GIVE US A PROPER WINNER! The Story of (And Opinions on) NASCAR’s Overtime Rule.
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- In Europe, if a race is supposed to be 60 laps, it's going to be 60 laps barring something going so wrong it needs to be abandoned. NASCAR on the other hand... Well they're getting a finish. So they came up with a solution to ensure a green flag finish and to make sure people go home having had a race to the end.
It's a confusing thing, to be honest. Because one is a process, the other is a physical thing used for something else. At least now in 2023 it has a proper name.
But what is this green-white-chequer thing and why are they using it? Let's have a look.
Enjoy! And remember to like and subscribe for more!
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Like I've said on Twitter and Community- Terribly sorry, the standard hasn't been good enough lately.
Hey this is total BS! I have been meaning to compliment you on how fantastic your off season vids have been. You've made the 95 days between Abu Dhabi and testing today enjoyable. Don't be so hard on yourself my dude
What? Don't be hard on yourself! You make great videos. You've taught this petrolhead of 5 decades a lot. A few mistakes or misunderstandings aren't a big deal. Chin up, mate, and carry on teaching us.
@@y_fam_goeglyd Millwards Army👍😃
You what now? Standards? Content is great, so… who cares?
Don’t apologize! Your content is great!! Me and my dad watch your content all the time and he’s the only person in my group of friends/family where we can really geek out about motorsport drivers etc (he’s not really a computer guy) his era of cars is carbureted, oil spitting, loud and leaded stuff. You really give us something to talk about between work and life. That is what makes me excited for and what it should be about! Cheers from Dallas, Texas USA
I would race 500 miles and I would race 500 more, just to be the man that tries to do two laps and race forevermore
Da dada da
This needs to be pinned
You're going the distance, going for speed 😆
Fun fact: in 1974 Nascar shortened most of its race distances due to the energy crisis. But despite that year’s Daytona race being only 450 miles (180 laps) long, it was STILL called the Daytona 500-heck, the first lap was called “lap 21”
Didn't they make the duels 20 laps and basically say "well they ran the first twenty laps in the qualifying races..."?
As David Land said on a recent video, if this rule existed in 1998,. Earnhardt would have been dumped by Jeremy Mayfield on the restart.
The pit lane isn’t closed during overtime, people just don’t want to pit to give up track position unless they have to. Also it was introduced in the third tier Truck series when that series was created in the 90’s.
I may not always agree with you on bop but I never miss a video. Don't beat yourself up over tiny perceived mistakes your channel is great
What was the mistake? I didn't notice any
It's alright. I don't expect people to agree with me on stuff like that. The discussion is what I'm looking for.
Someone actually unsubscribed over that, and it's like... Why?
@@AidanMillward you're going to have that keep up the good work. And I do agree with bop on certain series. I watch some racing series because I want to see drivers compete on as equal as possible terms. And some series i watch I don't even care who the drivers are I'm there to watch a team or a manufacturer prove they are the best.
@@AidanMillward ...the hell is it all about, anyway? Some of us don't use Twitter...
As my family usually calls it- it's not Green/White/Checkered, it's usually Green/White/Wreckers with how many times it still ends under a yellow flag on the last lap.
There was a 2018 Daytona Xfinity Series Race that had 5 "overtime" restarts. Extended the race something like 13 additional laps. Pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider the time it takes to clean up some of those wrecks.
Some clarifications
The *green white checkered rule* (we spell it differently than other English countries because _reasons_ I guess) was adopted as a result of racing back to the line being banned. Prior to this, the leaders would race to the yellow flag near the end of the race under the assumption that it would end under caution. The green-white-checkered rule came about starting in 2004 to compensate for the fact that the field could not race to the caution anymore. It was originally unlimited attempts until the Craftsman Truck Series went to Gateway for the "Missouri-Illinois Dodge Dealers Ram Tough 200" (yes, that was the actual race name) and proceeded to try a GWC _four consecutive times_ before they finally finished the race. (Two of those crashes saw a drive flip over onto their side.) This marking the first time the GWC rule had actually been used, NASCAR made an amendment that restricted it to just one attempt. Jump to 2010, and it was decided to bump up the limit to 3 attempts.
In 2016, a controversial rule called "the overtime line" was introduced. Fans hated it, and so by late 2017 it was dropped. Crucially, they reintroduced the idea of unlimited attempts, which we have kept ever since.
The obvious problem comes with how oval racing is. The cars are much closer, and NASCAR has gained a reputation of being inconsistent with when they throw the caution (or if they even _do_ throw the caution.) You can end up with very close finishes that are determined by video evidence, but this obviously creates problems as there is no physical point that the drivers race to; essentially as soon as the button is pushed, the race is over, and any hesitation in pushing that button can have a major impact on who finishes where. What did not help the situation was that NASCAR has designed the 2023 car in such a way that the rear bumpers are curved. NASCAR has seen "bump drafting" for decades, so the introduction of these bumpers means it is a lot easier to spin somebody out. (If you watch the highlights you will see a LOT of moments where a guy nearly gets wrecked by just a simple tap that would not have caused any trouble last year.)
I feel like the most obvious solution is to simply let them race back to the line on the final lap, regardless of where the accident happens. (This is assuming that there are no cars stranded near the finish line, in which case the yellow would have to come out, but the odds of that happening aren't as likely as you might think.)
