Hookless road bike rims are the dumbest idea EVER. Lose enough internal pressure due to a burp or puncture and the system integrity is so compromised that any significant lateral loading on the sidewall is likely to cause a roll off. Adding an insert makes the problem even WORSE. Consider this: Tire loses enough pressure that it is pressing on the insert, introduce a lateral load on the sidewall and the insert begins to act as an internal lever on the inside of the sidewall, effectively CAUSING the roll off.
It's worth noting that DeGendt was also running tire inserts, which occupy internal volume in the tire thereby raising pressure. The specific liner he was running also expands by design as pressure drops... so a momentary loss in pressure would initiate expansion, that may then exceed the overall 73psi limit once the momentary pressure drop has stopped. Still have a lot of questions about hookless but there's a number of variables here that play into this specific instance.
So true that there are a lot of contributing factors when it comes to hookless wheel failures. It is worth noting that in an interview between Ronan McLaughlin (on behalf of the Escape Collective) and reps from Zipp Wheels shortly after the De Gendt incident, Zipp themselves commented that inserts are not a contributing factor when it comes to failures. While they stated that they have only done preliminary testing at this point, their result so far show that inserts have no affect on impact resistance; they neither increase nor decrease the risk of a wheel failure due to impact.
Great video, Mike. I am a newly avid cyclist and I learned a lot about hookless. Hey, I have a suggestion on your channel... it would be great if you could use the community feature, I'd love to be able to have a way to post questions which may give you some ideas about content. I am also based in Toronto. I also loved your Rouvy vs. Zwift video, if you ride on Rouvy, happy to invite you to ride with our crew.
Thanks for your comments! I had never even considered the Community tab until you mentioned it. Could be because I never knew it was there-haha! In any case, like you say, it’s a great way to connect with my audience and start to form a community. For me, I’d like to hear more from my audience more, and the ability to run polls, or just ask specific questions, is a nice feature. Time to start posting… Sure, please connect with me on Rouvy. My User ID is “MikeMillar.” I don’t use it a lot when the weather is nice, but off-season I do. And I do prefer riding with others on Rouvy rather than by myself. I did less virtual races this off-season than last season as I focused almost entirely on Zone 2 training. I find it hard to stay within my target zone when riding with others.
They are not for me. I had a set on loan for a few months last year while I waited for a hub repair on a hooked rim. I weight about 225lbs. I put all the conversations aside while I got to ride a set of hookless rims that cost around $3k US. As soon as I was home, I set the bike in a floor stand. I heard a loud noise. Apparently setting the wheel on floor stand push the tire in and a lot of the air came out. Keeping the inflation around 73 psi made the ride feel too soft. That could be me. That made me hesitant in turns and of course potholes stones etc. They never really felt safe since pushing the tire in on a floor stand. That made me nervous when I was riding if it was that easy for air to escape. Also, the fluid in the tire escaped. Not a lot but I needed to clean up the area. Having used hooked tubeless, they are great. No issues with them. For nearly $3k US I expected better. My hooked wheel set was cheaper and works better as I have been using for the past 3 season.
@@dickieblench5001 It isn't the PSI that matters. It is the hookless tires. They were on loan to me while another wheel hub was being repaired. I am no fan of hookless and don't see using them anytime soon. I am 225lbs and ride on Tubeless clinchers at 80 PSI it is a far better ride than the old 110 PSI clinchers. You don't get beat up and if there is a slight decrease in speed I don't really care. I would rather feel better at the end of a ride than sore and beat up. However, age has taken its toll on me.
@@dickieblench5001 Yes! I am well aware of tubulars. I would use them before I would ever consider hookless tubeless tires and rims. I tried Tubeless Clinchers and all I can say is that I'm hooked (pun intended)! They run lower PSI which makes for a better overall experience. Age doesn't help but we all have to do what is best for the each of us.
Great video. Very informative. And glad to see you debunk the comparison to car and motorbike tyres - i have read the comparison in many places and it is a stupid comparison for the reasons you mention.
Thanks for the comments…and for watching! I once blew a tubeless tire off a hookless rim while trying to inflate it. I never want to experience that ever again 😬
@@bikesbymike I watched another video of that happening which led me to your video. I was in the market for a pair of Zipp wheels, but after that video and yours, I've changed my mind. The cost saving (and some small weight saving) is not worth the risk IMHO when I can get just as much enjoyment from a pair of high-quality hooked wheels. Thanks again for the great content. Best one of these I've seen and I've watched a few recently trying to decide on whether I go the zipps or not. For me, not.
