Hi, my name is Paul, I live in Perth, Western Australia and I have just seen some of your videos today for the first time. I think that you are doing excellent experimenting and testing, you also have a great way about you and your humour is right up my alley. As well as being a good archer thanks for your imput and helping any archer who is willing to learn, thankyou.
Thank you for this video not many lefties posting and I enjoy watching you. I live in the UK and shoot barebow but with carbon arrows. My fletched arrows fly fine but the bareshaft always lands to the left indicating a weak arrow. Realised now that the weight of three small plastic fletches (weight 10 grains plus glue) change the spine of the arrow. So I put some electrical tape on the bareshaft so that bareshaft and fletched are balanced at the same point along the arrow. Now my bareshaft can hit at 30M with the fletched arrows. You shoot with 4 or 5 inch feathers that must weigh much more than 10 grains. I would really love you to repeat this test with balanced fletched and bareshaft arrows of the same spine and post the results. It made so much difference to me I think you may be surprised yourself.
Good point. Can make a difference. I use a bit af Scotch tape to tape down the plastic vanes. Not perfect but keeps the weight very similar and saves a lot of work stripping the vanes without damaging the carbon shafts I use.
Either you pre-marked your arrows, or else you have been blessed with awesome vision for reading the tip weights. Fantastic video have learned much, thank you.
The tuning issues you describe mostly only apply to Olympic shooters, trying to hit that 3" circle at 90 meters (now 70 meters). For them, they are trying to reduce their fletchings to as little as possible. Since you are using an entire goose wing for your fletchings, it will make little difference. The medieval arrows had huge fletchings (I believe) is because they needed to stabilize arrows over a variety of distances, and draw lengthe and weights. I typically spind my arrows as bare shafts, and then only use bare shafts to correct my form. I also shoot trad style, and use the biggest feathers that are still point on at 50 yards. Like you said... they cure a lot of sins.
hear is another important thing if you pick a bare shaft and choose the correct arrow then fletch it if you are hunting and your feathers get wet your impact will remain consistent also putting a broadhead up front will change your point of impact if your not matching spines right. this is very critical for hunting and really where this left and right idea came from.
Having experience with “weak” arrows, then arrows that were too stiff for my poundage/draw, I found (personally) that when you’re shooting the correct spine, the arrow doesn’t flop around during flight. What does this mean? Look at how your arrows impact the target from various distances...are the arrow perpendicular to where you launched from? Correct spine always will be.
Hi Jeff, my name is Alejandro and I live in Argentina. This video like the others are very interesting and the aid to me to improve my shoting style and to tune up propely my arrows. Thanks a lot pal I really apreciate its. Congrats great job. See you. Alejo.
Do you think whether or not a bow has a center-shot/near-center-shot shelf matters? I would speculate that correct spine compensating for the archer's paradox matters on bows without any kind of shelf. Great demonstration and experiment, though!
Totally does, English longbow are much more susceptible to arrows of wrong spine going off, as they don't have a cut out, the arrow have to bend more to travel round the bow. I shoot English long how and American flatbow, flatbows with cut out arrow shelves are much more forgiving to wrongly matched spines
Hello Greg, I've been attempting to tune a couple of different spine arrows to a couple of bow set ups. One set up is a Bear Takedown "B" riser with #3 limbs that are 43# @ 28" & the bow is 64". My draw is 30" so this set up is roughly 48#. I'm using Gold Tip Traditional 400 arrows at full length of 31.5" I'm also using Easton Aftermath 340 at full length. The issue is, I have viewed this video multiple times where you state for a right handed shooter if your bare shafts hit to the right their weak and to the left their stiff. I'm a right handed shooter and I shot these arrows with a 125 gr tip and they impacted 18" right, as I increased tip weight they moved toward the center until I shot both arrows with 300gr field tips and both were hitting on center? I'm confused? Can you please explain how this can be?
The cause can many different things. The first is your bow and arrows. Is the bow cut to center? At first glance a 340 spine is waaay to stiff. Personally I run 500 or 600’s from that poundage bow. With that said, plucking can give you a false reading, like what you are seeing. The other, and this is a big one, is the material you are shooting into. For the best readings, new material is preferred. Have a Buddy stance behind you and watch your arrow flight and you release hand and work from there.
@@TradArchery101 I understand what your saying, and agree that these things can affect the outcome. I took your videos to heart and I've changed from hay bales to a 4x4 Bulldog target and I shoot multiple times to try to eliminate those bad shots. I was shooting from 17yds. I knew I would have to really weaken the 340 spine because these are used as my high FOC hunting arrows but I thought the 400's would be good for the length and weight of bow? The 340's give me 300gr up front and 620gr total weight. I also shoot a 500 Victory and I tested it with a 125gr and it also had the same effect, far right hit and as I increased it to 200gr it came back to center. I have the 600 Victory arrows that I'm going to be testing to see what the difference is. I normally use these for my lighter bows. The Bear riser is cut to center. One other thing is I removed the strike plate and replaced it with some tape quit a while ago to move the arrow body further right on the shelf. I use this as another adjustment like a plunger. I'm going to do a lot more testing to make sure I get good shots. I will also get someone to video the flight and my release as suggested. I normally shoot a consistent 4-6" group at 20 yds. I consider myself a experienced shooter but this is definitely playing with my head but I know I'll figure it out with help from people like yourself. Thank You for taking time to help me sort this out.
Liked your skit. First thing I noticed was you’re a lefty like me. I’m honestly a great target shooter with a compound but my trads I have yet to master. I’ve shot quite a few traditional long, recurves. I sold my 3Rivers SS Tomahawk 55#. I don’t hunt anymore. Kept my 37# Centaur by Jim Neeves. Excellent shooter I’m really surprised by the results as I am using 31” 100-125grain 500 spine from the 35-37# Centaur with great results. I’m going to try bare shaft 500-800 micro shafts
My experience is the same. However, I put a lot of work into getting the nock point right, so I get consistent arrow flight, no ups and downs. Then i can work on side to side.
Yes they do if the Bow is not Center Cut or nearly center cut, then the stiffness matters if keeping bow vertical in hand and not tilting bow to accommodate for spine weight (archers paradox) not bending on stiff arrow or for lower poundage bows as stiff arrows can be too heavy for the bow. Too weak can be a problem too with bows if the poundage is too high on the bow as the arrow can shatter on the bow if not made for using a rather high poundage.
hi love archery but that test over that short distance does not prove a thing because of the archers paradox is to great at that distance i would also like to add his jumper sometimes interfered with the string
There is no degree to the Archers Paradox, a bow either has it or it does not. As for distance, the vast majority of Traditional archers shoot 20 yards and under.
@@electoplater yes. but at 100 yards, every mistake and mismatch is amplified. what he's saying is that feathers will hide a poor spine selection. Having the correct spine is still important - especially at the extreme level (like olympic). not to mention that many olympic archers use fletchings such as spin-wings which promote higher degree of spin while being short so that they are not as affected by cross wind. Traditional fletchings are great for correction since they have more surface area, however over a great distance, they will also drift more than something like spin-wings.
A lot of variables affect arrow flight and your video showed one of them. If an archer draws with a deep hook he can shoot a stiffer arrow than one who shoots off the first joint of his fingers. To each his own but I think shooting off the first joint of your fingers gives a cleaner release.I can see arrow problems with or without fletching. I enjoyed your video as I see you enjoy traditional archery and not into the gadgetry so prevalent these days.
This is correct for the most part but I can tell you as a former target shooter and Hunter that when you put that big broad head up front it changes everything the reason I always taught to bare shaft to your arrow to your bow is because most people hunt also and they can put on the Brodhead and get good flight or if you’re shooting in the rain and your feathers are wet you will have a good flight I always believe a well tuned arrow is the best option like for you the 200 grain point shot spot on . Good video
Makes me wonder then, is it the broad head or the arrow? I would have to say the broad head. Bare shaft is big, it is not hard and just gives you better flight, why not do that?
To me it seems from what you showed us , the heavier the tip the more accurate the shot . PS , I loved your reaction to those 500 grain arrows in some other vid you did .
Good Video, question, your learned opinion on Vanes, and the comment I have heard, that for short range, (5 -10 metres for example), larger/longer vanes are better, because they straighten the arrow quicker? but also said, this creates more drag for shooting longer ranges,. When I used to shoot longbows they had a traditional pattern, now I am shooting lighter Eastern style bows, with modern carbon arrows.
I do not have the answers, just some questions and points. The first being (and I think I "might" have a way to test this) is how much difference does that 1" of feather make in correcting an arrow? The next one is, if an arrow can travel 30 plus yard in a second, and you are shooting at 20 yards, that means the feathers have less than one second to "correct" the flight, so how much influence can the feathers have in less than a second? As for drag, I do not know if it produces more, we all assume it does. But how much? Is it enough to change the flight of the arrow that much?
I think with your Scientific and technical background, this could be a good one to cover, as there is so many different vane shapes and sizes, what is the optimum based on arrow weight and bow power etc, how much of a difference do they make. I found your videos on no vanes very interesting
Great video, the intro was funny, well done ! Can this test be redone in the future with different spined arrow shafts and the same point weight. Just as a comparison to this test. I,m interested to see if adding tip weight is similar to a shaft stiffness. Keep up the great work.
Learned a lot, debunked some old wives tales. Some I always doubted! So very very true feathers are your friend and can overcome some other variables. GREAT VIDEO! THANKS MUCH.
Hello Greg. I really enjoy your information. Is Nock Left and Nock Right a different conversation altogether? It gets very confusing with all the different explanations on video. Thanks.
Sorry about that I'm sure you know this, if not give it a try. Take you arrow with say 125gr point. For you shooting left handed it shoots to the right (stiff) raise your brace height until your shooting center. You can also do this if your arrows are weak but fly straight just lower your brace height. Thank you and keep them coming.
Altering the brace height effects the performance of the bow, I'd go with manufacturers recommended brace height and tune your arrows. What youre suggesting is effectively tuning your bow to the arrows, some bows (English longbows) have a very short tolerance for brace height adjustment, bows are much more expensive to replace than arrows, tune arrows to bows, not bows to arrows.
Greg, another good video for discussion and thought, thanks. Every range has its share of Jimmy Joes, and if it's on the Innertube it must be fact, right? I shoot mostly aluminum 500grain\125point arrows with my 45lb barebow recurves and I've come to the opinion that any shooting consistency or lack thereof is mostly up to the operator, and my focus or lack thereof.
That’s funny I’ve recently done a very similar test. I’ve been shooting carbons, but I’m not allowed to use carbons outdoors at our club, so I decided to try some aluminium. I don’t really understand aluminium ratings so I bought one of each to test. I bought a 2016, 1916, 1816, 1716, 1616 and shot at a target pin at 20 yards with a 30lb recurve and a 40lb flatbow. Without exception I was grouping within an inch of each other and more often than not the arrows were touching each other. I couldn’t believe it, I was expecting not only vertical dispersion, but also horizontal dispersion, but they all basically hit the same spot. I haven’t done bareshafting, but with feathers this video 100% matches what I found out in my own testing. I no longer care so much about finding the perfect arrow, I’m currently most accurate using 400 carbons which by every spine chart I’ve ever seen says is WAY too stiff for any of my bows, but when I release my arrow properly the arrow goes in a straight line and hits directly above where I aim with the tip of my arrow and at 30 yards it pretty much a point on shot. The only time I seem to get trouble with arrow spine is if I go really weak, something over 700. Good work Greg.
