Im trying so hard concentrating on what scott is saying, but with his cats walking across the screen and looking up at camera keeps getting my attention instead lol
Don’t worry you didn’t miss much but he is just saying killers are to OP the whole video. He said Deathslinger isn’t too op then talks about being uncounterable.
I agree with all of this. I never feel like saying it anywhere cause everyone just pulls the "entitled survivor card" but it's not even like they are OP killers, there is just such lack of counterplay and skill when playing against them. Thanks for making this :)
There are just as many entitled killers out there I swear. Even if you take out the second chance perks arguments which are completely valid and fair. You have so many stupid killers who don't treat the game as a 1 v4 don't pressure gens and complain that they are getting Gen Rushed when no one brought prove thyself or good toolboxes. There's so many different things they complain about like dead hard which honestly isn't a problem at all. If they're anywhere except right next to a pallet you just bait the dead hard they panic and you down them.
@@user-un8jx8yo7z there is not that many. I dont really see that. I played this game for like 3 years and a killer never sent hate mail like survivors.
@@user-un8jx8yo7z Only difference is killers get fucked over 24/7 like the red headed step child, while survivors when they get NERFED its such light taps, if they even get nerfed, good example, Mori's got nerfed, keys still haven't changed.
Not boring: having to dodge hatchets, chainsaws, Demo's shred or even Nurse's blinks skilfully Boring: dropping pallets early due to slows (Clown/Freddy), praying every time Spirit phases, Legion as a whole
Paulina They change survivors instead of the killers/maps. Idk if it’s rightful, they should buff the low tier killers and nerf the high tier ones. All killers should be changed accordingly to like A-B Tier, instead of making survivors weaker. A good survivor is a good survivor and that should be it. A good killer is a good killer and that should be it. Make a mistake? Get punished. Ranking system needs a change, not really the role they play.
@@Sekrit honestly what I meant for the most part is that removing infinites and nerfing toolboxes was needed. For now I want some Qol buffs and changes for solo survivors.
As a survivor main, I feel so entitled whenever I say certain killers are boring and I hate it because I don't like being grouped with those types of survivors
I find it hilarious how a freddy can run 4 slowdown perks with 2 slowdown addons but as soon as i say its incredibly boring to verse reddit killers instantly think its because freddy is a strong killer. No bitch i just don’t enjoy 30 minute long games
I love how you’re able to empathise with both sides in this game. One of the main sources of toxicity in this game is not having any empathy for the other side. If people are killer mains, they don’t care about the other side, most survivor mains don’t care about killers experiences either, but you strike the perfect balance, which is why BHVR should be listening to you, but of course, they don’t. Either way, keep up the great content
No he's not. He doesn't empathize with Killers at all. Not a word was said about the reason people play 'unfun' Killers - because survivors' playstyles are unfun.
@@savevsdeath literally the first recommended video on my right to this video is a 15 minute video I made about how busted maps are in favor of survivors.
We do exist, even if we're rare. I was always on the forums going after both sides equally, until I was unjustly banned because one of my brothers NEVER listens to me and I got heated. You cannot understand DbD unless you play both sides. DbD is two separate games interacting with each other. And yes, Scott, that was my thread.
I just want the game where survivors play somewhat smart. Where there isnt a ton of second chance perks. And killers can't get free kills by slapping on NOED end even though they suck. And no more huge indirect ruin buffs. The game should be less about what you do before the game actually begins that decides the outcomes. Bad map balance, add on balance is and perk balance is not good because people just use the most broken shit almost every game. Thank God they finally addressed moris and keys are coming soon. There's too many things like that where you can basically slap on and win for free. On both sides.
i feel like we come back to this topic of wanting something nerfed vs wanting something to be made healthier, and sometimes the conflating of the two. people will interpret complaints about spirit or freddy as wanting them "nerfed" when in fact these killers aren't overpowered at all because, as you note in the video, they're perfectly beatable if people stay spread out because that's the most efficient way to play the game the problem is not strong killers. the problem is killers who are strong for the wrong reasons, who have unfair chase mechanics to make up for their terrible map mobility (this is why i tend to be against 110 killers because they almost always end up in this boat) you note pyramid head is deathslinger done better, but i'd argue he's no better (or even worse) than deathslinger because he does the same power faking/free m1 stuff deathslinger does, except against deathslinger a safe pallet is still typically safe once you're injured. a pyramid head can force you into die or die scenarios much more easily because even pallets aren't safe against him; throw a pallet and he hits you with his power, don't throw the pallet and he cancels his power and gets a free hit - same goes for vaulting pallets and windows. he's faster than deathslinger and can hit you through any obstacle without needing to m1 you, so i actually find him much less bearable in chase than deathslinger is because at least i can LoS a deathslinger and take advantage of his slower movement in some scenarios, and while slinger is stronger out in the open, i can at least sometimes do something about him when i'm at a tile either way though i agree with your video and appreciate your bit about hillbilly. i identify a lot with the "i just got outplayed by someone who made the right call in a chase" vs the "i guessed wrong and now i die" stuff
Yeah i fucking agree. Personally i feel like triangle man, freddy and hag are “braindead” killers. Freddy and hag take almost 0 skill. Triangle man takes a bit more skill but once ur in a pallet ur pretty much dead. In my opinion
@@mohammedibnalhusseinberg4907 You got me fucked up if you think hag takes 0 skill. A hag that doesn't trap correctly/doesn't know how to gets completely obliterated because they spend the first 2 minutes of the game setting up. Hag requires a lot of map knowledge and game awareness to play correctly.
@@mohammedibnalhusseinberg4907 I disagree hag isn't easy for everyone actually now that I think of it alot of people don't know how to play as her she requires strategy which is somewhat hard with some people anyways that was my opinion
I think the best way to make PH more fair is to make minor adjustments to his power, especially when he comes out of it. If he were to do an animation when he releases his m2 and had to actually pull the knife out of the ground, he’d probably be a lot better to go against, especially at pallets. I think giving more notice to his actions would make him a lot better to go against, and make him take a bit more skill. I totally agree though, whenever I notice I’m going against a PH I can’t help but groan. He’s just unfun to go against in general at the moment.
I feel this applies to both sides. Most of my favorite killers aren't viable and the ones that are s tier are just boring as hell. And I can only wonder what survivor mains feel...
@@alicivelek9429 I find characters like ghostface demo, and if he wasn't so broken freddy fun. I feel alot of characters need a slight rework. Especially with the waves of pointless add ons. Except for a select few older ones.
@@venomizedtv8426 I like playing against Demo, but I find playing against Ghostface is usually incredibly frustrating. He just blends in extremely well, and I just have a hard time spotting him. I wouldn't call Freddy broken, but a lot of people who play him just tunnel, which isn't fun.
The survivors who find them boring lose a lot against them and instead of getting better they kill themselves and give up instead of trying and they wonder why they never get better against a certain killer the only boring killer to me is hag
The only killers I find truly boring are Legion and Freddy. I GET bored with huntress, Billy, etc. But that's just because I see so many of them. Something that could be alleviated by better balancing to allow more killers at different ranks. Everyone complains about Spirit but I have never truly understood this, but then again, I like viewing the game as a horror title rather that a pseudo competitive Nascar simulator
People's issue with spirit lies within the fact that her mind game is unavoidable and is almost always just a guess. Pray to God you end up in the better place, and that's on a perfect situation where you're healthy and don't have grass and stuff to move or make noise. There's not much input from the survivor other than hoping you guessed right.
@@prohobbyist5872 I was fucking terrified of myers and ghostface for a while after they were released :D It felt good to be scared in a "horror game" again
Honestly the problem is that the only things survivor do in this game is loop and repair gens. If looping was weaker but they had more ways to combat killers that are more or less strong depending on the killer, the game would be way better and more balanced. Otherwise, the only metric you have to determine if a killer is good or not is if they're good in loops or have good map control, and killers that don't tick those boxes are just never played because they get stomped all the time.
Dont forget demogorgon dlc and upwards the maps they have added have all been terrible balance wise and generally unfun to play on for one side if not both
Hate to be reductionist but it's because of survivor complaints. No other reason why they'd nerf the widely accepted "most balanced/fun killer in the game"
Eh, I'm probably in the minority, but I never really liked playing against Hillbilly. I just didn't have fun, and I just didn't like how he could oneshot you right as the chase began. He definitely shouldn't be nerfed, I'm not sure what the dev's logic is behind that one.
Tristan Blanchard that’s usually how it goes. Best way to tell if a nerf/buff was unjustified is if only one side was asking for it, excluding quality of life changes and minor stuff.
@@MrFusion "as the chase began" is implying you literally stand out in the open when he's chasing you, which implies you don't know very well how to loop him, cuz that's literally not what you're supposed to do, which proves the theory of people not liking billy cuz they don't know how to loop him, which is their fault, not billy's
Yup. The big issue is killers designed to EXCELL in 1v1. The reason spirit is so fucking good is because she has an insanely good 1v1 WITH a map mobility power. That combo is disgustingly good. Deathslinger has great 1v1, but suffers in 1v5 because his power is very much designed around the 1v1 and has nothing to move around the map very quickly. The best part about the gameplay is the chase, and even if a killer isn’t “top tier,” the annoying design of their 1v1 is what gets people angry, understandably, and that’s what makes the killer annoying.
So true I see a lot of survivor talk about the 1v1 aspect of the game while kinda ignoring the fact that 3 other people are completing gens. I've had some awesome chases as and against survivors and the chases that have last about a minute when 2-3 gens pop. As a killer when you're having a fun chase and you finally catch that survivor and 2-3 of the 5 gens are gone it doesn't feel very good regardless of the 1v1 you just had. As a survivor, if you ran a killer around for 60secs and 2-3 gens pop you feel accomplished yet depending on the killer player the game could switch from just a friendly match to sweaty real fast. It doesn't feel good when you are punished for playing the game no matter which side you are on.
I feel like the argument of "survivors don't like playing vs killers that don't have skillful outplay" becomes less valid when every survivor can just press e to outplay, or can take a bad unhook because bt covers your mistake, or can just jump in a locker and force you to eat ds, etc etc. While the killers outlined definitely have issues, the killer meta is always evolving and changing with nerfs, buffs, and reworks, but the survivor meta has been the same stale ten perks for the last two years and I wish something would be done about it.
@@oxydolar80 I've seen so many DH users. Are they good? Usually not, but they exist. At high level play where players can time it properly it's basically a "get out of hit free" card.
DS is just such an annoying yet not that good of a perk I really want to see how bhvr can incentivize people to avoid tunneling by adding base kit punishment for going after unhooked ppl indtead of the reacuer
Honestly this is why many people think Survivor needs to be worked upon. You need more to do as a survivor than just run around loops and hold m1 on stuff. Having to do alternate things for a chase instead of managing pallets and windows would be a great thing to do. And honestly for one of your suggestion videos you should try and do one dedicated for alternate things a Survivor can do. From goals to things to avoid the killer in a chase
Honestly the best takeaway from this comment section. I think people are so hellbent on arguing "killer main vs survivor main", they forget easy conversations about overall game health and interactivity. Having an alternative way for survivors to win, or evade killers, would be incredibly interesting for both sides. Maybe even an alternative win condition for killers too? Either way, I absolutely agree with you :D
Over all, I think this game is definitely about both sides having fun. As a brand-new-to-the-game low-tier-killer main, though, I don't want to feel bad or worry about someone thinking my choice of killer is boring to go against. Getting dailies where I have to play some of the 'boring' killers and then getting flamed in post-game chat, or just generally feeling shameful about it is gross. Valid or not, I don't think the complaints of survivors should get to the point of admonishing playing a significant portion of the killer cast. I don't want to care about whether or not Doctor (my main) forces survivors to play in a certain singular way. Isn't that the point of a lot of killers, to change the playing field in their own unique way? I don't think any players, survivors obviously included, should be shamed and berated for playing who and how they want to play. The match will always end, and we all forget about it.
Speaking straight facts but some killers I feel are stronger than others it just depends cause sometimes you got a build to fight them and other times you dont it can be a 50 50
Well said. You have to watch where you walk against Trapper and Hag, watch for shimmers and listen for bells against Wraith, be able to hide well and/or chase differently against Nurse, and so on. Every killer offers a different experience to survivors. Hell, even some of the problematic killers, like PH and Freddy, contribute their own feeling to a game as survivor - torment, cages, and so on against PH, sleeping and clocks and surprise gen teleports against Freddy. Even though both of them have powers that admittedly simplify loops and reduce survivor input, it still contributes a different approach (or at least ideally it should).
@@CodyRockLee13 I agree, I hate how I have to stay away from Legion/Spirit/Deathslinger/Freddy because I get hate mail for wanting to play it. Hell the whole DBD subreddit just shits on Legion 24/7 and downvote all the Legion mains comments. This is the most bizarre/toxic community I have ever been apart of where people want you to play by some made up code of conduct. Killers are suppose to change the way you play similar to survivor's perks change the playstyle of the killer. It just feels like survivors just want to dumb down the game, have one playstyle, one build; and win every game with minimal effort.
You can play whatever killer you want, but if a majority of people calls a killer boring or unfun to play against, it's for a reason. We're not telling you not to pick it, we're telling behavior not to design killers like this. The post-game chat you can just ignore. People are going to flame you no matter what so I don't count post-game chat as a valid point against survivor valid complaints.
Dude, ofc you can do whatever you want, ofc you can play the killer you like. But by complaining that you can't do whatever you want bc ppl shit on your favourite killer, you are basically saying "I want to be free with my choices and not get frustrated, but please don't let other people talk about what makes them frustrated". A bad game for a killer: you don't get anyone, it ends fast. A bad game for survivor: you get killed so fast you don't even get to play. Not even a short game, just don't get to play at all. That's why you usually see more frustrated survivors. I tried killer and yes I sucked ass as them, but at least every time I made a mistake I got to learn and correct it a bit later straight in the game. For a survivor: you make a mistake - you're dead. I'm not saying it's bad and yes, I do need to "git good". I'm just explaining why you do see a lot of frustration from survivor side. And then imagine, you became good, learnt how not to make mistakes and not to die first 5 min of the game (and as I said learning comes rough for survivors), but then you realize that nothing changes - a person can just pick a certain killer and the game will depend not on your both skill, but on how much the killer will fuck up (in other words only in killer skill). All you've done to feel decent in this game feels worthless. And not, I still don't support toxicity. Being toxic because dude picked certain killer is messed up. I am only toxic if killer facecamps and hardcore tunnels (like really hardcore), because he is toxic first.
I get where the complaints about Deathslinger being unfun to face come from, but I kind of doubt it's as bad as most people are letting on. I've had matches with super short chases, and matches where the chases dragged on back to back, and I somehow doubt that's just my aim fluctuating between matches. If anything, I wouldn't call him as bad as Spirit, since getting speared at least doesn't always spell out an imminent hit, unlike misreading a spirit. While not always possible, there's still the potential to break the chain on obstacles, or have your teammates bodyblock as Deathslinger reels in. Regardless, I wouldn't be suprised if his ADS time gets nerfed sometime soon-
I think the argument is not that against Deathslinger your skill is irrelevant. The argument is that Deathslinger has to make the mistake so not get hit while agsint billy the survivor has to make the mistake to get hit. Billy can bait the mistake, but in the end the survivor needs to fuck up while against Deathslinger the survivor can bait the Deathslinger into a mistake, but if he makes no mistake then the survivor gets hit. A good survivor will generally loop the deathslinger longer than a bad survivor, the same way a good hillbilly will end chases faster than a bad hillbilly. Against a GOD survivor even a GOD hillbilly will need to chase until the survivor has used up all resources while against a GOD deathslinger even a GOD survivor will go down in 2 shots.
@@RandomPerson-yq1qk Isn't the opposite true for the majority of killers though? For a long time people have said that killers mainly get downs by capitalising on survivor mistakes. Things like being greedy at a loop, or running to a dead zone for example. Why is then bad that Deathslinger puts that burden of watching for mistakes on the survivor for a change? You still have agency as a survivor, by finding good LoS spots, or loops he can't shoot over. It's then up to the survivor to make the most of him missing because of those choices. Personally I think it's good that he mixes things up that way, to stop everything from being homogenous.
I think slinger is a bit weird. The situation that Scott mentioned about the ads zone is 100% anti fun. If the slinger is doing that you just lose no matter what (the chase anyway, likely not the match). General slinger play is better, but it's very rng dependent. Los blocks are a necessity and are randomized based on map. Otherwise survivor jukes only can do so much. In the same stride you can't make jukes work 100% otherwise he becomes useless.
