I think the Artificer is really cool. It’s got support, it’s got combat. It’s honestly a really neat generalist class. You can do pretty much anything with it, gaining more specialization with subclasses. It’s definitely not the best nor the worst, but it can cover so much ground. You can have a whole team of them and they can all be different. Bard, arguably, does that better. What hurts the artificer the most is the fact that it’s a half caster. Bard covers several of the support and damage options that Artificer has, but is also a full caster. But that doesn’t change how useful an artificer can be. Not to mention the fact that almost all artificers have a way to attack with Intelligence resource-free. So you can really mainline that.
@@butterham7 Amen to that. I love playing a heavily armored character that still can do a lot of utility. To me, what makes the artificer shine is the ability to craft items- not just with the infusions and the like, but actual crafting. For once it feels like the tools you pick have a use. I love playing the type of character who makes gear for the team and gets it enchanted with rad abilities.
@@jackcook9005 You are definitely not wrong. I’ve been trying to learn the artificer in 3.5 where things are far weirder and more chaotic. Admittingly that’s how 3.5 works. Lots of numbers.
Offbeat: calls artificer a support class. My friends atificer: casually tanks a meteor swarm and 5 attacks from a tiamat avater level boss that was meant to kill us for plot reasons at level 14.
Also, Artificer is the best tank, even better than barbarian. they have both insane ac, bonkers saves, and only one real needed stat so you can max constitution with almost no downsides.
@@kiwi8105 its arguably harder to kill than the barbarian, but its laughable that it could be the best tank. Even the battle smith can only get a taunt effect on one unit. Barb has low AC and gives enemies advantage on attacking it, whilst being enough of an offensive presence that its a threat the enemy jas to deal with, whereas theres very little stopping the enemies from just not hitting you. Artificer is a broken gud class and i love it, but its a bad tank realistically speaking
level 5 artificer with 18 ac here just from infusions. i dealt less damage personally than other people failing to hit me. using cantrips and magic weapons to reck them.
@@RedQuill13 I specifically built one of my artificers to be a tank. It got an ac of 19 by level 1, and that ac scaled very well, along with him having a custom magic item that just tore through enemies. They can be very good tanks
To give Artificer some credit: A Bag of Holding very early on in an adventure is very nice to have. Not to mention how high AC can get with it. Armorer is also quite useful for the Thunder Gauntlets, making it so a successful attack means enemies have to target a high ac target or roll on disadvantage on your teammates. I'm currently playing a Kobold Armorer. Thunder Gauntlets + Grovel, cower and beg is hilarious sometimes with how dumb it can be. Granted, lets be honest though, every class has their strength and weaknesses, and what matters is how you have fun with any class
Artificer is really good in tier 1, when there's almost no magic items in the party, mellows down to mediocre in tier 2 and then becomes really good in tier 3 again, but in tier 4 it really struggles with not having higher level spells I feel. The most overlooked part about the entire artificer, as far as I feel, is the 11th level "spell storing item". Everyone calls it mediocre, creating an item that can cast 10 2nd level spells at most. But there's a 2nd level spell called 'aid', which appears in the artificer spell list. It's generally a cleric spell, and I have seen higher level clerics use up 5 spell slots before an adventure just to give everyone in the party 40-50hp. The spell storing item can give the party 10 of these casts without breaking into the normal casting, giving a party of 3 100 hp each, or giving a 6 member party 50hp each. It doesn't give the artificer high level spells, But combined with the infusions and other artificer abilities it pulls up to being about equal to a 13th level cleric. And since clerics are god tier, that's really saying something. Also, even if your dm is against flying magic items, at 10th level you can make yourself a pair of winged boots and be a flying iron man.
@@adamjsher04 I still agree with b tier though, you can build them to be A tier if you make one well, but if you're less experienced you are better of with half the classes.
@@Olav_Hansen EXCEPT (PHB p.205, "Combining Magical Effects") this would be a great thing for your GM to read. The effect doesn't stack is the short answer. So if this one interaction is what makes them good in your book and the interaction doesn't even work..... Doesn't that make them crap again?
Most ranger subclasses can benefit a lot from Fighter multiclass, but fighter can also benefit from Gloomstalker subclass(unless the game gets to lvl 20).
I love my Monk, but you make all valid points. There's a ton of creatures that are immune to stun. You can't do 100+ points of damage in a round without specific subclasses or magic items. And the weapon and armor restrictions mean you get to watch everyone else upgrade their gear doing more damage while you are punching things with your magic unarmed strikes. So yes, monk is arguably the worst class in combat. It is still a lot of fun though. (I could make similar arguments for my artificer.)
Monk live and die on homebrew. Will your gm will use a monk buff. Will he allow a hombrewed subclass. Will he creat items for monks(like +2 gloves or something cooler)
Around 2.8~% (lets call it 3%) of existing 5e monsters are immune to stun. Even if you add creatures with high wisdom and proficiency in wisdom saves to drop the probability of a halfway optimized setup dropping below 20% chance to stun its still only up to 8% with the bulk of it being god damn variants of dragons, the high cr celestials, cleric-classed humanoids and the demon lords+archdevils. Not that the point about lack of a true/dedicated nova subclass and interesting/impactful official magic item options (beyond tats, bracers and the Exandria content gear) isnt true.
I enjoy your tier lists, thank you for making me feel good for choosing a Paladin for my first character lol. I'd love to see videos of subclass tier lists from you in the future.
Sorcerer angry rage comment incoming brace yourself: Point 1: Worst spell list in the game By what metric? Worse then the wizard? Certainly, which would be pertinent, except the wizard has the best spell list in the game so litterally every other full caster is worse by default. Worse then bard? Maybe if we include magic secrets which come online at 10th level, a point where most campaigns have already concluded. The sorcerer, in fact has the second best spell list in the game. Second ONLY to wizard. The divine casters cannot compare with arcane in terms of spell, and Sorcs even have access to that via Favoured Soul. And I hope the position that warlocks somehow have a better list because of the like, two decent exclusives they have isnt being taken when they lack even basic staples like polymorph and web. Hell Abberant Mind and Clockwork soul even have access to most of the Warlock standouts. So no, to say the sorcerer spell list is bad, is simply incorrect. Worse then wizard, yes. Bad? No. Point 2: Metamagic and Metamagic Adept Metamagic does scale, here are a few examples. Twinned spell doubles the power of the spell being cast. Functionally then a twinned spell used to double a polymorph is much more powerful than a twinned spell used to double a chromatic orb. Conclusivley, this option becomes more powerful as you gain more spells. Hightened spell allows you to impose disadvantage on the saving throw a creature makes. Spells like hypnotic pattern or Banishment are far more debilitating then spells like thunderwave or burning hands. Quickened spell works best when paired with spells that persist and repeat their effects using an actions, such as eyebite most notably. Quickened spell works better with eyebite then it does with witchbolt. Empowerd spell lets you re roll a number of damage dice that turn out poor, higher level blast spells typically have more damage dice, ergo the option scales. I feel my point is sufficiently made. Metamagic absolutley scales, it becomes more powerful as you gain more powerful spells. Almost universally, the metamagic options become better as you gain level and unlock better spells.I challange you to name anything any caster can do in the game at level 7-10 that its more potent then a twinned polymorph on your martials. This also neatly rebukes the notion that metamagic adept is somehow comparable to having the actual metamagic feature. You gain 2 sorcery points, meaning youre limited to one quicken, 1 twin of a second level spell, 2 subtle spells, and 2 empowered spells per day roughly, and cant even access hightened due to its cost. And you only get two actual options to choose from. Metamagic adept, if anything, is best used with sorcerers, not instead of them, as more sorc points and meta options are always valuable. Point 3: Weak subclasses Abberant Mind and Clockwork soul are arguably 2 of the best subclasses in the game, at least in contention for sure. Shadow and Favoured soul are perfectly reasonable, they have fewer spells but access to powerfull features like favoured of the gods and hound of ill omen. Overall thoughts: Your entire postulation that sorcerer is weak is predicated upon the idea that wizard is better. Wizard is better than everything. Why play fighter when you can play bladesinger, why play druid when you can play chronurgy/conjuring etc. Sorcerer doesnt need to be as good or even better then wizard to be usefull. It only needs to be better then the classes which were placed above it. And to say that a barbarian brings more to a group then a sorcerer is something that I just cannot agree with. Tl;dr I think sorcerer was done dirty mainly due to a lack of understanding and being the only full caster to be arbitrarily compared to the best class in the game, then called useless when it comes up short. My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined. On a real note sorry for the long post but I really think that a salient discussion is to be had regarding sorcerers and where they stand post Tasha's. Thanks for coming to my TED talk. EDIT: Just noticed someone else made more or less the same points I made and you found them wanting. Thats fair enough, its just a game after all. I personally feel Sorceres are an A tier class, possibly S tier contender with Abberant Mind and Clockwork soul. Thanks for the vid and keep doing what you do.
I agree with the spell list part but I think he may have meant spells known because sorcerers are a full caster and outside of a few subclass abilities, can only cast spells. Which doesn't pair well with only having a total of 15 spells at level 20. To put that into perspective a caster with prepared spells can have 15 spells prepared at level 10 provided they have a +5 mod. A max level spellcaster with prepared spells has 25 spells known and that is not including any extra spells they obtained through other features they get. They get more spells then the sorcerer without even taking into account that prepared spellcasting gives you access to your ENTIRE spell list provided you take a long rest. However I agree with the metamagic vs metamagic adept and I also think that sorcerers can be one of the most powerful classes in the game but they lack the versatility that a lot of classes have and are only usually good at a few select things.
also saying sorcerer is better then barbarian is like saying a high tech laser cutter is better then a swiss army knife, sure the laser cutter cuts things better but the knife is useful in many different scenarios. Barbarians can tank, deal big damage, and have a load of other combat uses, the sorcerer on the other hand can do insane amounts of damage but has little HP and has very few known spells so they don't have many spells to cast and have to resort to casting the same few each turn.
I am a bit torn between a and b for sorc, but mainly because I think most of the list was elevated a bit to much. Paladin, wizard and cleric are the undoubtable top, so they deserve the top spot. Bards are good and versatile, but imo the spell list leaves things to be desired, bardic inspiration is ignored to often in a party and countercharm is absolute rubbish. The thing that makes me want to say it's still A is that it has expertise and song of rest is neat. In a tier I think druid doesn't belong, but I'd be willing to let the sorc enter. The druid spell list feels to me like it's a bit better then the bards, and turning into a creature is useful for exploration, but so is a familliar. A familliar that anyone can get by magic initiate/ritual casting feat. The barb is the tankiest tank, the fighter is the best melee battlefield controller and the warlock is a supreme damage dealer that is able to adapt to any party. People mention the limited spells, but without spell slots, just with invocations etc. is still at about equal footing to a rogue. At least in my eyes a warlock is a rogue that can cast high level spells and doesn't have the "do I have advantage" problems of sneak attack damage. Besides the sorcerer, and moving the druid to B I agree with the lower half of the tier list.
Lore Bard gets 6th level Magical secrets and at high level play gets Half-Proficiency, cha mod, AND Peerless Skill for Counterspell. Yes Bards are not blasters outside of magical secrets and metamagic is cool, but the bard spell list without magical secrets is built around manipulation, control, support, healing, and then it has Psychic Spells and Magical Secrets. It rewards intelligent and knowledgable play, such as again getting an average +9 to +10 on counterspell without factoring in Charisma at high levels. Ya wanna save your high level spell slots? With 20 Charisma your counterspell bonus goes from an minimum of +9 to a maximum of +20 (+3 +5 +1d12). This is on their own. Yeah; people may not want to risk rolling counterspell, but its highest DC is 19. You can force your opponent to blow high spells slots and save yours for things like Psychic Scream. The Sorcerer does have a good spell list yes, it is a pretty large one too; they are just very specifically blaster casters, and the issue with being mostly a blaster is that with the limited spells of a sorcerer you will likely be leaning into a specific type or two of damage, and will then be rendered useless in quite a few contexts. Strong caster yes, but as a blaster there already are weaknesses. I would put sorcerer at A or B personally just because they don't outright end or break encounters like can be pretty easily done with classes like the Cleric, Bard, or Wizard when played by an intelligent player. They have limits even with a good subclass or two.
@@HIIMROSS777 Ok I dont really know where this notion that barbarian is a good tank originated but unless were talking ancestral guardian, it really is quite strange to me. Barbarians are the tankiest class in terms of raw effective health yes but that does not mean they can "tank". Tanking as we conventionally understand it means protecting your allies by absorbing damage. A good tank then should have some manner of way to absorb damage for his allies, or, at the very least, to punish his enemies for targeting them. The barbarian only really has reckless to give enemies advantage on him and hopefully encourage them to target him, but they have absolutley no way to protect the party from attacks, spells aoes etc (no aura, no fighting style like protection/interception, no manuevres like bait and switch) this is why barbarian is traditionally considered on the weaker end of classes. They are completely one dimensional and lack any utility that isnt damage and hit points. I wont sit here and say a sorcerer can be built to have more health then a barbarian, but they bring way more to a group, so the odds of them contributing more than a barb is way higher. Ergo they should be higher tier imo.
