a lot of heroes still end up being shelved, just for different reasons. For some armies it's less, for some it's actually more. There's also still a lot of "mismatched Tiers" as Vince presented them, particularly in the named characters (but that's a more ancient and complex issue in 40k).
That being said, I do think AoS would handle this system much better, due to the nature of the models and structure of armies both. I am intrigued how it'd work, and give it a shot, so I agree with the overall message. The systems learning from each other is a good thing too (just please don't completely gut all the flavour out of magic/psychic as hard as you did with 40k). I haven't looked too much into Old World, but their character system seems pretty fun at a glance too.
You both bring up a lot of interesting points. Good food for thought
I think my only issue with 40k 10e is that a Lot of units got forced into 10 man squads. I desperately miss my 20 man battle sister squad
I think iterating on 40k's new system in 10th may help out with the "bad foot hero" and the "foot melee assassin" problem
Another major mismatch are the Slaanesh Twins. They were created from the essence of a Chaos god, but sheesh....
I recently reread their warscrolls and was flabbergasted all over again. I simply can't understand what they were thinking.
Vince's cultural nuggets never fail to make me laugh. My favourite being "If you French fry when you need to pizza, you are going to have a bad time". Always makes me smile.
In memorian nearly all Nighthaunt heroes
SCE has SOOOOO MANY of those tier 1 guys who fall into the “just bad” category. So many. But NH have a tough time of it as well.
I definitely feel this for Lizardmen, we have alot of characters who are essentially hero versions of units, they give buffs to them, but their cost is high and the buffs limoted to who they can go to.
However we also hwve several wizard units, their buffs can go on anyone, so by giving up the flavour of specific characters you get so much more versatility from the wizards, going back to the age old problem of balancing magic.
The whole “who ever is biggest is in charge” thing is my absolute biggest pet peeve with warhammer. It’s so dumb it makes my skin crawl. 1:01:21
It’s an odd part of it, but I think it might have to do with base sizes determining things like how some models can move and how many enemies can encircle and hit an enemy. A single small base simple cannot have as many people attack it as much, so it makes some sense having your big threats be physically big in order to give the opponent the opportunity to surround or attack them from different angles is probably not a bad idea.
My biggest disappointment was when I wanted a cities hero that could be my Felix together with Gotrek. I thought the marschal on foot could be nice but then I read his one big rule; he as a heroic action pick three units and then make them count as two on objectives. And then I realised it was only once per game, and only for that round, and it wasn’t even automatic, I had to roll under the bravery of the unit, in an army of bravery 5 and 6.
So the search for a good Felix stand in continues 😅
Imo most hero warscrolls need a complete rewrite to at least somewhat match what they are suppolsed to be. (tbh most Stormcast units don't feel powerful the way they should)
6:36 It's actually been roughly 30.000 years, give or take. I think it was the Malign Portents campaign book that revealed that Nagash took 20.000 years to build his Black Pyramid leading up to the Necroquake, and he did NOT start that project immediately after the End Times, so another 10k years there seems a reasonable assumption (as "reasonable" as that timescale is).
The doomseeker should have his own tier at the bottom which is 'barely a hero, not even a leader', but can still do 100 damage in a combat phase
GW have moved into size hero hammer. You can see 40K slowly moving more into that space over the last few years with the Primarchs and Silent King and Norn Emessary etc. Every army needs it big centrepiece leader. Its a shame because I really like the idea of small super punchy models like Gotrek.
I've long been of the opinion that the way balancing is done is the wrong way around. Instead of fiddling with point costs, many units should come with a set amount of points that is almost invariable, and should be made to reach that point cost. A good example of correct balancing is the latest Daemon Prince update in the battlescroll, even though it may not be a large enough change.
And this goes for all units. It is more important that a unit is appropriately costed for how badass it is/for lore accuracy, and then balanced to fit that. It is far more important. I really like that the Keeper of Secrets, for example, has gone up in points from 2e to 3e, even though it's not worth the current amount.
I agree, Lady O is some kind of ethereal death force, she should be powerful
If she can go toe to toe with Prime in the lore she should be a match for anything currently in the 400-500 point range. Speaking of guys who are too cheap btw.
This is where having multiple game systems is nice. The Tier2 melee assassins might still not work in AOS but they are some of the premier game-defining hammers in Warcry, while the tier 1&2 utility heroes are often bad, with just a few Runelord shaped exceptions.
Yeah it all really boils down to what we expect the mini to perform. As you said in warhammer fantasy battle you had foot heroes that were killing machines. I think it's also because of the removal of weapon skill and power/toughness. When there's no comparison and a unit hit on a flat 3+,it's hard to have a survivable character, they need additionnal rules.
I'm sad I missed the stream tonight! Especially with all the 30 Rock references (including the Craft Cruise?!?!). Parenting sometimes gets in the way of nerdy hobby...