@@jaysaber9054 Yes, the opposite has been true for most killers, but there are a couple things to point out. When the survivor gets hit twice his chase is over. As long as the killer doesnt lose the survivor or chooses to end it the chase never ends (unless the survivor actually manages to hide which is very rare). Also survivors gradually lose resources and on most maps (not some BS fractured cowshed or mount loop) the killer can force the survivor into bad situations at some point. Also killer is generally much easier than survivors in chase. I would argue that in most matches the average chase takes less than a minute. I dont know why that is, but I assume one reason is that you chase much more as killer than survivor so you have more practice with equal playing time on both sides. Then just look at Huntress, she is very well balanced in the middle. On medium-range hatchets both players can always win if they predict perfectly. She has enough options on most loops that survivors generally cant account for everything so the huntress always has a chance, but if the survivor plays perfectly he can also predict all of huntresses moves and not get hit. Some loops are basically free hits and some loops are basically unwinnable for huntress.
@@joeyjointjebaiter1275 he is pretty meh because he is too hard to control. His kit is on the right direction though. But the fact that he cannot hit on the first dash is retarded.
@@xornedge8204 if blight could hit on his first rush it would be waaay too easy, takes all the skill away from the killer and makes it very uninteresting for survivors. Just get hit instantly as soon as the killer sees u
@@Liumane how about the dash having more control then? In all honesty it pretty much doesn't matter what the killer has. As long as there are 2 or more DHs on the survivor team and they are smart about it, they can overextend chases.
So around the 10 minute mark, when you're talking about how killers like Clown and Doctor are 'boring' 'cause they force you to play in a specific way to counter them.... well that's why there's so many killers. So what if there's only a couple ways to counterplay a specific killer? Barring a ridiculous string of (bad?)luck you won't face the exact same killer over and over and over, so your variety of play comes from facing others. You use anti-Clown tactics when facing a Clown, and then switch up your strategy when you face a new one. Come in with perks/items not suited for the killer you got? Oh well, but that's the ever-present risk. On another note, I DESPISE the idea of 'balance' being the homogenization of (nearly) all killers being reduced to running the same tired loops for an M1 in the exact same way. Let the powers be worthwhile.
He's not complaining that they force you to play a specific way, he's complaining that the counterplay amounts to doing the same thing every time. Plague is another example of boring, because the counter is to not interact with her power and stay one hit the entire game.
Its Just a Very survivor sided argument. So all killers should be looped 3 times on one same pallet/window? I like going against a challenge, when I see ghostface or bubba I know its a free win(If my teammates do gens). Because I Just loop them in the most easy ways. I get happy when I see huntress, deathslinger, Freddy,etc. Because they ARE a real challenge. Survivors complain about strong killers, but when you play a match and no one gets hooked, its boring as hell. I feel like I wasted 10 minutes holding a button on a gen
He's not asking for homogenization, he's asking for variety in play. The issue with clown and doc is that you have one option that neither of you have much input in. Either you drop the pallette now and live, or you don't and get hit. That's only interactive because pallettes don't automatically drop themselves against those killers, but you don't really have a choice in the matter so it might as well be. Playing as clown and doc in those situations isn't fun because you can't do anything about it, and playing as the survivor isn't fun because you can't do anything about it. Risk reward and interactivity between parties is about as far as homogenization I can think of.
I feel like a core issue is how countering killer works. It's either loops, blending, being as efficient as possible nothing. Loops are uninteresting imo
Right his whole first point about them not using their skill completely negates anything the player can do. You just shift your skills to evasion and stealth instead of looping and running. Saying its boring because I can't do my one thing is so childish.
I know I'm probably gonna get backlash for saying this, but I think the term "entitlement" is thrown around way too often nowadays. Don't get me wrong, there definitely are a whole bunch of biased & entitled players in this community, but sometimes it feels like survivors literally aren't allowed to complain about anything (even if its valid criticism regarding the game design) without automatically being dismissed as entitled survivor mains. And while those definitely do exist, there are also lots of survivors that just want the game to be fun and enjoyable for _both_ sides. They're just not as vocal as the salty ones, so you tend not to notice them as often. Edit: Grammar
its the same with “toxic”. you could be playing with friends and fucking around and learning how to flashlight save because its such a blast getting saves and suddenly youre labelled as a “toxic sweaty swf”.
I’d love to play survivor but I suck at 360s and just don’t have friends who play dbd and I’m a rank 7 killer and I used leatherface or spirit or wraith and I’d say wraith or spirit but wraith more but he sucks when in high ranks I don’t face nothing but red ranks and I’d love to play against killers but die easy cause don’t have people to really work with
vintageethot I was trying a fun build an the killer ignored me the whole game an it was boring an I flickered at him once an he ended up texting me how I was toxic an entitled
Killer: Skill and Fun = No fun for survivors Survivor: Skill and Fun = No fun for killers It's really at the point only one side can win when comes to gameplay. Their can't really be a balance for survivor and killer it's impossible.
That’s so true. I play both sides and while I don’t have the mentality of making the other role as miserable as possible I feel like it just happens. As survivor I just do gens and loop pretty averagely honestly and I still end up escaping almost all the time. As killer I play Leatherface and I get downs so fast it’s like the survivors are just unhooking most of the game, and that’s without camping and tunneling which means every hook is another person they have to run across the map to get usually. I personally would love the game to be more fun for everyone, but I just don’t see it being possible with the current state of the game.
@@vi5e0gam3r5 That's the issue i see with the balance. The balance of the game is based off of survivors not being able to talk to each other, but they just use discord and the coordination can get them a ridiculous advantage. IMO they should just add a team chat for survivors and start balancing the game around a killer vs a somewhat coordinated team.
The thing that worries me most about the road they are taking is that they openly said they like Billy's power and how balanced it is, then proceed to nerf the fuck out of it. I think that just shows how out of touch the devs are with why long term players of this game are still playing and that's worrying. Billy was fun to play as and fun to play against. Strong but counterable and it came down to the better player which is the way it should be. So not only are most of the new killers boring to play against for the reasons mentioned, they take it a step further and fuck with one of the most fun killers to go against. As a survivor main, I want good killers to go against but I want to win or lose through skill, not because guesswork and luck. It makes playing feel pointless when you lose, not because you got outplayed but because there weren't any plays to make in the first place.
I think what's truly boring is being able to use the same set of skills to beat every killer, the variety that spirit, clown, pyramid head, and deathslinger bring make survivor fun to me.
The only time I find a killer to be "boring" is when they camp and tunnel. Even if I'm going against a really good killer they are never "boring". Instead I'm excited to go against them and face a challenge. If the killer is a good spirit/nurse and I literally can't do anything against them to win, I still don't consider the killer "boring". I say this because me an average survivor messing around should never come close to outplaying that killer. The person playing that killer is playing the game at such a high level that someone only as equally efficient can beat. This is where I think it becomes more of a matchmaking issue where a good killer is paired up against 4 solo q's just chillin. Wouldn't it be nice to have an option to select when searching for a game if you just wanted to chill or be super sweaty when you play. All killers to me can be boiled down to a play style that becomes monotonous once you have went against them a ton of times. The game is based around 50/50 decisions where some killers have more options to handle or initialize them. So I see why people think clown and deathslinger are "boring", since everyone plays the one way they can if they want to do good. It's similar to how killers don't want to go against full meta perk survivors, its unfun, predictable, and used a lot. Essentially killers need a variety of ways to be played that allow them to have "fun" and be able to "win".
While I definitely appreciate the dislike of killers that can quickly end chases, I think it's important to remember that chases aren't the only way to evade a killer. And not only do some players like those ways more, but they're often more thematically appropriate. Running around an obstacle in circles or jerking yourself around unpredictably at close range are almost something I'd call exploits, in the sense that I don't think that they're intended behaviour (or weren't when the game was designed). In short: feeling comfortable being chased by the killer shouldn't be a feeling players experience, and if you're in a game with a killer who kicks ass in chases, you have to get better at avoiding chases. That doesn't mean that these complaints about killers making chases unfun isn't totally fair, but I just hate it when people talk about DbD as if chases are the only thing survivors can do to defend themselves and ignore a significant other part of the game. I feel like that fixation on chases also leads into most of the toxicity in the game, with survivors knowing full well that the three second chance perks and flashlight they have equipped will let them loop the killer for 'x' amount of time, do they just sit at 'checkpoints' teabagging and clicking their flashlight. Anyway, that's my two cents. Maybe they should find some more overt ways of letting survivors hide easier so that that style of play is more overtly encouraged? I just hope Behaviour find a way to make those playstyle-invalidating killers a little less painful.
Yeah but billy and nurse are not considered “boring” killers even though they end chases very fast. They’re not boring because the more skilled player usually wins
Having to adjust to a new strategy for killers is fine, honestly its JUST spirit that is bs. Its 50/50 whether or not I survive. As someone who runs spinechill I have plenty of time to prepare against any killer. I dont see legion and sigh, I try to get bled first so I can do my gen in peace. Keeping objects between me and deathboy is tense and engaging. And yeah its unreactable, but you can 100% dodge predictions. Not everytime he aims. Yeah survivors want to test their skill, but only on m1 killers with no power. You don't see them complaining about trapper or hag just cucking their loops. Even though it was impossible to avoid without preparing. Survivor is more than playing patty cake with the killer, its stealth and teamwork.
I kinda disagree with Deathslinger. I personally find playing against him interesting. The shot is often not reactable, but that makes juking sucessfully all the more rewarding. And I disagree that no skill goes into it. While you don't get a visual indication, with experience you get a feeling for when a Deathslinger is going to shoot. If he misses, he either becomes a slower m1 killer with no ability, or has to spend some time rewinding which allows me to get some distance, so I feel like I'm rewarded for evading. Against a good Deathslinger, I find it to be an interesting contest to anticipate each others moves. Further, your choices matter in terms of routing. Going into areas with lots of cover opposed to making a mistake by running into the open field. This is second nature to good survivors from playing against Huntress, but still a choice based on experience that matters for your chances of escape. Another thing you can sometimes do is, when injuried, position yourself so that you have a shot at breaking the chain before he can hit you. Fun is always a subjective thing and I'm not saying anyone who dislikes playing against Deathslinger is wrong. But I find it fun and disagree that my choices as survivor don't matter. I also don't have as much of a problem with Spirit as many others, since not every Spirit is a god. Against a very good Spirit, you often get the my choices don't matter feeling. But I still find outplaying a less experienced Spirit rewarding from time to time.
The thing is, you can't "juke" or make a deathslinger "miss". It's the deathslinger themselves that miss. If you go to a window, and then fake vault it and the deathslinger misses, that's just because the deathslinger sucks. If he had just waited .2 seconds to see if you vaulted it or not, you would have been hit. If you vaulted it, he shot you over and now he gets a hit, and if you faked it, he just lowers his gun instantly and M1's you. All the deathslinger needs to do is just wait and see what you do. With huntress, she has to commit to a hatchet throw and if she decides that it's not a good idea to throw one she has to go thru a whole ass animation of lowering her hatchet to M1. Deathslinger doesn't have to do that. He can just tap it. "Juking successfully" against a deathslinger is "hoping the deathslinger sucks and that he misses his shot". Maybe if it's long range then yeah you can juke, but if you are close range in a chase, looping him, there is no way to juke him other than hope he misses. And if you think otherwise, you just aren't experienced enough in the game.
tbh all you need to be with spirit is decent if you want to 4k constantly, her skill cap is not that high and all you need with her is stridor and a headset and anyone with little experience can 4k with her lol
this is the feeling i get as killer when i get a team that purely camps every single pallet. if your a killer that doesnt snowball a ton or has an easy way to deal with pallets, you lose. sure, all the survivors's resources get used up, but who needs resources when the game is already over.
Yes o my God I hate survivors that camp pallets it takes all skill away from the whole looping side of the game and turns it into, survivor drops pallet, you kick pallet till there are no pallets left on the map but not only is it extremely boring for killers survivors who camp pallets are also fucking over their team by creating these big deadzones where there is just nothing
JR Panday I don’t think that is as much of an issue, it’s when a whole team does it when it gets troublesome. Because as long as the 3 not being chased are doing gens, by the time the whole map is a deadzone it’s too late, the gens are already done. Doesn’t apply as much to nurse or billy, but killers like pig (my main) really rely on survivors playing pallets to get hits.
Agree 120% with Scott. His thoughts are almost the same as mine. I hope for a better more interactive "battle" between the killer and surv. Just like billy matches. Pretty much everything Scott said is dead-on when it comes to making great match experiences
completely disagree with his opinion. When survivors say that the killer is boring, they're basically saying that they can't 5 gen chase a killer, nor 1vs1 the killer for entire game. I'd argue that it is boring for killer to have long chases on imbalanced looping structures where the killer lacks any agency in winning the loops. Its like pre determined loss vs SWF with optimal gen pressure when you can't even down people in 1 player in 1vs4 game.
10:30 I agree with what he's saying about wraith. But if a survivor brings spinechill, the attentive part basically gets thrown out the window and then wraith becomes super easy to go against.
My opinion on how fun killers are: Very fun:Billy, Oni, demo, huntress Fun:Michel, pyramid head, ghostface, nurse Normal: wraith, doc, plague, bubba, legion, pig, Less fun: trapper, clown, Freddy, deathslinger I wish I could dc with no punishment: hag, spirit
I have been thinking about this, and to counter The Trapper, the one that makes a perimeter with traps to end chases quickly, you have to make your own safe perimeter. You know, pop the traps that he puts down in the area that you are, and force him to loop you there. Maybe. I don't know seems like an interesting concept. Countering trapper with his own method: the perimeter
Some of the trouble is looping is pretty boring to run as a killer. Also running any loops as killer at higher ranks basically guarantees your gonna lose because gens get done so fast you can’t afford to engage the loops; it’s in the hands of the survivors. The issue still comes back to gens. They’re unfun to work on because they’re boring, but they’re too easy to do quickly to play in a “fun” style, i.e. looping with survivors, dropping chases to try to spread pressure, etc. Gens are the root of all the games problems could be eased and killers wouldn’t need to be so built around ignoring loops if they could afford to spend more time in chases. What is actually really like to see is unique add-ons for each survivor to make them play differently, and maybe giving them a special power. Something smaller, but then you could add in more variety to survivor gameplay. That’s also part of the issue, survivor core gameplay is boring because it’s always the same, but killers have variety in gameplay.
Survivors should probably have some sort of unique passive power tbf, maybe claudette heals 10% faster by default and meg runs 4% faster when outside of a chase or something like that
@@DrRockyify I play way more killer, but most loops are really boring. Playing killer is fun because you get a cool unique power to use to hunt the survivors. Chasing is fun. Loops are not fun. I want a chase that goes all throughout the map, not one that is around the same L wall or debris tiles with a pallet. The longer the chase stays in a small area the more boring it is.
All this makes me remember the time when there were only 3 killers in the game. Adding nurse was a huge thing back then. Now i'm not even hyped for new killers anymore. They haven't added a decent killer for both sides in so long.
i think onis pretty decent on both sides (shame theres like barely any oni mains on console, but i understand why, its similar with billy) but still, half a year of killers that just havent really reached nurse levels of hype kinda sucks.
@@haowig Back when nurse had 3 blinks and everyone was still bad at the game it was actually fun to play against a nurse. It's crazy how much they had to nerf after players became better at the game. It's just too bad that the devs themselves don't get better at understanding it themselves. It almost feels unprofessional at this point. The current state of this game with all these boring new additions and server issues is so bad it's a miracle that it's still alive.
Finding something boring is subjective so I cant say youre wrong about finding some killers boring personally...HOWEVER I find your logic very flawed, when it comes to Deathslinger at least. Maybe im biased because I love playing him but one of the reasons I like him to begin with is he forces players out of the autopilot loop tech that the so called "exciting" killers are forced to endure and makes both parties think of loops differently. You say it throws all the player experience out the window? Good. If this game is going to continue they have to make killers that keep survivors on their toes and give EVERYONE new ways of mindgaming and interacting with eachother.
But there’s a lack of counterplay/mindgames you can do in a large number of situations. You didn’t go down because you made a mistake or the killer did something particularly well. You often go down solely because the guy picked deathslinger and there was nothing you could do. I understand your logic with the exciting killers, but there has to be some balance to it. Deathslinger doesn’t have that.
Having to learn new counterplays against new killers isn’t the issue though - I find killers with unique counterplays (like Billy) actually really fun to play against. The real issue is the fact that there *is* no (or very little) counterplay in the first place for Deathslinger. That’s why he’s so unfun to play against. You’re often forced into situations where no matter whether you have 50 hours or 5,000 hours of experience in the game, you’re still almost certainly going to get hit. You end up having to rely on the killer messing up themselves rather than outplaying the killer yourself.
But the issue here is, survivors doing loops is boring, there's no fun in loops its a purely transactional experience, even the mind games are standardized down to a fault. The most fun killers are the ones who can secure kills without looping cause of this. Making killers less boring for survivors make them more boring for killers cause loops as an idea are boring. This game is fundamentally flawed and fixing the backbone issues at this point is impossible. Balancing for skill across an asymmetrical game has never worked, if the game is responsive so its decided by survivor skill then its fundamentally frustrating for the killers, if the game is responsive to killer skills its fundamentally frustrating for the survivors. This is a bad game, its always been a bad game, its a fun game for some people maybe, but its a bad game at its core. You cant fix this.
