Since I shoot both trad and Olympic, I understand the importance of back tension and agree with almost all of your comments. I think a few additional points might help those who are struggling with this issue or have not yet realized the importance of BT. For a great many trad archers, the difficulty in achieving BT begins with poor alignment. Poor alignment makes BT difficult if not impossible. A great many trad archers I see are over bowed which makes proper alignment and BT difficult. Snap shooting, whether due to being overbowed or poor technique, also does not help. Finally a high anchor makes it difficult to engage the rhomboid muscles and achieve BT. Watch Jake K videos as further proof. He has decided to compromise on a large crawl in order to maintain a lower anchor enabling him to achieve good alignment and BT.
As an oly shooter one of the best tools to enhance your follow through and back tension is an astra shot trainer. You simply cannot use it and collapse or throw your release without noticing.
I shoot an Olympic setup and I'm not sure that I agree with what you say here. The clicker isn't the key to a clean release, learning a correct transfer is. This is something that I struggled with for a long time, I eventually started to do the pull straight back that you demonstrated here, and it was somewhat successful, but not enough to be competitive with a target bow. It also caused me to fatigue rather quickly. A little while ago I spent a couple of weeks shooting with a really light bow (16# Samick Polaris) with light carbon arrows. It became extremely noticeable with this setup that expanding straight back caused the arrows to do a mid-air wiggle and land to the right at 18m (right handed). I then figured out the step that many coaches struggle to explain. Target archers include a step in their shot process that they call "transfer", where they move the load of the bow from the draw arm and shoulder to their back. Since I have hypermobile shoulders this step eluded me. With a light bow however I found that if I relax the upper arm into the shoulder joint it made the arrows go straight. This removed tension in the shoulder that pulled the release sideways. Doing this I can also move my draw shoulder around into my back (squeezing the scapular together) which brings my draw arm into alignment. This also means I can use an anchor more forward on the face, so for an under the jaw anchor I don't have to bring the string past the corner of the jaw any more. Looking back, I was overdrawing by a significant amount. My draw length has decreased by about half an inch, purely from relaxing the shoulder. The weight of the bow is now supported by skeletal structure, rather than muscle. The tension in the back causes the elbow to come around during expansion and release rather than straight back, which results in a natural, clean release which isn't inhibited by shoulder tension. Eliminating shoulder tension also means that I can also shoot all day without fatigue. This is the difference between elite target archers and everyone else. I just wish someone had told me this years earlier.
Then you did not hear what I said. The clicker is because they have to continue to “pull” the arrow. Trad archers reach anchor and actually hold it in place.
@@TradArchery101 You did not listen to what he said, the ROLL of the shoulder transfers the weight to the skeletal structure and offers a perfect release, drawing the shoulder strait back is Not the correct move.
I heard what he said, and that is not what the video is about. It is about Trad archers holding at full draw. That holding at full draw is what causes issues and if they look to Olympic archers they will see they never stop their draw. The video is not about how the do that. The reason for that is the mechanics of drawing to an Olympic anchor is different than drawing to a cheekbone anchor.
Thanks Greg for using your own mistakes as a learning tool for the rest of us. Have a few of those micro collapses, but probably not as micro as yours!!! You are helping us to think about what we do with a bit more clarity.
for anyone struggling with back tension, just look at Tom Clum's "Solid" archery course. It will help anyone. He explains it great. And shows proper form in every phase of the shot.
@@TradArchery101 simple google search takes care of that, What I said is true. Nobody will ever say its not worth it! I'll bet you it would help you. I've watched you for years and mean no disrespect. But the course is great. And you still have trouble.
Not saying anything bad about the course. But I do know RUclips and people expect if you recommend something, to also tell them where to find it and how much it cost. I get that suggestion all the time from my videos. I use a bunch of what Tom teaches. He has great information, met him a while back at ETAR and I always credit him for anything I learned and use from him.
Hi Greg, Great content and information. I learned a lot from watching and listening to you, and am applying these concepts to my own shooting. I think it might also be important for us trad archers/bowhunters to lessen our draw weight as we learn and put into practice a (new) concept to help improve muscle memory.
