Why Celebrate Mass AD ORIENTEM? | Fr. Gregory Pine, O.P.
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Father Pine talks about Versus Populum and Ad Orientem postures for saying Mass. He talks about why one may be used their bases in Church documents, and Why he prefers Ad Orientem.
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A priest in my area celebrates all his masses ad orientem, weekday and weekend. To help the parishioners understand and transition, he put laminated cards in the pews explaining what/why. He also gave explanations in his homilies at first. Job well done. That church is packed by the way.
That’s just like our parish. We lost some people who got mad and left over this and Latin, but we’ve more than made up for it.
@@stephenjohnson7915 Hopefully they’re still attending, just someplace else.
Annunciation DT Houston does OF and EF facing east. Compass and liturgical.
@@sandraelder1101No, it's not just the Latin. These priests are pretty explicitly telling people that if the experience Christ in the current Mass or treat Vatican II as authoritative, they are not truly Catholic. They are being told to leave, and they are leaving. I have seen the damage first-hand. GIRM 299 is clear on the free-standing altar and Holy Mother Church's preference for Mass Versus Populum is quite clear
The fuel of all heresies is believing that "we" are holier than the Church.
@@fr.billfox2961 Why does the rubric tell them to turn toward the people at certain times if they’re supposed to be versus populum the whole time? Seems like the Church has made provisions for both. Personally, I’ve never encountered a priest in my area, even the most traditionally minded, who suggested that the only valid mass is in Latin and/or ad orientem, not even the one who celebrates (with Bishop approval) the TLM. The priest I referred to in my earlier comment mostly celebrates mass (N.O.) in English or Spanish and occasionally in Latin. They explain their preferences or reasons but don’t denigrate vernacular mass or versus populum. However, there is a small group of sedevacantists in the diocese that may believe what you said.
I unknowingly went to my first ad orientem mass today (i'm traveling for work). It was beautiful. It brought tears to my eyes. It felt "right". This should be the norm in my opinion.
My priest made the change and it was transformative to the novus ordo we celebrated. AMAZING
did older members of the parish get mad over it? that would be my only fear with it
I was exploring converting to Catholicism, but I really didn’t like going to mass. Logically, I knew it didn’t matter, but it was just discouraging. I understood mass, but I just didn’t quite get it.
One day out of curiosity, I attended an Anglican ordinariate mass, which was celebrated ad orientem. Suddenly, I understood the entire dynamic of the mass, and love it.
It really does make a huge difference.
The only way to get it is to have the faith of Catholicism, specially where it concerns the Eucharistic transubstantiation into the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
If you don't believe in that then you will never understand what the mass is all about.
Regularly attend a latin mass for years since moving I attend an ordinarte mass and took my wife (then girlfriend) when I started attending church again and she converted even now she finds it odd when she sees a mass facing the people
As a young Catholic (19) I along with many of my Catholic friends around the U.S. and the world hope for Mass to be Ad Orientum and with more Latin, as the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo) intended to be.
I pray Mass goes back to Ad Orientum. There is no comparison. All should be directed to God, not us. I will only go to Ad Orientum if I have the choice
How can anyone be directed to God when you don't know what is being said because of the Latin? Scrabbling around the bilingual missal while trying to follow the prayers. No thanks from me! I much prefer English masses!!
@@lynncw9202 The rubrics for the Novus Ordo allows and encourages the use of (liturgical) Latin as well as Gregorian chant.
It's not an either-or proposition. We/you can have Ad Orientem while continuing to say basically every prayer and response in English. The only thing different is orientation.
One of the churches near me exclusively celebrates Ad Orientem. A large part of that is there's only the high altar due to a general lack of space.
*ad orientem
@@lynncw9202 If you went to a Spanish Mass would that not be directed toward God because you don't know what's being said? you learn the language over time. also if you know the Mass, you will know what's being said even when you can't directly translate what you're hearing.
Also, the point was that the Mass is offered to God, not to you. So no one needs to hear what the priest says, strictly speaking, except God.
For us in the East Syriac rite (SyroMalabar Catholic), the altar represents the "throne of God", and so ad orientem makes sense. As we are all facing God/heaven. The priest representing the congregation makes his way to the Throne (altar) to offer the sacrifice. The nave where the people stand represents the earth. So ad orientem just makes sense.
100% Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
Father any chance you do the Novena to St Ignatius on youtube again this year?
