Thank you Gregg! I was specifically looking for someone that tested this after a discussion I had on the subject and only found people repeating past "known" information. Your results are actually what I expected. My explanation is that the 1 inch decrease in the distance the arrow is being pulled is compensated by the slight increase in draw weight at every inch of draw so that the area under the draw curve characteristic ( energy) is not significantly different. In addition my guess is that a lower AMO bow like a 48" magnum would be more significantly effected by a one inch change because of the geometry.FrankieBob
I started archery 11 months ago and everything I have learned has been from the internet meaning archery discussion boards and you tube videos. I was told the following. A taller brace height will: 1. Increase draw weight 2. Decrease arrow speed 3. Soften the dynamic spine of the arrow goes right A shorter brace height will: 1. Decrease draw weight 2. Increase arrow speed 3. Stiffen the dynamic spine of the arrow goes left The only real difference I notice with the brace height is the bow is quieter with an 8" BH than a 7 1/2 BH. I have a Samick Sage 35# limbs and use a Flemish fast flight string
thanks, I often have thought about what you have found out. You are a clever , skilled and intelligent guy. greetings from Germany and merry christmas to you......
Wow, reading all these comments reminds me of the presidential politics; so much arguing. Greg is only pointing out that there is no seat of the pants performance gain from 1-2 fps, not that there is NO gain. Our AVERAGE "performance" is so controlled (read that as varied) by our shot cycle that a 1 inch brace height difference will never be noticed by the average shooter. I shoot a black widow longbow and I stay within the mfr recommendations and only adjust my brace height to control noise and string slap. Remember, archery is supposed to be fun, and I am always smiling when I watch Greg's' videos, and you should be too.
When I made my first bow, I tested this and I got about 2lb per added inch of brace height. I would expect that to vary with limb strength. I couldn't test speed, but logically, higher brace height would give more static force, but lower would give you more efficient transfer of power. Tuning for low noise and handshock will probably get you right at the sweet spot between the two, since noise and handshock, represent lost energy.
Thanks Greg, it's what I thought. I have had some tell me changing brace high will change the pounds you pull. If it's say 50# at 28" then no matter what you put your BH at its still 50# at 28". As for the speed changing I don't see how if the weight stayed the same. Thank you again . Alan
Nice one! It's always good to stir the pot by actually demonstrating what you're discussing. You can't beat experimentation - it's the way we test the world around us and grow as a result.
Gregg nice video here. Great topic. The longer the arrow is on the string at release effects the transfer of energy off of the riser/rest. Tip weight effects how the arrow and shaft flex thru release and brace height changes left and right flight innthat way i think. Sweet spot the brace height tuning for comfort and feel in the shot. IMO
The longer time the string pushes the arrow, the more transfer of energy to it. In low pound kid bows I noticed if the string was short, it shot very smooth but slow. But with the string longer and a lower brace height, it was louder but a lot faster. Same principle behind long vs short barrels.
@@TradArchery101 true. When I did my testing on the small fiberglass bow I had some extreme brace height differences. But I would think it's not about time as it is about distance like a rifle barrel vs. A handgun barrel. If the string pushes say... one third the distance farther, that is energy goes in the arrow. It would seem that having one third more time and distance pushing would matter. It really did on the little bow. It was so smooth with a high brace but weak etc. I grew up instinctive shooting and to me a bare bow means primitive. By the time you get into all these new exact numbers, weights, measurements and hundreds of products, it sort of loses the magic for me. A long range shot is usually only for targets if you are a humane hunter...or starving I guess lol. I found that instead of thinking I never learned to shoot a proper way and that I must have tons of bad habits, it's all about practice and being comfortable with your gear. If you see Lars Andersen (stunning must see snap shooting), Comanche archery, and Ryan Gill at Hunt Primitive channel (22 inch arrows on 60lb self bow) it seems my way was simply the primitive or natural way. Shoot 10,000 arrows and get used to your gear and will work. Snap shooters say the way to start a new archer is with moving targets. This develops the instinct to triangulate. we don't aim a baseball, a whip, wild west quick draw etc. But we still hit wit pin point accuracy with practice. A bow is no different. The ability to triangulate and throw accurately separates us and evolved us from all other animals.i apologize for the book but figured you and other archers are the kind to read and want to know or be reminded etc.. Thanks for the reply and all the best! Mike.
The change of length in the power stroke is the mechanical principle behind this theory. But I tend to agree with you. I ran some chrono/brace height tests today (for the second time). I first did this about 20 years ago when I used a chronograph as part of my practice for shooting the York Round with an English Longbow (it worked, raised a County Record that had stood for 13 years). A change in speed only becomes noticeable or significant if the change in brace height is quite large (this is what we should be looking at - how large a change in brace height before it matters). In the context of a small change in brace height of only an inch or so, most folks will regularly shoot with a greater variation in cast (due to inconsistencies in draw-length, loose. rhythm, tempo and holding time) that might accrue from a trivial increase in cast. IMO more significant than a trivial increase in cast is the potential for a deterioration in recovery from paradox with an increase in arrow offset. Shooting an English longbow or a primitive self-bow I run a slightly high brace height which gives me better recovery from paradox with my prefered spine and can obtain a solution that gives me a set-up that will shoot my arrow (in lateral terms) exactly where it is pointed at full draw. This is my preference, a bow that is no more than 1" wide at the pass, suitably radiused, giving an angle of offset at brace height less than 5 degrees (not including an allowance for shaft width) but with a brace height of 7 1/4". My problem is trying to have a rational exchange of views on bow set-up & geometry with an aficianado of low braced, wide handled flatbows. Here the concept of applying some basic trigonometry is a probably a big ask.
Interesting, my instinct tells me that a higher brace height would give a shorter power stroke, ie the arrow is in contact with the string (and therefore being pushed) for less time. I would therefore expect the higher brace height to give a slower arrow speed. However I bow to your seemingly thorough experiment, I learn stuff every day. Thanks Greg
Mark, That is what many think. But then you also have to look at it like this; How much difference is there between the two in the amount of time the arrow is in contact with the string? A millisecond? So how much more or less energy can be transferred in that Millisecond?
i think its only relevant for compounds, cause if you have a 5 inch brace height vs a 6 inch brace height you actually pull the string an inch further. at 30 inch draw length it would be 25vs24 inches. and a harsh compound can use this inch more where on the other hand a traditional bow does not have the tension on the first inches of the drawcycle to make a real difference
Greg, As always great videos and information. I watched your RUclips video talking about brace height where are you did some testing to see if the speed of a bow changed by changing the brace height. You found out no it didn’t for the most part. I agree as well. But the one thing you failed to mention, I think unless I missed it, was that brace height it was more an adjustment of tuning that effects fishtail and or vibration more than anything else. As we know brace height determines how long that string will stay with that arrow. And along with that goes more or less vibration and more or less sound as the string contacts recurve limbs if we’re talking about a recurve bow of course. Which you used in your test thing. Generally when brace height is decreased to low that string is staying with the aero too long and will result in more noise as the string slaps back into the recurve limbs AND generally MORE vibration as a end result.
If your Bow Brace is too small you might hit your wrist and the string will slap the inner bow .. when the brace is right you may find the proper poundage at certain length the proper size string is recommended and your brace should be more or less perfect but variations on weather elongate or shorten the string that is when the brace needs work .
It depends on the bow. The issue is duration of acceleration. Power is force over time, so if your projectile is accelerated by the same force, for a longer period, then youll get higher velocity. With modern, precision manufactured bows, you wont get much difference, because theyre already optimized.
If the brace height is altered it will alter the initial amount of weight required to start making the limbs move. However the draw length will stay the same so the total draw weight stays the same. To increase the draw weight with same draw length you would need to increase the thickness of riser so the pressure point of the hand and measuring point is further back. This would also increase the speed. A large alteration is the only way brace height would really make a big difference to speed but what bow has a 3" tolerance between top and bottom brace height.
Very good video and demonstration. Still, what about different styles of bows? My logic says that a 4 bend bow (scythian and mongolian horsebow, for instance) is more susceptible to alterating draw weight and arrow speed.
The question would be how much of a change in Brace height? Most bows only recommend no more than an 1" difference. That 1" will not make much of a difference regardless of style. Go past that, then maybe.
@@TradArchery101 I agree because new styles of bows are all the same recurve tips, but when talking about historical bows, it should be different. An English longbow should have a negative impact when increasing brace height, but a Korean horsebow, which has a high bow length to string length ratio, should be a positive difference. Still, useless info cause it's all in the past.
My Hoyt Horizon with 36# limbs runs 35.6 to 37.9 minimum to maximum brace height using a digital scale and draw rack. (Recommended is 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 for the PSA limbs I have.) Right ON 36# at 7 7/8 brace height / 28 in draw, which is where it’s the most quiet. (My personal draw is 29 inches.) Didn’t do a chrono but there was definitely a notable difference in arrow energy, front to back.
Je ne parle pas anglais c'est donc en français que je vous dis comment j'ai augmenté la puissance de certains de mes arcs de +10. livres. J'ai collé du vinyle sur les branches, vinyle pour tableau de bord de voiture qui s'étire et revient a sa forme initiale. Voilà,, pour la vitesse et la force cinétique je ne sais pas.
I read a lot of these comments. I think some people slept through physics class. I am with you. A new string a little longer or shorter is nothing to worry about.
I think it also depends on the bow. The idea behind it is that the lower brace hight means the arrow is being accelerated for longer so theoretically there is more nrg being stored in the limbs with a lower brace hight because the displacement of the limbs is greater over (in theory ) the same time thus more nrg
All sounds good in theory, but if you look at how I tested (Within the manufactures recommend settings), then one inch is not going to make a difference.
It maybe fiction, but I seem to be more Accurate with a little more brace height than before I'm shooting 8.25 brave height and I love it. By the way after looking at your videos I own 4 ben pearson bows two Colts 45, 40@62" one Special 45@ 58" the 58 " is my favorite and one 66"@40# thank for your help, I'm shooting great now!!
