What are Your Thoughts on the ABANA Curriculum?
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- Опубликовано: 30 апр 2024
- The art of blacksmithing can provide many opportunities for furthering you education. The ABANA curriculum is one option available And is well worth looking into. But I don't think it should be considered a required course or the final word on blacksmithing skills.
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Blacksmithing and related activities can be hazardous. These videos are not a substitute for competent professional instruction. Your safety is your sole responsibility. Always use appropriate safety equipment including eye and ear protection when working in the shop. Follow manufactures safety guidelines for the use of all equipment. In the event something shown in one of these videos seems unsafe, it is up to you to make the appropriate changes to protect yourself.
I've never had a customer ask me if I was ABANA certified, or an ABA Mastersmith. Happily, they judge the quality of my work, not my certification level. That said, I'm an ABANA member, and think their training is excellent. I just don't need the paper to validate the quality of my work.
100% agree ABANA curriculum is a tool to guide education not I license to judge blacksmith cred. I teach level one and two and I try to stress this with students.
I've met a few ABANA members, including my late HS Metal Shop teacher. He was an early member of ABANA and he would agree with you. It's more of a formalized training, and a guide like you said. I think ABANA itself would agree with you and BBF. It's a great education, and one should go for it if they can, but it shouldn't be a ...
Nevermind. I just reread your comment. You are an ABANA teacher, sooo... 😂😂😂
You nailed it when you said "Gatekeeping"... plenty of super talented folks out there like yourself that don't have the time to get some credential or letters after their name.
Certified is more a thing for people that claim to be professional instructors. So skills are only developed by need and practice.
In a way I agree with you during the training you hone only the skills to get certified. Does it make you a good artisan? Well that is debatable. I did my apprenticeship in the 1980's have done the assessments to get the certificate and got to realize that I know about zero. Had learned more in the 1st 2 years after certification that during the years as an apprentice, to be honest after more that 40 years in the work place I still learn and hone my skills, dabble in other trades as well. So now I'm reading for forced retirement and is looking into new skills to stay active.
I work for a steel fabrication business and the thing we often say is that certifications are for the people you don't know or don't trust. I know a welder that was welding drill pipe agricultural fencing when he was 10, he capped oil rigs for 6 years, and then did a tour in the Navy as a welder in a dry dock in Panama. He now welds everything from residential and commercial buildings, to automotive, diesel and trailers, to architectural, decorative and sculpture, to overhead and underwater, to gas, water and septic, etc. He charges 160 dollars an hour, and gets twice as much work done in half the time as everyone else and nobody cares that his certs expired 10 years ago. He has undoubtedly forgotten more about welding than most of us will ever know/learn.
Education is absolutely useful, but mostly the only thing that matters is how much time you put into the craft.
You answered my questions wonderfully, I appreciate you taking the time to do so. I agree that it is one way of doing things but not the only way by far. I've started down that path of education just to expand what I have learned through trial and error and picking up from books and videos, like yours. It's true it's irrelevant just to have a paper say you have these skills, or use it as a way to gatekeep the craft and that's not anything I was trying to imply so please don't take it that way. But I respect what you have to say on these subjects and just wanted to hear your thoughts on the subject, mnay thanks again!
Excellent video and information. Thank you for putting this out.
I agree on your take for ABANA. There are alot of organizations trying to 'corner' or 'pigeonhole' trades to force workers to follow and adhere to their new "guidelines" above traditional or even existing lawful rules already set in place. Not for the good of the trade unfortunately. Like everything else, it always leads to the $$$ aspect.
I agree. The information and experience is valuable, but I have seen it to be more of hindrance than a benefit to the trade(s) and learning experience. I work in the field of communications, I have seen a similar process/organization start up and end up ruining the real meaning of master technical experience. Those that were experts in the field, but could not pass a paper test, get pushed to the back of the line, as the non-hands-on/book smart/proficient test takers end up taking the helm (with zero field experience) making decision for an industry they have never participated in.