I think what has been done with the Aberrant Mind, and Clockwork Soul Sorcerer really helped the class shine. Not only doubling the spells known, but also giving it access to other classes spells that it wouldn’t have naturally. Sadly this is two subclasses, and while some support has come out to help it, I can accept its placement.
Wizard can't heal, unless they use UA to make potions, or use Wish which they have to wait for level 17 to cast Wish to do so, and depending on how you wish for that, you have a chance to lose Wish.
Which is likely why Bards are so high up, their kit can rival and surpass wizards in some areas and they can also heal and more. Sorcerers if you take Divine Soul can also heal, the one thing that separates them from wizard
@@rickyrojas2500 But Life Transference also has the downside of damaging the caster. It's not really worth considering as a spell if the healing can kill your already low health class.
polymorph at lvl7 and you have your heal^^ also sorcerer is pretty good now with the new subclasses from tashas! has more spells than an average wiz until lvl10 and twin polymorph is just awesome :D
As much as I love Sorcerer I definitely agree on them. Until we get PHB 2 and the rest of the subclasses get updated to be on par with Clockwork and Aberrant Mind. Those two subclasses feel like a whole different class to the rest of Sorcerer.
Love sorcerers for roleplaying, but aside from that I mainly chose it for wild magic (best subclass ever lol). Even then I had to multiclass into bard + warlock to have some fun with my character.
Consider: The sorcerer is the best spell engine in the game. As a caster you effectively get more spells by changing out spells and sorcery points. Spell lists don't matter with Tasha's in the picture as we can choose from 3 spell lists. Not to mention the divine soul that's been here the entire time.
If you change out spells slots and then you don’t get meta magic which makes you effectively the worst caster in the party. Spell lists do matter as the base sorcerer’s still sucks. Not to mention being a “spells known” class really limits the customizability of the class and limits it’s overall utility. It has 3 solid subclasses, this is true, but that’s only three out of several other garbage subclasses. To suggest that it’s no longer a problem is to suggest that those 3 subclasses are the only 3 that matter anyway. To which I then say, if you only have 3 viable subclasses, you’re a garbage class
So the sorcerer has arguably the second best spell list in the game. It has the strongest spellcasting feature (aside from divine intervention which is very unreliable) Metamagic adept is the strongest on sorcerers and very mediocre on every other class. And it gets con saves as the only spellcaster. The only thing that hinders sorcerers is the spells known mechanic. All in all it is less powerful than the wizard, but the wizard is the strongest class in game. The sorcerer (at least for me) is in a tier and is definitely stronger than the barbarian, ranger and artificer
Hey Offbeat I was wondering if you could like, I don’t know, make a time stopping vampire build thats been alive since the 1800’s? We could name it Dione
@@RiptidePen I have seen that build and it is incredible. He’s also made jotaro and josuke, but in the season 1 of the Forever DM series offbeat makes so many Jojo references that I kinda want to see how he would build some characters
"most of you have acces to wish" only sorcerer and wizard get it, and bard can use its bardic magic secrets to get it. druid, cleric and non genie warlock: am I a joke to you? Druid, which he literally was talking about when mentioning wish: stop harassing me.
The Warlock invocations which allow you to cast leveled spells at will are often overlooked which is a shame because at will detect magic, disguise self, and levitate are BONKERS for utility. Warlocks being able to use spells which are designed to be tied to a resource without having to expend any resources other than an invocation slot is crazy.
Clerics are definitely powerful. Had a 4th Ed Campaign that we converted to 5th Ed in the 4th Ed Paragon Tier because the players were getting fed up with how long combat was taking in 4th at that stage and 5th had just come out. One character had an evil undead clone villain of himself and he converted to Cleric class in the Edition shift. The Evil version of him had all of his abilities; and a side thing that was originally going to be challenging but not too challenging to them in 4th resulted in the entire party getting wiped with the Party Cleric getting sent to another Plane, and all the other party members dying except for one who ran away when he realized he couldn't win. There was another spell caster that had charmed children to attack them that the party was trying to save which was causing them some issues, but it was how powerful the Cleric spells were that were the major deciding factor, especially when the Party Cleric got sent to another Plane.
Heavily disagree with sorcerer being so lol. Metamagic and the new subclasses add incredible power to the class and natural access to wish. A teir easily
Make it even worse by taking 2 levels in fighter and being a chronurgy wizard. You can now force them to fail the save and you can cast both spells in the same turn with action surge.
I know Monks aren't the best, but I like them because I find it funny that in a world of monsters and magic there's people running around literally punching things to death
@@witto200 spells scale to the level of play you are at in order to handle the threats you face. A chronurgy wizard at a high enough level can just cause the opponent to fail the save. That’s effectively a far superior heightened spell. Evocation wizards are better versions of careful spell and only get better the more levels you take. Your meta magic isn’t scaling independently like wizard subclasses do, rendering all of your meta magic to simply being inferior versions of wizard subclasses
@@OffbeatOutlaw That may be true, but you can (and will) get multiple metamagic abilities. Wizard has to pick one subclass. Are his options more powerful? Totally. But he don't get to use all of those abilities as one character. I am not necessarily arguing Sorcerer to be superior to Wizard. To be completely honest wizard is superior class to sorcerer. I just feel like you downplayed a sorcerer quite a bit. Is he a God tier class? No. I would personally put him in B tier.
Ok hear me out monk in tashas cauldron has way of astral self is really good early game way of mercy has healing it has all things that other classes can do but it has more options then most classes it’s a customization based class they might suck but they are fun as all hell
I’m currently playing an Eloquence Bard/Hexblade Warlock multiclass. When we’re talking jack of all trades, I’m literally a healing, buff/debuff, and damaging spell caster who can do single-target or control, I’m also partially a martial character and have good out of combat interaction skills with Silver Tongue
I tend to find bard lacking because, while on paper it has everything, when it comes down to it it’s spells are a bit lacking. By my assessment, most of its good spells that aren’t heals are concentration. For non-concentration it’s pretty lacking, while other spellcasters have plenty of other things to do. Sure there’s Magical secrets, but you don’t get those till after quite a while.
Use its psychic spells and control spells and look at Lore Bard. You are looking at the class with half proficiency in all ability checks including initiative and unnamed checks (and counterspell). Best counterspell in the game is high level lore bard but every bard is second place. Their abilities make them the best face of the party; their support kit and control kit bleeds into their inspiration and can do a lot depending on which bard you are. Lore and Eloquence are apex supporters and controllers. If you also believe that they have too many concentration spells just look at all of their psychic damage spells, their psychic damage is not only full damage against all but most constructs, but most of them have some heavy debuffs that do not need concentration. Synaptic Static, Vicious Mockery (a lot of peoplr sleep on the disadvantage this spell gives; this is an attack and a control spell rolled into one and is much better than frostbite); they get a lot of intelligence saves. I say again that Lore Bard get 6th level magical secrets. If Bard appears lacking you have not played with a good bard. Even Phantasmal Force can be used in ways like making opponents see a different opponent as you and automatically believe it is the true one. The only real downside to the Bard is their reliance on player creativity and master of the game. If you are crafty and intelligent you will break the game over your knee; encounters can end easily with an intelligent Bard, and where bards can whip out damage; they deal a lot of damage with heavy debuffs such as Heat Metal and any Psychic Spell (save vicious mockery but handing out disadvantages makes up for it). I can see finding them lacking because their damage is not high to make up for their extremely high damage prevention, best support in the game, and with their two subclasses that can out control all but super Min-Maxed Multiclasses. So in other words; the more you show up to play Munchkin, the less you like Bards, the more you are allowed to play around with spell abilities and use your mind and wits to try and manipulate encounters the more you will dominate the table outside of and even within combat. Like, debuffing attack rolls and ability checks with cutting words can completely reshape the story or break the game on its own if the player is smart with their reactions.
@@shadedergu9921 I like how you ignored my actual criticisms and just spouted a ton of pre-written responses. My point was almost all their good spells are concentration, so you can’t use them together. Spellcasters like to actually, you know, cast spells, after all. And not just 1 per encounter. Maybe you should actually read someone’s comment before responding to it? Also, your response is heavily focused on Lore bards specifically. Not every bard is a lore bard you know. Lore bard is, after all, the munchkin bard. Maybe you are just projecting huh?
Oh wow, I did forget to mention synaptic static and a lot of their other non concentration spells that have uses such as sleep against boss adds and the like. Lore is munchkin bard, eloquence is control bard The others have good abilities ranging from creating anything that isn't a magic item (creation) to AC Buffs. That and I think I also ignored concentration on things like support cause all support spells that aren't control are usually concentration, the bard gets support outside of spells and the big support spell list. That and a lot of their control spells do not require concentration, especially the psychic damage ones like dissonant whispers. But enthrall, charm person, etc do not need it, and a lot of their utility spells do not need it. Again as I said you will likely mostly just find them lacking when it comes to spell damage, cause they have good effect spells that don't need concentration and those also do psychic damage. I did completely forget to mention how I went from lacking outside of concentration to how they get a lot that is not concentration. They just require either creative use or using them to control and hinder opponents. Yes; they lack Raw Damage, but they prevent a lot of it. Lore Bard is also just easy to mention, but basically all but Swords has some amazing uses from reducing saving throws (eloquence) to again summoning walls or cannons with creation (and poisons), etc. So I mentioned that because they do bring a lot more than just spells. But some examples of spells overlooked are Sleep, especially at low levels the average roll of 20 or so will seriously put some targets out for a while, 10 rounds of combat without adds is a big deal, that and it can end boss fights early or deny bosses a turn if you cast it high enough or they are hurt enough; I have ended low level encounters with a single cast of sleep because all of the hobgoblins were just hurt enough after a round of combat for all of them to total less than 31 HP, now they are all easy hostages from a ranged aoe spell, no movement needed. Yeah its uses start to become more specific later on, but that later in is levels with Synaptic static. You can also use dissonant whispers yo trigger attacks of opportunity, including your attacks of opportunity. Which can also be an additional spell with war caster. Vicious Mockery has and will continue to turn crits into misses, in which doing 1d6 less damage is more than made up for by taking 1 to 4d6 less damage or later on much more. The non concentration spells will always work on how you use them, so as strong as they seem to be is usually just how you are considering using them. It really is just base damage. And yes, some of their really cool spells like Phantasmal Force are concentration, but the actual value of that spell can range from little to getting an opponent to kill another because they are forced to believe the Phantasm you they see is real. But slinging sleep, Phantasmal Force, Vicious Mockery, some charms, and the like is definitely a spell slinging bard, and one that can remove targets from combat, deny enemies dealing damage, and more. Only one of those is concentration on that list, and again all it lacks is damage. You could also Heat Metal and dip in VM to give multiple targets disadvantage and still deal some damage. That is responding to the comment (that I did read the first time) fully as I should have; methinks I forgot to respond to their only "good" non heals usually needing concentration; which is not true. Sorry I botched that the first time though; was pretty stupid of me.
@@shadedergu9921 charm person doesn’t end combat. All it does is make it so that the enemy won’t attack you, but will attack your friends instead. As for out of combat, the target will know you manipulated their mind, making them hate you. I don’t give a shit about damage. I rarely even take fireball. When I compare other spells to what the bard gets, I think of stuff like grease on the wizard spell list. Enthrall, do you really even need a spell for that? All it does is give disadvantage on perception checks. Out of combat, you could make a similar effect by just playing your instruments to create a diversion, and in combat it’s so in effective. Sleep, really good at levels 1-4 but falls off quickly. And other classes can easily get access to it so it’s hardly a point in bard’s favor. And synaptic static is pretty high level of a slot to be a go-to
@@ikejohnson5494 i never said charm person itself ends combat, just that there are abilities that can if you use them right. Control spells are not just charm, just non concentration spells that focus on control that aren't charm are again vicious mockery (enemy debuff) dissonant whispers (forced enemy movement), plant growth, sleep. So you are talking specifically about spells like grease. So you would be looking at Bard Spells like Dissonant Whispers for comparison on situations like that. That and if you want specifically spells a Bard gets that wizard doesn't or that other casters don't easily get you would be looking at dissonant whispers, vicious mockery, plant growth, etc. There is a list of them before 5th, it just is not long until higher levels. I guess I can see what you mean by spells lacking, but only really if our comparison class is a caster like a wizard. Cause they do lack grease even if they get other spells like Plant Growth (higher level though). So in the case of just bard exclusive or exclusive from Wizard I would actually agree, but not as much with other full casters or half casters. Thank you for the back and forth and for putting up with my silly rants, I do get what you're saying to an extent too. I would also like to chat more if you can tolerate me.
