Has Your Keyboard Got Too Many Keys?
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- In this video I go into some detail about the layout I'm using on my 16 key keyboard. It has taken me a while to get to this point and I think there are now very few barriers to this keyboard being able to sustain pretty fast typing.
The main thing that makes this layout so unusual is the way we deal with using two layers for the alpha keys. This issue is more complicated than it first seems due to needing to use shifted and non-shifted versions of keys on both layers. I think I have eventually come up with a mechanism that seems to work pretty well.
If you are interested in building your own totally custom keyboard you should watch this video next: • “The REAL Ergonomic Ke...
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Downloads:
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16 key on Moonlander: configure.zsa.io/moonlander/l...
16 key for The Card: github.com/benvallack/zmk-con... (also look through history for 18 and 26 key versions)
Layouts for the Flipper: github.com/benvallack/zmk-con...
34 key layout for the Ferris ZMK: github.com/benvallack/zmk-config
34 key layout for the Ferris QMK: github.com/benvallack/34-QMK-...
Gerber file for The Card: (not actually tested this version, please check carefully!) github.com/benvallack/The-Card
Gerber file for The Flipper: github.com/benvallack/The-Fli...
36 key on The Moonlander: configure.zsa.io/moonlander/l...
34 key on The Moonlander: configure.zsa.io/moonlander/l...
36 key on The Planck EZ: configure.zsa.io/planck-ez/la...
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Contents:
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0:00 Titles
0:11 Intro & Background
3:31 What it Feels Like to Type on
4:35 Dealing With Two Alpha Layers
6:21 Thumb Keys
7:03 The System Layer
9:24 Switching Layers
11:31 Dealing With Capital Letters
13:29 Mouse Emulation
14:25 Symbol And Number Layers
15:33 Punctuation Keys
16:10 Next Steps: Repeat Key & Alpha 2 Caps
17:53 How Fast Will it Go?
18:20 Thumb Key Position
19:20 Summary 
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I'd be really interested in which vim-bindings you use. Do you have your dotfiles somewhere? In general your entire development workflow would be super interesting to see on such a minimal keyboard. Like what do you use besides vim? Tmux? something to manage windows (other than warpd and whatever your OS offers out of the box)?
Ben I'm going to be disappointed at this point if you don't end up using a 1 key Morse code keyboard eventually. Can't wait 😂
This would just be a very complicated tapdance setting in QMK/ZMK I think, right?
Although actually I think Morse code is difficult without a person (or AI) interpreting on the other end unless you've got some serious rhythm haha.
It won't even be a keyboard, instead it will be a butt plug which can be actuated by contracting the sphincter
HAHAHA!!!!
@@marksmod Loll it's like Mr. Garrison's wheel bike thing from south park
could be 2 key dot and dash being distinct key.
2019: I've bought 60% keyboard and it is crazy how small it is! 2023: I will show you how I write using this 4 key keyboard. Also subscribe, as I have plans to reduce the amount of keys.
Steven Hawkins would laugh
its impossible xd
@@mhmd_old7 Steven had to do ot and did it
On today's episode: Ben realizes that he'd rather be a stenographer. 😂
For real though, this evolution has been very entertaining to watch unfold. (Maybe a folding split-board is in the future of portable human computing interfaces)
Cheers mate!
He should try out a plover keyboard sometime. Seems like it would be his style.
@Reclaimer Leviathan and then you realise Stephen Hawking just had a steno typing speech-to-text for 30+ years. It's 2022 and we still see no sign of these input methods, but he was giving lectures this way in the 90s... Surely the tech would've aged enough for me to buy his 90s version for pennies on the dollar, no?
@Reclaimer Leviathan old comment but your sort of talking abt the charachorder one, if you haven’t seen that yet, check it out.
He is on the Plover Discord server (green icon with white asterisk at 5:25), so that is also a good sign he is (was?) headed that way (just doing Steno).
I know the one-key layout joke has been made 100 times now. But I'm just saying, it would make an amazing April Fools' video. Especially because Ben has such a distinctive video style. Picture: the powerful music, the moody slow-motion typing shots, the single-key layer overlays flying around, and then Ben calmly explaining why he's *not* using morse code for his one-key layout.
Hehe!
This comment aged so well!
