The Jesus Fairytale - Dan Barker Debate Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 4 ноя 2018
- The Jesus Fairytale - Dan Barker Debate Part 1
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Recorded: April 14, 2003 - University of Wisconsin, Madison
Daniel Edwin Barker (born June 25, 1949) is an American atheist activist who served as an evangelical Christian preacher and musician for 19 years but left Christianity in 1984. He and his wife Annie Laurie Gaylor are the current co-presidents of the Freedom From Religion Foundation. He has written numerous articles for Freethought Today, an American freethought newspaper. He is the author of several books including Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist.
Barker has been an invited speaker at Rock Beyond Belief. He is on the speakers bureau of the Secular Student Alliance.
The atheist always looks more informed about the bible than the believer.
Exactly - because as atheists we require proof, well I certainly do
So after reading the bible for said proof, I became an atheist
Most Christian’s have never read the bible, they have just been indoctrinated by there parents and the pastors etc
They blindly follow without question, because once they start questioning the only logical conclusion is atheism
I just ask the believers one question .where’s the proof ? Not the Bible
@@htowner1327 i like to ask them who created their creator 😀
And can I please speak to his manager thanks
That's because those believers take it solely on faith.
That's because atheists are open minded not blinkered like religious folks. Jesus probably was a real person and he probably had physic powers but he wouldn't be the only person in history to claim that. If he was that in those day people might have thought he had magical powers, what I can't understand is why people still worship him 2 thousand years after his death.
'Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." Isaac Asimov
Exactly!, & the koran even brings a bit of comedy, i couldn't stop laughing at the nonsense!
The Bible is not a history book. It's astrology, numerology and mythology
Hear hear
@@rustyshackleford3320 Sorry to say, but "mythology" doesn't predict crucifixions and Jesus' crucifixion (Psalm 22:16.)
@@poozer1986 Christopher Hitchens? If only you were the real Hitchens, I'd love tossing you around in debates.
Religious debates always strike me as children (Christians) debating adults (atheists).
So you’re an enemy of the cross of Jesus Christ? I know he is God cause his spirit dwells within me. I have the testimony within, the devil wanted me dead in my sins, I will never forgive the wickedness Satan put me through.
@@samperry9507 Hahahahahaha. Another clown showed up.
@@samperry9507you proved the point. or sarcasm?
Because that's the level of mentality that abrahamic theists possess. It's even stated so in the Bible, that one needs to have the mind of a child in order to believe in this nonsense.
@@samperry9507you don't know shit. You are simply reasoning based on ideas that other people have told you. Also, testimony is a blatant example of the anecdotal fallacy and it is never evidence for anything.
I was a student at Catholic school at 10 years. During Bible Study, the Nun told us about Jesus walking on the Sea of Galilee. I asked the teacher, what was the purpose of walking on the sea, and scaring his followers? The Nun replied: "You do not believe?" I answered "I do not believe." "Who else does not believe. raise your hand." I raised up my hand, and one-by-one many hands went up, until about half the class had their hands in the air. Atheism, (and Anti-Theism), are not a "Belief System", nor, a "Religion" for me; it is rather a rejection of a great heap weird stories. I heard about all the violence, cruelty, murder, genocide, and strange behavior of the "Christian God", and I rejected it, along with that horrible depiction of a bleeding man nailed to a cross.
I'm suprised the nun didn;t say "whoever does not believe, hold out your hand" - so that she could conveniently whip them with a ruler.
10 years old, eh?
@@sitzliebowitz5544 Yes: 1959 Brooklyn New York.
@henrikrolfsen584 - Walking over water and calming the sea are classical Poseidon miracles as he is the god of the sea. In the story where they are constantly crossing a tiny lake and pretend it is the sea we see homeric motives from his story Odyssee. It is a bankruptsy when you need to copy Homer and use other god's miracle when your dead arameic speaking preacher obviously did nothing.
YOU JUST DENIED THE GREATESY LOVE BY GOD'S PERFECT SACRIFICE FOR SINS ON THE CROSS OF CALVARY FOR YOUR SOUL... PS: NO PAGAN ROMAN CATHOLIC WILL EVER SEE MARY AS THEIR GODDESS ON THE THRONE, REDEMPTRIX FROM ROME... A COUNTERFEIT POPE. AND BABYLONIAN WAFERS...
To be honest I think the most important thing to have explained is WHY the Lord’s prayer include a line like “Lead us not into temptation”.
Tell us why God would want to lead you into temptation at a rate so frequent that you have to BEG several times a day for Him not to do it.
The god of the OT loves setting traps on his creations
Oh geez come on that's easy, because God is a mean old grandpa.
Christ was sent to the desert to be tempted by THE HOLY SPIRIT!???? 🤔🤣🤣🤣🤣
Dumbhead
Because he tempted Abraham to slaughter his son😮😮
I've heard there were 500 witnesses to Jesus's resurrection..... er, no. You have one author who claims there were 500 witnesses. Big difference!
John Doe Are you saying the Bible's resurrection story is true because it hasn't been debunked in the Bible, or that such a debunking would have got anywhere near passing the canon- of-scripture even if there were? Not trying to straw man you, just to be clear.
And I haven't claimed that someone didn't exist, but rather expressed scepticism regarding the resurrection story itself and the 500 witnesses notion. We both know that there is no contemporary, extra Biblical evidence for either, so I'm failing to see your point.
You are free to believe whatever you like by faith but the: "there have always been debunkers" argument is weak.
@John Doe - The problem with your lengthy reply is its ridged, uncorroborated adherence to cherished, unmoving faith in Biblical resurrection apologetics. Attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible is not only circular but clearly an exercise in confirmation bias.
The ongoing "Historical vs mythical argument" is of little interest to me as I don't have a dog in that race. Even if there was an actual character on whom the New Testament stories were based that would in no way authenticate obvious embellished miracle claims such as the resurrection etc..... and neither does Bible referenced apologetics point to actual verification either. What might, in some small way, be of interest would be (preferably an abundance of) "extra-Biblical, contemporary" valid confirmation. But alas, as we both know, there is none. Nor do we have original texts to work with. Who actually wrote the Gospels?