Fighters start strong...I feel like Paladins take a long time to become a great class. If you are playing a long campaign with slow progress, I'd say Fighters have a lot of advantages over Paladins. Sorcerers can be horribly built even by somewhat experienced players. But Tasha's sorcerers can stay competitive with wizards until higher levels with less effort.
The best use of an artificer is as an NPC played by the DM that lives in the party base. It is the source of some of the items that could otherwise be found in encounters, though not all of them. You can also provide it ingredients to craft poisons, acids, flammables, etc.
Can’t tell you how many time my ass was saved by an artificer’s flash of genius. Also Sorc is on the up and up imo. Abberant mind and clockwork are both amazing. Mind sliver + new spells in Fizban’s + knowing more spells now has really opened up the class.
I disagree with your placement of sorcerer on this chart. Here is my reasoning. 1: Metamagic adept doesn't subtract from the sorcerer, it adds to it. Getting 4 metamagic options and 6 sorcery points at level 4 makes you way better 2: Metamagic scales with the spells you use it on. Twinned spell dominate monster is WAY stronger than twinned spell ray of sickness 3: The Sorcerer has lacklustre subclasses? Tasha's couldron of everything added two subclasses that are exceptionally strong. They completely solve the Sorcerer's lack of spells known and their lacklustre spell list in one go. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other subclasses eventually get the same treatment with additional spell lists (though that's speculation and shouldn't be taken into consideration.
Meta magic adept benefits the other classes far more than the sorcerer. 2. Meta magic scaling with the spells used is a good point, but you also have to consider the fact that the creatures you’ll be fighting also get stronger. Without independent scaling the sorcerer falls off. 3. Those are two subclasses and they don’t “fix” the spell issue. You have basically said it yourself in this last point that there are only 2 playable subclasses. That isn’t a good class, especially when you consider the fact that other classes have more than 2 good subclasses.
I like sorcerer for the single reason that it can subtle counterspell. As a DM i use this to fuck with my wizard buddy because he just does what a wizard does Now you could also do it with metamagic adept but we're germans so we're kinda fucked when it comes to D&D because wotc cant get the ALREADY FINNISHED tashas out.
It's kinda funny, without realizing it, I've been working my way up the tier list from the bottom over the past few years. Having played Artificer, Sorcerer, Monk, and Warlock, and now playing a 1 Rogue/X Ranger. It's been a blast the whole way up. ^^
Would love to see an updated version of this tier list since its over a year old, but with sorcerer being my favorite class, I think you overlooked A LOT. It should be top of A tier or bottom of S tier. First off, I think you compared it too much to the wizard which plays a similar but different role. Nothing compares to the raw spell output & action economy breaking features that sorcerers can do. The reason metamagic doesnt "scale" is cuz its a really strong resource that fundamentally lets you break the rules of spellcasting. Twinned Spell is more than 'pretty good', its a defining feature of metamagic/sorcerer over the wizard. Twin Polymorph, Haste, Greater Invisibility, and many other spells that are literally impossible to pull off even for a wizard with action surge. Some subclasses take this to another level and give absurd value like twin healing word, Hideous laughter, dissonant whispers, HEAL, and my favorite - Guiding Bolt. 8d6 and advantage on 2 different targets at lvl 3 for 1 spell slots and 1 metamagic point... Heres a list of every 'twinnable' spell for sorcerer www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/ltjhy4/updated_sorcerer_twinned_spell_spell_list/ Quicken Spell is the best 'gish' feature in the game for multiclassing. Action to attack and still be able to use a full action spell as a bonus action. Nothing else can do that and other 'gish' subclasses usually restrict you to a cantrip & attack the same turn. Even if you aren't multiclassing, casting Mind Sliver (if they fail) + Quicken *insert save or suck cc spell* isnt terrible either. This is more of a gish/multiclass metamagic, straight sorcerer doesnt get much from it. Subtle Spell has a lot of hidden utility. Mostly the fact that you can't be counterspelled, can still cast spells inside of a 'Silenced' area or while bound & gagged, cast spells in social situations that would get you caught otherwise (suggestion, detect thoughts, major illusion, etc). Who needs warcaster when you can still cast spells while your hands are full using spells that require no material components. (shield, mirror image, misty step, counterspell, greater invis, dimension door, animate objects and many more dont require material components) Extended Spell has some uses... mostly to have spells last through a long rest and into the next day for a bit. Spells like mage armor, suggestion, seeming all have 8 hour duration which increases to 16 hours. It gets better with Divine Soul which lets you extended spell aid, death ward and guardian of faith all to 16 hours. Distant Spell is niche. I have never taken it but I would personally use it to play around counterspell. Lots of spells have a range of 60ft and if an enemy counterspeller is within that range it can be tough, just distant spell so you are beyond 60ft from them. Funnily enough, you can distant spell your counterspell at 120ft and the enemy can't do it back since you arent within 60ft. The other metamagic options are even more niche though Heightened Spell can be good at higher levels when you have better save or suck spells and more sorcerer points. Please reconsider the sorcerer and make an updated list! lol
You don't use Barbarians out of combat though... the lack of proficiencies really mean that you're literally wanting for non-combat options compared to all other classes
I'd like to see them re-work the older Sorcerer subclasses now that Tasha's has improved things with the most recent ones. Giving them an expanded spell list that can be changed to any spell of a certain type was a nice addition. Maybe fixing meta magic to be more effective would also be nice (maybe effects that scale with level). I wonder how you would consider "fixing" it to give it that "wow factor". Also, well... Monks. How would you improve the monk class as a whole to make it more viable as a class, maybe just on it's base abilities? Maybe more things to use ki for? Finally, I have to say... Artificer? It can be a pretty good class. One thing I like about it is that it can slot in very well to any party and be effective. Need a healer? Alchemist. Need a blaster? Artillerist. A tank? Armourer's got you covered. Even Battle Smith steps on the Beastmaster Ranger with it's companion ability. Also, they're proficient with tinkerer's tools and/or thieves tools, meaning they can do a little rogue work if needed.
I had a whole rant in the comments about how monk is actually pretty decent, and he just kinda... Ignored its best qualities. I'm not saying that the monk is the best martial class in the game. That would be really stupid. However, it's far better than what he makes it out to be, and it is right behind ranger at a minimum imo Edit: this is coming from a person who has played like, 3 different monks in different campaigns, all within weeks of each other
This vid was awsome I didn’t know wizards were that op and thank offbeat because you were the one who got me into dnd for that I will be forever thankful
Artificer is my favorite class for literally anybody at the table but me to play. They're great to have around for things like enhancing the equipment of other party members and supplying staple general-use magic items (Bag of Holding) early/if your DM is stingy. Buuuuut that means they're using a whole lot of their class features to give things to everybody else, not leaving much for themselves, and that can feel kinda bad to play. That, or you *do* hoard it all for yourself, don't end up using it as well as others would, and still probably end up having them beg you to use it on them throughout the campaign. Just kind of a pain and doesn't do a *whole* lot on their own.
Fighter I honestly agree with. Although I would place it at god tier personally simply for its pure damage. Even if it doesn’t have that much versatility it’s pure power makes it one of the strongest classes in the game. I’ve seen fighters kill gods with ranged weapons.
I would like to say that a Sorcerer would beat a Wizard 8 out of 10. Btw: It's weird that everybody feels like MoonDruid is the best one by far. Personally, as a Main Druid player, I really don't think he is that strong on most levels. Only on 2~5 and then again on lvl 20 he is better than the others.
It's really understandable though. Moon Druid has, at least in my opinion, by far the best capstone ability in the game by a pretty significant margin. A lot of players opinions are based on the optimum scenario, hence why Assassin Rogues have been beloved since 5th edition released. Realistically, if you want to make a level 20 character, you can't go wrong with turning into a mammoth and sunbeaming everything every round until everything dies
Wizard beats Sorcerer every time, Wizard brings planar bound solars from his demiplane. Abjurer laughs at spells, chronurgist and diviner force auto fails on sorcerer's save or suck saving throws, necromancer shoots with an army of undead plus its nightwalker minion...
@@mrbonlino That's not the power I was thinking of - resistance to spell damage and advantage on saves vs spells is the one that is the winner here in a spell duel. Plus if the sorcerer is using subtle spell, he isn't using other more dangerous metamagics (other than empower which is meh).
Have you ever considered what a good fix to sorcerers could be? They are my favorite class but I have to agree they aren’t that great compared to other casters
Scaling metamagic, more sorcery points, 2-way sorcery point conversion. Currently turning slots to points has poor return, changing this means you can switch to and from when you need to without worrying so much. Having a higher cap like level+prof+cha lets you have more spell slots to an impactful degree, or use metamagic a lot. Scaling metamagic with levels by having them "improve" or with level restricted better options helps you keep up power wise
watch the do it all god mage video from treantmonk and you will see how powerful it really is ;) twinning and heightening can make such a huge impact and with metamagic adept you have 4 metamagics instead of 2 :D
i love martial classes, but fighter (my favorite) always kinda feels like it's missing something. idk I think it's just that monks get the same or more attacks (ignoring action surge) and their fists become magical whereas a fighter could hypothetically go an entire game without getting a magic weapon.
To be fair, monks have to spend a limited resource to get those extra attacks and they don’t have as many ability score increases to spend on feats despite being MAD. Monks may have some cool abilities and eventually get proficiency in saves, but monk characters are far less customizable than your bog standard fighter. On top of all that, fighters just have better subclasses and start off with a massive lead (better armor class, hit points, and damage) and only keep pulling further ahead in later levels. Fighters may not be as epic as wizards, but they’re way better off than most monks...
@@alexandrudorries3307 ya thats why i love fighters i just think that there is something that would put them over the top and make them perfect. I just cant figure out what it could be.
I get what you’re saying, though I think fighters peak at around 6th to 11th level and can become even more powerful via multiclassing. I genuinely believe that they may be one of the best options for multiclassing into or for multiclassing with other dips. A straight 1 to 20 fighter will do well especially with the right subclass, but multiclassing is worth considering.
A bunch of monk's benefits weirdly don't come into play very much in a typical campaign which really dampens its effectiveness. I've played two monks. On the one spectrum was a shadow monk in a campaign with a new GM who handed out magic items like candy but only ever hooked me up with a useless +STR item, randomly decided stunning strike shouldn't work after I already spent the ki, and chucked long rests at us whenever the spellcasters blew through their spells prematurely. On the other end of the spectrum is an open palm monk in a dark sun based setting where magic items are ridiculously rare, armor is hot and uncomfortable, equipment is shoddy and liable to break, being thrown into a gladiator pit unarmed is expected to happen with regularity, openly spellcasting can get you lynched, and being able to eventually just chill in the desert without food and water forever is insanely helpful- short of breaking his arms and legs, the monk can just keep going in a setting like that. The former is the worst character I've ever played and the latter is easily the best. Unfortunately monk almost seems to be balanced to thrive in times of scarcity, but how often does that ever come up in a typical campaign? A gm might deliberately throw the monk a bone every once in a while, but most campaigns aren't going to showcase that strength because in order to do that you have to intentionally ensure that the rest of the party cannot fulfill their roles and that's not especially fun for everyone else.
My only thing to bring to the table is that Blade Warlock gets access to eldritch smite, which is arguably better than the paladin's because its force damage and is automatically 5th level. That being said I don't nessisarily know if I think its better than A tier. I just think on certain builds it becomes a better paladin than actual paladins
As a Druid main, I can definitely take A-tier. I definitely feel it can be God-tier, but only if you can play it right. Some of the best circles (Spores, Stars and Shepard) are often very complex and need a lot of knowledge and skill/spell/stat management to be fully realized. Circle of the Moon and Wildfire are also really great circles, and are more beginner friendly, but I think the other three circles can be big game changers. For example, I am playing a Tortle Druid from the Simic guild in my current campaign. He is from the Corcle of the Shepard, so at level 9, he could summon 8 wolves with +4 hp, all attacks were magical and being Simic with high reputation, the wolves had 2 adaptations to every summon, like acid skin and advanced perception. All that with just one 3rd lvl spell. Not to mention the healing support he can do with the unicorn totem. And personally, being a Tortle, his AC was natural 19, so he could tank a lot of damage. It’s all about management with Druid and being able to think outside the box.
I'm fairly new to DnD. For my first ever low level module I decided to play *the Monk*. Because martial arts cool. Obviously. Well, at level 5 the hit points of this monk turned out to be a single point higher than hit points of another player's sorcerer. This was meant to be a melee character but it ended up with HP of a full caster. Depending on the monster, this character could be two or three shot quite easily, which sometimes meant falling unconscious after a single turn. Because of this, the moment I got Dedicated Weapon, my monk picked up a light crossbow and used that as the main weapon. So. That meant bonus action attacks, flurry of blows, step of the wind and extra mobility from unarmored movement + tabaxi combo all became pretty much obsolete. This character was bringing nothing to the table, so to rectify that I went Way of Mercy. I was preserving Ki Points a lot anyway because of the crossbow, so might as well keep them for emergency healing for other party members. The character had its moments but I can't help but notice that what I played was essentially a very shitty Ranger. Suffice it to say, by the time we all hit level 5 and went into part two of the campaign I've had enough and made a Bear Totem Barbarian.