Can we get a demo where you record yourself writing code in vim? It'd be great to have one half of the screen be your hands and these cool keymap and layer overheads to see you switch between layers while typing and what you do in vim at the side. Something simple like fizzbuzz or sieve of eratosthenes in a language with reasonably many special symbols like typescript, rust or c++ would be really cool to watch imho
Ben has basically become the master of minimal yet functional keyboard setups. He’s not going smaller. So what’s the future? Personally I’d love to see the evolution of a goal of maximum typing and control in mind with minimal hand movement which opens the door to complimenting a streamline keyboard with other approaches like voice commands. The current keyboards need so many layers because many system functions remain. If it was just letters, numbers, main symbols, backspace, return and spacebar however…
I've really enjoyed this series of videos. It's amazing how few keys we can get away with in every day use. I've been slowly trying to figure out what my version of a reduced key count would end up being. Thanks for the inspiration!
Sometimes I really wonder how you do it - pouring out that much detail without even misspeaking once and whether that is the same reason why you learn so fast new layouts and create muscle memory. I followed your journey and this time I actually had to pause a few times and rewind, I just couldn't keep up following your thoughts. End-game-geek? You're amazing!
I saw glimpses of it in your other videos and have been looking forward to the video about it since! Thanks to your videos I'm currently waiting for my GergoPlex and am so excited about it
A stenotype has more keys than this.
Absolutely love the video and respect the dedication it would have taken to get to this point down the rabbit hole
This is such a neat exercise, thanks for sharing. You convinced me to go down to 34 keys and I love it, but I think that's my lower bound 🙂
Another excellent video! I received the moonlander recently and have been incorporating some of your ideas into my layout. These videos are some of the most in-depth and informing ones I've found about alternative key keyboards and ergonomics. I recently started using Talon Voice to control my computer with my voice due to RSI flare up, and it's pretty mind blowing. I never knew anything like that existed. I think you'd be really interested in it from a ergonomic/accessibility/workflow perspective. Scriptable in python and could really complement a minimal or missing keyboard. All the best.
I recently built a 3D printed keyboard with 30 keys (3x10) and a few tricks I found in some of your videos like home row mods and alternate-hand layers. I'm really liking it! Cured my thumb pain from using my previous 48/36/34/32 key keyboards by not having thumb keys
This is wild, I'm very envious of your ability to quickly learn new layouts and become so proficient at them. This weekend I'll be building my first custom keyboard, and I'm doing the sofle, which is a 58 key layout. Even that I'm worried about.
I'm somewhat resentful at those who can easily operate their fingers and have good hand-eye coordination, enabling them to be able to do things like type fast. I have carpal, nerve problems, vision problems. I am slow on a normal keyboard.I could never learn how to use this kind of setup. What kind of mutant does someone have to be to be able to use this stuff? Everything is just soooooo much easier for them.
Do they even know what it's like to constantly get angry and frustrated at dexterity mistakes? When the fingers just do not do what you want them to do, always off by a bit. When "muscle memory" is an impossible thing. F... Ben.
I've been learning ISRT... and is slow going. About 1 new letter per hour spent learning. This after mastering QWERTY (about 30 years ago), and Dvorack (about 20 years ago).
Hey fam how did building the board go ? I recently built one of those, it was also my first keyboard, went perfect
@@peterbelanger4094 would something like a chorded keyboard with one key per finger be usable for you? if so, ASETNIOP might interest you
Always excited for your videos, especially keyboard ones. Keep up the good work
I think if you were to start adding keys back, a good number to add would be 85. That would give you a separate key for each letter and number, and you could even have some dedicated modifier keys for capital letters, symbols and some function keys
but what about capitals? how could capitals be typed without a separate key for them?
Finally! I have been waiting for this update since your last video!
Fascinating. It does seem a bit much but it's such an interesting experiment in what's possible. 83wpm on that layering system without a stenographic method is insane. At this point you are so far down the rabbit hole that it's a lifestyle...
That USB cable adapter is killing me.
Lol
I'm doing the same thing with one half of my Ferris Sweep to charge it, because I don't have enough spare type-c cables.
I want this! Right now I'm using a 60% keyboard (Ducky One 2 Mini) and next week I'll be soldering Ferris Sweep, but man... this 16 key keyboard is yet another level. I'm looking forward to how this evolves. Cheers man!
Great Video as always! Personally I wouldn't like to move my hands as little as possible, because they get cold over time. So a bit more motion isn't bad for me. That's why I will settle in at minimum on 36 keys.