Craig you might want to review NuSensei's session on Leading with the elbow and Elton Wong of Barebow Basics Back Tension presentation, watched them all this morning. All good. I will find time to watch all of them again and take notes. Thank you again. Is there a link to the 3d site?
Thank you for showing your posture. I practiced like what you told on the Barebow. I need to have a finger string but I saw many traditional archers not having that. Moreover the posture looks like bending the head down or bending the bow. The Barebow style should be used for traditional archery.
@@TradArchery101 I was just shooting a bunch of wood arrows, all bareshaft, spines of 20 working up to 45/50 on a cut past center bow and it seemed like varying shaft lengths caused different results for indicating nock high or nock low or somehow the varying spine was also affecting nock high or low. Left right variances were not wild, but I was only 12 yds away and bow is cut past center. I didn't realize arrow length was going to affect my nocking point.
@@TradArchery101 agree completely! My main item of curiosity is if arrow length does indeed affect nock high or nock low. I thought that once the right nocking point is found and nothing is changed on the bow, that any arrow with the same diameter would be good to go, but based on what I'm seeing there is more to nocking point than that, any thoughts? I do not string walk or crawls. Maybe it's just a wood arrow thing due to natural variations from batch to batch of arrows even....I don't have alum or carbon arrows to test lengths with.
Hello A while back and I'm not sure which video or whether or not it was on this channel or Archery 101, you mentioned about your point before you draw on the spot you want to hit, would automatically set your gap. If you could provide me with the link to it I would greatly appreciate it. I try to explain to people and they don't get what I'm trying to say. Thank you. Aaron
started shooting asiatic earlier this year of course the paradox becomes a whole new ballgame once we go to bows even with such a small difference as no shelf and we start shooting from the thumb side of the bowhand. so that brings i to the technique called khatra. i will presume You know what i am talking about. so there's a couple of hacks i came across to make the technique work, pre loading the side khatra with the angle of the bowhand on the bow so that once released the tension automatically performs khatra for us, it works but it's a cheat. it maybe turns out back tension is what i should be using to trigger the technique and so cause the bow to have moved clear enough of the arrow that the fletchings do not impact the bow and effect flight. talk about a mission! 😂 challenging to say the least.
Okay, that is a form of Field Archery and it is not too popular here in the US and non existent here I live. If you want to see me shoot, check out my other channel, 3D Archery.
I think there's a big chunk of personality involved in this. If I take my own club as an example, the archers who would be considered 'trad' all shoot badly with zero back tension and poor alignment. The recurve archers, less so. They only shoot 20yds so they see a fair sized group and this outcome makes them believe they're shooting well. The trad archers also all show the same personailty traits of huge egos, heightened opinions of themselves, an import on being a big man, they don't have coaches because "why do i need a coach, I'm a great archer, I don't need all tgat stuff on my bow that you 'need'...". They just bang away at targets close-up without realising that we have eight year olds doing the same thing but who will go on to shoot the same sized groups at much greater distances. They'll also be heard saying things like, "why do i need to shoot 100yds, I know how to walk". The trad group is also likely to be dressed for war, drive 4x4, talk about how they could knock animsls over with their arrows, blah blah... So the reason trad archers don't shoot properly is nothing to do with bowstyle but everything to do with personality: they cannot shelve their ego enough to be coached, they do not progress as fast as some one who can swallow their pride and ask for help, so they migrate to 'trad' where they dwell amongst the like-minded in the "we're different" echo-chamber, with the security of "this is more difficult than recurve because we don't have all the aids to shooting of other bow styles" to hide their inabilities. I have demonstrated to beginner groups how I can shoot wrong-handed snd wrong-eyed, a 12# bow way too small for me, with badly matched arrows with zero alignment and shoot tight groups at close range in an effort to make them buy into getting coaching, early in their shooting career. Too many archers conflate a tight group at close range with having good technique. I hope my demonstration proves otherwise. There is usually some dickhead who misses the point and shouts out "yeah but you're a good archer". That dickhead usually quits early or goes on to be.... ....a trad archer.
