I made an updated version of this list months ago, but it seems everyone is still watching this one instead, so if you want justice for Fire Rockets, please watch this video instead! ruclips.net/video/W5x60C1Pzok/видео.html
European mangonels have one tactical advantage: if you have one in your army then the enemy _will_ attack you, even if they're supposed to be the defenders. Then again, while this can be handy it means that you have to endure the annoying decreased movement speed of the army.
I was playing as the Chosokabe. I invade the Shimazu The Shimazu get christianity, and thus, gunpowder I think "bah, I can take out this army, I have a full stack elite army fully equipped with elite samurai units" my army routs before I reach them why? European cannons.
*TO THOSE STILL COMMENTING ABOUT HOW THE FIRE ROCKETS SHOULDN'T BE ON THIS LIST, I AGREE. WHICH IS WHY I MADE A VIDEO TALKING ABOUT THAT LESS THAN A WEEK AFTER THIS VIDEO WENT UP. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO GIVE THAT A WATCH IF YOU FEEL OUTRAGED AT MY DECISION.* ruclips.net/video/VsIKTX_8aoM/видео.html
also you are forgetting the hojo clan relies on the magonels and castles as there main strength they will even take entire conventions of magonel's in to field battles just to dominate them with the firepower so you got to clearify that with them and give them the European cannons watch out they are the precursers to enlightenement warfare and pre napoleon in terms of artillery.
Haha I'm coming in a year later to see this comment. Let's see if I can guess what your video said. The reason Fire Rockets are amazing in this game is because their defining balance characteristic is very low accuracy. Out of the volley, you can expect most of the rockets to miss. HOWEVER, by the time you gain access to Fire Rockets, very late in the tech tree, you should also have obtained max-level accuracy bonuses via the Fletcher, Archery training camp thing, and Legendary Archery Dojo. If you build Fire Rockets with max accuracy bonus, their accuracy is more than doubled and you start getting closer to 75% of the rockets hitting instead of 25%, at which point their effect is overwhelming. Now, time to go watch your other video and see if I was right :D
LMAO Duuuude you’re sooo damn right about the mangonels and cannons. However, let’s not forget if the others like them bec of their strategic choice or bec they want to hear the cannons go BOOM
They don't even have to be in yari wall to be effective. Just accep that they are a great unit all round because they can outflank pretty much every other unit due to their sheer numbers. For each samurai unit, you can have 2 ashigaru in the same time, and at 2/3 of their cost. Ain't that good enough?
It's largely because how stats progression in this game work. Each veterancy rank give +1 to all stat, for the like of Samurai unit, that's a 10% increase or less - hardly noticeable because their initial stat is already high to begin with. While for Ashigaru this could mean between 25% increase to 100% increase from their base stat, essentially double their effectiveness with each veterancy they gain. Take into account that upkeep cost for Ashigaru is about half to a third of Samurai, mean that you can get 2 - 3 Ashigaru for every 1 Samurai given the same upkeep. And fielding army of elite Samurai now become less appealing. Oh, and Ashigaru army with very few Samurai is in fact historically accurate by the way.
I loved that how no matter how strong I got, Ashigaru never stopped being useful. Need quick reinforcements? Train Ashigaru. Want to bulk out your army? Get Ashigaru. Cheap anti-cavalry? Ashigaru will beat horsemen who cost way more than them. Budget strained because of so many wars? Ashigaru are dirt cheap. Storming a castle and need something to take arrow fire for your unarmored monks? Ashigaru do it better than anyone. Want to overwhelm and envelop the enemy with massive numbers as you laugh in the face of casualties? Ashigaru will do it easily, especially if you play Ikko-Ikki. Almost every army I ever used could boast at least a few Ashigaru, and they made me proud in countless battles.
The biggest positive that something like the cannons or the mangonels have is the ability to force the enemy to attack you. Essentially, any land battle can become a defensive fight for you and make it much easier, by allowing you to pick and choose where you can defend. Having the choice of dumping all of your archers in a wooded area, right by an open field, can completely turn a battle. Two terrible archer units can defeat good archer units by merely getting that wood bonus. You can also create massive bonuses by picking a hill and holding it. This might be an abuse of the AI and how it works but, I think it's worth deploying very long range units for these kinds of tactics every now and again.
that's how I plan on doing it in the game and that's how I usually do it anyway play it defensive on a offencive move and win though attrition. easy enough. even with darth mod this works perfectly.
I had a blast using Yari Samurai on Multiplayer games though against enemies who I expect will use a heavily defensive range build like the one you like to use (nagis + bow monks) The trick is using a small detachment of these boys to rush an opening towards their archers where you cant rush the enemy with cav because the enemy has spear protection. This relies on the enemy expecting that "ooh yari sams are one of the worst units in Shogun 2 so he wont bring any". Likewise, this effect multiplies so many times over against FotS armies. It is difficult to stop a well timed and well placed Yari Sam charge when using a modern core. Youd be forced to reposition and the enemy could have had been anticipating this. Opening you up to further attacks. Like so, I tend to bring two Yari Sams when I expect an enemy to bring a defensive ranged army
One time i won a game against a FOTS army that in the early game when he took the 3 key buildings, we agreed that it was a impossible game to me to win, but i winned by distracting with my bows to fight with his bows and infantry while i walked invisible on the forest with yari samurai and some yari ashigaru to support, his infantry cannot have a chance when with rapid advance, my samurai quicky attacked them by behind winning very quicky 1 unit by the time.
I find the fire rockets are actually best used as anti cavalry as the moral shock, distance from other units and the fact that a signal volley can kill half the unit cause most cavalry (even great guard) to quickly rout.
I can see why it is hard to make the connection that fire rockets are anti-cavalry if you mostly just play campaign. The only reason I knew about it is many surprise rocket volleys into cavalry ambushes in multiplayer.
the problem with Katana Cavalry is because there are so many infantry with anti cavalry bonus. They are excellent at fighting Katana Samurai, gunner infantry, Nodachi Samurai and bow infantry
@@lukeharman7054 its aged okay at best. Its ui and quality of life features are sorely lacking compared to warhammer 2. It used to be my favorite TW. Think i have around 600-700 hours in it. I have over double that in Warhammer 2 now tho. Ocassionally i get the itch to fire it back up and after pkaying it for 10 minutes i quickly start remembering how clunky it is compared to Warhammer 2. Having said that it is still very good and has its own charm. Other than Warhammer 2 id probably be inclined to play Shogun 2/Fall of the Samurai over any other TW thats not Warhammer.
@@MoronicChunk1 warhammer 2 is great but if you want to enjoy a quick campaign it's not great, also there's something to be said for how well balanced and streamlined shogun 2 is compared to later tw games. Not saying better, but I think it's aged incredibly well and will have a place for a long time for people like me who enjoy how much more streamlined it is
@@lukeharman7054 based off of the lack of unit variety alone it’s not the best Total War. When one army build not only works super well for one faction but for ALL of them? Far too limited to be the best. That crown probably should go to Medieval 2 IMO.
I only ever use fire bomb throwers and fire rockets in defensive sieges, if you're outnumbered then a few of those on the walls are all you could ask for.
Yeah, fire bomb throwers have single handedly won me legendary campaigns, just by baiting the AI to throw their armies at my castle walls and I make them explode in return.
If anyone is watching this video 5 years later please know there's a withdraw button on the bottom left hand corner when doing offensive battles. That means you can attack a fortress with fire rockets, rack up hundreds of kills then withdraw suffering 0 losses. Sieging out may take longer than the available time you have.
I don't know, for the unprepared those bombs can annihilate whole armies, they crush morale. It's a bit more useful than granadiers from NTW with the con of being an unit
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I use a cheap "friendly fire" strategy with firebomb throwers that works surprisingly well at all stages of the game early, middle and late, and is similar to the way grenadiers work in ETW: I build an army of 9 ashigaru yari, 4 ashigaru bows, and 6 firebomb throwers. I put my ashigaru yari in spearwall just in case the enemy sends their cav head-first. Right behind mi yari lines are the bows and firebombs. I brings bows to make sure that the enemy will launch an attack shortly after peppering my army with archers. If I am confronted with a lot of bowmen, I try to pull back my firebomb throwers out of range, but not too much. Once the enemy sends the infantry or cavalry, this is when it pays off. My yari will withstand the charge, pin the enemy down, and the firebombs get to work, blasting friend and foe alike BUT doing more damage to the enemy than my own troops. After 2 to 3 salvos, the enemy infantry flees in panic, even 1 salvo if it's cavalry. I have routed katana, yari cav and generals in this way before they could cut down my ashigaru yari. Once the dust settles, I find some of my yari are in bad shape from the friendly fire, but they cost nothing, so I either let them replenish or fuse them together with another depleted unit. And you can recruit ashigaru yari in any castle on the map... In the words of Edward "Longshanks" the 1st at the battle of Falkirk: - Archers ! - I beg pardon, Sire, but won't we hit our own troops ? - Yes ... but we'll hit theirs as well !
I agree most of it. but not rocket, I use it to kill the most treating unit before they reach me ,1 rocket can finish 2 units normally, and some times 3.
After finishing this video I started doubting my own decision to put them at the #3 spot. I still wouldn't value them much higher, but perhaps #5 or something, they're not as bad as I made them out to be.
Ahh, this brings me back to the Shogun 2 golden days when multiplayer was very populated. Katana cav definitely had a place there as a sort of niche anti-inf unit. They were tricky to use, but if employed correctly could get hundreds of kills! I remember one time, my favourite vert kat cav got over 500 kills against a loan-sword spammer! Nonetheless, yari cav was my favourite unit in the whole game. So versatile and really benefited from heavy micro. Sorry for the ramble, but I sometimes come across these shogun 2 videos and get all nostalgic for Shogun 2 haha :) I sure do miss those prime multiplayer days when the community was extremely active.
JELLOPICKLE you should start playing again, Shogun 2 just recently went free for a week. There are many new players and I believe it’s acting as a sort of renaissance for the game.
@@boxcarz It’s been a year but I can still find a game in under a minute a lot of the time. Even in naval battles, so it seems the game is still affected from that boost of players from last year.
YES. They actually do that. I've actually seen that happen. I was doing a land battle at Osaka Plain and my Mori clan enemy was doing a cavalry charge. My fire rockets fired and routed them in one volley. European cannons have a similar ability against cavalry.