It makes sense to me that there is some, albeit little, increase in speed at a higher brace height as energy may be lost in the form of vibration and noise. It is too little to make much difference though.
Logic path from a new archer, but old lead-slinger. Brace height differences provide a "slightly" greater or lesser pre-load prior to the draw. However, the draw weight at full draw is the same isn't it, regardless of brace height? The difference being the point at which the string lets go of the nock on release? The greater the brace height, the earlier the nock is released from the string? Does this mean greater brace height reduces the length of string travel before release? Therefore, greater brace height equates to (slightly) lower release velocity? As a %age of the overall draw length, the brace height difference is surely insignificant to velocity, more important as regards handling quality & slap noise? Help me grasp this! Thanks.
Ok, just been thinking this through for a second or two, if the brace height is 1/2" greater over a 20" draw, that's a 2% increase at full draw? Not going to make a massive difference to velocity...?
The problem here is that those arguing against my conclusion did not listen as the why I made that decision. Here is why I made it: 1) Most manufacturers call for only a 1" range in brace height (Long Bows generally 6 to 7 and Recurves 7.5 to 8.5") with such a small difference how much of an increase in speed will you get and will it be enough to affect the arrow, will it improve performance? Yes and no, it will increase the speed, but no the performance, It will not change my GAP, it will not shoot farther. why? Point number 2. 2) The increase in speed is no more than the average variation in FPS that most archers get from shot to shot because of variations in their shot cycle. Most archer have between 3 and 7 FPS difference between shots which is more than the increase due to brace height.. 3) So, in the end, Is that extra one or maybe two FPS worth the extra time and effort? Is it worth the hand shock? Since you can get just as much of an increase by focusing on good form, I would say "No" and i stand by that. If it were wrong, then all of the top archers would tell you to use as big of a brace height as possible and yet, you do not hear that. Did that help clear it up for you?
I think you might get more significant results if you were to take your same measurement in 3 conditions: 1) at the middle of the recommended so 8.0 inches, 2) just short of the recommended height @ 7.25 inches and 3) @ 8.75 inches... For a more proper test, you'd want to have some type of mechanical set up to take out any influence the individual archer would have on the shots. In your testing you just measured at the lower and higher ends of the recommended brace height, so your bow is still within the recommended height range. I think you'd find that outside of the recommended range, you'd see significant drop-off in performance either in arrow speed or accuracy. I don't think the 'recommended brace height' is only about silencing your bow string. If you're in a tree stand and you take a shot and miss even with the most silent bow, the impact of the arrow on the ground and the startling of the intended quarry's running off is going to be a much bigger impact on sound than the sound of an 'untuned' bow. I would think that for best performance of the arrow, you want the bowstring to launch it over the best distance of travel before loosing the arrow. With a taller brace height you might get a bit quicker bowstring movement but the string will hit its limit of travel quicker. With a more shallow brace height you might get more travel of the bowstring but at the bottom of the string's power stroke it will have less power behind it and more likely to put some type of unwanted dynamic against the nock of the arrow.
@@TradArchery101 Try shooting an arrow and then add or subtract 5 twists to change the brace hight and see what happens to the arrow. Frank Pearson believes that it will move the impact left or right.
@@Wherryish That is what I did and there was no difference. The thing that many who say that it does matter don’t say is that it only shows up at 45 plus yards. Most trad archers don’t shoot much past 20 yards.
My understanding is that it's supposed to create most energy at optimum brace height I've never seen any difference myself only cause the bow to shoot smoother and quiter I'm with Gregg on this one
I liked it gregg, thought it would be a slightly bigger difference than your tests. But it really wasn't. very fair test procedure. now on kenitic energy, would a larger diameter arrow vs smaller diameter have any difference in penetration, say in a hunting scenario. I would yes at certain distances - as far as the arrow dropping off before hitting the target. Thanks J.Ray
i am not nearly as familiar with recurves as with longbows so i will trust your findings on that. i will assume it may not be too different with longbows but i have always heard that a lower brace height would make the arrow fly faster. i always assumed it would be because the longer the string, the lower the brace height, ...the further forward and closer to straight the limbs can return. theoretically the closer to "resting" the limbs can return the more stored potential energy they can impart to the string and thus the arrow. I don't have chronos or draw weight scales or any of that so I don't know if a lower brace height did too much for the speed of my arrow. it seemed faster to the eye, and sounded like it was striking the target louder, but what I do KNOW a lower brace height will do is slap the string into your wrist every time no matter how thick your shooting guard and no matter how you hold the bow! (well as low as I had mine set: about a 4 inch brace) I thought about trying to add a metal plate and a tad more padding to my vambrace but i worried that if the string were to catch on the edge of the metal plate no amount of bullnosing its edges would prevent it damaging the string. so I just went back to a higher brace height.
The difference between long bows and recurves is not that great. I'm not saying there is NO difference, just that there is no performance advantage if you stay within the manufacturer recommended settings which are almost always within one inch of each other. If you go beyond that, its up to you, but I cannot (for liability reasons) and will not mention, recommend doing so.
I would like too. I need to find a better way of testing. Right now, with my normal shot cycle I can get anywhere from a three to five fps difference between shots.
Too much variability in the testing methodology. Also, the bow may not be able to capitalize on a decreased brace height. Testing more bows would've helped. Was the nock height adjusted for the different brace heights so that the nock height was the same, but only the brace height changed?
+MrAngryTwinkie You cannot eliminate variables, only minimize them. If it does not work on all bows and only on select bows then it is fiction. The test was conducted on multiple bows of different design and build. There was no significant increase in arrow speed on any of them. And yes, the nock was adjusted. Thanks for watching.
+Archery 101 Not at all. You may be running into design or material limitations, thus under certain circumstances, a lower brace height may equal higher speed. Does high vs low brace height influence speed on a D shaped longbow? Traditional Recurve? Carbon Fiber recurve? Etc. Fact vs Fiction is nice for a short video, but like many things in life, the truth is more cumbersome.
Certain circumstances is an exception not a rule. The test was run on the bow in the video, a fiber glass bow (long & Recurve), A Longbow and a TD, the results were all in line with each other. There was no gain in speed that couldn't be explained otherwise.
+Archery 101 Brace height can *absolutely* impact the speed of the arrow. Put it at a 6" brace height and put it at a 9.5" brace height and retest. Interestingly enough, too low of a brace height will also rob of you speed. Reasons: Altered geometry. Changed wavelengths or timing of an arrow's flex. So Part 1 of the answer is, yes, altering brace height does impact speed and may increase it depending it on where you start. That said,it is likely that the manufacturer has recommended a brace height within the bow's sweet spot. Given accurate enough testing equipment and methodologies, you'll absolutely see a difference in FPS. Part 2 of the answer is -- it may not be PRACTICALLY significant within the Goldilocks zone.
The video is about staying within manufacturers settings. Within those settings the difference is insignificant and does not improve performance to such a degree that it matters.
I did have an affect, just not enough of one to make a performance difference. You can get better results (most people see a three to five fps variation per shot) by perfecting your release and making it more consistent.
A lower brace height absolutely increases arrow speed due to the longer power stroke. This is exemplified by medieval crossbows. Some handheld crossbows were up to ~1,200 lbs of draw weight. However, the power stroke is so small at only about 4.5-6.5 inches that they impart about the same energy to the bolt as a heavy longbow would to an arrow. Its all about how long the arrow is in contact with the string. Obviously, this difference can be quite small. Even in Toxophilus written in 1545 by Roger Ascham it is stated that a lower brace height increases cast, and a higher brace height is helpful for accurate shooting.
Drew thank you for watching. Did you hear where I said it does not make a difference in the one inch range that the manufacturers recommend? I did not test a crossbow or any medieval bow. The video was about current bows made today.
Archery 101 Hello, I understand that you didn't test any crossbows, but the principle is exactly the same. I was just trying to bring an extreme example to the table to illustrate my point. There is mechanically no difference between medieval or modern trad bows. You are correct in saying that within a one inch range the difference is small, but there is a difference. Like I said before it all comes down to power stroke. All else being equal, a 22 inch power stroke will shoot faster than a 20 inch power stroke . Thanks
The difference in speed of 1" in brace height is not noticeable and very hard to differentiate using a chronograph. Why? Because the average archer hs between three and seven fps difference per shot. Changing the brace height one inch does not increase the speed more than that. The difference in speed can easily be attributed to variance in the shot cycle. There is no performance advantage to changing the brace height one inch. That was my point and i stand by that.
Archery 101 I get what you're saying. But, there is a performance increase. That said, I'm not really arguing that its worth it to make a change to your brace height for this reason alone. Maybe it is less prevalent with lighter bows were the release can be finicky.
I tested it on my 47 pounder, my 38 pounder and my 25 pounder. I could find no consistent performance increase. In my testing, without even changing the brace height the variance in speed was between 3 and 5 fps. Now, by changing the brace height, you can also induce more noise and hand shock. It is not worth it. It gives you no performance advantage that is worth the hand shock or increase in sound. It is actually easier to simply pull back a little more, focus on you back and reach full draw to get the same results.
Post edited and corrected :) Thanks for sharing this Greg. Interesting test you did there. So if brace height does not affect speed or drawweight - what effect does it have on the arrow fligh if any? My observations through time: if I am warmed up and consistent in the shot cycle and well zero'ed in on a ~30 yd target with an 8.5" BH, going down to 7.5" BH would immediately cause my arrows to hit 1 - 2 inch higher time after time. So while speed and draw weight might remain consistent it seems that the amount of kinetic energy absorbed by the arrow is being increased by the longer string travel. You won't see this in a chrony or with a scale and I understand this was not the objective of this video, striclty speaking. But archers might draw the wrong conclusions here - if BH is only to accomplish a more comfortable draw or release and BH changes up to a full 1" don't make any difference, then why are people crying about Dacron string creep - there is no difference anyway right? :)
The arrows hitting higher, That could be because when you change your brace height, you nock moves. Did you adjust your nock point? I do not believe that there is no performance advantage to be gained by worrying about the brace height. Adjusting the brace height is more about "quieting" the bow and reducing hand shock. Like I said a 1" difference is not going to give you that much more performance. Why do people cry about dacron? Simply, because they have to re-adjust their brace height again and their nock point. For them it is an inconvenience issue, not a performance issue..