The saurus lord on carnosaur dwarfs most monsters in the game yet have been put in the tier 2 table in every single edition.
I'll likely edit this as I watch, so apologies lol
I do really dislike seeing ANOTHER skryre model. Hopefully this is part of a wider release, as you said. I personally really want those warpfist fiend mounts from TWW3, and hopefully a Moulder mutant rat infantry. I just want Moulder to be better then just spamming giant rats
General take away about foot heroes: they desperately need a buff and the ability to Join a unit like in 40k. I'd love playing khorne again if my heroes could live in a horde of blood warriors, and not just get sniped off the field turn 1-2
Another great episode Vince. Always nice to see Tom.
I hit the like button, and now i have the drive to finish painting my army
One fine day with a clattery woof and a squeaky purr
A baby was born in Shyish and it caused a little stir
No orruk's buzzard, no zombie wizard frog
Just an chiroptean skeletal feline canine giant Bat-Bone-Cat-Dog
Bat-Bone-Cat-Dog
Bat-Bone-Cat-Dog
Alone in the realms was a giant Bat-Bone-Cat-Dog
Out on Azyr or back in Shyish
All kinda mortals giving Bat-Bone-Cat-Dog Sh*t
Gotta rise above it, gotta carry Manfred along
Gotta fight together, gotta sing this song
Bat-Bone-Cat-Dog
Bat-Bone-Cat-Dog
Alone in the realms was a giant Bat-Bone-Cat-Dog
Make Celestant-Prime 600 pts and reflect that. Change my mind.
"he's trash & you know it" - VV
I love that you can take a vampire lord in LoB and turn him into a blender. +1 attack, +1 to wound, +1 AS, 3 damage with flaming weapon and (if you take nefy) atherial (but back to 3+ save). It's just a shame you can do all of this on a VLoZD as well.
It's actually an example of something that actually SHOULDN'T be as strong as it is. VLZOD is what he not because he deserves to be, but because he necessarily needs to be the "Megaboss on Maw-Krusha" of SBG.
And my proof is look at Vamp lord vs Megaboss.
Vamp lord is a nobody. Weak profile, his buff is a disconnect because it's a strong buff that shouldn't be free, and yet he himself does basically nothing other than being a wizard.
Megaboss on the other hand, is one of the only foot hero melee assassins that are right. Good synergy with double commands, strong attack profile, flexible, durable for his category, and you always get his points in. The perfect sub commander.
So why are the mounted versions of vamp lords 3 tiers higher? It's not even the same unit. It's not a VAMPIRE LORD on zombie dragon, it's a Megaboss on Zombie dragon. Or some other unit on zombie dragon. It's not lore appropriate.
@markpandelidis2079 the vampire lord has the same profile as the sord VLoZD. The problem is the dragon. That thing can punch well above its weight class especially when the lance is equipped and you get the first charge in. But that's essentially just a charge boost, next fight it hits like a wet noodle. The vampire Lords on foot should be as they were in old world. A genuine threat by themselves that you could not ignore.
@@spartanpiplup6229 that might be true, I'm not familiar with the old world lore and even AOS SbG lore.
I will point out that you contradict yourself in saying "the problem is the dragon" and then you say the lance is also a problem.
The problems are exactly what I said, the unit is not a vampire lord. It's not the same unit on a dragon. IF it didn't have the lance option, we could be closer to what it's supposed to be. The foot vamp also doesn't have a warscroll spell. There's alot of problems with how SBG was written. Zombies have the same save as alot of other units that clearly shouldn't be the same. If you consider save to be armor or evasion (or a combination of both) zombies have neither. How can they have the same save as blissbard archers, hobgrots, Squig hoppers etc. the cognitive dissonance is a huge problem.
I am excited for new Skaven stuff but I hope it doesn't invalidate the old list entirely, simply because I JUST started collecting Skaven and I'll be REALLY upset if my stuff became useless so quick after dropping the entry fee lol
"Full steam ahead" on the Snarling Badger game... setting hint?
Not yet. :)
Thanks for this one, Vince, As I start to get into AoS this was super helpful for figuring out how to build my lists and where I want my points going. Would you consider unit recursion, or something that improves already-existing recursion, a utility worth having in your heroes?
Glad it was helpful! Absolutely, that kind of recursion is great utility.
WarHammer Weekly: The Skirmish Game sounds great, I wanna play a Tom list.
Great episode and discussion - thanks for this.
I absolutely love the Alarielle model, but they just can't get her pointed right for what she does, and she's really easy to kill -- even with the (possible) resurrection. Each time her rules are updated, I get sad as they miss the mark yet again.
Love that you looped in total war games, that is how i came to warhammer. And those games got foot heroes right, they slap and their limiting factor is speed but fantastic for holding ground and killing regular troops. Its a noteworthy difference i wish AoS would address
Thanks Tom! your pick of the week made my day!