Even barebow is full of some real goofball form. Watch the Lancaster Barebow competition, some of the stuff there is just ridiculous. Definitely possible to have proper alignment and back tension with traditional recurve, whether or not it's been trained is another story.....
Yeah it's easy to shoot well at 20yds, all you need is for your terrible form to be consistent. Lots of trad guys seem to just act like it's normal not to be able to hit things past 40yrds when you don't have a sight and stablizers on a bow. I hate to say it but I found when I was coaching people the ones that couldn't shoot well and refused to take shooting form seriously usually became trad archers. They would say some nonsense like "you don't aim when your throwing a stone" and use that to justify never thinking about shooting form.
Great video Greg. I've studied this subject a lot, and I think Tom explains it really well in this video. Another thing that has helped me a lot, is rather than thinking about releasing the arrow, I think about just relaxing my hand. ruclips.net/video/nr3F96kqv9k/видео.htmlsi=D892PKzQKi9_RNks
Since I shoot both trad and Olympic, I understand the importance of back tension and agree with almost all of your comments. I think a few additional points might help those who are struggling with this issue or have not yet realized the importance of BT. For a great many trad archers, the difficulty in achieving BT begins with poor alignment. Poor alignment makes BT difficult if not impossible. A great many trad archers I see are over bowed which makes proper alignment and BT difficult. Snap shooting, whether due to being overbowed or poor technique, also does not help. Finally a high anchor makes it difficult to engage the rhomboid muscles and achieve BT. Watch Jake K videos as further proof. He has decided to compromise on a large crawl in order to maintain a lower anchor enabling him to achieve good alignment and BT.
Have tried Jake K's anchor style for for trad and barebow, and you are right, much easier to get back tension.
As an oly shooter one of the best tools to enhance your follow through and back tension is an astra shot trainer. You simply cannot use it and collapse or throw your release without noticing.
I shoot an Olympic setup and I'm not sure that I agree with what you say here. The clicker isn't the key to a clean release, learning a correct transfer is.
This is something that I struggled with for a long time, I eventually started to do the pull straight back that you demonstrated here, and it was somewhat successful, but not enough to be competitive with a target bow. It also caused me to fatigue rather quickly.
A little while ago I spent a couple of weeks shooting with a really light bow (16# Samick Polaris) with light carbon arrows. It became extremely noticeable with this setup that expanding straight back caused the arrows to do a mid-air wiggle and land to the right at 18m (right handed). I then figured out the step that many coaches struggle to explain.
Target archers include a step in their shot process that they call "transfer", where they move the load of the bow from the draw arm and shoulder to their back. Since I have hypermobile shoulders this step eluded me. With a light bow however I found that if I relax the upper arm into the shoulder joint it made the arrows go straight. This removed tension in the shoulder that pulled the release sideways.
Doing this I can also move my draw shoulder around into my back (squeezing the scapular together) which brings my draw arm into alignment. This also means I can use an anchor more forward on the face, so for an under the jaw anchor I don't have to bring the string past the corner of the jaw any more.
Looking back, I was overdrawing by a significant amount. My draw length has decreased by about half an inch, purely from relaxing the shoulder. The weight of the bow is now supported by skeletal structure, rather than muscle. The tension in the back causes the elbow to come around during expansion and release rather than straight back, which results in a natural, clean release which isn't inhibited by shoulder tension. Eliminating shoulder tension also means that I can also shoot all day without fatigue.
This is the difference between elite target archers and everyone else. I just wish someone had told me this years earlier.
Then you did not hear what I said. The clicker is because they have to continue to “pull” the arrow. Trad archers reach anchor and actually hold it in place.
@@TradArchery101
You did not listen to what he said, the ROLL of the shoulder transfers the weight to the skeletal structure and offers a perfect release, drawing the shoulder strait back is Not the correct move.
