Multiplayer & Alternative Win Conditions - Warhammer Weekly 02072024
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- Опубликовано: 6 фев 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things Warhammering! This week, we are talking about multiplayer AoS and alternative win conditions and why we should have more of it!
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My already immense respect for Vince grows, seeing him flying solo to never let us down . 👏
You rock Vince!! Honestly, every so often in my daily life it crosses my mind that you’ve never missed a show. Your dedication is truly impressive.
Thanks for being a leader and inspiration to the hobby :)
Appreciate your dedication to the show
Did you mean to write: "Appreciate your dedication to the show, sir?" I've heard that for comment to count for YT algorithm it needs 7 words. Lets support great and powerful Vince :)
I keep bringing this up and I ~know~ I'm not the only one that has thought of this: get rid of the objective points as a general rule - they should only be for King of the Hill type missions. The whole point of having an objective point is to symbolize the significance of controlling certain battlefield points in a battle; instead just have bunkers or battlements where you would put the objectives - that gives the OP real strategic significance. For the missions and point scoring, decades of video games have demonstrated that there are only (4?) technically unique player missions: seek and destroy / defend, escort, King of the Hill and retrieve. This concept gives WAY more variability and more strategic and interesting gameplay for any of the Warhammer systems. Defender escorts 1 - 3 titanic units through a defined path across the map??? The skull kicker mission from 40k and its inverse, retrieving intel/rescue hostages where players have to got to an objective then get BACK and has one or more units unable to fight during the escort??? Tell me those don't turn you on!
I completely agree! I'm so perplexed as to why objectives aren't terrain features! That said, we've typically imagined the abstractive points as realmstone fallen from the sky, or treasure revealed, but you don't have to get it off the table. Either way, it's still fun.
PoorHammer Podcast's Horde Mode is a very fun way to play PvE. We play this mode even when there are only 2 of us at a game night.
44:06 I've played some Frost/Stargrave games with PVE in them and it was nice to shake up such an otherwise small game. I still haven't had a chance to play one of the multiplayer PVE boss-raid style Ultimate Encounters in Marvel Crisis Protocol but I am looking forward to seeing how those rules pan out
Alright, not neccessarily about Multiplayer but objectives:
Get rid of the magic circles. Make objectives actual gaming pieces of terrain the armies are fighting over. Then seize the opportunity to make those Terrain-Objectives actually do something:
Increase magic, grant a ward, minus to hit, a teleport - Get creative and esnure objectives are important because they can alter the flow of battle (and grant victory points, maybe?). One could even tie Battle tactics to such objectives.
Imo this would be a meaningful way to combine terrain with objectives. GW could sell more Models representing those objectives, we could have a battle about controling the battle field - it's a win win.
With my idea it does not matter if one needs to be within a range of such a terrain oder if the terrain is designed in a way that let's models be placed upon it (playing on Terrain, COOL novel idea, right!?)
cheers, thx for the show Vince and kudos for pulling it of as an army of one.
Word!
Here is what I would love to see out of your new battle plans. Story Driven, Thematic battleplans. Here are a couple cliché examples that might work:
capture the flag
Collect the relics from the ancient ruins.
Rescue the Princess from the tower.
Collect the head of the monster that has been terrorizing the land
The idea is I want objectives that are things that need to be done, not just places you need to stand.
100% agree!
Props for the commitment to never let the community down!
Gotta appreciate a determined man! The show must go on! haha. Not gonna lie it was kinda nice just listening to you tonight as Im sure all too many of us already enjoy your solo content as is. Oh man Atlanta is hosting the championship again!? I didnt get to go last year as a spectactor due being out of the country but Ill definitely make sure to go this time. Im really glad GW is recognizing Atlanta and the surrounding area more as its a huge hotspot for us tabletop gamers. We have 3 Warhammer stores and easily a dozen gaming shops so GW has to be aware of the sales in my area. Im sure there were plenty of locals who attended the championships as fans
I was not expecting the chat on multiplayer to have Vince talking solo.