I love watching your keyboard journey. I know portability is one of your things, but i would love to get a case for something like this and materials to make a nice thock sounding ergo board
yeah for sure
I really enjoy your tinkerings!
I've been toying with a handheld keyboard idea. The optimization function is ergonomically bound not efficiency bound but this gives me a lot of ideas! Would be interested if you also pursued a handheld keyboard and made videos.
Seeing the 34 keys video got me hooked! Ordered drop preonic that day (because the planck was out of stock) and 3d printed a handwired planck layout keyboard because of shipping. It came in yesterday with a faulty PCB after waiting 6 weeks and now I am not sure what to do with it as soon as it arrived. Adding a number row back feels like going backwards haha
Typing this on my Colemak-derived two-alpha-layer like you have.
After 3 days I'm already at 50wpm from 80 -- it's surprisingly easy to get used to splitting the letters into separate 2 layers.
For me, it nicely frees up keys in nifty places for system functions and symbols despite having a 36key Corne.
As you mentioned, with QMK home row mods are a pain, so I use simpler toggles on the extra keys you don't have anymore and an OLED to not get lost instead.
Thanks for the inspiration to go the extra step for the letters!
UPDATE, the next day: I am hitting a comfortable 60wpm today, making it totally worth it to switch completely on day 4!!
Because I am not getting lost in multilevel layers that needed special transition combos, I don't get lost nearly as much anymore. Having the layer keys dedicated made working with the keyboard a joy again.
I wish you went more in depth for choosing the alphas for the layout. I struggled for quite a while with shuffling the keys around until I was happy with it.
Day 5: Hitting 65 avg, 80 when I try really hard. At this point, I think it is superior to any other layout.
It is much easier to remember and to learn than any other layout, IMO. This tiny amount of keys is really easy to visualize.
I agree that I don't at all feel that I couldn't go faster. If you can shift letters fast into being uppercase, there is no reason why one couldn't go fast with this too. I still haven't made switching second nature -- it is still `switch then letter` rather than `switch + letter` which feels like the bottleneck now.
I am also realizing how the letter layout almost doesn't even matter for the most part. The worst movement this layout can cause is a double-press same-column-different-row.
Also, the best thing about this is a same-letter-double-press with a layer switch -- it feels so good! I had this with a `
` with a switch to the symbol layer and now I can do the motion everywhere; I love it!!
I got to a really satisfying solution with home row mods on QMK with the help of a blog post by precondition on his github io blog with the title "home-row-mods". If you're interested in home row mods, you should check it out! 🙂
(Sadly I can't post URLs. RUclips keeps deleting those comments.)
@@johnibambohni I did work with home row mods back when I was using a classic colemak. I really didn't like how the keys registered on keyup for these -- it makes the whole typing experience feel floaty -- despite tweaking those settings.
Maybe I should revisit it though! Now some of the writing is not immediate anyway and rolls are not so frequent. I feel like I am still missing a MO(_OS) somewhere for arrows and I don't have the space on the thumb anymore.
I will probably end up putting it on the second alpha layer though -- going through a layer to reach the "definitely not possible to roll" keys is second nature at this point anyway and will probably cause the least confusion.
Thank you for reminding me!
UPDATE, some 2 months later: I am loving the condensed multi-layer keyboard layout -- it was totally worth it for me.
Hitting a consistent 80wpm avg on text. I really feel that when you don't even move to the sides, the precision gets really high. Yes, there is a lot of mistakes done due to the added complexity of how the basic keys are layered, but when you learn the layout, it's really satisfying how rare mistakes get.
With coding, I feel way faster too. I am using the freed up middle row (gh) for enter, escape, backspace and tab.Not doing mistakes helps a lot here -- redoing a line with symbols because of a missed letter takes a long time to rewrite.
Symbols still need some work on my part -- I haven't condensed them yet on that 3x2 box enough and it's holding me back. Will make use of chording combos to make things nicer.
I needed to do a few adjustments on the way for things you don't really realize until it's too late. I was condensing any pinky keys onto the ring finger -- thinking it would help memorization. That was a bad tradeoff, as my ring finger would get tired very easily then.
Oh wow, I had a similar concept layout designed a few years back and called it Homerow. It was kind of similar to this but the keys were in the same row, hence the name. Also instead of having "pinky" buttons I placed my modifiers under each space so I could press both at the same time with my thumb.