These same organizations require dues and 'training' credits which usually end up being a 'boys club' event overshadowing the real reason they are there.
There was a day when a "Master" in a trade meant something....
John, I used a Chevy Truck rotary to make my firepot. It has around a 4" depth in the pot. I coal from two sources one is Rich Hill Mo. And from BAM. The Rich Hill Coal is pretty bad for clinker, but if all your doing is heating and forging it does well. And it's cheap 4.25 for a 25 lbs box. If I'm forge-welding something I use The Bam Coal.
I got into smithing about seven years ago, had a couple of brake drums off of an 78' chevy pickup. Still using the first one.
Would recommend break rotor that has the interior built emergency break. Little deeper pot but not too deep. Had some and tossed them before I started blacksmithing. Was bummed
Great well thought out thoughts John 😊
Looking at the European cathedral door hinges latches and ornamental iron work from centuries past. They were craftsmen who worked their way through the ranks of their guilds.
True, but these certification programs are decades short of what those craftsman went through. It’s a good start but one still needs to put the work in over many years, whether you got certified or not.
Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge. I am sure it provides solid information for those with varying skill levels.
Some very good information for folks, thank you John. Be well.
I teach what ever I can after learning it. And by that logic, I teach a lot. I love relaying every single bit of info I have
Fully agree, John!
Great questions and great answers, John thank you.
These are some really good questions! Thanks compadre for some answers. I'll get out there and try some of them
Thank you for your answers to these questions, good questions and answers. I whole heartedly agree with about certifications, I am a truck mechanic, service repair technician, and I have worked with several ase certified people, some were very good mechanics, some i wouldn't allow to touch a young kids little tricycle. Certificates simply mean a person is good at taking tests. The real way to judge a person's capabilities is to check out their work. I myself have piles of certificates, I don't put much stock in them, the fact that the place I work at has customers that specifically asks for myself or one of the other techs to work on their truck speaks volumes to me. Bottom line is check a person's work
No idea what the certification process is in the US, but there were recent moves in Australia to restart apprentice training for blacksmiths. Unfortunately all the ancient gatekeepers got involved and the curriculum is full of redundant processes and practices that will ensure anyone who gets through the training will not be able to survive commercially in the current world with only the skills taught.
So glad I subscribed to this channel, always great information. Hard to believe smithing was once a secretive, closely guarded profession.
Always being a student !! always learning and gaining knowledge.. certifications ? at this point in Life and your wisdom and history ? really... I like your thoughts about what works for you,, most PHD's in Blacksmithing couldn't shovel the amount of coal you have burned ....and the metal you have beaten on ... Some people watch other people work, some people talk about work, and then old John just makes stuff happen.... I love that you have FORGED your life on your terms...
I've learnt a lot from you I've been a boilermaker for 35 years all aspects of fabrication and steel work I look forward to your videos cheers
Good job with the credential questioning John. I'll be quiet, but you were good with the answer you gave. I commend you. Thanks for the great answers. Fred.
When i was getting started i down loaded the 16 lessons from the Abana website and did those. The Journeyman qualifications stuff.
Frank Turley always maintain..there are no master blacksmiths we are always learning and there is no finite conclusions to the craft.
Good stuff, thanks for the info
Great video as usual. Couple things, I would like your input on. First, I think a video giving a primer on the types of steel, their uses and properties would be very instructive. I think it is one of those things that once you understand it, it becomes quite obvious, but the hurdle is first understanding it. I generally work with mild steel, but trying to find out what steel is best for tools, how to grade steel, the theory of tempering and annealing, is all a bit of mystery to me.
Secondly, I would appreciate your thoughts on something I came up with. So, a while back there were a number of videos on using TSC anthracite coal as it was cheap, but the problem was that without constant air supply it would go out. Being a 40+ year HVAC tech, but a novice blacksmith, I thought of something. I mixed two parts anthracite to one part bituminous, where the anthracite received enough draft by the bituminous burning to keep the anthracite burning. This seems to work rather well so far in my limited time using it. With anthracite available at $.25/lb or so and bituminous over a $1/lb, it makes coal a bit more economical.
