Twenty-five years ago a friend of mine was approaching a slightly raised rail crossing in a hurry, but when he applied the brakes, a rubber brake line burst causing total brake failure. The truck hit the crossing, flipped and crushed him to death. He was a veteran volunteer fireman, and a professional mechanic in his day job, transporting 3,000 gallons of water to a fire. The moral: any brake system failure can be sudden and catastrophic. Upgrade your brake lines; keep your entire brake system in good condition; you’ll be glad you did.
Also do not skimp on the quality of the components, it’s not worth the small amount you save. Sorry to hear about your friend, but that’s the type of scenario that plays in my head when working on brakes to ensure that they’re fitted properly.
I was taught at a young age not to pump the brakes when bleeding a system using the two person method. Open bleeder, depress pedal, close bleeder, release pedal. Rinse. Repeat. A couple years ago, I was having issues bleeding my J-10's brakes and spoke to a brake "wizard" in the Jeep world. He agreed and elaborated on the subject. He informed me that pumping the pedal will break up the larger air bubbles and disperse the tiny bubbles throughout the brake fluid, making it more difficult to expel all the air from the system. Just a tip in case that's why your pedal felt soft initially. Love the videos!
Brake lines are one of the minor upgrades to the brake system, and only really show under extreme conditions like racing where you mash those brakes like crazy and your fluid goes close to boiling point, that is when you really don't want plastic/rubber hoses. But what most average car drivers report back as "incredible improvement" is usually just basic maintenance they did while replacing lines (new pads, fluid, flushing, bleeding, cleaning rotors, making sure the calliper assembly moves proper,...). Those are the things that make a big difference, anyone looking for an upgrade should start with those.
+Robert DIY the thing is when you had i mtb with hydraulic disk brakes you would see the stock rubber lines to "inflate", get thicker right in front of your eyes under heavy braking ....same goes with cars you just dont see it
Robert DIY i would say its more about the time needed to produce the same braking force w and w/o reinforcement on the lines...and every milisec counts + when we fidle around a bit, pedal/piston travel shows up too in the equation.
There's a lot of stuff that can affect your pedal feel. For starters, the reservoir channel in your master cylinder. If you take the lid off of your master cylinder, brake fluid will shoot out sky high when you push the pedal. If you get a different master cylinder like a Wilwood unit, that pathway is shorter, so the piston goes past the hole sooner and starts to pressurize the calipers. Your firewall might be flexing. Your brake pedal might be flexing. I'm slightly inclined to think banjo fittings with big ports might be better. A good experiment would be to match the hole in the banjo bolt to the hole in the banjo.
Eric I tried your one-man bleeder thing for the first time yesterday when changing brake fluid and it was about the greatest thing ever. Its almost as if you know what you're talking about when it comes to certain things! Anyway thanks for thinking that one up. Saved me some hassle for sure.
Really appreciate the honesty that it wasn't what you expected. I think most other people would have raved that it was the best thing since sliced bread to push their sponsor's product and justify doing the work. Keep up the great work!
I bought stainless braided brake lines for my 928 for $120 for the full set. Otherwise known as the cost of a single new OEM front line. Sometimes the upgrade is more cost effective than factory XD
Interesting video, thank you ETCG. If nothing else we learned a neat trick of using a stick to hold the brake pedal in so fluid does not leak out when you change out the brake lines. Will definitely have to remember that one.
thank for the video eric. I made this upgrade last year, and like you had the same conclusion. started digging, and found that my master cylinder was moving when I applied the breaks. lht performance makes a brace to prevent this. I have not tried it out yet, but have read good things about it.
Eric, the reason likely reason your parking lot brake bedding process improves brake feel is that air can get caught in the ABS module and actuating the solenoids in the ABS module will push the air out. The auto bleed feature on your Snapon or similar diagnostic computer does this also. Then do a regular bleed and you're good. Love that you discovered this from experience. Great vid and thanks.
+EricTheCarGuy often times a spongy brake pedal feel could be firewall flex. With my Subaru particularly it has a lot of firewall flex that causes a spongy feel. A simple fix to this is by adding an aftermarket brace on the master cylinder itself to stop it from moving when the brake petal is pushed. Grimmspeed makes this for my subaru, but i'd be curious to see if there are options out there for a vigor.
The firewall would only flex if you are trying to overwork crappy pads or are at the limit or a good pad during a track session. try going with performance pads and stay away from parts store pads if that's what you desire.
+Dan Carlos It has nothing to do with pads. You can watch the firewall flex when pressing the brakes. Parts store pads are fine. They offer budget and premium lines that are as good as any you'd get online, unless you're getting track pads. I did rally and never needed more.
+FCFordLord whatever works for you. Unless you've put on actual decent pads you wouldn't know. the cheap parts store pads are made of softer compounds to keep them from making noise, they don't consider any kind of performance when making them. And most cars don't have issues with firewall flex especially with highly boosted brakes, so please explain the answer to that.
I appreciate your honesty on this. That's why I gave you a thumb up. 👍 Steel braided lines do improve the brake pedal feel,but not in all cars. Like you said,it probably improves it most in cars that had really worn out rubber lines,in which case just replacing the old lines with new rubber stock ones would get you an improvement.
Thanks for the tutorial brother! Had to put the torch onto ALL of the threaded connections on my '06 Ohio Lexus, but they all came undone. I tried your brake-pedal-to-the-floor trick using 2 2x4's in connection with my power seat, and it worked like a charm-no leaking!
I have installed many SS lines on various Cara including Hondas and would say that initial engagement height may not change that much if the system was properly maintained (bled) and the rubber lines were not completely worn out. BUT... from the point of engagement the feel does improve drastically, especially under emergency braking or repeated hard use like on the track. These lines make it much easier to modulate to the limit without lockup in those situations. When it's time to replace rubber lines, I shop around online. I have found that most of the time I can locate SS lines for the same or sometimes less $ than a set of rubber lines from a local auto parts store. In that case, it becomes a no brainer to upgrade. Keep up the good work Eric! Love the "myth buster" vids!
I have to give you credit, the quality of your videos when working on the car is great, all the close up bits are nice and focused, taking the time to get the right angles and make such an in depth video, my hats off to you man!
Braided line flexes, just less than rubber ones. Especially old rubber ones. Though having had a braided line fail be very carefull with the routing, where rubber will flex and bend braided may fail. In my case 120mph backwards into a tyre wall. As for brake fluid change it every 12 months, recomended 2 years the fluid gets spongy. Unless you are racing standard premium brake fluid is more than adequate.
Thank you for the good video. My friend and I actually just had a conversation not too long ago about whether or not steel braided lines would be an upgrade.
Seeing Eric's focused face while breaking fills you with DETERMINATION! I'm going to try this with my Bonneville, I've bled those breaks through and through, and still they are a bit spongy feeling.
Eric, thank you for the tip on using a stick or rod between the pedal and the seat to press the pedal and "close off" the system from the fluid reservoir. That is genius!!! I'm about to install longer break lines on my jeep and I will definitely use that tip. Thank you!!!!!
+Silky Tp Many late model OEM style flexible rubber lines have a PTFE (Teflon) or polymer inner liner that are damaged by collapsing, clamping, pinching, kinking or crimping. Most model years newer than 2002 usually have this type of construction. There are numerous professional forums online that warn against damaging the flexible brake lines. There have been several lawsuits against shops and technicians/mechanics including driveway mechanics from collision damage and injuries resulting from failures after repairs.
I appreciate the warning, but it's MY vehicle, my risk, and I learned the technique from Eric The Car Guy, so... (shrug) I do it all the time now. Eric (and others) clearly state that there are those who warn against it, but he's been doing it for years without a problem. That said, my point still stands - no apparent benefit from steel brake hoses.
+Silky Tp The SAE, car makers and the hose makers say not to kink crush or pinch brake hoses because that damages them. Your right it is YOUR car and just because Eric does it is not a good reason to ignore professionals and the companies that make the products and cars.