That's why well designed killers have powers that interact with looping without completely ignoring it. Billy can chainsaw sprint and curve around corners to catch out survivors. Huntress is slow, but can punish predictable movement/pallet drops/window vaults. Demo's shred works similarly. Myers interacts with line of sight instead of avoiding hits which gives a new dimension to avoiding him. If you think looping is standardized just watch someone like Otzdarva play killer. Some stuff like killer's shack doesn't have much to explore anymore, but there is a ton of room to be creative in most loops that a lot of killers never explore. Dbd can be an amazing game, it's just that so often it's ruined by all the crappy design that still exists in the game.
@@jibrailhattar190 Imagine thinking that your subjective opinion on something is an objective fact. I also am bored to tears by looping being such a massive part of every match, especially when survivors have setups like god bus or cow shed.
I think the devs should add a delay to deathslinger’s aim for maybe 1-2 seconds. They should keep the animation, just slow it, and have deathslinger whistle so only people in his terror radius (the survivor being chased) can hear it so it acts as a warning before the mind games start. Then getting out of aim should be much faster than aiming at first but there still needs to be a delay
@@squidwardonachair1089 I would rather play with bots, cause at least they wouldn't bitch and whine or act like entitled shits when they 4 man SWF bully someone 10 ranks below them
@@ThndrMge Some people just want to dick around and play with their friends. 4 man SWF and SWF in general doesn't equal a sweaty team ganging up on the killer. That's not to mention you don't really have a concrete way to know if they're SWF unless their friends' list is public. I'm a solo survivor main and mettle of man is in my every build. 9/10 matches I get accused of being SWF because I play altruistic and take hits for my team. I play killer here and there and I've went against SWF. Contrary to common believe they're not actually evil. They're just trying to have fun, like me and everyone else who plays dbd.
I try to stray away from Boring Killers when I play the game. It just doesn't feel as satisfying to down a survivor with them. It's somewhat fun just killing a survivor quickly with a spirit because they just can't tell where I am or if I'm still on them but it just gets old after a while. Spirit I feel could see changes that make her more fun in the future, but Deathslinger I don't think they're ever gonna do right. A shame, really. I like being able to enjoy the game as any killer. I hope that'll be possible in the future. Can't put any input in on Pyramid Head, don't have him :/. I do enjoy playing as Nurse and Doctor though. Probably because I can't play either of them too well, not sure.
Doctor is really strong, but 99% of doctors I go against don't use him correctly and he becomes a m1 killer with tracking abilities. I hardly get stopped from windows or pallets.
@@justmonika2345 Oh of course, there's so many ways that Deathslinger could be reworked to make him more fun to play as and against. I was just saying that the Devs are never going to get it right, if they even try getting it right in the first place.
As a hag main a lot of people call me boring. Whilst they may have a point in rare occasions, they're often the ones who make bad plays such as allowing themselves to be pulled off a hook save after triggering my trap and choosing to ignore it.
I understand and agree with a lot of what you said in this video about how some things could be “boring” for survivors, but I have to disagree on some things. A lot of what you said was “boring” were the mind games that both sides have to play. Spirit faking someone out or using her ability in general is a mind game, you have to predict and adjust your strategy as time goes on. Same with Deathslinger, if he keeps faking a shot you can learn that and prepare for it. If these mind games were changed, and there was only one thing for every killer to do, then it would be EXTREMELY easy for survivors to beat. In any asymmetric game, the 1 should outclass the 4. The survivors get 3 chances for a reason (even more when they use perks like DS, Borrowed time, unbreakable, blinds, etc.), they are not supposed to win every chase. So if there was going to be changes to these killers where the mind games were taken out, they would have to replace that with strength, otherwise you just have a bad killer. I think the main problem with this game is that the devs have been setting it up so any survivor can 1v1 a killer if the killer doesn’t decide to just leave them (which also isn’t fun to do), and to patch this up they make killers that may not necessarily be entirely fair or fun for the survivors. In the end, killers want to chase, and survivors don’t want to get downed, but the problem is that neither things are done well. A killer can’t chase, or they lose too much time and the game’s over. A survivor will still go down eventually, but they will inevitably get out if they have a competent team and did well in the chase. The problem for survivors in most cases is that they don’t have a competent team, but that is because most survivors never have to learn that part of the game because while their off doing nothing the one person who knows how to play is off running the killer around all game. The only real fix I have for this is for the devs to make up their mind whether or not they want this game to be ranked, because if they just came out and got rid of the ranks it might take away some of the pressure for both sides to be so focused on winning and have time to just have fun chasing instead of worrying if the rest get out. But idk how they could honestly fix everything wrong with this game at this point. Anyway that was my Ted talk, thank you for listening.
People hate doctor because they can’t use all of their broken things . They can’t use their blendette outfits . They can’t use infinites , they are obligated to do something else and change their style .
I feel like if Wraith was less addon dependent, than I'd totally pick him up. His base kit doesn't even have to be that good, but playing him as is just feels really bad without addons imo.
People think deathslinger is boring? Escaping him is near completely different from other killers via his literal fucking gun. I thought people’s idea of a “fun” killer is a killer that is really unique and requires a change in strategy to counter.
I think diverse linearity is a healthy thing. Some killers should reward survivors who can loop well, and others should punish survivors who use it as a crutch. If you have multiple killers that deny you certain abilities and reward others, that is a good thing.
Indeed, running in circles while staring back very fun much skill. I play killers that break this dynamic of the game intentionally. Running in circles to get a pallet drop is the least engaging game play.
well what are survivors meant to do, crouch around the corner of the map and walk in a straight line all game? if you dont like the mechanic of looping, dont play dbd. simple as that.
@VLight no skin off my back considering it's not my logic. It's the previous posters logic inverted back on them. My logic was stated in the initial post I made.
I think you're completely right with Deathslinger and Spirit, but I think Behaviour did a great job designing pyramid head. It's not too hard to dodge his ranged attacks and in order to always dodge it you have to do some guessing but it's a healthy amount
What do you do if he cancels the ranged attack? Scott's point is even if you juke all the PH has to do is cancel and M1, he's not locked into his power.
Yeah but at a pallet u can’t do anything, if u drop it you get it hit , if u don’t he stops his power and m1s you and he can do it super quickly it’s super mindless
badrepo he’s still be slowed down. He moves slower even when canceling the ranged attack. You also shouldn’t use the range attack up close to a survivor. You use it for loops. You can’t m1 around a loop.
I'd love to hear a discussion between you Umbra and Tru3 on these type of subjects because I hear it in the dialog sometimes while all of you stream but, it really would be nice to see some high level players that play both sides of the spectrum talk about changes to improve killer and survivor interactions. Also, thank you, I learned how to play DBD watching your tiles video which helped improve my understanding of the game immensely.
While I do see where you're coming from, I also have to kind of disagree. There is really no problem with having Killers that force drastically different playstyles on Survivors, much like how the Doctor does not allow Stealth play and other Killers like Nurse or Spirit force it. We could argue that there are too many Anti-Loop killers, and I would agree with that, but a big problem with Survivors who complain about Killers being boring is that they have one way of playing the game and never want to change that. A Killer player should be able to pick and choose certain killers who help them out with what they are lacking; I am horrible at finding Survivors unless they're at gens, and so I play a lot of Doctor. A Killer who can't loop should be able to pick a Killer who can ignore loops. Also, look at how BHVR has managed to treat the Killers that they try to "bring in line". Legion has been gutted twice over with only the first time being justified, Billy is getting demolished, No one plays Nurse because she's incredibly frustrating to play now, and you could go on.
I’m a ghostface main. And I ignore the survivors that just want a chase. They never do gens so I go for their teammates first, Then I go for the “I wanna show my skill off” players. Survivors just cry and moan about everything.
@@VFG204 then they cry about tunneling wah wah wah, 80% of survivors are just cry babies they always find something to sulk over, and they wonder why noone wants to play killers, then cry about q times
Personally I find DeathSlinger incredibly fun to go against. You can bait to evade shots to buy time and distance, that feeling when you narrowly avoid the harpoon and it whizzes right past you is awesome and really gets you going and invested in the chase, plus the killer player has to have decent aim to land their shots, and even then they need the sense to land them at times where you don’t just snap the hook right off behind a thin tree or rock. It’s kinda like playing against huntress, you need to respect the killers potential or you’re gonna have a bad time.
That the fun i think Scott forgot, one person can find a killer boring but another could find it fun. Since having a killer that focus you to change things up, could be fun. Since it's not the same thing each and every time. If it were, that sounds like it would get rather boring quickly or rather just repeating the same thing over and over again without end.
i hate going against a spirit as much as the next guy, but i also hate going into the endgame lobby and always seeing one of 5 perks, usually multiple times
Tbh everytime I go agains't a freddy I feel like they are roleplaying or smth because it is so boring to go against it that I unironically get sleepy irl If freddy has pallets, you just have to wish this pallet is not fake, because you can't have vision in all of the map, specially as a solo survivor, so unless you have empathy or Aftercare, you don't know which pallets were used and which haven't. If he has dream snares, it's even worse literally no downside on putting on in the current loop, because you don't get slowed down when setting your trap nor stopped in place like literally Hag and Trapper Yes, I know hag has this thing that even moves your camera, and that trapper literally grants a free hit, meanwhile freddy is just a slow down but he does not even have to recharge them like Clown does or anything, he just press M2 and lures the survivor to go against and if you just use discordance - Pop - Tremors (that ghostface perk), and corrupt, It's literally a free pip fuck, you don't even need corrupt if you know what you are doing smh
Now imagine someone who doesn’t play these annoying characters but can’t win because of ds,unbreakable,dead hard, and iron will. The killer should have an advantage but it shouldn’t be boring to go against.
The only thing I want to point out is that you can wake up and thats how you counter him. This applies more to the pallets then the snares but even then I had a good team go against me and would wake up and avoid the first hit for as long as possible. It was a very hard game and only one gen was left but they 3 gened themselves so it was a gg, had they not done that they could have won the match
@@OwlpoAnimations yea, you have to run across the map to wake up, or find a teamate of miss a skillchecks which doesnt matter either way since u will go back to the dreamstate less than a minute. I think they need to remove the timer to the dreamstate. So the only way to go to the dreamstate is getting hit by freddy. And make it the only wake up is to find a teammate or find the clocks.
Scott I feel like you need to know the difference between a prediction and a guess. Deathslinger is a prediction on what he is doing as the situation you are in is very clear to you and you understand most possible outcomes if you have experience against slinger. This is similar to a TL wall mindgame and a huntress pallet 50/50. Spirit is a guess as the situation on where she is moving is unknown and you have no clue of what she is planning to do. Also IMO skill isn't deleted against slinger, what loops you run to, your positioning and your initial distance all help increase the chase. Skill also helps predict based on the skill level of the slinger player what shots he might or might not take. Spirit on the other hand though has too many options and is pretty absurd.
@@ScottJund 100%. He has a wonky 24m terror radius, or 16m with M&A. His chain is 18m. With M&A he's already in chain range by the time you hear his TR. Unless if survivors are in a SWF or they're using one of a few specific perks (OoO, Spine Chill, Premonition) they have basically no warning that he's coming until he's right on top of them. Even in a SWF you won't know where he is a lot of the time, depending on the map. If you could pick where you engage Deathslinger such that you're always near a safe pallet, sure, that would remove a lot of his threat. That's not how it goes, though. I'd be super down with making him 115% movement speed and increasing his maximum chain length, but also increasing his TR, increasing his ADS time substantially, increasing his reload time a bit, and removing the ability to deep wound healthy survivors who break free from the chain. I think that would increase the skill ceiling for Deathslinger by letting him pull off some really long range shots, but also give survivors much more counterplay in a chase. Increasing the punishment for Deathslinger missing a shot and improving his general chase potential with the 115% movement speed would force him to be more selective about when to use his power, increasing his TR would mean less free hits. Dodging his shots would now be possible with the longer ADS time too, which would be huge. Huntress is a great example of how to do a ranged killer right. She has extremely high snowball potential, but her hatchets can be dodged, she can be looped on some tiles, she has to be smart about when to use hatchets because having none almost always means dropping chase, and she's vulnerable to stealth because of her lullaby. She's one of the killers I enjoy playing against most despite how good she is.
I made a similar comment on Reddit although mine was about killers who can spam their power and basically give you no option but to drop the pallet like Freddy, Clown, Doctor and such and how it can lead to boring gameplay and got lit up by some really offended people who were calling me an entitled survivor and that I shouldn’t complain about everything a killer does and such. I wasn’t even complaining, just stating my opinion since we were on a topic like it and I was downvoted like crazy. I play more killer than survivor and I’ve been rank 1 on both for the longest so it shows how toxic/blind both sides can be to actual opinions.
I just hope that one day, the devs actually listen to some of the community's complaints and... do something about them for once. Seems like they just do whatever the hell they want and just wing it. Also I'm a barber IRL, I could give you a haircut for free if you come to Brazil hahahaha
Do you mean like when they nerfed the Nurse? Or like nerfing Billy's chainsaw then fixing it before they release it? Or like buffing Bubba... or like nerfing Legion... then rebuffing Legion. OR did you mean like when they reworked Freddy... or perhaps you meant when they removed god loops and made large maps a bit smaller? ALL of these things were asked for by the community.
Honestly the Devs just seem to have no idea what they’re doing most of the time. Nerfing the most balanced and fun killer to play and play against, and adding new killers that break the game’s core mechanics to the extent of them being dreadfully boring to play against. All they know is they want money quickly, and the quicker they can push out rushed killer designs and expensive cosmetics, the better from their point of view.
I don’t think these complaints are valid. (With the exception of spirit, she should be nerfed) Survivors who actually think playing against a death slinger, or clown, or doctor is unfun should really stop and consider the other side. How fun do you think it is to go against a team with 16 meta perks, 4 items, and coms? How fun is it to run endlessly around the map, constantly breaking pallets and seeming like you get no closer to hitting them? The same people that complain about unfun killers are the same ones that believe that dead hard and decisive strike are balanced. A good survivor with dead hard is basically untouchable if they are anywhere close to even a filler pallet or loop. And they’re the same ones that will taunt the killer and jump in a locker forcing them to either eat the DS or leave them alone for 60 seconds. From the killers perspective, flashlights can be considered boring to play against too. You skillfully down somebody, and If they aren’t in a position where you’re directly facing a wall, you have 2 options. Chase the guy with the flashlight away and have the downed person get healed, or pick them up and be blinded from 3 different angles. There is quite literally, no in between with good survivors. It’s just like the nurse situation, or the deathslinger situation. If they don’t get the blind, it’s because they messed up the timing, not because of anything skillful you can do to avoid it. In my opinion, saying certain killers aren’t fun or boring is a negative mindset, as both sides have their equal share of bullshit that they can pull off, with no counterplay.
Boring is subjective. There are people who find playing against Spirit fun. While others find playing against Spirit boring. For if we base it on boring, than haddonfield and ormond would be changed long ago, for oh woot pallet after pallet on ormond that allows a survivor to keep a chase going for ages, without taking into account the power of the main building as well. You should not base your reasoning on x being boring. It should be base on balance and counters. What can i do against x? For if we base on boring. We have to take into account how fun the killers are and what is boring for a killer. For boring goes both ways, not just one way.
*For those that don't want to read my whole personal experience/spiel the tl;dr is basically there are boring and irrational aspects for both sides. There's a huge disconnect because players might play one side more than the other or not at all. So it is appreciated and should be worth noting that when content creators and other players who have hundreds and thousands of hours equally on both sides point things out you don't just shit on them and actually do consider their arguments at least a little bit.* - I think a lot of the disconnect in the argument happens because people don't play both sides. As a survivor I do enjoy at least some level of interaction with a killer every game. It's extremely boring to be a gen-jockey every game, for the entire game. Whether that interaction comes in a full blown chase or just me trying to avoid being noticed as I skirt around rocks or trees because my gen is in a dead zone. Both of those are at least moments where I feel that risk-reward and the exchange of skills or ability. This doesn't hold true for a few particular killers though. - When I realize I'm playing against spirit, deathslinger, Freddy and (depending on map) clown; my entire game plan changes to "push gens and go next" simply because interaction with these killers isn't fun or rewarding. However, the same is also true when I play as these killers. I don't often feel like I'm making smart decisions with these characters more so than survivors being limited by my kit. Unlike some killers where I feel I have full rights to exercise my skill on either end; such as trapper and billy. As a survivor I can, for the most part, find ways to play around the two. Of course you have situations where a trap blends almost perfectly or billy just spots you in a dead zone leading to a free back-rev but those are isolated incidents. In chase, you almost always have options and input. On the flip side, I love games where I set up traps and even if I lose a gen or two I immediately get a player snapped up and force someone into a second. I also love the feeling of getting a nasty curve around a corner as billy and getting those hits. - In the end I just think that people that immediately shit on one side's opinions tend to lack experience in that position. Both sides have frustrations just as Scott pointed out. Some killers have little to no counterplay and force one playstyle, which in a game where your only individuality is your perks, ruins your whole experience sometimes. If you never play as survivor, you never realize how awful these situations feel. Adversely, killers also get headaches from a few core survivor benefits. Having multiple loops in close proximity feels great to run but to get hit with a long loop into double t-wall into jungle gym with safe pallet *cough ormond and rancid abattoir* feels freaking awful. I think there are a few other things that really drag down enjoyment of the game but those are other more system issues: poor hit reg (hopefully next update fixes this), ridiculous variation in tile spawns and the terrible ranking system topping the list but those are for a different argument.