@@brb4754 If you haven't looked at some of the Chinese direct-to-consumer wheel companies, I'd strongly recommend it. You'll find savings of at least 50% for the same quality wheels as those sold by Western brands. To give you an extreme example, I built up a Light Bicycle carbon wheelset for $1,300 CAD. In comparison, an equivalent quality Western branded wheelset would have cost me $4,000 - $5,000. Actually, that's what motivated me to get into wheel building in the first place :) Remember that most brand name wheel companies do not make their own rims, spokes or hubs. They are essentially assemblers who may or may not be doing their own design. And most of these brand name companies are having their rims built by one of the many Chinese companies that produce 90% of the rims worldwide. It wasn't always the case, but the cutting edge wheel companies are all now based in China. I've talked a lot about Light Bicycle wheels on my channel, but there are many other quality options, like 9Velo, Winspace and Farsports. I know you weren't asking about brands, but since you're shopping, I'd thought I'd mention it.
Good video! Id be slightly more skeptical of manufacturers compatible tire charts though! A lot of the diameters they list as comparable, are not compatible under ISO or ETRTO standards. Id wager they have done in-house testing, and deemed them good enough, because they want to be able to market the wheel as compatible with a wider range of tires. Standard organizations exist exactly for this reason though. For example The zipp 353 De Gendnt was riding by standards is only compatible down to 29mm tires, not the 28mm he was riding, even though zipp says the 28mm is supported.
Right. Those are all really good points. I forgot about that difference between the Zipp and the ISO/ETRTO standards. On a related note, I question the ability of bicycle tire manufacturers, and rim companies, to pump out tires and rims to spec. I’ve tried various tire and rim combos over the years and have seen a variety of fits from frustratingly tight to my last pair of tires I ditched that required three wraps of rim tape to seat. I think the bigger issue, separate from the hookless debate, is that rim and tire companies haven’t done a great job creating great compatibility between the two. I almost think the only solution is for rim companies to produce their own tires or vice versa.
Good point! Ive experienced the same! Another issue with that, is bead depth, or lip depth! It gets decreased with every wrap of tape, so every wrap of tape is actually taking it further out of spec and increasing the odds that it comes off the rim. It seems problematic that a system with such a catastrophic mode of failure is being marketed right on the edge ( or below ) acceptable tolerances as deemed by standards organizations! I personally feel like it's unacceptable for any mode of failure for a tire to be "coming off the wheel", it's just unsafe, and people will get hurt. Like you said, even if it only happens to 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 riders, they would probably be fine in most circumstances if the tire stays on the wheel. If it comes off, you are hitting the ground, and there are a lot of situations where that can have very bad outcomes for not just the rider themselves but potentially other people they are riding with. @@bikesbymike
You may want to check out the podcast I mentioned under my Community Tab...a couple reps from Zipp wheels were questioned about the safety and reliability of hookless rims. Let's just say that my opinion hasn't changed after hearing their answers.
The manufacturers make more money from hookless, how are the suits supposed to get their millions in bonuses if we do not buy their products which need to be replaced more often. Hookless is not for suckers, it makes the rim manufacturers a lot more money.
@@laneromel5667 Did you just figure it out? That's exactly what makes you a sucker. They make a cheaper wheel but don't pass the cost savings to the rider. But what of all the performance benefits? Fake news. There are zero performance benefits of hookless. Btw did you see Tadej Pogacar crash in stage 2 of the Giro? Yeah. His tire came off of his hookless wheel.
I believe hookless is foolish and dangerous. It saves manufacturers costs, doesn't help customers at all. Just foolish. Hookless has been around for 100 years...it's called a tubular rim. Now ask yourself what the glue is for people!😉
Yup. I was just watching the NERO Show where they were talking about a set of what they considered to be super high-end, super expensive, Western brand name hookless wheels that are "very good." Presumably that assessment was made on the basis that they look good. Another example of falling for marketing hype. Amazes me that some people have no problem paying super-premium prices, for a standard wheelset, where the company selling them dumbed down the rims to reduce their manufacturing costs by a minuscule amount.
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Hookless road bike rims are the dumbest idea EVER.
Lose enough internal pressure due to a burp or puncture and the system integrity is so compromised that any significant lateral loading on the sidewall is likely to cause a roll off.