Doing a show on multiplayer with an avatar of you for a co-host seems like a commentary on what it's like for you to partner with Tom
Im already writing out that sigmar ball battle plan, it'll be realmstone ball, players have a goal opposite their deployment, multiple ball objectives will spawn throughout game on center line of scrimmage,when a realm ball objective is controlled place a token next to the unit with possession. Realmball can be dropped when wounds suffered. For added wackiness roll to determine what realm the ball comes from for a status effect applied to the possessing unit.
Always so impressed by your never miss a show mentally. Making a homebrew ptg Soni really appreciate this inspiration.
We have moving objectives in Star Wars Legion and they are very competitive. It can be to rescue an hostage or to move boxes around for example. Very fun!
No rest for the wicked. Well done sir! I have to thank you. Due to your vids about hobby cheating, I finally finished painting my Sylvaneth army 2000 pts. Thank you for the inspiration and tricks to get it done. Next up is LRL for path to glory campaign and investing in some trolls, which will be fun.
I would be very interested in the design of a "cozy game", I've often wondered what can be done in design with the components of miniatures and board-space and terrain without "combat" as the "verb"
“Fruits of a your big challenge”? Vince becomes a vanitas artist!
*insert gif about sheer pure commitment*
I think AoS (in general, not just mulitplayer games) really needs a secondary source of victory points besides just standing on objectives. Something that rewards killing specific targets or doing unusual movements. They tried to provide such a thing with battle tactics and grand strategies. Which I appreciate, but the system as implemented surely has its flaws.
I really liked your ideas about alternative win conditions. Especially about the kill points. Instead of using BTs and GSs, a battle pack could provide a short list (3-6) of "kill goals". That are each worth 1-3 VP, depending on what they demand. (For example: Gain 2 VP if you kill the enemy general, +1 VP if you kill that general with your own general.) A short universal list is easy for all players to keep track off. And then some individual battle plans may add, remove or replace kill goals from that general list with 1-3 of their own, battle plan specific goals. Which could be more kill goals or goals tied to specific movement maneuvers or special interactions with elements of that battle plan.
Thanks again for the great game of commander at Holy Wars.
Absolutely! Total blast.
I commend your dedication to the show.
As a european I will never try the holy wars event so I decided to try and organise something similar in france. First trial is in march :P
Super appreciate your channel. So many good discussions.
I appreciate that!
Are we sure nobody kidnapped Vince? 😅 Looks like a hostage vid.
Thanks for taking this as seriously as you do Vince 🙏🏻
Vincey V is the GOAT
Can't wait to see what you come up with!
a degree of asynchronicity is always good for games that lean more towards fun and interesting vs competitive. If we look at the latest batch of matchplay battleplans, they are all just mirror matches that have a cascading effect that makes the table to a degree no matter. This is ultimately a tabletop game and what the table is should have an important impact on the player experience.
I have been playing the SAGA Universes games recently and they have a lot of asynchronous game types and have placing terrain down a meta-game representing the generals involved trying to find a battlefield that is to their advantage.
There is a lot of interesting stuff out there to draw from. Have the game have a story baked into its structure to help inform the type of play you want. The battleplans I mentioned above feel so dry and soulless because ultimately they really do not reflect anything. Even derided battleplans in the past had at the very least some real flavor to them.
Good man Vince getting it done
Go on Vince lad! Rocking that hotel vid!
I do think this is worth exploring, as we all look for different game experiences. Moonstone does multi-player beautifully basically there are 12 models on the table and how many each player has is a portion of that (upto 4 player).
My big surprise last year was combat patrol for 40k it's an interesting way to play. Our group has zero interest in 2k games of 40k but we enjoyed combat patrol. Now considering taking the missions and using 750 to 1 k games. Hopefully the new spearhead is hinting at that coming to AoS.