I really love mangonels because they can kill a lot of enemy unit from far range, i always use mangonels on field battle, they are accurate on targeting the ground but not targeting the unit, thats why if u target the enemy unit by using the mangonels, it will try to shoot the side of the unit to make it unaccutate
I've found that two or three Mangonels make a great addition to your forces when on the defensive side of a siege. I never get more than two and sometimes only one because they have such limited ammo. However, they can just obliterate large numbers of enemies as they're coming at your walls. Case in point: I once defended a castle from my brother during a lan party. Part of our rules were that the defender got nearly half the credits of the attacker. He sent every single one of his melee units directly at my front while flanking with ranged units and a single cavalry unit. I lost a few archers but his melee units were completely destroyed by Mangonel fires. After the initial attack my Mangonels were out of ammo so I dropped the engines and had the crews help with mopping up the rest of my brother's units. It was pretty easy after that. LoL :)
All of this information is wrong, katana cav are a great unit, having 1 or 2 in your army allows you to make effective mobile hammers to quickly route archers while your yari cav charges from behind, katana cav is also very important if you're playing as Takeda because most of the opponents army will route whenever shingen comes near them, thus you might sustain heavy losses and still might have to deal with another big army, katana cav will kill a lot more routing enemies than general or yari cav. This guy has already made a video apologizing for fire rockets, yari samurai are a great unit for charging into archer lines first or you may lose your ashigaru to bows, naginatas are too slow for this job so having 1 or 2 units of yari can be helpful if you dont have katana cav, yari sam also dont suffer from cavalry damage since the AI always tends to keep a unit of yari near the archer line, Sieging the opponent out is not always an option you may need to secure the province and direct your army elsewhere.
oooooooohhhhhhh.... now i understand why i used to lose all the time with my "yari samurai as the only anti-cav" army! they suck! i disagree a bit with the european cannons tho
oooooooooooopps sorry for the late response! i think that, yes the cannons are bad in the field i know that, but they once saved my life in siege battles by killing their archers. But again, its very situational and its best to siege them out! thats why i used the "a bit"
The only times I'll risk a castle assault is when I have the advantage in skirmishers, early game this can be easy since they start with samurai retinue making it easy for two units of bow ashigaru to clean up. But once they get more than two skirmishers then I get hesitant. Usually after that you'll either have to outnumber their skirmishers three to one to safely assault, but otherwise you'll have to bear the casualties.
European cannons are powerful against cavalry in land battles. And unlike their mangonel counterparts, the cannons are not operated by storm troopers which means that they are VERY accurate. They can demolish enemy cavalry.
Well, I'm not playing on legendary but I actually do offensive sieges quite often. After beating all the enemy troops into a pulp in a field battle, I'll just leave the samurai retainers to my archers
"If you're fighting offensive sieges, you're doing it wrong." Not at all. Siege battles are the most fun battles. Well worth sacrificing a good portion of the army for that reason alone. Besides, if they've only got a small garrison, the siege will last too long and the cost of an assault will be fairly minor. Of course, in that case, there'd be little need for those rockets, except for the fun of it.
I feel like if you have 60:40 odds or better, a siege attack can be well worth the saved time. As I've played more I've started to use castle counters a lot (Ninja sabotage gates, bow monk archers, high armor/morale infantry), and when you bring these strategies into a siege, it's a lot more fun.
it is idiot to use katana cav (kc) to fight any yari troops, except dismounting. 1/ We can use kc to charge on enemy's back side. 2/ its worth when fighting against enemy's sword troops and bow troops especially. 3/ When dismounting, it become valuable to fight any kind of melee troops e.g: with 1 samurai retainer and 2 kc, we can gain a heroic victory against 3 bow ashigaru & 4 yari ashigaru. Charging on their bow and dismounting when facing yari.
I appreciate your disclosure that you play on harder difficulty. Me and my friends mostly play for fun at lower levels, so I like some of these units. Not sure why people are getting angry at your opinion considering that the opinions of skilled players are very welcome and useful.
I love the yari samurai. They do tend to suffer heavy losses, fold back on themselves and flee in prolonged hand to hand combat, but they are really effective when intercepting cavalry charging your bow units. Unlike the naginata, they have the 'charge' special ability.
I would take the katana cavalry (even when you don't play the Takeda) out of the list, though I agree it should never be the only cavalry unit you use. It is probably the most effective way to take out experienced katana and bow samurai (mostly in a single player when the AI can have more experienced troops and generals by you). Just keep it away from spears and other cavalry (except for the general units). Even in a bad place, the katana cavalry can survive significantly longer and deal significant casualties on bow and swords. Dismounted katana cavalry can produce good results in certain situations as they are a few but very competent swordsmen. That being said, I almost lost a general by a mangonel fire. In addition, if your army moves in several lines, mangonel fire is annoying. I hate that unit though as it is relies on a lucky shot so let it rot on the first place. :P European cannons at least have some use for a siege.
Seriously you haven't seen what those units' advantages and where you should position them. Most of the units you talked about are not frontline units, you can't expect been good at the frontline... The only ones I agree are the mangonel and the cannon. Seriously, I tried to hit huge immobile units or walls and well... not good...
Eh, I feel like they could be a good alternative to traditional katana samurai serving as just a much more mobile front line when protected by yari cav, but would require much more micro than I would be willing to put up with. I might like to use them as a sort of primative mechanized infantry where they use their horses to quickly get to a place on the battlefield and then dismount them to use them like regular samurai with the option to pull back, remount, and reposition to another area or to handle range heavy armies since that's all mounted katana samurai seem good for.
Fan Yechao i use them to massacre bow infantry and katana infantry while using the spear cavalry to distract the enemy spear cavalry so that they won't reach my katana cavalry.
true, I actually won a campaign as Takeda where i had 3 Yari cav and 10 Katana cav, yari cav would deal with enemy cav, and katana cav can deal with anything else. if they have fx 5 spear units you just dismount 5 katana. have another 5 katana cavs to deal with archers and katana infantry. Not very economically good, but i could take on anything with ease
Katana cav is great. Very mobile so you can reach the enemy infantry and bows quickly. They make quick work of anything in their path. Their only weakness is a head on spear charge and obviously if you are doing that you should probably not play this game lol
I found that when playing single player you ALWAYS want to play the siege, not because you'll get any advantage but because the AI is terrible when it comes to defending a castle. It's entirely possible to take Kyoto within 3 turns if you play the guys close to them, and trick the AI during the siege
it also depends on how you use the units. I keep my firebomb throwers in a thick forest and immediately run away after they throw (if the enemy dispatches units to get rid of them) then I come back later once the fight's more developed and they don't have as much to divert
I heavily disagree with what you say about the cannons. You could position cannons on a slope, cliff, or hill and use the higher ground to your advantage. *However, I do understand that unlike Artillery in other Total War games such as Napoleon or Medieval II (which I have more experience with than the Artillery of Shogun II),* you can not reposition the Mangonels and European Cannons once they are deployed into battle and most artillery in other Total War games can be repositioned besides the Giant Ballista in Rome II and some units of artillery in Empire. *One problem that I should also address is that cavalry could possibly attempt to neutralise your artillery from behind or the sides whilst hiding, or enemy artillery can target yours and destroy it.*
All related to cavalry can have another point of view: 1. If your army have only horsemen - it moves to much longer distances on the global map, so you need there mounted archers, spears and some katanas aswell for the castles. 2. In combat - Katana cavalry can (Dismount) as all else cavalry, so it transforms into Katana Samurai if needed. (with posibility to mount again for mobility). Cavalry is faster than infantry so if u see someone rushing to you - just drag them away and deal with them outside area of their general, in this case they flee much faster just after few casualities. (If you don't like micro control - you can just run to the forest&dismount&engage the incoming enemy spearmen (just wait for them in the trees, the enemy charge bonus will be significantly reduced). Also the "charging tactic" is very easy performed by those mounted swordsmen (better than the light cavalry even if those ones have bigger charge stats), the Katana Samurai have better close combat defence so attack the infantry from behind (even spear ones) and instantly recall your horses back to the way they came, before the enemy will get up moust of your horses will be away, you can lose none or some troops, but after they go out of combat you can charge again, in moust of cases 2 charges are enough to make enemy infantry flee (if they're dragged away from the enemy generals), the charge strike make massive damage and you dont need to keep the horses in the long combat. 3. Assaulting castles against AI is the easiest way to conquer&save your troops, there are a lot of ways to take castles without much losses, even against much bigger armies, remember - AI is dumb, all archers can be gathered at oposite walls (they move where is all your army) and kept there just by a single asigaru squad out of enemy fire range and not hidden. The rest is just a tactic. Ignite gates or climb&capture them after your archers will fire all arrows, Even with one Yari samurai at the begin of the game you can take fast many castles at the legend dificulty level, before your tech will grow.
Katana cav (Takeda)=offensive siege, better katana samurai on foot (against spear units should be on foot anyways) against sword units should be on horse back. Have superior maneuverability than any infantry. The case of katana cav is just a case of a unit used wrong.
Obviously very late but definitely disagree with the fire rockets and european cannons/magonels. Your whole assertion that you should never be doing an offensive siege is just awful. In theory, starving out the enemy might make sense, but in the game you'll pretty much be giving your enemy ample time to form an army to hunt you down. This is especially noticeable on legendary, where the a.i. get to spawn free units every turn, and in general have way more unit production. You should always be trying to finish sieges as quick as possible, so that you become the defender and get the units. This also leads to your misconceptions about mangonels, cannons and fire rockets. Having 5 mangonels/cannons in an army can absolutely delete any castle with 20 units in it. You dont aim at the towers, but at the walls/ramparts, which are much easier to destroy and easier to hit. If you're concerned about movement speed and accuracy, I usually keep them in a secondary army with a general focusing on campaign map range. They follow along, staying out of field battles, and then help wipe out castles in sieges. Your points about vulnerability make no sense since they should either be way out of range or behind some other units (who will attract a.i. fire since thats how they work.)
a good list the only ones that don't apply in MP are 1 (only the mangonels) and 3 and 1 only in MP sieges where you're the attacker, mostly because they'll kill enemy units in the castle. As you said in SP playing offensive sieges is dumb. But in MP the fact of bringing siege units will force players (with their precious few defender units) away from walls, giving you free access to the first wall set (since almost all MP sieges are on Ari castle) fire rockets are useful in MP field battles because it forces an attack but weather or not thats worth the cost of them depends on the setup of the game and your opponent, many players will gladly let you shoot fire rockets at weak units (ashigaru and naginata levy) if they are in a good position, or simply rush your 1000 koku weaker army before the fire rockets can earn they're value
One thing I will say about the artillery (I agree they're hardly worth the effort) is that you can construct a separate siege train to follow behind the main army, so the reduced movement doesn't affect you as much- that practice alone doesn't make them worth fielding, but it does alleviate one of their bigger tactical weaknesses.