Adding an insert makes the problem even WORSE. Consider this: Tire loses enough pressure that it is pressing on the insert, introduce a lateral load on the sidewall and the insert begins to act as an internal lever on the inside of the sidewall, effectively CAUSING the roll off.
It's worth noting that DeGendt was also running tire inserts, which occupy internal volume in the tire thereby raising pressure. The specific liner he was running also expands by design as pressure drops... so a momentary loss in pressure would initiate expansion, that may then exceed the overall 73psi limit once the momentary pressure drop has stopped. Still have a lot of questions about hookless but there's a number of variables here that play into this specific instance.
So true that there are a lot of contributing factors when it comes to hookless wheel failures. It is worth noting that in an interview between Ronan McLaughlin (on behalf of the Escape Collective) and reps from Zipp Wheels shortly after the De Gendt incident, Zipp themselves commented that inserts are not a contributing factor when it comes to failures. While they stated that they have only done preliminary testing at this point, their result so far show that inserts have no affect on impact resistance; they neither increase nor decrease the risk of a wheel failure due to impact.
Great video, Mike. I am a newly avid cyclist and I learned a lot about hookless. Hey, I have a suggestion on your channel... it would be great if you could use the community feature, I'd love to be able to have a way to post questions which may give you some ideas about content. I am also based in Toronto. I also loved your Rouvy vs. Zwift video, if you ride on Rouvy, happy to invite you to ride with our crew.
Thanks for your comments! I had never even considered the Community tab until you mentioned it. Could be because I never knew it was there-haha! In any case, like you say, it’s a great way to connect with my audience and start to form a community. For me, I’d like to hear more from my audience more, and the ability to run polls, or just ask specific questions, is a nice feature. Time to start posting…
Sure, please connect with me on Rouvy. My User ID is “MikeMillar.” I don’t use it a lot when the weather is nice, but off-season I do. And I do prefer riding with others on Rouvy rather than by myself. I did less virtual races this off-season than last season as I focused almost entirely on Zone 2 training. I find it hard to stay within my target zone when riding with others.
They are not for me. I had a set on loan for a few months last year while I waited for a hub repair on a hooked rim. I weight about 225lbs. I put all the conversations aside while I got to ride a set of hookless rims that cost around $3k US. As soon as I was home, I set the bike in a floor stand. I heard a loud noise. Apparently setting the wheel on floor stand push the tire in and a lot of the air came out. Keeping the inflation around 73 psi made the ride feel too soft. That could be me. That made me hesitant in turns and of course potholes stones etc. They never really felt safe since pushing the tire in on a floor stand. That made me nervous when I was riding if it was that easy for air to escape. Also, the fluid in the tire escaped. Not a lot but I needed to clean up the area. Having used hooked tubeless, they are great. No issues with them. For nearly $3k US I expected better. My hooked wheel set was cheaper and works better as I have been using for the past 3 season.
Thanks for sharing. Nice that the hookless wheels were just loaners and you got your hooked rims back.
Who the hell wants to ride a road bike at 73psi??!
@@dickieblench5001 It isn't the PSI that matters. It is the hookless tires. They were on loan to me while another wheel hub was being repaired. I am no fan of hookless and don't see using them anytime soon. I am 225lbs and ride on Tubeless clinchers at 80 PSI it is a far better ride than the old 110 PSI clinchers. You don't get beat up and if there is a slight decrease in speed I don't really care. I would rather feel better at the end of a ride than sore and beat up. However, age has taken its toll on me.
@@johnlondon7620 I'm old school. I run tubulars at 100psi comfy as anything. The original hookless (but with glue). Clinchers at 90psi in the winter
@@dickieblench5001 Yes! I am well aware of tubulars. I would use them before I would ever consider hookless tubeless tires and rims. I tried Tubeless Clinchers and all I can say is that I'm hooked (pun intended)! They run lower PSI which makes for a better overall experience. Age doesn't help but we all have to do what is best for the each of us.
Great video. Very informative. And glad to see you debunk the comparison to car and motorbike tyres - i have read the comparison in many places and it is a stupid comparison for the reasons you mention.
Thanks for the comments…and for watching! I once blew a tubeless tire off a hookless rim while trying to inflate it. I never want to experience that ever again 😬
@@bikesbymike I watched another video of that happening which led me to your video. I was in the market for a pair of Zipp wheels, but after that video and yours, I've changed my mind. The cost saving (and some small weight saving) is not worth the risk IMHO when I can get just as much enjoyment from a pair of high-quality hooked wheels. Thanks again for the great content. Best one of these I've seen and I've watched a few recently trying to decide on whether I go the zipps or not. For me, not.