Try it at longer distances the differences will become more apparent. My experience is spine weight does make a difference, although certain bows (the wider the more the arrow has to bend passed the bow) are more susceptible. Recurves and flatbows with cut outs mean the arrow needs much less bend and so are much more forgiving of wrongly matched spines
Dave When I bareshaft my arrows they don’t go in straight unless the length is cut to allow the best spine. RH shooter too long an arrow will be weak and nock left. Cut too short and it is nock right. The arrows do not go straight but fly sideways when the spine isn’t matching. I have snapped off wood arrows after they hit the target due to this. Point weight of course alters the spine. Do you agree? Some people say to leave arrows long for a smaller gap. I say I would rather have a correctly spined arrow for better flight.
Greg this was a great video. Just one question. Why all your bareshafts hitting straight ? I have to think some of the shaft should definitely be hitting on an angle being too stiff or too weak no?
Not always, that is a myth. A clean release really helps (not that I have one).Feathers also correct a ton. So many variables go into it that there really are few absolute answers.
Hi Greg, I am not sure where the best place to ask you is but there is relay something that I need your opinion about. I am RH gap shooter. I was shooting three under and now I am trying to switch to split finger. I never ever have done a bare shaft or paper tuning but I can say that all my sets bow/arrows are shooting straight - no right or left deviations, except from the usual errors :) I shoot on the exact same way for both three under and split finger! All in my shooting cycle is the same - body position, hands positions, draw, anchor, alignment: eye - string - arrow - hands, release ...all except the place where the arrow is. My issue - not saying problem yet :) is that when I shoot split finger all groups tend to land on the right side! I always blame my form so probably this is the answer...but please, I really want to know what you think. Can the place I hold the string affect the stiffness? I have some feeling that I have seen something related to similar problem for string walking ...but just do not remember... Thanks
It could be several things. Using three under or split can change the tiller enough to have an affect. It really depends on several factors. Your set up could be at the point where that could affect it. Also, your release does change between the two, that could also be a contributor. For me, I just make an adjustment to my aiming. It is just easier than chasing a new set up.
Thanks a million!!! I think you are absolutely right! I will accept it as a fact... Will give myself some time the form to re-adjust to the change...and after that if it is needed I will re-adjust the arrows!
I just bought a bow. New to archery. Id like to know. Whats causing my arrows to tumble and rotate. At like 12 feet. They rotate to the right and sometimes tumbles forward. By rotate im mean arches around.
so if you wanted to shoot a lighter point you would go with a heavier spine? 500 gr spine for your 125 or 100 grain point? also what happens if you add a heavier knock on the back?
Great question and it all depends on how you approach shooting. Do you choose the point first or the spine? I choose a spine arrow, and then work (via tuning) on what point I should use. I have found no difference (shooting at 20 yards) with more (within a reasonable amount) weight on the back.
@@TradArchery101 only reason why i asked about weight on the back, I am looking at getting aluminum knocks. I guess what is a "good" arrow weight for hunting deer with a 40# recurve? I am confused on arrow weight, what type of broadheads to use and what type of spine to match up the broadheads? Thanks again!
@@hambone950 The general, and I mean "General" rule for hunting arrows is 10 Grains of weight per pound. So, you want at least an arrow set up that weighs 400 grains minimum. There is a good deal of debate about much the broadhead should weigh. There are those who love heavy FOC (Front of Center). This is where you have a very heavy point (around 200 grains). Now, I have shot them and for whatever reason, they fly great. If you are going to hunt, just remember that the range if 10 to 18 yards max. You are no shooting long distance and do not need a perfect arrow. What you need is an arrow that hits where you want and a sharp enough broadhead.
With ideally tuned shaft it should be possible to use shorter/narrower fletchings and still get accurate impacts. That is, less corrective guidance needed from fletchings. And shorter/narrower fletchings will yield bit faster arrow flight . . . though how much I know not.
Yes, Getting that properly tuned arrow, will increase speed, distance, energy etc, due to losing less energy in correcting the flight. There is a line, if you are a target archer, then you want that perfect flight. Then again, if you are new and learning, then not so much, same for the recreational archer. They can shoot just as well with one that is "close" as opposed to being "perfect".
Greg, one question, when I shoot Wooden bareshaft, I been learned that nock left is to week shaft, nock right is to stiff shaft, is it something wrong with that? Or with wooden shaft should I go for the same as you show with carbon shafts? Appreciate your good answers
Excellent vid; backing up the theory with experimental evidence. It was interesting to see how the heavier points moved closer to the target. (I thought " how much difference can 10 20 grains make? Such a small unit of weight - wrong). I guess I can stop blaming my arrows for my poor shooting! 😟
HawkEye Great question. It all depends on what you want. I use to bare shaft from 8 yards (that is how wide my basement was). Once I got familiar with it. It went to 20. The closer is great because you are getting great flight much earlier. The longer distance can have some wobble and such, but it will still hit where you want. So in the end, what is more important to you is the question.
You said you'd pick the arrows that hit closest to your aiming point. These changes in bare shaft impact are due to the arrow flopping sideways as it goes around the bow. So, I'd pick the arrow that ended up going straightest, expecting that to have the most consistent results, and adjust my form to get it centered on target. Doesn't that make more sense?
No, not really. You want the arrow to hit where you are looking. If I did what you suggested, my arrow would never be on target and that is just another complication.
@@TradArchery101 Well, what if you picked the arrow that wobbled the least, and tried adjusting your form to get it to hit where you're looking, possibly by canting the bow to get the arrow directly under your eye?
@@DarxusC Canting does not generally affect where it hits. Unless you throw in a heavy cant. Then we come up on the quandary of "What if you are not able to cant your bow". Would it not be easier to change your anchor point to get the arrow under your eye? I would not worry about the "wobble" so much, that is why you have feathers.
You can move the Nock point up or down. Feather size and you can play with your rest/shelf and riser padding. now, the last two will only make a difference to an advanced archer who has good shot control.
talk is cheap u gutless piece of shit. your mouth is bigger than your brain. to attack some one on another persons channel is ignorance of the worst order. your a stupid ignorant bully. i've seen you attack many people now but real men don't call a prick a wee wee big fella. harharhar. how petty and jealous can you be. little man with the big ego. real men ride harlies. how did you get one. you should clean up your back yard it looks like a scrap yard. have a bad day in every way. stay off my channel goofy. if you don't have any thing positive to say hit the road. move along. your not welcome here. i saw a couple of your shows but there just stuff you have copied usually and your so inarticulate that you can't teach. when i see a show like this i say thanks to the guy for the good work, but your so ignorant ho bo or is that beauregard that any wisdom is wasted on you. @Combat Archery
Love the fact that all your info is evidence based. Newcomer to your vids but a stayer, liker, and subscriber. Just one Q. Is there any variance between bare shaft and plastic vanes?
You can, you will not be that accurate. What it means is stressing over tuning an arrow when your shot cycle changes more than it stays the same is not productive at all
@@TradArchery101 i apologize but I'm new to archery ( have shot maybe 250 arrows) and what you said didn't make sense to me , would you kindly explain what you Mean??? I would appreciate it!!!
I can try. It is a very long and complicated subject. All arrows bend with shot. How much an arrow bends is called spine. In archery you want an arrow that bends just right. To much bending and it is called “weak” and this will cause irregular arrow flight. Not enough bend and it is called “stiff” and can also cause arrow flight. Many things go into what the correct spine is: bow draw weight, how your bow is cut (this refers to the sight window, where the shelf is). Being the two biggies. Now, in order to get the perfect match of arrow and bow, people do what is called “tune”. They adjust the length of the arrow, the points weight, the nock height and brace height of the bow. The goal is to get the arrow to bend as little as possible while getting good arrow flight. The final factor is the archer. The archer has a huge influence on the forces put on the arrow and how it will fly. The two common things they will do is collapse and pluck. Doing either of these will send your arrow off to the side. Now, the general wisdom (for right handed archers) is if your arrows fly to the right, your arrows are weak and if they fly to the left they are stiff (the opposite for lefties). My point is if you are new and trying to tune, you can very likely be getting false readings. Many people train in the wrong order. I advocate RAT - Repeatable shot cycle - Aim - then tune. The key is got get your shot cycle down first. Many archers try to tune before they are ready and it cost them money and in accuracy.
Why does whether you shoot left or right handed reverse the spine's effect? I realize that the arrow has to clear the rest but after that I would think it's like a bullet which doesn't care whether you're left or right handed. Enquiring minds want to know!
The stiff arrows still hit more to the right even with fletched and the 200 grain arrow fletched was dead nuts center and the bare shaft is dead center so thats why you always bare shaft first to find the correct spine and then fletch. That will give you the most forgiveness.
People say that arrow spine, straightness and weight contribute to accuracy. I guess now spine doesn't count anymore, as long as we use feather. Am I right?
@@kandinovich Not really, there are always limits. My point was that new archers should worry about form, long before they worry about spine. As long as you are close you can shoot pretty good. Now will that take to the top level of competition? Nope. There comes a time, accuracy wise, where those little things can and will make a difference, it just will not for a new archer.
@@TradArchery101 Thank you for your quick response and great answer. Yes I'm a new archer and will work on my form more as you suggest. Keep up the good work. I've subscribed to this channel. Can't wait for another great videos. 👍
Good video. Yes feathers can correct when arrows are about the right spine or length. But they can't or struggle to correct arrows which are not in the spine window; for example are using say 500s in a 35lb bow that really needs 600 or 700s (assuming all arrows are same length and points) as the 500 arrows will still veer left (right-handed). The length of fletch and POC is also important. Brace height / and how much the rest is off-centre, and the mechanics of the release can also affect the magnitude of the arrow's deviation, but that's getting really complicated.
This is how I look at it. The correct spined arrow will tolerate more varibles in your shot cycle, while the wrong spine will not. I use too shoot 400 spined arrows out of my bows, that is what the charts, the pro shop told me to do. I shot just fine. Then as I progressed, I could start to see things in the arrows flight, that I did not see before. So one day, I bareshafted them and found them to be too stiff. What I found, was that for me, 600's work the best. My point is, 400's were just fine for me, for a while. The as I got better, they no longer were. This tells me that people (read newer archers) need to stop worrying about having that perfect arrow and work on getting that perfect form first.
The only thing you can really say with fletched arrows is if the nocking point is correct, cause you can see the arrow buck up or down in flight. Side to side, the arrow would have to be massively out of tune to see it fishtail.
Hmm.. I still saw it as basically fact WITH feathers, just a much smaller variance. Therefore the feathers correct enough to make operator error (the shooter :)) the greater variable. It does show how much we worry about little things when we should worry about...the operator. Thanks for your efforts.
That variance, means that in any group the 125 can and will be closer than the 200. How is that confirmed? Shooting without sights has an inherent level of variance to it. That level is equal to or greater than the variance between weights with feathers.
I'm grateful to you for many things so don't get upset with me. We're traveling the same path. I just bet that, say in a shooting machine, you'd still see the impact difference and certainly the flight difference, minor as it may be. Clay Hayes posted a video just now on arrow spine which is a good watch.
But how much? When you shoot at 20 yards at a target, what is your average score? That will determine the size of your shot group. Most people have a grouping size of 8 to 12" at 20 yards, yes, the best have much smaller, I understand that, but we are talking about the regular Joe. I score an an average of 7.2 on the WA Target and a 4.3 on the NFAA. That means my average grouping is 6" at twenty yards. Notice that all those arrows, even with different weights, spine, etc, all landed in that 6" area. In the end, I'm not consistent enough for it to make a difference to me and I'm willing to bet the same applies to the vast majority of archers out there. I never said there is a flight difference. What I said or meant to convey is that just because you are shooting to the left or right, it does not mean your arrows are off. It could just as easily be you and most likely is.