It does though, it might not literally make your main army slower, but if you want to use them in battle, you'll still have to wait for them to reach, so you're dealing with the same problem regardless.
***** Typically speaking your main army is stopping to maintain order in recently conquered provinces, in my experience at least they've been able to keep pace with relatively minimal delays.
What you're saying doesn't make sense though. If they're keeping pace anyway, then why not put them in the main army to begin with. It doesn't matter if they're in your first, second, or 50th stack, if you want to use them in battles, they will have to stay in reinforcement range of your main army, which means your main army has to slow down to make sure they can keep up, meaning you're still limited to their movement range.
***** What I mean is, the couple of turns the main army spends waiting in a town you're sieging or have just sieged and are controlling the populace gives the siege train time to catch up for when you're setting up for the main sieges on clan strongholds. From a realistic and thematic perspective you don't need the siege weapons to be there for every minor town, so long as they're there for the major fortresses.
Fun thing while firing at the enemy they hit near ro none, when i forgot where i had them aim, they perfectly hit my own men killing quite a lot of them with one hit.
Aaaaah mangonels love the range hate the accuracy. Also the reason why I use up their ammo first before letting my men charge. Use up a lot of time but atleast no friendly fire
I agree with every part. Just to add, the problem with low accuracy of the magnonels can be easily solved (or at least lowered) by hiring them in a province with Master Bowmaker and Hunting Lodge. Than they can be useful.
agree for singleplayer. for multiplayer however, katana cav were excellent where you need the mobility to reach the non-spear infantry (katanas, bows, and matchlocks were popular last time i played), and you could just leave them there to chew up the enemy and to micro other units unlike the yari cav which you needed to micro for repeat charges. yari samurai were my favourite- they were niche picks but they were the cheapest high morale units that could hold the line and could respond very quickly to flanking enemies. while infantry was always the core of the battle, the player that was better at cavalry micro and anti-cav defense usually won
I've actually had a fair bit of luck with offensive sieges. I tend to move in 1 or 2 full sized armies, starve the enemy until winter arrives, storm the place with barrages of ranged attacks sometimes combined with follow-up melee attacks from all directions.
fire Bombers of the hojo can actually be very good in defensive and also in offenive battles. my battle order is normaly 2 fire bombers up front yari ashigaruh then and in the back archers. In the case of an defense battle, you wait until the enemy attacks and trows a row of bombs in retreat the Yaris can figth. in offensive battles it is similar, you combat units directly behind your fire Bombers and after the first row attack. in certain situations they can fuck up the archers of the enemy too if you get them there.
i've used the cannons/mangonels pretty successfully in shogun 2. get them on a hill during a siege and target a wall and wipe out an entire unit on said wall, works everytime. never had issues with accuracy, just reload time.
I agree with the mangonels, which is why I always take two for my sieging army. I just sit back and occasionally correct their area of bombardment. The benefit of having two and an enemy too stupid to spread his units apart is that, even if you miss, you'll still hit something. I disagree for the fire rockets though. They're one of the best units I've ever played and they're incredibly fun to use. If the enemy attacks me then I let the rockets shoot 'em up, facilitating bracing for my infantry behind them. Then my archers can slice them even more and my infantry engages. It's even better when you get into melee, because while you're enemy is busy trying to get through your line, you can use your rockets to blow up any archers in the back lines. Of course, you can always bait them since, as you said, fire rockets are primarily targeted. So while your opponents keeps trying to shoot them with their archers, your own get to take easy potshots.
Can argue about fire rockets: in a hit-n-run situation they can fire a deadly burst on their enemy, especially if there is dense infantry and cav in it's ranks. running right after the burst will get them out of reach, and they will remain very useful firing from behind after the infantry clash happens. it is one of my fav units.
Check the top comment on this video, I made a new video about a week after this video went up saying I made a mistake placing Fire Rockets in this list.
I'd have to disagree a bit on the Mangonels. While I personally haven't used the Cannons yet, the Mangonels are essentially good to hit the troops behind the fortifications. I've explicitly read that, since the japanese castles are laid out this way, the siege weapons were less about hitting structures and more about hitting the bunched soldiers behind them. I've used Mangonels in my Shimazu campaign and, in offensive desperate sieges, they're really good at scaring units or just flatout demolish part of their numbers before your soldiers arrive on the walls. Granted, I wouldn't use them in any land battle and will only use them situationally, but they do have their own uses.
Did you not see their accuracy in the video, even when aiming them at bunched up stationary units behind a wall they'll miss a ton of their shots. You could see in the video when trying to hit a gate which was actually fairly close to them, they only his about a 4th of their shots, and even when they do hit, their damage isn't anything spectacular. A single unit of Bow Warrior Monks also outranges the opponent behind a wall and will do much more damage. On top of that, as I said in the video, don't fight offensive sieges, you can siege enemies out in just a few turns and it's always worth it, another downside of the Mangonels is having to drag them with you slowing down your campaign movement a ton. A more important question is, with what you've said, where would you have placed them, would they even be on the list? Or are you just saying they're not as bad as I said, but you'd still leave them on the number 1 spot?
Well, yeah, they are pretty bad in general since we're speaking of versatility. Siege weapons are always situational as they focus on a small part of the game. So they definitely belong on top of the list; its just that they do have their uses which I thought I could point out. Speaking of the accuracy - I think they're meant to do that. Not only catapults are in general hit and miss, but their explosive shots can scatter bunched infantry. Since the A.I. is pretty dumb, it won't try to evade the hits. But the question regarding using mangonels basically sums to: Do the enemies have a lot of units that bunch up together? (You wouldn't use a mangonel against a single samurai retainer unit, if you even choose to fight that battle and not autoresolve). In the same sense, being able to take out around 10-15 soldiers of any given unit without any repercussion whatsoever seems pretty fine, with the added bonus of morale hit and being able to spread fire to all joined fortifications. So, in short, see them as anti-infantry in sieges as opposed to anti-castle. Again, this is assuming that the mangonels are in perfect conditions, which most often they aren't. And these small bonuses are often dwarfed by other, better units, like Bow Warrior Monks as you said. It's also pretty funny watching some dudes scatter by well placed mangonel shots. Anyways, cheers and thanks for another great video, loving the Tokugawa series so far!
I appreciate your well written arguments, it's nice being able to have a discussion like adults for once. I will admit that in the situation you described, they would probably serve their use, but indeed, as you also said, other units can fill a similar job, and do it just as well, if not better. With the added bonus of being useful in many other situations as well rather than only in one specific scenario.
i remember playing 1 campagin a long time ago and I decided to have some fun by building an army full of mangols. i would always reinforce it ofc. i would blow a whole army to hell before sieging. super fun to play especially when a large army is cramped in a small town. However not really viable playing harder than hard.
For fire rockets and cannons... recruit them in a providence that gives max +accuracy to ranged units. Buzen, Hoki, Echizen and Hitachi with a hunting lodge. I do this all the time with firerockets and they own.
i always found the katana cav to be AMAZING, what you do is that you have 4 yari cav( or even ligth cav) and 4-6 katan cavalry, you charge the enemys cav with youre yarri (or ligth) first soaking up the enemys charge with theam and giving theam youres then you charge in youre katan cavalry who will brutally murder the enemys cav with thiere high attack (its base is 18 vs the yarris 1 defence) then you can EASILY wipe the floor with any enemy katan infatry or even spear infatry all you need to do is dismount and hey you have a katan infatry unit (all be it all small number of theam) Naginata samuria will be a problem though since you need a good (dismounted) charge to win that figth or a bit of vetrancy
“But Donkey”, I say, “Sitting on the campaign map and never fighting an offensive siege battle is *_fucking boring_* .” I’m just messing around, to be clear. But it’s still a little fun seeing enemies fly fifty feet in the fucking air off their castles when hit with artillery.
There is one good use I had with the fire rockets, in my campaign I would have an army for field battles that would protect my secondary army which was entirely bow warrior monks and fire rockets, doing this I was able to pull off offensive sieges where as I killed the entire garrison over and over with just range units without losing any men. This is of course a fairly limited use and requires a beefy army to protect it though
I'd say fire rockets are Amazing when besieging the enemy and on large field battles, but I only get them when having upgraded accuracy because of the misfire chance. Never had an issue with Letting them get killed. I say you have to do some offensive sieges to avoid winter, blitz the enemy rather than letting them prepare and because the enemy usually sallies forth on the very last turn anyway. That said, hojo hand mortars are infinitely better.
One thing you could do to improve rockets and artillery is to have a hunting lodge and a fletcher building. It substantially improves their accuracy. I tried this playing as the otomo and used a gunpowder play style with rockets and artillery. Then you can finish them off with yari cav and some naginata. It's a slightly heavy investment, but it is totally worth it ;)
I learned how bad fire bomb throwers are the hard way. I mean it make sense, incredibly realistic and I considered it before recruiting them but I can't believe friendly fire is on lol. Their boat counterpart was a little better. Anyway thanks to this vid now I got new use for them as siege defense. Yes they're costly but I love how bombs just demolish a 100 man army and like 10-20 surviving men in that army get demoralized. Tbh they're number 2, mangonels are still 1. Cannons for me are great but they're number 3
Katana Cavalry used to be very good but there was an exploit where you can just rout every enemy infantry with simply running over them, so it got nurfed (or rather, the cav mechanics got changed, and made routing of infantry by cavalry much harder, which disfavored Katana Cav)
You're definitely right about artillery units. Fall of the Shogun has the most effective artillery in any of the Total War Games I have played. Empire total war had terrible artillery accuracy. I really only found them useful in a tight defensive deployment with canister shot. At distance though they are utterly useless.