I fail to see the difference between guessing against spirit/deathsliger and guessing against billy/demo/whoever or just the guessing game that is always present in looping. If all killer options can be beaten with appropriate reactive survivor options then killers obviously have no way to ever win, and that's why there always has to be a guessing game involved. No matter what killer you're against as survivor, there is going to be a situation where you're in a tile being chased and you'll have to make a choice between something like vaulting a window or faking the vault, and if the killer correctly guesses which choice you made you get hit. I don't see much of a difference between this and something like dropping a pallet during spirit's invis and either vaulting over it or staying on the same side, and that's why I can't really understand the attitude of being so heavily against guessing in gameplay. And this isn't even to really debunk someone saying spirit or other killers like her are boring. If someone finds the game exciting when they can apply their knowledge of how to optimally run loops etc. then sure they'll propably enjoy playing less when against killers that don't play around the specific guessing game of looping. But at the highest level of play where all survivors and killers know optimal ways to play loops don't chases all boil down to the same thing? After some amount of time you are going to get downed as a survivor, guess wrong and you'll go down faster, guess right and you'll buy more time for the team.
The difference is that against normal killers you can see what they are doing and have time to react to their actions so if you get hit or down, you either fucked up or got outplayed, but against spirit and deathslinger you just guess and pray because, you can't see the spirit so all the loops at every moment becomes a bet (and let's not bring stridor here cause if you're injured there is no guess you are just dead) , and have no time to react to deathslinger
@@wfac1997 But if you always have time to react to the killer's actions then how is the killer ever going to hit a survivor (other than with bloodlust I guess)? What does getting outplayed actually mean at that point?
That's when the guessing gets fun, on those loops you can see the killer, because you know the number of safe loops you have and then the guess is to drop the pallet or greed trying to bait the drop, but against spirit you don't have that inicial chase (unless she commits to it) it's just guessing, and then again if you are injured no chase for you. And with deathslinger again, no chase, you just play boring and drop it or get it. I'll put an example of killers shorting loops that's not unfun, wraith uncloaking at a loop, you can see it's movement and you know he's faster than you after that, you want to save the must time for your teammates so obviously dropping the pallet is the safe option but that would be boring, there's no chase. Since wraith is faster if he mind game you, you got outplayed, if not you got a chase. The thing is that you have a way to try to stole time with the knowledge you have and not with just some coin toss. Sorry if it is too long
@@wfac1997 I feel like killers almost always swing at the pallet instead of trying to bait a drop so extra loops rarely happen, but that another element of guessing, sure. I don't quite understand the situation you mean with the wraith example, sorry. But yeah, if you think that style of guessing game between killer and survivor is more fun than some other kind (ie. spirit), that's completely understandable.
How do you break line of sight when the hordes of M&A-using Deathslingers are already basically on top of you before you even hear the TR? The first hit is borderline free unless you're really lucky about where you are when he shows up. If you happen to be repairing one of those new Autohaven gens in the middle of a dead zone when he shows up that's basically going to be a 10 second chase. Free first hit, speared before you find an obstacle he can't shoot over, downed. You can't really gain distance within chain length if he's any good. If you run in a straight line, you're an easy target and he'll shoot you in the back. If you try to dodge, you'll lose distance and he'll walk up and hit you. If you're on a map like Lery's where it's nothing but walls and corners, sure, maybe you can break LOS. If not, good luck with that.
I think the main issue with DBD, is that there is only one mode. Could you imagine other survival modes that focus on some different escape mechanism that isn't gens and pallet looping? Devs could look into other survival games that would benefit certain killers skills more than what the current mode is. Also, I think a practice area would be great too (especially with the bigger ones that take time to learn building areas). So much energy is put into killer and survivor nerfs/buffs, when I think the game play itself could use some new mode that would really refresh things to learn new skills and possibly test old ones.
I've heard about you a lot, but honestly until recently, hadn't watched many videos. I've now seen a few of your videos examining different issues, and I love hearing your perspective on these things. Too many people I watch seem to have a perspective that favors one side. And I for sure can't give the best views on things, because I haven't played nearly as much killer as I have survivor. But what I generally find it, I'd say, what you said near the end here: I don't want games where I'm just going down in two seconds and it feels like nothing I did mattered. But I also don't want games where the killer clearly had no chance and everybody gets out with ease. And for sure, with both of these, the skill level of the killer and survivors have to be considered. I definitely feel I need to improve when I go down clearly because I'm playing poorly. But it sucks when it feels like you generally play well, and things go to shit because of a few random chance or luck-based things.
Honestly when survivors say a killer is "boring" just means that they can't loop for multiple gens or whatever and killers that aren't "boring" are one's that you can (which results in 5 gens gone in the blink of an eye most of the time). Also, I want to point out that in order to "win" as killer, with more fun but garbage killers especially at rank 1, you have to try hard af and that gets exhausting but I'm competitive lol
@Justin Guaragno It's more the fact that they can disable the loop by using the corrupted effect which purposely tries to discourage the survivor but ALSO the fact that if he doesn't use his AoE to hit you because you dont throw down the pallet, he can then just M1 you.
Pyramid Head takes quite a bit of getting use to and really isn't as good as people make him out to be. He's quite easy to counter. Sure, sometimes you'll come across some really good Pyramid Head and he gets everyone fairly quickly.... but in reality... that's just a good killer player and would have done the same thing to you with just about any killer they use. Using PH doesn't make someone a better player any more than using Nurse or Billy does.
These kind of videos are amazing! Keep doing them! Btw for a future video you can talk about the stretched resolution topic 'cause it's a very interesting and hot topic in the community
Like me when I played clown the other day and people called me boring and literally stated it was boring to face him because they couldn't loop for days....I'm a survivor main but holy shit survs are trash tbh.If any single thing doesn't go their way it's instant insults and complaints about how you played the killer.
Although i agree with what scott says. I disagree with playing against deathslinger. For being 110% killer his power isn't even that great. Even if he lands his shot its not guaranteed the down.If the survivor just puts down the pallet the deathslinger has to destroy it and give up on chasing the survivor or he just ends up wasting time chasing, which aint great for a 110% kiler. I definitely agree with scotts other points tho.
Yea I agree too deathslinger isn’t much of a problem compare to spirit since he is slow for a reason balance reasons but the problem imo is his heart beat with M&A he can basically sneak up on survivor which I dislike
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but do y'all consider why people play these so called 'boring killer's'? Or are killer's just bots that are responsible for survivor's fun? I hate to be that guy, but I feel l that people calling killer's boring is just a way of saying "I hate that I can't loop, or have to use different tactics against certain killer" I play survivor, but I don't hold killer's accountable for my fun and I love going against killer's that actually make me use my brain
I feel the same as a survivor main. I didn’t finish the whole video but he keeps talking about not being able to use skill and stuff about just guessing and being lucky against death slinger and spirit but the thing is those guesses are educated guesses based off of experience. I juke death slingers and spirits a lot because a majority of them play the same so you can tell what they are doing. Not only that but even when you 360 another killer or even dead harding that is technically a guess too because you’re guessing that they are going to swing instead of continuing to run
Survivors are too used to get away with doing the fun stuff like running looping and 360. When a killer comes that denies that it is "not fun". Well, now they know how fun it is to be new at killer. Play what you like to play if they don't like it too bad, there is no pleasing survivors anyway so play like you want.
I feel like spine chill is boring for a killer because a lot of time the survivor knows I’m there as wraith or ghost face before I know they’re there and I feel like I shouldn’t have to moonwalk just to counter this perk. Another perk is decisive I like the idea for it being an anti tunneling perk but lockers make it too strong because you either take the DS or be locker spammed for the duration of the perk. I feel like when you grab a survivor from a locker you should drop them or something
See thats why this new killer is gonna be really good! His gameplay is more centered around before/after loops and his power is dodgeable enough to not always be bullshit.
I just disagree, there is skill to juke deathslinger, sure it comes with map awareness and looping knowledge but you can still mind game / juke a deathslinger
There are too many moments against Deathslinger or Pyramid Head where there simply isn’t any counterplay, that’s the issue. Consider this - if a Deathslinger holds up his weapon as if to shoot you, you’re forced to move in random directions in order to avoid being shot. This then forces you to deadzone yourself, which means he can just immediately put down his weapon and M1 you, giving him a free hit. But if you don’t move in random directions and continue running, he can just shoot you from a distance, which will also give him a free hit. There’s no escape - you have to rely on the killer messing up. That’s a matter of relying on chance, not on your own “skill”. That’s why he’s so unfun. There’s such a lack of counterplay and such a lack of having the ability to utilise your existing skills as survivor added on to the fact that the killer himself takes so little skill to get free hits.
You know what isn't fun for killers? When the gens are so quick you can't do anything to win even with extremely short chases, but hey let's nerf all killers
Imagine a PVP game where both teams have fun Addition: What if when The Spirit activates haunting: - She phases into the overworld periodically - She has a visual indication of the direction she is moving in - Survivors peridoically phase into the Spirit's vision but show no indication of which direction they're moving in, and their images are only snapshots that do not have an animation - Sounds of survivors are only present when survivors phase into The Spirit's vision, but persist for x seconds afterward (maybe alterable with addons) - Yamoaka's Haunting does not give a lunge bonus - Yamaoka's Haunting lasts slightly longer by default - Scratch marks have a 1 second appearance delay for the Spirit
@@KishinAkenm No I think it's a nice balance. I'm just spitballing ideas here, and Spirit is definitely S tier lol. I'm a killer main myself and even I can admit she's a great deal stronger than other killers. Too much of a strength differential. I think for her power there has to be some sort of information exchange so the survivor can be prepared to evade her, and the Spirit can get enough information to mind game faster than other killers. Maybe the changes I suggested are too heavy but I think something similar could work. Maybe the changes need to be subtler. Either way, I think she needs a very slight nerf. A nerf so small that maybe BHVR will be incapable of implementing it lol
I'm really loving these types of videos, Scott, keep em going. I enjoy the genuine conversations they spark up and I think it's something we desperately need to keep this game from withering. It's not about just one side, it's about the game as a whole. Everyone that is still playing this game just wants to see the game improve.
DBD idea for Scott- Let's make Leatherface themed gum, sell it, and call it Bubbagum.
Because Leatherface is a licensed killer, you would have to buy the license from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre itself.
If Leatherface starts putting shrimp in his chili, does that make it Bubbagump Shrimp?
@@kimberlyterasaki4843 y e s
@@guestykins1776 i wish i had photoshop rn xD
S T O P
Puns are illegal
I'll be forever cheesed that the piggy has a normal TR and deathslinger has a small ass TR
She used to be slower and have a smaller TR
@@ineligible2267 Pretty sure her speed never changed, but her terror radius used to be 28 meters rather than 32 meters.
Octopusman394 well i think thats because it makes no sense to have a bunch of killers with 4.6 and 32 tr and 4.4 and 24 tr and then one 4.6 and 28
dude they should swap TR's
The only remedy I have is M&A not being able to decrease TR further than 24m.
It looks like the mic is spirits arm lol
Talk to the hand!~
oh my God fuck you haha
It does lol
How?
I G at the starts it’s lined up perfectly
Im trying so hard concentrating on what scott is saying, but with his cats walking across the screen and looking up at camera keeps getting my attention instead lol
close your eyes then b0ss
Lol
Don’t worry you didn’t miss much but he is just saying killers are to OP the whole video. He said Deathslinger isn’t too op then talks about being uncounterable.
I agree with all of this. I never feel like saying it anywhere cause everyone just pulls the "entitled survivor card" but it's not even like they are OP killers, there is just such lack of counterplay and skill when playing against them. Thanks for making this :)
There are just as many entitled killers out there I swear. Even if you take out the second chance perks arguments which are completely valid and fair. You have so many stupid killers who don't treat the game as a 1 v4 don't pressure gens and complain that they are getting Gen Rushed when no one brought prove thyself or good toolboxes. There's so many different things they complain about like dead hard which honestly isn't a problem at all. If they're anywhere except right next to a pallet you just bait the dead hard they panic and you down them.
Yooooo probzz
@@user-un8jx8yo7z there is not that many. I dont really see that. I played this game for like 3 years and a killer never sent hate mail like survivors.
@@user-un8jx8yo7z Only difference is killers get fucked over 24/7 like the red headed step child, while survivors when they get NERFED its such light taps, if they even get nerfed, good example, Mori's got nerfed, keys still haven't changed.
@@jackalsmalls4995 do I smell killer entitlement? 😂😭🐽
Not boring: having to dodge hatchets, chainsaws, Demo's shred or even Nurse's blinks skilfully
Boring: dropping pallets early due to slows (Clown/Freddy), praying every time Spirit phases, Legion as a whole
Legion isn't even bad anymore
*sad legion noises*
Wait, I just noticed Clown... What the actual hell?
@@allither6310 You can't loop clown. Once you're hit with a bottle you have to drop the pallet or you get hit. He's not good but he's fucking boring.
Dan The Very Mediocre Man that’s not boring quit using the word boring use unfun or repetitive
If this game was more balanced you would see more variety of killers.
Yup. When was the last time there were changes to survivors and their perks?
@@RottenHeretic um what survivors are getting nerfed every update, rightfully so but what you're saying is bs
Paulina They change survivors instead of the killers/maps. Idk if it’s rightful, they should buff the low tier killers and nerf the high tier ones. All killers should be changed accordingly to like A-B Tier, instead of making survivors weaker. A good survivor is a good survivor and that should be it. A good killer is a good killer and that should be it. Make a mistake? Get punished. Ranking system needs a change, not really the role they play.
@@Sekrit honestly what I meant for the most part is that removing infinites and nerfing toolboxes was needed. For now I want some Qol buffs and changes for solo survivors.
@@olive8382 balanced matchmaking is a huge buff to solo survivor.
As a survivor main, I feel so entitled whenever I say certain killers are boring and I hate it because I don't like being grouped with those types of survivors
Ironic.
@@chainsawhands814 ain't it?
@@chainsawhands814 lol not really do you know what irony is ahahaha
@@harold5856 do you know what a joke is ahahahahhahahahahahhaha
I find it hilarious how a freddy can run 4 slowdown perks with 2 slowdown addons but as soon as i say its incredibly boring to verse reddit killers instantly think its because freddy is a strong killer. No bitch i just don’t enjoy 30 minute long games
I love how you’re able to empathise with both sides in this game. One of the main sources of toxicity in this game is not having any empathy for the other side. If people are killer mains, they don’t care about the other side, most survivor mains don’t care about killers experiences either, but you strike the perfect balance, which is why BHVR should be listening to you, but of course, they don’t. Either way, keep up the great content
No he's not. He doesn't empathize with Killers at all. Not a word was said about the reason people play 'unfun' Killers - because survivors' playstyles are unfun.
@@savevsdeath literally the first recommended video on my right to this video is a 15 minute video I made about how busted maps are in favor of survivors.
We do exist, even if we're rare. I was always on the forums going after both sides equally, until I was unjustly banned because one of my brothers NEVER listens to me and I got heated.
You cannot understand DbD unless you play both sides. DbD is two separate games interacting with each other. And yes, Scott, that was my thread.
@@savevsdeath And he's also a killer main, mate
I just want the game where survivors play somewhat smart. Where there isnt a ton of second chance perks. And killers can't get free kills by slapping on NOED end even though they suck. And no more huge indirect ruin buffs.
The game should be less about what you do before the game actually begins that decides the outcomes. Bad map balance, add on balance is and perk balance is not good because people just use the most broken shit almost every game.