OK, I can certainly go along with that. In essence that's what I was trying to say. So the observed reality is largely fiction because of our skill level shooting barebow...but the science/math is still fact. How's that? Enjoy the arrival of spring. Looking forward to seeing your adventures.
@@dmouse522 What science / math says that it will? Not being combative, but if there is something I missed, then I would like to know. I can shoot arrows of various spines from my bows (and do) and still get the same scores, if the myth was so true, that would not happen.
Great vid. What would be awesome as well (obviously time consuming) would be to do the same test but with different size fletchings to see if that makes a big difference or not.
I'm not really sure how you could conclude that it was fiction with fetched arrows. Even though it was by a lesser degree; the heavier tipped arrows were consistently closer to the center point than the lighter ones. You also admitted that it was difficult not to look at the arrows that were already in the target, meaning that the the occasional heavy arrow being closer to the light arrow could have been completely shooter error. The only way to rule out shooter error is to build a job to hold the bow at the point of aim.
The rig will give you a "false" result. The Tradlab found that when comparing feather sizes, that they got one result for the rig and a very different result with done by a person. Unless you can have a shot cycle as consistent as a rig, then, yes it would apply. But we are nothing more than a walking variable machine. Every shot we take, has some degree of variance. You also missed my point. I can on average, at twenty yards, shot a group that is 6". The arrows with the weaker / heavier weight and spine still falls into that 6" group average. So there is no difference. Now if you can shoot a 2 or even 3" group consistently at 20 yards, then yes, it might be true. If you shoot a group that is larger than 6" at twenty yards, then there is no difference.
So feathers hide the error to some extent, depending on bow/spine/distance variables. Still the 200grain point was the closest to target in both situations. That means that a well tuned shaft with feathers is still better than a wrong spined shaft with feathers. So you actually confirmed the fact. Also you have to factor in the size of the feathers .... 2" feathers will struggle with the wrong shaft while 4-5" feathers will be fine ... Maybe that's another experiment ? off-spined arrow with 5-4-3-2" feathers ?
The 200 grain was within the same distance of the tape as the others. When shooting without sights and using split vision or instinctive there is an inherent degree of variance to your groups and that is exactly what the groupings showed. That all the areas consistently landed within that distance.
Based on what I saw in the video you seemed more accurate with the properly tuned arrow regardless of fletching. Obviously the fletching mitigates it, that's it's job. If you are aiming for a 10 at 20 yards and you hit a 5 that's a big deal. It's obviously worse to completely miss the target, but archery is a precision sport and even half an inch matters.
You use pretty big feathers, so I guess the difference could be split if using small target type fletchings? Very interesting, thanks for a clear demo :)
Maybe I need to watch this again, but let's say your bare arrows with 150 grain points hit the center each time. Add feathers to those same arrows and what would you expect to happen? Go off to the side?
No, The myth is: When a person post a picture of their grouping on a target, and the group is either to the left or right of the "X:, many comment (and I have heard and seen this on forums and in person) that the cause is that the arrows are too weak or stiff. I see and hear it all the time, but is that the reason? From what I have, it is not, it is more about the archer than the spine arrow. I wanted to see if that was true and it is for bare arrows. But add feathers and as you seen, they "corrected" the flight big time. So, if you are shooting off to the right or left, odds are, it is more due to you than your arrows.
How are you so accurate without sighting right down the arrow? It looks like your string is beside your head, not where you can actually Look right down the arrow. Thanks for your channel. Steve
The mind is amazing isn't it? The best way to describe what I'm doing is I can "Visualize" where ow will fly. Believe it or not, I can "see" the flight of the arrow.
Thats not it at all. The bare shaft tuning is for those who want to shoot broadheads. Its best to have your bow tuned to the best arrow and flying straight as possible with a bare shaft, but you will only see this when you add those front wings, called a broadhead to the front. You will not see much difference with just a fieldpoint. Most, but not everyone, but most who have trouble shooting broadheads at POA, once they bare shaft tune, they are dead on with their broadheads. Now some say they do not have that issue, and maybe they got lucky and did not have to bare shaft tune, or maybe its the style of blade on the broadhead, but I do know it happens to more shooters than not. So your video is obviously correct with just a field point. I have been shooting over 50 years, and like i said, most who have an issue with broadheads, it ends up being they have to bare shaft tune to find the proper arrow and point weight.
this is true though, i use a bow that shoots off center so i definetly notice when the shaft is to stiff because it has to wriggle around my shaft. u are using a classic bow with a cutout that shoots center so u will not notice it as much. only after many many many arrows i will say this shaft is to stiff or soft when i notice them going to the right or left.
A couple of comments for you...first, that's a lot of feather! It looks like 4x4" high profile feathers, which will stabilize an arrow with a field point, as you proved, that is way out of spec. I have to wonder what a broadhead would do that is that far out of spine. Second, it would be interesting to see how far the arrows are traveling before the feathers take over and make them behave. Would the stiffer arrows recover faster with the aid of the feathers? I don't know the answer, just pondering. Finally, it would appear you didn't have any severely underspined arrows in the mix. Could that change the outcome? Way to go, Greg. Now you've taken away one more excuse for when I'm shooting really crappy! Just kidding. Great video as usual.
I spoke to several engineers at Gold Tip and Easton and they said something that really blew me away. They said most trad bows don't shoot far enough or fast enough for it to make enough of a difference.
@@TradArchery101 That might explain why their spine charts suck so bad for traditional bows. What I have found is that if your arrow is well tuned to your bow, the difference between three fletch and four is that you use one more feather per arrow with four fletch. On the other hand, feathers create drag, which helps stabilize even out of tune arrows, more feather = more drag = quicker stabilization. Wooden arrows are not by their very nature as consistent as aluminum or carbon, so many guys use 5 1/2" high back feathers to quickly iron out those inconsistencies. Being mostly human, archers add to that inconsistency, so most of us need feathers for that as well. World class archers are models of consistency, which has a great deal to do with their consistent high scores.
fletching may HIDE the problem, but there is still the variable. I would like to see the same tests done but with a bow shooting device where it is locked into position and the nock point and final string position are in the exact same positions for every shot. you should from a physics point still see a slight difference even with the feathers. as the arrow leaves it starts creating what most already know as archers paradox, the feathers/veins not only control the spin, pitch etc, but the create drag at the back of the arrow and act like breaks allowing the tip to become faster than the back of the arrow (when the paradox is created the back of the arrow is actually moving faster than the tip creating the arch in the arrow) slowing it down sooner is optimal. with a weaker spine and heavier tip it makes the pardox more drastic. now all this may make some thing "that just proves it" not entirely, there is STILL going to be a variable cause the paradox WILL happen unless you are shooting tungsten or titanium rods.... now the fully fletched arrows will have a much smaller variance than unfletched. but best bet for absolute precision of the arrow (not necessarily the archer, thats always an uncertainty) is to test as shown here with them unfletched, THEN add the fletchings which will allow the feathers/veins to do other work rather than just try to correct the one issue. (also spine alignment is important) all this is more of a 3-5 inch group or a 1-2 inch group thing. so not MAJOR unless you are OCD like myself.
I cannot agree on a shooting machine, why? Because an archer is the biggest variable there is! On each shot we make, we do something different. A shooting machine is not a reasonable or accurate simulation of an archer, so why use one? As for the paradox, the flexing of the arrow is NOT the Archer's Paradox, sorry. Here is the correct definition of it: "The archer's paradox is the phenomenon of an arrow traveling in the direction it is pointed at full draw, when it seems that the arrow would have to pass through the starting position it was in before being drawn, where it was pointed to the side of the target. The bending of the arrow when released is the explanation for why the paradox occurs and should not be confused with the paradox itself. Flexing of the arrow when shot from a modern 'centre shot' bow is still present and is caused by a variety of factors, mainly the way the string is deflected from the fingers as the arrow is released." That is why a bow cut past center, does NOT have Archer's Paradox, neither does a compound or crossbow. Having OCD myself, I'm a stickler for what is and is not Archer's Paradox. You like some others are speaking and thinking in absolutes. I do not. I cannot, have not and most likely will not see any discernible difference, why? Because i have a 6" shot group at 20 yards and the variance between a stiffer and weaker arrow is not enough to show at that range. Now, will it show at 50 yards or more? Maybe, but I, and most archers do not shoot that distance.
@@TradArchery101 I used too shoot regularly between 50-120ish yards, but I mention the contraption to take the human variable out of the equation. the reason is once you have the most reliably repeatable bow and arrow combination then a person can work on themselves and their form being repeatable KNOWING what to expect of their equipment. the same thing goes for long range rifle shooting, once you have matched your ammunition loads, barrel harmonics, etc. then you can work on form, breathing, trigger pressure, gauging wind, coriolis effect. but if you change variables with the rifle and ammo itself or had something happening with the barrel seating then the tool that you are using is unreliable. so variances from one shot to the next the archer will try to compensate for the last shot, which may have not been the equipment, but rather their grip pressure, string release, a minor tremble in their hand they didnt notice. back to the long range rifle shooting, once I can remove all variables then I can see things like "I was 10 inches left, what did *I* do to cause it?" and not have to guess "was it me or the equipment?" in archery you have several things that even with centershot bows will create the archers paradox. now even as your video on AP said (I liked your explanation of it there btw), newtons law comes into play, if the arrow is not perfectly true, if the bow is not perfectly center shot aligned, if the nock point of the string is not perfectly parallel it will cause the oscillation to happen. everything has to be perfectly trued up to stop this from happening. a similar thing happens in rifle shooting, where the barrel actually flip flops (flexes/oscillates) around a centerline, thats when you adjust bullet weight, powder load and burn speed so when it leaves it does so in a repeatable way that has the least amount of course alteration when leaving the barrel. and a simple leaning into it to hard or on synthetic stocks to tight of a grip on the fore stock can effect the harmonics. I had that very issue on one of my rifles, but because I was shooting it myself, I couldnt get the sight to hold a zero in and make the same shot twice. I would be 18 inches left, I would adjust and then shoot 35 to the left or 25 to the right. it was because one of the anchor/brace points for the barrel had broke and the barrel was shifting around and causing the harmonics to be off. until it is fixed it will never be reliable. if I had it in a rifle brace I could have found this issue MUCH sooner, rather than me trying to compensate for it. its not that I dont like what you've done, it does show a reasonable pattern, just saying it would be nice to see a more exacting degree. yes partially is alignment, but also the lighter the tip the less it will do this, the arrow spine stiffness is a way to artificially correct that. now I am not asking you to do such a lengthy setup, a true scientific approach would take hundreds of shots with each spine weight and tip weight and making sure all their spine stong/weak sides match etc. lots of math and recordings. just saying I would LIKE to see it (somewhere)
@@brettleisy356 I’m well versed in firearms, having used and still use them for the past 35 plus years at work and in the service. In all courses, the first thing you are taught is form. In basic, in the service (I was Airborne Infantry), we did the Dime Washer exercise for a full week before we fired a single round. In Archery, every instructor will tell you work form first, then tune. Not vice versa. You cannot have a good tune unless you have proper form. They teach using the Acronym of RAT, Repeatable Shot Cycle, Aim and finally Tune. I still question it. Let me ask you, how big was your shot groups at 50 yards or 100 plus? Wide weren’t they? Check out the Lancaster classic, the best shooters and they are trying to hit a target the size of a dime (17mm) at only 18 meters, and yet they do not hit it all the time, heck not even most of the time and they have the best equipment and form out there and they are not even consistent enough. That is why a machine is not indicative. If the best out there cannot group tight enough for it to matter, how will it for you? Nope, to me, it is just something for you to worry about, that you don’t need to. Now, I’m not saying tune is not important. I’m saying that if you make your arrow “stiffer/weaker” (all within reason of course), you are not going see any significant change in your shooting. Sorry, but nothing you have wrote has changed my view or opinion. Center shot bows will not have it (Archers Paradox). Arrows must oscillate, basic physics, but it is not the Archers Paradox. Too many have corrupted the mean into that, but that does not make it true. I shot plenty of arrows and when you see a consistent pattern, that is when I stop and call it. I shot all the arrows with the same weight and recorded where they hit. I then shot them one at a time with different weights and recorded it and finally I shot them mixed and recorded it and I no measurable difference that could not be accounted for by form variance. Like I said you want absolute, but there is none here. Too many variables to take into account. No one is a machine and no one can or will duplicate the results of once on a consistent basis.