Also, I think I need to clarify pit road policies.
When a caution comes out, pit road is closed (and this is indicated by a red light at pit entrance that can be seen from the racetrack). If you are on pit road when it is closed, you have to drive straight through; stopping for service will result in a penalty. (An exception applies if you are already within your designated pit box, in which case you are allowed to continue/finish service to the car.) Once the safety car picks up the leader, the field will usually follow for a couple of laps until everyone has lined up. Once this happens, and assuming there are no obstacles near pit entry, NASCAR will open pit road for drivers on the lead lap; the following lap, pit road will be opened to _all_ cars, including backmarkers. Fuel still plays a big role with GWCs, as pitting will cost you a lot of track position. (Fresh tires can prove to be a major trump card in some scenarios... it depends on the track.) If a crash is bad enough, they do red flag the race so that way drivers aren't running around for half an hour burning fuel.
To keep cars from cutting through pit road under yellow to gain an advantage, there is a second set of lights at the end of pit road. The light will turn red when the pace car reaches the end of pit road, and it stays red until the line of cars following the pace car have all passed. A designated stop line marks the location of where pit road ends - crossing this line while the light is red will result in a penalty. (It should be noted that the rule is held a little loosely - as long as you do not pass the line maliciously, they will generally give you a little bit of lee-way. The reason for this is that the red light is triggered automatically, and as such it can have a tendency to cause it to "flicker" on and off.)
I've mentioned penalties several times. In the cases I've talked about, a penalty is simply dropping to the very end of the field before the restart. That may not sound harsh, until you consider that there are 35-40 cars that will now be in front of you... and that is not an easy thing to navigate, especially near the end of a race!
As for the argument that it is called the Daytona 500 and not the Daytona 520: there is a reason the rule is often referred to as "overtime". It's a bit similar to some sports, where if there is a tie at the end of the game then it may have an extra amount of time added to try and get the stalemate to break. The other sports don't have any problems doing this because they are not running off of distance. On the other end of the spectrum, races have been called due to rain, and yet nobody complains about them running the "Daytona 272.5" (the shortest running of the race, which was in 2003) due to weather. (For the record, there _is_ a minimum distance that needs to be met, and this is generally the half-way point of the scheduled race distance.)
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. : )
We spell it “checkered” because Noah Webster, the same reason we spell it “center,” “theater,” and “color.”
This guy does an awesome job of explaining everything. I just came here to say that the number in the race has always been sketchy. The fall(When there was only 1 race) at Phoenix was a 500k race, some older Busch series races were "500s" but really it was half for the Busch cars and half for the late models. So the sticking point of it being the "Daytona 500" has never really meant much esp as the above poster pointed out rain shortens races and even fuel crises
@@wickedj3 Phoenix is a strange one. The track is 1 mile long, but they only do 312 laps. The reason they still call the races "500" is because 312 miles rounds out to roughly 500 kilometers. (Google says 502.115 km to be exact.) It's one of only two tracks on the NASCAR calendar that does this. (The other is the Charlotte Road Course, advertised as "The Roval" due to using a layout similar to the Daytona Road Course).
Everywhere else either counts the miles or the laps.
"It's a bit similar to some sports, where if there is a tie at the end of the game then it may have an extra amount of time added to try and get the stalemate to break."
Except that a yellow flag finish is not a tie/draw. So there is no stalemate.
And in the unlikely event of a tie (timing and photo can't resolve winner) I doubt that they would add extra laps.
@@nep8463 I was responding to the comparison of extra time in other sports. Which is to break ties.
If the yellow flag running at the end of the race is not counted, why are the yellow flags during the rest of the race?
Do they have green-white-yellow finishes for the end of stages?
It would be interesting to know what percentage of G-W-C finishes ended under yellow anyway.
If only F1 could have figured out the GWC for a certain race in 2021. It should also be noted that pit lane will be opened before the green is waved again & under a closed pit road a team could come & get fuel but would be penalized by having to start of the rear of the longest line. I love the GWC as it mean generally i'm going to see a race to the finish not a parade because some dude in 30th spun out with 5 laps to go
I loved the fact that when you said "It's the Indy 500, not the Indy 505, unless you're Jacques Villeneuve." For a second I wondered. Will Aidan throw the 1995 winner J.V. in there B/C he actually did have to run (and make up) those two laps due to USAC's over zealous penalties for pit lane infractions? And, by Jove you did it! I should never have doubted your all encompassing racing knowledge!!! That's why I Love your channel
B/C it's as real as you can get on RUclips. Cheers Mate! P.S. Even though USAC has long been out of sanctioning the Indy 500 doesn't mean the the new sanctioning body isn't prone to bonehead pit lane penalties. Just this past year Scott Dixon, who was the class of the field, had certain (almost) victory taken from him when he came in too hot, locked up the brakes then came in to his pit in a safe way. He was assessed
a drive-thru penalty which a but "killed" the race for him. Needless to say, I was none too happy about that. But, to Dixie's credit he took it like the true champion that he is. (But I'm still pissed about the whole thing.)