I know you mentioned it at the start, but yari Samurai are excellent in multiplayer for deterring cavalry charges. I've usually kept at least one in reserve
I guess that's a possibility, but I doubt that'd be worth it. You'd still need to rear charge or they'd lost to almost anything since it's only half a unit. In which case Yari Sam are better for that same purpose.
things to make these units better Yari Samurai: First of all remove katana samurai from the game. Yari Ashigaru now need the Yari Drill yard in order to be recruited. Yari Ashigaru now need Way of the Spear to be researched to use Yari wall, this means your starting yari samurai unit will become more valuable in the early campaign. Buff the stats of Yari Samurai so that they can actually serve as multi purpose infantry units. Katana Cavalry: Remove these from the game and replace them with Nagatina Cavalry as the new melee cavalry unit. Being armed with Nagatina they can preform the role of melee cavalry while still having a small anti cavalry bonus meaning they can hold their own again yari cavalry. Fire Projecting mangoles: Their accuarcy needs to be buffed so they can actually hit something. Also they need the Fall of the Samurai Third Person artillery camera mode European Cannons: European Cannon Projectiles now have Inceased Collision Radius, making it punch bigger holes in formations also each cannonball will kick up possibly-injuring pebbles everytime it bounces. Also they need the Fall of the Samurai Third Person artillery camera mode
Lol, aside from the katana cavalry, all the others are exactly the units that i boost the most whenever modding the game. Bomb throwers and fire rockets are definitely much more useful when given larger unit size and more ammo.
Honestly the matchlock units top my list. They require direct line of sight, and very often shoot your own units since their accuracy is questionable, while also being weak in melee. If they had better melee than bow units, it would make sense to put them up front as a skirmisher, but late game I'd rather opt just to use samurai bowmen since they are so effective and can fire over friendly units. The entire unit also needs to be in perfect formation to begin opening fire, and by the time they get one volley off, they are already charged down by cav. Ugh. I know this game is old, but for a mid-late game unit, matchlocks are nearly useless minus the hero and unique units from DLC.
Hence why I made a new list at some point: ruclips.net/video/W5x60C1Pzok/видео.html Not to mention the video (link in the pinned comment) I made a week after this video talking about how Fire Rockets were a mistake in this list.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP Hence why I said looking back. But I also more of cared about the katana cavalry mainly cause you never did mention them in the new list if I recall. So I don’t know why you took them off.
Katana cav has it use if you pare them with yari cav. As mentioned in the vid you mainly use them against archers and charges in the back of the enemies melee. When I go for this option I'll take less archers in my army so I can sustain a good frontline with my melee. With the takeda I actually beat a campaign on legendary recruiting mainly cav (after my first 2 stacks of ashigaru only cav). I think the bow ashigaru is worse. Their accuracy is just too bad (unless trained well), their armor is very bad, in melee they are worthless.
The European cannons can exploit the AI and get sick kills in offensive sieges, but again, it relies on you having decided to build a stack that you plan on using in lots of offensive sieges. Basically if you blow up a wall with European cannons while the enemy is standing on it, you can kill about half of that unit. Although European cannons don't have exploding shot, the walls are apparently stacked with powder and send the enemy flying anyway. In other words, hilarious when playing with a friend and not trying too hard to win. Not something you'd use in Legendary.
The European cannons never came of as that bad to me. Gunpowder weapons in general are pretty good in Shogun 2. And I found them surprisingly accurate compared to Empire: Total War. And even though he throws around the word excrement and such. Shogun's units come of as much more balanced than Rome or Warhammer. Where the contrast between best and worst is pretty huge.
Canons are good, if you are ottomo and you have moved your nanban port north for gold tier accuracy. Than canons perform very well. In my experience battles works like set up on the hill, let your canons and terco sloughter your opponents and finish them off with naginatas and yari cav. Canons with bonus aim have doubled accuracy and remember your terco benefit from this upgrade as well. I state it again. You have to play as ottomo. I wouldn't bother otherwise.
European Cannons are amazing,litrlly they can fire 3-4 shots before the enemy comes into arrow range,by that time you could probebly nearly wipe out an entire unit of the enemy and perhaps general snipe
Not sure what kind of buffed up cannons you’re using, but the European Cannons in my game will kill about half a dozen men by the time they run out of ammo. They might have some uses, but killing things certainly isn’t 1. Maybe you’re confusing them with the cannons from Fall of the Samurai or something. Those are all fantastic, with the exception of wooden cannons.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP I fear I did not have the pleasure of playing fall of the samurai and the redicilous prince,the cannons are good for sniping enemy units from afar espacially the better ones,they can gen snipe and give you a fairly big upperhand before the enemy reaches your lines
I like fire rockets for defensive sieges and for the fun of the explosions. They can rout low morale units and damage good ones. I think samurai archers are worst than them. Samurai archers are usually outclassed by every other bow in the cost effectiveness area.
Lora-lol-a-lol. Generally, when reffering to Total war artillery of any discription: I reffer to them as ' hope missles ' and not usually in a prefferable context. Awesome channel. /Bio.
Rockets are not units supposed to hold their ground in skirmish or combat. They are a siege unit and fairly great at that. With higher range than bowmen, they can harras everything inside the castle, take down few defending bowmen units before your own skirmishers move forward to kill the rest - after all your ammo is depleted, send the infantry to siege the beaten garrison down with absolute ease. They are more accurate than other siege units and have absolutely ravaging damage - you don't want to send them to fight skirmish with bow units in the open field - you want to keep them back behind your own infantry.
Mangonels with their range can force an opponent into charging or leaving a favourable position. You don't need many, one is usually enough to trick the ai. Real players will too sometimes.
Well, fire rocket is ideal in siege. Once I took down Kyoto with only fire rockets, zero casualty. As the matter of fire bomb, they are really good when u have to defend your Castle.
Big difference between single and multiplayer. Yari sam are very important in multiplayer. The worst multiplayer units are hero units because the small size means they insta die to any matchlock volley.
What does Armor actually do in SHogun 2? I made a mod where I had SHimazu Katana Samurai, with a +Armor shop which I modded up to like +6 or +8 armor. I think in the end, my guys had like 12 or 14 armor, up from their base like 6 or something, and still got annihilated usually. And yeah, I tried the siege weapons once....and only once. I think I immediately sold them. They couldnt be deployed in range(And couldnt move), they couldnt even hit the castle and didnt have jack shit for ammo....... I typically use Katana Cavalry as well, and yeah, I notice they dont do very well.
@Thelondonbadger Yeah, I noticed the camping AI. Its quite annoying, needing to kinda bait them off their pretty little hill. Allows me plenty of time to setup and plan my attack...but still...its annoying.
![YoungBoy Never Broke Again - Sneaking [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ILUps2zDFU/mqdefault.jpg)
I made an updated version of this list months ago, but it seems everyone is still watching this one instead, so if you want justice for Fire Rockets, please watch this video instead! ruclips.net/video/W5x60C1Pzok/видео.html
you linked this video at the end card of the updated version so thats why im here
you wrong Fire rocket to kill archer, katana cavary to kill samurai
but you have many archer you can kill all samurai before they come
What about justice for fire bomb throwers?
@@koldonn1111 NEVER! They don't deserve it! :P
European mangonels have one tactical advantage: if you have one in your army then the enemy _will_ attack you, even if they're supposed to be the defenders. Then again, while this can be handy it means that you have to endure the annoying decreased movement speed of the army.
Not only that, but cannons (not mangonels) are incredibly good at sniping enemy cavalry (especially generals).
Sadly they are useless in a siege.
True I hate when those buggers are sitting in the forest waiting for you to attack
+Thomas Miller Now there is one thing I love about the warscape engine, canons outright annihilate cavalry. It's quite the secene
@@thomasmiller1402
I've used them to destroy enemy towers/gates and do decent damage against archers on walls.
Yesss 👍
I use this trick too😂
I was playing as the Chosokabe.
I invade the Shimazu
The Shimazu get christianity, and thus, gunpowder
I think "bah, I can take out this army, I have a full stack elite army fully equipped with elite samurai units"
my army routs before I reach them
why?
European cannons.
bah seu gaucho de merda kkkkkkkkk
Wierd i usually play as Shimazu andi never use cannons the only thing i want when i change to christian is Nanban ship
Get some yari cav and snipe the European cannons, issue solved.
@Olavi Pajala lol wut? Are we playing the same game eu cannon never get more than 100 kills in my game
When he listed the cannons, I couldn't help but think: "Has this guy ever watched The (insert clan name) Experience series by Pilps?"
*TO THOSE STILL COMMENTING ABOUT HOW THE FIRE ROCKETS SHOULDN'T BE ON THIS LIST, I AGREE. WHICH IS WHY I MADE A VIDEO TALKING ABOUT THAT LESS THAN A WEEK AFTER THIS VIDEO WENT UP. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO GIVE THAT A WATCH IF YOU FEEL OUTRAGED AT MY DECISION.* ruclips.net/video/VsIKTX_8aoM/видео.html
also you are forgetting the hojo clan relies on the magonels and castles as there main strength they will even take entire conventions of magonel's in to field battles just to dominate them with the firepower so you got to clearify that with them and give them the European cannons watch out they are the precursers to enlightenement warfare and pre napoleon in terms of artillery.
Talk about how siege units can't even get their job done right, Lawd Jesus Christ :T
To me the worst unit is a dead unit
Haha I'm coming in a year later to see this comment. Let's see if I can guess what your video said.
The reason Fire Rockets are amazing in this game is because their defining balance characteristic is very low accuracy. Out of the volley, you can expect most of the rockets to miss. HOWEVER, by the time you gain access to Fire Rockets, very late in the tech tree, you should also have obtained max-level accuracy bonuses via the Fletcher, Archery training camp thing, and Legendary Archery Dojo. If you build Fire Rockets with max accuracy bonus, their accuracy is more than doubled and you start getting closer to 75% of the rockets hitting instead of 25%, at which point their effect is overwhelming.
Now, time to go watch your other video and see if I was right :D
LMAO Duuuude you’re sooo damn right about the mangonels and cannons.