Funny you made this video, I actually just put a set of Goodridge ss braided brake lines in my wife's 2003 Saab 9-3 convertible last weekend (March 12th). I feel better knowing she has them.
I want to share my experience with my vw golf on brakes. After pad change brakes always feel spongy even I didn't bleed them. For a while I thought it's normal but one day I was playing with VCDS and went to a abs section and there was a test option. After performing that test bakes felt awesome. The brake pedal feel is 100% more firm. Thanks for your video Eric.
Lol I love the excitement in your voice when you found out the new banjo fittings were also 14 mm. Also, I gotta get me one of those lights you wear on your head. MAN that seems handy!
Get the Astro light I reviewed instead, or in addition to. It's awesome. The headlight is OK, but doesn't work with my hat well and I bump into things a lot.
Great and informative video. I recently added steel brake lines for an 04 chevy impala with 3.8L engine. Like you I didn't notice a difference at low speeds, but at high speeds is where I noticed a difference where you brake and i get jolted or pulled forward compared to the rubber brake hoses. It really depends on the vehicle the condition of the brake system.
Very thorough!! Thanks. I have a 2010 Toyota Tundra with 46,000 KM...... about 27,000 mi. American. I have a spongy brake peddle too. Would worn ( but not worn out) front pads cause this?? I replaced he rear pads and rotors, but the front ones look fine. My trouble all started when I had it undercoated and the people sprayed all in around my brake calipers. ABS brakes and all pads and discs on the machine. I did everything you described, even the parking lot thing. By the way, you do a perfect job on your vids. i.e. 1) lighting 2) camera location 3) fast fwd. time consuming stuff. 4) explaining things WE might not understand....... and the list just goes on. Thanks again
I have the same results when I had a shop replaced my brake lines with steel braided lines together with new oem rotors and Hawk ceramic pads on my 2003 BMW 540. Although my 540 only have 44k miles as of 2 months ago when I had this done, I was feeling a little bit of vibration when I am braking. And the car being 12 years old, I just decided to have the above work done. As far as brake pedal travel, I didn't notice anything different.
Thanks so much for this vid! I have to replace my son's brakes on his VW passat and I was wondering about SBBL since we were gonna be replacing the rotors and pads anyway.
What I found with SS lines in all my cars is that the pedal travel rarely improves all that much, but what you are experiencing with the brakes becoming more responsive, is ultimately what you want. I don't actually think that a shorter brake travel is a good thing unless you are tracking the car and go from zero to full brake often. I think a modular brake pedal is best for daily driving, but what helps make it modular and more responsive is that fluid going where it's supposed to with more control. If you want a really improved brake pedal, then pads/rotors and a new master cylinder will do the most for you. Installing a master cylinder stopper bracket on my Miata effectively shortened brake pedal travel, by limiting the expansion and movement of the master cylinder seals during braking. Of course doing that can be slightly detrimental if it's an older MC as it might cause some leaking issues. All in all, I think you got exactly what you should have out of the lines! Thanks for this awesome channel!
On my 87 S10 I recently had a need to replace a couple metal brake lines. I bought a full stainless kit online that came with the 3 stainless brake hoses. In my experience, the pedal felt a lot better. But it is hard to say since at the the same time I replaced pretty much the entire front end, all 4 shocks, control arms, spindles, and everything for the front and rear brakes.
Hey Eric, other posters may have touched on these points, but three things I noticed in this video: 1) typical force applied to a brake pedal for hard stops is 80-100 lbs. Your finger test wouldn't push the fluid into the range where the SS lines would be doing their thing. 2) Likely reason the brakes worked better after a few hard stops is that typically the pads bite harder after warming up. 3) Likely reason the pedal depression changed from 2" to 1.5" was the new pads, which have more material, so the piston doesn't need to travel as far before compressing the rotor surface. I use SS braided lines on a couple of my cars and do believe it makes a difference - when you're on track decelerating from 100+ mph, before a corner, just on the threshold of lock-up. Cheers!
I did braided brake lines on my car a couple years ago, they didn't make the pedal feel any better but I noticed the brakes were a bit more sensitive. It's still a good upgrade though. If you want a good brake pedal feel you can get a master cylinder brace, but it depends if they make it for the car.
Not sure if it was mentioned earlier (TL;DR) but the change in pedal height after the master cylinder and front rotor change is due to the front rotors being thicker than old worn ones, thus less travel to get a firm brake. As for the steel braided lines reducing ballooning of the line, if the old ones are ballooning at all they should be replaced as this could well lead to a failure. Older lines seem thicker due to the coatings, but there is steel braid inside the layers. Having the steel braid on the outside just makes them look nicer, but exposes the braid to damage quicker.
I swapped in Caddy STS brake rotors & calipers, good brake pads, and Goodridge SS braided brake hoses on my Regal GS. I know there are Camaro/Corvette caliper swaps on there, but this was very simple and inexpensive (not to mention easy parts availability) swap/improvement. Paired with the suspension upgrades (progressive rate springs, KYB AGX struts, and sway bars off a 9C1 Impala) and good tires, the car stops very, very well. Ride isn't degraded, either- the combo works well.
I had steel lines put in many year ago. Not much difference. The one mod that did help my braking more was fitting poly suspension bushes. Reduced dip from the car when braking hard. The one thing with steel lines is as you mention, making sure there are no stress points from the wheel and suspension movement.
At least they are new and you changed your old lines. But for the best CHEAP improvement - new piston rubber set, clean the calipers and the better pads. From my experience, only real improvement is the change of the brake calipers with the better ones.
in my experience, to improve overall brake pedal feel is by eliminating the rubber lines, AND by adding a master cylinder brace. have someone pump the brakes hard with the engine on and you'll see just how far the master cylinder/booster assembly moves. by eliminating this you will have one helluva brake pedal, not to mention much improved braking performance. did it to my 01 integra and am super happy with the results.
One of my brake lines burst while I was driving. I'm looking to go stainless for that peace of mind that it will not happen again. Luckily I wasn't going very fast when it happened.
Plain rubber/neoprene type brake-hoses on a road car have a lot going for them since the assist offered by the vacuum servo in conjunction with ABS provides plenty of braking safety margin. They also have the advantage of showing cracks and minor bleeds when they need to be replaced and also when brake discs and shoes need renewing they can be crimped closed temporarily. Steel over braided hoses come into their own with track cars without servos or ABS and with perhaps a brake balance bar to adjust front/rear braking effort.
there is a miniscule amount of added space for brake fluid when rubber lines have pressure so it is hard to feel a difference. I put stainless on high end jobs just because of appearance
Motorcyclist have been upgrading to stainless steel hoses for many years. Mainly because stock rubber hoses being discontinued. The improvement is even greater when its you're hand squeezing a lever compared to ones foot.
I seem to recall there is a reward on offer somewhere for anyone that can show a decent vehicle new undamaged OEM brake hose bulging at operating pressures; in other words, it just doesn't happen. People reporting better feeling brakes from installing braided lines (yup, done it plenty of times as a kid) are actually just feeling the benefits of a good bleed; no air, fresh fluid.
Plus peer pressure; if all your tuning buddies installed SS lines, you need them to! Heck, I use to convert all my cars to SS lines before I knew better.
on the past 3 cars that i have done goodridge lines on, i have consistently had issues with air being pulled through the threads where the old fittings meet the new line. Only solution ive been able to come up with to prevent this and get a true airless bleed is to use loctite 567 thread sealer (with a specific compatibility for use with brake fluids). I know that its typically not the recommended procedure but ive been doing it now on all brake line fittings for years with fantastic results.
You should never fully depress a brake pedal during a job for any reason. If the MS piston moves to far out of the normally worn bore it can flip the seals causing a leak.
Eric you're going to have to go with a more aggressive pad compound to really change the brake feel, the lines definitely contribute to the feel but kinda need to be coupled with a better pad. Parts store pads don't really cut it in the braking department. I came up with a motto. "Built to last, not to stop". Try a street performance pad like a Hawk HPS or similar.