If I remember things right, fans throwing stuff at the track after the Pepsi 400 and after Talladega 2004 was more related to who didn't win the race - Dale Jr. And while I can understand this being maybe a little bit of a stretch in the case of the Daytona race, I am more than sure that this was at least partially the reason for why people went full caveman mode after Jeff Gordon's victory in 'Dega. It was basically the most hated driver at the time defeating the fan favourite.
Well, there was who didn't AND who DID win the race... It was more than the Dega fans could accept. If they didn't throw beer & chicken legs at Jeff, they would probably have thrown up in their mouths... I guess some did... quite a mess, probably.
It was the Pepsi 400.
When us Americans get upset over a bad call by officials in any sporting series we just grab whatever and throw it like it’s nothing. If you want to see something like this just search up bottlegate.
I was at Talladega in spring 2007. Jeff Gordon won and all of the Dale Jr. fans were throwing anything they could at Gordon's car on his victory lap. Glad I didn't get a full can of beer in the back of my head.
Honestly, best explanation of nascar just essentially making it up as they go. Do all of it to extend and still get the same result. But im an american who likes soccer so im good with it being 500 miles and thats it along with draws in season, ha
So much of the history and lore of oval racing is caught up in finishes that the end of a race is a very different thing when compared to a road course. A road course race starts with moments of drama and then becomes about heroic moves before finishing off as a matter of endurance. Oval racing is the opposite starting off as a matter of endurance before becoming a race of heroic moves and then when the cards align ends in moments of drama. No F1 fan would ever accept the field being spread out and the elimination of the standing start. It is the moment the heart beat climbs and palms sweat. For NASCAR this is what the ending of the race often provides. There are of course exceptions in both cases but I believe this is the overriding race flow for each series and shows why nascar has taken such a step to preserve the end of the race.
My personal opinion? Either the original version of the rule (one attempt, next flag ends the race) or the three-attempt variant were the ideal balance, in this case. Either way, people know how much fuel to put in their car if they don't want to gamble, there's a bona fide attempt to get a green-flag finish for the fans at the track, and by limiting the number of attempts at it, you also keep the cost to team owners (in the form of wrecked race cars) under control and the total length to a reasonable approximation of the advertised distance.
Ironically, the "unlimited attempts" rule was the version used in the initial testing of the idea in NASCAR's Craftsman Truck Series, and met with a great deal of derision, particularly after a particular race required five attempts to get a green-flag finish. This resulted in, the next year, the rule being standardized across all three National Touring Series, but with the three-attempt limit...
Wait so I wonder if unlimited attempts was a failed experiment, why the heck did Nascar go back to it?
Hey man I'm glad to have been able to help clear things up. As a fan of your stuff man I'm happy to lend my nascar mind to help
Now explain the playoffs. 🤣
@@AidanMillward wanna send me some vodka because that's the ONLY WAY I can explain it ;-)
@@TheBigDawgSLI think vodka and other stronger stuff is the exact reason how they got the idea
@@dylanzrim3635 nah....it's how us fans handle their bullshit
I know I say that as an American, and a hard-core NASCAR fan but I do think overtime has a place in the sport. Now that doesn’t mean I think we should be doing unlimited overtimes or anything like that. I honestly think only one attempt should be allowed. Gotta try to reduce the carnage. Also, it’s not always if the leader has clean track they can race back to the line. If someone hits hard enough, or in the case of Sam Mayer flips over they will call it no matter what although I do think they shouldn’t when they come out of turn 4 because then what’s the point?
As Nascar was the first motorsport I followed as a child, when I first started watching other ones I was surprised that a race can actually end under safety car because I was such a creature of habit.
While teams do differentiate in taking more fuel in case of a GWC finish or not taking extra fuel, but risking an extra pit stop, the pits does actually open before an overtime restart past the advertised distance of the race.
Part of it is the fan base doesn't fully trust NASCAR Officials to be fully unimpeachable - before Electronic Timing, there was a long and sordid history of convienent "Scoring Errors" that just happened to work out in a sponsor's favor, or in one infamous example, prevent a race riot. African American driver Wendell Scott had his first win taken away by such a "scoring error" to prevent a race riot (and then had it restored a couple weeks later), the first Cup race at Talladega had a scoring error that helped Chrysler stave off embarrassment, and both Richard Petty and Darrell Waltrip had wins taken away due to these "scoring errors" (although The King also benefited from scoring errors gifting him wins). When suspiciously times cautions either favored the then hated Jeff Gordon or screwed fan favorites like Dale Jr and Mark Martin, fans threw shit on the track like they had just seen WCW's Poke of Doom, so NASCAR instituted the Green White Checker rule in part to try to maintain some sort of credibility.
I'm not a fan of green-white-checker finishes. But I'm also not a fan of races ending under caution.
That's quite a pickle you have there.
@jay klein Yeah it has to be either one but not neither. So what would be better? Green White Checkered? Or goes to the full schedule distance but ends under yellow. Unless say with 10 laps to go or less caution laps won't count, those would be your only options.
Green/white/checker was one of the things that put me off NASCAR completely. I had already been feeling it looked more and more like wrestling on wheels, and that pretty much confirmed it.
As for the NHL, count me among the fans who would rather have ties back if the 5-minute overtime doesn't settle a regular season game, rather than go to the shootout. Much like a green/white/checker wreckfest, it's not even really the same game, so why should it settle the outcome?