As a Xennial, I appreciated the Marvel Masterpiece/Jusko reference. What were people's fav cards/art from that set? I liked: Spiderman, Beast, Psylocke, Iron Man, & Wolverine.
Just a heads up that this video isnt in your warhammer weekly playlist/podcast area
Morale and command ability chains of command going away as limitations did away with two big thematic jobs for tier 1 sergeant guys.
Gets a like just for 'Bone-Bat-Cat-Dog'
Solid scrubs reference also vince
Is this why most Underworlds warbands are called trash? They are usually damage dealer foot heroes + small units.
Vince furry confirmed :) Seriously though hoping for Kurnothi and if , and my sources suggest it is correct, this follows 40k starter will be 2 spearheads plus and I am up for a mini Skaven force
Great episode! I too wish there was no mismatch in tiers and that they wouldnt be afraid to make good and pricey foot heroes. I want dnd in my games dammit!
Tier 6 heroes - Vince, Tom and Tyler
Basically every single named hero in Nighthaunt is a tier under. That book got a lot of praise initially but its essentially another 2.5 type skaven battletome. Kurdoss might be one of the most pathetic faction leader tier characters in the game. Awlrach and Reikenor are at the 150 point some dude tier. Olynder is a 270 budget mortach and questionable at that price even. Black Coach is still doing nothing except being a free battle tactic.
Hitting things to make dings!
Puny god models! Bring back the godbeasts! Vorgaroth the Scarred & Skalok the Skull Host of Khorne!
Ok,I'm off to buy a Lord Relictor... thanks
Alarielle is more of a lords of war tier hero that comes with a sideboard of 200-250 pts imo. Shes not really 800 pts
Hi guys what do you think about the glottkin? He is 580 points
He clearly came out as a "god" model, but has slowly been falling into the Lords of War group.
Lady Olynder has always felt off to me next to the other Mortarchs. Yes, she has no monster mount, so it makes sense that her combat damage and her overall wounds are lower. But then make her stronger at buffing and/or debuffing to bring her over 300 points. With a warscroll worthy of that points cost, of course. And yes, 12 wounds sounds about right. She has no big mount, but she has attendants, like Katakros.
As for the Greater Daemons, I am more annoyed by their inconsistencies than their points placement. Right now, Bloodthirsters are clearly too cheap and too weak, Keeper of Secrets is just too weak and Great Unclean One is the only one over 400 points. And thus the only one in the next category / the only one you can't ally into StD in a 2000 points game. Make them ALL in the 370-400 points range or make them ALL cost over 400 points (with appropriate warscrolls)!
Btw, the reason why Bloodthirsters are a bit weaker and noticeably cheaper than the other ones is clearly because their miniatures and bases are smaller. Size bias at work again. Watch them soar up in points and killiness once they get new, larger models on 130mm bases.
I hope that Tyrion will be just a god-dude on a horse - and not some kind of nonsense with dragons or phoenixes around.
Mortisan soulreaper…
You claim Sigvald killed a small army of fyreslayers and his scroll does not reflect this. While I agree 100% are we sure he did not kill a single fyreslayer in a hall of mirrors? I mean who could tell it wasnt the same fyreslayer on repeat??
I think Archeon is actually the biggest example of this; and why I hate the model. He’s like 95% big monster 5% dude. They couldnt just make a dude be really strong they had to put it on a big ugly dragon.
I also have those Marvel cards
damn, vince lookin svelte AF
This shows they are such a model company
A good example of being bigger the more important you are is One Piece, where people are inexplicably 3 times as large as normal humans just because they are stronger and more important.
Heroes need to be compensated for losing their role as command ability issuers. That single loss of role has derailed so many models as viable candidates for inclusion
They should make Yndrasta hit like a truck. They make more angels and I’d throw money at gw lol
You and me both!
couldn't finish this episode, whatever the hell that super loud scratching needs to be resolved.
That would be Tom and his Mic. And yes, he needs to stop that.
It also exists in units as well.
And I'd also like to point out, it's not necessarily a bias on the part of the players, GW WRITES THE LORE. They create the bias in the narrative and setting that surrounds the characters, and then they write shitty warscrolls.
And I agree, the mounts take up WAY WAY WAY WAY too much of the power scale of some of these models, like archeon, teclis etc.
But ya back to what I was saying, something like zombies, such a disparity between what a stupid horde of brain dead zombies that aren't supposed to really do anything other than clogg the board, yet they are pointed as an elite unit because of their new warscroll. SBG has some of the worst offenders this edition.
Herohammer 🤢🤢🤢
cheap melee heroes can't be good else they'd become an auto include.
I think they don't have to be cheap, they can be more points, but they have a long way to go to even be average, let alone good. :)
I'd gladly take doubling the cost of an aspiring deathbringer in khorne if they could blender through a unit and not just fold