Im in WV and still have access to very cheap/free good coal, interesting how our locations can determine our opinions or uses on forge fuel, I understand those who use gas
I use charcoal because our land is covered in timber but I could probably use coal, we're in coal country too, but some of the trees are invasive so it's doubly useful.
I am planning to pursue ABANA Level I for my own reasons, but I do not think it should ever be mandatory. There are places where certifications are important, like a license to practice medicine or proof of firearms proficiency for security guards, and proof of current knowledge like in cybersecurity, but art is not one of those areas. Unless my blacksmithing is going to be used in bridge engineering, which it won't, I do not need to prove anything to anyone but my customers.
We have guild coal here in South Carolina, good anthracite for 1 dollar per gallon. Last month i got a 55 gallon trashcan full for 55 bucks. ….coking some up right now.
One way to avoid cold shuts is to make the transition on the near side of the anvil, you get a smoother transition.
Great. per usual.
Every time someone asks me about coal I always ask them if they've tried charcoal. Charcoal is by far my preference, it burns hot and clean and its pretty easy to make. Its a light the fires and check in on it a few hours later sort of project. There is an upfront investment (you need some barrels with holes in them and a fair amount of time to process the wood).
There's always people cutting and trimming trees and hedges, selling or giving away free firewood, or stuck with piles of punky rotted woods. City parks and businesses also have a lot of pine, fur, spruce, flowering catalpas, willows, cottonwoods, tulip poplars, ornamental and fruit trees that get trimmed regularly. Its also worth the drive to fruit orchards. They often have piles of branches.
hair dryer on a dimmer switch is a good cheep way of creating a constant heat with coke. easy to wire in, set the hairdryer to cold. i have gone to gas for conveniance.
Certifications are mostly for employers. It helps them whittle down potential applicants. Since most modern blacksmiths are self employed, the customer just wants to know if your work is good. One nice thing about the ABANA program is it shows things that you may need or want to learn. We just don’t have many apprenticeship programs and very few schools teaching blacksmithing.
As someone who works as a digital artist as a day job, that thing about working for people who are several income brackets than you is a tough lesson to learn.
I come from a low income household, and I've struggled in the past to price things appropriately because I get swayed by what I can afford
Meanwhile, the clients are people who know they have their bills comfortably covered every month
Looking for a planing stop but haven’t seen any on etsy. Any going to show up soon>
Thank You John!!
Interesting. I’ve never heard of ABANA
abana.org/
trailer brake drum forges are the best they aren't too deep and are really thick
Yep, that ABANA curriculum is ridiculous and weird, albeit a great episode though.
I really like watching all of your work...
Well done and thanks!
Greg/MaxQ
Hi John, I'm a bladesmith finally restarting my business. I'm going to be purchasing a knife makers forge as most of my projects are smaller and involve no welding. Is there a small/medium sized forge you would recommend? I've been leaning towards the Atlas knife forges.
I haven't used the Atlas forge, but it seems like it should be suitable for the job.
How deep of a brake drum / rotor do you need for the forge? I have a few that I'd be happy to send to you for that project.
No need to spend the money shipping, I should be able to get one from a local brake shop. But, 4" deep is about right.
Hi Blacksmith. I am just coming back to Blacksmithing after 40 years. I kust like the exercise. I watch Craig Trinka making horeshos. Being able to make a french Hind, and do it well not quickly but correctly.
However a certificate is a peice of paper That tells you what you can do? But not what you are capable of doing?. I am 75. I have a degree in electrical engineering, And a Degree in Mechanical engineering. And at my age I am unable to get as job as my paperwork is out of date.
It seems you have to go and get upgrades on your paperwork for being a Spark. A plumber a Joiner whatever... I watch your videos and you know more about blacksmithing than lots of other folk I watch on you tube. bye folks.
Nice Wilton 800 vise
I agree with u.. I could care less about ABANA certification..it's just one way of learning blacksmithing, but, not the only way of learning blacksmithing..however, I think u could be, level 3.. u just learned smithing ur way..I learn smithing on the railroad..some of them old timers were very good..