@@bobthebuildest6828 I haven't made any new videos for it, unfortunately. But maybe I'll do some kind of livestream Ignatius Q&A. The old novena playlist is still available if you want to revisit it. Hope you are well!
All for the honor and glory of God?
@@maryannesheehy5846 toward God's greater glory
@@FrJohnBrownSJ Cardinal Cushing Boston used to say that. He said the Rosary every night on the radio and would Say that frequently. ‘All for the honor and glory of God”. I go way back at age 91 God bless you.
I have both Latin Mass and Novus Ordo churches near me and have attended both. I prefer the novus ordo Mass. I am glad both are available. It is a blessing to have a valid Mass of either tradition.
Watch Mass of the Ages video "A Perfect Storm" and learn about how the Latin Mass was torn apart in the 60's. You will find that the n.o. was based on a lie.
Just curious, but why do you prefer the NO?
@@joelpenley9791 , I feel detached in the TLM. It seems more like the Hebrew liturgy where the priest is the sole intercessor for the people. There is significantly less participation by the people, even though I’m told I am supposed to join my thoughts and intentions with those of the priest. People say they think the TLM is more holy, but I feel the sacredness in the Novus Ordo Mass as well. Plus, I hear a tone of elite snobbery of TLM attendees when they speak of the NO. This attitude seems inappropriate and lends itself to schism. It is my understanding that the TLM form of the Mass was also a NO, and is relatively young in the history of the church.
@@MCSilver the TLM was also a form of the NO? That doesn’t make sense to me. The TLM developed in the Church over a thousand years. Where as the NO was created by a small group of priests. It is my understanding that the guy in charge of creating the NO (Bugnini if I spelled it right) deceived Pope Paul VI during its creation.
I was asking because I am a convert and the only thing I knew for 20 years was the NO. But I was under the impression that the NO was just the TLM in English. When I learned they are very different, I started to look more into the TLM. When I attended my first TLM, I was completely floored by how beautiful the TLM prayers were. I don’t speak Latin and so I was lost and confuse, but I have an app on my phone with the English.
But the main reason I go to the TLM is because of the reverence shown to the Eucharist. Everyone kneels and receives in the tongue, from the priest. This is how it is supposed to be. It is actually an abuse to receive in the hand, and EMOHC are only supposed to be used when necessary.
There are other reasons but I imagine those would fall into the category of “elite”. But I think we should be giving God our best. I want Mass to be as holy as possible. It is not about us, Mass is about God.
@@joelpenley9791the ancient way of reception is on the hand. From the XVI century and forward was implemented on tonge and kneeling. What I don't like of what I read among you americans is the wrong reason to "like" tlm. The tradition as custom is fine, and gives you a sense of belonging. But Novus Ordo is as effective regarding the miracle of the eucharist. The first lords suppers were as a common supper gathering: a table and people around it. Versus populum is exactly that because Christ is the eucharist which is in front of the priest, not in the tabernacle once the bread and wine are out to be put on the altar. If people like the TLM, which I also do, is fine but the extra baggage with a side eye against NO and chearing for Vegano while he insults the Pope is not good. Now, it is true priests and the people should have more reverence, just like the NO masses when the high cleregy celebrate or even the Pope. So it can be solemn.
I totally agree I always felt Mass Ad Oreintum was more reverent
To the tune of total eclipse of the Heart… turn around padre…
🎶turrrnn arrounnd🎶
😂
Nicely done ‼️‼️🤣🤣
Thank you Fr. Pine; Continuity is all important. The Church is inherently conservative (the Truth has been given for all time), and we have to remember that through all the arguments.
Fr. Pine. The Dominicans have a MISSAL. BRING IT BACK. At least for major OP Solemnities. St. Dominic. Holy Rosary....
Sadly their order for the most part stopped celerating their own rite (since the promulgation of the Novus Ordo). Same with the Carmelites etc. To this day I do not understand why.
One idea would be to dispense with the discourse and arguments, and correctly celebrate all Masses ad orientem in the name of synodality.
How synodal?
I am not them, but I assume synodly since it means walking together, both all people doing the same thing, also maybe because ad orientum means that the Priest is in the same orientation as the people so maybe that is like synod, meaning walking together.
The only problem I would have with that, is that eastern Catholics with differences in their liturgy, while having the same belief.