I heard what he said, and that is not what the video is about. It is about Trad archers holding at full draw. That holding at full draw is what causes issues and if they look to Olympic archers they will see they never stop their draw. The video is not about how the do that. The reason for that is the mechanics of drawing to an Olympic anchor is different than drawing to a cheekbone anchor.
This is exactly what I've been working on over the past couple of weeks. Thanks Greg as always brilliant content.
Thanks Greg for using your own mistakes as a learning tool for the rest of us. Have a few of those micro collapses, but probably not as micro as yours!!! You are helping us to think about what we do with a bit more clarity.
Great video. Thank you.
Really great video. Glad I stumbled onto your channel.
I get it right sometimes and wrong other times. And I can always tell.
Great Greg, I love to learn
for anyone struggling with back tension, just look at Tom Clum's "Solid" archery course. It will help anyone. He explains it great. And shows proper form in every phase of the shot.
Where can they find it and how much is it? Always include that when you make a recommendation.
@@TradArchery101 simple google search takes care of that, What I said is true. Nobody will ever say its not worth it! I'll bet you it would help you. I've watched you for years and mean no disrespect. But the course is great. And you still have trouble.
Not saying anything bad about the course. But I do know RUclips and people expect if you recommend something, to also tell them where to find it and how much it cost. I get that suggestion all the time from my videos.
I use a bunch of what Tom teaches. He has great information, met him a while back at ETAR and I always credit him for anything I learned and use from him.
Hi Greg, Great content and information. I learned a lot from watching and listening to you, and am applying these concepts to my own shooting. I think it might also be important for us trad archers/bowhunters to lessen our draw weight as we learn and put into practice a (new) concept to help improve muscle memory.
Great information Greg, I think I do it write but I need to check on my form thank you for sharing appreciate ya.
God bless. Happy Thanksgiving 🦃
Great video sir
Excelent!
Craig you might want to review NuSensei's session on Leading with the elbow and Elton Wong of Barebow Basics Back Tension presentation, watched them all this morning. All good. I will find time to watch all of them again and take notes. Thank you again. Is there a link to the 3d site?
Seen everyone’s and everyone has a different way of explaining it. To many are just repeating what they hear.
Thank you for showing your posture. I practiced like what you told on the Barebow. I need to have a finger string but I saw many traditional archers not having that. Moreover the posture looks like bending the head down or bending the bow. The Barebow style should be used for traditional archery.
Does arrow length affect nocking point for straight flight when bareshafting? It seems to for me. Thanks for all the good content!
Interesting, never paid attention. I get the left right down, then work on the vertical.
@@TradArchery101 I was just shooting a bunch of wood arrows, all bareshaft, spines of 20 working up to 45/50 on a cut past center bow and it seemed like varying shaft lengths caused different results for indicating nock high or nock low or somehow the varying spine was also affecting nock high or low. Left right variances were not wild, but I was only 12 yds away and bow is cut past center. I didn't realize arrow length was going to affect my nocking point.
The different length also means different spine. So a 45/50 at 26, is not that at 26 or 30”
@@TradArchery101 agree completely! My main item of curiosity is if arrow length does indeed affect nock high or nock low. I thought that once the right nocking point is found and nothing is changed on the bow, that any arrow with the same diameter would be good to go, but based on what I'm seeing there is more to nocking point than that, any thoughts? I do not string walk or crawls. Maybe it's just a wood arrow thing due to natural variations from batch to batch of arrows even....I don't have alum or carbon arrows to test lengths with.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family bud.
Same to you!
After watching this video I went out and shot a couple dozen arrows from 20yds. I definitely improved. Hopefully I can hang onto it.
Hello
A while back and I'm not sure which video or whether or not it was on this channel or Archery 101, you mentioned about your point before you draw on the spot you want to hit, would automatically set your gap. If you could provide me with the link to it I would greatly appreciate it.
I try to explain to people and they don't get what I'm trying to say.
Thank you.