I think that Tasha's fixed the sorcerer for those two subclasses but they haven't gone back and fixed the class as a whole. At the least you need additional spells for each of the other subclasses. Your point on metamagic not scaling is really interesting I hadn't really thought of it that way before. But I think their main problem is they look too much like a wizard. If wizards weren't in the game though how would you rank sorcerers? I think they'd be in A tier.
So...... why does one class have to be better than the others? I watched a video explaining why people don't like rangers and in it I found a VERY good point Sometimes your not going to be the best at what you want to do hell MOST of the time you will not be the best at what you want to do but you CAN support others and help get the job done much more easily For example a rouge might benefit from having a ranger to watch their back (while having high enough stealth as to not be a burden to the rouge). A palidin might benefit from having a monk around because while the palidin can do a lot, you can only do so much in one turn. (For example if the palidin needs to heal a party member the monk should be agile enough to take over tanking while the palidin heals) Dungeons and dragons isn't about who is the best or playing favorites with the classes. Its about a group of misfits who are thrown together by fate and have to rely on and support each other to save the world, find a lost artifact, retake a stolen kingdom, etc. Don't make fun of someone just because they decided to play a certain class
Running a Warforged Armorer 4/Wizard 1 multiclass right now. been sitting at 20 AC since level 2, about to get full plate to bring that to 22, and I just picked up shield so I can get 27 AC on a reaction at level 5. Also just picked up gift of Alacrity and gonna take Chronurgy next level, so I will always go first in Initiative to drop a control or buff spell. You are still going to get the item drops but you might not need them as much so you can spread them around to the rest of the party. Also, you are really good at making items tailored to the party, and tool checks are actually pretty useful with Xanathar's.
hey, do you think that you'd make multi-class videos like the fighter muti class tier list for the other classes? My personal favorite would be to see a Druid Multi-class Tier list, as I am a druid main :D
Power Word Kill is not supposed to be used alone, it has to be paired with polimorph, polimorphing an enemy as a dolphin (so they cannot move on land) and "forcing it" (as a divination/chronurgy wizard) and THEN power word killing them has no price, with peace for the DM.
Twinned spell is good enough to make sorcerer worth it you do have to multiclass to make it really good but twinned spell alone makes it B tier (the list of spells that can be used with twinned spell are spells people don’t think of like healing spells and polymorph)
Plus quickened on any spell that let's you use an action. Sunbeam just got doubled in the same turn for instance. Or you can mind sliver first and then do that saving throw spell. As most DnD players know in the end it is about action economy. Being smart with spell selection and meta magic allows for a stronger action economy then a wizard imho. Also proficiency in constitution saves for concentration. The main lack is the limited spell selection and less usefulness out of combat because no rituals. But hey at least you can talk to npcs hehe.
I think the funny bit about druid is that it gets beat up by every other full caster until level 20, where its ability to not get counterspelled and also counterspell will murder every other fullcaster.
@@vivaciousarcanist3389 that is exactly what I mean. As counterspell requires the caster to see the spell being cast, not using verbal or somatic compenents means your spells are mostly uncounterspellable.
hold up, Sorcerers may just be bad wizards, but I'd argue even a bad wizard is better than any rogue. Maybe I just find the rogue a fundamentally boring class to play. You do the same thing levels 1-20 just with bigger numbers. Mostly I just see it as a useful multi-class for expertise and cunning action, much like sorcerer. But if we take out multi-classing, I'd rather play a lackluster spell caster over a brain dead sneak attack bot every day of the week.
Bruh Monk is 1000x better than rangers, in my opinion, the monk is insanely good at controlling ranged enemies. their mere presence causes any ranged threat to be obsolete, and most subclasses have high mobility on top of the absurd speeds the monk travels at. Stunning strike is an insane ability, at level 5-15 it will reliably take a turn away from enemies, and if it lands just once on a big monster, you’ve essentially won the combat because of the action economy and how stuns take away reactions, actions, and bonus actions. this is on top of their insane survivability with evasion and diamond soul + their ki point dodges and disengages and their dex + wis armorclass. overall monk is strong and quite a bit stronger than ranger.
24:10 to be fair the warlock only gets 4, 5th level spell but the mystic arcanum that ands 4 more spells so a total of 8 but only gets 4 back on the short rest
Yes but as he said the average adventuring day should have two short rests, which gives a level 20 warlock 12 spell slots to use in a day, plus its 4 mystic arcanum, AND at level 20 if you don’t multi class you you can get all of your spell slots back after 1 minute, so 16 spell slots in one day, and unfortunately it doesn’t replenish your mystic arcanum so 20 total spells in one day, 80% of them at 5th level
It's not really 'versatile' if it's subpar at everything it does except mobility. And mobility is only good if have something else strong to pair with that.
There is no reason to choose sorcerer over the other available spell casters. Making them bad by the fact that choosing them makes you actively worse and less useful than most of the other options.
The Metamagic adept feat only gives you 2 Metamagic points, so you cannot do much above level 2 spells. It's better to give it to a sorcerer for extra options on top of their existing pool, freeing up 2 of their standard points for spell trading during short rests. Sorcerer doesn't scale at high levels. Fully agreed. But the second you get Polymorph at low to mid levels, twinning it is OP. Two giant apes. Adding 314 hit points to the teams pool. Can be cast at a distance on any two low health allies. Short and long range attacks with +9 to hit. The long range attack does more average damage on a single target than fireball and you can do it every turn. If they die and turn back, you can do it once more if you trade spell slots and Metamagic points during your subsequent turns. Give another class that can add 628 hit points to a party mid combat for 2 actions at level 7. Twinning only gets weaker above level 12 which most campaigns don't get to. Other OP spells at low to mid level to twin, Haste, greater invisibility. Great on success or suck spells on two strong opponents. Double the chance of it working. That's better than advantage with a spell because if you're lucky, you may get both. Gain flight at higher levels.
I had some fun and multi-classed some divine soul sorcerer into my paladin. Added shield and absorb elements. Also obtained a cloak of displacement. Good luck DM. lol
I’m about to play a storm sorcerer with two starting levels in unarmed fighter, not for optimization but because eldritch knight doesn’t have the flavoring I want and punching shit and having access to action surge with spells sounds fun
The Sorcerer argument is a little unfair, I feel. A Sorc is going to be your party's Wizard equivalent so it's natural to compare them to Wizards, but Wizards are one of the strongest and most versatile classes out there, so of course Sorc isn't going to come off favourably. Compare them to other classes though - they're a Charisma full-caster, with a better spell list than the Bard. If they spec into support, you double the value of spells which are already crazy value. Twinspell Haste and let your martials commit war crimes. Twinspell Polymorph and now you have two Giant Apes flinging shit. Invisibility, Fly, Banishment, Charm effects. Sure, if you're a wizard with Metamagic Adept, you can twin one of those spells per day. Sorc can do it way more. Or maybe you'd prefer to talk about Quickened Spells. Hey Wizard. What do you do when a big scary melee monster walks up to you? You don't want to take that opportunity attack, but you definitely don't want to stay here. What are your options? Misty Step bonus action and then cast a cantrip? Sure. Disengage or dodge, then run off? Totally. You know what a Sorcerer can do? Disengage and then bonus action fireball the little asshole. Action Economy who? Also you can eat your Sorc points for spell slots. I know the reduced spells known sucks, and you're not going to have the same versatility as a Wizard with a throbbing veiny spellbook, but what you do well, you do way better than that wizard, to the point where one of the best feats a wizard can take is to copy some of your features.
The thing about monks is the 3rd eye is a wormhole that is made with chi and 4 of them entrance of Wormhole is exit of Wormhole happening twice in two different directions at the same point multiplys stuff like bonus actions infinately with exess move blowoff like inverted poison healing rates, accuracy stat boost , like a copy rare candy level effect &revivers
I agree...... Until you got to wizard. I don't think it's better than a bard. What can a wizard do better than a bard? Bards can cast Wish also. Bards are better out of combat. Bards typically have more health and AC than a wizard in combat. Bards can cast spells or go toe to toe. Bards are just the best in the game.
Lore Bards using peerless skill and jack of all trades for initiative and counterspell can also gimp wizard, even divination. Maybe it is just all of the wizard exclusive items? Or maybe just their school subclasses. No idea though, but I can agree that both can easily shatter everything the game has effortlessly
Despite monk sucking,tbh probably there strongest subclass is mercy Mostly because mercy's hand of healing be able to be used in place of an atk without spending ki is underrated because its consistant. A cleric sure will outheal,but they cost spell slots. Meanwhile mercy monk doesn't need much ki for it. On top of that at higher lvls mercy monks hand of mercy and harm gets pretty damm solid. Now. Want to take it up a notch? Mercy monk/fey wanderer. Heres why fey wanderer. Fey wanderer gives you an extra d4 of damage on an atk,giving you your wisdom to some charisma rolls And with ranger spells,you can do a lot of shenanigans. Zephyr strike turns your monk from a basic speedy idiot who cant do shit to someone who can actually do a decent amount and move an absurd amount as long as there hitting. With the right build here,you could do a solid amount of damage while speeding around. And if you run out of ki ranger spells are a thing aside zephyr strike and the like
Paladins and Clerics can literally and figuratively put the fear of God into a DM
But the DM is God, so.... they're afraid of themselves?
@@Keyce0013 Sounds right to me. I am a scary person sometimes
Ok hear me out, paladin clerics
And rouges
Wizard: Ohhh i wonder what this spell does *accidentally cracks reality in half using wish*
A party with a cleric and a paladin is a party playing on Easy Mode.
sounds like a boring party
A party with a paladin is a party on easy mode
consider, a fighter-barbarian, a barbarian-rogue, barbarian-paladin, a cleric and a wizard
The A-men...
My current DND party is a Cleric, a Paladin, a Druid/Paladin, a Artificer, and a Rogue.
I think the Artificer is really cool. It’s got support, it’s got combat. It’s honestly a really neat generalist class. You can do pretty much anything with it, gaining more specialization with subclasses. It’s definitely not the best nor the worst, but it can cover so much ground. You can have a whole team of them and they can all be different. Bard, arguably, does that better. What hurts the artificer the most is the fact that it’s a half caster. Bard covers several of the support and damage options that Artificer has, but is also a full caster. But that doesn’t change how useful an artificer can be. Not to mention the fact that almost all artificers have a way to attack with Intelligence resource-free. So you can really mainline that.
I made iron man so im happy with it
@@butterham7 Amen to that. I love playing a heavily armored character that still can do a lot of utility. To me, what makes the artificer shine is the ability to craft items- not just with the infusions and the like, but actual crafting. For once it feels like the tools you pick have a use. I love playing the type of character who makes gear for the team and gets it enchanted with rad abilities.
I personally love artificer. Playing one almost feels like cheating the system if you optimize it right. And magic item savant really makes them shine
What i think hurts the artificer most is the fact that they crammed it into an edition too simplified for it to properly spread its wings
@@jackcook9005 You are definitely not wrong. I’ve been trying to learn the artificer in 3.5 where things are far weirder and more chaotic. Admittingly that’s how 3.5 works. Lots of numbers.
Offbeat: calls artificer a support class.
My friends atificer: casually tanks a meteor swarm and 5 attacks from a tiamat avater level boss that was meant to kill us for plot reasons at level 14.
Also, Artificer is the best tank, even better than barbarian. they have both insane ac, bonkers saves, and only one real needed stat so you can max constitution with almost no downsides.
artificer really depends on how its built, but it does bring a good amount of utility to the group even when it's a tank
@@kiwi8105 its arguably harder to kill than the barbarian, but its laughable that it could be the best tank. Even the battle smith can only get a taunt effect on one unit. Barb has low AC and gives enemies advantage on attacking it, whilst being enough of an offensive presence that its a threat the enemy jas to deal with, whereas theres very little stopping the enemies from just not hitting you. Artificer is a broken gud class and i love it, but its a bad tank realistically speaking
level 5 artificer with 18 ac here just from infusions. i dealt less damage personally than other people failing to hit me. using cantrips and magic weapons to reck them.
@@RedQuill13 I specifically built one of my artificers to be a tank. It got an ac of 19 by level 1, and that ac scaled very well, along with him having a custom magic item that just tore through enemies. They can be very good tanks
To give Artificer some credit: A Bag of Holding very early on in an adventure is very nice to have. Not to mention how high AC can get with it. Armorer is also quite useful for the Thunder Gauntlets, making it so a successful attack means enemies have to target a high ac target or roll on disadvantage on your teammates. I'm currently playing a Kobold Armorer. Thunder Gauntlets + Grovel, cower and beg is hilarious sometimes with how dumb it can be. Granted, lets be honest though, every class has their strength and weaknesses, and what matters is how you have fun with any class
Artificer is really good in tier 1, when there's almost no magic items in the party, mellows down to mediocre in tier 2 and then becomes really good in tier 3 again, but in tier 4 it really struggles with not having higher level spells I feel.