Now I don't claim to be a scholar of Christianity or Bible scholarship but there are many atheist scholars out there such as Dan Barker, Matt Dillahunty, Bart D Ehrman, Dr Richard Carrier/Robert Price for the mythicist argument, and many more...... all of which are only a Google click away.
I suspect you will reject those names in favour of preferred Christian apologists but, IMHO, there is a clear way for open-mindedness to flourish. The Truth has nothing to fear from honest scepticism and critical analysis.
Good luck to you.......
@John Doe: "www.learnreligions.com/proofs-of-the-resurrection-700603" Again with the Biblical apologetics John. Do you truly find information from that link compelling? Really? It actually says "Further nonbiblical evidence for Jesus' existence comes from the writings of Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus"
I'm sure you are aware that such writing was not contemporary and amount to little more than hearsay. And that some of Josephus writing is said to be less than authentic, even by some Christian scholars.
If you truly wish to sharpen your apologetics I suggest a little study and research into opposing, atheist scholarly writing on the subject. You may not like what they say but you will at least be better informed. But there again, it could be your road to recovery :)
You are unworthy of my time @John Doe. You spout nonsense from an ancient book of fairy-tales. You are obviously a fake. I suggest you find someone else to preach your garbage to.
@John Doe Oh I like truth. Just haven't heard any from you. You are fake! You don't have a God, you have a blind faith belief. Nothing more. I have nothing to learn from you. Phony!! Edit.... anti-Semitic phony at that!!!
Christian chap claimed at the outset that he was going to provide proof outside of the bible. But then proceeded to pretty much 100% only use the bible ( or historical references to the bible) as proof.
jesus is regarded by most people as the most famous man in history but when he is supposed to have lived no bugger noticed him......up to 450 people in that area were able to write ......they wrote about other messianic figures but no one wrote about jesus.....
That's because before the Jesus cult took off thanks to Constantine the cult of Serapis was more poular and in the ascendancy during the time Jesus was supposed to have preached. Since the deity Serapis was formed by one of the Pharoahs consolidating the cults of 2 deities (one being Amun Ra, I think the other was Asclepius) one begins to gain a picture of a solar cult combined with a medical one. Which sounds very much like a proto Christianity.
Well he did mention Josephus, whose writings regarding Jesus have pretty much been discredited as a forgery.
You mean, the bible can't prove the bible?
Well crap. Back to the drawing board, they'll think of something, I'm Sure.
😁
@@bryanjackson8917 have you read that passage.....the paragragh before and the paragragh after makes perfect sense if you take out the jesus passage....its so obviously a forgery
The main character who is "supposed" to be all knowing and all powerful stays silent. What we have is people trying to prove his existence.
And that's where the problem lies
@@franckndayikeza991
Actually that’s where the solution should lie!
It’s all scam, there is no god!
@@franckndayikeza991 there are a lot of people claiming the existence of God, and all of them define him differently and all of them believe he has different purposes for humanity, the church and the universe.
there are as many versions of god as there are people
I think you've got that wrong - history already accepts the existence of Jesus - what you have today is people trying to prove he didn't exist.
if i was jesus, i would have resurrected, went to pontius and told him, "up yours" but it he didnt because it never happened
Pontius was justified in his doing according to this mythological story. 😂
Dan Barker is the BEST public speaker, and publicist on the subject of Theism/Atheism. He speaks with utter sharp logic, and plentiful knowledge. Millions could thank this man for their liberation from the mental enslavement of religion.
I would say Christopher hitchens
Also Bart Erhman
Errrr Christopher Hitchens? Sam Harris? Dawkins?
To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, "to be a Christian is to long to be a slave."
I’m one of them, but on a personal basis. I found Dan when the Internet was brand new in the home. Dan answered all the questions that had been burning inside me for years. I still have our emails from the early 90’s. I went from wearing a head-covering and long, plain dresses, homeschooling 6 kids for 19 years, no TV, and ultra-conservatism to being ME! It took me about 4 months to normalize our lives. All the grown kids with families are wonderfully normal atheists, as is my husband of 32 years. This is all thanks to Dan!
I am no longer impressed with Bible narratives and sacred scripture.
I am not a Bronze Age Hebrew living in a tribal society on the Sinai Peninsula.
I am living in a western democracy with a science education that supports reason and critical thinking.
Sorry, but goodbye Yahweh/Yeshua.
Last sentence: God be with you , Yahweh/Yeshua.
Exactly, they had an excuse 2000 years ago. We don't have one now.
@@marcuslei6743 There is no god. Luckily. If there was one, it would be worse - a god that noone can see and from whom we get absolutely nothing useful.
@@foxesruler I completely agree.
@@marcuslei6743 no, keep your shackles to yourself dork.
Dan Baker is not your opponent, he is your teacher for the next two hours
ALL GOD-HATERS ARE DEMONICALLY CONTROLLED, AND WILL FACE THE REVELATION 20 JUDGMENT
Religious people know full well how gullible humans are even today with all the knowledge we have. Yet somehow they’ve convinced themselves that 1st century people were immune to rumor, superstition, and cultish tendencies. If they wrote it down 2,000 years ago, it must be true! I don’t get that kind of confidence.
Does anyone else fast forward on the Theists talking?...I do this because they ALL have the same lousy argument. ✌
Well nailed
Maybe if you opened your mind passed your assumptions you'd learn something.
Yes I do, it is almost the same rhetoric and mumbo jumbo. Nothing new under the sun.
I’ll listen to maybe 5-10 minutes of their opening statement, but when it inevitably devolves into the same old tired apologetics we’ve heard a million and one times, then yeah, I’ll usually fast forward it.
Yep, the argument goes 'it's true because the good book tells me so'.
2021, and there are still educated people who debate this subject seriously. That only proves how much you can deform the human mind with early childhood indoctrination, and the stubborness of adults towards better knowledge. Our egos are our biggest threat.
First interesting point I've read here.
Bam! Well said!
And look at you, in this day and age you're here, listening to the discussion and taking your time to comment. Instead of doing one of the more valuable and fulfilling things modern people do, like playing games, posting your selfie on Instagram, or discussing the definition of the word woman
@@frusia123 The definition of the word woman is:- Adult Human Female. Never been one for games and selfies
@@darkblueman Good to know, we're on the same page in these matters then.
