I was a young girl in third or fourth grade when the great Madeline Murray O'Hare won her court case and made the school stop making me pray to their god who didn't even want me to go to school. It was such a profound event in my life that I remember the day and even the clothes I had on that day! The school I was going to never announced anything about it. I just remember seeing it on the news, because my parents always watched the news and I watched it with them. Just one morning I went to school and we said the pledge of allegiance, but not the lord's prayer anymore and never had to say it again. Many people hated Ms. O'Hare, but to me she is one of my favorite people in history next to Harriet Tubman. Imagine being made to pray to a god who you know hates you, but you are told to look to that god for comfort and deliverance. I imagine my ancestors felt the same way only more profound through their abuse and suffering.🙄😑
My motto: Distrust any religion brand (particularly any Christian religion brand in the United States) that says they want to set the country straight. If they start mentioning erosion of morals, watch them extremely carefully.
@@NSOcarth sure, I accept that some of the founding fathers thought this way. They give no evidence for it, they can't support it, all they can cite is what they believe. They were wrong about what they believed. Why do I think they were wrong? Because they don't have good reasons to believe what they believe is true. I try very hard to believe as many true things as I can and as few false things as I can (that's not my original thought, but it's a good basis for belief). And the more extraordinary or consequential a belief might be if it were true or false, the more important it is to find out as much as you can about whether it's true or not. Belief in a god that is all knowing and all-powerful and all good is logically incoherent, and unsupported by evidence. Bleeding things without evidence makes you open to believing what else some personalities in your life might believe without evidence. That's dangerous.
I was raised as a Fundamentalist Christian in the S. Baptist branch of religion in the South - an influence I now reject as an adult - and I found that the “literal” translation of the Bible can lead to bizarre “rabbit holes” the fearful naive faithful can follow dependent upon if their pastors have a White Nationalist bent. The more literal and simplistic religious beliefs are the more rigid acceptable parameters of behaviors in society become: other competing religious or even non religious thinking is inevitably a threat to this basic ideology of white superiority and Christian ideology combined. The truly fearful fact is that the attack on democracy in America strongly linked with White Christian Nationalism has become a Trump sponsored effort of fascism using both religion and politics as a double edged sword of unifying the American populace against democracy. In truth the use of Christian Nationalism is only a means to an end by Trump and the GOP to gain outright political dominance and, at that point, religion will fade from the goal unless religion becomes fully nationalized. The ultimate goal is elitist control of the populace and although there are elites in both U.S. political parties the GOP elite capitalist/ corporate want dominance because they cannot attain numerical political dominance as a minority and can only attain control without extreme political manipulation.
It's not Trump who wants this, it's nearly half(with even 15% more on fence waiting to jump in to this fascism) of the American people. Trump is just giving them what they want And now the Asians and Latinos sees a great opportunity in this insanity to become republican toboth gain and exploit this ignorance.
You sound like many southern white girls who, experiencing perplexing relations with their father, turned against everything their fathers held dear. I'll admit that my knowledge of Southern Baptists is limited to the attacks on them for their role in perpetuating southern attitudes on various issues but your violent verbal attack on Christianity and on the GOP is really taking it far beyond any reality and is simply nauseating. Without any substantiation, without any careful historical analysis you attack conservative Christians as fascists, warriors against democracy and the force that will realize the overthrow of our country by dictator Trump who will rule in the name of some powerful capitalist plutocrats which you call elites. A more nutty concoction of conspiracy phantasies is hard to come by. You make yourself superior to the millions of Southern Baptists, conservatives, Republicans who go to church every Sunday and though they never heard anything of the kind that you ascribe to them, according to you they are being unwittingly organized to serve as the army by which Trump will achieve the installation not of the city of God but of a white racist slave empire. Lord, how nutty can you get, dear lady?!!! Do you realize that on January 6 the protesters could have taken over the government had that been in their plans yet they left the Capitol after 3 hours with hardly any damage to the building (contrary to corporate media reports) and with the certification of the Electoral College able to proceed. This really was the greatest danger to America and not the 2020 extremely destructive George Floyd insurrection against America that yielded some 40 deaths, thousands of small and middle businesses destroyed, hundreds of cops injured and several killed? Where is your sense of comparative proportion? Hopefully you're discussing the influence of your hatred for your father on your thinking with your psychiatrist.
if you really want to make southern baptists flip out, start speaking in tongues in one of their services. They are not all that fundamentalist, not nearly enough
"That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some, and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for such a business." -- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 24, 1774 “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.” -- James Madison
@think-about-it-777. Actually, that’s virtually impossible. For an idea to stick around for 2,000 years it pretty much has to have some utility to it. An idea born yesterday, not so much.
The final thought was that an American value we supposedly got from Chritianity was the idea of equality - that we were all created equally. I find that to be patently false, especially considering that at the time those words were written, we had millions of enslaved Africans, an ongoing genocide against native populations, women were property, and even poor white men were denied the right to vote. This is the nation our white nationalists want to return to. Don't give "Christian values" any good credit. They have caused nothing but harm.
What does Christian Nationalism have to do with Democracy?.....nothing.....I am a full supporter of freedom of religion (all religions). Christian Nationalism is not about freedom of religion but about privilege.
@@NSOcarth The founding fathers were Deist not Christian. The original idea for which that struggle was made was for the Deist god not the Christian god.
@5353Jumper. Actually, that’s the only way it has ever been achieved. For freedom of religion to thrive, you need an actual religious entity-and one dedicated to tolerance-to be “in charge.” Right now, secular progressivism has hegemony, and it is anything but tolerant (which is one of the reasons we have seen the rise of Christian Nationalism: secularism no longer even attempts to be neutral). The only places we have seen a robust freedom of religion has been in Judeo-Christian democracies.