The most overlooked part about the entire artificer, as far as I feel, is the 11th level "spell storing item".
Everyone calls it mediocre, creating an item that can cast 10 2nd level spells at most.
But there's a 2nd level spell called 'aid', which appears in the artificer spell list. It's generally a cleric spell, and I have seen higher level clerics use up 5 spell slots before an adventure just to give everyone in the party 40-50hp.
The spell storing item can give the party 10 of these casts without breaking into the normal casting, giving a party of 3 100 hp each, or giving a 6 member party 50hp each.
It doesn't give the artificer high level spells, But combined with the infusions and other artificer abilities it pulls up to being about equal to a 13th level cleric. And since clerics are god tier, that's really saying something. Also, even if your dm is against flying magic items, at 10th level you can make yourself a pair of winged boots and be a flying iron man.
@@Olav_Hansen hell yeah dude!
@@adamjsher04 I still agree with b tier though, you can build them to be A tier if you make one well, but if you're less experienced you are better of with half the classes.
@@Olav_Hansen EXCEPT (PHB p.205, "Combining Magical Effects") this would be a great thing for your GM to read. The effect doesn't stack is the short answer. So if this one interaction is what makes them good in your book and the interaction doesn't even work..... Doesn't that make them crap again?
@@lloydlineske2642 Owh, didn't know that rule yet. Still, with a party of 6 and 2 short rests it's likely you'll use most of the 10 casts nonetheless.
Most ranger subclasses can benefit a lot from Fighter multiclass, but fighter can also benefit from Gloomstalker subclass(unless the game gets to lvl 20).
Aka once in a millennium.
You forgot to mention how Paladins can literally become basically God's for a short time with their capstone
I love my Monk, but you make all valid points. There's a ton of creatures that are immune to stun. You can't do 100+ points of damage in a round without specific subclasses or magic items. And the weapon and armor restrictions mean you get to watch everyone else upgrade their gear doing more damage while you are punching things with your magic unarmed strikes. So yes, monk is arguably the worst class in combat. It is still a lot of fun though. (I could make similar arguments for my artificer.)
100% agree
Monk live and die on homebrew. Will your gm will use a monk buff. Will he allow a hombrewed subclass. Will he creat items for monks(like +2 gloves or something cooler)
Around 2.8~% (lets call it 3%) of existing 5e monsters are immune to stun. Even if you add creatures with high wisdom and proficiency in wisdom saves to drop the probability of a halfway optimized setup dropping below 20% chance to stun its still only up to 8% with the bulk of it being god damn variants of dragons, the high cr celestials, cleric-classed humanoids and the demon lords+archdevils.
Not that the point about lack of a true/dedicated nova subclass and interesting/impactful official magic item options (beyond tats, bracers and the Exandria content gear) isnt true.
I enjoy your tier lists, thank you for making me feel good for choosing a Paladin for my first character lol. I'd love to see videos of subclass tier lists from you in the future.
Sorcerer angry rage comment incoming brace yourself:
Point 1: Worst spell list in the game
By what metric? Worse then the wizard? Certainly, which would be pertinent, except the wizard has the best spell list in the game so litterally every other full caster is worse by default. Worse then bard? Maybe if we include magic secrets which come online at 10th level, a point where most campaigns have already concluded. The sorcerer, in fact has the second best spell list in the game. Second ONLY to wizard. The divine casters cannot compare with arcane in terms of spell, and Sorcs even have access to that via Favoured Soul. And I hope the position that warlocks somehow have a better list because of the like, two decent exclusives they have isnt being taken when they lack even basic staples like polymorph and web. Hell Abberant Mind and Clockwork soul even have access to most of the Warlock standouts. So no, to say the sorcerer spell list is bad, is simply incorrect. Worse then wizard, yes. Bad? No.
Point 2: Metamagic and Metamagic Adept
Metamagic does scale, here are a few examples. Twinned spell doubles the power of the spell being cast. Functionally then a twinned spell used to double a polymorph is much more powerful than a twinned spell used to double a chromatic orb. Conclusivley, this option becomes more powerful as you gain more spells. Hightened spell allows you to impose disadvantage on the saving throw a creature makes. Spells like hypnotic pattern or Banishment are far more debilitating then spells like thunderwave or burning hands. Quickened spell works best when paired with spells that persist and repeat their effects using an actions, such as eyebite most notably. Quickened spell works better with eyebite then it does with witchbolt. Empowerd spell lets you re roll a number of damage dice that turn out poor, higher level blast spells typically have more damage dice, ergo the option scales. I feel my point is sufficiently made. Metamagic absolutley scales, it becomes more powerful as you gain more powerful spells. Almost universally, the metamagic options become better as you gain level and unlock better spells.I challange you to name anything any caster can do in the game at level 7-10 that its more potent then a twinned polymorph on your martials. This also neatly rebukes the notion that metamagic adept is somehow comparable to having the actual metamagic feature. You gain 2 sorcery points, meaning youre limited to one quicken, 1 twin of a second level spell, 2 subtle spells, and 2 empowered spells per day roughly, and cant even access hightened due to its cost. And you only get two actual options to choose from. Metamagic adept, if anything, is best used with sorcerers, not instead of them, as more sorc points and meta options are always valuable.
Point 3: Weak subclasses
Abberant Mind and Clockwork soul are arguably 2 of the best subclasses in the game, at least in contention for sure. Shadow and Favoured soul are perfectly reasonable, they have fewer spells but access to powerfull features like favoured of the gods and hound of ill omen.
Overall thoughts: Your entire postulation that sorcerer is weak is predicated upon the idea that wizard is better. Wizard is better than everything. Why play fighter when you can play bladesinger, why play druid when you can play chronurgy/conjuring etc. Sorcerer doesnt need to be as good or even better then wizard to be usefull. It only needs to be better then the classes which were placed above it. And to say that a barbarian brings more to a group then a sorcerer is something that I just cannot agree with.
Tl;dr I think sorcerer was done dirty mainly due to a lack of understanding and being the only full caster to be arbitrarily compared to the best class in the game, then called useless when it comes up short. My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined. On a real note sorry for the long post but I really think that a salient discussion is to be had regarding sorcerers and where they stand post Tasha's. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
EDIT:
Just noticed someone else made more or less the same points I made and you found them wanting. Thats fair enough, its just a game after all. I personally feel Sorceres are an A tier class, possibly S tier contender with Abberant Mind and Clockwork soul. Thanks for the vid and keep doing what you do.
I agree with the spell list part but I think he may have meant spells known because sorcerers are a full caster and outside of a few subclass abilities, can only cast spells. Which doesn't pair well with only having a total of 15 spells at level 20. To put that into perspective a caster with prepared spells can have 15 spells prepared at level 10 provided they have a +5 mod. A max level spellcaster with prepared spells has 25 spells known and that is not including any extra spells they obtained through other features they get. They get more spells then the sorcerer without even taking into account that prepared spellcasting gives you access to your ENTIRE spell list provided you take a long rest. However I agree with the metamagic vs metamagic adept and I also think that sorcerers can be one of the most powerful classes in the game but they lack the versatility that a lot of classes have and are only usually good at a few select things.
also saying sorcerer is better then barbarian is like saying a high tech laser cutter is better then a swiss army knife, sure the laser cutter cuts things better but the knife is useful in many different scenarios. Barbarians can tank, deal big damage, and have a load of other combat uses, the sorcerer on the other hand can do insane amounts of damage but has little HP and has very few known spells so they don't have many spells to cast and have to resort to casting the same few each turn.
I am a bit torn between a and b for sorc, but mainly because I think most of the list was elevated a bit to much.
Paladin, wizard and cleric are the undoubtable top, so they deserve the top spot. Bards are good and versatile, but imo the spell list leaves things to be desired, bardic inspiration is ignored to often in a party and countercharm is absolute rubbish. The thing that makes me want to say it's still A is that it has expertise and song of rest is neat.
In a tier I think druid doesn't belong, but I'd be willing to let the sorc enter. The druid spell list feels to me like it's a bit better then the bards, and turning into a creature is useful for exploration, but so is a familliar. A familliar that anyone can get by magic initiate/ritual casting feat.
The barb is the tankiest tank, the fighter is the best melee battlefield controller and the warlock is a supreme damage dealer that is able to adapt to any party. People mention the limited spells, but without spell slots, just with invocations etc. is still at about equal footing to a rogue. At least in my eyes a warlock is a rogue that can cast high level spells and doesn't have the "do I have advantage" problems of sneak attack damage.
Besides the sorcerer, and moving the druid to B I agree with the lower half of the tier list.
Lore Bard gets 6th level Magical secrets and at high level play gets Half-Proficiency, cha mod, AND Peerless Skill for Counterspell.
Yes Bards are not blasters outside of magical secrets and metamagic is cool, but the bard spell list without magical secrets is built around manipulation, control, support, healing, and then it has Psychic Spells and Magical Secrets. It rewards intelligent and knowledgable play, such as again getting an average +9 to +10 on counterspell without factoring in Charisma at high levels. Ya wanna save your high level spell slots? With 20 Charisma your counterspell bonus goes from an minimum of +9 to a maximum of +20 (+3 +5 +1d12). This is on their own. Yeah; people may not want to risk rolling counterspell, but its highest DC is 19. You can force your opponent to blow high spells slots and save yours for things like Psychic Scream.
The Sorcerer does have a good spell list yes, it is a pretty large one too; they are just very specifically blaster casters, and the issue with being mostly a blaster is that with the limited spells of a sorcerer you will likely be leaning into a specific type or two of damage, and will then be rendered useless in quite a few contexts. Strong caster yes, but as a blaster there already are weaknesses.
I would put sorcerer at A or B personally just because they don't outright end or break encounters like can be pretty easily done with classes like the Cleric, Bard, or Wizard when played by an intelligent player. They have limits even with a good subclass or two.
@@HIIMROSS777 Ok I dont really know where this notion that barbarian is a good tank originated but unless were talking ancestral guardian, it really is quite strange to me. Barbarians are the tankiest class in terms of raw effective health yes but that does not mean they can "tank". Tanking as we conventionally understand it means protecting your allies by absorbing damage. A good tank then should have some manner of way to absorb damage for his allies, or, at the very least, to punish his enemies for targeting them. The barbarian only really has reckless to give enemies advantage on him and hopefully encourage them to target him, but they have absolutley no way to protect the party from attacks, spells aoes etc (no aura, no fighting style like protection/interception, no manuevres like bait and switch) this is why barbarian is traditionally considered on the weaker end of classes. They are completely one dimensional and lack any utility that isnt damage and hit points. I wont sit here and say a sorcerer can be built to have more health then a barbarian, but they bring way more to a group, so the odds of them contributing more than a barb is way higher. Ergo they should be higher tier imo.
I think what has been done with the Aberrant Mind, and Clockwork Soul Sorcerer really helped the class shine. Not only doubling the spells known, but also giving it access to other classes spells that it wouldn’t have naturally. Sadly this is two subclasses, and while some support has come out to help it, I can accept its placement.
Good old easy Tier List. Should be fun for Outlaw's opinions to be referenced in comments from now on.
Wizard can't heal, unless they use UA to make potions, or use Wish which they have to wait for level 17 to cast Wish to do so, and depending on how you wish for that, you have a chance to lose Wish.
Which is likely why Bards are so high up, their kit can rival and surpass wizards in some areas and they can also heal and more.
Sorcerers if you take Divine Soul can also heal, the one thing that separates them from wizard
They get Life Transference, so they can heal others but not themselves
@@rickyrojas2500 yeah, but it still is healing (that and with so little health I don't think they'd ever need to heal themselves)
@@rickyrojas2500 But Life Transference also has the downside of damaging the caster. It's not really worth considering as a spell if the healing can kill your already low health class.
polymorph at lvl7 and you have your heal^^
also sorcerer is pretty good now with the new subclasses from tashas! has more spells than an average wiz until lvl10 and twin polymorph is just awesome :D
As much as I love Sorcerer I definitely agree on them. Until we get PHB 2 and the rest of the subclasses get updated to be on par with Clockwork and Aberrant Mind. Those two subclasses feel like a whole different class to the rest of Sorcerer.
Love sorcerers for roleplaying, but aside from that I mainly chose it for wild magic (best subclass ever lol). Even then I had to multiclass into bard + warlock to have some fun with my character.
Consider: The sorcerer is the best spell engine in the game. As a caster you effectively get more spells by changing out spells and sorcery points. Spell lists don't matter with Tasha's in the picture as we can choose from 3 spell lists. Not to mention the divine soul that's been here the entire time.