Yesterday, Ben opensourced the Card keyboard and within 2 hours I had forked it and started manufacturing with JLCPCB. Super excited to use it. Ben is there anywhere I can send you money for your work? Everything you put out is my favorite content.
Not yet (apart from stickers in the premier) but I super appreciate the sentiment. I will add something soon though, maybe YT membership and/or Patreon.
Could you link where I can find this?
Very excited for this
Such a smooth production and we are only at the trailer stage :)
First of all, I am really impressed. Didn’t even knew that something like this is possible. When you mentioned the repeat key you want to add, were you thinking to set it up as the native vim repeat of did you mean repeating a key combination. I hope my question makes sense, maybe thinking about it this way, would you make it repeat your input to the keyboard or repeat a vim action.
Really interesting series, have been following and you got me hooked on this amazing world of keyboard’s!
I think he meant a repeat of any keyboard key (or key combo). If you do [Alt] + F4, when you press the repeat key the keyboard will send an [Alt] + F4 ([Ctrl} + U was his example).
@@alexdubois6585 thanks! That was what I was thinking, but it all went a bit fast for me. Couldn't really process al that information hahah
For me, a 5x12 layout is my sweet spot, and getting a split layout for that has a few options available.
It's interesting when you bring up doing syllables, that sounds just like when people talk about stenography, which I'm sure you've also seen (or see Mirabai Night + Plover). This still seems faster to pick up than their intensive (but elegant) syllable chording.
You're also getting into chording with the thumb keys, although in a slightly less expressive way. Stenography chording also allows pressing the middle between two letter keys (your grid keys) as another input variant. Look at like 'stenotoppers' where the keys are weighted so little and the keycaps are abutting squares, that you can press the middle gap and press both keys at once. So instead of just thumb key chords, if you pressed both "L" and "S" keys at once, maybe it gives uppercase "L" or some other other layer's key. Could give enough extra inputs to get your 17 key wishlist without adding a key. Mirabai once described it like playing piano, where stenographers keep their hands hovering slightly over and just play out expressive chords, which gives very little strain (tendon and muscle) for 'typing' hours a day
Yeah I find the idea of Steno appealing but not sure I could justify the time to learn it!
Yeah I agree, although it seems you're starting to get a lot its benefits with much less time investment. Which is why I thought co-opting some of their input modalities to extend how many types of inputs you could use, could be interesting. Especially if you're only 1-2 keys away
Nice video! I would have liked to see how you decided what letters should be on the base layer and if you used any efficiency analysers
Yeah it was based on a version of ISRT that had been tweaked to move all the least frequently used keys to the bottom row, I moved them to the second layer and tweaked a bit for a few rolls that felt problematic. Second layer is definitely used a fraction of the time compared to first layer.
Hello, i'm a computer engineer and I found your video extremly interesting. In 2018 I started mapping my whole keyboard into the elite xbox controller v2 with additonal pads. I wish one day we could find the optimal mapping to engaga both keys and mouse for typing and gaming purpose. I will keep looking your content until there. Keep the great work, thanks !
Ps: find out combos are too long but adding both left and right sticks of the controller and pads in combos can solve problems
Please document your journey and share!!!!
:D
I get you've put most common letters on alpha1 and the others on alpha2, but for someone who's not as used to custom layouts What would you think of letters grouped by voicedness ?
while that does mean using the second layer a lot more, I think it could be a little more intuitive, plus you'd never have to hit the same key on different layers (given that a letter and its voicedness counterpart are rarely ever near)
(this is what I came up with to resolve incomplete pairs, sorted alphabetically, then voiceless first, vowels marked uppercase.)
AO, pb, cq, td, EU, fv, kg, hj, IY, lr, mn, sz, xw
I especially love the elegance of the 3key system combo.
I wonder, do you ever run into issues where you meant to perform a combo but accidentally doubletap (or the key simply bounces and double registers) resulting in a key input for the combo capture ?
What about the opposite problem, perhaps typing 'lean' with a sloppy roll could accidentally trigger the caps.
Is this a problem that can be worked around in software, or do you simply have to type that much more carefully ?