For me, NASCAR could bin the stage racing and the "overtime" rule, and just go back to running a normal racing series. But the tricky bit is how to prevent a back-marker teammate from wrecking near the end of a race in order to cause a caution period and end the race under yellow.
That "not quite overtime" seems to have pervaded a number of formats. Back when Formula E ran to a clock, they went through a phase of trying to figure out how to make endings close if safety cars or Full Course Yellows meant people had lots of usable battery life. They eventually went with time added on to the end (laps added on nowadays) and it was so common, they actually managed to secure a sponsor for the announcement.
I always thought IndyCar's "just throw a red flag, get cleaned up and have one last sprint" felt fair enough, but I guess it isn't balls to the wall enough for the stock car boys.
last years indy 500 had a crash in the last few laps that would have meant the race would end under caution, they red flagged it and cleaned it up etc and then resumed racing with like 2 or 3 laps left. i think in nascar they should do a similar thing. if theres a caution with x laps left, they throw the caution and the next lap is yellow, and then the red flag to clean up the debris or whatever, throw the yellow again and then go green with x minus the caution laps left, and then the next flag ends the race (except for the white)
lap 1-green, (incident effectively on the green lap), lap 2-yellow flag, red flag, lap 3- yellow flag, lap 4, green
As someone who's been watching auto racing since 2013, I've slowly transitioned from being a modernist to a semi-traditionalist/purist
Green-White-Checkers do more harm than good. It's the reason why NASCAR fans complain about races turning into wreckfests at the end
Being American this is just normal and the finish of the F1 championship made sense. I do totally understand why people also hate that. I’m personally for the green white checkers or overtime in racing because I LOVE a great finish and the strategy that goes along with those finishes. People seem to think this happens every race but it doesn’t just like it wouldn’t in other forms of motorsports either
I mean the green white checkered doesn't happen in every single race. But it's a pretty sure bet that it will happen in next weekends race.
@@thejman3489 it can be track depended that’s for sure
The biggest problem with the F1 in Abu Dhabi was that it was made up on the fly. If there was a set procedure before the race it would have been easier for people to adjust to
@@joshanderson9391 that’s a good point
NASCAR peaked in popularity in 2005. Since then, they have tried anything and everything to attract new fans; things like the green-white-checker rule, the wave-around, and stage racing. The sport (among others) is trying to "create moments" by implementing the rule changes. Ultimately, it can take away from the product as a whole, which can make the rest of the race feel less important.
Maybe I'm just getting old. Cue "Back in my day..."
Like I told you on Twitter. You're the best!
Honestly, as an American, I want to love NASCAR, but it keeps throwing in dumb rule after dumb rule- the playoffs, competition cautions and stages, weird points systems, and don't even get me started on the TV direction- the lack of commentator enthusiasm, poor use of cameras, and of course running way too many commercials.
Overtime, though, is kinda in a weird spot. I like the idea of "one last chance to win" but the fact that they get as many attempts to finish as needed just makes it even more of a ridiculous slug fest. Plus what you mentioned about fuel mileage being thrown off.
If it were me, I'd do it like this. If the yellow comes out with fewer than 5 laps left (but not the last lap), I'd replace the green-white-checkered with a 5 lap shootout- one attempt. If the yellow comes back out during the shootout, that's it, the race ends, you've had your fun. Enough time to make some moves, and not so little that the entire field is going for banzai passes that just end up causing big wrecks. It also makes the drivers a bit more cautious, because you want to finish higher up, but do it wrong and that chance is over.
I'd also think about being more careful in regards to yellow flags, both in the shootout and in races in general- we don't need to reset the field if it's a single car spin that doesn't even hit the wall and drives away with no problem.
Formula E does an Added Laps thing, depending on how long we're under Full Course Yellow or the Safety car up to a maximum of 7 Laps. If there is a safety car in the last 5 laps then no added laps are added. This is to keep the energy management a key element of the strategy. This was bought in after the disaster that was Valencia 2021 where barely half the cars finished due to energy calculations by the FIA and teams not lining up (They used to remove usable energy from the drivers),
I wish they’d change it from two overtime laps to one on superspeedways (Daytona/Talladega) and road courses
Interesting you bring IndyCar up, because fans were up in arms when they didn't red flag the Indy 500 in 2020 to clean up after Spencer Pigot crashed, and then go back racing. Granted, those who were complaining were expecting a battle between Sato and Scott Dixon that we were never actually going to get.
Then, in Detroit the following year, they red flagged the Saturday race late because of a (relatively benign, if memory serves) crash late enough in the race that letting it remain under yellow would've ended the race under yellow.
The problem at Indy was the Pit Lane Attenuator was destroyed and would have taken 50-60 minutes to rebuild. If it was something that would have taken 5-10 minutes they would have fixed it and gone green for the 2 laps that was left. Detroit was an easy fix so they threw the red flag, fixed the corner, and finished the race.
I'm firmly in the for green white checkers thing. Everyone wants to see the race end under green, if your for going farther or not. As far as I can tell the drivers and crews are alright with going farther. And it can produce some good racing every once in a while. Even if it is a wreck fest at the super speedways.