However, let’s not forget if the others like them bec of their strategic choice or bec they want to hear the cannons go BOOM
this game is 5 years old, yet looks and plays way better than Rome 2 and Attila imo
Agreed :).
Rome 2 was a complete disaster, Looking beater than Attila that is arguable. Attila looks AMAZING, I think Attila looks beater personally.
better*
sorry but had to do it. XD
Ragna Rock your so right it's my favorite total war game.
you're*
Sorry again I had to do it XDDDDDD
Worst unit in the game s the yari ashigaru when you forget to put them in yari wall :D
Hahaha, true that. Should've put that in as an honourable mention :P.
They don't even have to be in yari wall to be effective. Just accep that they are a great unit all round because they can outflank pretty much every other unit due to their sheer numbers. For each samurai unit, you can have 2 ashigaru in the same time, and at 2/3 of their cost. Ain't that good enough?
Veteran yari ashigaru are no joke though... they can potentially be 10x stronger than their base stats
It's largely because how stats progression in this game work. Each veterancy rank give +1 to all stat, for the like of Samurai unit, that's a 10% increase or less - hardly noticeable because their initial stat is already high to begin with.
While for Ashigaru this could mean between 25% increase to 100% increase from their base stat, essentially double their effectiveness with each veterancy they gain. Take into account that upkeep cost for Ashigaru is about half to a third of Samurai, mean that you can get 2 - 3 Ashigaru for every 1 Samurai given the same upkeep. And fielding army of elite Samurai now become less appealing.
Oh, and Ashigaru army with very few Samurai is in fact historically accurate by the way.
I loved that how no matter how strong I got, Ashigaru never stopped being useful. Need quick reinforcements? Train Ashigaru. Want to bulk out your army? Get Ashigaru. Cheap anti-cavalry? Ashigaru will beat horsemen who cost way more than them. Budget strained because of so many wars? Ashigaru are dirt cheap. Storming a castle and need something to take arrow fire for your unarmored monks? Ashigaru do it better than anyone. Want to overwhelm and envelop the enemy with massive numbers as you laugh in the face of casualties? Ashigaru will do it easily, especially if you play Ikko-Ikki.
Almost every army I ever used could boast at least a few Ashigaru, and they made me proud in countless battles.
"Always siege out your enemy." 40 years and a massive poem later: Would you care to check that statement?
The biggest positive that something like the cannons or the mangonels have is the ability to force the enemy to attack you. Essentially, any land battle can become a defensive fight for you and make it much easier, by allowing you to pick and choose where you can defend. Having the choice of dumping all of your archers in a wooded area, right by an open field, can completely turn a battle.
Two terrible archer units can defeat good archer units by merely getting that wood bonus. You can also create massive bonuses by picking a hill and holding it. This might be an abuse of the AI and how it works but, I think it's worth deploying very long range units for these kinds of tactics every now and again.
that's how I plan on doing it in the game and that's how I usually do it anyway play it defensive on a offencive move and win though attrition. easy enough. even with darth mod this works perfectly.
Lol, For me, attacking is the best, cuz I can make my opponent do what i want him to do.
Bow warrior monks can do the job
I had a blast using Yari Samurai on Multiplayer games though against enemies who I expect will use a heavily defensive range build like the one you like to use (nagis + bow monks)
The trick is using a small detachment of these boys to rush an opening towards their archers where you cant rush the enemy with cav because the enemy has spear protection. This relies on the enemy expecting that "ooh yari sams are one of the worst units in Shogun 2 so he wont bring any".
Likewise, this effect multiplies so many times over against FotS armies. It is difficult to stop a well timed and well placed Yari Sam charge when using a modern core. Youd be forced to reposition and the enemy could have had been anticipating this. Opening you up to further attacks.
Like so, I tend to bring two Yari Sams when I expect an enemy to bring a defensive ranged army
One time i won a game against a FOTS army that in the early game when he took the 3 key buildings, we agreed that it was a impossible game to me to win, but i winned by distracting with my bows to fight with his bows and infantry while i walked invisible on the forest with yari samurai and some yari ashigaru to support, his infantry cannot have a chance when with rapid advance, my samurai quicky attacked them by behind winning very quicky 1 unit by the time.
I find the fire rockets are actually best used as anti cavalry as the moral shock, distance from other units and the fact that a signal volley can kill half the unit cause most cavalry (even great guard) to quickly rout.
I agree, watch this. ruclips.net/video/VsIKTX_8aoM/видео.html
I can see why it is hard to make the connection that fire rockets are anti-cavalry if you mostly just play campaign. The only reason I knew about it is many surprise rocket volleys into cavalry ambushes in multiplayer.
the problem with Katana Cavalry is because there are so many infantry with anti cavalry bonus. They are excellent at fighting Katana Samurai, gunner infantry, Nodachi Samurai and bow infantry
Sadly most armies have spear units and quite a lot of them as well.
Hm... makes me want to fire up Shogun 2 again. Right after I finish my Himyar campaign. Shogun 2 has aged pretty well, in my opinion.
Even now Shogun 2 has aged well and is still the best Total War
@@lukeharman7054 its aged okay at best. Its ui and quality of life features are sorely lacking compared to warhammer 2. It used to be my favorite TW. Think i have around 600-700 hours in it. I have over double that in Warhammer 2 now tho. Ocassionally i get the itch to fire it back up and after pkaying it for 10 minutes i quickly start remembering how clunky it is compared to Warhammer 2. Having said that it is still very good and has its own charm. Other than Warhammer 2 id probably be inclined to play Shogun 2/Fall of the Samurai over any other TW thats not Warhammer.
@@MoronicChunk1 warhammer 2 is great but if you want to enjoy a quick campaign it's not great, also there's something to be said for how well balanced and streamlined shogun 2 is compared to later tw games. Not saying better, but I think it's aged incredibly well and will have a place for a long time for people like me who enjoy how much more streamlined it is
@@lukeharman7054 based off of the lack of unit variety alone it’s not the best Total War. When one army build not only works super well for one faction but for ALL of them? Far too limited to be the best. That crown probably should go to Medieval 2 IMO.
Still the only shogun I consistently play.
I only ever use fire bomb throwers and fire rockets in defensive sieges, if you're outnumbered then a few of those on the walls are all you could ask for.
Why don't you just get some matchlock Ashigaru? Much cheaper, fast recruitment, and also god tier wall defense
Yeah, fire bomb throwers have single handedly won me legendary campaigns, just by baiting the AI to throw their armies at my castle walls and I make them explode in return.
@@pypy1986820 Imo more resources getting the whole powder thing and going christian can kinda be a double edged sword
Who ever is that Japanese who said this awesome shameful display needs an Oscar
If anyone is watching this video 5 years later please know there's a withdraw button on the bottom left hand corner when doing offensive battles. That means you can attack a fortress with fire rockets, rack up hundreds of kills then withdraw suffering 0 losses. Sieging out may take longer than the available time you have.
Thank you for this, I thought I was going crazy
I don't know, for the unprepared those bombs can annihilate whole armies, they crush morale.
It's a bit more useful than granadiers from NTW with the con of being an unit
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I use a cheap "friendly fire" strategy with firebomb throwers that works surprisingly well at all stages of the game early, middle and late, and is similar to the way grenadiers work in ETW: I build an army of 9 ashigaru yari, 4 ashigaru bows, and 6 firebomb throwers. I put my ashigaru yari in spearwall just in case the enemy sends their cav head-first. Right behind mi yari lines are the bows and firebombs. I brings bows to make sure that the enemy will launch an attack shortly after peppering my army with archers. If I am confronted with a lot of bowmen, I try to pull back my firebomb throwers out of range, but not too much. Once the enemy sends the infantry or cavalry, this is when it pays off. My yari will withstand the charge, pin the enemy down, and the firebombs get to work, blasting friend and foe alike BUT doing more damage to the enemy than my own troops. After 2 to 3 salvos, the enemy infantry flees in panic, even 1 salvo if it's cavalry. I have routed katana, yari cav and generals in this way before they could cut down my ashigaru yari. Once the dust settles, I find some of my yari are in bad shape from the friendly fire, but they cost nothing, so I either let them replenish or fuse them together with another depleted unit. And you can recruit ashigaru yari in any castle on the map...
In the words of Edward "Longshanks" the 1st at the battle of Falkirk:
- Archers !
- I beg pardon, Sire, but won't we hit our own troops ?
- Yes ... but we'll hit theirs as well !
I agree most of it. but not rocket, I use it to kill the most treating unit before they reach me ,1 rocket can finish 2 units normally, and some times 3.
After finishing this video I started doubting my own decision to put them at the #3 spot. I still wouldn't value them much higher, but perhaps #5 or something, they're not as bad as I made them out to be.
but donkey, they japanese. they will gladly sacrifice their life in the blast as long the enemy is dead too.
Ahh, this brings me back to the Shogun 2 golden days when multiplayer was very populated. Katana cav definitely had a place there as a sort of niche anti-inf unit. They were tricky to use, but if employed correctly could get hundreds of kills! I remember one time, my favourite vert kat cav got over 500 kills against a loan-sword spammer! Nonetheless, yari cav was my favourite unit in the whole game. So versatile and really benefited from heavy micro. Sorry for the ramble, but I sometimes come across these shogun 2 videos and get all nostalgic for Shogun 2 haha :) I sure do miss those prime multiplayer days when the community was extremely active.
JELLOPICKLE you should start playing again, Shogun 2 just recently went free for a week. There are many new players and I believe it’s acting as a sort of renaissance for the game.
@@juicynarwal6272 Can confirm, I'm a player from that free event. My first campaign as Oda is still ongoing...
@@boxcarz It’s been a year but I can still find a game in under a minute a lot of the time. Even in naval battles, so it seems the game is still affected from that boost of players from last year.
Wait, what? I almost always do castle assaults rather than sieging the enemy out, and rarely lose more than 50 men if that?
Aren't fire rockets used to stop cavalry charges though?
back when I played they could one shot a general in mp if they hit right (more often then not)
Thisname Isnotfake that's what I thought. It would be pretty good playing against Takeda in solo I'm guessing
Nihilvidz Ive played a unlimited ammunition mod and Fire Rockets are probably the best in that.
YES. They actually do that. I've actually seen that happen. I was doing a land battle at Osaka Plain and my Mori clan enemy was doing a cavalry charge. My fire rockets fired and routed them in one volley. European cannons have a similar ability against cavalry.