Hi Eric, I found fairly similar results to you when swapping to Braided Brake lines from the same Manufacturer. Ultimately I found they worked better very under hard braking, other than that "possibly" a sharper pedal. But like you, I replaced old lines and fluid. Not quite a night and day difference. I also found the fitment was not quite to OE standards.
Thanks Eric nice videos. :-) My comments: 1-ALWAYS wash out all the areas that got in contact with brake fluid. After a couple of years you'll appreciate the difference. 2-When replacing old OEM brake lines the option of steel braided can make some sense, otherwise it's no worth at all. Exception to sports/heavy loads (trailer) use, but on your grocery getter or commuter car is trowing money away. 3-When you got the brakes cherry red :-) than you feel the difference. Main point for sports dry driving YES. For wet, ice, snow, generally slippery conditions stick with normal hoses, gives much better control. Did you ever wonder why the manufacturers stick to "normal" hoses?? ;-)
fuck yeah. Best upgrade for the money just cause of the feel. And that adds to control. Which adds to avoiding a wreck. I love my ss lines. Goodridge also.
+EricTheCarGuy They were installed yesterday, and I seem to be experiencing the same issues you had, where the brake pad is still a bit squishy. Some hard braking seemed to tighten up the pedal feel, but it isn't hugely noticeable. I still have to break in my new pads and rotors, too, so that might be causing my issues... Hopefully I'll find a parking lot of some sort that will allow me to fix my issues (night time at the university usually is the best time, actually haha).
I admit I may have missed something on the topic. Having said that I'm sure ever since hydraulic brake where introduced on motor vehicles the flexible brake lines lines have had braided steel wire reinforcing layers. Show us a test that shows the after market lines have a higher failure pressure. Take the rubber covering off an OEM live and measure how much the OD increase at certain pressure that coincides with real world brake use, comare that to the OD increase of the after market line at the same pressure. The only pluseI see to the after market line is that the outer most wire reinforcement layer isn't covered by rubber layer So it's easier to see if there a problem with the outermost wire reinforcing layer. In my experience it's more liking corrosion inside the metal tubing line will cause a brake failure, not OEM quality flexible lines. This channel has many videos where I learned a new tip or resolve a kink or two, but there are those like this on that leave with nah.
The pedal feel will be more consistent and therefore more predictable. I recently had a StopTech brake line fail after 3 years, 8 months, 109k miles of use. It was discovered on a lower speed stop. At higher speeds, it may not have stopped in time. All of the Goodridge lines I’ve ever had seem to be fine even after many years. Starting to consider if I need to replace them periodically (based on time?), regardless of make.
so I had a 2002 Subaru impreza and I did the brake lines, rotors and pads. The pedal was cut down drastically. felt like a different car and hated at first but after few days loved it. same with hydrolic clutch lines. so much better with braided
I would say the main contribtor to the improvement was that the friction material gets more coarse when you do a bit of heavier braking with ABS. Regarding the feel, well I think there are different experiences. Jason from Engineering Explained actually also has a video on such brake lines and he pretty much made a point that steel lines alone will hardly have any effect. Because the rubber lines also have large amount of metal strings in them to make them strong.
Markus Krause Yeah, you're right. Either they were high quality and had a good life, or they have been replaced. Usually, by that age and several years sooner, a Honda needs at least one new one. Probably whichever side parks towards the sun more (more heating and cooling from day to night ages the rubber).
from my limited experience actually making hoses at a dayco plant and dealing with reinforced hoses for cars including brake lines and iirc power steering ones; those tiny hoses are extra thick and didn't have metal threading, but did have thread reinforcement in the middle of the thick hose (was white, fabric-like string, not steel wire). So they aren't thin walled hoses like your coolant system, they are small, but maybe 1/4" thick or so with a much smaller hole than you would assume with the fiber reinforcement. Good enough for mass production and safety (this company was working on improved quality/longevity to get/hold on to Japanese car manufacturer contracts as they have a specific ppm acceptable failure rate to even consider your bid, as people don't blame the hose maker, they blame the car maker for something like a hose defect). So I do agree that this 'mod' is more placebo for a person putting around in a luxury car vs someone that does autocross/track usage or just drives ridiculously (and probably dangerously) on public roads and highways (I get it, I did stupid stuff in my teens and experienced severe brake fade in a used car trying to slow down from a triple digit speed for a car that pulled out far, far in front of me). So, do it for fun, because you love cars and tinkering/upgrading stuff ... not because its going to make you stop any sooner in normal driving conditions or even an emergency brake/swerve situation at normal speeds. Your car can be just transportation, or an extension of yourself; do what you want! (within reason and definitely with consideration of the safety of others around you ... including both their person and property) I only mention things like this because I've almost been rear ended/swiped going 10+ over speed limit (80+ mph) and idiots who think an interstate is a race track going 100+ in their psuedo sports cars or even trucks/suvs. Take it to a track, assholes; I don't need to get flipped at 85 mph because you think you are some spirit animal of your favorite race driver. Go masturbate or something before getting on the roads if you are that angsty and depressed.
Hydraulic lines always have one or more braids to reinforce/limit expansion - cut an old hose open and you'll see it all. Steel typically, and sometimes one or even two extra layers of nylon is what provides the strength. I like jacketed better than naked braid [as was installed here] as it cleans up easier/collects less grime, and usually is less trouble on swaging. it's more topic than anyone wants to get into, but pedal travel is mainly dictated by hose/line i.d. If you change specs [to a higher pressure rated hose let's say], yes you can get rid of some softness but the cost comes at flexibility - be careful there, as taking a hose past it's minimum bend radius can be a premature failure down the road. Sometimes you see mix of hard line and hose on a system that seems like more trouble that it was worth, and that may be to make sharp corners the hose should not service in addition to providing easy fastening points for install.
If your brake line nut is stripped or stuck to the brake hose, go to Napa and get their in-line brake flare tool, and buy a new section of brake line with the correct end flare for your hoses. Cut off one end of the new section and cut the brake line on the car. Make your flares on the brake lines. Use a double flare union (the tool creates double flares) and tighten it down. Not a good idea for exceptionally rusty brake lines but if the line is good and the end is just screwed up this is a much safer alternative than compression fittings which most people usually do.
+Zach Grounds Yep, compression fittings in brake lines is bad juju... Rust? That's what salt belt lines are made of... I use Ni-Copp or Cunifer line if possible. Flares EASY, bends easy and doesn't rot off like steel. It's a bit more up front but not needing to replace the lines every 5 years or less is a great thing.
OMG I was so excited about getting some steel lines to improve the "bite" on my brakes, but what a honest opinion! I guess I'll try slamming on my brakes instead if that's what it really is. Also I have a question, how does bleeding it when the car is on helped? I wish I had known that if it gives a better result.
nice honest video, apparently the master cylinder seal can go bad if the brake pedal is floored. I think an automative pressure bleeder would be a good addition to your tools to prevent this from happening.
+farerse Yeah, pushing it into the end of the bore isn't a good thing. Push the piston down just enough to block the ports and you would be OK. Not sure why he doesn't have a pressure bleeder. They make it a LOT simpler to bleed or flush the system.
+farerse The seal gets damaged inside of the master cylinder only if there is corrosion there. Usually the pedal never travels that far so it can never remove the corrosion and make it smooth like the rest of the bore during daily use. It wont damage a new part.
The reinforcement in old style flexible brake hose is incomparable to SS braided brake hose in stopping the expansion of diameter of the rubber hose.The firmness in diameter when stepping means more force towards the brake cylinder and therefore better stop in vehicle.
I believe most rubber brake lines have a warped steel wire jacket as one of the layers, rubber is much too flexible on their own and will have some sort of jacket to do this very job. braided steel covers have a considerable amount of expansion on their own probably slightly better than stock I would hope. I was told about the steel warped stock brake lines by my grandfather who was a mechanic for most of his life, mostly on VWs. I never cut a brake line apart so i cant say if it is still true or not.