I’m okay with limited overtime. But not on restricted Horse Power tracks like Daytona, Talladega, or Atlanta. Pack racing and level playing field leads to too many crashes. An owner can lose millions of dollars in one race because of wrecked cars.
I think that the overtime rule was… fine. I say was because with the new rules, overtime can go on forever if a crash happens every lap, and that can ruin a race sometimes. I was fine with the rule when it was just 3 attempts since we could get a finish without having the race being drawn out for too long ( I started watching when they had already implemented this overtime rule). Also if you want to talk about entertainment then look no further than the stage and playoff system, I think stages break up the flow of a race instead of achieving it’s goal of closer racing, I get especially annoyed when it happens in road courses. As for playoffs it might be more entertaining but man it’s such an unfair and rigged system that has robbed drivers of championships and I wish they would scrap it!
I mean given how the system was scrapped over and over again in the late 2000s to 2010s, the sanctioning is probably keeping it for a while
I tend to be in the minority, but I believe that everything within reason should be done to not have a race finish with a long line of cars following a pace/safety car. 30 extra laps or miles is not within reason. A single green white checker is.
2020: Kevin Harvick "Regular Season Champ"
Overall champ: Chase Elliot, who was barely relevant until the end of the season
Joke system. Playoffs work for baseball and sports with balls and eliminations of those teams who don't do good enough. In NASCAR, everybody races, the system is convoluted and anybody can be champion if you just wait til the end to score big
I am an American, but not a NASCAR fan and I think this is something F1 should strongly consider. To continue beating the dead horse that is Abu Dhabi '21, were a rule like this in place everyone (other than the driver that came in P2) would have been satisfied. The FIA/Liberty would have gotten their race to the checkered flag without rushed altering the lapped procedure. Hamilton/Merc would have known there would be a green flag lap and had to consider that for tires, and the fans would have gotten a no holds barred drag race to the finish from the two contenders.
Yes it's a significant rule change, but a win for almost everyone.
Personally love the green & white checkered, even though it worsened the result of my favourite driver at Daytona. It stops a feeling of being short changed while not completely ‘artificially’ manipulating the race to finish under green Abu Dhabi ‘21 style. I’m also a big fan of the BTCC extra laps rule. Both would benefit any lap counting race series, including F1, imo. Even with the cons of a GWC, I just feel they’re worth it in exchange for an actual race to end.
In NASCAR everyone pits under yellow because of the abundance of yellow flags. This usually means everyone is hitting pit road at the same time. It is very easy to gain or lose 2, 5, or even 10 spots on pit road. NASCAR can just throw a caution quiet literally just to change the outcome of a race. And they do it way more than they you would think. This very much falls under artificially manipulating the race.
@@thejman3489 I was talking about GWC though. Pit road is closed during the GWC/overtime period. If we were talking about stage cautions, then yeah, that artificially messes with the outcome, but we're not as the topic was GWC.
@@markcraggs6471 Pit road is closed when a caution flag is thrown regardless of what lap it is. Once everyone is regrouped NASCAR will open pit road for lead lap cars and the very next lap will be open for cars not on the lead lap. Pit road then remains open until the next yellow is thrown. This procedure does not change for overtime.
Also I was referring to towards the end of the race when NASCAR will throw a yellow just to get their restart with just a few laps to go. Even if they are not hitting pit road it bunches up the field and gives drivers a chance to steal a win from a driver that was far ahead of everyone else. Again falls under artificial manipulation of the race.
I like ending under caution simply because it's unusual and quirky. Engineering a finish is unacceptably artificial for most road circuit viewers, especially in Europe. If you can't restart, tough, suck it up. Got to be real at all times. Being older and allegedly wiser as I mark 25 years watching F1, I feel like I have to be fairer and remind myself of how different series are making a different product to stand out. This has been seen with the introduction of the so-called 'duels' in Formula E qualifying. Bit silly to me, I skip it and wait for the race, but it serves a purpose. I learned new terms and conventions when finally watching a full Indycar season last year instead of just watching the 500 because of its prestige. Now I try to rationalise it by thinking of these things as different rules for different systems. After all, how many kinds of football are there? Association, Gaelic, Aussie Rules, Gridiron... Just don't copy each other, and accept that the method of finish is or isn't important, and hopefully you're golden. Age has hopefully taught me to go 'oh, that's different, neat', instead of 'that's wrong, stupid losers, what a ripoff'. This is perhaps one of the big differences between oval and circuit, apart from 'iT's JuSt TuRnInG lEfT', obviously.
As an American, NASCAR went down the rabbit hole of sewage suckage 20 years ago.
Then why are commenting if you hate it then?
I was at Daytona 530 this year it was very entertainment I enjoy the green and white checkers. It had a different element to the end of the race.🏁
There is a saying in NASCAR that cautions create cautions. This is especially true when it's the final laps of the race and everyone frantically tries to gain positions, or defend their position, and the pack racing of superspeedways just adds to the chaos factor. I think races must finish at the designated time/ laps/ distance. Yes maybe they finish under yellow flags but well, that's just part of racing. NASCAR is the WWE of motor sports to be honest. Everything is for the show and they sacrifice sporting legitimacy to achieve that. Stage cautions, overtimes and the worst of the bunch, playoffs.