Ok, coming to think of it I agree with you on both counts. The nock point certainly moved, even though it seemed to be so minimal to me at the time that I didn't pay much attention. Not a very scientific approach, admittedly. Shooting 30yds might increase the "minimal" to 1-2 inch of course. So in that case the BH setting is really a parameter mainly to increase individual comfort. Live and learn.
I do not deny that it increases speed. What I said is that the one inch most bows have, will not give you any real performance advantage. Most people fluctuate three to five fps on every shot. You can get more from making that steady than by worrying about your brace height. Here is the kicker, I rarely check mine (one my string stretches). I just string and go most of the time.
Billy Evans Absolutely, I tweek my left & right shooting with minor brace height adjustments. Some days I may be shooting just a bit left or right consistently...brace height adjustment makes the bow shoot where I am looking.
your finding make sense to me. think about it, set you bow at min brace height and then just pull the string back 1". your limbs do not move . you could have measured tip to tip at both heights and that would have shown your speed and poundage would not be affected. If you change say 2"+ I would think yes there will be difference but then again that much of a change means your bow is not tuned at all.
Testing extremes only gives you no idea how things are going in between. If energy stored in arrow is like upside down U (tops in exact middle) then you can't detect that by measuring just both extremes. It would be beter to have at least three measurements or 5 to be more acurate.
Under perfect circumstances, with perfect measurement equipment, and perfect draw, you would probably recognise a little increase. But I think the effect is too small on a recurve to measure it without a shooting device. Arrow speed is gained by draw length and force per length unit. On a recurve the force in those last inch close to the brace height is very low. on the othrr hand, adding a quarter inch of overdraw at maximum force will outweigh all effects from brace height change.
here's a question. when shooting a bow with different brace heights the same amount of energy is stored and released over the power stroke. brace height is negligible because the arrow leaves the string at the same time regardless.... but what if you use a string stop? I think the extra inch of power stroke would make a difference then. but only because the arrow is leaving the string at a different spot.
+Paintballinmike1 I believe the big key which many missed is the "within manufacturer's recommendations". How much of a gain can you get from one inch? As for the string stop, interesting concept, but since I know nothing about compounds I couldn't answer that.
+Archery 101 I have a string stop on my long bow, and i my brace height can be as high as 7.5 nches and as low as 6 inches. marginal differences in speed = significant kinetic energy in ft lbs because arrows are such heavy projectiles.
+Archery 101 sure, take 2 shots with the same weight arrow. 1st shot the bow is at 7.5inch brace height with string silencers, second shot bow is at 6" brace height, no string silencers plus a good string stop. shooting medium weight 550grain arrows. lets say first shot chronos 170fps your putting out just over 35fpe and .414momentun, second shot 180fps. with a slight 10 fps increase (let's say over a 1.5inch powerstroke) your at just under 40 fpe and your momentum is .439. I think that would be considered a significant performance increase behind a single bevel broadhead.. high FOC ;) as far as lighter 3d arrows, it just equates to a slightly flatter trajectory. In hunting it *could* be the difference between a broken arrow and a pass through. (not to mention the flatter trajectory is always a welcome bonus). I agree completely that limbs cannot store more energy unless they are further flexed, but if fastflight strings can more efficiently transfer the energy stored in the limbs. then why not a lower brace height with a string stop. with 28" peak draw, the powerstroke has a definitive end at a 6" brace height. with a 7.5 inch brace height, the powerstroke is not as efficient without a stop because the arrow is somewhat slowed down when the nock is still on the string past the brace height. the brace height difference is negligible without a stop, but with one I think a more efficient transfer of energy is made. I love your videos and highly respect your opinion, I am truly enjoying this conversation.
Nice job. I always wondered about that, now I know. One thing I also don't know is why bows have a max and min brace height. Is it a performance issue or a safety issue?
+Arturo Flores That is in the works. We stumbled onto that while filming a shoot. We noticed that what we hear and what the camera picks up is very different, we also noticed that when filming downrange (the camera out in front of us) it was a different sound and from the side and rear. I'm currently playing with it and the testing gear. It is interesting to say the least.
I guess the only real factor is. lets say at 20 yards if we can get a very consistent shot With the same bow, arrow, and aiming point how much will reduced arrow speed change the arrows accuracy sense the arrow speed will be pretty close to being the same. Unless you really shoot a lot would most people ever notice any change in accuracy..
Ewen little more info that i find out from bh tuning. To get more acurate finetune i shoot from 30y. Then you will see where they are realy grooping. Closer it may seems to be fine but 30y it will show true, if arrow is ewen slitely sideways.
A 20" group at 30 yards only shows variation in form. That is why making statements in Archery is so tough, to much variation, especially form. It all comes back to form.
It is also foolish to take things that people say are true as the truth. Judging me without talking to me is not wise either. If you knew me then you would know that I'm very open minded and that I do not put down others ways, I in fact embrace difference. What I do is to question. For if you cannot prove your point, then how good is it? Saying something is true does not make it true.
This is a great video scientifically showing what to expect here. I think the window that Pearson specified 71/2 to 81/2 was because they were in the sweet spot. It may be possible that if you had a string that was an inch or two longer than standard making about a 6 inch brace height, I think you might actually have lower draw weight. I used to do that as a youngster because I didn't know what I was doing. But I was shooting a bow that I think should have been to strong for me. I am going to test this theory myself, going lower than the specifications that is. I am trying to get a bow my nephews can grow into. They have never shot a bow so hopefully their back muscles will build up quickly. I have just bought a 40# Pearson Cougar. I now have a Colt like the ones you like so much. 30# is what is wrote on it but I have checked it and it had 36#. But it shoots great. Big sight window. Good velocity. Thanks again for the video.
So, you decreased brace height about an inch and got a negligible 1 ft. Increase. So, brace height does have some effect on arrow speed, but it's probably negligible? But how would an exaggerated brace height effect arrow speed? Say, 4 or 5 inches higher than regular brace height?
Larry Reese I can get and have bigger variance in speed just from small variances in my form. 1 FPS does not “prove” anything, to make other variables. As for increasing it in the amount you want, unless you are using an English Long Bow, then it is not reasonable to do so. Why would you do that on a bow?
@@TradArchery101 true, but all things being equal..... ? What are your ideas about a highly reflexed bow as compared to the popular deflex reflex design favored by a lot of shooters. Seems to me that the ability to store and release optimum energy increases caste. Would just like to hear your thoughts.
@@TradArchery101 what works, works. Thanks for your reply. I do appreciate your opinions. It's just kind of interesting to me about how to build a better mouse trap. I've always enjoyed the sport. Take care.
All depends on what the spec's are. I could find no performance advantage in just one inch. I would not recommend going past that. The question really is; "Is it worth the performance gain, to take the bow outside of manufacturers specs"?
In the beginning of the video, it seems like when you are "adding twists in the string" you describe this as lowering brace height. It seems like adding twists would Increase the brace height when measured with a square?
Interesting test.. my initial gut reaction... i would have thought that a lower brace height would effect the arrow as it would impart force for longer as well as increasing your draw length. I mean if i have say a 6 inch brace height and pull it back to my mouth, i would assume the string is imparting energy a lot longer than if i have an 8inch brace heigh, pulling it back to the very same anchor point. I mean effectively i'd be drawing the string 2 inch shorter than on the 6in brace height,.. which could make a lot of difference in terms of the bows poundage. But your tests suggest otherwise.. so i would assume i am not considering something... then again, when i think about it, i suppose it makes no difference to the weight of the bow... as you might draw less string with a higher brace height, but your total distance is the same. Still, i think it should make a difference because the string accelerates the arrow longer with a lower brace height.
You are right. It does add speed. Just not enough to make a difference or should i say a performance advantage. Why? Because most manufacturers have a one inch difference in brace height. That one inch will not give you any measurable advantage. Now if you go 2 or three inchs maybe, but not one inch.
Without even watching the video i can say the answer is that it's true. The only way to increase brace height is to make the string shorter. That means it pulls more on the limbs. That means that at full draw, the limbs are curved more than before, therefore have more energy in them. Now, i doubt you get much of a performance gain out of it, and the losses probably outweigh the gains, otherwise everyone would be doing it.
Not really. If you think about it. most bows have a 1" range for recommended brace height. How much of a change should there be for just and inch? Not much. Now if you went well past that to 2 or 3", yeah then you would see a difference. But that is not what is the recommended range by the manufacturer, so I will not go past it.