On the other hand, almost all eastern Catholics celebrate ad Orientum, so it would be fitting that even with different liturgies, we all face the same direction.
I never thought of all these considerations on this one aspect of the Mass. I’ll have to listen to this again! Thank you Father, many blessings to you 🙏❤️
I’m a new convert here but I think the way we worship in Mass will have to go In Romans 14 category. Whatever we do we do it for the glory of God.
Yes, agreed. We are all on a journey, and although I attend Latin Mass regularly these last 4 years, at 50 years old most of my life has been in the new mass. The Grace I received at that time has (I hope) guided me to a more reverent form for me and my family. However, to your point I believe the pursuit of reverence is key to worship. Reverence in my opinion should always be front and center pending availability and practicality. If I lived where Latin Mass was not a available or even a proper Church to worship, I would still hope there would be a priest that could offer the most recent mass that he could so that me and my family could receive Our Lord in the most reverent way possible. It’s a difficult time to be a Catholic, but Our Lord warned us about the difficulties ahead. May God bless you on your journey, if you are seeking Gods will in your heart in love) you are in the right path (if you are seeking Gods will in your heart He will put you on the path he needs you).
Yes, agreed. We are all on a journey, and although I attend Latin Mass regularly these last 4 years, at 50 years old most of my life has been in the new mass. The Grace I received at that time has (I hope) guided me to a more reverent form for me and my family. However, to your point I believe the pursuit of reverence is key to worship. Reverence in my opinion should always be front and center pending availability and practicality. If I lived where Latin Mass was not a available or even a proper Church to worship, I would still hope there would be a priest that could offer the most recent mass that he could so that me and my family could receive Our Lord in the most reverent way possible. It’s a difficult time to be a Catholic, but Our Lord warned us about the difficulties ahead. May God bless you on your journey, if you are seeking Gods will in your heart in love) you are on the right path.
Thank you for your courage to do this video.
Just do it devoutly. Bigger problems in the church than which way the priest faces. All above my pay grade any way. He is present either way.
I think both directions have their justification. I experienced a mass celebrated Ad Orientem "by accident". I was on a pilgrimage and we celebrated a mass in a small chapel that had only a "high" altar. The readings and the gospel were read toward us and the eucharist was celebrated Ad Orientem. It was nice.
So I think, with some of the arguments using the eucharist, a combination of both would be a good compromise.
Versus Populum obscures the difference between what is for God and what is for the people.
The priest says everything facing the people.
If I had no understanding of the words and just observe objective reality, I would hear the words Lord have mercy from the priest and then hear the congregation respond Lord have mercy.
It looks like the priest is saying lord have mercy to the people and the people are saying lord have mercy back to the priest.
The dialogue appears to between people and not to be a prayer ascending to God.
Thank you Father
Father Gregory, you do such a lovely job to present all sides and arguments with clarity respect and charity, God bless ❤️
Can we just have Mass that is reverent and gives worship and adoration to God instead of a community service, please?
Unfortunately, we live in a world of imperfection. We are not lone figures in the church, we are part of a body. When I get irritated by others during mass for doing things that annoy me or are less than worshipful, I now view it as an invitation for me to look at my own temper, humility, and judgemental nature. I see my fellow congregants as people I should love, and people who challenge me are of course harder to love. But God sends us these daily challenges to bring us closer to him. Show others how to be more worshipful by example.
@InExcelsisDeo24 and its very hard watching young women walking up to Holy Communion in their swimming attire.
@@mrs.smilson5463 Think about how you can influence those young women to value thrmselves and see their bodies as holy.
I’m so Glad to find out your position father I thought you were more going with the flow kind of priest
I’m 65 and I grew up with VII changes and interpretation, I feel robed, and my children were deprived too. I know you are not talking about celebrating TLM but I’m so blessed to have found it since the plandemic thanks to my daughter who was 31 then and the only one that is seriously practicing the faith of my children, I’m praying constantly for them, also I’ll pray for your book intention today 🙏😇
I attend TLM a lot for this reason and kneeling for Holy Communion
You know you can kneel at either mass, right?
@@Hunterr8 I do. It's quite different being the only one and kneeling on the hard floor and kneeling along the altar rail with the entire people.
@@michellemcdermott2026 I find it exactly the same because it doesn't matter what others do, though, yes, I wish people *wanted to show more reverence to God.