@@TradArchery101 80% of my shots were within a 10 inch pattern. I practiced until I was sure of it being reasonably consistent, as I was using my bow for hunting a large portion of the time I wanted to ensure a heart shot (approx 10 inches for a grown dear's heart) I understand the imperfections of machines and manufacturing, I was only suggesting removing a variable. you can have the greatest form in the world, but if the tuning is not proper or erratic (mixed arrows and tip weight etc) you will never pull in the group size. its like when I went down to buy a new driver to add to my golf bag, I hit a few SMASHING shot straight down the middle. took it to the course and couldnt hit the fairway. went to a gold instructor and swung a few dozen times and even tho I dont have a "perfect" swing it was very repeatable and other clubs seemed fine. so he took the club in and did a quick test to see if the spine was mis aligned. not only wasnt it aligned it seemed to not have one and it would just go all over. 85 dollars later and new shaft in the club and I was hitting the fairways again. now if that problem wasnt corrected I would have been making constant adjustments trying to fix the problem and my form would actually get WORSE as I would constantly be changing my stance. swing plane, alignment of head at address, weight shifting. an archers, long range rifleman's, and a golfer's accuracy and precision have things in common. (even down to playing pool) form will limit the equipment and equipment will limit the from. we can not out of the box fix form, that is a learned thing, but we CAN make sure our equipment is set up properly. I am not saying spend 2 grand on a bow and arrow set up, this is true in many aspects of life. I dont care how good the nascar driver is, you put him in a gocart he wont be beating the average joe in a race. there is only so much skill and form can make up for. put average joe and the nascar driver in the same vehicle and the professional will humiliate the average joe, but now the ceiling of the average joe to get better and is raised. if this were not true no advancements would ever be made to archery gear cause it literally wouldnt make any difference. I would just go grab a stick, put a string on it and shoot smaller sticks with it. pro golfers would still use hickory sticks and wooden heads, etc. my rifle once fixed will be 3/4" MOA @100, so anything more than that will be an error on my part. last rifle I had that shot like that I shot 1.5" MOA which means 3/4" was my errors. but if the rifle was 6" MOA I would never be able to improve past that 6" group and would only lead to frustration. and no amount of drills would EVER fix it. I do like this video cause it explains things to a lot of people that otherwise wouldnt understand certain principles. and you at some point will be buying new arrows including the people watching this video. and a little testing can help. I know at the cabelas here I can test shafts etc, and I can even test without the fletchings and find what is the best raw shaft/tip combo, then the appropriate veins. you are very correct in that a persons form will alter things, string release torquing the string, anchor point repeat-ability, etc. but removing those from testing and physics are figured, then the archer can work on form in a more productive manner. ESPECIALLY when learning basics. I'll take this back to when I first started around 8... my parents bought a cheap archery bow and a bunch of random practice arrows out of a bin. went to lessons, learned a few things. but I saw very little improvement. I was still missing the target at times no matter how much I adjusted and changed. but I REALLY wanted to learn. my parents broke down and got me an actual set and some extra arrows that were the same that came with the bow. MAJOR difference. I was hitting the target regularly and after a couple hours of practicing I was inside of 4 rings pretty consistently. a couple of weeks later and practicing 2-3 hours a day I was starting to stack arrows to the point I was having to replace arrows more often as I was breaking them. no I never "robin hooded" an arrow, but not for the lack of trying. some of it was down to odds as I was lazy and didnt want to walk and grab three arrows every time so I would shoot 8-12 at a time. but that other bow and misc arrows, when ever I took it out to use it was all on target... but that's about all that could be said for it.
Brett Leisy 10” at 100 with a recurve? Sights? Not barebow. Your example is not the norm. That first bow did not have arrows even close to being correct. I and most recurve shooters do. The video is about if stiffer or weaker arrows will consistently fly off to one side or the other. That is what I tested. And my conclusion is that it does not. Not given the normal variance the we have. I based it on many “experts” telling people on FB and on the forums that the reason they are shooting to the left (for example) is because their arrow is too stiff or too weak. That is nonsense. And all my test confirmed that it is nonsense. Again, this is not about shooting with a 20 pound bow and 340 spines. It is about having a reasonable setup. I also disagree with drills not correcting things. Been doing drills all my life and if they didn’t help, then why did I get better because of them and why does every top coach / instructor use them on a regular basis? Why? Because they work.
Well, the higher spined arrows are still going to the right with feathers, just to a lesser degree than the bare shaft. So the "myth" is correct. But it is clear that feathers help mitigate the effect, though.
It may appear that way on first impression. In all my testing, the arrows landed within a 6" area of the "X", otherwise known as the four ring on an NFAA 300 target. I even tracked where they hit, using a grid square I imposed over it. There was no consistent result by the different weights, no one type of arrow would land in the same spot on a consistent enough basis for me to say that. What it did show, is that I, and not the arrow has more of an impact on shooting left or right of the target. To say it is due to the arrow, is most likely wrong, it is you, the archer who is most likely making the arrow miss to the left or right.
@@TradArchery101 there was a clear correlation to the shots you showed in the video. The 200 grain and the 800 spine arrows were closer to center on both the fletched and bare shaft arrows. The more spined the arrows, the more right they went. It's just that the fletched went right to a much less degree than the bare shafted, but they still went right of the lower spine. So basically fletchings mute the effect, but don't remove it.
I understand what you are saying. But what you did not see, and I did not show was all the other rounds I shot. While, the 200 Grain Point and the 800 Spine flew better. When I shot at a 300 and a 450 target, that did not bear out. I kept getting the same scores and the arrows were not consistently in one spot to confirm it. The one really comes down to how tight of a group you can shoot. Me, like I said, my group is around 6", with a group that big, there was no appreciable difference. I could shoot the 600's with a 125 grain point and maintain my scores. Now if you have a group smaller than mine, then I could see it. If you have a group larger than mine, then no way. I can see that I did not do an adequate job of describing this and for that I thank you.
If you are a hunter, and your feathers get wet (because it's not always great weather) the fletchings stop working nearly as well. In that situation you would wish you had calibrated for spine stiffness.
I question that. What is the average distance most trad hunters shoot at? 15 and under. It will not make that much of a difference. I have shot in the pouring rain with no problem in a shoot and in hunting.
@@TradArchery101 Do you doubt that wet fletchings make them ineffective? Or just doubt that ineffective fletchings would make a significant impact? Out west in the open country where I live shots are very often 30+ yards, so if there is an impact on flight it would really hamper your ability to shoot that elk, for instance. I could have sworn I saw a slow motion video once of an arrow with wet fletchings, but after a long search I couldn't find it. So I guess I don't have proof. You could make proof to the contrary though, I don't mind being proven wrong, and it could make a cool video for you to shoot arrows of differing spines with wet fletchings at different ranges and show the results.
Christopher Rowley 30 yards? Using a compound bow are you? Check out this video of us shooting a 3D course in the pouring rain. With no affect on our arrows. Have done it many times. ruclips.net/video/nEqEypdzRdQ/видео.html
I have always wondered...I shoot a compound bow with an assortment of spines (feathered and vaned), and usually shoot a pretty tight group from 20 yards out to 40 yards. 340 spine Carbon to 2218 Aluminum, even with tips ranging from 100 to 150 grains, and it made me wonder about all of this "spine" concern. Indeed, the feathers or vanes cover a multitude of variables. Great test and marksmanship!
As for test No. 1, yes, there is no arguing - a fact! But at the expense of the second ... What is the fiction? After all, the same two arrows as in the first test (p2,800 Spine, 125gn & gt 600 with 200gn point) showed the best result, showed the best result in test No. 2. The rest were simply better stabilized and horizontal scatter was minimized. Test number 2 fact? I think)))
So, what you would do is shoot bare shaft untill you tuned your arrows to your bow. Once perfectly tuned ... you would put feathers on it. Now you have a perfectly tuned arrow, spine, weight and lenght to your bow.
Hi, my name is Paul, I live in Perth, Western Australia and I have just seen some of your videos today for the first time.
I think that you are doing excellent experimenting and testing, you also have a great way about you and your humour is right up my alley. As well as being a good archer thanks for your imput and helping any archer who is willing to learn, thankyou.
The reason my arrows shoot to the left or right is because I suck at shooting most times. one of the best archery channels on tube.
LOL! Same with me!!! My arrows look like they fly like drunk!
Thank you for this video not many lefties posting and I enjoy watching you. I live in the UK and shoot barebow but with carbon arrows. My fletched arrows fly fine but the bareshaft always lands to the left indicating a weak arrow. Realised now that the weight of three small plastic fletches (weight 10 grains plus glue) change the spine of the arrow. So I put some electrical tape on the bareshaft so that bareshaft and fletched are balanced at the same point along the arrow. Now my bareshaft can hit at 30M with the fletched arrows. You shoot with 4 or 5 inch feathers that must weigh much more than 10 grains. I would really love you to repeat this test with balanced fletched and bareshaft arrows of the same spine and post the results. It made so much difference to me I think you may be surprised yourself.
Good point. Can make a difference. I use a bit af Scotch tape to tape down the plastic vanes. Not perfect but keeps the weight very similar and saves a lot of work stripping the vanes without damaging the carbon shafts I use.
Always nice to see you lefty shooting. It's NOT boring. You're quite an inspiration 🎯
Either you pre-marked your arrows, or else you have been blessed with awesome vision for reading the tip weights. Fantastic video have learned much, thank you.
The Amazing Goldfish
Used different colored nocks for each weight.
The tuning issues you describe mostly only apply to Olympic shooters, trying to hit that 3" circle at 90 meters (now 70 meters). For them, they are trying to reduce their fletchings to as little as possible. Since you are using an entire goose wing for your fletchings, it will make little difference.
The medieval arrows had huge fletchings (I believe) is because they needed to stabilize arrows over a variety of distances, and draw lengthe and weights.
I typically spind my arrows as bare shafts, and then only use bare shafts to correct my form.
I also shoot trad style, and use the biggest feathers that are still point on at 50 yards.
Like you said... they cure a lot of sins.
hear is another important thing if you pick a bare shaft and choose the correct arrow then fletch it if you are hunting and your feathers get wet your impact will remain consistent also putting a broadhead up front will change your point of impact if your not matching spines right. this is very critical for hunting and really where this left and right idea came from.
Having experience with “weak” arrows, then arrows that were too stiff for my poundage/draw, I found (personally) that when you’re shooting the correct spine, the arrow doesn’t flop around during flight.