It's because cavalry don't get up if they get knocked over, they just die.
I really love mangonels because they can kill a lot of enemy unit from far range, i always use mangonels on field battle, they are accurate on targeting the ground but not targeting the unit, thats why if u target the enemy unit by using the mangonels, it will try to shoot the side of the unit to make it unaccutate
I've found that two or three Mangonels make a great addition to your forces when on the defensive side of a siege. I never get more than two and sometimes only one because they have such limited ammo. However, they can just obliterate large numbers of enemies as they're coming at your walls.
Case in point: I once defended a castle from my brother during a lan party. Part of our rules were that the defender got nearly half the credits of the attacker. He sent every single one of his melee units directly at my front while flanking with ranged units and a single cavalry unit.
I lost a few archers but his melee units were completely destroyed by Mangonel fires. After the initial attack my Mangonels were out of ammo so I dropped the engines and had the crews help with mopping up the rest of my brother's units. It was pretty easy after that. LoL :)
All of this information is wrong, katana cav are a great unit, having 1 or 2 in your army allows you to make effective mobile hammers to quickly route archers while your yari cav charges from behind, katana cav is also very important if you're playing as Takeda because most of the opponents army will route whenever shingen comes near them, thus you might sustain heavy losses and still might have to deal with another big army, katana cav will kill a lot more routing enemies than general or yari cav.
This guy has already made a video apologizing for fire rockets, yari samurai are a great unit for charging into archer lines first or you may lose your ashigaru to bows, naginatas are too slow for this job so having 1 or 2 units of yari can be helpful if you dont have katana cav, yari sam also dont suffer from cavalry damage since the AI always tends to keep a unit of yari near the archer line, Sieging the opponent out is not always an option you may need to secure the province and direct your army elsewhere.
oooooooohhhhhhh.... now i understand why i used to lose all the time with my "yari samurai as the only anti-cav" army! they suck! i disagree a bit with the european cannons tho
How come you disagree with the European Cannons?
oooooooooooopps sorry for the late response! i think that, yes the cannons are bad in the field i know that, but they once saved my life in siege battles by killing their archers. But again, its very situational and its best to siege them out! thats why i used the "a bit"
The only times I'll risk a castle assault is when I have the advantage in skirmishers, early game this can be easy since they start with samurai retinue making it easy for two units of bow ashigaru to clean up. But once they get more than two skirmishers then I get hesitant. Usually after that you'll either have to outnumber their skirmishers three to one to safely assault, but otherwise you'll have to bear the casualties.
European cannons are powerful against cavalry in land battles. And unlike their mangonel counterparts, the cannons are not operated by storm troopers which means that they are VERY accurate. They can demolish enemy cavalry.
Well, I'm not playing on legendary but I actually do offensive sieges quite often. After beating all the enemy troops into a pulp in a field battle, I'll just leave the samurai retainers to my archers
"If you're fighting offensive sieges, you're doing it wrong."
Not at all. Siege battles are the most fun battles. Well worth sacrificing a good portion of the army for that reason alone. Besides, if they've only got a small garrison, the siege will last too long and the cost of an assault will be fairly minor. Of course, in that case, there'd be little need for those rockets, except for the fun of it.
I feel like if you have 60:40 odds or better, a siege attack can be well worth the saved time. As I've played more I've started to use castle counters a lot (Ninja sabotage gates, bow monk archers, high armor/morale infantry), and when you bring these strategies into a siege, it's a lot more fun.
it is idiot to use katana cav (kc) to fight any yari troops, except dismounting.
1/ We can use kc to charge on enemy's back side.
2/ its worth when fighting against enemy's sword troops and bow troops especially.
3/ When dismounting, it become valuable to fight any kind of melee troops
e.g: with 1 samurai retainer and 2 kc, we can gain a heroic victory against 3 bow ashigaru & 4 yari ashigaru. Charging on their bow and dismounting when facing yari.
I appreciate your disclosure that you play on harder difficulty. Me and my friends mostly play for fun at lower levels, so I like some of these units. Not sure why people are getting angry at your opinion considering that the opinions of skilled players are very welcome and useful.
I read that fire rockets are extremely effective in ambushes. It's rare though and not easy to pull off.
I love the yari samurai. They do tend to suffer heavy losses, fold back on themselves and flee in prolonged hand to hand combat, but they are really effective when intercepting cavalry charging your bow units. Unlike the naginata, they have the 'charge' special ability.
I would take the katana cavalry (even when you don't play the Takeda) out of the list, though I agree it should never be the only cavalry unit you use. It is probably the most effective way to take out experienced katana and bow samurai (mostly in a single player when the AI can have more experienced troops and generals by you). Just keep it away from spears and other cavalry (except for the general units). Even in a bad place, the katana cavalry can survive significantly longer and deal significant casualties on bow and swords. Dismounted katana cavalry can produce good results in certain situations as they are a few but very competent swordsmen.
That being said, I almost lost a general by a mangonel fire. In addition, if your army moves in several lines, mangonel fire is annoying. I hate that unit though as it is relies on a lucky shot so let it rot on the first place. :P European cannons at least have some use for a siege.
Seriously you haven't seen what those units' advantages and where you should position them. Most of the units you talked about are not frontline units, you can't expect been good at the frontline...
The only ones I agree are the mangonel and the cannon. Seriously, I tried to hit huge immobile units or walls and well... not good...
European cannons have shit timing I can walk around the universe and come back and they still haven't fired
Katana Cavs are good against all other units of its tier except Yari Ashigaru and other cavs, anything else it just butcher's.
I wanted to say this as well. Only fools use katana cav to charge other cav, lose the fight then complain "worst and useless unit"
Eh, I feel like they could be a good alternative to traditional katana samurai serving as just a much more mobile front line when protected by yari cav, but would require much more micro than I would be willing to put up with.
I might like to use them as a sort of primative mechanized infantry where they use their horses to quickly get to a place on the battlefield and then dismount them to use them like regular samurai with the option to pull back, remount, and reposition to another area or to handle range heavy armies since that's all mounted katana samurai seem good for.
Wow can't believe it's been a year.
@@giantdad1661 wow can't believe its been 3 years
I'm sad to see Katana Cavalry here. :'(
you can use katana cav as mounted katana samuari, move into one position then dismount
Fan Yechao i use them to massacre bow infantry and katana infantry while using the spear cavalry to distract the enemy spear cavalry so that they won't reach my katana cavalry.
Cause he doesn't know how to use them. They need to be dismoutned to be usefull.
true, I actually won a campaign as Takeda where i had 3 Yari cav and 10 Katana cav, yari cav would deal with enemy cav, and katana cav can deal with anything else. if they have
fx 5 spear units you just dismount 5 katana. have another 5 katana cavs to deal with archers and katana infantry. Not very economically good, but i could take on anything with ease
Katana cav is great. Very mobile so you can reach the enemy infantry and bows quickly. They make quick work of anything in their path. Their only weakness is a head on spear charge and obviously if you are doing that you should probably not play this game lol
and that's why I put my fire rockets at the back of my army not just straight up in front of my men.
I found that when playing single player you ALWAYS want to play the siege, not because you'll get any advantage but because the AI is terrible when it comes to defending a castle. It's entirely possible to take Kyoto within 3 turns if you play the guys close to them, and trick the AI during the siege
it also depends on how you use the units. I keep my firebomb throwers in a thick forest and immediately run away after they throw (if the enemy dispatches units to get rid of them) then I come back later once the fight's more developed and they don't have as much to divert
I heavily disagree with what you say about the cannons. You could position cannons on a slope, cliff, or hill and use the higher ground to your advantage. *However, I do understand that unlike Artillery in other Total War games such as Napoleon or Medieval II (which I have more experience with than the Artillery of Shogun II),* you can not reposition the Mangonels and European Cannons once they are deployed into battle and most artillery in other Total War games can be repositioned besides the Giant Ballista in Rome II and some units of artillery in Empire. *One problem that I should also address is that cavalry could possibly attempt to neutralise your artillery from behind or the sides whilst hiding, or enemy artillery can target yours and destroy it.*
All related to cavalry can have another point of view:
1. If your army have only horsemen - it moves to much longer distances on the global map, so you need there mounted archers, spears and some katanas aswell for the castles.
2. In combat - Katana cavalry can (Dismount) as all else cavalry, so it transforms into Katana Samurai if needed. (with posibility to mount again for mobility). Cavalry is faster than infantry so if u see someone rushing to you - just drag them away and deal with them outside area of their general, in this case they flee much faster just after few casualities. (If you don't like micro control - you can just run to the forest&dismount&engage the incoming enemy spearmen (just wait for them in the trees, the enemy charge bonus will be significantly reduced).
Also the "charging tactic" is very easy performed by those mounted swordsmen (better than
the light cavalry even if those ones have bigger charge stats), the Katana Samurai have better close combat defence so attack the infantry from behind (even spear ones) and instantly recall your horses back to the way they came, before the enemy will get up moust of your horses will be away, you can lose none or some troops, but after they go out of combat you can charge again, in moust of cases 2 charges are enough to make enemy infantry flee (if they're dragged away from the enemy generals), the charge strike make massive damage and you dont need to keep the horses in the long combat.
3. Assaulting castles against AI is the easiest way to conquer&save your troops, there are a lot of ways to take castles without much losses, even against much bigger armies, remember - AI is dumb, all archers can be gathered at oposite walls (they move where is all your army) and kept there just by a single asigaru squad out of enemy fire range and not hidden. The rest is just a tactic. Ignite gates or climb&capture them after your archers will fire all arrows, Even with one Yari samurai at the begin of the game you can take fast many castles at the legend dificulty level, before your tech will grow.
Katana cav (Takeda)=offensive siege, better katana samurai on foot (against spear units should be on foot anyways) against sword units should be on horse back. Have superior maneuverability than any infantry.
The case of katana cav is just a case of a unit used wrong.
Obviously very late but definitely disagree with the fire rockets and european cannons/magonels.
Your whole assertion that you should never be doing an offensive siege is just awful. In theory, starving out the enemy might make sense, but in the game you'll pretty much be giving your enemy ample time to form an army to hunt you down. This is especially noticeable on legendary, where the a.i. get to spawn free units every turn, and in general have way more unit production. You should always be trying to finish sieges as quick as possible, so that you become the defender and get the units.