Is it possible/feasible to do damascus or pattern welded steel using the induction forge?
On a small scale it should be, but the heating area is rather small
How's the finger?
It teaches a good set of basics in a way where what you have done prepares you for more difficult work later on. There's nothing wrong with that.
Its a good program to be sure
Knowledge and Skill and Practiced Ability! Do it until you can make Usable, Functional, Reliable Products and Tools, Then and Only Then expect anyone else to value your work enough to make you an offer for your wares! I personally am a Maker! Builder! Welder! Craftsman! Mechanic! I make the things I can't find to meet my needs!
I'm rather fond of norwegian and probably other european countries' apprenticeships through the public education system. It's 2-4 years long and then you really know your stuff. I understand USA used to have very short apprenticeships a hundred years and more ago?
The japanese go overboard as they do with most things. I suspect the 10 or 12 year apprenticeships are meant to make it worthwhile for the master.
Altho I've been a member of ABANA, since 2014, and I've been to every conference they've actually had.. (they canceled twice) I do not support their fascination with rules and rankings...
I see their efforts killing the spirit of adventure, for me personally, concerning blacksmithing.. it seems to be another effort, common to humanity, THEY make rules, then, they judge everyone's work by the rules they just made.. as you stated, there's always more than one way to do a job in blacksmith work.. don't tie my hands!
I'm sure at some point, I'll find out I've been doing projects I'm not qualified to tackle, according to the elites at ABANA...
GIVE ME LIBERTY, or give me death 😅
I buy coal from my local HomeHardware for $90.00 (Can) for 75 lbs. It's been that price even after the repeated carbon tax hikes. Hope l didn't just jinx it. Hasn't been too big of a factor since l primarily fabricate and only forge the embelishments.
Abana member, I am untrained, waiting for abana 1 class. I printed the course materials, and am just working through it. As I am an old lady, I am finding it hard to move metal. I might have chosen the wrong hobby……. 😪
If you are doing it for just a hobby then why not ditch the lessons and just make small items. Like forks small knives, etc. I bought a blacksmith book and traditionally women who blacksmithed made nails.
Edit to add, there is an awesome forged in fire episode where an older woman wins with her blade. She was a farrier.
@@HadrianGuardiola thank you for the encouragement. I am also a woodturner, and am making and handling small knives, planting tools and bespoke bonsai tools with hybrid blank handles. Big stuff? not so much!
@@picklesnoutpenobscott3165 oh that sounds cool tho!
Someone open an ABANA in upstate New York or NEPA please ;) nearest ABANA for me is 2 hours 15 minutes, and that's a bit of a hike for an 8am start haha.
Niagara Forge group meets in Buffalo, that close enough?
The only prerequisite for blacksmithing, besides safety, is you need a way to heat your metal, and beat your metal.
I agree that its more valuable as how tos than as a gate to into a job/trade. Certifications are all created by people trying to make a buck off someone else's work or trying to exclude lesser experienced craftsman from making money in a trade.
Truck rotors seem to be the best of both worlds
My level is not assessible for anyone.
Per haps by someone who has reached a higher level, but not by people who think they have reached any level.
ABANA? An explanation would be helpful to those who don’t know what it is.
abana.org/
Certifications make good eyewash. Yes, unless you're brain dead; you'll learn while working toward a Certification. I've hired Certified Criminal Investigators, however; I place much more confidence in those who have the practical experience than those who study only those techniques needed to pass a Certification test.
When it comes to the ABANA Curriculum, I'm all for it. I know it sounds like "gatekeeping", but I also don't see a problem with that. It's "quality control" for blacksmiths and for customers. I'm not a member and have never tried their curriculum, but I support the idea and encourage others to think about it because I do think that there's merit to it. In the knife-making realm, they have the certification program from the ABS organization and it hasn't hurt anything. If you don't want to join, that's fine. You just don't get to be a "certified" master, journeyman, etc. If you want to try their tests without getting a cert, that's fine. They don't care one jot. You just don't get to advertise yourself as a Master smith since you have nothing to base that mastery on.