What does this mean? Look at how your arrows impact the target from various distances...are the arrow perpendicular to where you launched from? Correct spine always will be.
Terrific method! I trust what you think after watching just this video. Thank you.
thanks so much for doing this video, you really made me see the light and fix my consistent left of aimpoint groups
Hi Jeff, my name is Alejandro and I live in Argentina. This video like the others are very interesting and the aid to me to improve my shoting style and to tune up propely my arrows. Thanks a lot pal I really apreciate its. Congrats great job. See you. Alejo.
Thank you, this is one of the best videos on the web!
Do you think whether or not a bow has a center-shot/near-center-shot shelf matters? I would speculate that correct spine compensating for the archer's paradox matters on bows without any kind of shelf. Great demonstration and experiment, though!
Totally does, English longbow are much more susceptible to arrows of wrong spine going off, as they don't have a cut out, the arrow have to bend more to travel round the bow. I shoot English long how and American flatbow, flatbows with cut out arrow shelves are much more forgiving to wrongly matched spines
Hello Greg, I've been attempting to tune a couple of different spine arrows to a couple of bow set ups. One set up is a Bear Takedown "B" riser with #3 limbs that are 43# @ 28" & the bow is 64". My draw is 30" so this set up is roughly 48#. I'm using Gold Tip Traditional 400 arrows at full length of 31.5" I'm also using Easton Aftermath 340 at full length. The issue is, I have viewed this video multiple times where you state for a right handed shooter if your bare shafts hit to the right their weak and to the left their stiff. I'm a right handed shooter and I shot these arrows with a 125 gr tip and they impacted 18" right, as I increased tip weight they moved toward the center until I shot both arrows with 300gr field tips and both were hitting on center? I'm confused? Can you please explain how this can be?
The cause can many different things. The first is your bow and arrows. Is the bow cut to center? At first glance a 340 spine is waaay to stiff. Personally I run 500 or 600’s from that poundage bow.
With that said, plucking can give you a false reading, like what you are seeing.
The other, and this is a big one, is the material you are shooting into. For the best readings, new material is preferred.
Have a Buddy stance behind you and watch your arrow flight and you release hand and work from there.
@@TradArchery101 I understand what your saying, and agree that these things can affect the outcome. I took your videos to heart and I've changed from hay bales to a 4x4 Bulldog target and I shoot multiple times to try to eliminate those bad shots. I was shooting from 17yds. I knew I would have to really weaken the 340 spine because these are used as my high FOC hunting arrows but I thought the 400's would be good for the length and weight of bow? The 340's give me 300gr up front and 620gr total weight. I also shoot a 500 Victory and I tested it with a 125gr and it also had the same effect, far right hit and as I increased it to 200gr it came back to center. I have the 600 Victory arrows that I'm going to be testing to see what the difference is. I normally use these for my lighter bows. The Bear riser is cut to center. One other thing is I removed the strike plate and replaced it with some tape quit a while ago to move the arrow body further right on the shelf. I use this as another adjustment like a plunger. I'm going to do a lot more testing to make sure I get good shots. I will also get someone to video the flight and my release as suggested. I normally shoot a consistent 4-6" group at 20 yds. I consider myself a experienced shooter but this is definitely playing with my head but I know I'll figure it out with help from people like yourself. Thank You for taking time to help me sort this out.
as one lefty to another this helps alot thanks
Liked your skit. First thing I noticed was you’re a lefty like me. I’m honestly a great target shooter with a compound but my trads I have yet to master.
I’ve shot quite a few traditional long, recurves.
I sold my 3Rivers SS Tomahawk 55#. I don’t hunt anymore.
Kept my 37# Centaur by Jim Neeves. Excellent shooter
I’m really surprised by the results as I am using 31” 100-125grain 500 spine from the 35-37# Centaur with great results.
I’m going to try bare shaft 500-800 micro shafts
My experience is the same. However, I put a lot of work into getting the nock point right, so I get consistent arrow flight, no ups and downs. Then i can work on side to side.
Whip the nocking point, makes it easier.
Super educational. Thanks a lot!
At last someone talking sense.
I've always said bare shaft testing is like trying to set up the handing of you car by running it without tyres! ;-)
Yes they do if the Bow is not Center Cut or nearly center cut, then the stiffness matters if keeping bow vertical in hand and not tilting bow to accommodate for spine weight (archers paradox) not bending on stiff arrow or for lower poundage bows as stiff arrows can be too heavy for the bow. Too weak can be a problem too with bows if the poundage is too high on the bow as the arrow can shatter on the bow if not made for using a rather high poundage.
Excellent video, There will be people who still won't accept this.
hi love archery but that test over that short distance does not prove a thing because of the archers paradox is to great at that distance i would also like to add his jumper sometimes interfered with the string
There is no degree to the Archers Paradox, a bow either has it or it does not. As for distance, the vast majority of Traditional archers shoot 20 yards and under.
@@TradArchery101 okay i shoot a recurve olympic style bow up to 100 yards and the spine of the arrow makes a hell of the difference
@@electoplater yes. but at 100 yards, every mistake and mismatch is amplified.
what he's saying is that feathers will hide a poor spine selection. Having the correct spine is still important - especially at the extreme level (like olympic).
not to mention that many olympic archers use fletchings such as spin-wings which promote higher degree of spin while being short so that they are not as affected by cross wind. Traditional fletchings are great for correction since they have more surface area, however over a great distance, they will also drift more than something like spin-wings.
Most enlightening. Thanks for the information.
A lot of variables affect arrow flight and your video showed one of them. If an archer draws with a deep hook he can shoot a stiffer arrow than one who shoots off the first joint of his fingers. To each his own but I think shooting off the first joint of your fingers gives a cleaner release.I can see arrow problems with or without fletching. I enjoyed your video as I see you enjoy traditional archery and not into the gadgetry so prevalent these days.
This is correct for the most part but I can tell you as a former target shooter and Hunter that when you put that big broad head up front it changes everything the reason I always taught to bare shaft to your arrow to your bow is because most people hunt also and they can put on the Brodhead and get good flight or if you’re shooting in the rain and your feathers are wet you will have a good flight I always believe a well tuned arrow is the best option like for you the 200 grain point shot spot on . Good video
Makes me wonder then, is it the broad head or the arrow? I would have to say the broad head. Bare shaft is big, it is not hard and just gives you better flight, why not do that?
Archery 101 I always do
To me it seems from what you showed us , the heavier the tip the more accurate the shot .
PS , I loved your reaction to those 500 grain arrows in some other vid you did .
That is called FOC. I for one do not understand it, but it works and works really well.
Good Video, question, your learned opinion on Vanes, and the comment I have heard, that for short range, (5 -10 metres for example), larger/longer vanes are better, because they straighten the arrow quicker? but also said, this creates more drag for shooting longer ranges,. When I used to shoot longbows they had a traditional pattern, now I am shooting lighter Eastern style bows, with modern carbon arrows.
I do not have the answers, just some questions and points. The first being (and I think I "might" have a way to test this) is how much difference does that 1" of feather make in correcting an arrow? The next one is, if an arrow can travel 30 plus yard in a second, and you are shooting at 20 yards, that means the feathers have less than one second to "correct" the flight, so how much influence can the feathers have in less than a second?
As for drag, I do not know if it produces more, we all assume it does. But how much? Is it enough to change the flight of the arrow that much?
I think with your Scientific and technical background, this could be a good one to cover, as there is so many different vane shapes and sizes, what is the optimum based on arrow weight and bow power etc, how much of a difference do they make. I found your videos on no vanes very interesting
Great video, the intro was funny, well done ! Can this test be redone in the future with different spined arrow shafts and the same point weight. Just as a comparison to this test. I,m interested to see if adding tip weight is similar to a shaft stiffness. Keep up the great work.
Learned a lot, debunked some old wives tales. Some I always doubted! So very very true feathers are your friend and can overcome some other variables. GREAT VIDEO! THANKS MUCH.
Hello Greg. I really enjoy your information. Is Nock Left and Nock Right a different conversation altogether? It gets very confusing with all the different explanations on video. Thanks.
Sorry about that I'm sure you know this, if not give it a try. Take you arrow with say 125gr point. For you shooting left handed it shoots to the right (stiff) raise your brace height until your shooting center. You can also do this if your arrows are weak but fly straight just lower your brace height. Thank you and keep them coming.
Altering the brace height effects the performance of the bow, I'd go with manufacturers recommended brace height and tune your arrows.
What youre suggesting is effectively tuning your bow to the arrows, some bows (English longbows) have a very short tolerance for brace height adjustment, bows are much more expensive to replace than arrows, tune arrows to bows, not bows to arrows.
I find that when I start shooting to the left or right, it's a result of getting sloppy with my anchor point or release.
Greg, another good video for discussion and thought, thanks. Every range has its share of Jimmy Joes, and if it's on the Innertube it must be fact, right? I shoot mostly aluminum 500grain\125point arrows with my 45lb barebow recurves and I've come to the opinion that any shooting consistency or lack thereof is mostly up to the operator, and my focus or lack thereof.
I whole hardheartedly agree. Operator head spacing and time.
personally, the small fetching used today causes bad flight with broadheads as much as anything. 3 5inch feathers covers a multitude of sin
That’s funny I’ve recently done a very similar test.
I’ve been shooting carbons, but I’m not allowed to use carbons outdoors at our club, so I decided to try some aluminium. I don’t really understand aluminium ratings so I bought one of each to test. I bought a 2016, 1916, 1816, 1716, 1616 and shot at a target pin at 20 yards with a 30lb recurve and a 40lb flatbow.
Without exception I was grouping within an inch of each other and more often than not the arrows were touching each other. I couldn’t believe it, I was expecting not only vertical dispersion, but also horizontal dispersion, but they all basically hit the same spot.
I haven’t done bareshafting, but with feathers this video 100% matches what I found out in my own testing.
I no longer care so much about finding the perfect arrow, I’m currently most accurate using 400 carbons which by every spine chart I’ve ever seen says is WAY too stiff for any of my bows, but when I release my arrow properly the arrow goes in a straight line and hits directly above where I aim with the tip of my arrow and at 30 yards it pretty much a point on shot.
The only time I seem to get trouble with arrow spine is if I go really weak, something over 700.
Good work Greg.
Try it at longer distances the differences will become more apparent. My experience is spine weight does make a difference, although certain bows (the wider the more the arrow has to bend passed the bow) are more susceptible. Recurves and flatbows with cut outs mean the arrow needs much less bend and so are much more forgiving of wrongly matched spines
Dave
When I bareshaft my arrows they don’t go in straight unless the length is cut to allow the best spine. RH shooter too long an arrow will be weak and nock left. Cut too short and it is nock right. The arrows do not go straight but fly sideways when the spine isn’t matching. I have snapped off wood arrows after they hit the target due to this.
Point weight of course alters the spine.
Do you agree?
Some people say to leave arrows long for a smaller gap. I say I would rather have a correctly spined arrow for better flight.
Thanks for the video. My experience is the same. Much harder to see spine differences with Fletcher arrows than sometimes portrayed.
Very interesting test... Well you cant argue with the results...
Does that same result apply with short plastic fletching?
Greg this was a great video. Just one question. Why all your bareshafts hitting straight ?
I have to think some of the shaft should definitely be hitting on an angle being too stiff or too weak no?
Not always, that is a myth. A clean release really helps (not that I have one).Feathers also correct a ton. So many variables go into it that there really are few absolute answers.
Hi Greg,
I am not sure where the best place to ask you is but there is relay something that I need your opinion about.
