Color Scientist Explains the Problem with RGB Lights
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2019
- Connect with Ted Sim
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Ted Sim and Quasar color scientist Tim Kang compare common LED lights in the filmmaking market and take a look at the subtle differences between them. We also sit down with Tim to talk about things you didn't know about RGB lights and the biggest problem with using them.
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#Lights #Cinematography #Filmmaking - Кино
It's so rare to see this level of involved, honest sharing of knowledge on youtube. It's even more rare to get it from people with commercial interest in the products used. To put your own products next to the most high end and not break a sweat showing all the results to educate users on the fundamentals of color science is such an involved thing to do. thank you! You are an inspiration to which a lot of company's should aspire to.
Mark Meerdam if you like this in-depth look at a topic i recommend Technology connections. he also did a video on this but also in-depth videos on other technology topics like cd’s laserdiscs.
You Just watch the wrong videos. This seems about average from what I've seen.
altaccout me?
I dunno what it is about it, but this video seems a bit slanted to me.
This is one of the most enlightening (see what I did there) videos I have watched in a really long time. This was definitely worth the full 18 minutes and 44 seconds. Amazing content it's hard to believe I got all this info for free 🙏
THE KING. Love your work, man!
Tiny detail, but you could have done the wipes top to bottom instead of left to right. In that case both versions of any colored cloth would have been on screen simultaneously. Otherwise super interesting and well done video :)
Lee and Rosco should throw money at you for this.
This was one of your best videos this year. I'll be using it a reference for many people.
This is great stuff. Please do more of this super technical and expert stuff. Love the channel now
thanks for tuning in! Please pass it forward. Tim is the real deal and there's a lot of misinformation out there even on the very high-end of filmmaking.
Great knowledge. I love you guys .
@@indymogul Agree with @Samuel Tabotta on how great the technical stuff is, as I mentioned above this opened my eyes to the fact that something I developed for lab use might have a use for film, and still camera photography :) If you want to talk about more in depth about it over DM on skype, Discord or some other app @ me and I can even cobble a larger version together of one, to send for you to do some testing and see if it is more useful than having to manually change gels since using RGB to create a gel effect for the camera seems to be out as a use case, at least till we get around to making LEDs that actually produce every spectrum say with my multi material nanotube with LED and other semiconductor crystal molecular arrays embedded in them for ultra high power laser diodes that have next to no heat generation (thus super efficient, to make hand held lasers and even bio-activated laser formation from say someones eyes, while giving perfect focus with out moving parts of the eyes, for those that have had to have cataract correction surgery. :)
@@ThomasAndersonbsf Did we watch the same video? I saw three minutes worth of content stretched over 18 minutes of improve. It was ridiculous.
@@recompile I saw 18 minutes of good information and 3 minutes of improv.
This is truly eye-opening and I’m truly surprised not to have heard about this before. Incredibly informative.
This shows that everything you hear on any other reviewer's videos is so uninformed
did you not have physics in school? We learned this in like 8th grade
Missed physics class in school?
@@Katze822228 - Bullshit. Your physics class did not cover this.
The time spent watching this video had a crazy return on investment 👊🏼 I had never seen a lot of these tests before and it’s so powerful to see their real world impact
Yes, this problem happens with all RGB lights powered by LED technology. This problem is not brand-specific. It will happen with all industry standard fixtures on the high-end or low-end. We're two LED lighting companies and yes -- it will happen with our fixtures as well. If you're looking for lights, remember RGB < RGBW < RGBA < RGBWW. Also know that basically all just daylight or tungsten LEDs will not have this problem. We're working towards breaking through this problem with technology. But in the meanwhile, if you've been dealing with this problem, we just want you to understand what you're up against and how to succeed. - T
I love your transparency, and how you encourage consumers to be more knowledgeable so they can understand why they want better gear.
It seems like "daylight" LED is mostly safe though. As long as the "daylight" isn't a result of RGB mixing?
@@norriscreation yes. Tungsten white LEDs are the best that the technology currently offers, but future tech like the EtherLED we showed is going to be just as good, if not better, than HMI to match daylight. Right now, daylight LEDs at their best are almost as good as tungsten LEDs. They differ in that they render subtle hue shifts and saturation increases with any colored objects that have blue wavelengths. That explains why it's upper 70s instead of 80s. You will also see potentially more issues when shooting with film with daylight and using daylight LED to match.