Dan is such a polite and friendly absolute cruise missile
So was Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc
@@henochparks Umm yeah. Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were very friendly guys....
@@AlmostSkeptic Yea just ask the women they raped. Hitler's girl committed suicide.
@@henochparks why not add. Bush, Nixon, Clinton, or Obama. They are pro level murderers too.
@@borninvincible but they did not target the religious. Atheists do.
Whenever someone claims there's evidence for christianity you know exactly how seriously to take them.
I take you serious... As an evidence denier for ANY evidence for Christianity. Meanwhile, your theology deals with unobserved historical events as well.
@@JosiahFickinger not only is there no evidence for it, it's most fundamental tenet is an immoral one.
@@JosiahFickinger
It’s pretty easy to deny stories that only exist in ancient religious myths and for which we don’t have a shred of verifiable evidence that they happened at all.😂
@@ramigilneas9274 That's a lie, there's plenty of evidence that points to a flood: how about lithostratagraphic columns containing very similar characteristics hundreds to thousands of miles apart?
@@JosiahFickinger
The flood has already been disproven centuries ago by devout Christian scientists why tried to find evidence for the global flood.😂
This guy said he went back to Christianity after looking at the data. Are you kidding me?
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply to painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."-Carl Sagan.
I think countries that are not plagued by superstition are gonna be the ones who will progress the most.
They already have.
There are many stories of Horus and other holy men being killed and rising from the dead long before the Jesus claim. I feel the Jesus claim was just another one of many.
I've long observed the fact that the concept of "god" existed long before Christians claimed that Jesus represented the "one true god".
@@Captain-Cosmo yes, and all of them were believed to be the "one true god"
Using the bible as evidence is like using a Shakespeare play as evidence for what Romeo said to Juliet.
if someone would have burned shakespeare's books no one would even care or know about the guy today buddy.
Aww the Christian bloke stood up from comfy chair formula like he was at school debate and then he debated like he was an indoctrinated child. When are we going to stop doing this to our kids?
It was a course in Logic in university that cured me of religion.
In my case, the cure was beer.
Like beer, a form of resurrection.
I wish it was taught in elementary school.
@@Vlasko60 Greek and Latin and Logic were staples of eudcation a long time ago. My grandmother and my dad had to learn such things. People have been getting stoopidder and stoopidder ever since.
THERE WILL BE TWO RESURRECTIONS. ONE TO HEAVEN, AND ONE TO HELL. HEAVEN IS ONLY DESTINED FOR THEM THAT LOVE AND WORSHIP JESUS. GUESS WHERE YOU'RE GOING ??
When the speaker gets his evidence that jesus existed and rose from the dead, from the bible, there is no point in having to debate any further.
Christ may have lived 2000 years ago. One thing I can accept is the fact that if Jesus lived then he clearly died. The End! What in your lifetime has convinced you that someone can come back to life??? Why do otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people believe such nonsense??
Dan Barker mentioned Black Sabbath and The Rolling Stones in this debate lol 😂
Further proof that he is the Devil!!! 😈
The real question here is why do some people need to believe in this story? Billions do. I wish there was more in-depth understanding of why that need is so powerful. So essential to so many people.
Yes something to wrap your mind around....funny thing is the more u investigate the more you find its like a dog chasing its own tail
If you asked a Christian what the world be like without their god, how would they react?
Institutional inertia...we've always done it this way. Businesses get locked into this mindset so why not societies too?
Bottom line for religious belief: Fear of Death.
@@Vlasko60 fear of death and a promise of something unproven. A means to control the masses.
Did he actually say he actually believes a thousands year old Moses physically reappeared? I didn't know things could get worse.
Going from having faulty evidence to NO evidence is one hell of a leap.
THE TRANSFIGUARATION OF JESUS CHRIST IN MATTHEW 17, TALKING WITH MOSES AND ELIAS IS SO TRUE. THE BIBLICAL ASSURANCE AND YOUR REPROBATE MIND DOES NOT MIX WELL. ON YOUR KNEES FOR JESUS, SINNER !!
Some people Believe that millions or billions of years ego, land mammals would have made it back to the ocean and would have gone on an evolutionary journey while morphing into all kinds of sea mammals. Unicorn may have turned into narwhals in the process. Interesting that this type of farfetched fairytailish bS would be taught in classrooms as science
@Margie Smith It has been demonstrated that mutation always lead to a loss in genetic complexity. Atheist Dawkins pretends that we owe our eyeballs to light sensitive cells that would have migrated from the brain. We are talking miracles and atheism has no provision for miracles.
@Margie Smith The planet of the apes is a science fiction
If Christians want to believe in Jesus and God then let them. They dont do any harm by it. Oh no wait....millions have died because of their religious belief.
Christians fought and died. Millions we're not killed for the sake of killing. The majority of millions murdered were at the hands athiest dictators. Not even close.
The Muslim religion is the war religion. Christians missions spread the Good News and do good. Feed the poor. There are some wackos out there and prosperity ministers that do harm by lying and put money first. But the majority are faithful. You need to get out of the idea that God has limitations. The universe can't be without a cause. Can't form on it's own. There is design. DNA is the blueprint. RNA repeats it. Cant have one before the other. Designer.
@@darrelllyvere9029 Someone needs to do their history lessons
@@darrelllyvere9029 Explain to me the Inquisition and their forced conversions or they burnt you at the stake alive and ripped the stomach of pregnant woman open, killing their babies. What about the guillotine? Shall I continue?
@@darrelllyvere9029the new world Christian belifs have led to bad
There is only one source of information about Jesus -- the bible It was passed orally for generations before being written in four conflicting variants. All the authors were anonymous. None of them were eye-witnesses. Paul made all his stuff up without ever meeting Jesus.
Actually, there are a number of extra-biblical sources...even non-Christian ancient historians who all wrote about Jesus. Would you like a list?
Hello, James Gossweiler. I wrote about Jesus too. Do you believe that? But as soon as you start asking me to produce incontrovertible proof of his existence, I will resort to providing you with all kinds of excuses and unsubstantiated claims just as Christian apologists like to do. However, I am completely confident you will accept my unverifiable nonsense as robust evidence for Jesus.😁😁😁
@@jamesgossweiler1349 yeshuas.. of which there were many. Some of which even claimed to do similiar 'miracles' lmao
@@jamesgossweiler1349 No, because they're all too late after the alleged facts.