Thank God they finally addressed moris and keys are coming soon. There's too many things like that where you can basically slap on and win for free. On both sides.
i feel like we come back to this topic of wanting something nerfed vs wanting something to be made healthier, and sometimes the conflating of the two. people will interpret complaints about spirit or freddy as wanting them "nerfed" when in fact these killers aren't overpowered at all because, as you note in the video, they're perfectly beatable if people stay spread out because that's the most efficient way to play the game
the problem is not strong killers. the problem is killers who are strong for the wrong reasons, who have unfair chase mechanics to make up for their terrible map mobility (this is why i tend to be against 110 killers because they almost always end up in this boat)
you note pyramid head is deathslinger done better, but i'd argue he's no better (or even worse) than deathslinger because he does the same power faking/free m1 stuff deathslinger does, except against deathslinger a safe pallet is still typically safe once you're injured. a pyramid head can force you into die or die scenarios much more easily because even pallets aren't safe against him; throw a pallet and he hits you with his power, don't throw the pallet and he cancels his power and gets a free hit - same goes for vaulting pallets and windows. he's faster than deathslinger and can hit you through any obstacle without needing to m1 you, so i actually find him much less bearable in chase than deathslinger is because at least i can LoS a deathslinger and take advantage of his slower movement in some scenarios, and while slinger is stronger out in the open, i can at least sometimes do something about him when i'm at a tile
either way though i agree with your video and appreciate your bit about hillbilly. i identify a lot with the "i just got outplayed by someone who made the right call in a chase" vs the "i guessed wrong and now i die" stuff
Well said
Yeah i fucking agree. Personally i feel like triangle man, freddy and hag are “braindead” killers. Freddy and hag take almost 0 skill. Triangle man takes a bit more skill but once ur in a pallet ur pretty much dead. In my opinion
@@mohammedibnalhusseinberg4907 You got me fucked up if you think hag takes 0 skill. A hag that doesn't trap correctly/doesn't know how to gets completely obliterated because they spend the first 2 minutes of the game setting up. Hag requires a lot of map knowledge and game awareness to play correctly.
@@mohammedibnalhusseinberg4907 I disagree hag isn't easy for everyone actually now that I think of it alot of people don't know how to play as her she requires strategy which is somewhat hard with some people anyways that was my opinion
I think the best way to make PH more fair is to make minor adjustments to his power, especially when he comes out of it.
If he were to do an animation when he releases his m2 and had to actually pull the knife out of the ground, he’d probably be a lot better to go against, especially at pallets. I think giving more notice to his actions would make him a lot better to go against, and make him take a bit more skill.
I totally agree though, whenever I notice I’m going against a PH I can’t help but groan. He’s just unfun to go against in general at the moment.
The Majula music from Dark souls 2 immediately caught my ear. Good choice.
Ikr
I feel this applies to both sides. Most of my favorite killers aren't viable and the ones that are s tier are just boring as hell. And I can only wonder what survivor mains feel...
lol nurse isnt boring at all i gfind her the most fun
@@alicivelek9429 I find characters like ghostface demo, and if he wasn't so broken freddy fun. I feel alot of characters need a slight rework. Especially with the waves of pointless add ons. Except for a select few older ones.
@@venomizedtv8426 I like playing against Demo, but I find playing against Ghostface is usually incredibly frustrating. He just blends in extremely well, and I just have a hard time spotting him. I wouldn't call Freddy broken, but a lot of people who play him just tunnel, which isn't fun.
The survivors who find them boring lose a lot against them and instead of getting better they kill themselves and give up instead of trying and they wonder why they never get better against a certain killer the only boring killer to me is hag
^ this dude most be a killer head
The only killers I find truly boring are Legion and Freddy.
I GET bored with huntress, Billy, etc. But that's just because I see so many of them. Something that could be alleviated by better balancing to allow more killers at different ranks.
Everyone complains about Spirit but I have never truly understood this, but then again, I like viewing the game as a horror title rather that a pseudo competitive Nascar simulator
This game has definitely become much more formulaic and game mechanics focused game instead of a fun, multiplayer horror you can play with friends.
@@eddiehenry5062 horror goes out the window once multiplayer is added
People's issue with spirit lies within the fact that her mind game is unavoidable and is almost always just a guess. Pray to God you end up in the better place, and that's on a perfect situation where you're healthy and don't have grass and stuff to move or make noise. There's not much input from the survivor other than hoping you guessed right.
@@prohobbyist5872 I was fucking terrified of myers and ghostface for a while after they were released :D It felt good to be scared in a "horror game" again
I never understood this I'm a spirit main 🤷♀️
Honestly the problem is that the only things survivor do in this game is loop and repair gens. If looping was weaker but they had more ways to combat killers that are more or less strong depending on the killer, the game would be way better and more balanced. Otherwise, the only metric you have to determine if a killer is good or not is if they're good in loops or have good map control, and killers that don't tick those boxes are just never played because they get stomped all the time.
Bruh they made looping weaker by decreasing the pallets in a game, most pallets are unsafe, and all we can really do is mind game, loop and do gens
Dont forget demogorgon dlc and upwards the maps they have added have all been terrible balance wise and generally unfun to play on for one side if not both
I was going to agrue but realized you are correct. I sorta like the cowboy map tho.
Demogorgon was when they broke matchmaking. When he was released every low rank killers started reporting matches VS red ranks 24/7
I enjoy the Grave of Glenvale as both sides, but the Sanctum of Wrath always makes me want to DC. Sanctum is boring as shit
GUNNERTLC7 cow boy map the best new map we’ve had The rest are indoor maps and indoor maps fucking suck
@@gunnertlc7728 MY problem with the cowboy map is that a huge corner of the map is just deadzone.
I think billy is the most balanced and fun killer to play/go against, I don't get why they're nerfing him....
Hate to be reductionist but it's because of survivor complaints. No other reason why they'd nerf the widely accepted "most balanced/fun killer in the game"
Eh, I'm probably in the minority, but I never really liked playing against Hillbilly. I just didn't have fun, and I just didn't like how he could oneshot you right as the chase began. He definitely shouldn't be nerfed, I'm not sure what the dev's logic is behind that one.
@@MrFusion well if ur in a dead zone yeah but if ur at any type of map tile the majority of the time it's just who outplayed the other one I feel like
Tristan Blanchard that’s usually how it goes. Best way to tell if a nerf/buff was unjustified is if only one side was asking for it, excluding quality of life changes and minor stuff.
@@MrFusion "as the chase began" is implying you literally stand out in the open when he's chasing you, which implies you don't know very well how to loop him, cuz that's literally not what you're supposed to do, which proves the theory of people not liking billy cuz they don't know how to loop him, which is their fault, not billy's
Yup. The big issue is killers designed to EXCELL in 1v1. The reason spirit is so fucking good is because she has an insanely good 1v1 WITH a map mobility power. That combo is disgustingly good. Deathslinger has great 1v1, but suffers in 1v5 because his power is very much designed around the 1v1 and has nothing to move around the map very quickly. The best part about the gameplay is the chase, and even if a killer isn’t “top tier,” the annoying design of their 1v1 is what gets people angry, understandably, and that’s what makes the killer annoying.
So true I see a lot of survivor talk about the 1v1 aspect of the game while kinda ignoring the fact that 3 other people are completing gens. I've had some awesome chases as and against survivors and the chases that have last about a minute when 2-3 gens pop. As a killer when you're having a fun chase and you finally catch that survivor and 2-3 of the 5 gens are gone it doesn't feel very good regardless of the 1v1 you just had. As a survivor, if you ran a killer around for 60secs and 2-3 gens pop you feel accomplished yet depending on the killer player the game could switch from just a friendly match to sweaty real fast. It doesn't feel good when you are punished for playing the game no matter which side you are on.
I feel like the argument of "survivors don't like playing vs killers that don't have skillful outplay" becomes less valid when every survivor can just press e to outplay, or can take a bad unhook because bt covers your mistake, or can just jump in a locker and force you to eat ds, etc etc. While the killers outlined definitely have issues, the killer meta is always evolving and changing with nerfs, buffs, and reworks, but the survivor meta has been the same stale ten perks for the last two years and I wish something would be done about it.
They’re probably never gonna change the survivor meta sadly and also survivor need there stupid DS and dead hard just to feel safe
Dead hard is so bad now nobody uses it who are you going against I’ve literally seen people kill themselves with dead hard
@@oxydolar80 I've seen so many DH users. Are they good? Usually not, but they exist. At high level play where players can time it properly it's basically a "get out of hit free" card.
Kyle Schneider dead hard is annoying when used for mistakes but not when it’s used for extentind loops
DS is just such an annoying yet not that good of a perk
I really want to see how bhvr can incentivize people to avoid tunneling by adding base kit punishment for going after unhooked ppl indtead of the reacuer
Honestly this is why many people think Survivor needs to be worked upon. You need more to do as a survivor than just run around loops and hold m1 on stuff. Having to do alternate things for a chase instead of managing pallets and windows would be a great thing to do. And honestly for one of your suggestion videos you should try and do one dedicated for alternate things a Survivor can do. From goals to things to avoid the killer in a chase
Honestly the best takeaway from this comment section. I think people are so hellbent on arguing "killer main vs survivor main", they forget easy conversations about overall game health and interactivity. Having an alternative way for survivors to win, or evade killers, would be incredibly interesting for both sides. Maybe even an alternative win condition for killers too? Either way, I absolutely agree with you :D
Over all, I think this game is definitely about both sides having fun. As a brand-new-to-the-game low-tier-killer main, though, I don't want to feel bad or worry about someone thinking my choice of killer is boring to go against. Getting dailies where I have to play some of the 'boring' killers and then getting flamed in post-game chat, or just generally feeling shameful about it is gross.
Valid or not, I don't think the complaints of survivors should get to the point of admonishing playing a significant portion of the killer cast. I don't want to care about whether or not Doctor (my main) forces survivors to play in a certain singular way. Isn't that the point of a lot of killers, to change the playing field in their own unique way? I don't think any players, survivors obviously included, should be shamed and berated for playing who and how they want to play. The match will always end, and we all forget about it.
Speaking straight facts but some killers I feel are stronger than others it just depends cause sometimes you got a build to fight them and other times you dont it can be a 50 50
Well said. You have to watch where you walk against Trapper and Hag, watch for shimmers and listen for bells against Wraith, be able to hide well and/or chase differently against Nurse, and so on. Every killer offers a different experience to survivors. Hell, even some of the problematic killers, like PH and Freddy, contribute their own feeling to a game as survivor - torment, cages, and so on against PH, sleeping and clocks and surprise gen teleports against Freddy. Even though both of them have powers that admittedly simplify loops and reduce survivor input, it still contributes a different approach (or at least ideally it should).
@@CodyRockLee13 I agree, I hate how I have to stay away from Legion/Spirit/Deathslinger/Freddy because I get hate mail for wanting to play it. Hell the whole DBD subreddit just shits on Legion 24/7 and downvote all the Legion mains comments. This is the most bizarre/toxic community I have ever been apart of where people want you to play by some made up code of conduct. Killers are suppose to change the way you play similar to survivor's perks change the playstyle of the killer. It just feels like survivors just want to dumb down the game, have one playstyle, one build; and win every game with minimal effort.
You can play whatever killer you want, but if a majority of people calls a killer boring or unfun to play against, it's for a reason. We're not telling you not to pick it, we're telling behavior not to design killers like this. The post-game chat you can just ignore. People are going to flame you no matter what so I don't count post-game chat as a valid point against survivor valid complaints.
Dude, ofc you can do whatever you want, ofc you can play the killer you like. But by complaining that you can't do whatever you want bc ppl shit on your favourite killer, you are basically saying "I want to be free with my choices and not get frustrated, but please don't let other people talk about what makes them frustrated". A bad game for a killer: you don't get anyone, it ends fast. A bad game for survivor: you get killed so fast you don't even get to play. Not even a short game, just don't get to play at all. That's why you usually see more frustrated survivors. I tried killer and yes I sucked ass as them, but at least every time I made a mistake I got to learn and correct it a bit later straight in the game. For a survivor: you make a mistake - you're dead. I'm not saying it's bad and yes, I do need to "git good". I'm just explaining why you do see a lot of frustration from survivor side. And then imagine, you became good, learnt how not to make mistakes and not to die first 5 min of the game (and as I said learning comes rough for survivors), but then you realize that nothing changes - a person can just pick a certain killer and the game will depend not on your both skill, but on how much the killer will fuck up (in other words only in killer skill). All you've done to feel decent in this game feels worthless. And not, I still don't support toxicity. Being toxic because dude picked certain killer is messed up. I am only toxic if killer facecamps and hardcore tunnels (like really hardcore), because he is toxic first.
I get where the complaints about Deathslinger being unfun to face come from, but I kind of doubt it's as bad as most people are letting on. I've had matches with super short chases, and matches where the chases dragged on back to back, and I somehow doubt that's just my aim fluctuating between matches.
If anything, I wouldn't call him as bad as Spirit, since getting speared at least doesn't always spell out an imminent hit, unlike misreading a spirit. While not always possible, there's still the potential to break the chain on obstacles, or have your teammates bodyblock as Deathslinger reels in. Regardless, I wouldn't be suprised if his ADS time gets nerfed sometime soon-
I think the argument is not that against Deathslinger your skill is irrelevant. The argument is that Deathslinger has to make the mistake so not get hit while agsint billy the survivor has to make the mistake to get hit. Billy can bait the mistake, but in the end the survivor needs to fuck up while against Deathslinger the survivor can bait the Deathslinger into a mistake, but if he makes no mistake then the survivor gets hit.
A good survivor will generally loop the deathslinger longer than a bad survivor, the same way a good hillbilly will end chases faster than a bad hillbilly. Against a GOD survivor even a GOD hillbilly will need to chase until the survivor has used up all resources while against a GOD deathslinger even a GOD survivor will go down in 2 shots.
@@RandomPerson-yq1qk Isn't the opposite true for the majority of killers though? For a long time people have said that killers mainly get downs by capitalising on survivor mistakes. Things like being greedy at a loop, or running to a dead zone for example. Why is then bad that Deathslinger puts that burden of watching for mistakes on the survivor for a change? You still have agency as a survivor, by finding good LoS spots, or loops he can't shoot over. It's then up to the survivor to make the most of him missing because of those choices. Personally I think it's good that he mixes things up that way, to stop everything from being homogenous.
I think slinger is a bit weird. The situation that Scott mentioned about the ads zone is 100% anti fun. If the slinger is doing that you just lose no matter what (the chase anyway, likely not the match). General slinger play is better, but it's very rng dependent. Los blocks are a necessity and are randomized based on map. Otherwise survivor jukes only can do so much. In the same stride you can't make jukes work 100% otherwise he becomes useless.
@@jaysaber9054 Yes, the opposite has been true for most killers, but there are a couple things to point out. When the survivor gets hit twice his chase is over. As long as the killer doesnt lose the survivor or chooses to end it the chase never ends (unless the survivor actually manages to hide which is very rare). Also survivors gradually lose resources and on most maps (not some BS fractured cowshed or mount loop) the killer can force the survivor into bad situations at some point. Also killer is generally much easier than survivors in chase. I would argue that in most matches the average chase takes less than a minute. I dont know why that is, but I assume one reason is that you chase much more as killer than survivor so you have more practice with equal playing time on both sides.
Then just look at Huntress, she is very well balanced in the middle. On medium-range hatchets both players can always win if they predict perfectly. She has enough options on most loops that survivors generally cant account for everything so the huntress always has a chance, but if the survivor plays perfectly he can also predict all of huntresses moves and not get hit. Some loops are basically free hits and some loops are basically unwinnable for huntress.
Try survivor against him,its still boring,if you want a long chase you just camp pallets
Hillbilly is great example of how killer should be, thats why they are nerfing him to the ground. Slow clapping
Blight is the current best example of a good killer. He takes skill to master, is strong but also has counters.
They probably want every killer to just be a plain chase killer where the power can only really be used in chase which is lame as hell
@@joeyjointjebaiter1275 he is pretty meh because he is too hard to control. His kit is on the right direction though. But the fact that he cannot hit on the first dash is retarded.
@@xornedge8204 if blight could hit on his first rush it would be waaay too easy, takes all the skill away from the killer and makes it very uninteresting for survivors. Just get hit instantly as soon as the killer sees u
@@Liumane how about the dash having more control then? In all honesty it pretty much doesn't matter what the killer has. As long as there are 2 or more DHs on the survivor team and they are smart about it, they can overextend chases.
I'm glad you enjoy making these discussion videos, because these are my favorite videos you make.
So around the 10 minute mark, when you're talking about how killers like Clown and Doctor are 'boring' 'cause they force you to play in a specific way to counter them.... well that's why there's so many killers.
So what if there's only a couple ways to counterplay a specific killer? Barring a ridiculous string of (bad?)luck you won't face the exact same killer over and over and over, so your variety of play comes from facing others.
You use anti-Clown tactics when facing a Clown, and then switch up your strategy when you face a new one.
Come in with perks/items not suited for the killer you got? Oh well, but that's the ever-present risk.
On another note, I DESPISE the idea of 'balance' being the homogenization of (nearly) all killers being reduced to running the same tired loops for an M1 in the exact same way. Let the powers be worthwhile.
I want survivors to think clown is boring so he can get something to make him more fun to play *as*
He's not complaining that they force you to play a specific way, he's complaining that the counterplay amounts to doing the same thing every time.
Plague is another example of boring, because the counter is to not interact with her power and stay one hit the entire game.
This is the type of comment I was looking for. Thumbs up.