Well, old rubber tend to flex more, and they can also lose pieces inside (maybe those steel hoses also can?) and sort of block the hose, so that the break stays on a bit etc etc. So you would get a much better feel if that was the case. But anyway, now they wont get old in the same way. And I also agree, this is a very good "mod".
Difference won't be so much the initial bite or travel, but it will be a less spongy feel to the pedal under harder braking. Under hard braking the rubber hose will expand slightly where the steel braided line will expand much less, sending more fluid to the caliper hence better feel.
I'm no expert but I have seen it here on RUclips in a couple vids of a diagnostic tool that can bleed the abs system. The vids described it was to bring back pedal height and feel. May see if that can help you get your solid pedal back. You'll have to rebleed the calipers again but should help. Keep it up with the great vids!
+Velocity Labs Nice to see you in the comments Erik. BTW, I gave you some love in my live show last week. Hope you see some subs from it. Was great working with you in ATL. Hope we can work together again sometime.
+EricTheCarGuy It would have been fun to cut the old lines to look at the cross section. They might have a layer of strong nylon reinforcement kind of like a steel belted radial tire. They might be almost as stiff as the steel braided lines. Cool video and as always, thanks.
+John Ferguson Many people have mentioned cutting open an old line. I wish I had thought of that when I made the video. However, I believe I mentioned that the results might be the same with new rubber lines. Thanks for your input.
@5:30 it looked like you could have pried that original hose clamp off of the old brake line and used it on the new one. It's a shame they did not include new clamps with the kit.
To close off the circuits to stop the system from bleeding out when you disconnect the lines, the brake pedal only has to be depressed 1 to 1.5 inch. (just lay on the brakes) not all the way down. when you use a light enough aid (i use my warning triangle in it's box) the spring of the pedal wil hold that to the seat throughout the job.
Thanks for doing a honest review of this steel braided brake line... I always thought they were manly used to improve endurance in the brakes. After this, i'm pretty convince it's a nice upgrade, but if you really want to improve the brakes, you might have better luck if you upgrade the pads, rotary and piston (which is not a easy task on certain vehicule)
First thing I do on a street bike is replace just the front brake lines to steel braided. They offer a firmer feel then stock, but where they shine is when you are hard on your brakes, things heat up, the steel braided lines work better when hot then stock. Stock are mushy.
often the master cilinder is mounted to a weak flexing firewall. This also produces mushy brake feel. If this is the case you should see the master cilinder move a bit when somebody else pushes on the brake pedal.
I use a driver gold club to press the brake pedal down when I am checking the brake lights. The head of the club is on the pedal and the handle is against the back of the seat ----------------------------- Braking performance may improve since the rubber hoses expand under use there might be a small drop in hydraulic pressure where as since the steel braided lines don't expand the hydraulic pressure loss is pretty much 0 so there calipers can stop the car a little bit better
I would add that many people aren't aware of the importance of simply flushing the brake fluid of a car also. I don't know Eric's thoughts on that, but many technicians in my town think it's snake oil, which is unfortunate. look up the word hygroscopic. Brake fluid is clear like water when it's new. when it starts to suck in atmospheric moisture, it begins to rust the hard lines from the inside out, so when it looks like strong coffee it does so because your looking at liquefied rust in the system. Brake fluid, when it's still good, will keep the brake pedal from going too far down. When it goes dark and has moisture in it, the pedal easily goes closer to the floor. This is because you can compress water into a smaller space, but not pure brake fluid. A regular customer of mine had a large older Buick. She brought the car to me because the brake pedal was hitting the floor. She had also just spent $1200 having all the brakes replaced front and rear. I called the other shop and confirmed they bled out the air at each corner as well. I asked if they flushed her fluid, the owner said that was bs and he just knew it wouldn't do a thing for the car. I flushed all the old fluid out and all new fluid in at each corner. The brake pedal barely had 2 inches of travel after that. My customer swore I put all new parts of a better quality in, I told her it was just new fluid. She was amazed. I flush brake fluid about every 2 years on my car. This is also why my hard lines don't rust through on the frame rails. I'm a big believer in this for excellent reasons. If you look at a sample of brake fluid removed from your car, like with a turkey baster, it should be translucent. If you can not see through it, then do a complete flush. Make notes on how far the pedal travels before and after. This is all an easy sell if you've just did a total front and rear brake job. Did you start to wonder about the quality if parts you used? Do a brake fluid flush instead. Notice a dramatic improvement? Good.
+Brian Genter Actually, water is incompressable too....why it's not uses in braking systems, and why old brake fluid containing absorbed water is not particularly to do with corrosion. When water gets hot, it expands..... imagine using your brakes on a decent, the heat from the rotors transfers to the pistons, further heating the water causing more expansion! What else happens to water when it gets hot? It liberates steam, and one ml of water can become 70ml of steam at 100 centigrade, brakes generate significantly higher temperatures! Old braking fluid does indeed contain moisture, which liberates compressible gasses that makes brakes feel spongy. TL;DNR , you can't compress water!
I always attach the brake line to the caliper first, then route it with a even non twisting flow to the hex hole in the bracket, it will find the best position in the hex hole naturally. This insures that the brake line has no twisting tension in the line at all. Just my method.
Interesting video. Lots of useful information. I think the product is good and worth installing. You just have to have reasonable expectations about what it can and cannot do.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Twenty-five years ago a friend of mine was approaching a slightly raised rail crossing in a hurry, but when he applied the brakes, a rubber brake line burst causing total brake failure. The truck hit the crossing, flipped and crushed him to death. He was a veteran volunteer fireman, and a professional mechanic in his day job, transporting 3,000 gallons of water to a fire. The moral: any brake system failure can be sudden and catastrophic. Upgrade your brake lines; keep your entire brake system in good condition; you’ll be glad you did.
Also do not skimp on the quality of the components, it’s not worth the small amount you save. Sorry to hear about your friend, but that’s the type of scenario that plays in my head when working on brakes to ensure that they’re fitted properly.
I was taught at a young age not to pump the brakes when bleeding a system using the two person method. Open bleeder, depress pedal, close bleeder, release pedal. Rinse. Repeat. A couple years ago, I was having issues bleeding my J-10's brakes and spoke to a brake "wizard" in the Jeep world. He agreed and elaborated on the subject. He informed me that pumping the pedal will break up the larger air bubbles and disperse the tiny bubbles throughout the brake fluid, making it more difficult to expel all the air from the system.
Just a tip in case that's why your pedal felt soft initially.
Love the videos!
+Chris Hager Thanks for the input.
Brake lines are one of the minor upgrades to the brake system, and only really show under extreme conditions like racing where you mash those brakes like crazy and your fluid goes close to boiling point, that is when you really don't want plastic/rubber hoses.
But what most average car drivers report back as "incredible improvement" is usually just basic maintenance they did while replacing lines (new pads, fluid, flushing, bleeding, cleaning rotors, making sure the calliper assembly moves proper,...). Those are the things that make a big difference, anyone looking for an upgrade should start with those.
+MsSomeonenew best comment here. ;-) Eric does a fine job in this videos series, but this myths should be cleared. Thanks.
MsSomeonenew So why is it then that MotoGP bikes all run rubber brake lines?
luuk341 maybe weight savings? Do they actually or you are joking?
I agree that most improvement is in the maintenance. I have felt night and day improvements in just basic repairs
U r 100 percent correct.
Good honest demonstration. I recently installed new stainless steel brake lines and only notice the difference when braking hard.
+Robert DIY the thing is when you had i mtb with hydraulic disk brakes you would see the stock rubber lines to "inflate", get thicker right in front of your eyes under heavy braking ....same goes with cars you just dont see it
I understand that, but that will not effect travel that much.
Robert DIY i would say its more about the time needed to produce the same braking force w and w/o reinforcement on the lines...and every milisec counts + when we fidle around a bit, pedal/piston travel shows up too in the equation.