I didn't understand why RGB lights have this limitation. Does each node just deliver too narrow of a spectrum? And why would that be the case if we have LEDs that can reproduce a daylight spectrum pretty accurately to our eyes and the camera? I'm sure I still just need to learn some more about color science. Any in depth sources would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
@@ADD1770 yes - if you look at the yellow gel vs RGB yellow diagram towards the end, you can see how narrow these spectral fingerprints are. The green diode spectrum "misses" the orange spectrum, so you get mostly only red reflecting back.
Daylight LEDs and RGBA units have more information in the spectrum to fill out the gaps. But they are still not perfect and can have gaps in the spectral output that our eyes can't see on a gray card, but we can see on certain colored objects. Or, we may not see an issue, but a camera may see more issues.
This was insanely mind-blowing. I wish I had seen this before I filmed my short this past weekend, but this makes me hopeful for the shorts I make in the future.
glad to hear it. Thanks for tuning in.
Lol me too. Were you filming the aputure light this location shortfilm?
Learning about spectroscopy in astronomy this actually makes a ton of sense.
There is a lot of overlap. Studying light (the whole electromagnetic spectrum) is the most fantastic and amazing subect ever as far as I think. From the birth of our universe and then stars all the way to the way light shines off some water lillies waiting to be captured on canvass, LIGHT RULES!
Blueskin Blake Haha, although light studies don't intrigue me that much, it's cool that your're THAT interested :)
@@EddieKMusic thanks, I love to talk light, I start beaming with excitment!
@@EddieKMusic could not resist- apologies
@@blueskinblake9935 You just gave me a whole new section to go look for in the library ;)
I learned more in this 18 minutes than I learned in a semester of physics. Love this!
CineLab: There was probably more info to be learnt that semester, though, so, that's on you.
@@Mew__ :/ putting the blame solely on a student for learning material poorly when profs and course materials are capable of sucking too is super reductive, dude.
@@sweetpeabee4983: Internet and international source material. That's how I study physics at uni.
Conclusion: Don't trust the RGB settings on your LED lights.
Thank you guys. I learned more with your video than in my 10 years of LED experience...
I'm light technician and I was surprised when saw the Orange amplis (we have a lot of Rock & Metal concerts) aren't so orange as we saw in my light shows and, now I know what to do .
the light doesn't change your perception of color, its literally changing color. your eyes are just absorbing the new color that it is.
Idk. Like, if something has the physical property that it only reflects blue light, even if it appears black in candle light, it seems plausible that you might still call it a blue object because it is still *capable* of reflecting blue light, just your eyes aren't seeing it in that light. But again, idk. This seems more a matter of philosophy than anything.
@@sweetpeabee4983 That's not what the OP said. Your perception of color will change when you do the right drug for example. Not because there is a different ratio of photon energies.
There are Optical Illusions, but those tend to be mostly geometric, or for color using persistence of vision. So just keep looking and your perception of the color returns to normal.
@@sweetpeabee4983 you need photons for color, so in the dark the blue looks black because there are no photons, but the object will still reflect light as blue.
Loved this video! Thanks for tackling this. 👍💜
Great tips. Thank you! Did anyone else noticed both mics playing at 16:30-16:37?
I love the new audio setup for the interviews, it adds a lot to it, thank you very much!
The skin tones and RGB make SO MUCH sense now. I was always wondering why I would have skin tone issues with one setup but not the other.
Fantastic video! Super helpful to see the visual demonstrations. Keep it up!
This is huge!!! I've had similar dicussion with my professors in college but nothing this in depth. 20 mins of pure gold!! Thank you guys so much!! 🙏 Sharing with my friends 🤘
glad to hear it! Please definitely pass it forward.
Extremely informative! I have often wondered why things sometimes just 'don't look right' and now after this video - it makes perfect sense!
This has opened my eyes to a whole new perspective on lighting-coming from a guy who was wanting to spend a ton of money on RGB lighting. I'll get the one tunable RGB light, but I think I'll also be getting real gels for color-accurate lighting. Thank you so much.