If you change out spells slots and then you don’t get meta magic which makes you effectively the worst caster in the party. Spell lists do matter as the base sorcerer’s still sucks. Not to mention being a “spells known” class really limits the customizability of the class and limits it’s overall utility. It has 3 solid subclasses, this is true, but that’s only three out of several other garbage subclasses. To suggest that it’s no longer a problem is to suggest that those 3 subclasses are the only 3 that matter anyway. To which I then say, if you only have 3 viable subclasses, you’re a garbage class
@@OffbeatOutlaw talking a lot of shit for someone within Subtle Spell Suggestion distance
@@RK9th just play a bard and roll in the 20s on every persuasion roll lmaoo.
@@RK9thlol
So the sorcerer has arguably the second best spell list in the game.
It has the strongest spellcasting feature (aside from divine intervention which is very unreliable)
Metamagic adept is the strongest on sorcerers and very mediocre on every other class.
And it gets con saves as the only spellcaster.
The only thing that hinders sorcerers is the spells known mechanic.
All in all it is less powerful than the wizard, but the wizard is the strongest class in game.
The sorcerer (at least for me) is in a tier and is definitely stronger than the barbarian, ranger and artificer
Hey Offbeat I was wondering if you could like, I don’t know, make a time stopping vampire build thats been alive since the 1800’s? We could name it Dione
@@RiptidePen I have seen that build and it is incredible. He’s also made jotaro and josuke, but in the season 1 of the Forever DM series offbeat makes so many Jojo references that I kinda want to see how he would build some characters
"most of you have acces to wish"
only sorcerer and wizard get it, and bard can use its bardic magic secrets to get it.
druid, cleric and non genie warlock: am I a joke to you?
Druid, which he literally was talking about when mentioning wish: stop harassing me.
Arcane cleric get wish
So so far including the astral cleric, every class except the druid gets it. Really selective there.
I really enjoyed this video! Another great one ftw!
Thanks homie!!
how is this comment one day ago this video came out 8 hours ago
Yesss offbeat outlaw, you rock my man!!
The Warlock invocations which allow you to cast leveled spells at will are often overlooked which is a shame because at will detect magic, disguise self, and levitate are BONKERS for utility. Warlocks being able to use spells which are designed to be tied to a resource without having to expend any resources other than an invocation slot is crazy.
Clerics are definitely powerful. Had a 4th Ed Campaign that we converted to 5th Ed in the 4th Ed Paragon Tier because the players were getting fed up with how long combat was taking in 4th at that stage and 5th had just come out. One character had an evil undead clone villain of himself and he converted to Cleric class in the Edition shift. The Evil version of him had all of his abilities; and a side thing that was originally going to be challenging but not too challenging to them in 4th resulted in the entire party getting wiped with the Party Cleric getting sent to another Plane, and all the other party members dying except for one who ran away when he realized he couldn't win.
There was another spell caster that had charmed children to attack them that the party was trying to save which was causing them some issues, but it was how powerful the Cleric spells were that were the major deciding factor, especially when the Party Cleric got sent to another Plane.
Heavily disagree with sorcerer being so lol. Metamagic and the new subclasses add incredible power to the class and natural access to wish. A teir easily
Sorc should now be A tier on this list, and with right combos easily S tier, like the clockwork sorc god wizard from treantmonk youtuber.
Found out recently this combo Polymorph + power word kill= instant death( it kills not dealing damage)
Make it even worse by taking 2 levels in fighter and being a chronurgy wizard. You can now force them to fail the save and you can cast both spells in the same turn with action surge.
finally, a murder-pacifist build
It is one of the spells that can kill a shaped druid without them shaping back
I know Monks aren't the best, but I like them because I find it funny that in a world of monsters and magic there's people running around literally punching things to death
"Metamegic doesn't scale" me laughing in Wish spell as bonus action...
The spell is what’s scaling there. Quickened spell is still quickened spell.
@@OffbeatOutlaw Yes but utility as quickened or distant is scaling with the spells you are casting.
@@witto200 spells scale to the level of play you are at in order to handle the threats you face. A chronurgy wizard at a high enough level can just cause the opponent to fail the save. That’s effectively a far superior heightened spell. Evocation wizards are better versions of careful spell and only get better the more levels you take. Your meta magic isn’t scaling independently like wizard subclasses do, rendering all of your meta magic to simply being inferior versions of wizard subclasses
@@OffbeatOutlaw That may be true, but you can (and will) get multiple metamagic abilities. Wizard has to pick one subclass. Are his options more powerful? Totally. But he don't get to use all of those abilities as one character. I am not necessarily arguing Sorcerer to be superior to Wizard. To be completely honest wizard is superior class to sorcerer. I just feel like you downplayed a sorcerer quite a bit. Is he a God tier class? No. I would personally put him in B tier.
@@OffbeatOutlaw isnt chronurgy an non official sublaclass. You vant rank a class based on non official stuff
Last night you had 99.9k subscribers. Now you have 100k. Congratulations.
Ok hear me out monk in tashas cauldron has way of astral self is really good early game way of mercy has healing it has all things that other classes can do but it has more options then most classes it’s a customization based class they might suck but they are fun as all hell
I've debated with people before about how much sorcerers suck and man was it nice to see you bring up the biggest reasons I think they need a rework
I’m currently playing an Eloquence Bard/Hexblade Warlock multiclass. When we’re talking jack of all trades, I’m literally a healing, buff/debuff, and damaging spell caster who can do single-target or control, I’m also partially a martial character and have good out of combat interaction skills with Silver Tongue
party will love you if you are barbarian
that is until you run into 1v20 encounter shouting about blood of your ancestors /j
I tend to find bard lacking because, while on paper it has everything, when it comes down to it it’s spells are a bit lacking. By my assessment, most of its good spells that aren’t heals are concentration. For non-concentration it’s pretty lacking, while other spellcasters have plenty of other things to do. Sure there’s Magical secrets, but you don’t get those till after quite a while.
Use its psychic spells and control spells and look at Lore Bard.
You are looking at the class with half proficiency in all ability checks including initiative and unnamed checks (and counterspell). Best counterspell in the game is high level lore bard but every bard is second place.
Their abilities make them the best face of the party; their support kit and control kit bleeds into their inspiration and can do a lot depending on which bard you are. Lore and Eloquence are apex supporters and controllers. If you also believe that they have too many concentration spells just look at all of their psychic damage spells, their psychic damage is not only full damage against all but most constructs, but most of them have some heavy debuffs that do not need concentration. Synaptic Static, Vicious Mockery (a lot of peoplr sleep on the disadvantage this spell gives; this is an attack and a control spell rolled into one and is much better than frostbite); they get a lot of intelligence saves. I say again that Lore Bard get 6th level magical secrets.
If Bard appears lacking you have not played with a good bard. Even Phantasmal Force can be used in ways like making opponents see a different opponent as you and automatically believe it is the true one.
The only real downside to the Bard is their reliance on player creativity and master of the game. If you are crafty and intelligent you will break the game over your knee; encounters can end easily with an intelligent Bard, and where bards can whip out damage; they deal a lot of damage with heavy debuffs such as Heat Metal and any Psychic Spell (save vicious mockery but handing out disadvantages makes up for it).
I can see finding them lacking because their damage is not high to make up for their extremely high damage prevention, best support in the game, and with their two subclasses that can out control all but super Min-Maxed Multiclasses.
So in other words; the more you show up to play Munchkin, the less you like Bards, the more you are allowed to play around with spell abilities and use your mind and wits to try and manipulate encounters the more you will dominate the table outside of and even within combat. Like, debuffing attack rolls and ability checks with cutting words can completely reshape the story or break the game on its own if the player is smart with their reactions.
@@shadedergu9921 I like how you ignored my actual criticisms and just spouted a ton of pre-written responses.
My point was almost all their good spells are concentration, so you can’t use them together. Spellcasters like to actually, you know, cast spells, after all. And not just 1 per encounter.
Maybe you should actually read someone’s comment before responding to it?
Also, your response is heavily focused on Lore bards specifically. Not every bard is a lore bard you know. Lore bard is, after all, the munchkin bard. Maybe you are just projecting huh?
Oh wow, I did forget to mention synaptic static and a lot of their other non concentration spells that have uses such as sleep against boss adds and the like.
Lore is munchkin bard, eloquence is control bard
The others have good abilities ranging from creating anything that isn't a magic item (creation) to AC Buffs.
That and I think I also ignored concentration on things like support cause all support spells that aren't control are usually concentration, the bard gets support outside of spells and the big support spell list.
That and a lot of their control spells do not require concentration, especially the psychic damage ones like dissonant whispers. But enthrall, charm person, etc do not need it, and a lot of their utility spells do not need it. Again as I said you will likely mostly just find them lacking when it comes to spell damage, cause they have good effect spells that don't need concentration and those also do psychic damage.
I did completely forget to mention how I went from lacking outside of concentration to how they get a lot that is not concentration. They just require either creative use or using them to control and hinder opponents. Yes; they lack Raw Damage, but they prevent a lot of it.
Lore Bard is also just easy to mention, but basically all but Swords has some amazing uses from reducing saving throws (eloquence) to again summoning walls or cannons with creation (and poisons), etc. So I mentioned that because they do bring a lot more than just spells. But some examples of spells overlooked are
Sleep, especially at low levels the average roll of 20 or so will seriously put some targets out for a while, 10 rounds of combat without adds is a big deal, that and it can end boss fights early or deny bosses a turn if you cast it high enough or they are hurt enough; I have ended low level encounters with a single cast of sleep because all of the hobgoblins were just hurt enough after a round of combat for all of them to total less than 31 HP, now they are all easy hostages from a ranged aoe spell, no movement needed. Yeah its uses start to become more specific later on, but that later in is levels with Synaptic static. You can also use dissonant whispers yo trigger attacks of opportunity, including your attacks of opportunity. Which can also be an additional spell with war caster. Vicious Mockery has and will continue to turn crits into misses, in which doing 1d6 less damage is more than made up for by taking 1 to 4d6 less damage or later on much more. The non concentration spells will always work on how you use them, so as strong as they seem to be is usually just how you are considering using them.
It really is just base damage.
And yes, some of their really cool spells like Phantasmal Force are concentration, but the actual value of that spell can range from little to getting an opponent to kill another because they are forced to believe the Phantasm you they see is real.
But slinging sleep, Phantasmal Force, Vicious Mockery, some charms, and the like is definitely a spell slinging bard, and one that can remove targets from combat, deny enemies dealing damage, and more. Only one of those is concentration on that list, and again all it lacks is damage. You could also Heat Metal and dip in VM to give multiple targets disadvantage and still deal some damage.
That is responding to the comment (that I did read the first time) fully as I should have; methinks I forgot to respond to their only "good" non heals usually needing concentration; which is not true. Sorry I botched that the first time though; was pretty stupid of me.
@@shadedergu9921 charm person doesn’t end combat. All it does is make it so that the enemy won’t attack you, but will attack your friends instead. As for out of combat, the target will know you manipulated their mind, making them hate you.
I don’t give a shit about damage. I rarely even take fireball. When I compare other spells to what the bard gets, I think of stuff like grease on the wizard spell list.
Enthrall, do you really even need a spell for that? All it does is give disadvantage on perception checks. Out of combat, you could make a similar effect by just playing your instruments to create a diversion, and in combat it’s so in effective. Sleep, really good at levels 1-4 but falls off quickly. And other classes can easily get access to it so it’s hardly a point in bard’s favor.
And synaptic static is pretty high level of a slot to be a go-to
@@ikejohnson5494 i never said charm person itself ends combat, just that there are abilities that can if you use them right. Control spells are not just charm, just non concentration spells that focus on control that aren't charm are again vicious mockery (enemy debuff) dissonant whispers (forced enemy movement), plant growth, sleep.
So you are talking specifically about spells like grease. So you would be looking at Bard Spells like Dissonant Whispers for comparison on situations like that.
That and if you want specifically spells a Bard gets that wizard doesn't or that other casters don't easily get you would be looking at dissonant whispers, vicious mockery, plant growth, etc. There is a list of them before 5th, it just is not long until higher levels.
I guess I can see what you mean by spells lacking, but only really if our comparison class is a caster like a wizard. Cause they do lack grease even if they get other spells like Plant Growth (higher level though). So in the case of just bard exclusive or exclusive from Wizard I would actually agree, but not as much with other full casters or half casters.
Thank you for the back and forth and for putting up with my silly rants, I do get what you're saying to an extent too. I would also like to chat more if you can tolerate me.
Fighters start strong...I feel like Paladins take a long time to become a great class. If you are playing a long campaign with slow progress, I'd say Fighters have a lot of advantages over Paladins.
Sorcerers can be horribly built even by somewhat experienced players. But Tasha's sorcerers can stay competitive with wizards until higher levels with less effort.
The best use of an artificer is as an NPC played by the DM that lives in the party base. It is the source of some of the items that could otherwise be found in encounters, though not all of them. You can also provide it ingredients to craft poisons, acids, flammables, etc.