@@jamesgossweiler1349 Yes please!
"Empty tomb." "Yes?" "Empty tomb." "What about it?" "Empty tomb." "Yes I know you claim there was a tomb and you claim it was empty and you claim God killed himself on a cross and he then rose from the tomb and went home to Heaven" "Empty tomb." "I'm sick of you claiming that this point means anything.😤" "The tomb...it was empty."
lol yep
Tomb? How the hell would a penniless preacher end up in an expensive stone tomb? He would have been in the mass grave with hundreds of others
@@SNORKYMEDIA Crucifixion was the punishment for treason. The Romans weren't in the habit of releasing the bodies of traitors, or even allowing the creation of a death mask, in case such objects became a focus of veneration and further rebellion.
In small groups, members lie for status by pretending to have experienced supernatural phenomena.
Demons.
Do they exist?
I have a 3d photograph of supernatural phenomena, but you may not like it
ruclips.net/video/C8pqhEKcw8Y/видео.html
@@omotola81 if they do one of them is the god of the bible.
Just because you have not had any such experiences, does not mean that others have not, does it ?
In fact, according to surveys, a large proportion of people have had unusual spiritual experiences, myself included.
And I was an atheist at the time.
It is impossible to PROVE the existence of God, by scientific means, as God can only be a direct personal experience.
@@kimbirch1202 I agree with what you said, but I come to a different conclusion, I.e., a personal experience cannot demonstrate the reality of a claimed supernatural event.
"Facts" 1 to 4 (and the empty tomb nonsense): you can't use stories from the book that's accused of being a fairytale as proof that it's not a fairytale.
THERE WILL BE TWO RESURRECTIONS. ONE TO HEAVEN, AND ONE TO HELL. HEAVEN IS ONLY DESTINED FOR THEM THAT LOVE AND WORSHIP JESUS. GUESS WHERE YOU'RE GOING ??
@@johnstewart4350 Well at least I will be with a good crowd then and not a bunch of slaves.
'God can kiII whoever he chooses.' - a christian
'We get our morals from God.' - also a christian.
... Awkward!!!
There is no use debating a religious person
There is nothing to gain because they do not use logic and no matter what evidence against them they will never change there mind
That is so true. 👍🏴
The pro-Jesus argument is a stunning crock of bull. Appalling
If you believe anyone can come back from the dead, you're a magical thinker.
THERE WILL BE TWO RESURRECTIONS. ONE TO HEAVEN, AND ONE TO HELL. HEAVEN IS ONLY DESTINED FOR THEM THAT LOVE AND WORSHIP JESUS. GUESS WHERE YOU'RE GOING ??
Unicorns may have gotten extinct when they took to the ocean on their way to morph into narwals. They got to enjoy swimming that much, they never made it back to the land. The science fiction tale born out of Darwin hallucinations on the Galapagos will feed the imagination of quack scientists for generations to come. Although atheism has no provision for miracles, atheist darwinist Dawkins is claiming that apes magically mutated up into men, and that land mammals returned to the ocean in order to morph into all kind of sea mammals although none of non-sense could be observed in reality.
@@johnstewart4350 The same place you are going, into the ground or into ash. There is no credible evidence for any god, Heaven, or Hell. Just magical belief based on fear of death.
@@piertinence Science has mountains of credible evidence, what have you got, besides a magical brain?
@@Vlasko60 Darwinist evangelist Dawkins is seen as a genius but he himself is regarding his atheist brain as too badly faulty to be the creation of an intelligent entity.
Why does the Christian think that he has five FACTS regarding the resurection of Jesus? How can they possibly be facts when all he is going by is what is written down in a very old book? They are no more facts than if I was to state that Hobbits are real because I just read Lord of the Rings!!!
Didn't see your comment until after I had already typed mine. We are definitely on the same wavelength.
Just in response to the opening points:
The gospels don't count as historical evidence.
Those historians were stating what Christians believe, not what happened.
Even if we took the point that the disciples died for their beliefs that doesn't prove anything, just as other people dying for other beliefs don't prove those beliefs.
A religion based on human sacrifice. Only humans could make up such a story.
I know only basic (very basic) concept of 5 major belief systems.
But you know all religions.
Congratulation, buddy.
@@allahjr.8522 All Religions have the same base: Manmade god or gods. Thats enough to mock them.
I love how the Christian discusses his so called "facts" from a book written long ago by who knows who. The Flavian family or various unscientific peasants years later. Just because something is written in a book, it doesn't make it a fact buddy boy.
Delon Duvenage Because people take this joke of a religion seriously. That’s why. 💯
Delon Duvenage Yeah, but the difference is there is testable evidence that supports the claims of evolution. There is no such testable evidence for the Bible. In fact, we find contradictory evidence for things like a world-wide flood.
Delon Duvenage watched it. Still no god.
@@Ryan-jx4vh What evidence is there of evolution? Evolution is a good guess but there's no evidence. Also, what contradictory things?
@@donny5429 The fossil record is direct evidence for evolution. You believe in science, wherein you would convict a criminal with DNA evidence, but then reject the science of the fossil record that shows evolution? BTW, I grew up in the church. Once I saw the evidence, I no longer needed to "believe".
The Roman god Mithra (who was worshipped in Persia at least as far back as 200 BCE) was born of a virgin on December 25th, his birth witnessed by shepherds and the Magi who carried gifts for him, performed great deeds and miracles including healing the sick, had 12 disciples (one for each sign of the Zodiac), died, was laid in a tomb, after which he ascended to heaven in his divine form, this resurrection being celebrated by the cult of Mithras every Spring Equinox. Not only is the myth of "Jesus" one of many "dying as a mortal as rising" stories of gods (many of whom are the offspring of a supreme or creator god) - it's a blatant ripoff. The primitive Hebrews with their tribal wargod Yahweh were not even very smart. They stole stories from surrounding cultures including Babylon, Persia, Egypt and so one and then rewrote them. The plagiarism is so blatant if it was a highschool essay the teacher would give it an F and mark it "obviously copied from elsewhere"
richard&,be careful what you put out; Mithra was not a Roman god; Romans had a pantheon where gods of conquered people had their altars, The devil hides in the details; it doesn`t serve the truth well to mix real and unreal information; the books of OT and NT are a prime example of mixing shit ,with which we still have to deal today,May the light of truth be with you.