@@Hunterr8 Amen
@@Hunterr8what about touching Christ with your non consecrated hands? Do you have an issue with that?
Liturgical East in the Eastern Churches is a wonderful thing.
Your beard is looking pretty awesome Father!
Here in the Philippines there is at least one church that is around 400 years old in every town and I have always wondered why there are no giant crosses at the altar like every modern church has. I can only guess that people then focused on the tabernacle unlike today when we are focused on the giant cross. I love all the discussion and we have a long way to go. Even as simple issue like sound system is an issue most of them are tuned for singing and not as PA so understanding the readings is also becomes a challenge
Very informative, Fr. Pine. Thank you!
My TLM faces the north. My ordinariate faces the East. My Byzantine faces the East. My NO(vp) offers the chalice. - I’m just happy to be involved :)
This is crazy coincidence. I just had my first novus ordo mass with alter rails and the Priest facing the people at the 5pm saturday mass. It was all in english. It was amazingly more beautiful than I expected. It was at St Francis of Assisi in Vancouver Canada. I will unfortunately be dissapointed next week when I go back to my standard mass next week.
Just give the priests the choice on those questions.
ST. PADRE PIO: “You must have boundless faith in the divine goodness, for the victory is absolutely certain. How could you think otherwise? Isn’t our God more concerned about our salvation than we are ourselves? Isn’t he stronger than hell itself? Who can ever resist and overcome the King of the heavens? What are the world, the devil, the flesh and all our enemies before the Lord?”
ST. PADRE PIO: “I trust Jesus so completely that even if I were so see hell open up before me, and find myself on the brink of the abyss, I should not lose confidence. I should not despair but continue to trust Him. Such is the extent to which His meekness inspires me.”
Well said Fr.!
I have begun the practice of praying facing the East.
Thank you dear father.;)
Interesting that in India there is a big upheaval …the Catholics have been told that the priest Must face the people but the 2nd part..for the Consecration Must have Ad Orientum. The ones who have been AO all this time are as freaked out as the NO are about this.
But Did We Notice? At the Eucharist Congress, the Mass offered by an Eastern Rite (name long & difficult for me) offered the Mass in exactly this way. The 4 celebrants all turned to the back altar. I didn’t hear any conversation about it.
Many Diocesan Parishes that have turned AO are becoming more common and having positive effects upon the community.
Now all they need are Communion Rails❤
Very informative. Thank you!
Thank you Farther you gave me a great meditation.
God Bless you.
One of the joys of being Byzantine, is that this isn’t even a subject of discussion or debate for us, as we still celebrate, chiefly, the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (though also St Basil the Great, and also a Lenten communion service, the Presanctified liturgy of St Gregory Dialogist, aka Pope St Gregory the Great), and were not adversely affected by the liturgical circus that the West has been victim of ever since the close of Vatican II.
Plus Liturgy of St. James twice a year.
@@DominicMazoch its being used varies widely, such where it’s rarely actually used. I’ve been attached to various Byzantine churches across the country, and I’ve only seen it done once.
I just started attending Byzantine Divine Liturgy a couple months ago and I love it! It’s so very reverent but also welcoming in an appropriate way. It’s refreshing to be away from the idea of church being a democracy.
@@kristahikes125 awesome! Welcome to the Byzantine world; I hope that you find it to be at least partly as spiritually fruitful and beneficial as me!!!
Also, assuming that you’re a fellow hiker/backpacker (“Kristahikes”😀), cheers!
My Bishop does Mass Ad Orientem at the Cathedral.
Ordinariate church member. We do 100% ad orientum.
My opinion is that if the church develops a way to be even more reverent, we should do that.
Thank you Father. This is very well detailed and helpful, I didn't actually know these things so this changes my perspective quite a bit❤
Its an apostolic tradition
And judaic
Just a thought: a priest celebrating versus populum could very easily and clearly mark and distinguish moments of dialogue (with the believers) from moments of prayer/supplication/sacrifice simply by explicitly looking forward or up, respectively. In my experience, the priest usually looks down at the altar missal anyway.
When you , Father ,teach and preach ;I bow and hear The Angelic Doctor and Jesus .
LOL and this moves your science: Joseph Campbell notes that when the minister faces the people ,the service resembles a cooking show
Liturgical Experts:
Knowing the Price of Everything
and the Value of Nothing.