Star wars legions mission system is worth a look, you create the mission between you at start of game. They also have missions that I'd call video game inspired, bomb run, powerball etc, hostage exchange etc. Also scenary mission packs make the scenary the core of the mission
Oh crisis protocol ultimate encounters are worth a look for pve, and they have some as free downloads
Vince is that lone hero, turn 4, standing alone on a battle mat, after his player has made some poor choices, surrounded by chaos
New player friendly, which is oftgen helped a little by a small amount of randomness. If for example objectives switch places the "Oh I've made a weak list so the new players can have fun, behold my unkillable unit' type players can't just lock an objective down for the whole game as easily.
I would really like to run a small 3-game doubles tournament at the club where someone more experienced teams up with someone less experienced after we get the new edition so maps that works for that. :D
As for PvE, I'm having a 'hex crawl' where Destruction is pushing Order back, and in one of the hexes I hope to have some Tremors that might pop up where the most noise happens and just stick around for a round of fighting, I am just not quite sure exactly when and how. And that is not just PvE, that's PvP and PvE, so.
Thought the art on the box was Yndraste, but with a helmet (of her own face ha)
Vince, you're a champ 🏆
Whhoooaaaa when was the last time you did a show solo??? I don't remember that ever happening before! And I think I've literally watched every single episode ever.
Lots of reaction shows have been alone. It happens
Path to glory is probably the best medium for everything you've discussed. You can have a battle0lan that has 4 750pts armies that represent a scouting force and the winner gets first deployment against those players in the next battle. Or a battleplan where both players need to catch and kill 3 or 4 fast grot heroes who have stolen a relic and they move around the board but only a foot wizard can hold it. There's so much space in path to glory to ease new players in, guide their army building and still appeal to more experienced players by throwing something new at them.
The problem is I don’t want to play PtG (and I know I’m not alone) because I’m not looking for the longer experience or all that extra weight. I don’t mean anything negative, just to say that it’s a lot of extra rules for PTG, I’m
Looking to have the same basic singular play experience, just with different numbers of people.
@VinceVenturella I get that. I was using it as an example of a space where they can expand and experiment. And there's nothing to say they can't take something like a good battleplan or a wacky set of unit rules (the ritual is my favourite example) and slap it into open play or a matched play battleplan with a few tweaks or balances.
You're right in that PtG has too much bloat for those that aren't into that sort of thing and I think an open play battlepack would be a better place for silly and experimental stuff that can then be used in other battlepacks.
That big project better be very hairy.
Could also have kill x by turn t, or before opponents satisfies condition c.
Id love a solid multiplayer format. But how do you even play multilayer? How do you do with command points and turnorder?
It’s pretty easy, we just go around clockwise, but that being said, we’ll need to cover that as well!
Vince, what is a good way to share a multiplayer battlepack that I whipped up with you?
Twitter probably, that would work.
I'm not on there anymore, do you take messages on the SB discord?
Have you tried the mtg (ai) that is full of zombie tokens and spells and as you draw from that deck everyone plays against the zombie hordes to survive? Was created by a judge here in Spain years ago. Maybe you could do similar stuff in a coop survival with agnostic Minis
Sure have, played it many times with different zombie decks, great fun.
👍👍
You alluded to this fact in your video Vince but I do think you need to be very careful with alternative point scoring with unit types. The different factions are very unbalanced in this regard. I think that's why GW battle plans moved away from scoring objectives with certain heroes etc.
Interact when it's not your turn.
Win conditions are the biggest issue I have with of all GWs big games right now, it's just the same "stand in this spot" no matter if you play AoS or 40k or whatever.
For games that are so heavy on their lore and background, I am genuinely flabbergasted how we ended up at this point.
Why even bother putting any effort in painting or modelling if at the end of the day, the entire game just revolves around nebulous "objective" circles on the ground, which also are not actually there, because that could impact the game. Even in competitive videogames objectives usually do more than just "win game", they can give resources for you to use, they can unlock special actions while you hold them, ect.
I am so sick of standing in circles. I *especially* hate progressive scoring for standing in a circle on turn 1 and turn 2 and turn 3 and...
I guess the Anglo-Saxons won the Battle of Hastings, not the Normans. They stood on the objective hill all day! Scored turns 1-4 and only left on turn 5! Who cares that the Normans owned the field at the end of the day, they didn't score until turn 5.