(an example of a software fix for the given example would be to make the timing window for the 'nea' shortcut much tighter if detected in the 'ean' order, which is the only permutation I can think of being used in english)
This is the first of your small keyboard videos where I haven't actually wanted to try it out myself after watching. Not because the information wasn't well presented or the content isn't interesting, but rather I think I've found the point where my own uses wouldn't be met with this. Because of your work and this channel though, I am looking at trying out a Corne. I've already gone fairly deep with customizing my own 65% keyboard, but I can now see how inefficient a lot of my movements are. What a cool way to optimize a workflow.
Yeah I think going from 65% to this would be quite a jump. But if you are seeing the benefit of going to a corne now then give yourself 6 months and you never know!
I think there are arrangments of 4x12 that are close enough to QWERTY that I could move back and forth, and that sets the limit for me. It would be very difficult for me to NOT still have to use QWERTY keyboards.
@@BenVallack It's 5 months later and now I totally get it.
@@talbotsolenberger4434 Ha nice!
Have you had a look at Plover? Steno uses rather more keys - two per finger, plus extras for the pinkies, but they get used very differently. Everything - absolutely everything, is done using chords. You may have noticed that QMK supports Plover, which runs on the computer & interprets the chords.
Ben, how many hours practice did it take you to get to 80wpm? In the time I've been watching your channel, you've tried so many different layouts, Colemak etc. You always manage to achieve a fast speed. Us mere mortals (well me), have never managed that speed ever, let alone on a very unusual 16 key layout! Your brain is on a whole different level to mine! Great content as always!
Muscular memory, how many hours have you put in ?
@@_ADHK293A_ Well, I've been using Dvorak for over 10 years, but the point I was making is that Ben has changed layout so many times. I have tried several different keyboards, with layers etc., but all still using the Dvorak layout.
It does feel like we all have some kind of genetic speed limit for typing, mine is at ~120wpm, I was practicing for couple of months but couldn't break through it.
Nice to see how fingers move on a small layout like that. I'm creating a chorded keyboard for my PC and phone. If I can get 6 chords per second someday, I'd be able to type pure alphanumerics at 288wpm and pure symbols at half that. 5th digit not required; actually only one hand is needed as the layout is identical for each hand. Though there's a trackpad for the thumb, I'm currently planning a way to key in cursor positions too so that I can be even more productive for mouse centric tasks.
Yes to they keying in cursor positions. When I wrote an animation application a while back, I used a standard keyboard, but I put most of my shortcuts on the left hand, so that when I was drawing, I could mouse with the right hand, but do all of the "clicking" using the left-hand shortcut keys. This eliminated a problem I've always had with drawing programs, which was having the mouse move by a pixel or three when I clicked. This is especially a problem on trackpads, since it is difficult to change finger pressure (to click) without changing finger position, at least as the trackpad sees it.
I feel like another step to take is some good low profile AR glasses to allow for a heads-up computer with the keyboard small res strapped to the legs
Impressive. My sweet spot is 42 keys, at 30 keys I have to drastically lower my typing speed to avoid all kinds of typos. I'd have to dive much deeper into the firmware than I care to for that kind of optimisation.
So exciting! Got me tempted to change my layout again. But it seems typing code would add a lot of layer switching, since non-words are often used.
Symbols are surprisingly easy - think of it like using shift to get brackets, except shift is on the home row!
@@BenVallack I don't mean symbols. Currently I'm using home-row mods, and I have a symbol layer too; that is not a problem. My concern is that when typing things like DBBP or XYZ, the one-shot layer key needs to be pressed once for every letter in ALPHA2. And as you mentioned, if you make it a simple MO key (stay in ALPHA2 as long as layer key is depressed), then that would interfere with English typing, when typing fast. Maybe I need an additional key!
@@checyr Use capslock key. And for symbols you can write a macro: {,space,}left arrow, left arrow, space. Single "{" key will put { } with the cursor inside ready for typing the function.
@@JamesSmith-ix5jd I didn’t mean uppercase in particular, but “DBBP” and “dbbp” would have the same issue - too many consecutive one-time layer shifts.
Love the work, the video and the layout! - I just don't yet understand the motivation/aim, though? Isn't this bound to be slower than setups using at least a dedicated key for every letter? Or is the goal mainly ergonomics, say for people with arthritis? Then it would make perfect sense!
I found out about these keyboards only 2 days ago and since then my mind has been spinning around little else!