Aaron
I wish I could remember myself. I might make a video of it down the road, sorry.
started shooting asiatic earlier this year of course the paradox becomes a whole new ballgame once we go to bows even with such a small difference as no shelf and we start shooting from the thumb side of the bowhand.
so that brings i to the technique called khatra.
i will presume You know what i am talking about.
so there's a couple of hacks i came across to make the technique work, pre loading the side khatra with the angle of the bowhand on the bow so that once released the tension automatically performs khatra for us, it works but it's a cheat.
it maybe turns out back tension is what i should be using to trigger the technique and so cause the bow to have moved clear enough of the arrow that the fletchings do not impact the bow and effect flight.
talk about a mission! 😂
challenging to say the least.
I notice you are not eye over arrow. Do you aim down the side of arrow using the point?
Sort of, more like in between the top and side.
Probably the hardest thing I've ever tried to do.
Trad archers will never shot like Olympic archers, it is a completely different sport with different tools.
Not true, many use a modified form of the Olympic Shot Cycle. Tools are not that different, what is different is the level to which they can tune.
practice with a camera and no shirt!
watch the area around your shoulderblades
amazing things happen
I want to see you practicing in 55 yards
Why?
@@TradArchery101 Because, that's the range we shoot our arrows in tournament. I want to see the techniques that you teach being used in real scenario.
Okay, that is a form of Field Archery and it is not too popular here in the US and non existent here I live. If you want to see me shoot, check out my other channel, 3D Archery.
@@TradArchery101 okay
I think there's a big chunk of personality involved in this. If I take my own club as an example, the archers who would be considered 'trad' all shoot badly with zero back tension and poor alignment. The recurve archers, less so. They only shoot 20yds so they see a fair sized group and this outcome makes them believe they're shooting well.
The trad archers also all show the same personailty traits of huge egos, heightened opinions of themselves, an import on being a big man, they don't have coaches because "why do i need a coach, I'm a great archer, I don't need all tgat stuff on my bow that you 'need'...". They just bang away at targets close-up without realising that we have eight year olds doing the same thing but who will go on to shoot the same sized groups at much greater distances. They'll also be heard saying things like, "why do i need to shoot 100yds, I know how to walk".
The trad group is also likely to be dressed for war, drive 4x4, talk about how they could knock animsls over with their arrows, blah blah...
So the reason trad archers don't shoot properly is nothing to do with bowstyle but everything to do with personality: they cannot shelve their ego enough to be coached, they do not progress as fast as some one who can swallow their pride and ask for help, so they migrate to 'trad' where they dwell amongst the like-minded in the "we're different" echo-chamber, with the security of "this is more difficult than recurve because we don't have all the aids to shooting of other bow styles" to hide their inabilities.
I have demonstrated to beginner groups how I can shoot wrong-handed snd wrong-eyed, a 12# bow way too small for me, with badly matched arrows with zero alignment and shoot tight groups at close range in an effort to make them buy into getting coaching, early in their shooting career. Too many archers conflate a tight group at close range with having good technique. I hope my demonstration proves otherwise. There is usually some dickhead who misses the point and shouts out "yeah but you're a good archer". That dickhead usually quits early or goes on to be....
....a trad archer.
Even barebow is full of some real goofball form. Watch the Lancaster Barebow competition, some of the stuff there is just ridiculous. Definitely possible to have proper alignment and back tension with traditional recurve, whether or not it's been trained is another story.....
Yeah it's easy to shoot well at 20yds, all you need is for your terrible form to be consistent. Lots of trad guys seem to just act like it's normal not to be able to hit things past 40yrds when you don't have a sight and stablizers on a bow.
I hate to say it but I found when I was coaching people the ones that couldn't shoot well and refused to take shooting form seriously usually became trad archers. They would say some nonsense like "you don't aim when your throwing a stone" and use that to justify never thinking about shooting form.
Great video Greg. I've studied this subject a lot, and I think Tom explains it really well in this video.
Another thing that has helped me a lot, is rather than thinking about releasing the arrow, I think about just relaxing my hand.
ruclips.net/video/nr3F96kqv9k/видео.htmlsi=D892PKzQKi9_RNks