It's no different than refusing to go to college to get a degree in something. You can read all the books and take all the tests. You can have all the knowledge imaginable and be very well-versed in the subject. You just don't get to say that you're a graduate of that school or have a degree in the field. Is that "gatekeeping"? In a way, sure, but it's also proof to others in the field as well as the customers that you know your business. For some subjects, like 16th Century Underwater Basketweaving, having a degree from a university might not be that big of a deal, but for STEM fields and such, I can see how demanding people have formal education could make a difference.
In blacksmithing, there are a lot of ways to do things. However, I have also noticed a general trend towards lower standards. Maybe that's not the right way of framing it, but I really can't pinpoint things as well as I'd like. And I'm not saying that my work is exceptional in any way, nor should I be held up as a beacon of awesomeness in the field.
Having studied the history of the traditional trades, I think it's fair to say that the Guild system worked for a lot of things, and we are better off for it. That didn't stop people from doing work on their homesteads, though, and many a farmer would crank up the forge to fix something or make a quick hinge for their gate. Where the Guilds came in handy was teaching the skills to a professional level and setting a standard of acceptable skill. To this day, we marvel at what those Smiths of Old were able to accomplish because they set those standards and could take pride in their abilities. They had to live up to their bold talk, after all, so a bit of "gatekeep" to make sure that their reputation wasn't tarnished by nincompoops is to be expected.
In the end, I think the smithing community would be better off with a certification body like the American Bladesmith Society. If you don't want to join the club, you can still try their tests and measure your progress against an accepted standard. Nothing wrong with that at all, in my estimation, because it only makes the whole enterprise a bit stronger. There are plenty of people out there making knives and calling themselves knifemakers even though they aren't paying members of the ABS. And customers can freely choose to buy a knife made by an ABS-certified maker, or not. No harm, no foul.
I believe anyone with years of experience selling quality products has a right to describe themselves as a master wether they have paid for a document proving it or not. I refer to myself as an amateur Smith because I don't sell anything even though I have been doing some blacksmithing for 20 years
@@4110mahindra Define "quality". You might think your work is "quality", but what does that mean? People buy it, and they're happy with the look of it, but that doesn't mean it's 'quality', just that the untrained customer likes the look and was happy with the price you charged.
This isn't a question of you "paid for a document", but that you earned your stripes. You took a test and passed. Then you were awarded a certification based on that.
I have years of experience at the forge, and have sold my products all over the world. I'm rather proud of that fact, but I would never embarrass myself by attaching the title of 'master' to my name. I might be good, but I'm nowhere near the likes of Samuel Yellin or a thousand other smiths whose names we've forgotten. To say I'm a master is to put myself at their level, and that's simply not warranted. Some might say that I can call myself a 'master' because I've demonstrated the 'potential', but I think that's a bit of a stretch and would only demean the title.
PS - You have much trouble with your Mahindra? Mine's been nothing but a nightmare, partly due to lousy customer service in these parts. I'm looking to get rid of it, honestly, but first I have to get it running again.
In regards to the ABANA thing I’ll have to have a good listen to this a couple of times, and do some reading up on it. But I’ll report back soon.
I have mixed feelings. It looks like a good challenge, but doesn’t seem quite like what ABANA used to be. God I’m old now…
Sound similar to ham radio your only limited to what licensed you hold! i would support a group or club but i would not belong just because sometimes politics tend to be brought up!
As a certified nothing but practicing mechanic, fabricator and welder I agree that certification is irrelevant. Is, IMHO, just a government money grab.
There's only so much time. I have zero interest in building those ego grills. I really enjoy the varied content you cover on your channel. If you were to start working on the grills, I wouldn't be tuning in. Keep keepin' interesting, John.
ABANA is too spendy for a hobby smith. My product speaks for me.
Some of the most out standing trades men are 95% self trained .