Khatra does kinda work for FPS. But.. that's not the point of khatra. And it doesn't add much fps through the chrony. There's also multiple ways of khatra, perhaps torque khatra does technically add energy into the bow? But.. like 0.1 pound? or a couple joules. My guess why khatra adds arrow speed is due to less friction of the arrow because it doesn't hit/scrape the bow/riser/hand. (Plenty of super slow mo footage backing this, and you can also clearly hear the difference when you're shooting. And people recorded the dB difference between regular and khatra) And other, maybe because you just add a little flick with the wrist forward to the already speeding string/arrow? Anyway, long comment on something that wasn't the point of this video XP. Good video none the less 😛
@@TradArchery101 I use khatra with my bows that don't have a center cut. Is khatra amazing? no, it can sometimes be a little tool for arrows with wrong spines, make floppy arrows shoot more straight, or bring your arrows a little more to the left (in case of right handed with arrow on the right) (If you're very well acquainted with the bow you're using) First off I'll admit I never tested myself through a chrony what the difference is or if there is any in my case. Sometimes it feels a little faster, but feeling can be deceptive, or maybe it's merely due to a technique error that makes it that you draw a little further hehe. for many you combine/trigger your release by pre loading the khatra, if you time it well, you get a nice clean khatra, but if your release is a few Mili seconds late, you increase the draw a tiny bit, and perhaps that's why some people see an increased FPS in their tests. This is merely speculative tho. Armin Hirmer has some comparison vids between different khatra's and no khatra. Subtracting the lowest and highest results and making an avg. It does seem to show a slight difference/increase. Anyway, yeah khatra for me is just fun/trad, and it feels different a good executed khatra feels great, but it definitely made me butcher otherwise good shots too tho hehe, it's silly in that you add another variable to your shot cycle. But eh, each their own. It takes a lot of practice to use it properly. And tuning your arrows makes mostly khatra unnecessary tbh. I just like it. It makes me shoot all kinds of varying spines and make them group in a similar location without adjusting aim. And I think originally that's the the whole idea of traditional khatra, and not to increase fps. Want to increase FPS? Get a more efficient and stronger bow or lighter arrows. I don't like people that act as if khatra is some kind of magical thing. But I'm also on "team" khatra sorta works.
hello, thanks for the vids, very interestings. one way to increase speed should be to add weights to the string, i haven't tested it yet, did you ? i make hobby bows mongolian/turkish for my kids & me and i'l love to see that kind of test, thanks
What you are talking about. I see that there was 51-52#when 7,5" and 53-54# when 8,5". Allso you pull from 1cm difrent spot on string (see nocking Point). And when use crono are there 5% mistake posible.
+Bicycle sunday So let me get this straight, you use the chronograph as proof then you dismiss it as inaccurate. Sorry can't have it both ways. I shot over 100 arrows recorded all the numbers eliminated the high and lows and got an average. The one to two FPS can be many things and not the brace height. How about the draw weigh test that showed they were the same draw weight at different brace heights. That should not occur if the change in height was to have any affect.
Yes and sorry sir. This isn't my native language so i don't know how to be polite. Or write corectly. But your video show that there are one# diference. My chrono comment is just side note. And you are totaly right that ancor and release have werry Big influens on arrow speed. Ai say this is Plosable
+Archery 101 Ok. If you think that 1# is nothing...but i can help you on this. That one is to help fine tune your arrow hitpoint. You had 8week turnament and if i remember right (you shot good) but the spred was iniwini little on right. Because you are lefty your arrow is pit too stiff. Degrease your bh with half or ewen one turn. Then you be on money with 100 arrows. Pleace test that. Peace out
I enjoyed the video. And yes, I was surprised and not. One inch isn't that much difference. That's one reason I guess the mfr recommends that. It is consistent. So, cool video and good findings. Theory is great. I'll take practical results any day. They actually mean something. God bless and on to the next.
Friction of arrows contact with the bow. The smaller the contact point the lower the Friction. That being said, the amount of Friction should be negligible.
interesting,, I would have expected more out of the arrow speed test. So what does affect arrow speed, In a recurve , does the amount of curve in the tips affect speed. I have seen a few bows where the curl notably more than most bows, I was told this give more speed at the same poundage than other bows. I guess something else to look at. I'll give you another one to work on, Which makes better flu flu's, soft fletching or stiff. I have some fletching coming from a friend, they will be the standard full wing fletching to cut my flu flus from. Because I also practice falconry I have so redtailed hawk feathers laying a bout that I used to make my wife a flu flu with. This is the only flu flu we have. I have rt feathers to make another and will be doing so, and comparing but would like your input as well. Thanks , Chris
+sparky elven Falconry, too cool. My neighbor had one as I kid. I would stand and watch it for hours (It was in their backyard). I believe that the curve itself does not make it go faster, but is a more efficient design that allows more of the potential energy to be converted into kinetic energy, at least that is what I have been told. The big thing to remember is that the test in the video, stayed within manufacturer's recommendations, which is usually an inch. That one inch is not going to give you any real gain in speed that is worth the possible trade off in sound and vibration. I do like the Flu Flu one, I will ask around for opinions and see what i get. Thanks
Only way you will increase the speed of any bow is to pull the string farther back . The speed goes from fastest at release to zero at brace . It doesn't leave much to the imagination .
I would have thought that a lower brace height would have been the higher speed because the arrow was in contact with the string longer. But, it is what it is. Lol
It makes logical sense, but how much longer is it in contact for? Not even a millisecond would be my guess, so how much more power can be transferred in that time?
hello . my name is RichardRobberegt 163120 ,Holland . By commenting on this video I know i could put my head on the chopping Block. Archery in evry form is one of the most beautiful sports, to spend your time ! i've been following your video's about "that if braise height would would change arrow speed" . Iapreciate very much the fact that you share your experiences with your bare bow ect.ect .because there is not enough info for the beginning shooter . And I'm not trying to put someone in the wrong daylight .Or to be a know it all .Imean it all in a sympathetic way . Imyself am a recurve olympic style archer and my experiences are a little diffrent then yours .If I lower the braise hight only two or three mm's my arrows tend to land about 3-7 cm lower at 18 m's of distance let alone at a distance let say 70 meters Of course if you measure the speed through a speed divice at a distance of only 1 - 2 meters the difrence will be very little to none . It is very hard to see the diffrences with a bare bow (wood ) at 18 metrs . There are some trics to tune your braise height to the best possible energy delivrence .if you set your braise height too high ,it lands lower if you set your braise hight too low its also land lower There is a sweet spot in every bow .its due to the distence that differs when the arrow is released : braise height too high : arrow releases sooner !braise height too low it releases later with less energy .These diffrences are pretty hard to detect at short distances Our experiences are not based on a scientific inviroment I wished That these big Bow Manufacturers would shed some knowledge on these subject .
A logical approach: An increased brace height is achieved with a shorter string, so both at rest and full draw, the limbs are closer together and therefore there will be an (admittedly slightly) higher tension on the string, resulting in an apparently very small increase in draw weight, but an increase none the less. As for arrow speed, the string pushes the arrow harder, but for a shorter distance, as it is stopped in its tracks sooner. Thanks for testing the real world magnitude of these variables!
This is not agurate sciens. If bracehight tuning is making arrow go to 2" left or right. Then it is so slidely different that you can't mesure it. But arrow will fly strate from that tuning.
+Bicycle sunday Never said it was accurate science. It was a simple test to see if there was anything to what I was told about it making an arrow go faster. No increase in draw weight (unless magic occurs, no more energy is going to be transmitted into the arrow), speeds only 1 to 2 fps indifference. There is nothing to indicate that it is true. Everything points to the opposite. If it was so true, there would have been more indications of it and there wasn't.
+Bicycle sunday that 2 inch difference, i think is because of a longer flight path for the arrow. because it has an inch more room to fly, it will oscilate differently at the moment of the nock release. when it flies of your finger the string also gets a kick sideways. because of that longer flightpath it will release the nock slightly more left/right
The way I look at it is, with the 7.5 Brace height, the string hangs on to the arrow for a inch more before coming to an abrupt stop therefore giving the arrow a greater push. I tend to find the lower the Brace height the higher the arrow hits the target and I have to aim lower.
Thank you! Your testings are making things lot easier for me :)
Thank you Gregg! I was specifically looking for someone that tested this after a discussion I had on the subject and only found people repeating past "known" information. Your results are actually what I expected. My explanation is that the 1 inch decrease in the distance the arrow is being pulled is compensated by the slight increase in draw weight at every inch of draw so that the area under the draw curve characteristic ( energy) is not significantly different. In addition my guess is that a lower AMO bow like a 48" magnum would be more significantly effected by a one inch change because of the geometry.FrankieBob
I am coming from an engineering and military background, and i love how you subtly incorporate both!!!
As a total novice I’m so glad I found your channel. Thanks
I started archery 11 months ago and everything I have learned has been from the internet meaning archery discussion boards and you tube videos. I was told the following.
A taller brace height will:
1. Increase draw weight
2. Decrease arrow speed
3. Soften the dynamic spine of the arrow goes right
A shorter brace height will:
1. Decrease draw weight
2. Increase arrow speed
3. Stiffen the dynamic spine of the arrow goes left
The only real difference I notice with the brace height is the bow is quieter with an 8" BH than a 7 1/2 BH.
I have a Samick Sage 35# limbs and use a Flemish fast flight string
The whole thing is yes, it CAN do that, but not with a 1" change, which is what most manufactures have as their recommended settings.
In a compound bow increasing brace height definitely decreases arrow speed. More so than a recurve Bow too.
thanks, I often have thought about what you have found out. You are a clever , skilled and intelligent guy.
greetings from Germany and merry christmas to you......
Wow, reading all these comments reminds me of the presidential politics; so much arguing. Greg is only pointing out that there is no seat of the pants performance gain from 1-2 fps, not that there is NO gain. Our AVERAGE "performance" is so controlled (read that as varied) by our shot cycle that a 1 inch brace height difference will never be noticed by the average shooter. I shoot a black widow longbow and I stay within the mfr recommendations and only adjust my brace height to control noise and string slap. Remember, archery is supposed to be fun, and I am always smiling when I watch Greg's' videos, and you should be too.
Thanks Jerry, unfortunately people focus more on being technically "right" than on what is said. It can get frustrating at times.
jerry clower could not agree more
I appreciate the chance to share my experience on this subject .
THANX ! HAPPY SHOOTING ! and keep up the good work !!
This channel is a treasure trove.
When I made my first bow, I tested this and I got about 2lb per added inch of brace height. I would expect that to vary with limb strength. I couldn't test speed, but logically, higher brace height would give more static force, but lower would give you more efficient transfer of power. Tuning for low noise and handshock will probably get you right at the sweet spot between the two, since noise and handshock, represent lost energy.
thanks Greg this is Robin in Indiana and I often wondered about that and you just answered it for me keep up the work
I would trade that 1 FPS increase for a quieter bow.
Great video. Thanks for testing it out.
Thanks Greg, it's what I thought. I have had some tell me changing brace high will change the pounds you pull. If it's say 50# at 28" then no matter what you put your BH at its still 50# at 28".