@@frankiewally1891 Mithras was worhsipped in Rome, Mithraism was a mystery religion and common in the Roman Army. Many Roman gods were borrowed, the most obvious examples being Jupiter - aka Zeus.
@@richardgregory3684 I know who Mithra was;but your statement "Mithra was a Roman god" is erroneous .I told you how the religion in Roman empire worked....better yet,get yourself a good dictionary of mythology and ancient religions;it shall clarify the issue fro you.
source?
That young guy is comical in his credulity. Id cringe if i were his mom
This theist debater has to be the best I have ever heard. He is respectful, cogent, organized and clear. It still mystifies me how much faith he exercises in the service of inane illusions right after he alludes to "historical" "evidence." The human mind is so weird.
The weirdness of The human mins has no escape plan. The solution to ignorance is education, but there is no cure for stupidity
I can only agree with you on this one. This guy is really intelligent. This only proves how powerful indoctrination is
@@ntsokolomemani3874 Keeping this short, my uncle is INCREDIBLY intelligent, thoughtful, logical.. He's ex-special forces and is undoubtedly one of the most rational men I've ever met. No emotional, a pure processing machine- retired calculated killer. He even talks about how his first kill was on 20-sum Al-Quada affiliates he had sanctioned a strike on due to the #3 leader being present; even killed a young child as collateral damage. Yet, despite all of this, he's a devote Mormon. As is his wife and their 7 children. They whole heartedly believe in the next life, based on their good works and strong faith in this life, will take God's ("The Father") role in their own universe to seed with life, where their two sons will take the role of a Savior (Jesus) and an adversary (Satan). Yes, they believe one will be Satan, and they will send him to Hell in the name of Holiness after their other son defeats him as believed will occur in this world. Sorry it wasn't so short but point is, even intelligent people are victim to the desire to feel validated for their actions, and feel clean of their shame. Sometimes I wonder if deep down he knows the truth, but, he gives his church $1,000/month so I hardly doubt it... :/
@@swayzy762 It is examples like this and many others that cross my mind when someone comes on elaborating on how strongly they believe and how sure they are that they're right and that their...and my eternal salvation depends on ME believing what they believe. Bottom line...as far as I'm concerned...no one knows about a god if there is one. I may be as well off not believing anything as to have 'whored after a false god.' Who knows...if I'm praying to/worshiping/giving to the wrong god, the real God is getting madder and madder all the time.
@@rizdekd3912 Yep, pretty much.
The case for Jesus would be slightly better if ANY of the Gospels started out with something like, "I spoke with Jesus before he travelled to Jerusalem to be crucified, and this is what he told me." The Gospels we have say nothing to that effect. They are theological statements intended to establish and strengthen the early church. They are not history.
Mathew, for example, never says, "I was there when Jesus said, 'Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.' " The Gospel of Matthew doesn't claim to be a witness to that. It doesn't even claim to be written by Matthew the Disciple.
Ever notice how Paul NEVER refers to the Twelve Apostles as "Disciples of Jesus"? He never uses the word "disciples" at all. Did he even believe an historical Jesus had chosen twelve disciples? He apparently did not. He refers to the various groups in Jerusalem as apostles only.
An apostle and a disciple are not the same thing. An apostle is just someone who is spreading the word. A disciple is someone who is handpicked by the master to be his follower. Anyone can be an apostle. If Paul thought that The Twelve were handpicked by Jesus, he would not have disputed with them and showed them so little respect. There would not have been the Pauline rejoinder: "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars ...".
Paul clearly did not acknowledge the authority any of those three. If they had been disciples handpicked by Jesus himself would he have referred to them in such a derogatory term as "those REPUTED to be pillars"? Would he have gainsaid the Son of God himself. I think not. Paul's attitude was, these are people who call themselves apostles. Ok, fine ... they can call themselves what they will. But they are nothing to me. Jesus did not appoint them to have any authority over me.
No historical Jesus appointed any of the people in Jerusalem at the time of Paul to be anything. They appointed themselves.
Ah yes, the picture of Jesus as a 6’2” Anglo-Saxon. So authentic.
God owes man nothing save damnation. What He chooses to give, outside of damnation, is all of grace. Which means in turn that He treats His elect one way, and the reprobate another. All to the everlasting praise of His glory.
@@johnstewart4350 And who wants to pray to that.
@@johnstewart4350 and he picks and chooses those he will save which are quite few (the very elect). To some he gives repentance, and then faith. The rest, he consigns to the infernal place: "Many shall SEEK to enter into the Kingdom of God, and shall not be able." Familiar??? In Romans chapter 9 Paul talks about predestination in the form of vessels made for glory/noble purposes and vessels for destruction/shameful purposes. And he expounds on God (note well, not Pharoah) hardening Pharaoh's heart. You know how Pharoah ends. Anyway, Augustine expounds on Paul's teaching on the subject and Calvin expounds on Augustine's. It does not seem just or loving to me.
Epictetus on God:
If God is willing but unable, why call him God?
If God is able but unwilling, why call him good?
If God is both able and willing, whence comes evil?
@@johnstewart4350 There is no reason or evidence to believe your claims.
Kindergarten is over.
Think for yourself.
@@johnstewart4350 I saw Jesus at Taco Bell
Its worrying that in the 21st century there are still people in the developed world who still believe 2000yr old stories of people rising from the dead or that the universe was created by a magic man in the sky.
Magic is just a fancy name for Higher Technology, U know?