I am RH gap shooter. I was shooting three under and now I am trying to switch to split finger.
I never ever have done a bare shaft or paper tuning but I can say that all my sets bow/arrows are shooting straight - no right or left deviations, except from the usual errors :)
I shoot on the exact same way for both three under and split finger! All in my shooting cycle is the same - body position, hands positions, draw, anchor, alignment: eye - string - arrow - hands, release ...all except the place where the arrow is.
My issue - not saying problem yet :) is that when I shoot split finger all groups tend to land on the right side!
I always blame my form so probably this is the answer...but please, I really want to know what you think.
Can the place I hold the string affect the stiffness? I have some feeling that I have seen something related to similar problem for string walking ...but just do not remember...
Thanks
It could be several things. Using three under or split can change the tiller enough to have an affect. It really depends on several factors. Your set up could be at the point where that could affect it. Also, your release does change between the two, that could also be a contributor.
For me, I just make an adjustment to my aiming. It is just easier than chasing a new set up.
Thanks a million!!!
I think you are absolutely right!
I will accept it as a fact... Will give myself some time the form to re-adjust to the change...and after that if it is needed I will re-adjust the arrows!
its nice seeing something for left handers
thank God not much around for left handers
I just bought a bow. New to archery. Id like to know. Whats causing my arrows to tumble and rotate. At like 12 feet. They rotate to the right and sometimes tumbles forward. By rotate im mean arches around.
Does the nock end twirl in a circular motion? Is that what you mean?
Great video. Lots to think about.
This is pretty interesting. Thanks for putting this out.
so if you wanted to shoot a lighter point you would go with a heavier spine? 500 gr spine for your 125 or 100 grain point? also what happens if you add a heavier knock on the back?
Great question and it all depends on how you approach shooting. Do you choose the point first or the spine?
I choose a spine arrow, and then work (via tuning) on what point I should use. I have found no difference (shooting at 20 yards) with more (within a reasonable amount) weight on the back.
@@TradArchery101 only reason why i asked about weight on the back, I am looking at getting aluminum knocks. I guess what is a "good" arrow weight for hunting deer with a 40# recurve? I am confused on arrow weight, what type of broadheads to use and what type of spine to match up the broadheads? Thanks again!
@@hambone950
The general, and I mean "General" rule for hunting arrows is 10 Grains of weight per pound. So, you want at least an arrow set up that weighs 400 grains minimum.
There is a good deal of debate about much the broadhead should weigh. There are those who love heavy FOC (Front of Center). This is where you have a very heavy point (around 200 grains). Now, I have shot them and for whatever reason, they fly great.
If you are going to hunt, just remember that the range if 10 to 18 yards max. You are no shooting long distance and do not need a perfect arrow. What you need is an arrow that hits where you want and a sharp enough broadhead.
@@TradArchery101 thank you
With ideally tuned shaft it should be possible to use shorter/narrower fletchings and still get accurate impacts. That is, less corrective guidance needed from fletchings. And shorter/narrower fletchings will yield bit faster arrow flight . . . though how much I know not.
Yes, Getting that properly tuned arrow, will increase speed, distance, energy etc, due to losing less energy in correcting the flight. There is a line, if you are a target archer, then you want that perfect flight. Then again, if you are new and learning, then not so much, same for the recreational archer. They can shoot just as well with one that is "close" as opposed to being "perfect".
Greg, one question, when I shoot Wooden bareshaft, I been learned that nock left is to week shaft, nock right is to stiff shaft, is it something wrong with that?
Or with wooden shaft should I go for the same as you show with carbon shafts?
Appreciate your good answers
Lars Blankenfjell
I was always told that it is the same for wood and carbon
Excellent vid; backing up the theory with experimental evidence. It was interesting to see how the heavier points moved closer to the target. (I thought " how much difference can 10 20 grains make? Such a small unit of weight - wrong). I guess I can stop blaming my arrows for my poor shooting! 😟
Love your videos, Greg! Do you have a recommended distance to shoot bare shaft arrows?
HawkEye
Great question. It all depends on what you want. I use to bare shaft from 8 yards (that is how wide my basement was).
Once I got familiar with it. It went to 20.
The closer is great because you are getting great flight much earlier.
The longer distance can have some wobble and such, but it will still hit where you want.
So in the end, what is more important to you is the question.
Try 35 yards, work up 5 at a time after that, see what you like best.
You said you'd pick the arrows that hit closest to your aiming point.
These changes in bare shaft impact are due to the arrow flopping sideways as it goes around the bow. So, I'd pick the arrow that ended up going straightest, expecting that to have the most consistent results, and adjust my form to get it centered on target. Doesn't that make more sense?
No, not really. You want the arrow to hit where you are looking. If I did what you suggested, my arrow would never be on target and that is just another complication.
@@TradArchery101 Well, what if you picked the arrow that wobbled the least, and tried adjusting your form to get it to hit where you're looking, possibly by canting the bow to get the arrow directly under your eye?
@@DarxusC
Canting does not generally affect where it hits. Unless you throw in a heavy cant. Then we come up on the quandary of "What if you are not able to cant your bow".
Would it not be easier to change your anchor point to get the arrow under your eye?
I would not worry about the "wobble" so much, that is why you have feathers.
Other than proper spine, point weight and arrow length what more can be done for optimal arrow tuning prior to fletching?
You can move the Nock point up or down. Feather size and you can play with your rest/shelf and riser padding. now, the last two will only make a difference to an advanced archer who has good shot control.
excellent demonstration. thank yew
talk is cheap u gutless piece of shit. your mouth is bigger than your brain. to attack some one on another persons channel is ignorance of the worst order. your a stupid ignorant bully. i've seen you attack many people now but real men don't call a prick a wee wee big fella. harharhar. how petty and jealous can you be. little man with the big ego. real men ride harlies. how did you get one. you should clean up your back yard it looks like a scrap yard. have a bad day in every way. stay off my channel goofy. if you don't have any thing positive to say hit the road. move along. your not welcome here. i saw a couple of your shows but there just stuff you have copied usually and your so inarticulate that you can't teach. when i see a show like this i say thanks to the guy for the good work, but your so ignorant ho bo or is that beauregard that any wisdom is wasted on you. @Combat Archery
Love the fact that all your info is evidence based. Newcomer to your vids but a stayer, liker, and subscriber. Just one Q. Is there any variance between bare shaft and plastic vanes?
Btw, I am a fellow lefty
Brilliant. Thank you.
Great video. Would it be the same with plastic vanes I wonder? Feathers have amazing properties.
Great Question and one I do not have the answer too. I only shoot feathers.
I see You Ruffling a Few Feathers or No Feathers?
Unreal work, thanks Matey.
So as a beginner trad archer, how should I tune my arrows for hunting. With or without fletching.
It is really up to you, how accurate do you want to be? By this I mean how small of a target at what range do you want to be able to hit?
Ok thank you, I am learning more everyday and I am currently working on foc.
So does this mean you can shoot basically any spine with feathers with any draw weight ??? More or less???
You can, you will not be that accurate. What it means is stressing over tuning an arrow when your shot cycle changes more than it stays the same is not productive at all
@@TradArchery101 i apologize but I'm new to archery ( have shot maybe 250 arrows) and what you said didn't make sense to me , would you kindly explain what you Mean??? I would appreciate it!!!
I can try. It is a very long and complicated subject.
All arrows bend with shot.
How much an arrow bends is called spine.
In archery you want an arrow that bends just right. To much bending and it is called “weak” and this will cause irregular arrow flight.
Not enough bend and it is called “stiff” and can also cause arrow flight.
Many things go into what the correct spine is: bow draw weight, how your bow is cut (this refers to the sight window, where the shelf is). Being the two biggies.
Now, in order to get the perfect match of arrow and bow, people do what is called “tune”. They adjust the length of the arrow, the points weight, the nock height and brace height of the bow. The goal is to get the arrow to bend as little as possible while getting good arrow flight.
The final factor is the archer. The archer has a huge influence on the forces put on the arrow and how it will fly. The two common things they will do is collapse and pluck. Doing either of these will send your arrow off to the side.
Now, the general wisdom (for right handed archers) is if your arrows fly to the right, your arrows are weak and if they fly to the left they are stiff (the opposite for lefties).
My point is if you are new and trying to tune, you can very likely be getting false readings. Many people train in the wrong order. I advocate RAT - Repeatable shot cycle - Aim - then tune. The key is got get your shot cycle down first. Many archers try to tune before they are ready and it cost them money and in accuracy.
@@TradArchery101 that was EXTREMELY helpful, I truly can't thank you enough, you have earned my subscription my friend.
Great subject as always .
Why does whether you shoot left or right handed reverse the spine's effect? I realize that the arrow has to clear the rest but after that I would think it's like a bullet which doesn't care whether you're left or right handed. Enquiring minds want to know!
I think that the contact between the arrow and the bow and the forces acting on the arrow are symmetrically reverse for the right hand bow.
Great question. My only thought is that force applied to the arrow are from a different direction.
The stiff arrows still hit more to the right even with fletched and the 200 grain arrow fletched was dead nuts center and the bare shaft is dead center so thats why you always bare shaft first to find the correct spine and then fletch. That will give you the most forgiveness.
Greg, you can also change your arrow impact right or left by raising or lowering your brace height that's with straight flying arrows, which I'm su
Thank you, Greg!
But how about plastic/rubber vanes?
I get the same effect with plastic vanes. They hide a lot of errors in both nocking point and stiffness not being right.
Cannot say, I do not use them. But I would assume ( I know we should not do that), that the result would be similar.
People say that arrow spine, straightness and weight contribute to accuracy. I guess now spine doesn't count anymore, as long as we use feather. Am I right?
@@kandinovich
Not really, there are always limits. My point was that new archers should worry about form, long before they worry about spine. As long as you are close you can shoot pretty good. Now will that take to the top level of competition? Nope.
There comes a time, accuracy wise, where those little things can and will make a difference, it just will not for a new archer.
@@TradArchery101 Thank you for your quick response and great answer. Yes I'm a new archer and will work on my form more as you suggest.
Keep up the good work. I've subscribed to this channel. Can't wait for another great videos. 👍
Thanks for your informative video series.
Good video. Yes feathers can correct when arrows are about the right spine or length. But they can't or struggle to correct arrows which are not in the spine window; for example are using say 500s in a 35lb bow that really needs 600 or 700s (assuming all arrows are same length and points) as the 500 arrows will still veer left (right-handed). The length of fletch and POC is also important. Brace height / and how much the rest is off-centre, and the mechanics of the release can also affect the magnitude of the arrow's deviation, but that's getting really complicated.
This is how I look at it. The correct spined arrow will tolerate more varibles in your shot cycle, while the wrong spine will not. I use too shoot 400 spined arrows out of my bows, that is what the charts, the pro shop told me to do. I shot just fine.
Then as I progressed, I could start to see things in the arrows flight, that I did not see before. So one day, I bareshafted them and found them to be too stiff. What I found, was that for me, 600's work the best.
My point is, 400's were just fine for me, for a while. The as I got better, they no longer were. This tells me that people (read newer archers) need to stop worrying about having that perfect arrow and work on getting that perfect form first.
The only thing you can really say with fletched arrows is if the nocking point is correct, cause you can see the arrow buck up or down in flight. Side to side, the arrow would have to be massively out of tune to see it fishtail.
Hmm.. I still saw it as basically fact WITH feathers, just a much smaller variance. Therefore the feathers correct enough to make operator error (the shooter :)) the greater variable. It does show how much we worry about little things when we should worry about...the operator. Thanks for your efforts.