I'm 58 years old. NASCAR lost me when they put wings on the rear decks. They've done nothing since to bring me back. Stage racing? Pick a lane? Sequential shift. Whatever.
Sorry if the sport turned you off sir
The COT was hideous and stupid.
I'd wager that current NASCAR would like to have enough people in the stands to throw crap on the track like back in '02 & '03...
I know lots of other motorsport bases would look down on this practice as "gimmicky" or "just for entertainment". But I actually think lots of series could benefit from having the overtime rule. As long as all the teams know the rules and there is a set process, I think it just adds to the excitement of the race. It always pains me to see a race end under yellow.
Yes but it's even more shitty to see someone get their win stolen because they just decided to add laps to the race. Seriously NASCAR will that caution at the end of the race if an ant crawls across the track just to get that restart with a few laps to go.
@@thejman3489 Yeah, I definitely see what you mean by this. I think that has been a bit of a problem in NASCAR in years past, but I do believe it has gotten some better. As long as the officials aren't actively looking for a reason to make it a GWC I think it works.
Sometimes I don’t think NASCAR knows what they are doing. Keep up the great work.
Problems that wouldn't exist if the spectators could get over themselves.
It usually screws over drivers I hate it, so the race ended under yellow, big deal! And it wasn't as bad when they still raced back to the caution.
for me this rule as the third dumbest rule nascar ever did (beaten only by stage racing and the playoffs) like you've said in the video the 500 is about the miles (in bristol the 500 is for the number of laps) and every motorsport in the world (including indycar) finishes at the laps originally schedule to be completed being completed, one example of how it is at least unfair? tony kanaan would not have a indy 500 if this rule existed in indycar
This rule is kinda of a grey area for me tbh
And Mark Martin would finally have won the Daytona 500 if green white checkers never existed.
Some years ago there was an IndyCar race on a road course where they showed the white flag for last lap, then someone decided to add a lap to the race. The broadcast played the radio messages to the leader to let him know to keep racing after the end of the lap. He would be greeted by the white flag again, presumably, then have to do the next lap for the win. This is the way I remember it, but I can't find out when or where it happened. It was probably around 20 years ago.
I can’t remember where but it was a CART/Champ Car race back when they had the 1hr 40min timed races. The flagman put the white flag out thinking that the leader wouldn’t have time to complete the lap before the clock hit 0 but race control worked out that they could.
@@99dndd Maybe that is the one I am remembering? I know it was a road course.
5:33 The NHL doesn't really continue to carry on normal play the way the MLB does. In regular season NHL games, a draw after regulation time results in one point for each team then they play a 5 minute sudden death OT period of 3v3. If no one scores in that 5 minutes, it goes to a shootout to determine which team gets the extra 1pt for the win. Only during the playoffs will they continue to play 20 minute 5v5 hockey OT periods. But they are still sudden death rules.
I have been to two races that ended in OT. Both were iconic moments, and Kentucky 2019 made me a much more engaged fan overall. Finish was awesome, nobody used their seat type of finish. Also the 2022 Coke 600. Longest race in history by distance fue to OT. The finish was better in the stands than anywhere else. I like OT from a fan perspective personally. It's not the best for teams but fans definitely win
Oh yeah the white flag isn’t used in europe. I kinda like the 1 lap remaining warning, gives that teeny bit of extra excitement. Like when kimi won last time, i was at the end of the penultimate lap ’white flag white flag’. Still gives me chills, you rememberthe tyre strategy?
The stupid thing about GWC is that it allows guys racing for 23rd to keep causing restarts and mess up the part the fans actually came to see (the race for the win). Can you imagine if other sports did that: "We're going to reset the score here in Boston because there was a flagrant foul in New Orleans"? Sounds ludicrous, doesn't it? I'd be fine with one GWC, but only the top 5 or 10 cars (depending on track size). In fact, set the points after the advertised distance and make the GWC just for bonus points and prize money. NASCAR has created a WWE fanbase that loves this crap though.....so crap is what they get.
The Daytona 500 is only 500 miles if you assume Daytona is exactly 2.5 miles long. In reality it matters where you measure the length of the lap; against the wall is a longer lap than along the yellow line. So calling it a "500-mile race" is already a rounding error.
The green-white-checkers rule makes more sense at short tracks where cautions can eat up so many laps that if you count cautions as part of the race there won't be much actual racing. It's basically the rule at local tracks that only completed green flag laps count, so a 30-lap race for a street stock series really will be 30 laps of racing. Making it two laps of green even if the caution comes out with less than 2 to go gives the drivers a chance to actually get up to speed first and do the minimum possible racing before they call it finished.
I think I'm fine with 1 overtime finish at big tracks just so we don't wind up with a situation in the Daytona 500 where maybe there's a caution with 5 to go, and the track people are like, "Oh yeah we can clean this up quick." But it takes them way longer than they figured and suddenly the race is over under yellow. It's hard to say these days if Indycar or NASCAR is more dangerous given what NASCAR has done to their cars, but I'd still say the Indy 500 ending under yellow is more acceptable given how dangerous an Indycar restart could be compared to NASCAR.
Take 2, here we go!!!
Why does this seem to happen with his channel with some regularity? Does someone at ScrewTube hate Aidan?
i'm pretty sure its take 3
@AndyFromBeaverton Aidan's time of the month.