Some people prefer comfort over speed. I haven't gone as far as this... yet, but the sweet spot for me is 30-keys where I haven't found any speed loss. I have a combo for Z and Q, which are so infrequent and in such a comfortable position that I don't find they slow me down. I've come from a Ferris Sweep, so I'm used to using layers, and a lot of punctuation is on a combo. I type these much, much faster than I ever did with dedicated symbol keys, and it's far more comfortable too.
This comment is pretty old now, so perhaps you dove into it already.
That's actually a keyboard for typing minified js code.
lol
I wonder if it would affect a writer's choice of words, if one word could be done on Alpha 1 alone, while the alternative had one or more Alpha 2 letters...
Great Video! How did you get to that specific alpha layout / layers?
::Ben:: Yet another interesting video that makes me question my reality. lol. I keep looking at your new layout here and I keep thinking that you seem to have fallen in love with the pinky stagger of the Ferris Sweep that you had been using. Maybe that should be part of the next redesign? And 80wpm? Crikey, lad! I can barely get there on my Sweep--or any keyboard, for that matter. lol. I think that some of the hold up for me is that I can only really type about as fast as I can talk sometimes. Other times it flows out of me without issue, but then I trip over my fingers a lot.
I am slowly, but surely, getting used to the idea of having a backspace key that if I tap it, I get backspace, but holding it gives me the command key. Strangely though, and I don't remember programming this, but I have found that if I double tap the backspace key and hold it down on the second press--it will allow me to hold down the backspace key and use it like you would normally expect. I'm still using QMK because I can't do GitHub at all, and I'm still not sure if I could use ZMK on the normal MCUs that I have or not--so, that trick may or may not apply to you. Still, I thought it might be worth mentioning in case anyone else has been wanting a backspace key to pull double duty but didn't want to lose out on holding it down to wipe out lines of text at a time.
I think that I am at the point in my keyboarding journey where I am happy with sticking to a 34 key layout, or 33 maybe--looking at my Reviung34 that also has that option--but anything smaller just sounds like madness to me. I am happy for you though, finding something that works the way you think and being able to master it quickly like that is certainly a talent.
Well, that is about all that I can think of for this comment block, but look forward to an email later. I have had some interesting life changes that I feel like sharing with you, but not here.
Cheers, mate.
Thanks for the comment - yeah I do like the heavy drop on the pinkie for sure!
Inspired by this and your "...Endgame!" video I'm working on a 10 key design of my own (4 Left, Shift, Space, 4 Right). I've got shaky hands, so Tap Dance isn't great for me. I'm going to go in the opposite direction and try and solve the issues with Combos you pointed out. My working plan is to set the right hand keys as F21-F24, then use those, in Combos, effectively as Mods for the left hand keys. With combinations of these F-Mods I'll have access to almost 65 characters per layer, and since the higher function keys are unimplemented in most (all?) OSes I can avoid rollover issues. My current hypothesis is that keeping speed up will be all about organization on the character side: I've grouped the most common bigrams and trigrams on a single key (where possible) to allow holding the character key and typing with the mods (so 'and' would be: [Left 3(Held), F21, F22, F23], then organized those characters that can't fit on that 'primary' key to work the opposite way (so the suffix 'ing' is: [F21(Held), L1, L3, L4]). The thing I'm trying to remove whenever possible is the need to change fingers on both hands at the same time. I'm sure with practice that will become second nature, but I feel fairly confident that's where most of my mistakes will be early on. I'm really looking forward to when my boards arrive and I can finally start testing this idea. Thanks!
Super interesting approach! Good luck and keep me posted on how it works out!
How’d it go!!!
@@elasticyeti I don't know yet 😅. I was on a really tight budget, so it took a couple months for my PCBs to arrive, and in the meantime life, generally, has gotten in the way of me being able to sit down and get the hardware soldered together. I've got some time off for Xmas and hopefully I will get time to work on it then.
next video: "so minnimal you can barely see it" - My 2 key morse code keyboard (200 wpm)
love the videos and now I want to make one.
Very good video Ben
Please, I will be if you can also include in the description the components used in building this particular keyboard. As you said, adding two more keys on the pinkie finger side to make it 20 keys would be very efficient.
Can't wait to see that update. Thanks
I actually meant one key per side so 18 total. Details on components etc are in this video. ruclips.net/video/UKfeJrRIcxw/видео.html
@@BenVallack Oh I see
this could help add another layer, I presume?