You may also want to have a few UVA and UVB emitters when simulating day light. Most people and cameras can't see it but many common materials fluoresce in visible ways under UV light and that visible fluorescents can even be strikingly different depending on whether it is being stimulated by UVA or UVB light.
Maybe even near IR.
Fantastic video. Thanks for taking the time to make this. It is really refreshing to hear from people that actually show and demonstrate what they say. Great job!
Damn, I love the times we're living in. So much knowledge just laying around on youtube...
That was awesome, thank you for your hard work making extremely good content.
Aw, I wish you guys used a Rubik's Cube for demonstration.
Check out the thumbnail for The Weird World in RGB by Technology Connections.
Man, you are providing great content. Keep doing this interviews and discussions. The amount of knowledge on these are incredible! ✌️
So nice to watch an episode where you're a bit calmer, Ted :) informative and eye-opening to me as well, good stuff!
would be cool to see these experiments redone with a dark skin-toned model included. Very informative.
My Cinematography teacher was really emphatic on how to light darker skinned people properly. He said that cinema had done Black actors a serious disservice, and I would agree with that sentiment.
Our model didn't show, so we only went over the information that was in the image.
Black skin reflects light a bit more so you have to be sure red is represented adequately or you end looking jaundiced or ashy. Adding a oil based moisturizer allows for some interesting colour manipulation but yeah like you I'd need to see it done here. I think with Black skin you have to use shadow deliberately to get what you want. So casting colour is nice but not over exposing is key.
@@johnmcnally7812 Hurr durr black peepo is victimz
That's gaslighting and it does a disservice to blacks.
@@FFFan3445
Nobody was trying to say it was intentional or some kind of conspiracy
Most people (even professional photographers) dont fully understand how colour works and a halfassed job is still a disservice.
If I tried to fix your car and broke it more, it doesnt matter if I did so intentionally, it is still a disservice.
Fascinating info - thanks for this Ted and Tim!
Curtis, you're one of the greats when it comes to quality of knowledge on RUclips.
What up Curtis! Been watching your content for a minute.
@@LuisFernandoImperator Thanks Fernando!
@@DoItWithDave Hey Dave - good to hear from you!
Love it! Great information for filmmakers out there with the misconceptions of RGB lighting, which I honestly had the same thoughts lol. So thank you for helping clear up a few things! Loving all the collabs and informative content!
Indy Mogul's videos are my 'go-to' for cutting edge technical film information! Love you guys and thank you! :D
Loved this video, really hope for more advanced stuff in future. Helped me decide against a Godox, purely gonna hold out for the right light that isn't going to skew my colours. Thank you!
fantastic to finally see this explained properly with the spectrums shown. a key takeaway is that yellow can appear to be shown by using RGB lights, but thats just our brain compositing it. yellow is an actual wavelength which you need to push out of lights to illuminate a scene
I wish there's more Ted and Tim collabs. They really gelled together for this knowledge drop
That was super fascinating. Thanks, Ted and Tim!
Thank you for covering this! I've felt like I've just been talking into the void on this subject. So great to see all these tests! This is exactly why I still have all of my gels & use them all the time. Linking this video will save me so much time, thank you. (I'm still looking forward to the Aputure Nova 300 RGBWW panel LED).
You bet man. We had a lot of fun talking about this and Tim is incredible when it comes to his knowledge and passion for the topic. As for the Nova -- you can bet that everything you'll see from Aputure moving forward will be RGBWW at the very least. This is despite the very real cost of adding that extra W chip, even for our little lights like the MC and the Accent Bulbs.
@@chaopka I can't wait! Aputure just went to the next with this new technology. I love how I can use my vast array of photography Bowen's mount soft boxes and octabanks, and that Leko attachment tho. I look forward to LEDs that constantly improve the quality of light, (& increased output, but mostly quality). Thanks again!
Thank you so much! Truly educational. I have been doing lighting design for my local community theatre for about a year using Tungsten lights, and we recently made the switch to LED stage lights, with RGBW chips. I had a hard time adjusting, and I just didn't like the difference between the tungstens and LEDs, but I didn't know exactly why that was the case. But now I understand, and I appreciate this video a lot!