As for the speed changing I don't see how if the weight stayed the same. Thank you again . Alan
That surprised me!
Perhaps I'll just go for good arrow flight knowing this.
Your Fact or Fiction is fabulous. Can't get enough of them. Will there be more such awesome video in 2019?
Working on one. Doing a ton of testing. Maybe in a coupe of weeks.
Great, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you.
Nice one! It's always good to stir the pot by actually demonstrating what you're discussing. You can't beat experimentation - it's the way we test the world around us and grow as a result.
I like what he does.He shares information and if you dont like or believe what he shows us-DO NOT watch or comment.
Gregg nice video here. Great topic. The longer the arrow is on the string at release effects the transfer of energy off of the riser/rest. Tip weight effects how the arrow and shaft flex thru release and brace height changes left and right flight innthat way i think. Sweet spot the brace height tuning for comfort and feel in the shot. IMO
It can be used for fine tuning the arrows flight. It will not give you another bow.
The longer time the string pushes the arrow, the more transfer of energy to it. In low pound kid bows I noticed if the string was short, it shot very smooth but slow. But with the string longer and a lower brace height, it was louder but a lot faster. Same principle behind long vs short barrels.
It sounds logical, yet how much extra time is that? Aa millisecond?, so how much more energy can be transferred in that time?
@@TradArchery101 true. When I did my testing on the small fiberglass bow I had some extreme brace height differences. But I would think it's not about time as it is about distance like a rifle barrel vs. A handgun barrel. If the string pushes say... one third the distance farther, that is energy goes in the arrow. It would seem that having one third more time and distance pushing would matter. It really did on the little bow. It was so smooth with a high brace but weak etc. I grew up instinctive shooting and to me a bare bow means primitive. By the time you get into all these new exact numbers, weights, measurements and hundreds of products, it sort of loses the magic for me. A long range shot is usually only for targets if you are a humane hunter...or starving I guess lol. I found that instead of thinking I never learned to shoot a proper way and that I must have tons of bad habits, it's all about practice and being comfortable with your gear. If you see Lars Andersen (stunning must see snap shooting), Comanche archery, and Ryan Gill at Hunt Primitive channel (22 inch arrows on 60lb self bow) it seems my way was simply the primitive or natural way. Shoot 10,000 arrows and get used to your gear and will work. Snap shooters say the way to start a new archer is with moving targets. This develops the instinct to triangulate. we don't aim a baseball, a whip, wild west quick draw etc. But we still hit wit pin point accuracy with practice. A bow is no different. The ability to triangulate and throw accurately separates us and evolved us from all other animals.i apologize for the book but figured you and other archers are the kind to read and want to know or be reminded etc.. Thanks for the reply and all the best! Mike.
The change of length in the power stroke is the mechanical principle behind this theory. But I tend to agree with you.
I ran some chrono/brace height tests today (for the second time). I first did this about 20 years ago when I used a chronograph as part of my practice for shooting the York Round with an English Longbow (it worked, raised a County Record that had stood for 13 years).
A change in speed only becomes noticeable or significant if the change in brace height is quite large (this is what we should be looking at - how large a change in brace height before it matters).
In the context of a small change in brace height of only an inch or so, most folks will regularly shoot with a greater variation in cast (due to inconsistencies in draw-length, loose. rhythm, tempo and holding time) that might accrue from a trivial increase in cast.
IMO more significant than a trivial increase in cast is the potential for a deterioration in recovery from paradox with an increase in arrow offset.
Shooting an English longbow or a primitive self-bow I run a slightly high brace height which gives me better recovery from paradox with my prefered spine and can obtain a solution that gives me a set-up that will shoot my arrow (in lateral terms) exactly where it is pointed at full draw. This is my preference, a bow that is no more than 1" wide at the pass, suitably radiused, giving an angle of offset at brace height less than 5 degrees (not including an allowance for shaft width) but with a brace height of 7 1/4".
My problem is trying to have a rational exchange of views on bow set-up & geometry with an aficianado of low braced, wide handled flatbows. Here the concept of applying some basic trigonometry is a probably a big ask.
Interesting, my instinct tells me that a higher brace height would give a shorter power stroke, ie the arrow is in contact with the string (and therefore being pushed) for less time. I would therefore expect the higher brace height to give a slower arrow speed. However I bow to your seemingly thorough experiment, I learn stuff every day. Thanks Greg
Mark,
That is what many think. But then you also have to look at it like this; How much difference is there between the two in the amount of time the arrow is in contact with the string? A millisecond? So how much more or less energy can be transferred in that Millisecond?
i think its only relevant for compounds, cause if you have a 5 inch brace height vs a 6 inch brace height you actually pull the string an inch further. at 30 inch draw length it would be 25vs24 inches. and a harsh compound can use this inch more where on the other hand a traditional bow does not have the tension on the first inches of the drawcycle to make a real difference
Greg,
As always great videos and information.
I watched your RUclips video talking about brace height where are you did some testing to see if the speed of a bow changed by changing the brace height. You found out no it didn’t for the most part. I agree as well.
But the one thing you failed to mention, I think unless I missed it, was that brace height it was more an adjustment of tuning that effects fishtail and or vibration more than anything else.
As we know brace height determines how long that string will stay with that arrow. And along with that goes more or less vibration and more or less sound as the string contacts recurve limbs if we’re talking about a recurve bow of course. Which you used in your test thing.
Generally when brace height is decreased to low that string is staying with the aero too long and will result in more noise as the string slaps back into the recurve limbs AND generally MORE vibration as a end result.
If your Bow Brace is too small you might hit your wrist and the string will slap the inner bow ..
when the brace is right you may find the proper poundage at certain length the proper size string is recommended and your brace should be more or less perfect but variations on weather elongate or shorten the string that is when the brace needs work .
It depends on the bow. The issue is duration of acceleration. Power is force over time, so if your projectile is accelerated by the same force, for a longer period, then youll get higher velocity. With modern, precision manufactured bows, you wont get much difference, because theyre already optimized.
If the brace height is altered it will alter the initial amount of weight required to start making the limbs move. However the draw length will stay the same so the total draw weight stays the same. To increase the draw weight with same draw length you would need to increase the thickness of riser so the pressure point of the hand and measuring point is further back. This would also increase the speed. A large alteration is the only way brace height would really make a big difference to speed but what bow has a 3" tolerance between top and bottom brace height.
Thanks Greg.
Very good video and demonstration. Still, what about different styles of bows? My logic says that a 4 bend bow (scythian and mongolian horsebow, for instance) is more susceptible to alterating draw weight and arrow speed.
The question would be how much of a change in Brace height? Most bows only recommend no more than an 1" difference. That 1" will not make much of a difference regardless of style. Go past that, then maybe.
@@TradArchery101 I agree because new styles of bows are all the same recurve tips, but when talking about historical bows, it should be different.
An English longbow should have a negative impact when increasing brace height, but a Korean horsebow, which has a high bow length to string length ratio, should be a positive difference.
Still, useless info cause it's all in the past.
My Hoyt Horizon with 36# limbs runs 35.6 to 37.9 minimum to maximum brace height using a digital scale and draw rack. (Recommended is 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 for the PSA limbs I have.) Right ON 36# at 7 7/8 brace height / 28 in draw, which is where it’s the most quiet. (My personal draw is 29 inches.)
Didn’t do a chrono but there was definitely a notable difference in arrow energy, front to back.
Slight difference between an ILF bow and a one piece recurve. ILF bows have adjustable
Draw weights, wooden one piece bows do not.
Je ne parle pas anglais c'est donc en français que je vous dis comment j'ai augmenté la puissance de certains de mes arcs de +10. livres. J'ai collé du vinyle sur les branches, vinyle pour tableau de bord de voiture qui s'étire et revient a sa forme initiale. Voilà,, pour la vitesse et la force cinétique je ne sais pas.
Interesting test. But I,m not surprised with the oitcome. Or I too would hsve heard about it by now.
Nice job lefty. Well (I,m lefty also)👍
I read a lot of these comments. I think some people slept through physics class. I am with you. A new string a little longer or shorter is nothing to worry about.
You should try a great plains bow think the will be the perfect match for you. I have a model b it extremely well made and nice to shoot
I think it also depends on the bow. The idea behind it is that the lower brace hight means the arrow is being accelerated for longer so theoretically there is more nrg being stored in the limbs with a lower brace hight because the displacement of the limbs is greater over (in theory ) the same time thus more nrg
All sounds good in theory, but if you look at how I tested (Within the manufactures recommend settings), then one inch is not going to make a difference.
It maybe fiction, but I seem to be more Accurate with a little more brace height than before I'm shooting 8.25 brave height and I love it. By the way after looking at your videos I own 4 ben pearson bows two Colts 45, 40@62" one Special 45@ 58" the 58 " is my favorite and one 66"@40# thank for your help, I'm shooting great now!!
It makes sense to me that there is some, albeit little, increase in speed at a higher brace height as energy may be lost in the form of vibration and noise. It is too little to make much difference though.
Logic path from a new archer, but old lead-slinger. Brace height differences provide a "slightly" greater or lesser pre-load prior to the draw. However, the draw weight at full draw is the same isn't it, regardless of brace height? The difference being the point at which the string lets go of the nock on release? The greater the brace height, the earlier the nock is released from the string? Does this mean greater brace height reduces the length of string travel before release? Therefore, greater brace height equates to (slightly) lower release velocity? As a %age of the overall draw length, the brace height difference is surely insignificant to velocity, more important as regards handling quality & slap noise? Help me grasp this! Thanks.
Ok, just been thinking this through for a second or two, if the brace height is 1/2" greater over a 20" draw, that's a 2% increase at full draw? Not going to make a massive difference to velocity...?
The problem here is that those arguing against my conclusion did not listen as the why I made that decision.