This is amazing, I have a quick question, I got a plank ez. I really wanted to try using an ortholinear before commiting to anything I need to build myself. What I'm finding is my speed is up to where it was using my standard keyboard (60) and typing feels much better but now I have pain in my right hand (wrist and forearm). Is that a consequence of getting used to ortholinear? I type well and fast without much unnecessary movement. Do you have any advice for me?
You might have ended up bending your wrists a bit more subconsciously inline with the columns. Have you seen this video? ruclips.net/video/1C2bJkzIaPE/видео.html
In the end: 1 key keyboard! Morse code intro
It's great that you've addressed the thumb key "issue". I was going to ask about it half way through video, but you've explained it at the end. But on that side shot it looks like the thumb key could be moved further away. Like 1/2 of the key height. Because even if the "curled" hand is comfortable you're still hitting the bottom edge of the thumb key instead of the center of the key. I don't see any disadvantaged with moving it - other than making the keyboard a little bigger. The same goes to the key layout - why have you decided on the straight row and not the curved row that is more suited for finger's (different) length?
Yeah my next board will bring back the stagger. I actually made one with a stagger at the same time as this which you can see in this video but the new one has 18 keys and stagger. ruclips.net/video/UKfeJrRIcxw/видео.html
@@BenVallack Thanks! I somehow missed that. I should've clicked that bell. Now it's done! As you've said - you can't possibly be sure what you EXACTLY want - until you try a certain layout. Then you can build upon that. I think I'll start with Ferris Sweep - but restrict myself to a smaller "base" of 12 keys + modifiers and using the remaining keys for extra functionality like less used program launcher, media keys, etc.
That is amazing 🤩! I just started tinkering with keyboards, I made a 20key keyboard and it is so hard typing on it. I managed to get 12words /min 😂. Awesome video!
I wanted a keyboard like this literally for a kind of game I play. This really interest me
I stumbled across your channel today and watched some of your videos with interest. but one thing as someone who currently uses a self-built 87% keyboard (and fully aware i might be considered a peasant in this community 😂); thinking of all these mechanisms to have all the keys you need available is one thing, but how does one even go about memorizing all those (with blank keycaps even)!? I've been looking at building an Iris v3 since i like the idea of a split staggered ortho keyboard, but being a developer in different langauges and OS's I require almost all kinds of brackets and special characters. I've been coding for 9 years and typing blind for 16 years but I still have to check which braces are where and which require shift sometimes!
Ben, any tips on how to go about getting that MACRO like feature to work on QMK? My Corne is still using a non-zmk compatible MCU :/
Finally, it's almost here :)
I assumed you would be chording, but this is really impressive!!
Nope! Can’t get excited about chording per key. I can see it makes sense if the output is a word like steno but for individual keys it seems like a huge increase in effort.
if typing was a language of its own this man speaks it fluently! I am baffled and impressed at the same time.
Still too many keys? Try this: ruclips.net/video/XBV0piKtNjI/видео.html
thank you
Sold, Building mine now!
You. YOU Mr. Vallack, have single handedly made my life shear hell. Get the Moonlander he says ... it's ergonomic, programmable, has layers, he says. so I did, spent hours setting it up. Heaven, absolutely heaven. BUT, whenever I have to go back to a regular keyboard!! Misery... 😀. Thanks for all the great work .. keep it up. 👍
Sorry not sorry! 🤪
Would love to see how your vim setup has changed with the new layouts
I’ve actually been a bit lazy and and just using the keys wherever they fall! All keys are easy to reach and now I’ve added the repeat key as a new thumb key it’s even easy to repeat various commands.
For me (that I built 3 custom sub 30% keyboards) letters and space and return, for a total of 28 keys are the minimum. And I'm actually using it as my driver on one of my desktops, with a keymap that is maintaining the most compatibility with the standard keyboards. I've put online a demo if you look at my videos
PS: if I was just half good as you in making the video probably everything would look much clearer, hope anyway explanation can be understood in terms of concepts
Hello, just recently discovered this world and your videos have me the courage to wade in deeper.
One thing that I've been struggling with though: what do you mean when you say "roll"? 😅 You say it in a lot of your videos and I can't quite nail what you mean. Would you mind explaining it?