Its Just a Very survivor sided argument. So all killers should be looped 3 times on one same pallet/window? I like going against a challenge, when I see ghostface or bubba I know its a free win(If my teammates do gens). Because I Just loop them in the most easy ways. I get happy when I see huntress, deathslinger, Freddy,etc. Because they ARE a real challenge. Survivors complain about strong killers, but when you play a match and no one gets hooked, its boring as hell. I feel like I wasted 10 minutes holding a button on a gen
He's not asking for homogenization, he's asking for variety in play. The issue with clown and doc is that you have one option that neither of you have much input in. Either you drop the pallette now and live, or you don't and get hit. That's only interactive because pallettes don't automatically drop themselves against those killers, but you don't really have a choice in the matter so it might as well be. Playing as clown and doc in those situations isn't fun because you can't do anything about it, and playing as the survivor isn't fun because you can't do anything about it. Risk reward and interactivity between parties is about as far as homogenization I can think of.
I feel like a core issue is how countering killer works. It's either loops, blending, being as efficient as possible nothing. Loops are uninteresting imo
Tier list based off how fun they are to play as/against pleaseeeee
Chris P. Nuggz didn’t otz kind of do something like that
Hell yeaaaah
@@cole960 no, he just explained all killers and left it to viewers whether they are fun or not.
@@yuzde43yanmis you can't decide if something is fun for somebody other than yourself. Every person has their own opinion.
The issue with that is that it's subjective, but I'd be down for an opinion based tier list honestly. It'd be interesting.
Yes deathslinger ignores your skill, but he needs his own skill to get you with a shot. Spirit on the other hand needs to press M2 and go one way.
I TOTALLY i agree its not like he can quick scope or something to make him an unskilled killer
Right his whole first point about them not using their skill completely negates anything the player can do.
You just shift your skills to evasion and stealth instead of looping and running. Saying its boring because I can't do my one thing is so childish.
@@thezerowulf507 But then the probleme comes to the fact Behaviour doesnt reward evasion/stealth
I know I'm probably gonna get backlash for saying this, but I think the term "entitlement" is thrown around way too often nowadays. Don't get me wrong, there definitely are a whole bunch of biased & entitled players in this community, but sometimes it feels like survivors literally aren't allowed to complain about anything (even if its valid criticism regarding the game design) without automatically being dismissed as entitled survivor mains. And while those definitely do exist, there are also lots of survivors that just want the game to be fun and enjoyable for _both_ sides. They're just not as vocal as the salty ones, so you tend not to notice them as often.
Edit: Grammar
its the same with “toxic”. you could be playing with friends and fucking around and learning how to flashlight save because its such a blast getting saves and suddenly youre labelled as a “toxic sweaty swf”.
Entitled and Dumpster fire are being used, a lot, nowadays.
you're absolutely right though
I’d love to play survivor but I suck at 360s and just don’t have friends who play dbd and I’m a rank 7 killer and I used leatherface or spirit or wraith and I’d say wraith or spirit but wraith more but he sucks when in high ranks I don’t face nothing but red ranks and I’d love to play against killers but die easy cause don’t have people to really work with
vintageethot I was trying a fun build an the killer ignored me the whole game an it was boring an I flickered at him once an he ended up texting me how I was toxic an entitled
Killer: Skill and Fun = No fun for survivors
Survivor: Skill and Fun = No fun for killers
It's really at the point only one side can win when comes to gameplay. Their can't really be a balance for survivor and killer it's impossible.
Agree
True but in theory the game shouldn’t be balanced the killer should have the advantage.
That’s so true. I play both sides and while I don’t have the mentality of making the other role as miserable as possible I feel like it just happens. As survivor I just do gens and loop pretty averagely honestly and I still end up escaping almost all the time. As killer I play Leatherface and I get downs so fast it’s like the survivors are just unhooking most of the game, and that’s without camping and tunneling which means every hook is another person they have to run across the map to get usually. I personally would love the game to be more fun for everyone, but I just don’t see it being possible with the current state of the game.
@@vi5e0gam3r5 in Deathgarden that's how it usually went
@@vi5e0gam3r5 That's the issue i see with the balance. The balance of the game is based off of survivors not being able to talk to each other, but they just use discord and the coordination can get them a ridiculous advantage. IMO they should just add a team chat for survivors and start balancing the game around a killer vs a somewhat coordinated team.
The thing that worries me most about the road they are taking is that they openly said they like Billy's power and how balanced it is, then proceed to nerf the fuck out of it. I think that just shows how out of touch the devs are with why long term players of this game are still playing and that's worrying. Billy was fun to play as and fun to play against. Strong but counterable and it came down to the better player which is the way it should be. So not only are most of the new killers boring to play against for the reasons mentioned, they take it a step further and fuck with one of the most fun killers to go against. As a survivor main, I want good killers to go against but I want to win or lose through skill, not because guesswork and luck. It makes playing feel pointless when you lose, not because you got outplayed but because there weren't any plays to make in the first place.
"Boring killer! You need to let us win so we can t bag you at the gate"
I think what's truly boring is being able to use the same set of skills to beat every killer, the variety that spirit, clown, pyramid head, and deathslinger bring make survivor fun to me.
The only time I find a killer to be "boring" is when they camp and tunnel. Even if I'm going against a really good killer they are never "boring". Instead I'm excited to go against them and face a challenge. If the killer is a good spirit/nurse and I literally can't do anything against them to win, I still don't consider the killer "boring". I say this because me an average survivor messing around should never come close to outplaying that killer. The person playing that killer is playing the game at such a high level that someone only as equally efficient can beat. This is where I think it becomes more of a matchmaking issue where a good killer is paired up against 4 solo q's just chillin. Wouldn't it be nice to have an option to select when searching for a game if you just wanted to chill or be super sweaty when you play.
All killers to me can be boiled down to a play style that becomes monotonous once you have went against them a ton of times. The game is based around 50/50 decisions where some killers have more options to handle or initialize them. So I see why people think clown and deathslinger are "boring", since everyone plays the one way they can if they want to do good. It's similar to how killers don't want to go against full meta perk survivors, its unfun, predictable, and used a lot.
Essentially killers need a variety of ways to be played that allow them to have "fun" and be able to "win".
I enjoy these way more than gameplay aswell! please make more!
While I definitely appreciate the dislike of killers that can quickly end chases, I think it's important to remember that chases aren't the only way to evade a killer. And not only do some players like those ways more, but they're often more thematically appropriate.
Running around an obstacle in circles or jerking yourself around unpredictably at close range are almost something I'd call exploits, in the sense that I don't think that they're intended behaviour (or weren't when the game was designed). In short: feeling comfortable being chased by the killer shouldn't be a feeling players experience, and if you're in a game with a killer who kicks ass in chases, you have to get better at avoiding chases.
That doesn't mean that these complaints about killers making chases unfun isn't totally fair, but I just hate it when people talk about DbD as if chases are the only thing survivors can do to defend themselves and ignore a significant other part of the game. I feel like that fixation on chases also leads into most of the toxicity in the game, with survivors knowing full well that the three second chance perks and flashlight they have equipped will let them loop the killer for 'x' amount of time, do they just sit at 'checkpoints' teabagging and clicking their flashlight.
Anyway, that's my two cents. Maybe they should find some more overt ways of letting survivors hide easier so that that style of play is more overtly encouraged? I just hope Behaviour find a way to make those playstyle-invalidating killers a little less painful.
Yeah but billy and nurse are not considered “boring” killers even though they end chases very fast. They’re not boring because the more skilled player usually wins
This is not a stealth game, no matter what the devs seem to believe. You can't hide from the killer without putting your team at a disadvantage.
Having to adjust to a new strategy for killers is fine, honestly its JUST spirit that is bs. Its 50/50 whether or not I survive.
As someone who runs spinechill I have plenty of time to prepare against any killer. I dont see legion and sigh, I try to get bled first so I can do my gen in peace. Keeping objects between me and deathboy is tense and engaging. And yeah its unreactable, but you can 100% dodge predictions. Not everytime he aims.
Yeah survivors want to test their skill, but only on m1 killers with no power.
You don't see them complaining about trapper or hag just cucking their loops. Even though it was impossible to avoid without preparing.
Survivor is more than playing patty cake with the killer, its stealth and teamwork.
Survivors: You’re playing boring you bad player
Also survivors: 4 Decisives, 4 Dead Hards, 4 Borrowed Times, 4 Unbreakables
I kinda disagree with Deathslinger. I personally find playing against him interesting. The shot is often not reactable, but that makes juking sucessfully all the more rewarding. And I disagree that no skill goes into it. While you don't get a visual indication, with experience you get a feeling for when a Deathslinger is going to shoot. If he misses, he either becomes a slower m1 killer with no ability, or has to spend some time rewinding which allows me to get some distance, so I feel like I'm rewarded for evading. Against a good Deathslinger, I find it to be an interesting contest to anticipate each others moves. Further, your choices matter in terms of routing. Going into areas with lots of cover opposed to making a mistake by running into the open field. This is second nature to good survivors from playing against Huntress, but still a choice based on experience that matters for your chances of escape. Another thing you can sometimes do is, when injuried, position yourself so that you have a shot at breaking the chain before he can hit you. Fun is always a subjective thing and I'm not saying anyone who dislikes playing against Deathslinger is wrong. But I find it fun and disagree that my choices as survivor don't matter.
I also don't have as much of a problem with Spirit as many others, since not every Spirit is a god. Against a very good Spirit, you often get the my choices don't matter feeling. But I still find outplaying a less experienced Spirit rewarding from time to time.
The thing is, you can't "juke" or make a deathslinger "miss". It's the deathslinger themselves that miss. If you go to a window, and then fake vault it and the deathslinger misses, that's just because the deathslinger sucks. If he had just waited .2 seconds to see if you vaulted it or not, you would have been hit. If you vaulted it, he shot you over and now he gets a hit, and if you faked it, he just lowers his gun instantly and M1's you. All the deathslinger needs to do is just wait and see what you do. With huntress, she has to commit to a hatchet throw and if she decides that it's not a good idea to throw one she has to go thru a whole ass animation of lowering her hatchet to M1. Deathslinger doesn't have to do that. He can just tap it. "Juking successfully" against a deathslinger is "hoping the deathslinger sucks and that he misses his shot". Maybe if it's long range then yeah you can juke, but if you are close range in a chase, looping him, there is no way to juke him other than hope he misses. And if you think otherwise, you just aren't experienced enough in the game.
There isn’t much counter play is why he isn’t fun it forces you to play boring an guess similar to spirit
tbh all you need to be with spirit is decent if you want to 4k constantly, her skill cap is not that high and all you need with her is stridor and a headset and anyone with little experience can 4k with her lol
Felix 2906 play her for one day to go pro 😂
@@shinxyt7333 literally took me less than a day with her when i had 200 hours to get from rank 12 to rank 1 :D
this is the feeling i get as killer when i get a team that purely camps every single pallet. if your a killer that doesnt snowball a ton or has an easy way to deal with pallets, you lose. sure, all the survivors's resources get used up, but who needs resources when the game is already over.
Yes o my God I hate survivors that camp pallets it takes all skill away from the whole looping side of the game and turns it into, survivor drops pallet, you kick pallet till there are no pallets left on the map but not only is it extremely boring for killers survivors who camp pallets are also fucking over their team by creating these big deadzones where there is just nothing
JR Panday I don’t think that is as much of an issue, it’s when a whole team does it when it gets troublesome. Because as long as the 3 not being chased are doing gens, by the time the whole map is a deadzone it’s too late, the gens are already done. Doesn’t apply as much to nurse or billy, but killers like pig (my main) really rely on survivors playing pallets to get hits.
Agree 120% with Scott. His thoughts are almost the same as mine. I hope for a better more interactive "battle" between the killer and surv. Just like billy matches. Pretty much everything Scott said is dead-on when it comes to making great match experiences
Gabe GR that's called confirmation bias my friend
completely disagree with his opinion. When survivors say that the killer is boring, they're basically saying that they can't 5 gen chase a killer, nor 1vs1 the killer for entire game. I'd argue that it is boring for killer to have long chases on imbalanced looping structures where the killer lacks any agency in winning the loops. Its like pre determined loss vs SWF with optimal gen pressure when you can't even down people in 1 player in 1vs4 game.
then comes the 4man optimal SWF, which ruins that...
@@Feetism I call it agreeing with someone. I don't know why you call it that
@DODANG_ 914 When survivors say a killer is boring, the killer is boring.
10:30 I agree with what he's saying about wraith. But if a survivor brings spinechill, the attentive part basically gets thrown out the window and then wraith becomes super easy to go against.
You can fool spine chill by looking away while moving closer
@@fourtrash2598 You still gotta look at their direction eventually within the 36 meter radius. Spine chill will flash, and they'll be on their toes.
My opinion on how fun killers are:
Very fun:Billy, Oni, demo, huntress
Fun:Michel, pyramid head, ghostface, nurse
Normal: wraith, doc, plague, bubba, legion, pig,
Less fun: trapper, clown, Freddy, deathslinger
I wish I could dc with no punishment: hag, spirit
Iridescent head huntress?
Move billy in new category after nerf:
"all 4 of us survivors dc because we feel so bad for him"
I have been thinking about this, and to counter The Trapper, the one that makes a perimeter with traps to end chases quickly, you have to make your own safe perimeter. You know, pop the traps that he puts down in the area that you are, and force him to loop you there. Maybe. I don't know seems like an interesting concept. Countering trapper with his own method: the perimeter
agreeable
@@ItztheJolty If its just 1 it can be fun to play against!
Another 10/10 commentary video, cant get enough of them
Some of the trouble is looping is pretty boring to run as a killer. Also running any loops as killer at higher ranks basically guarantees your gonna lose because gens get done so fast you can’t afford to engage the loops; it’s in the hands of the survivors. The issue still comes back to gens. They’re unfun to work on because they’re boring, but they’re too easy to do quickly to play in a “fun” style, i.e. looping with survivors, dropping chases to try to spread pressure, etc. Gens are the root of all the games problems could be eased and killers wouldn’t need to be so built around ignoring loops if they could afford to spend more time in chases.
What is actually really like to see is unique add-ons for each survivor to make them play differently, and maybe giving them a special power. Something smaller, but then you could add in more variety to survivor gameplay. That’s also part of the issue, survivor core gameplay is boring because it’s always the same, but killers have variety in gameplay.
Survivors should probably have some sort of unique passive power tbf, maybe claudette heals 10% faster by default and meg runs 4% faster when outside of a chase or something like that
Wait? People don't like to chase survivors around loops? I thought that's why we played killer
@@DrRockyify I play way more killer, but most loops are really boring. Playing killer is fun because you get a cool unique power to use to hunt the survivors. Chasing is fun. Loops are not fun. I want a chase that goes all throughout the map, not one that is around the same L wall or debris tiles with a pallet. The longer the chase stays in a small area the more boring it is.
4:23 This describes release-day Xenomorph perfectly.
All this makes me remember the time when there were only 3 killers in the game. Adding nurse was a huge thing back then. Now i'm not even hyped for new killers anymore. They haven't added a decent killer for both sides in so long.
i think onis pretty decent on both sides (shame theres like barely any oni mains on console, but i understand why, its similar with billy)
but still, half a year of killers that just havent really reached nurse levels of hype kinda sucks.
@@haowig Back when nurse had 3 blinks and everyone was still bad at the game it was actually fun to play against a nurse. It's crazy how much they had to nerf after players became better at the game. It's just too bad that the devs themselves don't get better at understanding it themselves. It almost feels unprofessional at this point. The current state of this game with all these boring new additions and server issues is so bad it's a miracle that it's still alive.
@@haowig Oni is a fine killer. Only thing that makes him boring is trash teammates that can't loop him for 5 seconds at the start of the game
Fuck u, deathslinger and oni are pretty fun in my opinion, I hate huntress, nurse and pyramid head...
@@haowig The controlling has its flaws, but man it feels so good to smash the claudette with my big club
Finding something boring is subjective so I cant say youre wrong about finding some killers boring personally...HOWEVER I find your logic very flawed, when it comes to Deathslinger at least.
Maybe im biased because I love playing him but one of the reasons I like him to begin with is he forces players out of the autopilot loop tech that the so called "exciting" killers are forced to endure and makes both parties think of loops differently. You say it throws all the player experience out the window? Good. If this game is going to continue they have to make killers that keep survivors on their toes and give EVERYONE new ways of mindgaming and interacting with eachother.
Exactly.
How you mindgame a shot with deathslinger tho ???????????????????
But there’s a lack of counterplay/mindgames you can do in a large number of situations. You didn’t go down because you made a mistake or the killer did something particularly well. You often go down solely because the guy picked deathslinger and there was nothing you could do. I understand your logic with the exciting killers, but there has to be some balance to it. Deathslinger doesn’t have that.
Having to learn new counterplays against new killers isn’t the issue though - I find killers with unique counterplays (like Billy) actually really fun to play against. The real issue is the fact that there *is* no (or very little) counterplay in the first place for Deathslinger. That’s why he’s so unfun to play against. You’re often forced into situations where no matter whether you have 50 hours or 5,000 hours of experience in the game, you’re still almost certainly going to get hit. You end up having to rely on the killer messing up themselves rather than outplaying the killer yourself.