OK
There's a lot of stuff that can affect your pedal feel. For starters, the reservoir channel in your master cylinder. If you take the lid off of your master cylinder, brake fluid will shoot out sky high when you push the pedal. If you get a different master cylinder like a Wilwood unit, that pathway is shorter, so the piston goes past the hole sooner and starts to pressurize the calipers. Your firewall might be flexing. Your brake pedal might be flexing. I'm slightly inclined to think banjo fittings with big ports might be better. A good experiment would be to match the hole in the banjo bolt to the hole in the banjo.
Eric I tried your one-man bleeder thing for the first time yesterday when changing brake fluid and it was about the greatest thing ever. Its almost as if you know what you're talking about when it comes to certain things! Anyway thanks for thinking that one up. Saved me some hassle for sure.
Really appreciate the honesty that it wasn't what you expected. I think most other people would have raved that it was the best thing since sliced bread to push their sponsor's product and justify doing the work. Keep up the great work!
Wasn't a sponsors product, just a re-saler.
The small moments you make to introduce tools for each situation warrant a thumbs up. Nice work buddy!
I just wanted to let you know man. In my opinion your whole series rocks. Appreciate the work and approach you take in car repairs
I bought stainless braided brake lines for my 928 for $120 for the full set. Otherwise known as the cost of a single new OEM front line.
Sometimes the upgrade is more cost effective than factory XD
I did the same, truly no question when you can get a full s/s kit under 200
Interesting video, thank you ETCG. If nothing else we learned a neat trick of using a stick to hold the brake pedal in so fluid does not leak out when you change out the brake lines. Will definitely have to remember that one.
thank for the video eric. I made this upgrade last year, and like you had the same conclusion. started digging, and found that my master cylinder was moving when I applied the breaks. lht performance makes a brace to prevent this. I have not tried it out yet, but have read good things about it.
I've been using a mighty-vac for brake bleeding, master cylinder and clutch for 20+ years, works great, one man job.
I LOL'd at
"I want this connection back."
* ziptie *
"I think that looks freaking excellent."
Eric, the reason likely reason your parking lot brake bedding process improves brake feel is that air can get caught in the ABS module and actuating the solenoids in the ABS module will push the air out. The auto bleed feature on your Snapon or similar diagnostic computer does this also. Then do a regular bleed and you're good. Love that you discovered this from experience. Great vid and thanks.
+EricTheCarGuy often times a spongy brake pedal feel could be firewall flex. With my Subaru particularly it has a lot of firewall flex that causes a spongy feel. A simple fix to this is by adding an aftermarket brace on the master cylinder itself to stop it from moving when the brake petal is pushed. Grimmspeed makes this for my subaru, but i'd be curious to see if there are options out there for a vigor.
The firewall would only flex if you are trying to overwork crappy pads or are at the limit or a good pad during a track session. try going with performance pads and stay away from parts store pads if that's what you desire.
+Dan Carlos It has nothing to do with pads. You can watch the firewall flex when pressing the brakes.
Parts store pads are fine. They offer budget and premium lines that are as good as any you'd get online, unless you're getting track pads. I did rally and never needed more.
+FCFordLord whatever works for you. Unless you've put on actual decent pads you wouldn't know. the cheap parts store pads are made of softer compounds to keep them from making noise, they don't consider any kind of performance when making them. And most cars don't have issues with firewall flex especially with highly boosted brakes, so please explain the answer to that.
The folks you're answering know about different pads. Firewall flex is a well-known issue on some Subarus.
hmm i never looked for that problem my 2012 subaru legacy has really spongy feeling brakes after new pads and bleeding them
I appreciate your honesty on this. That's why I gave you a thumb up. 👍 Steel braided lines do improve the brake pedal feel,but not in all cars. Like you said,it probably improves it most in cars that had really worn out rubber lines,in which case just replacing the old lines with new rubber stock ones would get you an improvement.
Thanks for the tutorial brother! Had to put the torch onto ALL of the threaded connections on my '06 Ohio Lexus, but they all came undone. I tried your brake-pedal-to-the-floor trick using 2 2x4's in connection with my power seat, and it worked like a charm-no leaking!
How honest and transperant. Good stuff! Love your detail and lesson on mechanics!
The camera shot and lighting at 16:36 made it look exactly like an episode of cops :D lol
I have installed many SS lines on various Cara including Hondas and would say that initial engagement height may not change that much if the system was properly maintained (bled) and the rubber lines were not completely worn out. BUT... from the point of engagement the feel does improve drastically, especially under emergency braking or repeated hard use like on the track. These lines make it much easier to modulate to the limit without lockup in those situations. When it's time to replace rubber lines, I shop around online. I have found that most of the time I can locate SS lines for the same or sometimes less $ than a set of rubber lines from a local auto parts store. In that case, it becomes a no brainer to upgrade. Keep up the good work Eric! Love the "myth buster" vids!
I have to give you credit, the quality of your videos when working on the car is great, all the close up bits are nice and focused, taking the time to get the right angles and make such an in depth video, my hats off to you man!
+Cory Gilbert Thank you! Not many people realize the effort that goes into these videos. It's nice when it's recognized.
Braided line flexes, just less than rubber ones. Especially old rubber ones.
Though having had a braided line fail be very carefull with the routing, where rubber will flex and bend braided may fail. In my case 120mph backwards into a tyre wall.
As for brake fluid change it every 12 months, recomended 2 years the fluid gets spongy. Unless you are racing standard premium brake fluid is more than adequate.
I fitted goodridge braided lines to my ef civic. I like them and they are a cheap and cheerful upgrade.
Lol such a angry face when in the parking lot slamming the brake. 😂😂😂😂
+Mitchell Camacho i know, right! friggin intense. like someone kicked his dog.
More like Jim Carey !!
Thank you for the good video. My friend and I actually just had a conversation not too long ago about whether or not steel braided lines would be an upgrade.
Seeing Eric's focused face while breaking fills you with DETERMINATION!
I'm going to try this with my Bonneville, I've bled those breaks through and through, and still they are a bit spongy feeling.
+EqualsThreeable Would have been funny as hell if he edited in a cat screeching sound and thump while braking to give the illusion of hitting a cat.
Eric, thank you for the tip on using a stick or rod between the pedal and the seat to press the pedal and "close off" the system from the fluid reservoir. That is genius!!! I'm about to install longer break lines on my jeep and I will definitely use that tip. Thank you!!!!!
Great close-up real-world videography - really helpful for average amateur guys like me who'll be doing this once in a blue moon. Excellent work.
Thanks for this honest video. I'm now convinced that for a DIYer, rubber hoses rock. Crimping rubber hose during brake service trumps shiny lines.
+Silky Tp
Many late model OEM style flexible rubber lines have a PTFE (Teflon) or polymer inner liner that are damaged by collapsing, clamping, pinching, kinking or crimping.
Most model years newer than 2002 usually have this type of construction.
There are numerous professional forums online that warn against damaging the flexible brake lines. There have been several lawsuits against shops and technicians/mechanics including driveway mechanics from collision damage and injuries resulting from failures after repairs.
I appreciate the warning, but it's MY vehicle, my risk, and I learned the technique from Eric The Car Guy, so... (shrug) I do it all the time now. Eric (and others) clearly state that there are those who warn against it, but he's been doing it for years without a problem.
That said, my point still stands - no apparent benefit from steel brake hoses.
+Silky Tp
The SAE, car makers and the hose makers say not to kink crush or pinch brake hoses because that damages them.
Your right it is YOUR car and just because Eric does it is not a good reason to ignore professionals and the companies that make the products and cars.
Funny you made this video, I actually just put a set of Goodridge ss braided brake lines in my wife's 2003 Saab 9-3 convertible last weekend (March 12th). I feel better knowing she has them.
+Jesse Crandle I'm happy to help.