This also leads to your misconceptions about mangonels, cannons and fire rockets. Having 5 mangonels/cannons in an army can absolutely delete any castle with 20 units in it. You dont aim at the towers, but at the walls/ramparts, which are much easier to destroy and easier to hit. If you're concerned about movement speed and accuracy, I usually keep them in a secondary army with a general focusing on campaign map range. They follow along, staying out of field battles, and then help wipe out castles in sieges. Your points about vulnerability make no sense since they should either be way out of range or behind some other units (who will attract a.i. fire since thats how they work.)
First of all, I made a video rectifying my mistake regarding Fire Rockets, they shouldn't have been in this list
a good list
the only ones that don't apply in MP are 1 (only the mangonels) and 3 and 1 only in MP sieges where you're the attacker, mostly because they'll kill enemy units in the castle.
As you said in SP playing offensive sieges is dumb. But in MP the fact of bringing siege units will force players (with their precious few defender units) away from walls, giving you free access to the first wall set (since almost all MP sieges are on Ari castle)
fire rockets are useful in MP field battles because it forces an attack but weather or not thats worth the cost of them depends on the setup of the game and your opponent, many players will gladly let you shoot fire rockets at weak units (ashigaru and naginata levy) if they are in a good position, or simply rush your 1000 koku weaker army before the fire rockets can earn they're value
There is this guy in youtube " PILPS " HE obliterated the HOJO Campaign in legendary difficult using Hand Rocket and European Cannon as his main army.
One thing I will say about the artillery (I agree they're hardly worth the effort) is that you can construct a separate siege train to follow behind the main army, so the reduced movement doesn't affect you as much- that practice alone doesn't make them worth fielding, but it does alleviate one of their bigger tactical weaknesses.
It does though, it might not literally make your main army slower, but if you want to use them in battle, you'll still have to wait for them to reach, so you're dealing with the same problem regardless.
*****
Typically speaking your main army is stopping to maintain order in recently conquered provinces, in my experience at least they've been able to keep pace with relatively minimal delays.
What you're saying doesn't make sense though. If they're keeping pace anyway, then why not put them in the main army to begin with. It doesn't matter if they're in your first, second, or 50th stack, if you want to use them in battles, they will have to stay in reinforcement range of your main army, which means your main army has to slow down to make sure they can keep up, meaning you're still limited to their movement range.
***** What I mean is, the couple of turns the main army spends waiting in a town you're sieging or have just sieged and are controlling the populace gives the siege train time to catch up for when you're setting up for the main sieges on clan strongholds. From a realistic and thematic perspective you don't need the siege weapons to be there for every minor town, so long as they're there for the major fortresses.
The mangonels are great at killing your own units because of potato accuracy
Fun thing while firing at the enemy they hit near ro none, when i forgot where i had them aim, they perfectly hit my own men killing quite a lot of them with one hit.
HALF THE TIME THEY CATN EVEN REACH THE WALLS IN SEIGES
Aaaaah mangonels love the range hate the accuracy. Also the reason why I use up their ammo first before letting my men charge. Use up a lot of time but atleast no friendly fire
I agree with every part. Just to add, the problem with low accuracy of the magnonels can be easily solved (or at least lowered) by hiring them in a province with Master Bowmaker and Hunting Lodge. Than they can be useful.
agree for singleplayer. for multiplayer however, katana cav were excellent where you need the mobility to reach the non-spear infantry (katanas, bows, and matchlocks were popular last time i played), and you could just leave them there to chew up the enemy and to micro other units unlike the yari cav which you needed to micro for repeat charges. yari samurai were my favourite- they were niche picks but they were the cheapest high morale units that could hold the line and could respond very quickly to flanking enemies. while infantry was always the core of the battle, the player that was better at cavalry micro and anti-cav defense usually won
I've actually had a fair bit of luck with offensive sieges. I tend to move in 1 or 2 full sized armies, starve the enemy until winter arrives, storm the place with barrages of ranged attacks sometimes combined with follow-up melee attacks from all directions.
Great list, and agreed mostly. Looking forward to RotS and FotS if you're doing those as well.
fire Bombers of the hojo can actually be very good in defensive and also in offenive battles. my battle order is normaly 2 fire bombers up front yari ashigaruh then and in the back archers. In the case of an defense battle, you wait until the enemy attacks and trows a row of bombs in retreat the Yaris can figth. in offensive battles it is similar, you combat units directly behind your fire Bombers and after the first row attack. in certain situations they can fuck up the archers of the enemy too if you get them there.
i've used the cannons/mangonels pretty successfully in shogun 2.
get them on a hill during a siege and target a wall and wipe out an entire unit on said wall, works everytime.
never had issues with accuracy, just reload time.
I agree with the mangonels, which is why I always take two for my sieging army. I just sit back and occasionally correct their area of bombardment. The benefit of having two and an enemy too stupid to spread his units apart is that, even if you miss, you'll still hit something.
I disagree for the fire rockets though. They're one of the best units I've ever played and they're incredibly fun to use. If the enemy attacks me then I let the rockets shoot 'em up, facilitating bracing for my infantry behind them. Then my archers can slice them even more and my infantry engages. It's even better when you get into melee, because while you're enemy is busy trying to get through your line, you can use your rockets to blow up any archers in the back lines. Of course, you can always bait them since, as you said, fire rockets are primarily targeted. So while your opponents keeps trying to shoot them with their archers, your own get to take easy potshots.
Can argue about fire rockets:
in a hit-n-run situation they can fire a deadly burst on their enemy, especially if there is dense infantry and cav in it's ranks.
running right after the burst will get them out of reach, and they will remain very useful firing from behind after the infantry clash happens. it is one of my fav units.
Check the top comment on this video, I made a new video about a week after this video went up saying I made a mistake placing Fire Rockets in this list.
Oh, i haven't noticed that :)
A good video indeed. Thanks for doing the great content!
I'd have to disagree a bit on the Mangonels. While I personally haven't used the Cannons yet, the Mangonels are essentially good to hit the troops behind the fortifications. I've explicitly read that, since the japanese castles are laid out this way, the siege weapons were less about hitting structures and more about hitting the bunched soldiers behind them. I've used Mangonels in my Shimazu campaign and, in offensive desperate sieges, they're really good at scaring units or just flatout demolish part of their numbers before your soldiers arrive on the walls. Granted, I wouldn't use them in any land battle and will only use them situationally, but they do have their own uses.
Did you not see their accuracy in the video, even when aiming them at bunched up stationary units behind a wall they'll miss a ton of their shots. You could see in the video when trying to hit a gate which was actually fairly close to them, they only his about a 4th of their shots, and even when they do hit, their damage isn't anything spectacular. A single unit of Bow Warrior Monks also outranges the opponent behind a wall and will do much more damage. On top of that, as I said in the video, don't fight offensive sieges, you can siege enemies out in just a few turns and it's always worth it, another downside of the Mangonels is having to drag them with you slowing down your campaign movement a ton.
A more important question is, with what you've said, where would you have placed them, would they even be on the list? Or are you just saying they're not as bad as I said, but you'd still leave them on the number 1 spot?
Well, yeah, they are pretty bad in general since we're speaking of versatility. Siege weapons are always situational as they focus on a small part of the game. So they definitely belong on top of the list; its just that they do have their uses which I thought I could point out.
Speaking of the accuracy - I think they're meant to do that. Not only catapults are in general hit and miss, but their explosive shots can scatter bunched infantry. Since the A.I. is pretty dumb, it won't try to evade the hits. But the question regarding using mangonels basically sums to: Do the enemies have a lot of units that bunch up together? (You wouldn't use a mangonel against a single samurai retainer unit, if you even choose to fight that battle and not autoresolve). In the same sense, being able to take out around 10-15 soldiers of any given unit without any repercussion whatsoever seems pretty fine, with the added bonus of morale hit and being able to spread fire to all joined fortifications. So, in short, see them as anti-infantry in sieges as opposed to anti-castle.
Again, this is assuming that the mangonels are in perfect conditions, which most often they aren't. And these small bonuses are often dwarfed by other, better units, like Bow Warrior Monks as you said.
It's also pretty funny watching some dudes scatter by well placed mangonel shots.
Anyways, cheers and thanks for another great video, loving the Tokugawa series so far!
I appreciate your well written arguments, it's nice being able to have a discussion like adults for once. I will admit that in the situation you described, they would probably serve their use, but indeed, as you also said, other units can fill a similar job, and do it just as well, if not better. With the added bonus of being useful in many other situations as well rather than only in one specific scenario.
i remember playing 1 campagin a long time ago and I decided to have some fun by building an army full of mangols. i would always reinforce it ofc. i would blow a whole army to hell before sieging. super fun to play especially when a large army is cramped in a small town. However not really viable playing harder than hard.
For fire rockets and cannons... recruit them in a providence that gives max +accuracy to ranged units. Buzen, Hoki, Echizen and Hitachi with a hunting lodge. I do this all the time with firerockets and they own.
i always found the katana cav to be AMAZING, what you do is that you have 4 yari cav( or even ligth cav) and 4-6 katan cavalry, you charge the enemys cav with youre yarri (or ligth) first soaking up the enemys charge with theam and giving theam youres then you charge in youre katan cavalry who will brutally murder the enemys cav with thiere high attack (its base is 18 vs the yarris 1 defence)
then you can EASILY wipe the floor with any enemy katan infatry or even spear infatry all you need to do is dismount and hey you have a katan infatry unit (all be it all small number of theam) Naginata samuria will be a problem though since you need a good (dismounted) charge to win that figth or a bit of vetrancy
“But Donkey”, I say, “Sitting on the campaign map and never fighting an offensive siege battle is *_fucking boring_* .”
I’m just messing around, to be clear. But it’s still a little fun seeing enemies fly fifty feet in the fucking air off their castles when hit with artillery.
"Always siege out your enemy"
Plays Shogun 2 and fights with NO honor.