@@Sebby-oz3ve Not really mindgaming, just strafe left and right. or stay still. Its better to just drop the pallet.
But the issue here is, survivors doing loops is boring, there's no fun in loops its a purely transactional experience, even the mind games are standardized down to a fault. The most fun killers are the ones who can secure kills without looping cause of this. Making killers less boring for survivors make them more boring for killers cause loops as an idea are boring. This game is fundamentally flawed and fixing the backbone issues at this point is impossible. Balancing for skill across an asymmetrical game has never worked, if the game is responsive so its decided by survivor skill then its fundamentally frustrating for the killers, if the game is responsive to killer skills its fundamentally frustrating for the survivors.
This is a bad game, its always been a bad game, its a fun game for some people maybe, but its a bad game at its core. You cant fix this.
ya know I never really thought of it that way, my mans sorta has a point
That's why well designed killers have powers that interact with looping without completely ignoring it. Billy can chainsaw sprint and curve around corners to catch out survivors. Huntress is slow, but can punish predictable movement/pallet drops/window vaults. Demo's shred works similarly. Myers interacts with line of sight instead of avoiding hits which gives a new dimension to avoiding him. If you think looping is standardized just watch someone like Otzdarva play killer. Some stuff like killer's shack doesn't have much to explore anymore, but there is a ton of room to be creative in most loops that a lot of killers never explore. Dbd can be an amazing game, it's just that so often it's ruined by all the crappy design that still exists in the game.
@@jibrailhattar190 Imagine thinking that your subjective opinion on something is an objective fact. I also am bored to tears by looping being such a massive part of every match, especially when survivors have setups like god bus or cow shed.
@@Feekky loop for a minute, 3 gens done.
It’s a shame because Deathslinger is fun to play but boring to go against.
Billy: is balanced and fun
Devs: how about no
Poor Billy, I loved going against and playing as him
I think the devs should add a delay to deathslinger’s aim for maybe 1-2 seconds. They should keep the animation, just slow it, and have deathslinger whistle so only people in his terror radius (the survivor being chased) can hear it so it acts as a warning before the mind games start. Then getting out of aim should be much faster than aiming at first but there still needs to be a delay
This kinda makes me feel bad for maining deathslinger
Dont. Survivors are braindead and would rather run away in a straight line from loop to loop instead of adapting
@@hardboiled2987 No let's just throw survivors in the match to die. Might as well be playing with bots at this rate.
@@squidwardonachair1089 I would rather play with bots, cause at least they wouldn't bitch and whine or act like entitled shits when they 4 man SWF bully someone 10 ranks below them
@@ThndrMge Some people just want to dick around and play with their friends. 4 man SWF and SWF in general doesn't equal a sweaty team ganging up on the killer. That's not to mention you don't really have a concrete way to know if they're SWF unless their friends' list is public. I'm a solo survivor main and mettle of man is in my every build. 9/10 matches I get accused of being SWF because I play altruistic and take hits for my team. I play killer here and there and I've went against SWF. Contrary to common believe they're not actually evil. They're just trying to have fun, like me and everyone else who plays dbd.
I love playing against him. Completely disagree with Scott
Really having fun binge watching your DbD discussion videos.
Love the commentary Scott but either I’m crazy or the background music was tad bit too loud
Yeah I think it's a bit louder than normal in this video
Mejula theme can never be loud enough. If my eardrums arent bleeding then it's too quiet
You still can hear him talk just fine, just watch the video.
You're crazy.
I try to stray away from Boring Killers when I play the game. It just doesn't feel as satisfying to down a survivor with them. It's somewhat fun just killing a survivor quickly with a spirit because they just can't tell where I am or if I'm still on them but it just gets old after a while. Spirit I feel could see changes that make her more fun in the future, but Deathslinger I don't think they're ever gonna do right. A shame, really. I like being able to enjoy the game as any killer. I hope that'll be possible in the future. Can't put any input in on Pyramid Head, don't have him :/. I do enjoy playing as Nurse and Doctor though. Probably because I can't play either of them too well, not sure.
Doctor is really strong, but 99% of doctors I go against don't use him correctly and he becomes a m1 killer with tracking abilities. I hardly get stopped from windows or pallets.
^^ Or just make it where he can’t shoot 1000 shots in one trial?
Solus 22 his whole things is about the gun. Would you prefer a bullet.
yh i feel ye on this one, i rarely play killers i dont like, im currently maining huntress out of all of the killers i have xD
@@justmonika2345 Oh of course, there's so many ways that Deathslinger could be reworked to make him more fun to play as and against. I was just saying that the Devs are never going to get it right, if they even try getting it right in the first place.
As a hag main a lot of people call me boring. Whilst they may have a point in rare occasions, they're often the ones who make bad plays such as allowing themselves to be pulled off a hook save after triggering my trap and choosing to ignore it.
I understand and agree with a lot of what you said in this video about how some things could be “boring” for survivors, but I have to disagree on some things. A lot of what you said was “boring” were the mind games that both sides have to play. Spirit faking someone out or using her ability in general is a mind game, you have to predict and adjust your strategy as time goes on. Same with Deathslinger, if he keeps faking a shot you can learn that and prepare for it. If these mind games were changed, and there was only one thing for every killer to do, then it would be EXTREMELY easy for survivors to beat. In any asymmetric game, the 1 should outclass the 4. The survivors get 3 chances for a reason (even more when they use perks like DS, Borrowed time, unbreakable, blinds, etc.), they are not supposed to win every chase. So if there was going to be changes to these killers where the mind games were taken out, they would have to replace that with strength, otherwise you just have a bad killer. I think the main problem with this game is that the devs have been setting it up so any survivor can 1v1 a killer if the killer doesn’t decide to just leave them (which also isn’t fun to do), and to patch this up they make killers that may not necessarily be entirely fair or fun for the survivors. In the end, killers want to chase, and survivors don’t want to get downed, but the problem is that neither things are done well. A killer can’t chase, or they lose too much time and the game’s over. A survivor will still go down eventually, but they will inevitably get out if they have a competent team and did well in the chase. The problem for survivors in most cases is that they don’t have a competent team, but that is because most survivors never have to learn that part of the game because while their off doing nothing the one person who knows how to play is off running the killer around all game. The only real fix I have for this is for the devs to make up their mind whether or not they want this game to be ranked, because if they just came out and got rid of the ranks it might take away some of the pressure for both sides to be so focused on winning and have time to just have fun chasing instead of worrying if the rest get out. But idk how they could honestly fix everything wrong with this game at this point. Anyway that was my Ted talk, thank you for listening.
Alright, I gotta say I very much enjoy these discussion videos. Keep them up!
I wish he had commented on Doctor. A lot of people complain about him now, but I think he's a well designed killer after his rework.
People hate doctor because they can’t use all of their broken things . They can’t use their blendette outfits . They can’t use infinites , they are obligated to do something else and change their style .
@@Palkia_Onslaught_Gal except for the fact that he doesn't really work anymore. He's broken on dedicated servers.
@@Avoltech I know . P3 doctor main . And yet .
@@Palkia_Onslaught_Gal Infinites don’t exist anymore.
Wraith is my favorite killer
I feel like if Wraith was less addon dependent, than I'd totally pick him up. His base kit doesn't even have to be that good, but playing him as is just feels really bad without addons imo.
People think deathslinger is boring? Escaping him is near completely different from other killers via his literal fucking gun. I thought people’s idea of a “fun” killer is a killer that is really unique and requires a change in strategy to counter.
I think diverse linearity is a healthy thing. Some killers should reward survivors who can loop well, and others should punish survivors who use it as a crutch. If you have multiple killers that deny you certain abilities and reward others, that is a good thing.
Killers that punish survivors for using a crutch?? Is the crutch looping because that’s what they are countering💀💀
That’s like a survivor perk that doesn’t let the killer moon walk or lunge or sumthing. Taking away things that the killer can use against them
Indeed, running in circles while staring back very fun much skill. I play killers that break this dynamic of the game intentionally. Running in circles to get a pallet drop is the least engaging game play.
well what are survivors meant to do, crouch around the corner of the map and walk in a straight line all game? if you dont like the mechanic of looping, dont play dbd. simple as that.
@@haowig if you don't like playing against killers that break that dynamic of the game, don't play the game. Simple as that.
josh stites its less breaking dynamic, and just forcing you into “damned if you do damned if you dont” situations but sure thing
@@Joshisold85
"If you don't like something about a game you enjoy, just don't play it, 4Head."
10/10 logic there, my friend.
@VLight no skin off my back considering it's not my logic. It's the previous posters logic inverted back on them. My logic was stated in the initial post I made.
These are by far my favorite things you put out so I am all for more of it 😁
I think you're completely right with Deathslinger and Spirit, but I think Behaviour did a great job designing pyramid head. It's not too hard to dodge his ranged attacks and in order to always dodge it you have to do some guessing but it's a healthy amount
What do you do if he cancels the ranged attack? Scott's point is even if you juke all the PH has to do is cancel and M1, he's not locked into his power.
Yeah but at a pallet u can’t do anything, if u drop it you get it hit , if u don’t he stops his power and m1s you and he can do it super quickly it’s super mindless
badrepo he’s still be slowed down. He moves slower even when canceling the ranged attack. You also shouldn’t use the range attack up close to a survivor. You use it for loops. You can’t m1 around a loop.
I'd love to hear a discussion between you Umbra and Tru3 on these type of subjects because I hear it in the dialog sometimes while all of you stream but, it really would be nice to see some high level players that play both sides of the spectrum talk about changes to improve killer and survivor interactions. Also, thank you, I learned how to play DBD watching your tiles video which helped improve my understanding of the game immensely.
While I do see where you're coming from, I also have to kind of disagree.
There is really no problem with having Killers that force drastically different playstyles on Survivors, much like how the Doctor does not allow Stealth play and other Killers like Nurse or Spirit force it. We could argue that there are too many Anti-Loop killers, and I would agree with that, but a big problem with Survivors who complain about Killers being boring is that they have one way of playing the game and never want to change that.
A Killer player should be able to pick and choose certain killers who help them out with what they are lacking; I am horrible at finding Survivors unless they're at gens, and so I play a lot of Doctor. A Killer who can't loop should be able to pick a Killer who can ignore loops.
Also, look at how BHVR has managed to treat the Killers that they try to "bring in line". Legion has been gutted twice over with only the first time being justified, Billy is getting demolished, No one plays Nurse because she's incredibly frustrating to play now, and you could go on.
You see this is where I disagree. IMO killers should be able to severely hinder certain play styles, not completely eliminate them.
Gen speed is a much larger issue than any of the high tier killers lol
Not an issue to the devs when they tell you "You're going to lose one or two gens at the start"
@zalgo I can’t tell you how many games I’ve lost 2 gens at the start and that’s all that got done. Not a big deal tbh
zombieaids yea imo losing 2 gens at the start of the match is normal to me the game wouldn’t be balance if killer could just 4k with 5 gens up
@@ZombieaidZ I realize, I'm just saying that's how the game will progress according to devs, meaning the speed is where they want it to be
I’m a ghostface main. And I ignore the survivors that just want a chase. They never do gens so I go for their teammates first, Then I go for the “I wanna show my skill off” players. Survivors just cry and moan about everything.
Ever consider that doing gens is boring as hell and these Survivors don't always want to "show off their skill" but to just get chased since it's fun?
@@VFG204 then they cry about tunneling wah wah wah, 80% of survivors are just cry babies they always find something to sulk over, and they wonder why noone wants to play killers, then cry about q times
Personally I find DeathSlinger incredibly fun to go against. You can bait to evade shots to buy time and distance, that feeling when you narrowly avoid the harpoon and it whizzes right past you is awesome and really gets you going and invested in the chase, plus the killer player has to have decent aim to land their shots, and even then they need the sense to land them at times where you don’t just snap the hook right off behind a thin tree or rock. It’s kinda like playing against huntress, you need to respect the killers potential or you’re gonna have a bad time.
That the fun i think Scott forgot, one person can find a killer boring but another could find it fun. Since having a killer that focus you to change things up, could be fun. Since it's not the same thing each and every time. If it were, that sounds like it would get rather boring quickly or rather just repeating the same thing over and over again without end.
i hate going against a spirit as much as the next guy, but i also hate going into the endgame lobby and always seeing one of 5 perks, usually multiple times
12:30
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Tbh everytime I go agains't a freddy I feel like they are roleplaying or smth because it is so boring to go against it that I unironically get sleepy irl
If freddy has pallets, you just have to wish this pallet is not fake, because you can't have vision in all of the map, specially as a solo survivor, so unless you have empathy or Aftercare, you don't know which pallets were used and which haven't.
If he has dream snares, it's even worse
literally no downside on putting on in the current loop, because you don't get slowed down when setting your trap nor stopped in place like literally Hag and Trapper
Yes, I know hag has this thing that even moves your camera, and that trapper literally grants a free hit, meanwhile freddy is just a slow down
but he does not even have to recharge them like Clown does or anything, he just press M2 and lures the survivor to go against
and if you just use discordance - Pop - Tremors (that ghostface perk), and corrupt, It's literally a free pip
fuck, you don't even need corrupt if you know what you are doing smh
i honestly don't understand how some people think freddy is balanced.
Now imagine someone who doesn’t play these annoying characters but can’t win because of ds,unbreakable,dead hard, and iron will. The killer should have an advantage but it shouldn’t be boring to go against.
The only thing I want to point out is that you can wake up and thats how you counter him. This applies more to the pallets then the snares but even then I had a good team go against me and would wake up and avoid the first hit for as long as possible. It was a very hard game and only one gen was left but they 3 gened themselves so it was a gg, had they not done that they could have won the match
JustPlaying he is balanced he’s just not fun to go up against. The only counter to him is waking up which is tedious on its own.
@@OwlpoAnimations yea, you have to run across the map to wake up, or find a teamate of miss a skillchecks which doesnt matter either way since u will go back to the dreamstate less than a minute. I think they need to remove the timer to the dreamstate. So the only way to go to the dreamstate is getting hit by freddy. And make it the only wake up is to find a teammate or find the clocks.
Freddy literally makes me sleep and i always roll my eyes other than that its not that bad
dude the moment freddy gets mentioned my eyes get tired lmao
I hate spirit she's literally no fun to play against at all
But it's fun to play as her xD.
I love standing in one place and then they come right into me because they thought I was phasing xD
Scott I feel like you need to know the difference between a prediction and a guess. Deathslinger is a prediction on what he is doing as the situation you are in is very clear to you and you understand most possible outcomes if you have experience against slinger. This is similar to a TL wall mindgame and a huntress pallet 50/50. Spirit is a guess as the situation on where she is moving is unknown and you have no clue of what she is planning to do.
Also IMO skill isn't deleted against slinger, what loops you run to, your positioning and your initial distance all help increase the chase. Skill also helps predict based on the skill level of the slinger player what shots he might or might not take. Spirit on the other hand though has too many options and is pretty absurd.
You can easily dotch deathslinger, just break line of sight, go around walls and stay away from windows
@@s66s46 Ah yes, because you can spawn LOS blockers at will. Windows are also literally 50% of the evasion mechanic survivors have.
@@ScottJund 100%. He has a wonky 24m terror radius, or 16m with M&A. His chain is 18m. With M&A he's already in chain range by the time you hear his TR. Unless if survivors are in a SWF or they're using one of a few specific perks (OoO, Spine Chill, Premonition) they have basically no warning that he's coming until he's right on top of them. Even in a SWF you won't know where he is a lot of the time, depending on the map. If you could pick where you engage Deathslinger such that you're always near a safe pallet, sure, that would remove a lot of his threat. That's not how it goes, though.
I'd be super down with making him 115% movement speed and increasing his maximum chain length, but also increasing his TR, increasing his ADS time substantially, increasing his reload time a bit, and removing the ability to deep wound healthy survivors who break free from the chain. I think that would increase the skill ceiling for Deathslinger by letting him pull off some really long range shots, but also give survivors much more counterplay in a chase. Increasing the punishment for Deathslinger missing a shot and improving his general chase potential with the 115% movement speed would force him to be more selective about when to use his power, increasing his TR would mean less free hits. Dodging his shots would now be possible with the longer ADS time too, which would be huge.
Huntress is a great example of how to do a ranged killer right. She has extremely high snowball potential, but her hatchets can be dodged, she can be looped on some tiles, she has to be smart about when to use hatchets because having none almost always means dropping chase, and she's vulnerable to stealth because of her lullaby. She's one of the killers I enjoy playing against most despite how good she is.
@@notstarboard But huntress hitboxes with her hatchets are so broken, it isnt fun to verse her at all, even if the hatchet passes you it hits...