Nice. Really interesting, I've got answers of questions I was asking myself and everyone since years ago, and nobody ever gave me a clear answer. Thank you guys from France !
Fantastic content!
At first I thought this was focusing on subtleties between brands, but the back half of the of the video was really illuminating. No pun intended... it really opened my eyes to the differences between how I perceive an LED light source and how a camera perceives an LED light source. I might need to re-evaluate some of my amateur equipment choices and break out my gels more often. I've been blaming my camera, but I should really blame my light source.
i always recommend a small packet of gels with my quasar qlion kit. it's important to still have accurate white light behind those gels too.
I'm glad this channel has become relevant and popular again! I've missed it!! This is a great new format!
One of the best lighting videos I've ever seen. Thank you for the information!
Probably one of the best videos you guys have made. Really good and fast information
Great and very informative video. Also a big plus for Quasar for showing real life results that can help in your work.
Thank you so much for this video! There's been instances where I've really struggled in post with colors, because it looked red or yellow on set but garbage in editing and now I finally understand what's going on! I'm forwarding this to so many people!
Thank you for this feedback! This is the exact realization we hope would happen.
Loved this video! Please more advanced concepts like this, I almost bought tunable rgb lights thinking I would have so many great looking options to film with.
You can still do a lot with RGBWW lights! The lesson is to test things out to understand for yourself and your workflow what will work for you.
Awesome video. Thank you so much fro dropping the knowledge bombs on us. A really complicated concept broken down over less than 20 minutes until it can easily understood by anyone. Love it!
this was PHENOMENAL! thanks for the info
You're welcome! Tim is an amazing and talented guy.
Excellent video! This really dials in the need for a light meter and good set of gels on set.
This was an exceptional video! Every designer deals with this. The set will look great but the stills and even film afterwards doesn't capture the yellows and oranges. Recently had a campaign shot involving a model positioned by a glowing object and meant to hve yellow reflected light over her upper body. I basically had to paint the effects in the final images which made me wonder why we paid for the lighting at all
let's just say, this video came out of suffering similar experiences out of life, not out of theory. ;-)
omg - tim is the best - Thank you both for creating this video as a tool of communication!
much love.
Technology connections made a video that covers this in a more accessible way.
He kicked off so many youtubers making similar videos
Yup, I can't recommend his channel enough. He covers complex subjects in a way a complete layman can understand.
Was it better? I thought he waffled on showing lots of examples for too long and not getting to the underlying science. This video shows the spectra (plural of spectrum) and seems to get to the point quicker.
Yeah I'm tired of hangers on
Be original for once
This was really an eye opener! Thank you for this video! :)
Great insight! Thanks for this conversation!
Legitimately good and very informative eye-opening video.
Glad to see Indy Mogul is still going strong over 10 years later!
That was very interesting. The white light with the gel has more tonal value because it's not limited like the trimmed specific frequency.
Definitely about to do some more research and experiment with the lights I have now thank you for this 🙏🏼
Every time someone watches a new camera review RUclips should require them to watch something valuable like this video.
Excellent job of explaining how what you see isn't always what you get. I had my doubts I'd understand this tech video, but I totally got what you were saying.
This is incredible content. Learned so much, thank you! And thank you Quasar for being so open and honest.
Wow. Super amazing information all for free. Thank you Indy Mogul keep doing great stuff.
I find this subject super fascinating, thanks for putting this up!
My mind is blown. This requires a rewatch. Thanks for creating a video on this topic.
This is the most valuable video I’ve watched in months- thanks!
Excellent demo of Tim’s Quasar Science research. Thanks for doing this !
What an amazing episode! Thank you! 🍀
The greatest video I have seen in a while, extremely helpful, thank you
This was AMAZING! More of this. My inner and outer nerd loved every minute.
Great stuff! Thanks for your videos!!
Very informative! :-) Thank you for taking the time to share this information.