Can’t tell you how many time my ass was saved by an artificer’s flash of genius. Also Sorc is on the up and up imo. Abberant mind and clockwork are both amazing. Mind sliver + new spells in Fizban’s + knowing more spells now has really opened up the class.
I disagree with your placement of sorcerer on this chart. Here is my reasoning.
1: Metamagic adept doesn't subtract from the sorcerer, it adds to it. Getting 4 metamagic options and 6 sorcery points at level 4 makes you way better
2: Metamagic scales with the spells you use it on. Twinned spell dominate monster is WAY stronger than twinned spell ray of sickness
3: The Sorcerer has lacklustre subclasses? Tasha's couldron of everything added two subclasses that are exceptionally strong. They completely solve the Sorcerer's lack of spells known and their lacklustre spell list in one go. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other subclasses eventually get the same treatment with additional spell lists (though that's speculation and shouldn't be taken into consideration.
Meta magic adept benefits the other classes far more than the sorcerer.
2. Meta magic scaling with the spells used is a good point, but you also have to consider the fact that the creatures you’ll be fighting also get stronger. Without independent scaling the sorcerer falls off.
3. Those are two subclasses and they don’t “fix” the spell issue. You have basically said it yourself in this last point that there are only 2 playable subclasses. That isn’t a good class, especially when you consider the fact that other classes have more than 2 good subclasses.
@@OffbeatOutlaw fair enough
I like sorcerer for the single reason that it can subtle counterspell.
As a DM i use this to fuck with my wizard buddy because he just does what a wizard does
Now you could also do it with metamagic adept but we're germans so we're kinda fucked when it comes to D&D because wotc cant get the ALREADY FINNISHED tashas out.
It's kinda funny, without realizing it, I've been working my way up the tier list from the bottom over the past few years. Having played Artificer, Sorcerer, Monk, and Warlock, and now playing a 1 Rogue/X Ranger. It's been a blast the whole way up. ^^
Would love to see an updated version of this tier list since its over a year old, but with sorcerer being my favorite class, I think you overlooked A LOT. It should be top of A tier or bottom of S tier.
First off, I think you compared it too much to the wizard which plays a similar but different role. Nothing compares to the raw spell output & action economy breaking features that sorcerers can do. The reason metamagic doesnt "scale" is cuz its a really strong resource that fundamentally lets you break the rules of spellcasting.
Twinned Spell is more than 'pretty good', its a defining feature of metamagic/sorcerer over the wizard. Twin Polymorph, Haste, Greater Invisibility, and many other spells that are literally impossible to pull off even for a wizard with action surge. Some subclasses take this to another level and give absurd value like twin healing word, Hideous laughter, dissonant whispers, HEAL, and my favorite - Guiding Bolt. 8d6 and advantage on 2 different targets at lvl 3 for 1 spell slots and 1 metamagic point...
Heres a list of every 'twinnable' spell for sorcerer www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/ltjhy4/updated_sorcerer_twinned_spell_spell_list/
Quicken Spell is the best 'gish' feature in the game for multiclassing. Action to attack and still be able to use a full action spell as a bonus action. Nothing else can do that and other 'gish' subclasses usually restrict you to a cantrip & attack the same turn. Even if you aren't multiclassing, casting Mind Sliver (if they fail) + Quicken *insert save or suck cc spell* isnt terrible either. This is more of a gish/multiclass metamagic, straight sorcerer doesnt get much from it.
Subtle Spell has a lot of hidden utility. Mostly the fact that you can't be counterspelled, can still cast spells inside of a 'Silenced' area or while bound & gagged, cast spells in social situations that would get you caught otherwise (suggestion, detect thoughts, major illusion, etc). Who needs warcaster when you can still cast spells while your hands are full using spells that require no material components. (shield, mirror image, misty step, counterspell, greater invis, dimension door, animate objects and many more dont require material components)
Extended Spell has some uses... mostly to have spells last through a long rest and into the next day for a bit. Spells like mage armor, suggestion, seeming all have 8 hour duration which increases to 16 hours. It gets better with Divine Soul which lets you extended spell aid, death ward and guardian of faith all to 16 hours.
Distant Spell is niche. I have never taken it but I would personally use it to play around counterspell. Lots of spells have a range of 60ft and if an enemy counterspeller is within that range it can be tough, just distant spell so you are beyond 60ft from them. Funnily enough, you can distant spell your counterspell at 120ft and the enemy can't do it back since you arent within 60ft.
The other metamagic options are even more niche though Heightened Spell can be good at higher levels when you have better save or suck spells and more sorcerer points. Please reconsider the sorcerer and make an updated list! lol
You don't use Barbarians out of combat though... the lack of proficiencies really mean that you're literally wanting for non-combat options compared to all other classes
Most Barbarians are not the faces of the party to begin with and you generally play with a party
I'd like to see them re-work the older Sorcerer subclasses now that Tasha's has improved things with the most recent ones. Giving them an expanded spell list that can be changed to any spell of a certain type was a nice addition. Maybe fixing meta magic to be more effective would also be nice (maybe effects that scale with level). I wonder how you would consider "fixing" it to give it that "wow factor".
Also, well... Monks. How would you improve the monk class as a whole to make it more viable as a class, maybe just on it's base abilities? Maybe more things to use ki for?
Finally, I have to say... Artificer? It can be a pretty good class. One thing I like about it is that it can slot in very well to any party and be effective. Need a healer? Alchemist. Need a blaster? Artillerist. A tank? Armourer's got you covered. Even Battle Smith steps on the Beastmaster Ranger with it's companion ability. Also, they're proficient with tinkerer's tools and/or thieves tools, meaning they can do a little rogue work if needed.
Haven’t watched the video yet. I already know the monk is going to get dunked on. Get us more ki points, Wizards!
Use Wish to double Ki points?
Honestly at least buff the monk's abilities a bit so then at least the ki points can do as much as the action surge fighter. Monk main here.
I had a whole rant in the comments about how monk is actually pretty decent, and he just kinda... Ignored its best qualities. I'm not saying that the monk is the best martial class in the game. That would be really stupid. However, it's far better than what he makes it out to be, and it is right behind ranger at a minimum imo
Edit: this is coming from a person who has played like, 3 different monks in different campaigns, all within weeks of each other
This vid was awsome I didn’t know wizards were that op and thank offbeat because you were the one who got me into dnd for that I will be forever thankful
Artificer is my favorite class for literally anybody at the table but me to play. They're great to have around for things like enhancing the equipment of other party members and supplying staple general-use magic items (Bag of Holding) early/if your DM is stingy. Buuuuut that means they're using a whole lot of their class features to give things to everybody else, not leaving much for themselves, and that can feel kinda bad to play. That, or you *do* hoard it all for yourself, don't end up using it as well as others would, and still probably end up having them beg you to use it on them throughout the campaign. Just kind of a pain and doesn't do a *whole* lot on their own.
Fighter I honestly agree with. Although I would place it at god tier personally simply for its pure damage. Even if it doesn’t have that much versatility it’s pure power makes it one of the strongest classes in the game. I’ve seen fighters kill gods with ranged weapons.
To be fair, ranged weapons are pretty OP in 5E.
I would like to say that a Sorcerer would beat a Wizard 8 out of 10.
Btw: It's weird that everybody feels like MoonDruid is the best one by far. Personally, as a Main Druid player, I really don't think he is that strong on most levels. Only on 2~5 and then again on lvl 20 he is better than the others.
It's really understandable though. Moon Druid has, at least in my opinion, by far the best capstone ability in the game by a pretty significant margin. A lot of players opinions are based on the optimum scenario, hence why Assassin Rogues have been beloved since 5th edition released. Realistically, if you want to make a level 20 character, you can't go wrong with turning into a mammoth and sunbeaming everything every round until everything dies
Wizard beats Sorcerer every time, Wizard brings planar bound solars from his demiplane. Abjurer laughs at spells, chronurgist and diviner force auto fails on sorcerer's save or suck saving throws, necromancer shoots with an army of undead plus its nightwalker minion...
@@Miggy19779 Subtle spell laughs at any Abjurer wizards alone..
@@mrbonlino That's not the power I was thinking of - resistance to spell damage and advantage on saves vs spells is the one that is the winner here in a spell duel. Plus if the sorcerer is using subtle spell, he isn't using other more dangerous metamagics (other than empower which is meh).
Congrats on 100k! Keep on going my man
Thanks!
Have you ever considered what a good fix to sorcerers could be?
They are my favorite class but I have to agree they aren’t that great compared to other casters
Scaling metamagic, more sorcery points, 2-way sorcery point conversion.
Currently turning slots to points has poor return, changing this means you can switch to and from when you need to without worrying so much.
Having a higher cap like level+prof+cha lets you have more spell slots to an impactful degree, or use metamagic a lot.
Scaling metamagic with levels by having them "improve" or with level restricted better options helps you keep up power wise
watch the do it all god mage video from treantmonk and you will see how powerful it really is ;)
twinning and heightening can make such a huge impact and with metamagic adept you have 4 metamagics instead of 2 :D
artificer with 6 attunement slots is kinda nutty with the right items
Monks are amazing. I reject your analysis.
I am a sorcerer main. And I am utterly floored.
i love martial classes, but fighter (my favorite) always kinda feels like it's missing something. idk I think it's just that monks get the same or more attacks (ignoring action surge) and their fists become magical whereas a fighter could hypothetically go an entire game without getting a magic weapon.
To be fair, monks have to spend a limited resource to get those extra attacks and they don’t have as many ability score increases to spend on feats despite being MAD. Monks may have some cool abilities and eventually get proficiency in saves, but monk characters are far less customizable than your bog standard fighter. On top of all that, fighters just have better subclasses and start off with a massive lead (better armor class, hit points, and damage) and only keep pulling further ahead in later levels.
Fighters may not be as epic as wizards, but they’re way better off than most monks...
@@alexandrudorries3307 ya thats why i love fighters i just think that there is something that would put them over the top and make them perfect. I just cant figure out what it could be.
I get what you’re saying, though I think fighters peak at around 6th to 11th level and can become even more powerful via multiclassing. I genuinely believe that they may be one of the best options for multiclassing into or for multiclassing with other dips. A straight 1 to 20 fighter will do well especially with the right subclass, but multiclassing is worth considering.
A bunch of monk's benefits weirdly don't come into play very much in a typical campaign which really dampens its effectiveness. I've played two monks. On the one spectrum was a shadow monk in a campaign with a new GM who handed out magic items like candy but only ever hooked me up with a useless +STR item, randomly decided stunning strike shouldn't work after I already spent the ki, and chucked long rests at us whenever the spellcasters blew through their spells prematurely. On the other end of the spectrum is an open palm monk in a dark sun based setting where magic items are ridiculously rare, armor is hot and uncomfortable, equipment is shoddy and liable to break, being thrown into a gladiator pit unarmed is expected to happen with regularity, openly spellcasting can get you lynched, and being able to eventually just chill in the desert without food and water forever is insanely helpful- short of breaking his arms and legs, the monk can just keep going in a setting like that. The former is the worst character I've ever played and the latter is easily the best.
Unfortunately monk almost seems to be balanced to thrive in times of scarcity, but how often does that ever come up in a typical campaign? A gm might deliberately throw the monk a bone every once in a while, but most campaigns aren't going to showcase that strength because in order to do that you have to intentionally ensure that the rest of the party cannot fulfill their roles and that's not especially fun for everyone else.
you wouldnt add your monk moddification cause this full vanilla dnd 5e video right?
My only thing to bring to the table is that Blade Warlock gets access to eldritch smite, which is arguably better than the paladin's because its force damage and is automatically 5th level. That being said I don't nessisarily know if I think its better than A tier. I just think on certain builds it becomes a better paladin than actual paladins
It also can smite at a range, while paladins cannot
As a Druid main, I can definitely take A-tier.
I definitely feel it can be God-tier, but only if you can play it right. Some of the best circles (Spores, Stars and Shepard) are often very complex and need a lot of knowledge and skill/spell/stat management to be fully realized. Circle of the Moon and Wildfire are also really great circles, and are more beginner friendly, but I think the other three circles can be big game changers.
For example, I am playing a Tortle Druid from the Simic guild in my current campaign. He is from the Corcle of the Shepard, so at level 9, he could summon 8 wolves with +4 hp, all attacks were magical and being Simic with high reputation, the wolves had 2 adaptations to every summon, like acid skin and advanced perception.
All that with just one 3rd lvl spell.
Not to mention the healing support he can do with the unicorn totem. And personally, being a Tortle, his AC was natural 19, so he could tank a lot of damage.
It’s all about management with Druid and being able to think outside the box.
I'm fairly new to DnD. For my first ever low level module I decided to play *the Monk*. Because martial arts cool. Obviously.
Well, at level 5 the hit points of this monk turned out to be a single point higher than hit points of another player's sorcerer. This was meant to be a melee character but it ended up with HP of a full caster.