@@NSOcarth The Treaty if Tripoli states that the U.S. was not a "Christian" nation. Signed by Adams. "Building A Well Between Church and State" by Jefferson. The Virginia State of Religious Freedom by Jefferson & Madison. Adams &Jefferson disestablished the State- Church partnership in New York and Virginia. Jefferson also had the belief that the 2 most dangerous things to America. Was an uneducated public and the Catholics.
@@NSOcarth Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams: The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding. Calling Christianity a mythical generation, FABLE and Artificial scaffolding is NOT in any way supporting of it Just because one acknowledges that the civil liberties enjoyed owed its origin to Christianity is like saying one owes their bike riding skills to training wheels. It in NO WAY means that one should ALWAYS have training wheels attached.
The Founders are rolling in their graves at the thought of 6 extremist Catholics on the Supreme Court… "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet, that the one is not three, and the three not one.... But this constitutes the craft, the power, and profits of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion, and they would catch no more flies." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams (August 22, 1813), Works, Vol. IV, p. 205 "Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents. -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813 "The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding, and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from it’s indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and pre-eminence." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, July 5, 1814, Lester Cappon, ed, The Adams-Jefferson Letters (1959) p. 433
Read each commandment and you will see a concept that EITHER directly violates the Constitution OR was borrowed from the Magna Carta which was mostly borrowed from the Viking Danelaw.
@@NSOcarth @NSOcarth you are of course correct Yet Oklahoma is a entire different creature of hate and filth. I was born in Muskogee in 1949. We used to have a hatred of Native People. This has not changed. Oklahoma has Executed more Coloured and Natives people than any other state. Oklahoma is truly White Supremacist in every since of the word. Do a search an Oklahoma Mass Killing of Indians and Coloured people by Kangaroo Courts.
Great discussion. Maybe consider viewing these dynamics through the lens of settler colonialism. From an historical view, It’s an excellent perspective to help understand the overlaps with larger white society.
Many “Latino” Americans or Hispanics have European ancestry. Look it up! Mexico and Central/South America were Spanish/Portuguese colonies. The last time I checked, those countries were in Europe!
it seems Spain and Portugal are like "subcontinent" countries, politically speaking. their former empires get comparatively little attention/credit even though they wreaked as much havoc as any other world empires. none of the inhabitants of their former colonies are "caucasian." All over the americas, if your skin is white and you speak spanish or portuguese you are supposedly not of european descent. This is a practical truth you won't fail to learn and acknowledge when living in the US and probably Canada too. In the americas, white hispanics and "caucasians" are not of the same european cloth, so to speak
Yeah, but most (i.e., almost all) have “mixed” ancestry. They may nonetheless re: themselves as white-there are different systems of racial classification in different countries. Most likely, however, those from or with ancestry from Latin America who espouse this ideology hope that they will eventually be “let in the tent” (of whiteness). It’s unclear if they’ll be right. On the one hand, nationalists believe in power through numbers and the numbers don’t look good for ppl who view their political power through baseline demographics. On the other hand, there are a lot of barriers that these nationalists seem to have with viewing most of those from Latin America as fully fledged members. There are exceptions, but those exceptions are largely due to those individuals having passing phenotypical features and being fully “Americanized” in terms of their English and cultural sensibilities. Difficult to predict how things shake out on that front. However, besides the baptists and bootleggers phenomenon probably in play here, I’ll just mention another thing: there are some ppl who are just really odd. They hold views, engage in behaviors that make little sense from the outside. In the grand scheme of things, since there are over 333 million ppl in this country, and over 8 billion on the planet, little should surprise when it comes to the existence of individual oddities.
A quote from the year 1896: "The work of the Gospel is to make peace between men and God, and wherever a heart surrenders to God the spirit of *militarism and nationalism* must go." {November 26, 1896, PTUK 755.8}
@@NSOcarthNo. You’d do the Christ-like thing. You’d put yourself in front of the man who was been beaten, take the blows, trust in God, pray for the victim, and forgive the aggressors. That’s if Christianity is your thing, of course.
@@NSOcarth I don't think you understand that parable. It's about the right thing being done by a disreputable person (Samaritans were considered heretical by the original audience) after respectable men passed by. Imagine how I feel when I help strangers and sometimes get thanked for "being a good Christian"? I'm Wiccan, are my kind deeds not valid because of that? It's like if, in the parable, the robbed and injured man told his rescuer "Samaritans can kind? Amazing! I feel so grateful I might forgive your heresy. Maybe."
@@NSOcarth you still don't understand the parable, and because you somehow mistook my explanation for ignorance you feel incredibly smug about not understanding. I'll pray for you.
Gorski, at least, is clear-eyed about what kind of short/medium-term project this movement is engaged in. A lot of fluffery and evasion is written and spoken about it by those on the outside of it.