I have a so-called magical 3d photograph of Jesus's crucifixion and resurection, care to see it?
ruclips.net/video/C8pqhEKcw8Y/видео.html
The Number of New Testament Manuscripts Compared with Other Ancient Books
In terms of quantity, the New Testament is represented far more than any other piece of ancient literature. Consider the known manuscripts of four well known Greek and Roman works: Homer was the earliest and most popular author of the ancient Greek world. His book, The Illiad, dates to 750 BC. To date, 647 manuscripts of this book have been found. Only 190 contain a complete copy. When compared to other classical Greek writing, Homer’s work is an exception. Copies of his work are much more plentiful than other ancient books. For example, Caesar’s Gallic War, dates to 50 BC. Only 9-10 manuscripts exist with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. Thucydides’ Peloponnesian Wardates to 450 BC. Eight manuscripts have been found with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. (There are some fragments of this book that date to the time of Jesus.) Finally, Tacitus’ Histories was written in 100 AD. Only two manuscripts are available. One dates to 800 AD, the other to 1000 AD.
In light of this, the number of ancient writings containing the New Testament is staggering. To date, over 5800 Greek New Testament fragments have been found (Taylor, 2012). Over 10,000 Latin New Testament manuscripts dating from the 2nd to 16th century have been located. The earliest are in fragments that cover a substantial amount of the New Testament. Some manuscripts have also been found in a number of other languages, including Coptic, Syriac, Gothic, and Arabic. Taking all languages together, over 25,000 handwritten copies of the New Testament have been recovered. But there is more. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced by quotes from the ancient church fathers. “So extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament” (Metzger & Ehrman, 2005).
The number of manuscripts being found is continually growing. “Every decade and virtually every year new manuscripts are discovered. Meanwhile, the average classical author’s writings are found in about twenty extant manuscripts” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006). The earliest manuscripts do not contain the entire New Testament. Some fragments contain just a verse or two, but still count as a manuscript. The average size of a New Testament manuscript is around 450 pages.
@@bretzajac7986 ........ Yes, remarkable. But I suggest one must consider an Anthropological approach, and realize that every group of humans, from the earliest beginnings, has created a deity and a belief system unique to their group. See Marjorie Leach's 880 page book "Guide to the Gods", 1992, ABC-CLIO. Humans know that we are born, we live, and that we die..... from nothing to something to nothing....... It's of no surprise to me that a belief system that promises an eternity in 'heaven', where we'll see our parents and other siblings again, where there is no pain nor suffering forever, would be accepted and yearned for by masses of uneducated people.
To me it is unreasonable and impossible to believe a 'god' could create anything so absurd as this world, regardless of how many writers and scholars may endorse this view. Would you create two sexes knowing that only 50% of marriages succeed, or that all living creatures must eat some other living creature just to survive? How does 'perfection' create such an imperfect world?
@@bretzajac7986 Just because some people in the past copied and translated one work in preference to another doesn't make the contents of that work true.
Congratulations. You've just created a variation on the 'argumentum ad populum' fallacy.
The point where the theist guy turns to special pleading - “the magical power of god resurrected Yeshua” as a point in his argument… you can hear his voice change, it softens and sounds desperate just like all theists do when talking with emotion about spiritually laced things.
Of course, this entire debate presupposes the existence of Jesus in the first place and there is no good evidence of THAT.
This is shocking. How is it possible for someone to believe in all of these absolutely ridiculous biblical claims? You’ve REALLY got to be brainwashed to believe in this resurrection nonsense.
0:42 Something seems off with, "After years of post-grad research, I have concluded that God has revealed himself."
Enjoy Dan Barker!
“We suffer more often in imagination than in reality.” - Seneca
“There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.” ― Aldous Huxley
“Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth, because they don't want their illusions destroyed.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Christian God was so unclear. 2thousand years has passed and we are discusting what did he mean. We have to focus word by word. Wouldnt be god smarter? Would he really use a book as a message? Wouldnt he at least assure himself that we will have original? God could be smarter.
"God" is clearly not the "perfect" god he is espoused to be. He existed for an eternity before creating man. Why would a perfection suddenly decide he needs something to worship him? Almost immediately after creating man, things went to crap. So he had to destroy everything with a flood and start over. And almost immediately after that, things went to crap again. And all of this, mind you, is part of his "divine plan". So incompetent is this god that, If he were real, I would halfway expect gravity to suddenly fail or protons to start randomly losing their charge. Most Christians came to their belief as children, and remains guided in adulthood with that same childish belief. A shame they don't give more credit to one of the most useful parts of their bible: "When I was a child, I spake as a child: I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." - 1 Corinthians 13:11
He said: "The christian stance provides the most plausible view of reality?" What? How so? The supernatural is NOT reality.
Scholars have had over 2000 yrs. to get their stories straight on Jesus. Jesus May have been crucified, and maybe he arose, although I doubt it. The true question is this: if god is real then why is he such a terrible god, and why would anybody with a sound mind want to worship someone so terrible. Innocents are starving and dying and he does nothing. If god is real he’s a jerk I don’ t want to know.
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
Thomas Jefferson
founding father, 3rd US President
What I never understood is the ‘three wise men’ story at the beginning. WHY if Jesus was indeed the son of god and these wise men from the east know about it and visited the birth scene, is there NO written description of that event in any of these civilizations?
Well, they wrote a song about it! That's pretty good.
@@MendTheWorld 😂👌👍👏👏👏
Sooo they going to use the Bible to prove what the Bible said… what a joke…
Does the Bible not hold contradictions within itself, do these contradictions muster up independent thought or curiosity? Is one’s religion that perfect there haven’t been discrepancies within itself? Or is there a huge possibility there are imperfections in the things we believe and sometimes we’re absentmindedly blind to them when they are being put to the test in front of us, it feels like a test of your faith rather then the truth so you disregard logic and use your emotional input to justify your means. My friend I can’t go as far as to saying what is and isn’t but what I can say is human rationality should always be at the forefront of your mind and not the questions of what if and what nots.
@@jaygothandleslogic disproves the Bible blind faith keeps the machine working
Just imagine how more momentous and more believable resurrection would have been if resurrected Jesus had shown himself also to the 'enemies'... and not only to his followers and believers.
He only reveals himself to those the father gave him…does anybody hear actually study the Bible? Sounds like a disgruntled group who believe than can be free of any moral obligation. Evil blaming good for evil…sounds like global elite mentality. No wonder this world is screwed up!
@@strikethenine8755 Sounds like you believe some silly things for some silly reasons.
Or, even better, if he was still walking around on the Earth today.