Here is why I made it:
1) Most manufacturers call for only a 1" range in brace height (Long Bows generally 6 to 7 and Recurves 7.5 to 8.5") with such a small difference how much of an increase in speed will you get and will it be enough to affect the arrow, will it improve performance?
Yes and no, it will increase the speed, but no the performance, It will not change my GAP, it will not shoot farther. why? Point number 2.
2) The increase in speed is no more than the average variation in FPS that most archers get from shot to shot because of variations in their shot cycle. Most archer have between 3 and 7 FPS difference between shots which is more than the increase due to brace height..
3) So, in the end, Is that extra one or maybe two FPS worth the extra time and effort? Is it worth the hand shock?
Since you can get just as much of an increase by focusing on good form, I would say "No" and i stand by that. If it were wrong, then all of the top archers would tell you to use as big of a brace height as possible and yet, you do not hear that.
Did that help clear it up for you?
I think you might get more significant results if you were to take your same measurement in 3 conditions: 1) at the middle of the recommended so 8.0 inches, 2) just short of the recommended height @ 7.25 inches and 3) @ 8.75 inches... For a more proper test, you'd want to have some type of mechanical set up to take out any influence the individual archer would have on the shots. In your testing you just measured at the lower and higher ends of the recommended brace height, so your bow is still within the recommended height range. I think you'd find that outside of the recommended range, you'd see significant drop-off in performance either in arrow speed or accuracy. I don't think the 'recommended brace height' is only about silencing your bow string. If you're in a tree stand and you take a shot and miss even with the most silent bow, the impact of the arrow on the ground and the startling of the intended quarry's running off is going to be a much bigger impact on sound than the sound of an 'untuned' bow. I would think that for best performance of the arrow, you want the bowstring to launch it over the best distance of travel before loosing the arrow. With a taller brace height you might get a bit quicker bowstring movement but the string will hit its limit of travel quicker. With a more shallow brace height you might get more travel of the bowstring but at the bottom of the string's power stroke it will have less power behind it and more likely to put some type of unwanted dynamic against the nock of the arrow.
what about reducing the brace height below minimum say an inch too low ?
Because of timing of sideways arrow flex does brace hight effect left and right impact of the arrow on the target.
Interesting question. My initial answer would be no, I have not noticed that
@@TradArchery101 Try shooting an arrow and then add or subtract 5 twists to change the brace hight and see what happens to the arrow. Frank Pearson believes that it will move the impact left or right.
@@Wherryish
That is what I did and there was no difference.
The thing that many who say that it does matter don’t say is that it only shows up at 45 plus yards.
Most trad archers don’t shoot much past 20 yards.
As usual good job.
I'm with you.on brace height
My air rifle has a 6 to 7 fps difference, I like the brace height that's quiet
love that clip at the end
+Jimmy Brendli I started reading comments as he was doing the closing of the video, I'm glad you paid attention. That was cool :)
I know for one thing , it can effect how that string can leave a real mark on your bow hand forearm
My understanding is that it's supposed to create most energy at optimum brace height I've never seen any difference myself only cause the bow to shoot smoother and quiter I'm with Gregg on this one
I liked it gregg, thought it would be a slightly bigger difference than your tests. But it really wasn't. very fair test procedure. now on kenitic energy, would a larger diameter arrow vs smaller diameter have any difference in penetration, say in a hunting scenario. I would yes at certain distances - as far as the arrow dropping off before hitting the target. Thanks J.Ray
i am not nearly as familiar with recurves as with longbows so i will trust your findings on that. i will assume it may not be too different with longbows but i have always heard that a lower brace height would make the arrow fly faster. i always assumed it would be because the longer the string, the lower the brace height, ...the further forward and closer to straight the limbs can return. theoretically the closer to "resting" the limbs can return the more stored potential energy they can impart to the string and thus the arrow. I don't have chronos or draw weight scales or any of that so I don't know if a lower brace height did too much for the speed of my arrow. it seemed faster to the eye, and sounded like it was striking the target louder, but what I do KNOW a lower brace height will do is slap the string into your wrist every time no matter how thick your shooting guard and no matter how you hold the bow! (well as low as I had mine set: about a 4 inch brace) I thought about trying to add a metal plate and a tad more padding to my vambrace but i worried that if the string were to catch on the edge of the metal plate no amount of bullnosing its edges would prevent it damaging the string. so I just went back to a higher brace height.
The difference between long bows and recurves is not that great. I'm not saying there is NO difference, just that there is no performance advantage if you stay within the manufacturer recommended settings which are almost always within one inch of each other. If you go beyond that, its up to you, but I cannot (for liability reasons) and will not mention, recommend doing so.
Nice work, i enjoy your videos.
Have you done a video on whether or not string silencers slow the speed down or not and all that goes with it if it does?
ralpheide@hotmail.com
I would like too. I need to find a better way of testing. Right now, with my normal shot cycle I can get anywhere from a three to five fps difference between shots.
I tested this on my recurve, and if there's a difference I couldn't measure it.
Too much variability in the testing methodology. Also, the bow may not be able to capitalize on a decreased brace height. Testing more bows would've helped. Was the nock height adjusted for the different brace heights so that the nock height was the same, but only the brace height changed?
+MrAngryTwinkie
You cannot eliminate variables, only minimize them. If it does not work on all bows and only on select bows then it is fiction. The test was conducted on multiple bows of different design and build. There was no significant increase in arrow speed on any of them. And yes, the nock was adjusted. Thanks for watching.
+Archery 101 Not at all. You may be running into design or material limitations, thus under certain circumstances, a lower brace height may equal higher speed. Does high vs low brace height influence speed on a D shaped longbow? Traditional Recurve? Carbon Fiber recurve? Etc. Fact vs Fiction is nice for a short video, but like many things in life, the truth is more cumbersome.
Certain circumstances is an exception not a rule. The test was run on the bow in the video, a fiber glass bow (long & Recurve), A Longbow and a TD, the results were all in line with each other. There was no gain in speed that couldn't be explained otherwise.
+Archery 101 Brace height can *absolutely* impact the speed of the arrow. Put it at a 6" brace height and put it at a 9.5" brace height and retest. Interestingly enough, too low of a brace height will also rob of you speed. Reasons: Altered geometry. Changed wavelengths or timing of an arrow's flex. So Part 1 of the answer is, yes, altering brace height does impact speed and may increase it depending it on where you start. That said,it is likely that the manufacturer has recommended a brace height within the bow's sweet spot. Given accurate enough testing equipment and methodologies, you'll absolutely see a difference in FPS. Part 2 of the answer is -- it may not be PRACTICALLY significant within the Goldilocks zone.
The video is about staying within manufacturers settings. Within those settings the difference is insignificant and does not improve performance to such a degree that it matters.
Good topic really interested in results.Thought higher brace height might have made the shot stroke a bit shorter having some affect.....but no!
I did have an affect, just not enough of one to make a performance difference. You can get better results (most people see a three to five fps variation per shot) by perfecting your release and making it more consistent.
So no difference, but if you're slapping your forearm with the sting, adding brace height COULD help with that! :)
i think you are right but when i adjust the the brace heitgh it feels like the draw is more balanced. so that the string draw more even on the lims.
Good point yes. A balanced bow means its quite repeatable to train your draw consistancy and fine tune set up and release!
Yes and when its balanced the draw feels easier
A lower brace height absolutely increases arrow speed due to the longer power stroke. This is exemplified by medieval crossbows. Some handheld crossbows were up to ~1,200 lbs of draw weight. However, the power stroke is so small at only about 4.5-6.5 inches that they impart about the same energy to the bolt as a heavy longbow would to an arrow. Its all about how long the arrow is in contact with the string. Obviously, this difference can be quite small. Even in Toxophilus written in 1545 by Roger Ascham it is stated that a lower brace height increases cast, and a higher brace height is helpful for accurate shooting.
Drew thank you for watching. Did you hear where I said it does not make a difference in the one inch range that the manufacturers recommend? I did not test a crossbow or any medieval bow. The video was about current bows made today.
Archery 101 Hello,
I understand that you didn't test any crossbows, but the principle is exactly the same. I was just trying to bring an extreme example to the table to illustrate my point. There is mechanically no difference between medieval or modern trad bows. You are correct in saying that within a one inch range the difference is small, but there is a difference. Like I said before it all comes down to power stroke. All else being equal, a 22 inch power stroke will shoot faster than a 20 inch power stroke . Thanks
The difference in speed of 1" in brace height is not noticeable and very hard to differentiate using a chronograph. Why? Because the average archer hs between three and seven fps difference per shot. Changing the brace height one inch does not increase the speed more than that. The difference in speed can easily be attributed to variance in the shot cycle. There is no performance advantage to changing the brace height one inch. That was my point and i stand by that.
Archery 101 I get what you're saying. But, there is a performance increase. That said, I'm not really arguing that its worth it to make a change to your brace height for this reason alone. Maybe it is less prevalent with lighter bows were the release can be finicky.
I tested it on my 47 pounder, my 38 pounder and my 25 pounder. I could find no consistent performance increase. In my testing, without even changing the brace height the variance in speed was between 3 and 5 fps. Now, by changing the brace height, you can also induce more noise and hand shock. It is not worth it. It gives you no performance advantage that is worth the hand shock or increase in sound. It is actually easier to simply pull back a little more, focus on you back and reach full draw to get the same results.
Post edited and corrected :)
Thanks for sharing this Greg. Interesting test you did there. So if brace height does not affect speed or drawweight - what effect does it have on the arrow fligh if any? My observations through time: if I am warmed up and consistent in the shot cycle and well zero'ed in on a ~30 yd target with an 8.5" BH, going down to 7.5" BH would immediately cause my arrows to hit 1 - 2 inch higher time after time.
So while speed and draw weight might remain consistent it seems that the amount of kinetic energy absorbed by the arrow is being increased by the longer string travel. You won't see this in a chrony or with a scale and I understand this was not the objective of this video, striclty speaking. But archers might draw the wrong conclusions here - if BH is only to accomplish a more comfortable draw or release and BH changes up to a full 1" don't make any difference, then why are people crying about Dacron string creep - there is no difference anyway right? :)
The arrows hitting higher, That could be because when you change your brace height, you nock moves. Did you adjust your nock point?