On Funding religious schools "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545 "No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever.” --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546 "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780 "The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." -- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800 "Our Constitution ... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose." -- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to New London Methodists, 1809 The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state. [James Madison, 1819, in Boston, Why The Religious Right is Wrong about the Separation of Church and State] James Madison Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history [attempts where religious bodies had already tried to encroach on the government]. -- James Madison, Detached Memoranda, 1820 “It is contrary to the principles of reason and justice that any should be compelled to contribute to the maintenance of a church with which their consciences will not permit them to join, and from which they can derive no benefit; for remedy whereof, and that equal liberty as well religious as civil, may be universally extended to all the good people of this commonwealth.” George Mason, Virginia Declaration of Rights, 1776 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS: "The divorce between church and state should be absolute. It ought to be so absolute that no Church property anywhere, in any state, or in the nation, should be exempt from equal taxation; for if you exempt the property of any church organization, to that extent you impose a tax upon the whole community." - James A Garfield, Congressional Record (1874), 2:5384 "Encourage free schools and resolve that not one dollar appropriated for their support shall be appropriated to the support of any sectarian schools. Resolve that neither the state nor nation, nor both combined, shall support institutions of learning other than those sufficient to afford every child growing up in the land of opportunity of a good common school education, unmixed with sectarian, pagan, or atheistical dogmas. Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church and the private school supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate." -- Ulysses S Grant, address to the Army of the Tennessee, Des Moines, Iowa, September 25, 1875 "In 1850, I believe, the church property in the United States, which paid no tax, amounted to $87 million. In 1900, without a check, it is safe to say, this property will reach a sum exceeding $3 billion. I would suggest the taxation of all property equally." -- Ulysses S Grant (R) "Next in importance to freedom and justice is popular education, without which neither justice nor freedom can be permanently maintained. Its interests are intrusted to the States and the voluntary action of the people. Whatever help the nation can justly afford should be generously given to aid the States in supporting common schools; but it would be unjust to our people and dangerous to our institutions to apply any portion of the revenues of the nation or of the States to the support of sectarian schools. The separation of Church and State in everything relating to taxation should be absolute." - James A Garfield, letter of acceptance of presidential nomination, July 12, 1880 "In my judgment, while it is the duty of Congress to respect to the uttermost the conscientious convictions and religious scruples of every citizen ... not any ecclesiastical organization can be safely permitted to usurp in the smallest degree the functions and powers of the national government." - James A Garfield, Inaugural Address, March 4, 1881 "Because we are unqualifiedly and without reservation against any system of denominational schools, maintained by the adherents of any creed with the help of state aid, therefore, we as strenuously insist that the public schools shall be free from sectarian influences, and above all, free from any attitude of hostility to the adherents of any particular creed." -- Theodore Roosevelt (R) "We all agree that neither the Government nor political parties ought to interfere with religious sects. It is equally true that religious sects ought not to interfere with the Government or with political parties. We believe that the cause of good government and the cause of religion suffer by all such interference." -- Rutherford B Hayes (R), Statement as Governor of Ohio, 1875
I was talking to someone Latino guy and he was saying within his family there were people that were Protestant Christians trying to break the family apart and break their family down
FOUNDING FATHERS VIEWS - CHURCH STATE SEPARATION: "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88) "Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88) "Experience witnesseth that eccelsiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assembly, June 20, 1785 "It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a Religious establishment, and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by a legal provision for its Clergy. The experience of Virginia conspicuously corroborates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State." -- James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh written "late in his life," in Robert L Maddox, Separation of Church and State: Guarantor of Religious Freedom (1787) "Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U S forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them, and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does this not involve the principle of a national establishment?" James Madison, "Essay on Monopolies" "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780 "[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason." -- Thomas Jefferson, to James Sullivan, 1797. ME 9:379 "Among the most inestimable of our blessings is that ... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." -- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to Baptist Address, 1807 "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82 "I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799 "Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries." -- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808) ME 16:320. "Our Constitution ... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose." -- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to New London Methodists, 1809 "Christianity neither is nor ever was a part of the Common Law. For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law ... This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first Christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it ... That system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter. "The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." -- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800
You missed my favorite: The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding. - Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams:
@@ChibiHoshiDragon Indeed! Here’s more correspondence between the two a decade earlier: "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet, that the one is not three, and the three not one.... But this constitutes the craft, the power, and profits of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion, and they would catch no more flies." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams (August 22, 1813), Works, Vol. IV, p. 205 "Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents. -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813 "The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding, and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from it’s indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and pre-eminence." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, July 5, 1814, Lester Cappon, ed, The Adams-Jefferson Letters (1959) p. 433
@@ChibiHoshiDragon A couple more from the Father of the Constitution: “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.” -- James Madison "That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some, and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for such a business." -- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 24, 1774
How do you promote Democracy in a Constitutional Republic without saying you're opposed to the concept of a Constitutional Republic in the first place?
I’m Hispanic, and my ancestors came to the Americas in the 15th and 16th Centuries from Spain and Portugal, mainly due to the Inquisition (they were Sephardic Jews forced to convert or flee.). My great grandfather was born in Texas in the late nineteenth century, and his family was born in what’s now Texas before the Battle of the Alamo. My birth certificate has both of my parents’ race listed as White. Why are my ancestors not considered European? I returned to Judaism over 25 years ago…en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Inquisition My surname is Carabajal, read the article for an enlightenment on the atrocities of the Catholic Church. Btw, I have never been a Catholic, as my father was agnostic and my mother was Church of God before converting to another Evangelical Church.
Its kind of difficult to explain this to my friends and family in the South. They think its an accusation against white christians who are patriotic. While rather there is an anti democratic, racist faction existing at the junction of white christianity and politics. The nationalism label is less descriptive here, except that they think the nation belongs to white people, “purchased with white blood”. Somehow that logic doesnt apply to Black, Asian and Native blood. You didnt mention this, but the right’s characterization of Democrats as Socialist succeeds in drawing in Latino Americans and Asian Americans who may have experienced socialist revolutions. Cubans are a perfect example of this. I doubt that the White Christian Nationalist core would accept Chinese or El Salvadorean Americans into their fold. But they are happy to take their votes, and exploit them for cover from accusations of racism.
Absolutely nothing. One Religion has no right to claim the USA or should have any of their belieenshrined in law. That's Iran and the other Religion ruled country's. We are free from your beliefs. You are not americans but pushing your beliefs. We are not a Christian country.
"I don't want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." -- Rev. Billy Graham, Parade, 1981 “Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know. I've tried to deal with them.” ~ Republican Barry Goldwater "I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in ‘A,' ‘B,' C' and ‘D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliets to me?. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.'” - The late Sen. Barry Goldwater (R-AZ), the 'Father of Modern Conservatism' and 1964 GOP presidential candidate, speaking to the US Senate, September, 1981.