@@ScottJund Pls explain what you mean
I made a similar comment on Reddit although mine was about killers who can spam their power and basically give you no option but to drop the pallet like Freddy, Clown, Doctor and such and how it can lead to boring gameplay and got lit up by some really offended people who were calling me an entitled survivor and that I shouldn’t complain about everything a killer does and such. I wasn’t even complaining, just stating my opinion since we were on a topic like it and I was downvoted like crazy. I play more killer than survivor and I’ve been rank 1 on both for the longest so it shows how toxic/blind both sides can be to actual opinions.
Reddit is full of entitled baby killers
For peeps looking for the music in the background, it's: Dark Souls 2 OST - Majula
I just hope that one day, the devs actually listen to some of the community's complaints and... do something about them for once.
Seems like they just do whatever the hell they want and just wing it.
Also I'm a barber IRL, I could give you a haircut for free if you come to Brazil hahahaha
Do you mean like when they nerfed the Nurse? Or like nerfing Billy's chainsaw then fixing it before they release it? Or like buffing Bubba... or like nerfing Legion... then rebuffing Legion. OR did you mean like when they reworked Freddy... or perhaps you meant when they removed god loops and made large maps a bit smaller? ALL of these things were asked for by the community.
Honestly the Devs just seem to have no idea what they’re doing most of the time. Nerfing the most balanced and fun killer to play and play against, and adding new killers that break the game’s core mechanics to the extent of them being dreadfully boring to play against. All they know is they want money quickly, and the quicker they can push out rushed killer designs and expensive cosmetics, the better from their point of view.
I don’t think these complaints are valid. (With the exception of spirit, she should be nerfed) Survivors who actually think playing against a death slinger, or clown, or doctor is unfun should really stop and consider the other side. How fun do you think it is to go against a team with 16 meta perks, 4 items, and coms? How fun is it to run endlessly around the map, constantly breaking pallets and seeming like you get no closer to hitting them? The same people that complain about unfun killers are the same ones that believe that dead hard and decisive strike are balanced. A good survivor with dead hard is basically untouchable if they are anywhere close to even a filler pallet or loop. And they’re the same ones that will taunt the killer and jump in a locker forcing them to either eat the DS or leave them alone for 60 seconds. From the killers perspective, flashlights can be considered boring to play against too. You skillfully down somebody, and If they aren’t in a position where you’re directly facing a wall, you have 2 options. Chase the guy with the flashlight away and have the downed person get healed, or pick them up and be blinded from 3 different angles. There is quite literally, no in between with good survivors. It’s just like the nurse situation, or the deathslinger situation. If they don’t get the blind, it’s because they messed up the timing, not because of anything skillful you can do to avoid it. In my opinion, saying certain killers aren’t fun or boring is a negative mindset, as both sides have their equal share of bullshit that they can pull off, with no counterplay.
Been watching your content for a year now and I just realized I'm not sub so here you go you earned it
Boring is subjective. There are people who find playing against Spirit fun. While others find playing against Spirit boring. For if we base it on boring, than haddonfield and ormond would be changed long ago, for oh woot pallet after pallet on ormond that allows a survivor to keep a chase going for ages, without taking into account the power of the main building as well.
You should not base your reasoning on x being boring. It should be base on balance and counters. What can i do against x? For if we base on boring. We have to take into account how fun the killers are and what is boring for a killer. For boring goes both ways, not just one way.
*For those that don't want to read my whole personal experience/spiel the tl;dr is basically there are boring and irrational aspects for both sides. There's a huge disconnect because players might play one side more than the other or not at all. So it is appreciated and should be worth noting that when content creators and other players who have hundreds and thousands of hours equally on both sides point things out you don't just shit on them and actually do consider their arguments at least a little bit.*
- I think a lot of the disconnect in the argument happens because people don't play both sides. As a survivor I do enjoy at least some level of interaction with a killer every game. It's extremely boring to be a gen-jockey every game, for the entire game. Whether that interaction comes in a full blown chase or just me trying to avoid being noticed as I skirt around rocks or trees because my gen is in a dead zone. Both of those are at least moments where I feel that risk-reward and the exchange of skills or ability. This doesn't hold true for a few particular killers though.
- When I realize I'm playing against spirit, deathslinger, Freddy and (depending on map) clown; my entire game plan changes to "push gens and go next" simply because interaction with these killers isn't fun or rewarding. However, the same is also true when I play as these killers. I don't often feel like I'm making smart decisions with these characters more so than survivors being limited by my kit. Unlike some killers where I feel I have full rights to exercise my skill on either end; such as trapper and billy. As a survivor I can, for the most part, find ways to play around the two. Of course you have situations where a trap blends almost perfectly or billy just spots you in a dead zone leading to a free back-rev but those are isolated incidents. In chase, you almost always have options and input. On the flip side, I love games where I set up traps and even if I lose a gen or two I immediately get a player snapped up and force someone into a second. I also love the feeling of getting a nasty curve around a corner as billy and getting those hits.
- In the end I just think that people that immediately shit on one side's opinions tend to lack experience in that position. Both sides have frustrations just as Scott pointed out. Some killers have little to no counterplay and force one playstyle, which in a game where your only individuality is your perks, ruins your whole experience sometimes. If you never play as survivor, you never realize how awful these situations feel. Adversely, killers also get headaches from a few core survivor benefits. Having multiple loops in close proximity feels great to run but to get hit with a long loop into double t-wall into jungle gym with safe pallet *cough ormond and rancid abattoir* feels freaking awful. I think there are a few other things that really drag down enjoyment of the game but those are other more system issues: poor hit reg (hopefully next update fixes this), ridiculous variation in tile spawns and the terrible ranking system topping the list but those are for a different argument.
You got completely ignored because you weren't riding the 'survivor fun' bandwagon, but you're right.
I fail to see the difference between guessing against spirit/deathsliger and guessing against billy/demo/whoever or just the guessing game that is always present in looping.
If all killer options can be beaten with appropriate reactive survivor options then killers obviously have no way to ever win, and that's why there always has to be a guessing game involved. No matter what killer you're against as survivor, there is going to be a situation where you're in a tile being chased and you'll have to make a choice between something like vaulting a window or faking the vault, and if the killer correctly guesses which choice you made you get hit. I don't see much of a difference between this and something like dropping a pallet during spirit's invis and either vaulting over it or staying on the same side, and that's why I can't really understand the attitude of being so heavily against guessing in gameplay.
And this isn't even to really debunk someone saying spirit or other killers like her are boring. If someone finds the game exciting when they can apply their knowledge of how to optimally run loops etc. then sure they'll propably enjoy playing less when against killers that don't play around the specific guessing game of looping. But at the highest level of play where all survivors and killers know optimal ways to play loops don't chases all boil down to the same thing? After some amount of time you are going to get downed as a survivor, guess wrong and you'll go down faster, guess right and you'll buy more time for the team.
I wanna give you another like i hope people understand what you r saying
The difference is that against normal killers you can see what they are doing and have time to react to their actions so if you get hit or down, you either fucked up or got outplayed, but against spirit and deathslinger you just guess and pray because, you can't see the spirit so all the loops at every moment becomes a bet (and let's not bring stridor here cause if you're injured there is no guess you are just dead) , and have no time to react to deathslinger
@@wfac1997 But if you always have time to react to the killer's actions then how is the killer ever going to hit a survivor (other than with bloodlust I guess)? What does getting outplayed actually mean at that point?
That's when the guessing gets fun, on those loops you can see the killer, because you know the number of safe loops you have and then the guess is to drop the pallet or greed trying to bait the drop, but against spirit you don't have that inicial chase (unless she commits to it) it's just guessing, and then again if you are injured no chase for you. And with deathslinger again, no chase, you just play boring and drop it or get it.
I'll put an example of killers shorting loops that's not unfun, wraith uncloaking at a loop, you can see it's movement and you know he's faster than you after that, you want to save the must time for your teammates so obviously dropping the pallet is the safe option but that would be boring, there's no chase. Since wraith is faster if he mind game you, you got outplayed, if not you got a chase. The thing is that you have a way to try to stole time with the knowledge you have and not with just some coin toss.
Sorry if it is too long
@@wfac1997 I feel like killers almost always swing at the pallet instead of trying to bait a drop so extra loops rarely happen, but that another element of guessing, sure. I don't quite understand the situation you mean with the wraith example, sorry. But yeah, if you think that style of guessing game between killer and survivor is more fun than some other kind (ie. spirit), that's completely understandable.
Nobody:
Emo Scott: "UHN"
There's still plenty to do against slinger, just gotta keep making distance and breaking line of sight, in the same vein you'd treat a nurse.
Did you even listen to the video
Slinger is easy to go against. I enjoy going against him. Imagine wanting to be chased all game and not get a single gen done.
How do you break line of sight when the hordes of M&A-using Deathslingers are already basically on top of you before you even hear the TR? The first hit is borderline free unless you're really lucky about where you are when he shows up. If you happen to be repairing one of those new Autohaven gens in the middle of a dead zone when he shows up that's basically going to be a 10 second chase. Free first hit, speared before you find an obstacle he can't shoot over, downed.
You can't really gain distance within chain length if he's any good. If you run in a straight line, you're an easy target and he'll shoot you in the back. If you try to dodge, you'll lose distance and he'll walk up and hit you. If you're on a map like Lery's where it's nothing but walls and corners, sure, maybe you can break LOS. If not, good luck with that.
I think the main issue with DBD, is that there is only one mode. Could you imagine other survival modes that focus on some different escape mechanism that isn't gens and pallet looping? Devs could look into other survival games that would benefit certain killers skills more than what the current mode is. Also, I think a practice area would be great too (especially with the bigger ones that take time to learn building areas). So much energy is put into killer and survivor nerfs/buffs, when I think the game play itself could use some new mode that would really refresh things to learn new skills and possibly test old ones.
I've heard about you a lot, but honestly until recently, hadn't watched many videos. I've now seen a few of your videos examining different issues, and I love hearing your perspective on these things. Too many people I watch seem to have a perspective that favors one side. And I for sure can't give the best views on things, because I haven't played nearly as much killer as I have survivor. But what I generally find it, I'd say, what you said near the end here: I don't want games where I'm just going down in two seconds and it feels like nothing I did mattered. But I also don't want games where the killer clearly had no chance and everybody gets out with ease. And for sure, with both of these, the skill level of the killer and survivors have to be considered. I definitely feel I need to improve when I go down clearly because I'm playing poorly. But it sucks when it feels like you generally play well, and things go to shit because of a few random chance or luck-based things.
Honestly when survivors say a killer is "boring" just means that they can't loop for multiple gens or whatever and killers that aren't "boring" are one's that you can (which results in 5 gens gone in the blink of an eye most of the time). Also, I want to point out that in order to "win" as killer, with more fun but garbage killers especially at rank 1, you have to try hard af and that gets exhausting but I'm competitive lol
Except nurse and billy are fun to play against but can also end chases very quickly
Are we gonna not talk about Pyrimid head and how he can just cancel his AoE without penalty?
I think it’s fine lol
@Justin Guaragno It's more the fact that they can disable the loop by using the corrupted effect which purposely tries to discourage the survivor but ALSO the fact that if he doesn't use his AoE to hit you because you dont throw down the pallet, he can then just M1 you.
@@oneshotfox its just to punishing if u miss ur AoE have u never played him because i think u do the same thing as him
Pyramid Head takes quite a bit of getting use to and really isn't as good as people make him out to be. He's quite easy to counter. Sure, sometimes you'll come across some really good Pyramid Head and he gets everyone fairly quickly.... but in reality... that's just a good killer player and would have done the same thing to you with just about any killer they use. Using PH doesn't make someone a better player any more than using Nurse or Billy does.
@BananaDoggo What about huntress fkn hitboxes?! How the hell is oni and deathslinger broken?
These kind of videos are amazing! Keep doing them! Btw for a future video you can talk about the stretched resolution topic 'cause it's a very interesting and hot topic in the community
When will you finally join the cool killer club and come to dbd?
That music is so relaxing, it’s making me sleepy 😴 ☁️
I played blood echo Legion and got called boring, all 4 survivors also happened to have exhaustion perks
The only exhaustion perk I use is balanced landing heh.
The rest restrict your movement or don't work because of lag
Like me when I played clown the other day and people called me boring and literally stated it was boring to face him because they couldn't loop for days....I'm a survivor main but holy shit survs are trash tbh.If any single thing doesn't go their way it's instant insults and complaints about how you played the killer.
Although i agree with what scott says. I disagree with playing against deathslinger. For being 110% killer his power isn't even that great. Even if he lands his shot its not guaranteed the down.If the survivor just puts down the pallet the deathslinger has to destroy it and give up on chasing the survivor or he just ends up wasting time chasing, which aint great for a 110% kiler. I definitely agree with scotts other points tho.
Yea I agree too deathslinger isn’t much of a problem compare to spirit since he is slow for a reason balance reasons but the problem imo is his heart beat with
M&A he can basically sneak up on survivor which I dislike
I think you guys didn't quite get the point. He just said his power is boring to play against. Not too strong.
Hope you do keep doing these- I love discussion videos like this.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but do y'all consider why people play these so called 'boring killer's'? Or are killer's just bots that are responsible for survivor's fun?
I hate to be that guy, but I feel l that people calling killer's boring is just a way of saying "I hate that I can't loop, or have to use different tactics against certain killer" I play survivor, but I don't hold killer's accountable for my fun and I love going against killer's that actually make me use my brain
I feel the same as a survivor main. I didn’t finish the whole video but he keeps talking about not being able to use skill and stuff about just guessing and being lucky against death slinger and spirit but the thing is those guesses are educated guesses based off of experience. I juke death slingers and spirits a lot because a majority of them play the same so you can tell what they are doing. Not only that but even when you 360 another killer or even dead harding that is technically a guess too because you’re guessing that they are going to swing instead of continuing to run
Survivors are too used to get away with doing the fun stuff like running looping and 360. When a killer comes that denies that it is "not fun". Well, now they know how fun it is to be new at killer. Play what you like to play if they don't like it too bad, there is no pleasing survivors anyway so play like you want.
I feel like spine chill is boring for a killer because a lot of time the survivor knows I’m there as wraith or ghost face before I know they’re there and I feel like I shouldn’t have to moonwalk just to counter this perk. Another perk is decisive I like the idea for it being an anti tunneling perk but lockers make it too strong because you either take the DS or be locker spammed for the duration of the perk. I feel like when you grab a survivor from a locker you should drop them or something
See thats why this new killer is gonna be really good! His gameplay is more centered around before/after loops and his power is dodgeable enough to not always be bullshit.
Can we start a petition to hire scott for bhvr, like he actually plays the game, thinks logically, and uses his head!
I just disagree, there is skill to juke deathslinger, sure it comes with map awareness and looping knowledge but you can still mind game / juke a deathslinger
There are too many moments against Deathslinger or Pyramid Head where there simply isn’t any counterplay, that’s the issue. Consider this - if a Deathslinger holds up his weapon as if to shoot you, you’re forced to move in random directions in order to avoid being shot. This then forces you to deadzone yourself, which means he can just immediately put down his weapon and M1 you, giving him a free hit. But if you don’t move in random directions and continue running, he can just shoot you from a distance, which will also give him a free hit. There’s no escape - you have to rely on the killer messing up. That’s a matter of relying on chance, not on your own “skill”. That’s why he’s so unfun. There’s such a lack of counterplay and such a lack of having the ability to utilise your existing skills as survivor added on to the fact that the killer himself takes so little skill to get free hits.
You know what isn't fun for killers? When the gens are so quick you can't do anything to win even with extremely short chases, but hey let's nerf all killers
Just don't play boring killers and we all are good.
@@FahadGG1 lmao "just play what we want you to play and it's fine" 500iq
Imagine a PVP game where both teams have fun
Addition: What if when The Spirit activates haunting:
- She phases into the overworld periodically
- She has a visual indication of the direction she is moving in
- Survivors peridoically phase into the Spirit's vision but show no indication of which direction they're moving in, and their images are only snapshots that do not have an animation
- Sounds of survivors are only present when survivors phase into The Spirit's vision, but persist for x seconds afterward (maybe alterable with addons)
- Yamoaka's Haunting does not give a lunge bonus
- Yamaoka's Haunting lasts slightly longer by default
- Scratch marks have a 1 second appearance delay for the Spirit
You want all of those implemented? Because that's how a killer foes from A tier to D
@@KishinAkenm No I think it's a nice balance. I'm just spitballing ideas here, and Spirit is definitely S tier lol. I'm a killer main myself and even I can admit she's a great deal stronger than other killers. Too much of a strength differential. I think for her power there has to be some sort of information exchange so the survivor can be prepared to evade her, and the Spirit can get enough information to mind game faster than other killers. Maybe the changes I suggested are too heavy but I think something similar could work. Maybe the changes need to be subtler. Either way, I think she needs a very slight nerf. A nerf so small that maybe BHVR will be incapable of implementing it lol
I'm really loving these types of videos, Scott, keep em going. I enjoy the genuine conversations they spark up and I think it's something we desperately need to keep this game from withering. It's not about just one side, it's about the game as a whole. Everyone that is still playing this game just wants to see the game improve.