Very well presented! Thx.🙏
Three Saints, three pontiffs were involved with the liturgical changes of VII. One thing I would encourage people to do is to actually read the words of Popes Paul VI, John XXIII, and John Paul II on the changes. Few people actually do, or read about the process first hand. Instead they listen to non clerical commentators who are extremely divisive and throw out soundbites.
Good job, Father. It is also important to acknowledge the fact that Eucharistic worship is invariably celebrated ad orientem throughout the rest of the Church, i.e. the Eastern Churches. I don't recall whether or not you mentioned the work of Msgr. Gamber on Ad Orientem worship, but it is a very valuable resource for anyone to help understand not only the theological underpinnings but also the historical.
Are we all headed in the same direction or not?
Do we want our bus-driver constantly turning around to ask us how we're doing?
Thank you Father, brilliant!
The local Bishop stopped ad Orientem. I wrote him a letter expressing the love of the practice.
He wrote back, stating he was against it, because he didn’t want to make anyone feel uncomfortable.
That’s sad because he is wrong. The liturgy was not about making people feel comfortable.
@@grandekev1
It is sad. The Bishop showed no concern for the wishes or comfort of the regular parishioners who had prayed the Mass ad Orientem for over 3 years. It’s a knee jerk reaction to anything that even appears to counter Vatican II.
@@WT-Sherman especially when V2 says nothing about it and the GIRM assumes ad orientem.
Traditional Aramaic Mass❤
Hi Fr. Pine, I saw you at Mass this and last sunday, hope you're enjoying your stay in Vienna ;)
I think it was a great development of the medievals. What do our eastern brothers think?
I'd say yes, because it leaves no room for mistakes. The Priest is serving God, the people, to a large extent, are not necessary
This is an ahistorical and theologically impoverished view of the mass
@bmccoy78 the Mass is celebrated by the Priest. It is better done with at least one altar boy but they aren't necessary. As a layman I am irrelevant to the Mass. It occurs with or without me. While it is good that I am there, I am not important, God is. The Priest is serving God, he is focused on God.
@@XtoDoubt25 Maybe that is why few go to Mass. But let's check the NT on Mass...."Hebrews 10:24...And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed: but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching."
@@oceanscaperthat is a leap haha
During colonialism, this was a great idea. But, Decades of losing laity to atheism and Protestantism/pseudo-Christianity, I’d say we’ve gotta keep the spark in the faithful somehow. “Behold, the Lamb of God”
Your interpretation of “we elderly” are wrong- again. I want ad orientem! I want communion rails. I want more than 30 minutes once a week for Holy Confession! I want no Eucharist ministers! So where can I go? Please tell me. Can’t drive long distances. I’m 76. Maybe watching The Sacrifice of the Mass on TV?
If u know how to use Google search. U can write in the search bar: " traditional latin mass near me" and press enter button. SSPX Masses are always great ❤ I know other of places in the bay area, SF CA not sure if that helps u! God bless!
TV definitely doesn't help
You should start praying hard for vocations 🙏
First I want to express my sympathy for your situation 😔; but second, and most important, is that you have to be present to participate in Mass. If watching another more reverent Mass in addition to going to your local Mass helps you deepen your own personal prayer then, go ahead. However, you cannot satisfy your need for Christ long distance, so going in person is absolutely necessary.
I want no altar girls either
The captain leading his ship is the only good argument I've found for ad orientum. Also, I couldn't find paragraph 299.
Saint Basil the Great says praying towards the East (not Liturgical East, but physical East) is an Apostolic tradition (in On the Holy Spirit). In the few churches in the West where the priest faced the people due to topography not allowing the church building to be oriented eastward (St Peter's being one of them), when the Anaphora/Eucharistic Prayer/Canon was prayed, the people turned around and faced East.
People be damned for their what about me feelings 😒 Worship Almighty God alone, with the Holy Priest at the head leading us in Worship. All tabernacles should be front and centre if you truly believe in the real presence ❤. The Catholic Church needs to wake up to the satanic interference in the Holy Worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.
My Bishop ordered all Tabernacles be returned to the center of the Sanctuary. He also directed that the Prayer to St. Michael is prayed at the end of every Mass.