I do not believe that there is no performance advantage to be gained by worrying about the brace height. Adjusting the brace height is more about "quieting" the bow and reducing hand shock. Like I said a 1" difference is not going to give you that much more performance. Why do people cry about dacron? Simply, because they have to re-adjust their brace height again and their nock point. For them it is an inconvenience issue, not a performance issue..
Ok, coming to think of it I agree with you on both counts. The nock point certainly moved, even though it seemed to be so minimal to me at the time that I didn't pay much attention. Not a very scientific approach, admittedly. Shooting 30yds might increase the "minimal" to 1-2 inch of course. So in that case the BH setting is really a parameter mainly to increase individual comfort. Live and learn.
I do not deny that it increases speed. What I said is that the one inch most bows have, will not give you any real performance advantage. Most people fluctuate three to five fps on every shot. You can get more from making that steady than by worrying about your brace height. Here is the kicker, I rarely check mine (one my string stretches). I just string and go most of the time.
does brace height affect left/right arrow flight? I think it does.
it does!
if i untwist my string my arrows go left....
Billy Evans archers paradox?
Billy Evans Absolutely, I tweek my left & right shooting with minor brace height adjustments. Some days I may be shooting just a bit left or right consistently...brace height adjustment makes the bow shoot where I am looking.
your finding make sense to me. think about it, set you bow at min brace height and then just pull the string back 1". your limbs do not move . you could have measured tip to tip at both heights and that would have shown your speed and poundage would not be affected. If you change say 2"+ I would think yes there will be difference but then again that much of a change means your bow is not tuned at all.
Testing extremes only gives you no idea how things are going in between. If energy stored in arrow is like upside down U (tops in exact middle) then you can't detect that by measuring just both extremes. It would be beter to have at least three measurements or 5 to be more acurate.
good experiment. thank yew.
Thanks for your channel! I really appreciate it... lots of information that I Can afford!
What clamps are you using to hold your bows as seen in the background of this video? I need to make something like that.
Thanks
Those are shelf clamps from Home Depot.
Thank you.
Under perfect circumstances, with perfect measurement equipment, and perfect draw, you would probably recognise a little increase. But I think the effect is too small on a recurve to measure it without a shooting device. Arrow speed is gained by draw length and force per length unit. On a recurve the force in those last inch close to the brace height is very low. on the othrr hand, adding a quarter inch of overdraw at maximum force will outweigh all effects from brace height change.
here's a question. when shooting a bow with different brace heights the same amount of energy is stored and released over the power stroke. brace height is negligible because the arrow leaves the string at the same time regardless.... but what if you use a string stop? I think the extra inch of power stroke would make a difference then. but only because the arrow is leaving the string at a different spot.
I'm not saying that a different amount of energy would be stored with a lower brace height... just more efficiently transferred to the arrow.
+Paintballinmike1
I believe the big key which many missed is the "within manufacturer's recommendations". How much of a gain can you get from one inch? As for the string stop, interesting concept, but since I know nothing about compounds I couldn't answer that.
+Archery 101 I have a string stop on my long bow, and i my brace height can be as high as 7.5 nches and as low as 6 inches. marginal differences in speed = significant kinetic energy in ft lbs because arrows are such heavy projectiles.
You have any data on that? I know in ballistics speed and kinetic energy have a direct correlation and the curve is very similar.
+Archery 101 sure, take 2 shots with the same weight arrow. 1st shot the bow is at 7.5inch brace height with string silencers, second shot bow is at 6" brace height, no string silencers plus a good string stop. shooting medium weight 550grain arrows.
lets say first shot chronos 170fps
your putting out just over 35fpe and .414momentun,
second shot 180fps.
with a slight 10 fps increase (let's say over a 1.5inch powerstroke) your at just under 40 fpe and your momentum is .439.
I think that would be considered a significant performance increase behind a single bevel broadhead.. high FOC ;)
as far as lighter 3d arrows, it just equates to a slightly flatter trajectory. In hunting it *could* be the difference between a broken arrow and a pass through. (not to mention the flatter trajectory is always a welcome bonus).
I agree completely that limbs cannot store more energy unless they are further flexed, but if fastflight strings can more efficiently transfer the energy stored in the limbs. then why not a lower brace height with a string stop.
with 28" peak draw, the powerstroke has a definitive end at a 6" brace height.
with a 7.5 inch brace height, the powerstroke is not as efficient without a stop because the arrow is somewhat slowed down when the nock is still on the string past the brace height. the brace height difference is negligible without a stop, but with one I think a more efficient transfer of energy is made.
I love your videos and highly respect your opinion, I am truly enjoying this conversation.
Good stuff
Nice job. I always wondered about that, now I know. One thing I also don't know is why bows have a max and min brace height. Is it a performance issue or a safety issue?
I cannot answer that. But I have built a couple of laminated bows and I will say they do prefer a certain range this is remarkably consistent.
how about a video on different sting silencers. Do they change the tune, sound, speed? etc.
+Arturo Flores
That is in the works. We stumbled onto that while filming a shoot. We noticed that what we hear and what the camera picks up is very different, we also noticed that when filming downrange (the camera out in front of us) it was a different sound and from the side and rear. I'm currently playing with it and the testing gear. It is interesting to say the least.
Good to hear. Keep up the excellent work you make the best archery vids on the web.
I guess the only real factor is. lets say at 20 yards if we can get a very consistent shot With the same bow, arrow, and aiming point how much will reduced arrow speed change the arrows accuracy sense the arrow speed will be pretty close to being the same. Unless you really shoot a lot would most people ever notice any change in accuracy..
Ewen little more info that i find out from bh tuning. To get more acurate finetune i shoot from 30y. Then you will see where they are realy grooping. Closer it may seems to be fine but 30y it will show true, if arrow is ewen slitely sideways.
+Bicycle sunday
You have to video that. Bareshft at 30 in a group, impressive.
+Archery 101 My groop from 30y can be 3"-20" but it will show where arrows are hitting left to right
A 20" group at 30 yards only shows variation in form. That is why making statements in Archery is so tough, to much variation, especially form. It all comes back to form.
+Archery 101 Agtually it is wice that teatcher listen and try to understand. Not stuck on own opinion and think that its only trueth. Forewer peaceout
It is also foolish to take things that people say are true as the truth. Judging me without talking to me is not wise either.
If you knew me then you would know that I'm very open minded and that I do not put down others ways, I in fact embrace difference. What I do is to question. For if you cannot prove your point, then how good is it? Saying something is true does not make it true.
This is a great video scientifically showing what to expect here. I think the window that Pearson specified 71/2 to 81/2 was because they were in the sweet spot. It may be possible that if you had a string that was an inch or two longer than standard making about a 6 inch brace height, I think you might actually have lower draw weight. I used to do that as a youngster because I didn't know what I was doing. But I was shooting a bow that I think should have been to strong for me. I am going to test this theory myself, going lower than the specifications that is. I am trying to get a bow my nephews can grow into. They have never shot a bow so hopefully their back muscles will build up quickly. I have just bought a 40# Pearson Cougar. I now have a Colt like the ones you like so much. 30# is what is wrote on it but I have checked it and it had 36#. But it shoots great. Big sight window. Good velocity. Thanks again for the video.
Another reason is string slap. At a lower height, you tend to have that more. Just guessing, I really have no clue.
So, you decreased brace height about an inch and got a negligible 1 ft. Increase. So, brace height does have some effect on arrow speed, but it's probably negligible? But how would an exaggerated brace height effect arrow speed? Say, 4 or 5 inches higher than regular brace height?
Larry Reese
I can get and have bigger variance in speed just from small variances in my form.
1 FPS does not “prove” anything, to make other variables.
As for increasing it in the amount you want, unless you are using an English Long Bow, then it is not reasonable to do so. Why would you do that on a bow?
@@TradArchery101 true, but all things being equal..... ? What are your ideas about a highly reflexed bow as compared to the popular deflex reflex design favored by a lot of shooters. Seems to me that the ability to store and release optimum energy increases caste. Would just like to hear your thoughts.
No opinion on the different designs. I take each bow for what it is. Really don't care about design, just how they work for me and my way of shooting.
@@TradArchery101 what works, works. Thanks for your reply. I do appreciate your opinions. It's just kind of interesting to me about how to build a better mouse trap. I've always enjoyed the sport. Take care.
what about with abnormal brace heights? a 7 inch and a 9 inch?
All depends on what the spec's are. I could find no performance advantage in just one inch. I would not recommend going past that. The question really is; "Is it worth the performance gain, to take the bow outside of manufacturers specs"?
In the beginning of the video, it seems like when you are "adding twists in the string" you describe this as lowering brace height.
It seems like adding twists would Increase the brace height when measured with a square?
The string colors might make it look like that. If you add twist you shorten the string which increases brace height.
Interesting test.. my initial gut reaction... i would have thought that a lower brace height would effect the arrow as it would impart force for longer as well as increasing your draw length.
I mean if i have say a 6 inch brace height and pull it back to my mouth, i would assume the string is imparting energy a lot longer than if i have an 8inch brace heigh, pulling it back to the very same anchor point. I mean effectively i'd be drawing the string 2 inch shorter than on the 6in brace height,.. which could make a lot of difference in terms of the bows poundage.
But your tests suggest otherwise.. so i would assume i am not considering something... then again, when i think about it, i suppose it makes no difference to the weight of the bow... as you might draw less string with a higher brace height, but your total distance is the same.
Still, i think it should make a difference because the string accelerates the arrow longer with a lower brace height.
You are right. It does add speed. Just not enough to make a difference or should i say a performance advantage. Why? Because most manufacturers have a one inch difference in brace height. That one inch will not give you any measurable advantage. Now if you go 2 or three inchs maybe, but not one inch.