Depending on the monster, this character could be two or three shot quite easily, which sometimes meant falling unconscious after a single turn. Because of this, the moment I got Dedicated Weapon, my monk picked up a light crossbow and used that as the main weapon.
So. That meant bonus action attacks, flurry of blows, step of the wind and extra mobility from unarmored movement + tabaxi combo all became pretty much obsolete. This character was bringing nothing to the table, so to rectify that I went Way of Mercy. I was preserving Ki Points a lot anyway because of the crossbow, so might as well keep them for emergency healing for other party members.
The character had its moments but I can't help but notice that what I played was essentially a very shitty Ranger. Suffice it to say, by the time we all hit level 5 and went into part two of the campaign I've had enough and made a Bear Totem Barbarian.
Weird idea would be ranking the modules/adventures WotC has published.
I like the idea of offbeat just roasting wotc's story crafting abilities
@@ashleybeckers5815 There are some decent adventures/modules out there.
You forgot Warlock’s Eldritch Master, which allows them to regain all their spell slots for 1 minute of prayer
I think that Tasha's fixed the sorcerer for those two subclasses but they haven't gone back and fixed the class as a whole. At the least you need additional spells for each of the other subclasses. Your point on metamagic not scaling is really interesting I hadn't really thought of it that way before. But I think their main problem is they look too much like a wizard. If wizards weren't in the game though how would you rank sorcerers? I think they'd be in A tier.
15:29 as a member of the scout regiment I can say that drakewarden is op
So...... why does one class have to be better than the others?
I watched a video explaining why people don't like rangers and in it I found a VERY good point
Sometimes your not going to be the best at what you want to do hell MOST of the time you will not be the best at what you want to do but you CAN support others and help get the job done much more easily
For example a rouge might benefit from having a ranger to watch their back (while having high enough stealth as to not be a burden to the rouge). A palidin might benefit from having a monk around because while the palidin can do a lot, you can only do so much in one turn. (For example if the palidin needs to heal a party member the monk should be agile enough to take over tanking while the palidin heals)
Dungeons and dragons isn't about who is the best or playing favorites with the classes. Its about a group of misfits who are thrown together by fate and have to rely on and support each other to save the world, find a lost artifact, retake a stolen kingdom, etc. Don't make fun of someone just because they decided to play a certain class
OFFBEAT!!! 100k subs I’m so happy for you man!
Running a Warforged Armorer 4/Wizard 1 multiclass right now. been sitting at 20 AC since level 2, about to get full plate to bring that to 22, and I just picked up shield so I can get 27 AC on a reaction at level 5. Also just picked up gift of Alacrity and gonna take Chronurgy next level, so I will always go first in Initiative to drop a control or buff spell. You are still going to get the item drops but you might not need them as much so you can spread them around to the rest of the party. Also, you are really good at making items tailored to the party, and tool checks are actually pretty useful with Xanathar's.
The mercy monk is really fun, it gives them healing, dmg poison and even the ability to revive without diamonds at late levels
I agree with monk, the only time i find the class interesting is being a lizardfolk, bite everything that moves (flair mostly but still)
hey, do you think that you'd make multi-class videos like the fighter muti class tier list for the other classes? My personal favorite would be to see a Druid Multi-class Tier list, as I am a druid main :D
As a Sorcerer player, I can confirm: it is for flavor and nothing else.
Power Word Kill is not supposed to be used alone, it has to be paired with polimorph, polimorphing an enemy as a dolphin (so they cannot move on land) and "forcing it" (as a divination/chronurgy wizard) and THEN power word killing them has no price, with peace for the DM.
Twinned spell is good enough to make sorcerer worth it you do have to multiclass to make it really good but twinned spell alone makes it B tier (the list of spells that can be used with twinned spell are spells people don’t think of like healing spells and polymorph)
Plus quickened on any spell that let's you use an action. Sunbeam just got doubled in the same turn for instance. Or you can mind sliver first and then do that saving throw spell. As most DnD players know in the end it is about action economy. Being smart with spell selection and meta magic allows for a stronger action economy then a wizard imho. Also proficiency in constitution saves for concentration. The main lack is the limited spell selection and less usefulness out of combat because no rituals. But hey at least you can talk to npcs hehe.
I think the funny bit about druid is that it gets beat up by every other full caster until level 20, where its ability to not get counterspelled and also counterspell will murder every other fullcaster.
what do you mean by not get counterspelled? are you meaning spells not requiring a verbal and somatic component anymore?
@@vivaciousarcanist3389 that is exactly what I mean. As counterspell requires the caster to see the spell being cast, not using verbal or somatic compenents means your spells are mostly uncounterspellable.
@@kiwi8105 thank you for clarifying
Indeed, the bard CAN pull it off
“Monk is the worst class in 5e”
Ranger: Am I a joke to you?
No, no joke, monk really is the worst :)
S tier - Wizard, Cleric, Bard
A tier - Warlock, Sorcerer, Druid
B tier - Ranger, Fighter, Paladin, Artificer
C tier - Barbarian, Rogue
F tier - Monk
hold up, Sorcerers may just be bad wizards, but I'd argue even a bad wizard is better than any rogue. Maybe I just find the rogue a fundamentally boring class to play. You do the same thing levels 1-20 just with bigger numbers. Mostly I just see it as a useful multi-class for expertise and cunning action, much like sorcerer. But if we take out multi-classing, I'd rather play a lackluster spell caster over a brain dead sneak attack bot every day of the week.
Necromancer subclass for wizard. Meat shields.
Give us a Sauron/evil overlord build. I want minions and subjugation
Bruh Monk is 1000x better than rangers, in my opinion, the monk is insanely good at controlling ranged enemies. their mere presence causes any ranged threat to be obsolete, and most subclasses have high mobility on top of the absurd speeds the monk travels at. Stunning strike is an insane ability, at level 5-15 it will reliably take a turn away from enemies, and if it lands just once on a big monster, you’ve essentially won the combat because of the action economy and how stuns take away reactions, actions, and bonus actions. this is on top of their insane survivability with evasion and diamond soul + their ki point dodges and disengages and their dex + wis armorclass. overall monk is strong and quite a bit stronger than ranger.
24:10 to be fair the warlock only gets 4, 5th level spell but the mystic arcanum that ands 4 more spells so a total of 8 but only gets 4 back on the short rest
I do like it’s rank I am just brining up a point
Yes but as he said the average adventuring day should have two short rests, which gives a level 20 warlock 12 spell slots to use in a day, plus its 4 mystic arcanum, AND at level 20 if you don’t multi class you you can get all of your spell slots back after 1 minute, so 16 spell slots in one day, and unfortunately it doesn’t replenish your mystic arcanum so 20 total spells in one day, 80% of them at 5th level
It also gets 8 eldritch invocations and has some broken subclasses, I personally believe it should be high A tier to mid S tier
Paladin: trade off your character's personality depth for great numbers
The Monk makes me sad.
The truth often does
@@OffbeatOutlaw go to wotc and tell them to give more to monks
12:24 actually the Monk is great as a master of versatility which is why people play them
It's not really 'versatile' if it's subpar at everything it does except mobility. And mobility is only good if have something else strong to pair with that.
@@akedus44 they are a character class that can do anything to a okay extent
Monks I believe are very good low level but after that they become more and more useless as spellcasters gain utility spells.
@@bobthelobster7742 it’s the Swiss Army knife of classes
Barbarian is great in the hands of someone who can utilize it. Then there’s my hands 😂😂😂
We stan you all the same
Artificer + druid
Sounds interesting
This list has to be engagement bait. No shot you put the Sorc in C tier LOL
There is no reason to choose sorcerer over the other available spell casters. Making them bad by the fact that choosing them makes you actively worse and less useful than most of the other options.
Tier list subclasses that go with The Bard
the artificer being middle is ok, I can have a cannon, thats enough for me
Hell yeah
All I need is a bunch of peasants
Then I also have a cannon while playing any class
The Metamagic adept feat only gives you 2 Metamagic points, so you cannot do much above level 2 spells. It's better to give it to a sorcerer for extra options on top of their existing pool, freeing up 2 of their standard points for spell trading during short rests.
Sorcerer doesn't scale at high levels. Fully agreed. But the second you get Polymorph at low to mid levels, twinning it is OP.
Two giant apes. Adding 314 hit points to the teams pool. Can be cast at a distance on any two low health allies.
Short and long range attacks with +9 to hit.
The long range attack does more average damage on a single target than fireball and you can do it every turn.
If they die and turn back, you can do it once more if you trade spell slots and Metamagic points during your subsequent turns.
Give another class that can add 628 hit points to a party mid combat for 2 actions at level 7.
Twinning only gets weaker above level 12 which most campaigns don't get to.
Other OP spells at low to mid level to twin, Haste, greater invisibility.
Great on success or suck spells on two strong opponents. Double the chance of it working. That's better than advantage with a spell because if you're lucky, you may get both.
Gain flight at higher levels.
Paladin and a AC build in one party
You can’t damage that player
I had some fun and multi-classed some divine soul sorcerer into my paladin. Added shield and absorb elements. Also obtained a cloak of displacement. Good luck DM. lol
I'm gonna have to agree that monk got shit on in 5e. It used to be a lot better, but the game makers decided they hated us monk mains
Were Monks even that great in the old versions?
Uh.. they were always M A D. (Multiple Ability Dependant)
I’m about to play a storm sorcerer with two starting levels in unarmed fighter, not for optimization but because eldritch knight doesn’t have the flavoring I want and punching shit and having access to action surge with spells sounds fun
The Sorcerer argument is a little unfair, I feel. A Sorc is going to be your party's Wizard equivalent so it's natural to compare them to Wizards, but Wizards are one of the strongest and most versatile classes out there, so of course Sorc isn't going to come off favourably. Compare them to other classes though - they're a Charisma full-caster, with a better spell list than the Bard. If they spec into support, you double the value of spells which are already crazy value. Twinspell Haste and let your martials commit war crimes. Twinspell Polymorph and now you have two Giant Apes flinging shit. Invisibility, Fly, Banishment, Charm effects. Sure, if you're a wizard with Metamagic Adept, you can twin one of those spells per day. Sorc can do it way more. Or maybe you'd prefer to talk about Quickened Spells. Hey Wizard. What do you do when a big scary melee monster walks up to you? You don't want to take that opportunity attack, but you definitely don't want to stay here. What are your options? Misty Step bonus action and then cast a cantrip? Sure. Disengage or dodge, then run off? Totally. You know what a Sorcerer can do? Disengage and then bonus action fireball the little asshole. Action Economy who? Also you can eat your Sorc points for spell slots. I know the reduced spells known sucks, and you're not going to have the same versatility as a Wizard with a throbbing veiny spellbook, but what you do well, you do way better than that wizard, to the point where one of the best feats a wizard can take is to copy some of your features.
"Wizards can do any job in the game"
*Healers snickering on the corner*
By lvl 17 they can get a healer pet for 180 days with planar binding+gate+magic circle+glyph of warding combos.
Arcane Trickster Rogue is one of my favorite Shenanigans classes
The thing about monks is the 3rd eye is a wormhole that is made with chi and 4 of them entrance of Wormhole is exit of Wormhole happening twice in two different directions at the same point multiplys stuff like bonus actions infinately with exess move blowoff like inverted poison healing rates, accuracy stat boost , like a copy rare candy level effect &revivers
I agree...... Until you got to wizard. I don't think it's better than a bard. What can a wizard do better than a bard? Bards can cast Wish also. Bards are better out of combat. Bards typically have more health and AC than a wizard in combat. Bards can cast spells or go toe to toe. Bards are just the best in the game.
Lore Bards using peerless skill and jack of all trades for initiative and counterspell can also gimp wizard, even divination.
Maybe it is just all of the wizard exclusive items? Or maybe just their school subclasses. No idea though, but I can agree that both can easily shatter everything the game has effortlessly
Yooooo, congrats on 100k
Vampires are S tier. I don't care what anybody says
I made a monk subclass that can kill five tyrask
Don't think I didn't notice that Zelda Spirit Tracks Soundtrack.
Despite monk sucking,tbh probably there strongest subclass is mercy
Mostly because mercy's hand of healing be able to be used in place of an atk without spending ki is underrated because its consistant. A cleric sure will outheal,but they cost spell slots. Meanwhile mercy monk doesn't need much ki for it.
On top of that at higher lvls mercy monks hand of mercy and harm gets pretty damm solid.
Now. Want to take it up a notch?
Mercy monk/fey wanderer. Heres why fey wanderer.
Fey wanderer gives you an extra d4 of damage on an atk,giving you your wisdom to some charisma rolls
And with ranger spells,you can do a lot of shenanigans.
Zephyr strike turns your monk from a basic speedy idiot who cant do shit to someone who can actually do a decent amount and move an absurd amount as long as there hitting.
With the right build here,you could do a solid amount of damage while speeding around.
And if you run out of ki ranger spells are a thing aside zephyr strike and the like