@@erikriza7165 God bless him and has blessed you with him 🙏 ❤️
I'd really like a hybrid approach. First the priest faces the people when concecrating the eucharist, which emphasizes his working in the person of Christ and his place as head of the shared table. Afterwards when he offers Jesus to the Father, he should face east to show that what we are doing is ultimately for God and that the priest is our shepard, able to treat with God on our behalf in this special way.
I have been hoping for the same! I feel a hybrid of the two would be a beautiful blend! I’ve attended both, they each offer beauty-one feels familiar(NO) although casual; the other (TLM) feels unfamiliar, yet holy! A blend would be something I would like to worship at!
Can we a "strongman" for the theological aspects of ad populum
There’s no historical claim of it
I've always said regardless facing east and using the rail would do such much more to increase apriciation and belief in the eucharist then anything else
Good job Father
I was baptized in a.... round-shaped cathedral (Liverpool Metropolitan of Christ the King). And that would end this "argument" from the get-go 🙂
Thats how the Orthodox do Divine Liturgy.
Does anyone have any questions for Fr. Pine?
I think these issues are really trivial and do more to promote discord, bickering and division rather than to trully focus on worshiping God.
When Jesus said 'when two or three of you gather in my name I will be among you' did He mention 'turn ad orientem' because that is where the Father is'?
These issues only serve to obfuscate our hearts by paying exagerated attention to ritual and take our attention away from true worship of God.
Maybe people would understand the idea of facing the altar if they were given a solid, simple, George Jetson simple answer.
The priest facing the altar is all about the reverence that he is showing to God as he talks to Him. The Latin Mass has depth to it through the reverence that is shown to God from the very beginning of the procession into the church all the way through the Mass and continues on through the recession out of the church. The silence is deafening. I don’t know Latin but I absolutely love the Latin Mass. it is Everything because it was the Mass of the Saints. I pray that the Latin Mass is retained and that more bishops are cardinals will encourage people to attend the Latin Mass.
@@susandick1301And what about Eastern Rite Churches in Communion who face east for centuries? Don't they count, too?
And Annunciation Church in Downtown Houston does all Masses facing East, EF and OF. Do they count?
Both ways are equally valid, as established by the Vicar of Christ, who has the power to loose and bind.
Validity is a low bar and not what we should be striving for.
@@regandonohue3899 since there’s not a superior method, the Pope having declared both methods equal and facing the congregation to be the normal means, there is nothing to strive for. You can only create pride and schism, setting up your own preferences as holier and seeing others as lesser Catholics. This is a sin.
Lmao “electric”
Yes. Ad orientem.
Thank you Fr Pine. The argument presented for Ad Orientum provides insight that is appreciated. However, in observing the rigorous debate of the Tridentine Mass (1962 Rite) vs the New Rite (Novus Ordo), it seems to me that a weaponising is occurring.
Since the Eucharist is the source and submit of the Christian Faith, to which all other Sacraments are ordered, should all Catholics not focus toward the Real Presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ?
The Form and Matter or the words of consecration and bread/wine offered are same? There is but one Jesus and one Body?
Are some of the arguments/comments not Pharisaic tendencies? Does Jesus not prefer humble hearts seeking him?
+Pax Christi
Restore the old Offertory prayers and restore the parts removed from prayers following the Canon
Yes! BTW, the Catholic sacrifices perfectly fulfill the prophecy of Malachi 1:11 ☝️
Ad orientem is more apt. But here in the Philippines the people are taught that it is outmoded. They would be astounded if they knew the true significance of it. I think the bishops and priests ought to instruct the laity. But they either don't know or are afraid to displease the progressive hippie Catholics. May God help us.
I happened to be at an ad orientum novus ordo today, and of the four times the priest says, “the Lord be with you”, one of these times he was facing away. That seemed goofy to me. Why would he be facing away from us while directly addressing us? Was he supposed to be facing us at this time?
He may have just goofed. You said the other times he turned toward you right?
@@sandraelder1101 Yes. Thank you for the clarification.
@@moffitt_27Yeah sounds like a goof. The TLM the priest always turns around to the congregation to say Dominus Vobiscum.
I don’t think it was a goof. It was likely at the Preface Dialogue. Every TLM and Ad Orientum NO I’ve seen, the priest doesn’t face the people at that specific instance of saying “The Lord be with you.”
In the missal, it instructs him to face them at the “pray brethren” and then doesn’t specify to face them again when starting the dialogue so it’s assumed he continues to face east.