I am half-way through the video, and am wondering if what the authors are doing inadvertently--and contrary to what they say are their intentions--is lumping people who agree with half--or less--of the statements they call (or "all") white Christian nationalist together with actual full-dress white Christian nationalists. (They say they are not but some commenters seem to think that is what they are saying and approve of it.) I still doubt that people who would agree with the whole white Christian nationalist agenda amount to more than a vocal minority. I know these people exist because I have gotten push back from them for my evidently too tolerant but nevertheless conservative views. I just don't think they represent any of the many conservatives I listen to or read. Rather, I see too many people smearing people as white Christian nationalists because they are white by an accident of birth, Christian because they were brought up in a church, and happen to have (an often non-exclusionary) patriotism.
I have mentally struggled with the Christian Nationalism awareness cause. I echo Napp's concern about the vagueness of the questions. A lot of people want to see Christian values promoted by the government and wanting religious imagery in the public square is hardly a fringe view. I do believe there are people who are using "Christian Nationalism" as a smear towards politically active conservative Christians in general. That said, I commend Gorski and Perry for making some effort to distinguish between white evangelicals and white Christian nationalists, and noting that it is more a spectrum than a solid classification. The Putin comparison also helps, as it reminds me of those xenophobic European politicians who talk of wanting to advance "Christian civilization" and view their nation as being ideally white Christian, but are not themselves personally religious. I also think of Norway mass shooter Anders Behring Breivik, whose manifesto spoke a lot of Christianity, but viewed it more as a cultural entity than a spiritual belief system. Breivik seems to fit the Christian Nationalism label very well, as he had nominal Christian symbolism, nationalist sentiment, over-idealizing of Europe's past, xenophobic beliefs, and a positive view of violence as a means to cure perceived social ills.
Christian nationalism is definitely not a fringe ideology in the US, though as you say it's a spectrum. Most people in the US are weak or moderate on the scale.
@@andrewortiz5797 No, sorry, I'd rather have John 14:13, be the defining qualification. Mahavira could love... and Gandhi, and Guru Nanak, plus Siddhartha. Thomas Jefferson too, and Voltaire, and secularists. But only purported Christians, could do 'these things, and greater than I... shall you do'. And I do not recall, Pope Paul III, Calvin, or Torquemada... ever being asked, to prove such. Before they too, could... make, policy...?
@@NSOcarth Well, the logic simply is - how do outsiders tell what a real Christian is, or an effective one, or a unified one? Not much else, yet, beyond that. The rest is perhaps laying claim to traits that are simply not unique to one creed. As for heritage - there's a lot I like (in the UK) and quite a lot, I don't. Or is perhaps admitted to be a team effort with other imported influences, cultures, shared learning, and interaction. And also, yes, the Bible has been made available. The mainstream prominent one, and also the 'Street Bible' (with it's numerous bowdlerisms, too, at that) People will then, react to it varyingly, I guess.
I'm with you on most of this. I've written multiple essays about 7 years ago on the topic. The one difference that I have is the racism. I don't I don't see that. Well, I do see racism today, but it's overwhelmingly coming from the black community. In fact when we look at national crime data we see that 90% of interracial crime, is black on white... I'm curious as to how much time either one of these authors has spent in Black neighborhoods. They should try that out for a little while and get a good taste of the incredible hatred and racism within the black communities.
I wouldn't call it racism. I'd call it living up to the low standards forced upon them by society. I too have lived for years the only white man married to a non white woman, in a 2 mile radius. I can honestly say that if it weren't for my Jamaican born neighbors, violence would have happened against me and my kids, by SOME American blacks. But through hard work and community service my neighbors came to befriend us. The violence I've seen was disproportionately white cop vs my black neighbors. I've had to intervene on several occasions.
We know that Christ is the Savior of the WORLD (1 John 4:14). And we are to have the mind of Christ (Philippians 2:5). Hence, we too know that our "kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). The Apostle Paul stated that "Our citizenship is in heaven", and those of faith "confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 11:13-16).
Paul was NOT an apostle. Paul preached opposing christ without calling him out. Paul convinced believers that he Paul knew christ, he didn't know him, and could speak for him. No. Paul doesn't speak FOR Jesus, he speaks against him, causing confusion among believers.
Never trust a politician to tell you how to pray or a preacher to tell you how to vote
I was a young girl in third or fourth grade when the great Madeline Murray O'Hare won her court case and made the school stop making me pray to their god who didn't even want me to go to school. It was such a profound event in my life that I remember the day and even the clothes I had on that day! The school I was going to never announced anything about it. I just remember seeing it on the news, because my parents always watched the news and I watched it with them. Just one morning I went to school and we said the pledge of allegiance, but not the lord's prayer anymore and never had to say it again. Many people hated Ms. O'Hare, but to me she is one of my favorite people in history next to Harriet Tubman. Imagine being made to pray to a god who you know hates you, but you are told to look to that god for comfort and deliverance. I imagine my ancestors felt the same way only more profound through their abuse and suffering.🙄😑
My motto: Distrust any religion brand (particularly any Christian religion brand in the United States) that says they want to set the country straight. If they start mentioning erosion of morals, watch them extremely carefully.
I urge you to embrace Hinduism. Lord Krishna loves everyone including you
@@kenny87ificationprove it then we'll talk and listen more ... Bye for now 👋
Youv got a brain not manny of us left.
@@NSOcarth sure, I accept that some of the founding fathers thought this way. They give no evidence for it, they can't support it, all they can cite is what they believe. They were wrong about what they believed. Why do I think they were wrong? Because they don't have good reasons to believe what they believe is true.