@@bryanjackson8917 "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe". There's your answer to that issue
@@JosiahFickinger You use the word "blessed", but I say better words to use in this context would be "stupid", "delusional", and/or "insane".
Do religious apologists ever listen to the counter arguments? They just seem to come back the same things over and over again as if nothing was ever said against them..
May I say that Barker is awesome?
weizenobst musli...........You may and I agree!
agree
💯
He is blinded by Satan as you all are I pray you all will turn to Jesus Christ for salvation before you leave this world
Someone correct me here please if I’m wrong. I seem to remember the Bible saying Jesus looked differently after the resurrection but they we’re convinced it was Christ when they were shown the scars on the hands of the individual. Doesn’t this seem a little convenient?
Faith and belief are a poor way to find what is actually true.
Not poor, useless. There is no way faith and belief are a way to demonstrable facts (unless it's random chance).
The Christian dude calls the atheist dude a liar and a coward? And claims that "Peter" is more believable?
Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, and Joseph Smith all claimed to be talking to angels or an invisible god
which I suspect was their own internal dialogue.
@@JamesRichardWileyyes intrusive thoughs led to realgion
And we have a major problem with most of the Bible, namely extraordinary events and people.
Who actually believes Sampson lost his strength when his hair was cut ?
And who believes Jonah was in the belly of a whale for three days and three nights ?
😊😊
Might as well debate "Who Would Win a Fight Between Batman and Spiderman?" Just as real as Jesus.
Atheist is wrong about Jesus the Messiah? Is this the proof? ruclips.net/video/KBycQZug8Fo/видео.html
@John Doe bull batman is way better than Jesus. It's not even close Batman is one of the best made up saviors man has ever invented no matter how much older the Jesus story is
@@winstonsmiththx1138 How many people do you know went out to preach Batman in spite of the threat of persecution?
Did Batman change the entire course of history like Jesus did?
I know people like to make the Jesus / Batman comparisons but I think they're doing it to convince themselves.
What year were you born? Whatever it was, remember that the calendar in which we all use testifies Jesus.
I haven't found a Batman equivalent .....
@@Peter-kl8jg none of that is relevant. 1 Jesus didn't change the world 2 the calendar was changed in the mid 500's to fall in line with the Jesus story, not the same as saying that the calendar was based on the myth now is it? You like the fake Jesus story I like the fake Batman story the difference is I realize my story is fake
Spiderman would win for he has superpowers and could tie batman up in a web from distance. Jesus is Lord, I have seen great signs from Heaven. I speak the Truth!
Skeptic: Why don’t you reveal yourself to the world?
God: I don’t feel like it.
Skeptic: Why do you allow evil to happen?
God: It is my divine will.
Skeptic: Why did you allow your son to be crucified?
God: Hmm . . . I don’t know.
Skeptic: Why don’t you heal amputees?
God: I don’t have an answer for that.
Skeptic: Why do you allow confusion among your believers?
God: Because I don’t care; it’s their problem.
Skeptic: Is it true you were created in the minds of ignorant, delusional human beings?
God: YES!!!
Haha! Its just another envy, jealous and petty deity, created by men...:)
God works in mysterious ways
@@darkblueman The brain of a delusional human being also works in mysterious ways.🙂
@@SuperVideoman71 Very true. Thank God for rational scepticism, lol
@@darkblueman Exactly. By the way, who or what is a “god?”🙂
It is incredible how humans can believe in all these crazy stories. Just unbelievable!!
You go think unbelievable when you die if you don't believe in Jesus Christ
@@chesterswortham5197
You will not be disappointed on the day of your death... do you know why not?
@@chesterswortham5197 oooooooooohhhh a threat of a magic place a fictional person is going to send you to. A place no-one has ever been to....
THERE WILL BE TWO RESURRECTIONS. ONE TO HEAVEN, AND ONE TO HELL. HEAVEN IS ONLY DESTINED FOR THEM THAT LOVE AND WORSHIP JESUS. GUESS WHERE YOU'RE GOING ??
@@johnstewart4350
For me, Jesus was a Jewish itinerant preacher who preached good moral and ethical principles...nothing more!
Whether he survived his crucifixion, or whether he died and his followers spread the legend of his resurrection to give his ideas more weight, is not relevant to me.
The tomb of Jesus has to be the most sacred place in Christianity. How is it then that the site was abandoned long enough for people to forget where it was? Why wasn't it ever rediscovered? How many caves are around the area where was said to be crucified? Why haven't Christians been worshipping there since the first Easter Sunday.
Damn, that guy can talk talk talk without ever saying something.
That takes practice.
To save you a little time, Mike uses references from the bible to prove his case (circular reasoning) and most scholars believe it to be true (most of whom are employed by christian institutions )
I agree. Dan does not seem to pick up on this.
@@blackagendermuslim7198 i hope you are not lying. That would be a sin.
Yes. Right near the start he calls the references "facts". That's a *fail* right there. It doesn't really get any better either. Dan hardly had to get out of first gear.
Thanks before I almost heard all of the shits
But how can Christianity be mythicism? "Because it's made up." Aron Ra
How big was the stone that rolled? I want to know. How big was the entrance to the tomb? Think about it.
31:30 "If God exists, there is no reason why He could not raise someone from the dead, if He wanted to." This statement presumes that God exists, which there is no evidence for. So, how can it be used as an argument that Jesus was raised from the dead?
Cognitive dissonance
He's christian. It's all they got.
Special pleading vs Dan Barker
Mike Licona keeps asking Dan how he can account for an empty tomb, and can he explain all the eye witness sightings of Jesus blah blah etc. Nobody has explain, or account for anything about the stories in the bible, because it's a book of stories. The bible makes claims, and he needs to provide evidence to back up those claims, but Mike thinks that the bible is the evidence.
our theist debater says a lot of stuff about the resurrection, thats he WANTS to be true and therefore he creates a story around the stuff which COULD be true (but does not have to be). and because it could be true, the probability of it being true is raised beyond oblivion.........for him.
Thank you for this video.
Why can't Jesus appear right now on stage in front of everyone at every religious/atheist debate?
He hasn't appeared at a single debate because he doesn't exist and he never did!
I would disagree, my friend. I've seen Him with my own eyes.
C Vasquez what was he wearing?