@@21amdg thanks for clarifying
we sometimes seem to be ignoring Jesus...." Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.i 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth;* and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. 24God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.”
Fr are you in Europe? The door handle, light switch and the cabinet seem to indicate such.
Aside question: Is it still called “ad orientem” when the altar doesn’t face east? I’m 99% sure it’s yes, but it is curious linguistically. Sort of a symbolic or implied east?
Yes, when the priest and people all face the same way toward the Altar, that is called ad orientem, no matter if they are facing east or not.
yes, it's "liturgical east"
I feel there is a place for both in this world! Particularly, since we have MANY MANY Catholics, but way fewer priests.
I absolutely prefer traditionand thus, Ad Orientem. But, the closest to me that orients in a “traditional” way to my liking is an hour an a half away.
I love this video though! Thanks for posting and creating.
I attend an Anglican Ordinariate parish where mass is celebrated ad orientum. I do so out of respect for my husband who does not like mass being celebrated versus populum. On Oct 4, 2013, I saw the Risen Lord in the host after the consecration- the priest was celebrating versus populum. It changed my life. It also made me see that Jesus is not "against" mass being celebrated towards the people. I miss seeing the Sacrifice of our Lord at our Ordinariate masses. I have heard all the arguments from ad orientum enthusiasts...I hope they don't get locked into their mindset.
The Church certainly has a… RITE… to organize her worship.
still during the transubstanciation when the priest is talking in persona christi... doesn't it make more sense to be facing the assembly, as Jesus did?
the rest of the mass, the priest is leading the assembly into church and offering the sacrifice after the transubstanciation... then it make sense to be faing the altar... or the orient if the altar isn't orientated toward the east.
Ad Orientam only works if you have a Tabernacle behind the altar table (or as part of a high altar), with the Tabernacle and the people facing each other. If there is no Tabernacle behind the altar table there is no point in the priest turning to face a wall with a Crucifix on it.
In the Ordinary Form church where I go to Mass this is the case. There is the altar table and on the wall behind it is a very large Crucifix. The Tabernacle is in a little chapel opposite the Crucifix at the back of the church. The Tabernacle, inside the chapel, is facing the altar. So technically the people have their backs to the Tabernacle but the priest, when he is saying Mass behind the altar and facing the people, is actually facing the Tabernacle! So technically he is saying Mass Ad Orientam and Versus Populem at the same time.
Jesus did not institute the Mass Ad Orientum, he instituted the Eucharist facing the Church (the Apostles)
Great video! Can you tell the leadership lol
The traditions of man defines the last supper lacks reverence.
Thanks Fr Pine! Excellent explanation as always. I recommend everyone read "Turning Towards the Lord" by Fr Uwe Michael Lang for a more in depth analysis. The book has a forward by then Cardinal Ratzinger and this position is fully endorsed by him (an authority on the matter if there ever was one).
Please also do a commentary on offering the current Missal in Latin, which was also repeatedly advocated by Pope Benedict and has even stronger footing in the official documents of Vatican II and other magisterial documents since then.
It's also very important to note that the discussion of the orientation and language of the Mass is entirely independent of the discussion of the editions of the Missal. Facing with the people and using Latin are the default under the current rules. Nothing in Vatican II or in any official documents ordered the vernacular or turning towards the people.
This might be inappropriate, but thinking of both orientation perspectives, is the major problem that people can’t see what’s going on when the priest is ad orientem? If so, cannot a camera be positioned in front of the priest to show to the people, what he’s doing? If the problem is being unable to see, and thus feeling “excluded”, then a camera view could cast an image up on the wall or a screen to show everyone, without disrupting the priest.
My take on Extraordinary Ministers is, there is, in my experience a high risk of abuse of the Sacred Host placed directly into a recipient’s hands. I’ve seen many bad, irreverent things occur. My opinion is, potential Eucharist abusers will be more deterred by having to kneel at a Communion rail and receive on the tongue, not in the hand. I have administered to recipients on the tongue, but as a short person, that’s tricky to do, with a very tall recipient (think college basketball players) unless they duck, crouch, or actually kneel down, or if they foresee a height issue, and simply go in a different line to a taller minister. This again, is deterred by all folks kneeling at an altar rail. The paten was also a happy insurance against losing a host on the way from the hand of the priest (or ordained deacon), to the recipient’s tongue. Failing there being an altar rail, there could be a judiciously placed kneeler. Having been, and been around EM’s for over 40 years, I will receive in the hand from a fellow lay minister, but only receive on the tongue from an ordained deacon or priest. EM’s are not necessarily well trained on administering on the tongue, and many a Host has been fumbled in such situations. If a recipient kneels at a rail, they are instructed to tilt their heads back and stick their tongues out far enough to get the Host placed securely on the tongue.