It is free usually high quality content, mistakes happen.
@@JohnSmithShields are you trying to imply at men can have periods? if so I'd like a sex change right now! #eggirl #mtf
@@AndyFromBeaverton Cos I've been so ill lately my brain is fogged to bollocks. Blood test is saying B12 deficiency so THAT might have something to do with it...
It's the first time I've had to re-upload in while, usually it's a wrong number in the other videos
With trying to create a game “7 moment” for every race, actual “game 7” moments are not very special when they happen.
I love it. It makes watching American sport good comic relief 😆
Keep the integrity... The race should be so many miles. It should go that many miles and then it ends
My whole problem with the "it's for the show" angle is this: You've got cars racing in close proximity at 200 _freaking_ miles per hour. If you're having to try and gin up excitement, maybe look at your on-track product
I've been a NASCAR fan for 9 years. I am honestly tired of NASCAR's shit. If the race is 500 miles, then the first driver to complete 500 miles should be declared the winner. End of story.
I’d frankly rather see a race finish under green, even it it takes a few more laps than the “advertised” distance.
Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
Daytons 900? Ha, those V8 wouldn't last.......or would they?
it doesn't generally breed restarts. Maybe in the trucks. Which I think had 7 attempts once. But You generally only get 2 restart attempts at the G-W-C at cup level. 99% OF The time. Its just the1 attempt. I don't remember seeing many, if any 3rd attempts at a finish and definitely never seen a 4th attempt at cup level. They generally work pretty well and the only reason I was narked off with Daytona this year is Kyle Busch couldn't finally win it. Gutted for him at Daytona, but glad of the bounce back at autoclub with the 8 taking his First rcr win.
WE do need a way to get rid of stage racing somehow. But the stage racing and stage points does add a unique element into the racing... But on the other hand. F1 isn't far away from throwing phantom safety cars and the sprint races in f1 is basically stage 1 of a nascar race. F1 unlaps every car. Nascar has the lucky dog rule. So there are similarities with the sports. I'm just waiting for liberty to find a way to make races longer to incorporate stage racing. G-W-C's and the restart zone. The reason f1 doesn't close the pit lane at safety car periods is there isnt 26 pit boxes (THE maximum number of cars) and don't want double stacking. And just to be extra safe. A mandetory Competition safety car after 10 laps into the race to check tyre deg.
In the US there are motorsport fans and there are Nascar fans. Motorsport fans used to like Nascar too but now we don't.
I’ve been a life long NASCAR fan, and I despise overtime. I think it’s what almost got Ryan Newman killed.
It's still the 500 because they've at least completed 500 miles. Who cares about name technicalities it detracts from the actual sport aspect of it
I would rather race for a winner than not have a finish. I understand the advertised distance. But I much rather see a GWC finish then see a bullshit yellow ruin a great race.
I would rather see the race back to the line back when the white flag comes out if the wreck is a single car or not blocking the track IMO
I like seeing a green flag finish but honestly I feel that the GWC rule has become more of a stupid gimmick than a way to give fans a good show. More often than not it results in unnecessary crashes that only just cause more repair bills to the teams
Present day NASCAR is nothing but one artificial gimmick after another. I find it loathsome.
As an American nascar fan I would like race distance to be race distance but I see no real difference in in GWC rules and red flagging a race the 2020 Indy 500 is a good example of how I would like things to end people where wanting a red flag but it would have taken 30min to an hour to get that race restarted so it ended under caution if they red flagged it then you basically have a GWC with no added fuel strategy and personal I love the anxiety of fuel mileage racing
There's a big difference to red flagging a race before completion and running overtime laps as the race is suppose to be a fixed distance. On a red flag, all the cars are shut off with the fuel and tires they had during the race. There's no running laps where people will run into the pits for more fuel because extra laps past the race distance were not factored in (nor should they be).
Honestly, I feel like getting hung up on the name of the race is pointless
About time someone said it. Hell there are plenty of races distances that don't equal the distance exactly due to the track not being exactly the stated distance.
They definitely need to get rid of that rule. Kyle was semi shafted by it. It would of been a great story too, gets dumped by JGR goes to RCR, gets wrecked for no reason in his duel and goes from the back to the front
The part that really bugs me with modern NASCAR is the green and white chequered flag breaking up the race. If it’s a 500 mile race then race for 500 miles. Don’t break it up into sections to make it more interesting. It doesn’t. If you want endurance racing then do that. If you want heat races then do that.
Excuse my pedantic number crunching, but Bathurst is 6.213 kms X 161 laps = 1000.293 kms.
This is the one thing that NASCAR kinda does right though. Finishing under caution isn't it. This is not the way to do it. Period.
Imagine if 2009 ALMS at Laguna Seca finished under caution, which, by the way, is a video I wanna see from you. Content ideas, for free; this is how you know I'm Canadian.
If they're adding laps then they might as well just stop driving round in cautions
this explains why european racing is so boring. americans dont watch the daytona 500 to see the cars go 500 miles they watch it to see the drivers fight to win the biggest race in stock car racing. it doesnt matter how long the race is. only watching to see the cars go 500 miles is like watching paint dry. plus even if one guy is stomping the field you cant just give him the win if there are problems late, he has to earn it to the end.