@@brb4754 If you haven't looked at some of the Chinese direct-to-consumer wheel companies, I'd strongly recommend it. You'll find savings of at least 50% for the same quality wheels as those sold by Western brands. To give you an extreme example, I built up a Light Bicycle carbon wheelset for $1,300 CAD. In comparison, an equivalent quality Western branded wheelset would have cost me $4,000 - $5,000. Actually, that's what motivated me to get into wheel building in the first place :)
Remember that most brand name wheel companies do not make their own rims, spokes or hubs. They are essentially assemblers who may or may not be doing their own design. And most of these brand name companies are having their rims built by one of the many Chinese companies that produce 90% of the rims worldwide. It wasn't always the case, but the cutting edge wheel companies are all now based in China. I've talked a lot about Light Bicycle wheels on my channel, but there are many other quality options, like 9Velo, Winspace and Farsports.
I know you weren't asking about brands, but since you're shopping, I'd thought I'd mention it.
Good video! Id be slightly more skeptical of manufacturers compatible tire charts though! A lot of the diameters they list as comparable, are not compatible under ISO or ETRTO standards. Id wager they have done in-house testing, and deemed them good enough, because they want to be able to market the wheel as compatible with a wider range of tires. Standard organizations exist exactly for this reason though. For example The zipp 353 De Gendnt was riding by standards is only compatible down to 29mm tires, not the 28mm he was riding, even though zipp says the 28mm is supported.
Right. Those are all really good points. I forgot about that difference between the Zipp and the ISO/ETRTO standards.
On a related note, I question the ability of bicycle tire manufacturers, and rim companies, to pump out tires and rims to spec. I’ve tried various tire and rim combos over the years and have seen a variety of fits from frustratingly tight to my last pair of tires I ditched that required three wraps of rim tape to seat. I think the bigger issue, separate from the hookless debate, is that rim and tire companies haven’t done a great job creating great compatibility between the two. I almost think the only solution is for rim companies to produce their own tires or vice versa.
Good point! Ive experienced the same! Another issue with that, is bead depth, or lip depth! It gets decreased with every wrap of tape, so every wrap of tape is actually taking it further out of spec and increasing the odds that it comes off the rim. It seems problematic that a system with such a catastrophic mode of failure is being marketed right on the edge ( or below ) acceptable tolerances as deemed by standards organizations! I personally feel like it's unacceptable for any mode of failure for a tire to be "coming off the wheel", it's just unsafe, and people will get hurt. Like you said, even if it only happens to 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 riders, they would probably be fine in most circumstances if the tire stays on the wheel. If it comes off, you are hitting the ground, and there are a lot of situations where that can have very bad outcomes for not just the rider themselves but potentially other people they are riding with. @@bikesbymike
You nailed it. Hookless are for suckers.
You may want to check out the podcast I mentioned under my Community Tab...a couple reps from Zipp wheels were questioned about the safety and reliability of hookless rims. Let's just say that my opinion hasn't changed after hearing their answers.
The manufacturers make more money from hookless, how are the suits supposed to get their millions in bonuses if we do not buy their products which need to be replaced more often. Hookless is not for suckers, it makes the rim manufacturers a lot more money.
@@laneromel5667 Did you just figure it out? That's exactly what makes you a sucker. They make a cheaper wheel but don't pass the cost savings to the rider. But what of all the performance benefits? Fake news. There are zero performance benefits of hookless. Btw did you see Tadej Pogacar crash in stage 2 of the Giro? Yeah. His tire came off of his hookless wheel.
Riding on the rim. What's not to like?
I believe hookless is foolish and dangerous. It saves manufacturers costs, doesn't help customers at all. Just foolish. Hookless has been around for 100 years...it's called a tubular rim. Now ask yourself what the glue is for people!😉
Yup. I was just watching the NERO Show where they were talking about a set of what they considered to be super high-end, super expensive, Western brand name hookless wheels that are "very good." Presumably that assessment was made on the basis that they look good. Another example of falling for marketing hype. Amazes me that some people have no problem paying super-premium prices, for a standard wheelset, where the company selling them dumbed down the rims to reduce their manufacturing costs by a minuscule amount.