As to TLM, there has not been any available in this diocese for nearly 50 years. A 5 or 6 hour drive one way would be the nearest TLM, which is neither practical nor feasible for most folks, unless you count the lone local sedevacantist priest, not in communion with the pope & the RCCh. And you have to realize all the TLM restrictions being enforced in many dioceses nowadays. When you finally arrive you may find the TLM has simply been discontinued by the local bishop, alas.
the mass of paul vi should be realigned to follow more closely the intention of vatican 2 and perform the mass in the most reverent way possible. i think the rite was implemented haphazardly that it eroded the dignity worthy of God in worship. the church must refocus its efforts to eliminate distractions or confusions and direct every effort to our worship of God in the mass. ad orientem, in latin, with gregorian chant and organ music as exhorted by the second vatican council should be followed. most people probably don't realize that the versus populum was modeled primarily from the celebration of the papal mass in the vatican, even though they would also argue other historical bases. but that was the paragon, because the papal mass was the pinnacle of visible worship in the church. sometimes, noble intentions do not translate well in practice. the clergy should also reiterate that any changes intended by vatican 2 were intended for the greater glory of God and the better participation of the people. the clergy must strongly warn the laity against fraternizing with any schismatic organizations or priests that purport to be catholic or that elevate their disobedience of pope francis, the magisterium, and the ecumenical second vatican council. to reject the pope and the bishops of the catholic church and to reject the second vatican council is to be in schism. and anyone with schismatic standing are no better than the orthodox. beautiful liturgy, but not catholic
Did Jesus required ad oriented? You may be deceived by trad professors.
With all respect, this is a frustrating liturgical conversation. There are differences in emphasis and practicality, but the same eternal celebration. I'd encourage parishes to switch orientation a few times a year so as not to prioritize the aesthetics over the essential. The worst outcome in this is that we divide the Church unnecessarily on liturgical practices. It's sort of like Priests and their favorite Eucharist prayer: you're not more holy of you only use I, you're not more pastoral if you only use II or III. Make contextual choices about your prayers and orientation and explain them to the parish. Like celibrating ad Orientum on Passion Sunday specifically using orientation to emphasize the sacrifice. (Or vise versa when the gospel is the feeding 5000 to emphasize the communal meal, inviting the traditionalist Parish into a different aspect of the mystery)
The woke left has an entire theology on why "orient" is an offensive word. Worth pondering on for a sec.
I think etymology is so important. If people knew just a *little bit,* they’d know it means “East.”
So much so, whereas they cannot aim in a straight matter, and likewise and so forth.
I love how the word itself rebukes and corrects you when you skew things or mix up your priorities. The word itself resists redefinition and misuse. It isn't malleable, vulnerable to manipulation or willful self-delusion.
The thing is Father that your mom used to be and should be the norm, but after V2 she's one in thousends at best.
Not all churches face east. A local parish that was built before vatican 2 withs gorgeous alter agsisnt the wall faces the west. Which direction should the prest face?
Versus apsidem, the liturgical east
@igorlopes7589 so if my Church faces west, then the preist would face the people
The tabernacle.
@alternativefactory7190 no. He would face the tabernacle.
@@igorlopes7589 liturgical east what does that even mean?
I was so disappointed that the Mass at the Dominican Rosary Pilgrimage was offered vs. populum last year. Very much hoping it will be celebrated ad orientum from now on!
second
Third
Is the celebration of mass and eucharist for the forgiveness of sins? So like, a replacement of yom kippur? We no longer have to be Jewish and attend yom kippur with a Jewish high priest in Jerusalem temple and slaughter lambs for the forgiveness of sins. We get the best sacrifice/worship in any mass any place on the planet? It's now made available to every nation, tribe and tongue? Also...
If someone rejects the mass, are they not also rejecting the forgiveness that it provides? Matthew 26:27-28 NRSV-CI [27] Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; [28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
Drink from this cup of my blood for the forgiveness of sins!