I want to share my experience with my vw golf on brakes. After pad change brakes always feel spongy even I didn't bleed them. For a while I thought it's normal but one day I was playing with VCDS and went to a abs section and there was a test option. After performing that test bakes felt awesome. The brake pedal feel is 100% more firm. Thanks for your video Eric.
+strokermk3 Slamming on the brakes like I did at the end of the video does the same thing.
Lol I love the excitement in your voice when you found out the new banjo fittings were also 14 mm. Also, I gotta get me one of those lights you wear on your head. MAN that seems handy!
Get the Astro light I reviewed instead, or in addition to. It's awesome. The headlight is OK, but doesn't work with my hat well and I bump into things a lot.
Great and informative video. I recently added steel brake lines for an 04 chevy impala with 3.8L engine. Like you I didn't notice a difference at low speeds, but at high speeds is where I noticed a difference where you brake and i get jolted or pulled forward compared to the rubber brake hoses. It really depends on the vehicle the condition of the brake system.
Glad someone made an honest review on steel lines been chasing a soft pedal in the girlfriends cars for a while an was considering these
Very thorough!! Thanks. I have a 2010 Toyota Tundra with 46,000 KM...... about 27,000 mi. American. I have a spongy brake peddle too. Would worn ( but not worn out) front pads cause this?? I replaced he rear pads and rotors, but the front ones look fine. My trouble all started when I had it undercoated and the people sprayed all in around my brake calipers. ABS brakes and all pads and discs on the machine. I did everything you described, even the parking lot thing. By the way, you do a perfect job on your vids. i.e. 1) lighting 2) camera location 3) fast fwd. time consuming stuff. 4) explaining things WE might not understand....... and the list just goes on. Thanks again
love the honesty! your video reviews are great!
I have the same results when I had a shop replaced my brake lines with steel braided lines together with new oem rotors and Hawk ceramic pads on my 2003 BMW 540. Although my 540 only have 44k miles as of 2 months ago when I had this done, I was feeling a little bit of vibration when I am braking. And the car being 12 years old, I just decided to have the above work done. As far as brake pedal travel, I didn't notice anything different.
Thanks so much for this vid! I have to replace my son's brakes on his VW passat and I was wondering about SBBL since we were gonna be replacing the rotors and pads anyway.
What I found with SS lines in all my cars is that the pedal travel rarely improves all that much, but what you are experiencing with the brakes becoming more responsive, is ultimately what you want. I don't actually think that a shorter brake travel is a good thing unless you are tracking the car and go from zero to full brake often.
I think a modular brake pedal is best for daily driving, but what helps make it modular and more responsive is that fluid going where it's supposed to with more control. If you want a really improved brake pedal, then pads/rotors and a new master cylinder will do the most for you.
Installing a master cylinder stopper bracket on my Miata effectively shortened brake pedal travel, by limiting the expansion and movement of the master cylinder seals during braking. Of course doing that can be slightly detrimental if it's an older MC as it might cause some leaking issues.
All in all, I think you got exactly what you should have out of the lines!
Thanks for this awesome channel!
On my 87 S10 I recently had a need to replace a couple metal brake lines. I bought a full stainless kit online that came with the 3 stainless brake hoses. In my experience, the pedal felt a lot better. But it is hard to say since at the the same time I replaced pretty much the entire front end, all 4 shocks, control arms, spindles, and everything for the front and rear brakes.
Hey Eric, other posters may have touched on these points, but three things I noticed in this video: 1) typical force applied to a brake pedal for hard stops is 80-100 lbs. Your finger test wouldn't push the fluid into the range where the SS lines would be doing their thing. 2) Likely reason the brakes worked better after a few hard stops is that typically the pads bite harder after warming up. 3) Likely reason the pedal depression changed from 2" to 1.5" was the new pads, which have more material, so the piston doesn't need to travel as far before compressing the rotor surface. I use SS braided lines on a couple of my cars and do believe it makes a difference - when you're on track decelerating from 100+ mph, before a corner, just on the threshold of lock-up. Cheers!
I did braided brake lines on my car a couple years ago, they didn't make the pedal feel any better but I noticed the brakes were a bit more sensitive. It's still a good upgrade though. If you want a good brake pedal feel you can get a master cylinder brace, but it depends if they make it for the car.
if anyone was looking out into the parking lot while you were slamming on the brakes they probably thought you were crazy haha
Not sure if it was mentioned earlier (TL;DR) but the change in pedal height after the master cylinder and front rotor change is due to the front rotors being thicker than old worn ones, thus less travel to get a firm brake. As for the steel braided lines reducing ballooning of the line, if the old ones are ballooning at all they should be replaced as this could well lead to a failure. Older lines seem thicker due to the coatings, but there is steel braid inside the layers. Having the steel braid on the outside just makes them look nicer, but exposes the braid to damage quicker.
I swapped in Caddy STS brake rotors & calipers, good brake pads, and Goodridge SS braided brake hoses on my Regal GS. I know there are Camaro/Corvette caliper swaps on there, but this was very simple and inexpensive (not to mention easy parts availability) swap/improvement. Paired with the suspension upgrades (progressive rate springs, KYB AGX struts, and sway bars off a 9C1 Impala) and good tires, the car stops very, very well. Ride isn't degraded, either- the combo works well.
I had steel lines put in many year ago. Not much difference. The one mod that did help my braking more was fitting poly suspension bushes. Reduced dip from the car when braking hard. The one thing with steel lines is as you mention, making sure there are no stress points from the wheel and suspension movement.
At least they are new and you changed your old lines. But for the best CHEAP improvement - new piston rubber set, clean the calipers and the better pads. From my experience, only real improvement is the change of the brake calipers with the better ones.
in my experience, to improve overall brake pedal feel is by eliminating the rubber lines, AND by adding a master cylinder brace. have someone pump the brakes hard with the engine on and you'll see just how far the master cylinder/booster assembly moves. by eliminating this you will have one helluva brake pedal, not to mention much improved braking performance. did it to my 01 integra and am super happy with the results.
"I'm really glad I put that lid on" should become a t shirt
😅
I can tell Brian loved the ending in the car park haha!
One of my brake lines burst while I was driving. I'm looking to go stainless for that peace of mind that it will not happen again. Luckily I wasn't going very fast when it happened.
Plain rubber/neoprene type brake-hoses on a road car have a lot going for them since the assist offered by the vacuum servo in conjunction with ABS provides plenty of braking safety margin. They also have the advantage of showing cracks and minor bleeds when they need to be replaced and also when brake discs and shoes need renewing they can be crimped closed temporarily. Steel over braided hoses come into their own with track cars without servos or ABS and with perhaps a brake balance bar to adjust front/rear braking effort.
there is a miniscule amount of added space for brake fluid when rubber lines have pressure so it is hard to feel a difference. I put stainless on high end jobs just because of appearance
Motorcyclist have been upgrading to stainless steel hoses for many years. Mainly because stock rubber hoses being discontinued. The improvement is even greater when its you're hand squeezing a lever compared to ones foot.
Thanks for keeping it real. Some 'upgrades' aren't really worth the coin spent...
I seem to recall there is a reward on offer somewhere for anyone that can show a decent vehicle new undamaged OEM brake hose bulging at operating pressures; in other words, it just doesn't happen.
People reporting better feeling brakes from installing braided lines (yup, done it plenty of times as a kid) are actually just feeling the benefits of a good bleed; no air, fresh fluid.
I like to say it's a perfect example of a placebo ehh...
Plus peer pressure; if all your tuning buddies installed SS lines, you need them to! Heck, I use to convert all my cars to SS lines before I knew better.
DepakoteMeister
It is true but is an upgrade for new life in an old car.
You aren't gonna get oem brake lines, so find nice part store ones.
on the past 3 cars that i have done goodridge lines on, i have consistently had issues with air being pulled through the threads where the old fittings meet the new line. Only solution ive been able to come up with to prevent this and get a true airless bleed is to use loctite 567 thread sealer (with a specific compatibility for use with brake fluids). I know that its typically not the recommended procedure but ive been doing it now on all brake line fittings for years with fantastic results.