Surely though, it's still 500 miles of racing, even if it's 530 miles of driving?
duhhh... they keep on running into each other.. !!
I Like it.. I don't care if it's the 530. I like it to end under green, as you said... except when it doesn't.
Overtime is a waste of time.
NASCAR achieved unbelievable popularity and heights absent any of these nonsensical overtime, green white, red yellow, down is up rules. Rigged finishes, absurd, non-stop changes to the points system and races that literally never end until an "exciting' finish occurs make it unwatchable. Idiots wrecking racing for 28th can keep you awake all night. RIP NASCAR, will never again be what it was.
500 miles should be 500 miles not adding more to change the outcome of the race. I grew up watching NASCAR but not anymore since these racing gimmicks were added.
Just make it 2 laps from the start; the last remaining is the winner.
My god. Who would’ve thought that US racing required math? I gave up halfway through, my brain hurt.
Has there ever been a race where someone had to concede due to lack of tyres or fuel? I know about Ford at Le Mans, but because of the race going on and on. And on
They've never run out of fuel in the pit lane, but there's been several cars that either ran out of fuel during the stupid overtime rules or had to dive into pit lane for a splash and go.
Well at least F1 has a consistent, never wavering safety car end of race procedure. Oh wait, nevermind.
Green-White-Checkered ("GWC" from now on) is only the *third* dumbest "innovation" by 21st century NASCAR, behind stage racing and the playoffs. The downsides are numerous, and the only upside is that it placates a few entitled fans.
The biggest downside is that it creates more opportunity for crashes, and it often delivers. More banged-up cars costs the owners more money, which disproportionately affects smaller, cash-strapped teams. How many more cars were smashed in that extra 30 miles at Daytona this years? How many additional hundred of thousands of dollars worth of damage was done?
The other problem is that it moves the goalposts for the winners. In other racing series, the driver ahead at the end of the scheduled distance is the winner. In NASCAR, the driver who has done everything necessary to win could get cheated out of that win by circumstances beyond their control. Imagine you've had the most dominant car all day, leading by 10 seconds when some back marker blows his engine with five laps to go. Suddenly, the 200-lap race is 206 laps, and you get dumped into the wall on the restart. The win you had in the bag has been taken away from you in the name of entertainment.
"I don't care!" the entitled fans will whine. "Finishing under the caution is borrrrrrring! My entertainment is more important than fairness."
Finishing under the caution is no more unsatisfying than a rain-shortened race, no more boring than a gas-mileage race or when the winner is 38 seconds ahead at the finish. Some races are more exciting than others. That's racing. To demand that NASCAR compromise the basic fairness of the sport to prevent you from being the least bit bored is the height of entitlement. Pandering to fans like this is one reason NASCAR has shed so much of its fanbase since the turn of the century.
"But other sports have overtime!"
What NASCAR calls "overtime" isn't really overtime. In stick-and-ball sports, overtime exists to break ties, not to artificially juice up the "entertainment" value of the sport. Imagine it's the Super Bowl or the World Cup final, and your team is ahead at the end of regulation time, but the NFL or FIFA decides that ending wasn't exciting enough, so they're adding ten minutes of overtime. If it was your team ahead, you'd scream bloody murder and rightfully so. If you can see why that would be completely unfair, then you should be able to understand why NASCAR's overtime rules are so stupid.
It is stupid and honestly if they have to do multiple attempts at a finish it just ticks me off, I consider it more anticlimactic than a race ending under yellow, 9 times out of 10 the leader is the one who would have won and the restart and extra laps often screw the driver who should have won over, it's a product of appealing to braindead ADHD riddled manchildren who have to have every moment of the race be exciting.
Green White Checker is the best at all levels of oval racing imo
Green white checker You're welcome I fixed your spelling
You haven't fixed my spelling, because I've spelt it correctly.
@@AidanMillward 😎🤣😂🇺🇸⚾🍏🥧
@@Rainman... English (traditional) 🇬🇧
English (simplified) 🇺🇸
@@AidanMillward spell it anyway you like. I’m just happy your even giving NASCAR some attention from across the pond. Thanks from your dysfunctional American cousins. 🇬🇧🇺🇸
@@AidanMillward English (1984) 🇨🇦
NASCAR Fans: What's a chequer
nice video
NASCAR eh? Tough crowd
I’m one of those Americans that thinks NASCAR has turned itself into a joke because too many people cry foul when something doesn’t go their way. “You git what you git and you don’t have a fit” 500 miles or bust!
I feel like this was more of the exception rather than the norm
Nascar jerry rigging the end of races is worse than pro wrestling. No thanks.
I personally like the NASCAR style overtime, although the no pit opportunity may not be the best idea but if it works it works. Yet again I’m American
He got that wrong. As soon as a yellow comes out the pits are closed regardless of what lap it is. Once everyone is regrouped NASCAR will open the pits for lead lap cars. The next lap cars not on the lead lap can pit. The pits then remain open until the next yellow.
@@thejman3489 Thank you for the explanation
it's the Daytona 500 RACE...
500 is the number of laps you RUN AT RACING SPEED, the rest do not count as laps...
That's my reading at least.
NASCAR overtime should be abolished..
De ja vu