There is one good use I had with the fire rockets, in my campaign I would have an army for field battles that would protect my secondary army which was entirely bow warrior monks and fire rockets, doing this I was able to pull off offensive sieges where as I killed the entire garrison over and over with just range units without losing any men. This is of course a fairly limited use and requires a beefy army to protect it though
I'd say fire rockets are Amazing when besieging the enemy and on large field battles, but I only get them when having upgraded accuracy because of the misfire chance. Never had an issue with Letting them get killed. I say you have to do some offensive sieges to avoid winter, blitz the enemy rather than letting them prepare and because the enemy usually sallies forth on the very last turn anyway. That said, hojo hand mortars are infinitely better.
One thing you could do to improve rockets and artillery is to have a hunting lodge and a fletcher building. It substantially improves their accuracy. I tried this playing as the otomo and used a gunpowder play style with rockets and artillery. Then you can finish them off with yari cav and some naginata. It's a slightly heavy investment, but it is totally worth it ;)
I learned how bad fire bomb throwers are the hard way. I mean it make sense, incredibly realistic and I considered it before recruiting them but I can't believe friendly fire is on lol. Their boat counterpart was a little better. Anyway thanks to this vid now I got new use for them as siege defense. Yes they're costly but I love how bombs just demolish a 100 man army and like 10-20 surviving men in that army get demoralized. Tbh they're number 2, mangonels are still 1. Cannons for me are great but they're number 3
Katana Cavalry used to be very good but there was an exploit where you can just rout every enemy infantry with simply running over them, so it got nurfed (or rather, the cav mechanics got changed, and made routing of infantry by cavalry much harder, which disfavored Katana Cav)
Mori wako pirates are underrated man.
They can ambush, then engage your enemies long enough for your main troops to arrive.
You're definitely right about artillery units. Fall of the Shogun has the most effective artillery in any of the Total War Games I have played. Empire total war had terrible artillery accuracy. I really only found them useful in a tight defensive deployment with canister shot. At distance though they are utterly useless.
I know you mentioned it at the start, but yari Samurai are excellent in multiplayer for deterring cavalry charges. I've usually kept at least one in reserve
ashigaru spears do the same, but better as they have their spear-wall, while the yari samurai don't
Didnt play for ages, and then mostly FOTS, but dont Yari Samurai have rapid advance? That would help them in mp I guess
eurropean cannon are great for siege take down gate and towers with ease
This may be just me, but I thought the point of Katana Cavalry was like dragoons. You move them to a position, then dismount and attack on foot.
I guess that's a possibility, but I doubt that'd be worth it. You'd still need to rear charge or they'd lost to almost anything since it's only half a unit. In which case Yari Sam are better for that same purpose.
things to make these units better
Yari Samurai: First of all remove katana samurai from the game. Yari Ashigaru now need the Yari Drill yard in order to be recruited. Yari Ashigaru now need Way of the Spear to be researched to use Yari wall, this means your starting yari samurai unit will become more valuable in the early campaign. Buff the stats of Yari Samurai so that they can actually serve as multi purpose infantry units.
Katana Cavalry: Remove these from the game and replace them with Nagatina Cavalry as the new melee cavalry unit. Being armed with Nagatina they can preform the role of melee cavalry while still having a small anti cavalry bonus meaning they can hold their own again yari cavalry.
Fire Projecting mangoles: Their accuarcy needs to be buffed so they can actually hit something. Also they need the Fall of the Samurai Third Person artillery camera mode
European Cannons: European Cannon Projectiles now have Inceased Collision Radius, making it punch bigger holes in formations also each cannonball will kick up possibly-injuring pebbles everytime it bounces. Also they need the Fall of the Samurai Third Person artillery camera mode
Lol, aside from the katana cavalry, all the others are exactly the units that i boost the most whenever modding the game. Bomb throwers and fire rockets are definitely much more useful when given larger unit size and more ammo.
Honestly the matchlock units top my list. They require direct line of sight, and very often shoot your own units since their accuracy is questionable, while also being weak in melee. If they had better melee than bow units, it would make sense to put them up front as a skirmisher, but late game I'd rather opt just to use samurai bowmen since they are so effective and can fire over friendly units. The entire unit also needs to be in perfect formation to begin opening fire, and by the time they get one volley off, they are already charged down by cav. Ugh. I know this game is old, but for a mid-late game unit, matchlocks are nearly useless minus the hero and unique units from DLC.
Looking back. This was a odd list in terms of worst units. I mean, you had katana cavalry and fire rockets in here for crying out loud.
Hence why I made a new list at some point: ruclips.net/video/W5x60C1Pzok/видео.html
Not to mention the video (link in the pinned comment) I made a week after this video talking about how Fire Rockets were a mistake in this list.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP Hence why I said looking back. But I also more of cared about the katana cavalry mainly cause you never did mention them in the new list if I recall. So I don’t know why you took them off.
Katana cav has it use if you pare them with yari cav. As mentioned in the vid you mainly use them against archers and charges in the back of the enemies melee. When I go for this option I'll take less archers in my army so I can sustain a good frontline with my melee. With the takeda I actually beat a campaign on legendary recruiting mainly cav (after my first 2 stacks of ashigaru only cav). I think the bow ashigaru is worse. Their accuracy is just too bad (unless trained well), their armor is very bad, in melee they are worthless.
The European cannons can exploit the AI and get sick kills in offensive sieges, but again, it relies on you having decided to build a stack that you plan on using in lots of offensive sieges. Basically if you blow up a wall with European cannons while the enemy is standing on it, you can kill about half of that unit. Although European cannons don't have exploding shot, the walls are apparently stacked with powder and send the enemy flying anyway.
In other words, hilarious when playing with a friend and not trying too hard to win. Not something you'd use in Legendary.
The European cannons never came of as that bad to me. Gunpowder weapons in general are pretty good in Shogun 2. And I found them surprisingly accurate compared to Empire: Total War. And even though he throws around the word excrement and such. Shogun's units come of as much more balanced than Rome or Warhammer. Where the contrast between best and worst is pretty huge.
*Reads title*
*Expects Yari Samurai to be on the list*
Completed this game a few weeks ago and won the entire campaign with motly only ashigeru units as Oda
Canons are good, if you are ottomo and you have moved your nanban port north for gold tier accuracy. Than canons perform very well. In my experience battles works like set up on the hill, let your canons and terco sloughter your opponents and finish them off with naginatas and yari cav. Canons with bonus aim have doubled accuracy and remember your terco benefit from this upgrade as well. I state it again. You have to play as ottomo. I wouldn't bother otherwise.
European Cannons are amazing,litrlly they can fire 3-4 shots before the enemy comes into arrow range,by that time you could probebly nearly wipe out an entire unit of the enemy and perhaps general snipe
Not sure what kind of buffed up cannons you’re using, but the European Cannons in my game will kill about half a dozen men by the time they run out of ammo. They might have some uses, but killing things certainly isn’t 1. Maybe you’re confusing them with the cannons from Fall of the Samurai or something. Those are all fantastic, with the exception of wooden cannons.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP I fear I did not have the pleasure of playing fall of the samurai and the redicilous prince,the cannons are good for sniping enemy units from afar espacially the better ones,they can gen snipe and give you a fairly big upperhand before the enemy reaches your lines
Fire bomb throwers were so aggravating to use in the 1 seige i had them for. They couldn't even take out an archer tower!
Well yeah, they're terrible in offensive sieges, but amazing in defensive sieges.
European cannons are great when they have some experience
I like fire rockets for defensive sieges and for the fun of the explosions. They can rout low morale units and damage good ones. I think samurai archers are worst than them. Samurai archers are usually outclassed by every other bow in the cost effectiveness area.
Firebomb throws are when I don't have enough time to build a army to defend off an evading army, If I can't beat them, I'll take them with me
Lora-lol-a-lol. Generally, when reffering to Total war artillery of any discription: I reffer to them as ' hope missles ' and not usually in a prefferable context. Awesome channel. /Bio.
European mangonels. hilarious.
Rockets are not units supposed to hold their ground in skirmish or combat. They are a siege unit and fairly great at that. With higher range than bowmen, they can harras everything inside the castle, take down few defending bowmen units before your own skirmishers move forward to kill the rest - after all your ammo is depleted, send the infantry to siege the beaten garrison down with absolute ease.
They are more accurate than other siege units and have absolutely ravaging damage - you don't want to send them to fight skirmish with bow units in the open field - you want to keep them back behind your own infantry.
Just check the pinned comment please...
I hide fire bomb throwers in the forest and then out flank once the air clumps up all their units
Fire rockets have now been buffed that i just cant have not getting them in my regular army.
Fire Rockets are dope: they can blow off the Morale of the entire army if used at the right moment of the battle.
Try the pinned comment.
Mangonels with their range can force an opponent into charging or leaving a favourable position. You don't need many, one is usually enough to trick the ai. Real players will too sometimes.
Well, fire rocket is ideal in siege. Once I took down Kyoto with only fire rockets, zero casualty. As the matter of fire bomb, they are really good when u have to defend your Castle.
Big difference between single and multiplayer. Yari sam are very important in multiplayer. The worst multiplayer units are hero units because the small size means they insta die to any matchlock volley.
Liked both top 5s on the units. Can you maybe do a top 5 clan specific units?
I will likely do a Top 5 DLC units at some point. Or maybe I will do clan specific and hero units separately, not sure yet.
That's unfortunate. I really like using artillery in total war games, and I just started a shogun campaign.
Fire bombers are pretty effectiv when used behind one line of Yari-Ashigaru. Let the enemy creat a bloob and soon you have to rethink you list.
I've heard that a few times but I still think they're far too niche and expensive for what they are.
What does Armor actually do in SHogun 2? I made a mod where I had SHimazu Katana Samurai, with a +Armor shop which I modded up to like +6 or +8 armor. I think in the end, my guys had like 12 or 14 armor, up from their base like 6 or something, and still got annihilated usually.
And yeah, I tried the siege weapons once....and only once. I think I immediately sold them. They couldnt be deployed in range(And couldnt move), they couldnt even hit the castle and didnt have jack shit for ammo.......
I typically use Katana Cavalry as well, and yeah, I notice they dont do very well.
@Thelondonbadger Yeah, I noticed the camping AI. Its quite annoying, needing to kinda bait them off their pretty little hill. Allows me plenty of time to setup and plan my attack...but still...its annoying.
I've got to agree. Although I don't get much use out of Kisho Ninja either.
Fire rockets with help from cavarly would save me in a lot of situations more than the muskets did XD