I try very hard to believe as many true things as I can and as few false things as I can (that's not my original thought, but it's a good basis for belief). And the more extraordinary or consequential a belief might be if it were true or false, the more important it is to find out as much as you can about whether it's true or not. Belief in a god that is all knowing and all-powerful and all good is logically incoherent, and unsupported by evidence. Bleeding things without evidence makes you open to believing what else some personalities in your life might believe without evidence. That's dangerous.
@@kenny87ification All religions are toxic.
I was raised as a Fundamentalist Christian in the S. Baptist branch of religion in the South - an influence I now reject as an adult - and I found that the “literal” translation of the Bible can lead to bizarre “rabbit holes” the fearful naive faithful can follow dependent upon if their pastors have a White Nationalist bent. The more literal and simplistic religious beliefs are the more rigid acceptable parameters of behaviors in society become: other competing religious or even non religious thinking is inevitably a threat to this basic ideology of white superiority and Christian ideology combined.
The truly fearful fact is that the attack on democracy in America strongly linked with White Christian Nationalism has become a Trump sponsored effort of fascism using both religion and politics as a double edged sword of unifying the American populace against democracy. In truth the use of Christian Nationalism is only a means to an end by Trump and the GOP to gain outright political dominance and, at that point, religion will fade from the goal unless religion becomes fully nationalized. The ultimate goal is elitist control of the populace and although there are elites in both U.S. political parties the GOP elite capitalist/ corporate want dominance because they cannot attain numerical political dominance as a minority and can only attain control without extreme political manipulation.
I urge you to embrace Hinduism. Lord Krishna loves everyone including you
It's not Trump who wants this, it's nearly half(with even 15% more on fence waiting to jump in to this fascism) of the American people.
Trump is just giving them what they want
And now the Asians and Latinos sees a great opportunity in this insanity to become republican toboth gain and exploit this ignorance.
You sound like many southern white girls who, experiencing perplexing relations with their father, turned against everything their fathers held dear. I'll admit that my knowledge of Southern Baptists is limited to the attacks on them for their role in perpetuating southern attitudes on various issues but your violent verbal attack on Christianity and on the GOP is really taking it far beyond any reality and is simply nauseating. Without any substantiation, without any careful historical analysis you attack conservative Christians as fascists, warriors against democracy and the force that will realize the overthrow of our country by dictator Trump who will rule in the name of some powerful capitalist plutocrats which you call elites. A more nutty concoction of conspiracy phantasies is hard to come by. You make yourself superior to the millions of Southern Baptists, conservatives, Republicans who go to church every Sunday and though they never heard anything of the kind that you ascribe to them, according to you they are being unwittingly organized to serve as the army by which Trump will achieve the installation not of the city of God but of a white racist slave empire. Lord, how nutty can you get, dear lady?!!! Do you realize that on January 6 the protesters could have taken over the government had that been in their plans yet they left the Capitol after 3 hours with hardly any damage to the building (contrary to corporate media reports) and with the certification of the Electoral College able to proceed. This really was the greatest danger to America and not the 2020 extremely destructive George Floyd insurrection against America that yielded some 40 deaths, thousands of small and middle businesses destroyed, hundreds of cops injured and several killed? Where is your sense of comparative proportion? Hopefully you're discussing the influence of your hatred for your father on your thinking with your psychiatrist.
if you really want to make southern baptists flip out, start speaking in tongues in one of their services. They are not all that fundamentalist, not nearly enough
Brilliant analysis
"That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some, and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for such a business."
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 24, 1774
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.”
-- James Madison
IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW OLD YOUR BAD IDEA IS, a 2000-year-old bad idea is just as bad as a bad idea someone came up with yesterday.
@think-about-it-777.
Actually, that’s virtually impossible. For an idea to stick around for 2,000 years it pretty much has to have some utility to it. An idea born yesterday, not so much.
The final thought was that an American value we supposedly got from Chritianity was the idea of equality - that we were all created equally. I find that to be patently false, especially considering that at the time those words were written, we had millions of enslaved Africans, an ongoing genocide against native populations, women were property, and even poor white men were denied the right to vote. This is the nation our white nationalists want to return to. Don't give "Christian values" any good credit. They have caused nothing but harm.
What does Christian Nationalism have to do with Democracy?.....nothing.....I am a full supporter of freedom of religion (all religions). Christian Nationalism is not about freedom of religion but about privilege.
Maybe a better term would be "freedom from religion."
Religious freedom will never be achieved by putting one particular denomination of one particular religion into power.
Its about the power of privilege...all cloaked up in lies about equality and freedom.
@@NSOcarth The founding fathers were Deist not Christian. The original idea for which that struggle was made was for the Deist god not the Christian god.
@5353Jumper.
Actually, that’s the only way it has ever been achieved. For freedom of religion to thrive, you need an actual religious entity-and one dedicated to tolerance-to be “in charge.” Right now, secular progressivism has hegemony, and it is anything but tolerant (which is one of the reasons we have seen the rise of Christian Nationalism: secularism no longer even attempts to be neutral).
The only places we have seen a robust freedom of religion has been in Judeo-Christian democracies.
The Founding Fathers were adament that the Uniyed States was not founded as a Christian nation
And said so vehemently.
I urge you to embrace Hinduism. Lord Krishna loves everyone including you
@@kenny87ification Except those Muslims that you fundamentalists Hindus are burning alive.
@@NSOcarth The Treaty if Tripoli states that the U.S. was not a "Christian" nation. Signed by Adams. "Building A Well Between Church and State" by Jefferson. The Virginia State of Religious Freedom by Jefferson & Madison. Adams &Jefferson disestablished the State- Church partnership in New York and Virginia. Jefferson also had the belief that the 2 most dangerous things to America. Was an uneducated public and the Catholics.
@@NSOcarth
Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams:
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding.