That variance, means that in any group the 125 can and will be closer than the 200. How is that confirmed? Shooting without sights has an inherent level of variance to it. That level is equal to or greater than the variance between weights with feathers.
I'm grateful to you for many things so don't get upset with me. We're traveling the same path. I just bet that, say in a shooting machine, you'd still see the impact difference and certainly the flight difference, minor as it may be. Clay Hayes posted a video just now on arrow spine which is a good watch.
But how much? When you shoot at 20 yards at a target, what is your average score? That will determine the size of your shot group. Most people have a grouping size of 8 to 12" at 20 yards, yes, the best have much smaller, I understand that, but we are talking about the regular Joe.
I score an an average of 7.2 on the WA Target and a 4.3 on the NFAA. That means my average grouping is 6" at twenty yards. Notice that all those arrows, even with different weights, spine, etc, all landed in that 6" area. In the end, I'm not consistent enough for it to make a difference to me and I'm willing to bet the same applies to the vast majority of archers out there.
I never said there is a flight difference. What I said or meant to convey is that just because you are shooting to the left or right, it does not mean your arrows are off. It could just as easily be you and most likely is.
OK, I can certainly go along with that. In essence that's what I was trying to say. So the observed reality is largely fiction because of our skill level shooting barebow...but the science/math is still fact. How's that? Enjoy the arrival of spring. Looking forward to seeing your adventures.
@@dmouse522
What science / math says that it will? Not being combative, but if there is something I missed, then I would like to know.
I can shoot arrows of various spines from my bows (and do) and still get the same scores, if the myth was so true, that would not happen.
Great vid. What would be awesome as well (obviously time consuming) would be to do the same test but with different size fletchings to see if that makes a big difference or not.
According to the engineers at Gold Tip and Easton that I spoke to, at that range it would not.
Archery 101 cool thank you.
It does apply to feathers also just does it more dramatically bare shaft
Sure it does
And do vanes work the same way?
Probably. Feathers and vanes generally do the same thing. Straighten the arrow in flight.
I'm not really sure how you could conclude that it was fiction with fetched arrows. Even though it was by a lesser degree; the heavier tipped arrows were consistently closer to the center point than the lighter ones. You also admitted that it was difficult not to look at the arrows that were already in the target, meaning that the the occasional heavy arrow being closer to the light arrow could have been completely shooter error. The only way to rule out shooter error is to build a job to hold the bow at the point of aim.
The rig will give you a "false" result. The Tradlab found that when comparing feather sizes, that they got one result for the rig and a very different result with done by a person. Unless you can have a shot cycle as consistent as a rig, then, yes it would apply. But we are nothing more than a walking variable machine. Every shot we take, has some degree of variance.
You also missed my point. I can on average, at twenty yards, shot a group that is 6". The arrows with the weaker / heavier weight and spine still falls into that 6" group average. So there is no difference. Now if you can shoot a 2 or even 3" group consistently at 20 yards, then yes, it might be true. If you shoot a group that is larger than 6" at twenty yards, then there is no difference.
Awesome, thanks 101.
If you don't mind me asking, what bow is that?
My 1968 Ben Pearson Javelina
So feathers hide the error to some extent, depending on bow/spine/distance variables. Still the 200grain point was the closest to target in both situations. That means that a well tuned shaft with feathers is still better than a wrong spined shaft with feathers. So you actually confirmed the fact. Also you have to factor in the size of the feathers .... 2" feathers will struggle with the wrong shaft while 4-5" feathers will be fine ...
Maybe that's another experiment ? off-spined arrow with 5-4-3-2" feathers ?
The 200 grain was within the same distance of the tape as the others. When shooting without sights and using split vision or instinctive there is an inherent degree of variance to your groups and that is exactly what the groupings showed. That all the areas consistently landed within that distance.
Based on what I saw in the video you seemed more accurate with the properly tuned arrow regardless of fletching. Obviously the fletching mitigates it, that's it's job. If you are aiming for a 10 at 20 yards and you hit a 5 that's a big deal. It's obviously worse to completely miss the target, but archery is a precision sport and even half an inch matters.
i have a question, is the same for 3 feathers arrows?
Do not know, my first guess would be yes, especially at 20 yards
Obviously, a former Airborne Soldier "Headspace and Timing!"
You use pretty big feathers, so I guess the difference could be split if using small target type fletchings? Very interesting, thanks for a clear demo :)
I would agree.
Maybe I need to watch this again, but let's say your bare arrows with 150 grain points hit the center each time. Add feathers to those same arrows and what would you expect to happen? Go off to the side?
No, The myth is: When a person post a picture of their grouping on a target, and the group is either to the left or right of the "X:, many comment (and I have heard and seen this on forums and in person) that the cause is that the arrows are too weak or stiff. I see and hear it all the time, but is that the reason? From what I have, it is not, it is more about the archer than the spine arrow.
I wanted to see if that was true and it is for bare arrows. But add feathers and as you seen, they "corrected" the flight big time.
So, if you are shooting off to the right or left, odds are, it is more due to you than your arrows.
Nice Work!
How are you so accurate without sighting right down the arrow? It looks like your string is beside your head, not where you can actually
Look right down the arrow. Thanks for your channel. Steve
The mind is amazing isn't it? The best way to describe what I'm doing is I can "Visualize" where ow will fly. Believe it or not, I can "see" the flight of the arrow.
Thats not it at all. The bare shaft tuning is for those who want to shoot broadheads. Its best to have your bow tuned to the best arrow and flying straight as possible with a bare shaft, but you will only see this when you add those front wings, called a broadhead to the front. You will not see much difference with just a fieldpoint. Most, but not everyone, but most who have trouble shooting broadheads at POA, once they bare shaft tune, they are dead on with their broadheads. Now some say they do not have that issue, and maybe they got lucky and did not have to bare shaft tune, or maybe its the style of blade on the broadhead, but I do know it happens to more shooters than not. So your video is obviously correct with just a field point. I have been shooting over 50 years, and like i said, most who have an issue with broadheads, it ends up being they have to bare shaft tune to find the proper arrow and point weight.
this is true though, i use a bow that shoots off center so i definetly notice when the shaft is to stiff because it has to wriggle around my shaft. u are using a classic bow with a cutout that shoots center so u will not notice it as much. only after many many many arrows i will say this shaft is to stiff or soft when i notice them going to the right or left.
Did you ask Grey Archer bout this? I’m kidding, I’m kidding!
A couple of comments for you...first, that's a lot of feather! It looks like 4x4" high profile feathers, which will stabilize an arrow with a field point, as you proved, that is way out of spec. I have to wonder what a broadhead would do that is that far out of spine. Second, it would be interesting to see how far the arrows are traveling before the feathers take over and make them behave. Would the stiffer arrows recover faster with the aid of the feathers? I don't know the answer, just pondering. Finally, it would appear you didn't have any severely underspined arrows in the mix. Could that change the outcome?
Way to go, Greg. Now you've taken away one more excuse for when I'm shooting really crappy! Just kidding. Great video as usual.
I spoke to several engineers at Gold Tip and Easton and they said something that really blew me away. They said most trad bows don't shoot far enough or fast enough for it to make enough of a difference.
@@TradArchery101 That might explain why their spine charts suck so bad for traditional bows. What I have found is that if your arrow is well tuned to your bow, the difference between three fletch and four is that you use one more feather per arrow with four fletch. On the other hand, feathers create drag, which helps stabilize even out of tune arrows, more feather = more drag = quicker stabilization. Wooden arrows are not by their very nature as consistent as aluminum or carbon, so many guys use 5 1/2" high back feathers to quickly iron out those inconsistencies. Being mostly human, archers add to that inconsistency, so most of us need feathers for that as well. World class archers are models of consistency, which has a great deal to do with their consistent high scores.
@@30cpe
I use four feathers for one reason only: They show up better on camera.
@@TradArchery101 That makes sense.
Thank you sir from the bottom of my heart👍 and it can all be said with in a sentence;
- In Greg we trust.🇺🇸
fletching may HIDE the problem, but there is still the variable. I would like to see the same tests done but with a bow shooting device where it is locked into position and the nock point and final string position are in the exact same positions for every shot. you should from a physics point still see a slight difference even with the feathers. as the arrow leaves it starts creating what most already know as archers paradox, the feathers/veins not only control the spin, pitch etc, but the create drag at the back of the arrow and act like breaks allowing the tip to become faster than the back of the arrow (when the paradox is created the back of the arrow is actually moving faster than the tip creating the arch in the arrow) slowing it down sooner is optimal. with a weaker spine and heavier tip it makes the pardox more drastic. now all this may make some thing "that just proves it" not entirely, there is STILL going to be a variable cause the paradox WILL happen unless you are shooting tungsten or titanium rods.... now the fully fletched arrows will have a much smaller variance than unfletched. but best bet for absolute precision of the arrow (not necessarily the archer, thats always an uncertainty) is to test as shown here with them unfletched, THEN add the fletchings which will allow the feathers/veins to do other work rather than just try to correct the one issue. (also spine alignment is important) all this is more of a 3-5 inch group or a 1-2 inch group thing. so not MAJOR unless you are OCD like myself.
I cannot agree on a shooting machine, why? Because an archer is the biggest variable there is! On each shot we make, we do something different. A shooting machine is not a reasonable or accurate simulation of an archer, so why use one?
As for the paradox, the flexing of the arrow is NOT the Archer's Paradox, sorry. Here is the correct definition of it:
"The archer's paradox is the phenomenon of an arrow traveling in the direction it is pointed at full draw, when it seems that the arrow would have to pass through the starting position it was in before being drawn, where it was pointed to the side of the target. The bending of the arrow when released is the explanation for why the paradox occurs and should not be confused with the paradox itself. Flexing of the arrow when shot from a modern 'centre shot' bow is still present and is caused by a variety of factors, mainly the way the string is deflected from the fingers as the arrow is released."
That is why a bow cut past center, does NOT have Archer's Paradox, neither does a compound or crossbow. Having OCD myself, I'm a stickler for what is and is not Archer's Paradox.
You like some others are speaking and thinking in absolutes. I do not. I cannot, have not and most likely will not see any discernible difference, why? Because i have a 6" shot group at 20 yards and the variance between a stiffer and weaker arrow is not enough to show at that range. Now, will it show at 50 yards or more? Maybe, but I, and most archers do not shoot that distance.
@@TradArchery101 I used too shoot regularly between 50-120ish yards, but I mention the contraption to take the human variable out of the equation. the reason is once you have the most reliably repeatable bow and arrow combination then a person can work on themselves and their form being repeatable KNOWING what to expect of their equipment. the same thing goes for long range rifle shooting, once you have matched your ammunition loads, barrel harmonics, etc. then you can work on form, breathing, trigger pressure, gauging wind, coriolis effect. but if you change variables with the rifle and ammo itself or had something happening with the barrel seating then the tool that you are using is unreliable. so variances from one shot to the next the archer will try to compensate for the last shot, which may have not been the equipment, but rather their grip pressure, string release, a minor tremble in their hand they didnt notice. back to the long range rifle shooting, once I can remove all variables then I can see things like "I was 10 inches left, what did *I* do to cause it?" and not have to guess "was it me or the equipment?"
in archery you have several things that even with centershot bows will create the archers paradox. now even as your video on AP said (I liked your explanation of it there btw), newtons law comes into play, if the arrow is not perfectly true, if the bow is not perfectly center shot aligned, if the nock point of the string is not perfectly parallel it will cause the oscillation to happen. everything has to be perfectly trued up to stop this from happening. a similar thing happens in rifle shooting, where the barrel actually flip flops (flexes/oscillates) around a centerline, thats when you adjust bullet weight, powder load and burn speed so when it leaves it does so in a repeatable way that has the least amount of course alteration when leaving the barrel. and a simple leaning into it to hard or on synthetic stocks to tight of a grip on the fore stock can effect the harmonics.