Without even watching the video i can say the answer is that it's true. The only way to increase brace height is to make the string shorter. That means it pulls more on the limbs. That means that at full draw, the limbs are curved more than before, therefore have more energy in them.
Now, i doubt you get much of a performance gain out of it, and the losses probably outweigh the gains, otherwise everyone would be doing it.
Didn't go through all the comments, but did you try it with multiple bows to see if it was a design effect, or if it was applicable to most bows?
Yes and the results were similar, not significant improvement when done within design specs.
Archery 101 Hmmm… Interesting…
Not really. If you think about it. most bows have a 1" range for recommended brace height. How much of a change should there be for just and inch? Not much. Now if you went well past that to 2 or 3", yeah then you would see a difference. But that is not what is the recommended range by the manufacturer, so I will not go past it.
Archery 101 True, but as a beginner in archery, then yeah that’s interesting. XD
It seemed to be true 4flech arrows are quieter than 3flech?
Definitely more consistent..
Khatra does kinda work for FPS.
But.. that's not the point of khatra.
And it doesn't add much fps through the chrony.
There's also multiple ways of khatra, perhaps torque khatra does technically add energy into the bow?
But.. like 0.1 pound? or a couple joules.
My guess why khatra adds arrow speed is due to less friction of the arrow because it doesn't hit/scrape the bow/riser/hand.
(Plenty of super slow mo footage backing this, and you can also clearly hear the difference when you're shooting. And people recorded the dB difference between regular and khatra)
And other, maybe because you just add a little flick with the wrist forward to the already speeding string/arrow?
Anyway, long comment on something that wasn't the point of this video XP.
Good video none the less 😛
I cannot tell you how many say that Khatra does increase the speed of the arrow.
@@TradArchery101 I use khatra with my bows that don't have a center cut.
Is khatra amazing? no, it can sometimes be a little tool for arrows with wrong spines, make floppy arrows shoot more straight, or bring your arrows a little more to the left (in case of right handed with arrow on the right)
(If you're very well acquainted with the bow you're using)
First off I'll admit I never tested myself through a chrony what the difference is or if there is any in my case.
Sometimes it feels a little faster, but feeling can be deceptive, or maybe it's merely due to a technique error that makes it that you draw a little further hehe.
for many you combine/trigger your release by pre loading the khatra, if you time it well, you get a nice clean khatra, but if your release is a few Mili seconds late, you increase the draw a tiny bit, and perhaps that's why some people see an increased FPS in their tests.
This is merely speculative tho.
Armin Hirmer has some comparison vids between different khatra's and no khatra.
Subtracting the lowest and highest results and making an avg.
It does seem to show a slight difference/increase.
Anyway, yeah khatra for me is just fun/trad, and it feels different a good executed khatra feels great, but it definitely made me butcher otherwise good shots too tho hehe, it's silly in that you add another variable to your shot cycle.
But eh, each their own.
It takes a lot of practice to use it properly.
And tuning your arrows makes mostly khatra unnecessary tbh.
I just like it.
It makes me shoot all kinds of varying spines and make them group in a similar location without adjusting aim.
And I think originally that's the the whole idea of traditional khatra, and not to increase fps.
Want to increase FPS? Get a more efficient and stronger bow or lighter arrows.
I don't like people that act as if khatra is some kind of magical thing.
But I'm also on "team" khatra sorta works.
hello, thanks for the vids, very interestings.
one way to increase speed should be to add weights to the string, i haven't tested it yet, did you ?
i make hobby bows mongolian/turkish for my kids & me and i'l love to see that kind of test,
thanks
Interesting will add that to my list, thanks
Archery 101 go for it Greg! Or did I miss it already? Adding string weight vs adding a stabilizer?
What you are talking about. I see that there was 51-52#when 7,5" and 53-54# when 8,5". Allso you pull from 1cm difrent spot on string (see nocking Point). And when use crono are there 5% mistake posible.
+Bicycle sunday
So let me get this straight, you use the chronograph as proof then you dismiss it as inaccurate. Sorry can't have it both ways. I shot over 100 arrows recorded all the numbers eliminated the high and lows and got an average. The one to two FPS can be many things and not the brace height. How about the draw weigh test that showed they were the same draw weight at different brace heights. That should not occur if the change in height was to have any affect.
Yes and sorry sir. This isn't my native language so i don't know how to be polite. Or write corectly. But your video show that there are one# diference. My chrono comment is just side note. And you are totaly right that ancor and release have werry Big influens on arrow speed. Ai say this is Plosable
One pound is not enough to call it verified or even plausible. I can explain the difference with many other factors. Sorry.
+Archery 101 Ok. If you think that 1# is nothing...but i can help you on this. That one is to help fine tune your arrow hitpoint. You had 8week turnament and if i remember right (you shot good) but the spred was iniwini little on right. Because you are lefty your arrow is pit too stiff. Degrease your bh with half or ewen one turn. Then you be on money with 100 arrows. Pleace test that. Peace out
I enjoyed the video. And yes, I was surprised and not. One inch isn't that much difference. That's one reason I guess the mfr recommends that. It is consistent. So, cool video and good findings. Theory is great. I'll take practical results any day. They actually mean something. God bless and on to the next.
Good stuff.
Friction of arrows contact with the bow. The smaller the contact point the lower the Friction. That being said, the amount of Friction should be negligible.
The arrow should not be making contact with the riser when released. Why? Because inertia causes the arrow to flex.
interesting,, I would have expected more out of the arrow speed test. So what does affect arrow speed, In a recurve , does the amount of curve in the tips affect speed. I have seen a few bows where the curl notably more than most bows, I was told this give more speed at the same poundage than other bows. I guess something else to look at. I'll give you another one to work on, Which makes better flu flu's, soft fletching or stiff. I have some fletching coming from a friend, they will be the standard full wing fletching to cut my flu flus from. Because I also practice falconry I have so redtailed hawk feathers laying a bout that I used to make my wife a flu flu with. This is the only flu flu we have. I have rt feathers to make another and will be doing so, and comparing but would like your input as well. Thanks , Chris
+sparky elven
Falconry, too cool. My neighbor had one as I kid. I would stand and watch it for hours (It was in their backyard).
I believe that the curve itself does not make it go faster, but is a more efficient design that allows more of the potential energy to be converted into kinetic energy, at least that is what I have been told. The big thing to remember is that the test in the video, stayed within manufacturer's recommendations, which is usually an inch. That one inch is not going to give you any real gain in speed that is worth the possible trade off in sound and vibration.
I do like the Flu Flu one, I will ask around for opinions and see what i get. Thanks
Only way you will increase the speed of any bow is to pull the string farther back .
The speed goes from fastest at release to zero at brace . It doesn't leave much to the imagination .
I've seen where a 45 lb string pull was faster than a 55 lb sting pull... so I guess it's the quality of the limbs???...
I would have thought that a lower brace height would have been the higher speed because the arrow was in contact with the string longer. But, it is what it is. Lol
It makes logical sense, but how much longer is it in contact for? Not even a millisecond would be my guess, so how much more power can be transferred in that time?
@@TradArchery101 From the evidence in your chronograph not a whole lot if any.
nailed it.
It doesn't change because the ratio between the string length and the brace height goes up and down in the same Arc
hello . my name is RichardRobberegt 163120 ,Holland .
By commenting on this video I know i could put my head on the chopping Block.
Archery in evry form is one of the most beautiful sports, to spend your time ! i've been following your video's about "that if braise height would would change arrow speed" .
Iapreciate very much the fact that you share your experiences with your bare bow ect.ect .because there is not enough info for the beginning shooter .
And I'm not trying to put someone in the wrong daylight .Or to be a know it all .Imean it all in a sympathetic way .
Imyself am a recurve olympic style archer and my experiences are a little diffrent then yours .If I lower the braise hight only two or three mm's my arrows tend to land about 3-7 cm lower at 18 m's of distance let alone at a distance let say 70 meters Of course if you measure the speed through a speed divice at a distance of only 1 - 2 meters the difrence will be very little to none .
It is very hard to see the diffrences with a bare bow (wood ) at 18 metrs .
There are some trics to tune your braise height to the best possible energy delivrence .if you set your braise height too high ,it lands lower if you set your braise hight too low its also land lower There is a sweet spot in every bow .its due to the distence that differs when the arrow is released : braise height too high : arrow releases sooner !braise height too low it releases later with less energy .These diffrences are pretty hard to detect at short distances
Our experiences are not based on a scientific inviroment I wished That these big Bow Manufacturers would shed some knowledge on these subject .
A logical approach:
An increased brace height is achieved with a shorter string, so both at rest and full draw, the limbs are closer together and therefore there will be an (admittedly slightly) higher tension on the string, resulting in an apparently very small increase in draw weight, but an increase none the less.
As for arrow speed, the string pushes the arrow harder, but for a shorter distance, as it is stopped in its tracks sooner.
Thanks for testing the real world magnitude of these variables!
go Army Path Finder
This is not agurate sciens. If bracehight tuning is making arrow go to 2" left or right. Then it is so slidely different that you can't mesure it. But arrow will fly strate from that tuning.
+Bicycle sunday
Never said it was accurate science. It was a simple test to see if there was anything to what I was told about it making an arrow go faster. No increase in draw weight (unless magic occurs, no more energy is going to be transmitted into the arrow), speeds only 1 to 2 fps indifference. There is nothing to indicate that it is true. Everything points to the opposite. If it was so true, there would have been more indications of it and there wasn't.
+Bicycle sunday that 2 inch difference, i think is because of a longer flight path for the arrow. because it has an inch more room to fly, it will oscilate differently at the moment of the nock release. when it flies of your finger the string also gets a kick sideways. because of that longer flightpath it will release the nock slightly more left/right
The way I look at it is, with the 7.5 Brace height, the string hangs on to the arrow for a inch more before coming to an abrupt stop therefore giving the arrow a greater push. I tend to find the lower the Brace height the higher the arrow hits the target and I have to aim lower.
Power stroke...
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