Calling Christianity a mythical generation, FABLE and Artificial scaffolding is NOT in any way supporting of it
Just because one acknowledges that the civil liberties enjoyed owed its origin to Christianity is like saying one owes their bike riding skills to training wheels. It in NO WAY means that one should ALWAYS have training wheels attached.
The Founders are rolling in their graves at the thought of 6 extremist Catholics on the Supreme Court…
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet, that the one is not three, and the three not one.... But this constitutes the craft, the power, and profits of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion, and they would catch no more flies."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams (August 22, 1813), Works, Vol. IV, p. 205
"Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813
"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding, and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from it’s indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and pre-eminence."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, July 5, 1814, Lester Cappon, ed, The Adams-Jefferson Letters (1959) p. 433
But that pesky separation of church and State thing
Read each commandment and you will see a concept that EITHER directly violates the Constitution OR was borrowed from the Magna Carta which was mostly borrowed from the Viking Danelaw.
@@NSOcarth @NSOcarth you are of course correct Yet Oklahoma is a entire different creature of hate and filth. I was born in Muskogee in 1949. We used to have a hatred of Native People. This has not changed. Oklahoma has Executed more Coloured and Natives people than any other state. Oklahoma is truly White Supremacist in every since of the word. Do a search an Oklahoma Mass Killing of Indians and Coloured people by Kangaroo Courts.
Great discussion. Maybe consider viewing these dynamics through the lens of settler colonialism. From an historical view, It’s an excellent perspective to help understand the overlaps with larger white society.
Many “Latino” Americans or Hispanics have European ancestry. Look it up! Mexico and Central/South America were Spanish/Portuguese colonies. The last time I checked, those countries were in Europe!
it seems Spain and Portugal are like "subcontinent" countries, politically speaking. their former empires get comparatively little attention/credit even though they wreaked as much havoc as any other world empires. none of the inhabitants of their former colonies are "caucasian." All over the americas, if your skin is white and you speak spanish or portuguese you are supposedly not of european descent. This is a practical truth you won't fail to learn and acknowledge when living in the US and probably Canada too. In the americas, white hispanics and "caucasians" are not of the same european cloth, so to speak
Yeah, but most (i.e., almost all) have “mixed” ancestry. They may nonetheless re: themselves as white-there are different systems of racial classification in different countries. Most likely, however, those from or with ancestry from Latin America who espouse this ideology hope that they will eventually be “let in the tent” (of whiteness). It’s unclear if they’ll be right. On the one hand, nationalists believe in power through numbers and the numbers don’t look good for ppl who view their political power through baseline demographics. On the other hand, there are a lot of barriers that these nationalists seem to have with viewing most of those from Latin America as fully fledged members. There are exceptions, but those exceptions are largely due to those individuals having passing phenotypical features and being fully “Americanized” in terms of their English and cultural sensibilities. Difficult to predict how things shake out on that front. However, besides the baptists and bootleggers phenomenon probably in play here, I’ll just mention another thing: there are some ppl who are just really odd. They hold views, engage in behaviors that make little sense from the outside. In the grand scheme of things, since there are over 333 million ppl in this country, and over 8 billion on the planet, little should surprise when it comes to the existence of individual oddities.
The harm it 'can cause'---it's half destroyed already.
The "One True God" does not believe in "democracy." Except when guided and directed by the Church.
A quote from the year 1896: "The work of the Gospel is to make peace between men and God, and
wherever a heart surrenders to God the spirit of *militarism and nationalism* must go." {November 26, 1896, PTUK 755.8}
@@NSOcarthNo. You’d do the Christ-like thing. You’d put yourself in front of the man who was been beaten, take the blows, trust in God, pray for the victim, and forgive the aggressors.
That’s if Christianity is your thing, of course.
I urge you to embrace Hinduism. Lord Krishna loves everyone including you
@@NSOcarth I don't think you understand that parable. It's about the right thing being done by a disreputable person (Samaritans were considered heretical by the original audience) after respectable men passed by. Imagine how I feel when I help strangers and sometimes get thanked for "being a good Christian"? I'm Wiccan, are my kind deeds not valid because of that? It's like if, in the parable, the robbed and injured man told his rescuer "Samaritans can kind? Amazing! I feel so grateful I might forgive your heresy. Maybe."
@@NSOcarth you still don't understand the parable, and because you somehow mistook my explanation for ignorance you feel incredibly smug about not understanding. I'll pray for you.
@@NSOcarth ah, so you DO understand the problem with calling any helpful stranger "a good Christian. " I was afraid that, too, went over your head.
Gorski, at least, is clear-eyed about what kind of short/medium-term project this movement is engaged in. A lot of fluffery and evasion is written and spoken about it by those on the outside of it.
Mixing politics with religion is like mixing manure with ice cream. It doesn't hurt the manure any. -- Jimmy Carter
Great analysis, now how about some solutions?
On Funding religious schools
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545
"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever.”
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800
"Our Constitution ... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to New London Methodists, 1809
The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state.
[James Madison, 1819, in Boston, Why The Religious Right is Wrong about the Separation of Church and State]
James Madison
Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history [attempts where religious bodies had already tried to encroach on the government].
-- James Madison, Detached Memoranda, 1820
“It is contrary to the principles of reason and justice that any should be compelled to contribute to the maintenance of a church with which their consciences will not permit them to join, and from which they can derive no benefit; for remedy whereof, and that equal liberty as well religious as civil, may be universally extended to all the good people of this commonwealth.”
George Mason, Virginia Declaration of Rights, 1776
REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS:
"The divorce between church and state should be absolute. It ought to be so absolute that no Church property anywhere, in any state, or in the nation, should be exempt from equal taxation; for if you exempt the property of any church organization, to that extent you impose a tax upon the whole community."