You should never fully depress a brake pedal during a job for any reason. If the MS piston moves to far out of the normally worn bore it can flip the seals causing a leak.
Eric you're going to have to go with a more aggressive pad compound to really change the brake feel, the lines definitely contribute to the feel but kinda need to be coupled with a better pad. Parts store pads don't really cut it in the braking department. I came up with a motto. "Built to last, not to stop". Try a street performance pad like a Hawk HPS or similar.
Hi Eric, I found fairly similar results to you when swapping to Braided Brake lines from the same Manufacturer.
Ultimately I found they worked better very under hard braking, other than that "possibly" a sharper pedal. But like you, I replaced old lines and fluid.
Not quite a night and day difference.
I also found the fitment was not quite to OE standards.
Thanks Eric nice videos. :-)
My comments:
1-ALWAYS wash out all the areas that got in contact with brake fluid. After a couple of years you'll appreciate the difference.
2-When replacing old OEM brake lines the option of steel braided can make some sense, otherwise it's no worth at all. Exception to sports/heavy loads (trailer) use, but on your grocery getter or commuter car is trowing money away.
3-When you got the brakes cherry red :-) than you feel the difference.
Main point for sports dry driving YES. For wet, ice, snow, generally slippery conditions stick with normal hoses, gives much better control. Did you ever wonder why the manufacturers stick to "normal" hoses?? ;-)
fuck yeah. Best upgrade for the money just cause of the feel. And that adds to control. Which adds to avoiding a wreck. I love my ss lines. Goodridge also.
Wow! I was literally just looking into getting the Goodridge lines for my TSX.
Great video, as always!
+Akshay Patel I would. I'm actually happy with the result.
EricTheCarGuy Thanks for the feedback! It'll be an interesting summer project, for sure.
EricTheCarGuy I just ordered the kit for my car...plan on installing them in the next few weeks and will update with results!
+Akshay Patel Cool. Good luck.
+EricTheCarGuy They were installed yesterday, and I seem to be experiencing the same issues you had, where the brake pad is still a bit squishy. Some hard braking seemed to tighten up the pedal feel, but it isn't hugely noticeable. I still have to break in my new pads and rotors, too, so that might be causing my issues... Hopefully I'll find a parking lot of some sort that will allow me to fix my issues (night time at the university usually is the best time, actually haha).
I admit I may have missed something on the topic. Having said that I'm sure ever since hydraulic brake where introduced on motor vehicles the flexible brake lines lines have had braided steel wire reinforcing layers. Show us a test that shows the after market lines have a higher failure pressure. Take the rubber covering off an OEM live and measure how much the OD increase at certain pressure that coincides with real world brake use, comare that to the OD increase of the after market line at the same pressure. The only pluseI see to the after market line is that the outer most wire reinforcement layer isn't covered by rubber layer So it's easier to see if there a problem with the outermost wire reinforcing layer. In my experience it's more liking corrosion inside the metal tubing line will cause a brake failure, not OEM quality flexible lines. This channel has many videos where I learned a new tip or resolve a kink or two, but there are those like this on that leave with nah.
Great videos you have and making. great tips always..
+christoffer1973 Thanks!
The pedal feel will be more consistent and therefore more predictable.
I recently had a StopTech brake line fail after 3 years, 8 months, 109k miles of use. It was discovered on a lower speed stop. At higher speeds, it may not have stopped in time.
All of the Goodridge lines I’ve ever had seem to be fine even after many years. Starting to consider if I need to replace them periodically (based on time?), regardless of make.
that transmission in reverse is the coolest thing i have heard all day
so I had a 2002 Subaru impreza and I did the brake lines, rotors and pads. The pedal was cut down drastically. felt like a different car and hated at first but after few days loved it.
same with hydrolic clutch lines. so much better with braided
Nice editing. Like all the tool sounds :)
that's a great shot of installing the "clips" - its been bothering me how to do this
I would say the main contribtor to the improvement was that the friction material gets more coarse when you do a bit of heavier braking with ABS.
Regarding the feel, well I think there are different experiences. Jason from Engineering Explained actually also has a video on such brake lines and he pretty much made a point that steel lines alone will hardly have any effect. Because the rubber lines also have large amount of metal strings in them to make them strong.
+Markus Krause With the old ones being original, it was probably still a good idea.
Doubtlessly. Although in the video they looked really good for being 1993's!
Markus Krause
Yeah, you're right. Either they were high quality and had a good life, or they have been replaced. Usually, by that age and several years sooner, a Honda needs at least one new one. Probably whichever side parks towards the sun more (more heating and cooling from day to night ages the rubber).
from my limited experience actually making hoses at a dayco plant and dealing with reinforced hoses for cars including brake lines and iirc power steering ones; those tiny hoses are extra thick and didn't have metal threading, but did have thread reinforcement in the middle of the thick hose (was white, fabric-like string, not steel wire). So they aren't thin walled hoses like your coolant system, they are small, but maybe 1/4" thick or so with a much smaller hole than you would assume with the fiber reinforcement. Good enough for mass production and safety (this company was working on improved quality/longevity to get/hold on to Japanese car manufacturer contracts as they have a specific ppm acceptable failure rate to even consider your bid, as people don't blame the hose maker, they blame the car maker for something like a hose defect). So I do agree that this 'mod' is more placebo for a person putting around in a luxury car vs someone that does autocross/track usage or just drives ridiculously (and probably dangerously) on public roads and highways (I get it, I did stupid stuff in my teens and experienced severe brake fade in a used car trying to slow down from a triple digit speed for a car that pulled out far, far in front of me).
So, do it for fun, because you love cars and tinkering/upgrading stuff ... not because its going to make you stop any sooner in normal driving conditions or even an emergency brake/swerve situation at normal speeds. Your car can be just transportation, or an extension of yourself; do what you want! (within reason and definitely with consideration of the safety of others around you ... including both their person and property) I only mention things like this because I've almost been rear ended/swiped going 10+ over speed limit (80+ mph) and idiots who think an interstate is a race track going 100+ in their psuedo sports cars or even trucks/suvs. Take it to a track, assholes; I don't need to get flipped at 85 mph because you think you are some spirit animal of your favorite race driver. Go masturbate or something before getting on the roads if you are that angsty and depressed.
Hydraulic lines always have one or more braids to reinforce/limit expansion - cut an old hose open and you'll see it all. Steel typically, and sometimes one or even two extra layers of nylon is what provides the strength. I like jacketed better than naked braid [as was installed here] as it cleans up easier/collects less grime, and usually is less trouble on swaging. it's more topic than anyone wants to get into, but pedal travel is mainly dictated by hose/line i.d. If you change specs [to a higher pressure rated hose let's say], yes you can get rid of some softness but the cost comes at flexibility - be careful there, as taking a hose past it's minimum bend radius can be a premature failure down the road. Sometimes you see mix of hard line and hose on a system that seems like more trouble that it was worth, and that may be to make sharp corners the hose should not service in addition to providing easy fastening points for install.
If your brake line nut is stripped or stuck to the brake hose, go to Napa and get their in-line brake flare tool, and buy a new section of brake line with the correct end flare for your hoses. Cut off one end of the new section and cut the brake line on the car. Make your flares on the brake lines. Use a double flare union (the tool creates double flares) and tighten it down.
Not a good idea for exceptionally rusty brake lines but if the line is good and the end is just screwed up this is a much safer alternative than compression fittings which most people usually do.
+Zach Grounds Yep, compression fittings in brake lines is bad juju... Rust? That's what salt belt lines are made of... I use Ni-Copp or Cunifer line if possible. Flares EASY, bends easy and doesn't rot off like steel. It's a bit more up front but not needing to replace the lines every 5 years or less is a great thing.