@@cvasquez3376Did he look like a Palestinian or a Scandinavian Viking with long blond hair, blue eyes, white skin and a six pack like in the European churches? Pls tell me.
"In every man sleeps a prophet, and when it wakes there is a little more evil in the world." - Emile M. Cioran
You do know that all of the gospels have been outed as forgeries? That Paul and Jesus are fictional characters? That the Jesus myth was borrowed from older earlier religious beliefs?
God, the most powerful force in the universe and his biggest concern is whether you believe in him or not.🤣
Damn, the Christian quotes Luddeman, who denies the resurrection, to prove the resurrection.
Mentioning all these people who agree with Licona is the logical fallacy of appeal to authority--therefore, useless.
It is amazing how many atheists are former (often highly educated) Christians - or NOT so amazing!
@CoolGamer Jr Sorry, I don’t understand your comment. Does not seem to make sense. Explain?
@@Beegee1952 so how’s Barry doin these days ?
I'm starting a cult. There's a lot of money in that BS.
Trust me, that’s how the Charismatic Movement started around the 40s
Generally speaking, I like Mike Licona and appreciate his knowledge, style, and long term friendship with rival Bart Ehrman. That said, I don’t find his arguments to be particularly more compelling than those of his peers, just presented more dispassionately and with a better attitude regarding respect.
I ask you: What could be stupider, than believing you have an invisible friend in the sky? One who fails often, and then gets angry, and sends a flood to drowned everybody?
........Not believing it ...!!
Had Jesus lived, he simply would have been a Jewish Rabbi. He most certainly would have been horrified at his picture hanging in a Catholic or a Protestant church.
And had his mother Mary been real, she would have been horrified to have been labeled as a Catholic saint.
You'll spot the lies, but only when you are ready and "willing." Been there ... did that.
THERE WILL BE TWO RESURRECTIONS. ONE TO HEAVEN, AND ONE TO HELL. HEAVEN IS ONLY DESTINED FOR THEM THAT LOVE AND WORSHIP JESUS. GUESS WHERE YOU'RE GOING ??
@@johnstewart4350 Had Jesus lived, he would have supported his father's will to reject most souls to eternal suffering. Do you still think that he would have been a nice guy? And do you still want to dream about being in paradise with "him?"
Any man that preaches that he was sent to earth by a god to save all humanity from sin, ought not to be idolized ... ... not worshiped ... not believed. ... but rather empathized with, as being needy of attention, and very childlike concerning his behavior.
@@johnstewart4350 What do you make of this pertinent question?
From the book … The Arrogance of Faith, by Forrest G. Wood ... “Besides, if Christianity is for everyone, why was it not from the beginning revealed to everyone?”
According to Paul (1Cor 15), the resurrection of the Christ was merely the first of many yet to come. Certainly, the verifying of any number of subsequent such resurrections should serve as confirmation of the first. Two millennia have passed and still not even so much as a second.
Mike's arguments are based on words like they were backed with video..I got the feeling he lost some believers to Dan after Dan talked. Evidence based on words by witnesses returning to the scene of the crime years later...
This is tiring.. a whole range of old Greeks tell of gods having sons and daughter with human women.. do we believe this nonsense.. I’m so tired of god playing hide and seek with his presence.. nearly every atrocity and fact of the universe does attest to there being no god..
What’s up whit his pants? Is Jesus there? Lol
Atheist is wrong about Jesus the Messiah? Is this the proof? ruclips.net/video/KBycQZug8Fo/видео.html
@@blackagendermuslim7198 the Shroud of Turin? Really? Is that the best you can come up with?
@@oldmandan4244 Can you do better? the first and only 3d holographic photo on linen cloth in history, what are the odds? you do understand that scientists cant reproduce the process that made this happen?
He's having a resurrection.
Black Agender Muslim lol come the fuck on...
If Jesus's resurrection had evidence, there wouldn't be debates because we will all know.
This consider: The basis of Christianity: The New Testament consists of twenty seven books which were ‘probably’ written by the named author, eight books which were anonymous and later falsely accredited to an author, but do not claim to be by that author! That leaves eleven books which are forged (not written by the person claiming to have written them) six of Paul’s letters, the Book of Acts, first and second Peter, James and Jude!
All the New Testament gospels were written anonymously in Koine Greek, and they remained anonymous until later in the second century when the Church Fathers decided who, in their opinions, probably wrote each of the gospels. This means we do not know who really wrote any of the gospels. Nearly all modern New Testament scholars agree that none of the gospel writers was an eyewitness to the events portrayed. The gospel that came to be attributed to the disciple Matthew was largely based on Mark’s Gospel, proving that the author was not an eyewitness since an eyewitness would not get his information about the mission of Jesus from another writer. So it is with John’s Gospel, which was loosely based on Mark and Luke. Furthermore, Mark was not written until around 70 CE and the other gospels were written decades later.
We do not know who really wrote any of the gospels, but we can be quite sure NONE of the authors actually met Jesus.
BECAUSE SOMEONE SAID SO IS NOT EVIDENCE. Lol my goodness.
That's right it isn't evidence
Yes, only hearsay.
I swear this guys whole argument is people said it and they believed it so therefore it's true. It was a weak argument to begin with and all hes done is show how ridiculous it is and he doesn't even realize.
about 100 - 107 billion people have lived on the earth and I don't know of any person that reached the stage of rigor mortis have ever resurrected . So the odds are abysmal that Jesus ever came back to life , if there was even such a person.
In Islam, Jesus did not really die at all.
But, he was the son of the Jewish god. However, the Torah is so scientifically illiterate and has been historically debunked that his father is clearly mythical, nonsense. No god the father there cannot be a god son.
Pray to a rabbits foot you will get the same results
There is evidence for the resurrection of Jesus? Through almost 60 years as a believer I knew there was no actual evidence of the resurrection and accepting that as truth was strictly a faith based proposition. After learning about several other deities who were supposed to have been resurrected I could not believe in the fairytale anymore.
Matthew 27:62-65 says that the tomb was unguarded for at least the whole night. Anybody could have stolen the body for any reason. I really don't know what the big mystery about the missing body.
Who wrote Matthew? The only thing we are certain of is that it wasn't Matthew