- James A Garfield, Congressional Record (1874), 2:5384
"Encourage free schools and resolve that not one dollar appropriated for their support shall be appropriated to the support of any sectarian schools. Resolve that neither the state nor nation, nor both combined, shall support institutions of learning other than those sufficient to afford every child growing up in the land of opportunity of a good common school education, unmixed with sectarian, pagan, or atheistical dogmas. Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church and the private school supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate."
-- Ulysses S Grant, address to the Army of the Tennessee, Des Moines, Iowa, September 25, 1875
"In 1850, I believe, the church property in the United States, which paid no tax, amounted to $87 million. In 1900, without a check, it is safe to say, this property will reach a sum exceeding $3 billion. I would suggest the taxation of all property equally."
-- Ulysses S Grant (R)
"Next in importance to freedom and justice is popular education, without which neither justice nor freedom can be permanently maintained. Its interests are intrusted to the States and the voluntary action of the people. Whatever help the nation can justly afford should be generously given to aid the States in supporting common schools; but it would be unjust to our people and dangerous to our institutions to apply any portion of the revenues of the nation or of the States to the support of sectarian schools. The separation of Church and State in everything relating to taxation should be absolute."
- James A Garfield, letter of acceptance of presidential nomination, July 12, 1880
"In my judgment, while it is the duty of Congress to respect to the uttermost the conscientious convictions and religious scruples of every citizen ... not any ecclesiastical organization can be safely permitted to usurp in the smallest degree the functions and powers of the national government."
- James A Garfield, Inaugural Address, March 4, 1881
"Because we are unqualifiedly and without reservation against any system of denominational schools, maintained by the adherents of any creed with the help of state aid, therefore, we as strenuously insist that the public schools shall be free from sectarian influences, and above all, free from any attitude of hostility to the adherents of any particular creed."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (R)
"We all agree that neither the Government nor political parties ought to interfere with religious sects. It is equally true that religious sects ought not to interfere with the Government or with political parties. We believe that the cause of good government and the cause of religion suffer by all such interference."
-- Rutherford B Hayes (R), Statement as Governor of Ohio, 1875
I was talking to someone Latino guy and he was saying within his family there were people that were Protestant Christians trying to break the family apart and break their family down
Yes, cults causes families to break apart.
Sounds like y'all are talking about D. Trump, T. Carlson and S. Hannity.
FOUNDING FATHERS VIEWS - CHURCH STATE SEPARATION:
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)
"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)
"Experience witnesseth that eccelsiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assembly, June 20, 1785
"It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a Religious establishment, and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by a legal provision for its Clergy. The experience of Virginia conspicuously corroborates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State."
-- James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh written "late in his life," in Robert L Maddox, Separation of Church and State: Guarantor of Religious Freedom (1787)
"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U S forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them, and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does this not involve the principle of a national establishment?"
James Madison, "Essay on Monopolies"
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780
"[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to James Sullivan, 1797. ME 9:379
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings is that ... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to Baptist Address, 1807
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82
"I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808) ME 16:320.
"Our Constitution ... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to New London Methodists, 1809
"Christianity neither is nor ever was a part of the Common Law. For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law ... This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first Christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it ... That system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800
You missed my favorite:
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding.
- Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams:
@@ChibiHoshiDragon Indeed! Here’s more correspondence between the two a decade earlier:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet, that the one is not three, and the three not one.... But this constitutes the craft, the power, and profits of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion, and they would catch no more flies."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams (August 22, 1813), Works, Vol. IV, p. 205
"Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813
"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding, and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from it’s indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and pre-eminence."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, July 5, 1814, Lester Cappon, ed, The Adams-Jefferson Letters (1959) p. 433
@@ChibiHoshiDragon A couple more from the Father of the Constitution:
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.”
-- James Madison
"That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some, and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for such a business."
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 24, 1774
This channel needs to make some shorter clips to get this info out. Many people won’t sit for this long of video but there are good messages here.
Judeo-Christian tradition: “We like the Old Testament, too.” 🙄
How do you promote Democracy in a Constitutional Republic without saying you're opposed to the concept of a Constitutional Republic in the first place?
I’m Hispanic, and my ancestors came to the Americas in the 15th and 16th Centuries from Spain and Portugal, mainly due to the Inquisition (they were Sephardic Jews forced to convert or flee.). My great grandfather was born in Texas in the late nineteenth century, and his family was born in what’s now Texas before the Battle of the Alamo. My birth certificate has both of my parents’ race listed as White. Why are my ancestors not considered European? I returned to Judaism over 25 years ago…en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Inquisition
My surname is Carabajal, read the article for an enlightenment on the atrocities of the Catholic Church. Btw, I have never been a Catholic, as my father was agnostic and my mother was Church of God before converting to another Evangelical Church.
Its kind of difficult to explain this to my friends and family in the South.
They think its an accusation against white christians who are patriotic.
While rather there is an anti democratic, racist faction existing at the junction of white christianity and politics. The nationalism label is less descriptive here, except that they think the nation belongs to white people, “purchased with white blood”.
Somehow that logic doesnt apply to Black, Asian and Native blood.
You didnt mention this, but the right’s characterization of Democrats as Socialist succeeds in drawing in Latino Americans and Asian Americans who may have experienced socialist revolutions. Cubans are a perfect example of this.
I doubt that the White Christian Nationalist core would accept Chinese or El Salvadorean Americans into their fold. But they are happy to take their votes, and exploit them for cover from accusations of racism.
What does Christian Nationalism have to do with Christianity?!
Very little!
This is a great video these guys need to check their sound play in the buddies though.. Half of the sound was muffled they need a sound editor ..
2:14
In GOD we trust in GOD we trust … …wow not… it’s from what we study …study is the joy of the Bible. You should try it
Why the false assumptions just taken for granted?