I had that very issue on one of my rifles, but because I was shooting it myself, I couldnt get the sight to hold a zero in and make the same shot twice. I would be 18 inches left, I would adjust and then shoot 35 to the left or 25 to the right. it was because one of the anchor/brace points for the barrel had broke and the barrel was shifting around and causing the harmonics to be off. until it is fixed it will never be reliable. if I had it in a rifle brace I could have found this issue MUCH sooner, rather than me trying to compensate for it.
its not that I dont like what you've done, it does show a reasonable pattern, just saying it would be nice to see a more exacting degree. yes partially is alignment, but also the lighter the tip the less it will do this, the arrow spine stiffness is a way to artificially correct that. now I am not asking you to do such a lengthy setup, a true scientific approach would take hundreds of shots with each spine weight and tip weight and making sure all their spine stong/weak sides match etc. lots of math and recordings. just saying I would LIKE to see it (somewhere)
@@brettleisy356
I’m well versed in firearms, having used and still use them for the past 35 plus years at work and in the service. In all courses, the first thing you are taught is form. In basic, in the service (I was Airborne Infantry), we did the Dime Washer exercise for a full week before we fired a single round.
In Archery, every instructor will tell you work form first, then tune. Not vice versa. You cannot have a good tune unless you have proper form. They teach using the Acronym of RAT, Repeatable Shot Cycle, Aim and finally Tune.
I still question it. Let me ask you, how big was your shot groups at 50 yards or 100 plus? Wide weren’t they?
Check out the Lancaster classic, the best shooters and they are trying to hit a target the size of a dime (17mm) at only 18 meters, and yet they do not hit it all the time, heck not even most of the time and they have the best equipment and form out there and they are not even consistent enough. That is why a machine is not indicative. If the best out there cannot group tight enough for it to matter, how will it for you? Nope, to me, it is just something for you to worry about, that you don’t need to. Now, I’m not saying tune is not important. I’m saying that if you make your arrow “stiffer/weaker” (all within reason of course), you are not going see any significant change in your shooting.
Sorry, but nothing you have wrote has changed my view or opinion.
Center shot bows will not have it (Archers Paradox). Arrows must oscillate, basic physics, but it is not the Archers Paradox. Too many have corrupted the mean into that, but that does not make it true.
I shot plenty of arrows and when you see a consistent pattern, that is when I stop and call it. I shot all the arrows with the same weight and recorded where they hit. I then shot them one at a time with different weights and recorded it and finally I shot them mixed and recorded it and I no measurable difference that could not be accounted for by form variance.
Like I said you want absolute, but there is none here. Too many variables to take into account.
No one is a machine and no one can or will duplicate the results of once on a consistent basis.
@@TradArchery101 80% of my shots were within a 10 inch pattern. I practiced until I was sure of it being reasonably consistent, as I was using my bow for hunting a large portion of the time I wanted to ensure a heart shot (approx 10 inches for a grown dear's heart)
I understand the imperfections of machines and manufacturing, I was only suggesting removing a variable. you can have the greatest form in the world, but if the tuning is not proper or erratic (mixed arrows and tip weight etc) you will never pull in the group size.
its like when I went down to buy a new driver to add to my golf bag, I hit a few SMASHING shot straight down the middle. took it to the course and couldnt hit the fairway. went to a gold instructor and swung a few dozen times and even tho I dont have a "perfect" swing it was very repeatable and other clubs seemed fine. so he took the club in and did a quick test to see if the spine was mis aligned. not only wasnt it aligned it seemed to not have one and it would just go all over. 85 dollars later and new shaft in the club and I was hitting the fairways again.
now if that problem wasnt corrected I would have been making constant adjustments trying to fix the problem and my form would actually get WORSE as I would constantly be changing my stance. swing plane, alignment of head at address, weight shifting.
an archers, long range rifleman's, and a golfer's accuracy and precision have things in common. (even down to playing pool) form will limit the equipment and equipment will limit the from. we can not out of the box fix form, that is a learned thing, but we CAN make sure our equipment is set up properly. I am not saying spend 2 grand on a bow and arrow set up,
this is true in many aspects of life. I dont care how good the nascar driver is, you put him in a gocart he wont be beating the average joe in a race. there is only so much skill and form can make up for. put average joe and the nascar driver in the same vehicle and the professional will humiliate the average joe, but now the ceiling of the average joe to get better and is raised.
if this were not true no advancements would ever be made to archery gear cause it literally wouldnt make any difference. I would just go grab a stick, put a string on it and shoot smaller sticks with it. pro golfers would still use hickory sticks and wooden heads, etc.
my rifle once fixed will be 3/4" MOA @100, so anything more than that will be an error on my part. last rifle I had that shot like that I shot 1.5" MOA which means 3/4" was my errors. but if the rifle was 6" MOA I would never be able to improve past that 6" group and would only lead to frustration. and no amount of drills would EVER fix it.
I do like this video cause it explains things to a lot of people that otherwise wouldnt understand certain principles. and you at some point will be buying new arrows including the people watching this video. and a little testing can help. I know at the cabelas here I can test shafts etc, and I can even test without the fletchings and find what is the best raw shaft/tip combo, then the appropriate veins.
you are very correct in that a persons form will alter things, string release torquing the string, anchor point repeat-ability, etc. but removing those from testing and physics are figured, then the archer can work on form in a more productive manner. ESPECIALLY when learning basics.
I'll take this back to when I first started around 8... my parents bought a cheap archery bow and a bunch of random practice arrows out of a bin. went to lessons, learned a few things. but I saw very little improvement. I was still missing the target at times no matter how much I adjusted and changed. but I REALLY wanted to learn. my parents broke down and got me an actual set and some extra arrows that were the same that came with the bow. MAJOR difference. I was hitting the target regularly and after a couple hours of practicing I was inside of 4 rings pretty consistently. a couple of weeks later and practicing 2-3 hours a day I was starting to stack arrows to the point I was having to replace arrows more often as I was breaking them. no I never "robin hooded" an arrow, but not for the lack of trying. some of it was down to odds as I was lazy and didnt want to walk and grab three arrows every time so I would shoot 8-12 at a time. but that other bow and misc arrows, when ever I took it out to use it was all on target... but that's about all that could be said for it.
Brett Leisy
10” at 100 with a recurve? Sights? Not barebow.
Your example is not the norm. That first bow did not have arrows even close to being correct. I and most recurve shooters do. The video is about if stiffer or weaker arrows will consistently fly off to one side or the other. That is what I tested. And my conclusion is that it does not. Not given the normal variance the we have. I based it on many “experts” telling people on FB and on the forums that the reason they are shooting to the left (for example) is because their arrow is too stiff or too weak. That is nonsense. And all my test confirmed that it is nonsense. Again, this is not about shooting with a 20 pound bow and 340 spines. It is about having a reasonable setup.
I also disagree with drills not correcting things. Been doing drills all my life and if they didn’t help, then why did I get better because of them and why does every top coach / instructor use them on a regular basis? Why? Because they work.
Was Jimmy Joe Knowitall was your best impression of Paul Helms? Cuz... I'm not impressed. I'm just kidding Greg
I could nevber matched that silky smooth voice of Paul's
Well, the higher spined arrows are still going to the right with feathers, just to a lesser degree than the bare shaft.
So the "myth" is correct. But it is clear that feathers help mitigate the effect, though.
It may appear that way on first impression. In all my testing, the arrows landed within a 6" area of the "X", otherwise known as the four ring on an NFAA 300 target.
I even tracked where they hit, using a grid square I imposed over it. There was no consistent result by the different weights, no one type of arrow would land in the same spot on a consistent enough basis for me to say that.
What it did show, is that I, and not the arrow has more of an impact on shooting left or right of the target. To say it is due to the arrow, is most likely wrong, it is you, the archer who is most likely making the arrow miss to the left or right.
@@TradArchery101 there was a clear correlation to the shots you showed in the video. The 200 grain and the 800 spine arrows were closer to center on both the fletched and bare shaft arrows. The more spined the arrows, the more right they went. It's just that the fletched went right to a much less degree than the bare shafted, but they still went right of the lower spine.
So basically fletchings mute the effect, but don't remove it.
Btw, I enjoyed the video
I understand what you are saying. But what you did not see, and I did not show was all the other rounds I shot. While, the 200 Grain Point and the 800 Spine flew better. When I shot at a 300 and a 450 target, that did not bear out. I kept getting the same scores and the arrows were not consistently in one spot to confirm it.
The one really comes down to how tight of a group you can shoot. Me, like I said, my group is around 6", with a group that big, there was no appreciable difference. I could shoot the 600's with a 125 grain point and maintain my scores.
Now if you have a group smaller than mine, then I could see it. If you have a group larger than mine, then no way. I can see that I did not do an adequate job of describing this and for that I thank you.
LOL Jimmy Jow Know it all, we don't need him at our range here in Thailand.
If you are a hunter, and your feathers get wet (because it's not always great weather) the fletchings stop working nearly as well. In that situation you would wish you had calibrated for spine stiffness.
I question that. What is the average distance most trad hunters shoot at? 15 and under. It will not make that much of a difference.
I have shot in the pouring rain with no problem in a shoot and in hunting.
@@TradArchery101 Do you doubt that wet fletchings make them ineffective? Or just doubt that ineffective fletchings would make a significant impact? Out west in the open country where I live shots are very often 30+ yards, so if there is an impact on flight it would really hamper your ability to shoot that elk, for instance.
I could have sworn I saw a slow motion video once of an arrow with wet fletchings, but after a long search I couldn't find it. So I guess I don't have proof. You could make proof to the contrary though, I don't mind being proven wrong, and it could make a cool video for you to shoot arrows of differing spines with wet fletchings at different ranges and show the results.
Christopher Rowley
30 yards? Using a compound bow are you?
Check out this video of us shooting a 3D course in the pouring rain. With no affect on our arrows. Have done it many times.
ruclips.net/video/nEqEypdzRdQ/видео.html
made alot sence : tyvm give it streight real talk !
Great video.
Yes very good info thaks
Great video sir thank u.....
Although feathered seemed to correct this, shooting at longer range would have a different effect.
Pattyboybx
I believe I said that
Great point! No pun intended!
I have always wondered...I shoot a compound bow with an assortment of spines (feathered and vaned), and usually shoot a pretty tight group from 20 yards out to 40 yards. 340 spine Carbon to 2218 Aluminum, even with tips ranging from 100 to 150 grains, and it made me wonder about all of this "spine" concern. Indeed, the feathers or vanes cover a multitude of variables. Great test and marksmanship!
What a great video
As for test No. 1, yes, there is no arguing - a fact! But at the expense of the second ... What is the fiction? After all, the same two arrows as in the first test (p2,800 Spine, 125gn & gt 600 with 200gn point) showed the best result, showed the best result in test No. 2. The rest were simply better stabilized and horizontal scatter was minimized. Test number 2 fact? I think)))
Exactly, the stiff spined arrows still shot right. Both myths are fact not fiction.
So, what you would do is shoot bare shaft untill you tuned your arrows to your bow. Once perfectly tuned ... you would put feathers on it. Now you have a perfectly tuned arrow, spine, weight and lenght to your bow.