Damn guys, you’ve been absolutely killing it lately! Really loving the in-depth look you’re giving into the thought process of so many professional filmmakers. I’ve learnt so much about lighting, sound, framing, social engagement and more from these sick videos and hope you’ll make manyy more. Skkrtt congrats 🔥🔥🔥
so glad to hear it! Thanks for supporting and tuning into the show.
Wow this is so informative! Really important info that is not widely known! thank you so much for these videos. As an aspiring cinematographer this is invaluable!
Helpful AF! Love your videos man
This episodes keep getting better and better every time!
I literally just ran into this problem last week! The red LED light came out pale orange on camera, but the light that was cast from the light was red. Good video!
This was great dive into the depth and information. Hell, I'm a working DoP on moderate sized projects here in LA and I learned a ton!
Truly useful in depth information. Thank you so much!
Fucking fantastic video, guys. Great that you two got together for this. I'm only finally getting into gels.
The thing with these issues is that as a result, theatre companies in the UK are extremely against changing to LED.
while its all well and good showing the issues at hand and discussing them, i would personally argue that a slight downfall in overall color replication (for the human eye anyway, since most theatre shows arent filmed) is far better when it saves upwards of 900 watts of energy on average.
And that's not even considering that LED lights can be smaller, lighter, and more flexible. Theatre companies don't have to stuck with mostly overhead lighting.
Tempted to send this video to a friend of mine who got mad that I took a photo of one of my drawings and edited it to make it closer to reality bc that was "lying."
He doesn't seem to understand how drastically light can effect your perception of an image and a color, especially when taken out of the context of it's surroundings. The amount of an effect lighting can have on how we see an image is absurdly powerful.
really interesting video guys thank you for sharing
Fantastic video with great details. Thanks!
Without knowing this at all, I went the gel + daylight led route just because it was the cheapest combo.. Turns out it's the most effective also, great! :D
I was in two minds about getting a bicolour LED light or just a daylight LED or Tungstate LED light because of price. But now I know it's better and cheaper to use gels. Is daylight LED better, worse or the same as Tungsten LED to use with gels? Why did you go with daylight instead of tungsten? Advantages / disadvantages? Thanks! 👍
@@tubeman1983 I prefer daylight since it's the one (kelvin) that I use the most anyway. I feel like it's easier to gel 5600k as a starting point since I use 3200k, 5600k and 6500k+, making 5600k the middle. You will also find 5600k leds to have the highest output of light compared to rgb or bi-color. With bi-color the highest output is the middle (combined the warm led + cool led), so if you use 3200k the most, you will loose 50% of light if 5600k is the middle, get my point?
@@bliiblaablue Thanks for your insight!
Might be the most helpful video ever. I KNEW gels looked better than light presets but I never actually investigated to find out if I was just seeing things that weren't really there...this cleared that up completely.
That is a LOOOOOOOOOT of information to drop in under 19 minutes. Thanks guys for an informative video!
i noticed the difference in a shoot but wasn't sure of the specifics, this is awesome
I want to give this video a million likes. Thank you so damn much, these infos are so essential to my all day life and i never understood what was going on. So helpful!
Thanks, it answered a lot of my questions.
I was hoping for a fight scene with your light brands as weapons but this was very informative. Thanks!
You're blinding me with science!
Excellent video for the nerds among us.
Great examples - thanks. We shoot with strobes for product photography, but have experimented with LED for smaller products and see color issues like this pop up.
Very good content and explenation. Thanks for that.
Thank you for the shared knowledge!
Does the same RGB color shift phenomenon apply to bi-color LED technology?
No, this is strictly the narrow band R, G, and B diodes used in everything.
I was thinking the same. Hopefully not.
@@timkang1980 if I had to choose between only tungsten LED and only daylight LED to use with gels to get different colour temperatures which one would it better? Thank you! :)
This is so informative thankyou so much guys for this loved it
I work in TV news and this video explains perfectly why wardrobe colors don't appear correctly on camera in the studio! Time to convince someone to redo the lights... What's that? Not important enough for the expense? Drat...
Really appreciate this video. I thought this was awesome insight and good to know since I have been using a Gemini
Fantastic info! Thanks a lot.
Mind-blowing info. Thank you!
These guys know their stuff. Thought provoking! Informative.
(looks for videos on shooting in black and white...)