Fake Riteousness.
This didn't age well. I wonder if this joker was surprised to find out what the "insurrection" really was.
Not a damn thing
Absolutely nothing. One Religion has no right to claim the USA or should have any of their belieenshrined in law. That's Iran and the other Religion ruled country's. We are free from your beliefs. You are not americans but pushing your beliefs. We are not a Christian country.
"I don't want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it."
-- Rev. Billy Graham,
Parade, 1981
“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of
the [Republican] party, and
they're sure trying to do so,
it's going to be a terrible
damn problem. Frankly, these
people frighten me. Politics
and governing demand
compromise. But these
Christians believe they are
acting in the name of God, so
they can't and won't
compromise. I know. I've
tried to deal with them.”
~ Republican Barry Goldwater
"I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in ‘A,' ‘B,' C' and ‘D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliets to me?. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.'”
- The late Sen. Barry Goldwater (R-AZ), the 'Father of Modern Conservatism' and 1964 GOP presidential candidate, speaking to the US Senate, September, 1981.
I am half-way through the video, and am wondering if what the authors are doing inadvertently--and contrary to what they say are their intentions--is lumping people who agree with half--or less--of the statements they call (or "all") white Christian nationalist together with actual full-dress white Christian nationalists. (They say they are not but some commenters seem to think that is what they are saying and approve of it.) I still doubt that people who would agree with the whole white Christian nationalist agenda amount to more than a vocal minority. I know these people exist because I have gotten push back from them for my evidently too tolerant but nevertheless conservative views. I just don't think they represent any of the many conservatives I listen to or read. Rather, I see too many people smearing people as white Christian nationalists because they are white by an accident of birth, Christian because they were brought up in a church, and happen to have (an often non-exclusionary) patriotism.
Ha! Christian nationalism 😂
I have mentally struggled with the Christian Nationalism awareness cause. I echo Napp's concern about the vagueness of the questions. A lot of people want to see Christian values promoted by the government and wanting religious imagery in the public square is hardly a fringe view. I do believe there are people who are using "Christian Nationalism" as a smear towards politically active conservative Christians in general.
That said, I commend Gorski and Perry for making some effort to distinguish between white evangelicals and white Christian nationalists, and noting that it is more a spectrum than a solid classification.
The Putin comparison also helps, as it reminds me of those xenophobic European politicians who talk of wanting to advance "Christian civilization" and view their nation as being ideally white Christian, but are not themselves personally religious.
I also think of Norway mass shooter Anders Behring Breivik, whose manifesto spoke a lot of Christianity, but viewed it more as a cultural entity than a spiritual belief system. Breivik seems to fit the Christian Nationalism label very well, as he had nominal Christian symbolism, nationalist sentiment, over-idealizing of Europe's past, xenophobic beliefs, and a positive view of violence as a means to cure perceived social ills.
Christian nationalism is definitely not a fringe ideology in the US, though as you say it's a spectrum. Most people in the US are weak or moderate on the scale.
That's right!!
@@Magnulus76 there are many who claim to be christian. However Christ said we will know who His True Disciples are only by their Love..
@@andrewortiz5797 No, sorry, I'd rather have John 14:13, be the defining qualification.
Mahavira could love... and Gandhi, and Guru Nanak, plus Siddhartha.
Thomas Jefferson too, and Voltaire, and secularists.
But only purported Christians, could do 'these things, and greater than I... shall you do'.
And I do not recall, Pope Paul III, Calvin, or Torquemada... ever being asked, to prove such.
Before they too, could... make, policy...?
@@NSOcarth Well, the logic simply is - how do outsiders tell what a real Christian is, or an effective one, or a unified one?
Not much else, yet, beyond that.
The rest is perhaps laying claim to traits that are simply not unique to one creed.
As for heritage - there's a lot I like (in the UK) and quite a lot, I don't.
Or is perhaps admitted to be a team effort with other imported influences, cultures, shared learning, and interaction.
And also, yes, the Bible has been made available. The mainstream prominent one, and also the 'Street Bible' (with it's numerous bowdlerisms, too, at that)
People will then, react to it varyingly, I guess.
I'm with you on most of this. I've written multiple essays about 7 years ago on the topic. The one difference that I have is the racism. I don't I don't see that. Well, I do see racism today, but it's overwhelmingly coming from the black community. In fact when we look at national crime data we see that 90% of interracial crime, is black on white... I'm curious as to how much time either one of these authors has spent in Black neighborhoods. They should try that out for a little while and get a good taste of the incredible hatred and racism within the black communities.
Wow, have you spent time in black neighborhoods? How did you experience "incredible hatred and racism" from black people?
I wouldn't call it racism. I'd call it living up to the low standards forced upon them by society. I too have lived for years the only white man married to a non white woman, in a 2 mile radius. I can honestly say that if it weren't for my Jamaican born neighbors, violence would have happened against me and my kids, by SOME American blacks. But through hard work and community service my neighbors came to befriend us. The violence I've seen was disproportionately white cop vs my black neighbors. I've had to intervene on several occasions.
Oh, here we go again. Seriously? Wake up already!
We know that Christ is the Savior of the WORLD (1 John 4:14). And we are to have the mind of Christ
(Philippians 2:5). Hence, we too know that our "kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). The Apostle Paul stated that "Our
citizenship is in heaven", and those of faith "confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 11:13-16).
Paul was NOT an apostle.
Paul preached opposing christ without calling him out. Paul convinced believers that he Paul knew christ, he didn't know him, and could speak for him. No. Paul doesn't speak FOR Jesus, he speaks against him, causing confusion among believers.
I just love how you explicitly state how anti humanity Christianity is.
Oh, here we go again. You can't help it, can you?
Short answer: nothing!
Nothing, it’s the antithesis of democracy.