OMG I was so excited about getting some steel lines to improve the "bite" on my brakes, but what a honest opinion! I guess I'll try slamming on my brakes instead if that's what it really is. Also I have a question, how does bleeding it when the car is on helped? I wish I had known that if it gives a better result.
nice honest video, apparently the master cylinder seal can go bad if the brake pedal is floored. I think an automative pressure bleeder would be a good addition to your tools to prevent this from happening.
+farerse Yeah, pushing it into the end of the bore isn't a good thing. Push the piston down just enough to block the ports and you would be OK. Not sure why he doesn't have a pressure bleeder. They make it a LOT simpler to bleed or flush the system.
+farerse The seal gets damaged inside of the master cylinder only if there is corrosion there. Usually the pedal never travels that far so it can never remove the corrosion and make it smooth like the rest of the bore during daily use. It wont damage a new part.
The reinforcement in old style flexible brake hose is incomparable to SS braided brake hose in stopping the expansion of diameter of the rubber hose.The firmness in diameter when stepping means more force towards the brake cylinder and therefore better stop in vehicle.
I believe most rubber brake lines have a warped steel wire jacket as one of the layers, rubber is much too flexible on their own and will have some sort of jacket to do this very job. braided steel covers have a considerable amount of expansion on their own probably slightly better than stock I would hope.
I was told about the steel warped stock brake lines by my grandfather who was a mechanic for most of his life, mostly on VWs. I never cut a brake line apart so i cant say if it is still true or not.
What's the point having more brake power if it's already enough to lock wheels or trigger ABS anyway?
Its not improving brake performance its improving the brake feel
Nice Camera work/editing Brian!
+mrexecutive1 I do the editing. Brian just does the camera.
Well, old rubber tend to flex more, and they can also lose pieces inside (maybe those steel hoses also can?) and sort of block the hose, so that the break stays on a bit etc etc. So you would get a much better feel if that was the case. But anyway, now they wont get old in the same way. And I also agree, this is a very good "mod".
Eric, your new camera setup is awesome!
Difference won't be so much the initial bite or travel, but it will be a less spongy feel to the pedal under harder braking. Under hard braking the rubber hose will expand slightly where the steel braided line will expand much less, sending more fluid to the caliper hence better feel.
I'm no expert but I have seen it here on RUclips in a couple vids of a diagnostic tool that can bleed the abs system. The vids described it was to bring back pedal height and feel. May see if that can help you get your solid pedal back. You'll have to rebleed the calipers again but should help. Keep it up with the great vids!
That works on some newer vehicles. On older ones like this not as much. Thanks for the suggestion.
My hats off, great videos, even when you don't predict correct, you don't try to fudge it to look like u did, thanks
Eric, you're so much funnier now you used to always crack jokes but now there one after another in these new videos lmao
2:08 I need to learn that kung fu.
+Velocity Labs A name update is in order.....EricTheNinjaCarGuy :-)
+Velocity Labs Nice to see you in the comments Erik. BTW, I gave you some love in my live show last week. Hope you see some subs from it. Was great working with you in ATL. Hope we can work together again sometime.
+EricTheCarGuy It would have been fun to cut the old lines to look at the cross section. They might have a layer of strong nylon reinforcement kind of like a steel belted radial tire. They might be almost as stiff as the steel braided lines. Cool video and as always, thanks.
+John Ferguson Many people have mentioned cutting open an old line. I wish I had thought of that when I made the video. However, I believe I mentioned that the results might be the same with new rubber lines. Thanks for your input.
I have that identical work light. Love it. Great video
@5:30 it looked like you could have pried that original hose clamp off of the old brake line and used it on the new one. It's a shame they did not include new clamps with the kit.
master cylinder brace helps as well.
they are a great, cheap upgrade!!! best $100 I ever spent on a performance part.
To close off the circuits to stop the system from bleeding out when you disconnect the lines, the brake pedal only has to be depressed 1 to 1.5 inch. (just lay on the brakes) not all the way down. when you use a light enough aid (i use my warning triangle in it's box) the spring of the pedal wil hold that to the seat throughout the job.
Thanks for doing a honest review of this steel braided brake line... I always thought they were manly used to improve endurance in the brakes. After this, i'm pretty convince it's a nice upgrade, but if you really want to improve the brakes, you might have better luck if you upgrade the pads, rotary and piston (which is not a easy task on certain vehicule)
Do all 3 mate you won't regret when you need them
New brake fluid can do the same thing. But on a 20yo car the brake hoses are ready for replacement anyway.
Excellent video Eric!
First thing I do on a street bike is replace just the front brake lines to steel braided. They offer a firmer feel then stock, but where they shine is when you are hard on your brakes, things heat up, the steel braided lines work better when hot then stock. Stock are mushy.
often the master cilinder is mounted to a weak flexing firewall. This also produces mushy brake feel. If this is the case you should see the master cilinder move a bit when somebody else pushes on the brake pedal.
+jfv65 I've never thought about that. Cool.
Some cars have braces available to prevent this, mostly ones that are often used for racing of some sort.
That reverse noise from the transmission. Sounds like an air raid siren.
I use a driver gold club to press the brake pedal down when I am checking the brake lights.
The head of the club is on the pedal and the handle is against the back of the seat
-----------------------------
Braking performance may improve since the rubber hoses expand under use there might be a small drop in hydraulic pressure where as since the steel braided lines don't expand the hydraulic pressure loss is pretty much 0 so there calipers can stop the car a little bit better
I would add that many people aren't aware of the importance of simply flushing the brake fluid of a car also. I don't know Eric's thoughts on that, but many technicians in my town think it's snake oil, which is unfortunate. look up the word hygroscopic.
Brake fluid is clear like water when it's new. when it starts to suck in atmospheric moisture, it begins to rust the hard lines from the inside out, so when it looks like strong coffee it does so because your looking at liquefied rust in the system.
Brake fluid, when it's still good, will keep the brake pedal from going too far down. When it goes dark and has moisture in it, the pedal easily goes closer to the floor. This is because you can compress water into a smaller space, but not pure brake fluid.
A regular customer of mine had a large older Buick. She brought the car to me because the brake pedal was hitting the floor. She had also just spent $1200 having all the brakes replaced front and rear. I called the other shop and confirmed they bled out the air at each corner as well. I asked if they flushed her fluid, the owner said that was bs and he just knew it wouldn't do a thing for the car.
I flushed all the old fluid out and all new fluid in at each corner. The brake pedal barely had 2 inches of travel after that. My customer swore I put all new parts of a better quality in, I told her it was just new fluid. She was amazed.
I flush brake fluid about every 2 years on my car. This is also why my hard lines don't rust through on the frame rails. I'm a big believer in this for excellent reasons.
If you look at a sample of brake fluid removed from your car, like with a turkey baster, it should be translucent. If you can not see through it, then do a complete flush. Make notes on how far the pedal travels before and after.
This is all an easy sell if you've just did a total front and rear brake job. Did you start to wonder about the quality if parts you used? Do a brake fluid flush instead. Notice a dramatic improvement? Good.
+Brian Genter
Actually, water is incompressable too....why it's not uses in braking systems, and why old brake fluid containing absorbed water is not particularly to do with corrosion. When water gets hot, it expands..... imagine using your brakes on a decent, the heat from the rotors transfers to the pistons, further heating the water causing more expansion!
What else happens to water when it gets hot? It liberates steam, and one ml of water can become 70ml of steam at 100 centigrade, brakes generate significantly higher temperatures!
Old braking fluid does indeed contain moisture, which liberates compressible gasses that makes brakes feel spongy.
TL;DNR , you can't compress water!
I always attach the brake line to the caliper first, then route it with a even non twisting flow to the hex hole in the bracket, it will find the best position in the hex hole naturally. This insures that the brake line has no twisting tension in the line at all. Just my method.
Eric: how does that break pedal feel Brian?
Brian: manly.
Eric: manly, I like manly.
😂😂😂😂😂
Interesting video. Lots of useful information. I think the product is good and worth installing. You just have to have reasonable expectations about what it can and cannot do.
+Kevin Hornbuckle Precisely the point. Thanks for the comment.