Certainly! So what I mean there is when you the fast it’s not uncommon for two keys to be held down at the same time. I.e you hit the second key before you’ve let go of the first one. This behaviour can really be a make or break with creative custom layouts. The reason being is also exactly how’s you use modifiers like Shift. So the board can’t tell the difference between a shifted key ours out a normal rolled set of consecutive keys. The main implication is that it’s hopeless trying to make a Shift key as a homerow style mod key.
Thanks! That made things much clearer. I'm currently waiting for my parts to arrive. Previously I was hesitant, but when I saw your video on building the Ferris Sweep, and then seeing you progressing to designing your own PCBs and all, I got encouraged to go through with it.
Thanks again.
I was going to scroll down here and type the protocollary "Lol use in vim with that" but I see you're doing more than well 😂 how do you manage with hjkl? did you remap?
At this point you could just go for ASCII and every button represents 4 bits.
i reccomend negative 439 keys layout very useful
Ben, with all of this keyboard efficiency you're not yet using a keyboard-driven OS are you? I would highly recommend looking into tiling window managers, most commonly found on Linux but I think Mac has an option called Amethyst. As the title suggests, they can automagically tile your windows, so you dont have to arrange them, and it supports up to 10 workspaces per monitor so you can assign specific apps to specific workspaces. The main benefit is that it's designed for efficiency and minimal use of the mouse. I think you'd be into it.
There are many to choose from, but some popular options include i3wm, dwm, and awesome wm. Mileage will vary, based on how dependent you are on proprietary software, but with keyboard layers it offers a really powerful way to control your PC. I use i3wm and I'm building a Sofle as my first foray - not quite ready for a true minimal yet.
Sounds very cool, window management is the bane of my life at the moment. Will check it out thanks!
@@BenVallack oh, you're in a for a treat -- you'll never need the mouse again. They're essentially config files for your whole desktop environment, that also tile your windows and perform actions (launching apps or scripts) based on mod keys...
There are even nifty little ways to centre the mouse on new windows, to make your keyboard mouse layer movement more manageable.
If you find it has legs for you it'd be great to see how you get on.
@@BenVallack You already have quick app launchers on shortcuts, just add: tile to left half, tile to right half, fullscreen and close. It's enough for most things. At least that's my humble opinion. I myself am writing my own wm in posix shell and wmutils, I think if I dig just a little bit deeper I will fall out of the matrix.
I have seen that you changed the sides of the moonlander keyboards, dou you then remove the wrist rest? I guess it wouldn't fit anymore in this case (it doesn't for me)?
This guy right here is Conan of keyboarding...
Subing!
Really interesting, i feel like the pinky finger could have another key in the home row since most of the time is in that possition, giving you the extra keys. quick question, what is that usbc adaptor u use, and why?
The current pinkie position is what I consider it’s home position, I don’t want to have to move it anywhere if I can avoid it heh. Adapter converts my mini usb cable to magnetic connection to the usb-c on the nice!nano
@@BenVallack Hey Ben, thank you for the video and the insights! 🙂 Regarding the usb-magnetic-adapter: May I ask which one you are using? I was thinking about something like that myself, but with all adapters I found, every time there was at least one comment mentioning breaking adapters or even destroying the connected device… 😕
@@johnibambohni www.aliexpress.com/item/4001122872878.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef1802MPsBIj they are good because they share a connector that works with micro usb and usb-c so you can use one cable to switch between usb-c and micro usb devices.
@@BenVallack Awesome! I'll give it a try! Thanks for the quick reply! 👍
Incidentally, having your fingers curled up is also the recommended position for stroking in steno, and so you can bank on it being useful for both speed and ergonomics.
Yeah I think this is one of the most important discoveries with this board
Do you play video games at all on your computer? if you do, could you explain how do you do it? the fact that I do play video games sometimes really puts me off of a lot of these very small layouts. I use a nyquist (12x5 split ortho) and I feel like it's the smallest I could ever go since a lot of games use numbers for weapon switching or other things, yes I could rebind them to other keys or even mouse buttons but I don't want to have to do that for every game.
Great vídeo! Are the keycaps 3d Printed?
I don’t think so, mkultra.click/mbk-choc-keycaps
@@BenVallack thanks for answering :). Have a nice day
I confirm that this number of keys is much faster and healthier than 26 keys layout proposed with The Card. I personally use 3-layer Engram which you can find on Oryx. My current speed isn't impressive at all (record - 70, regular - 55), but that's not the point for me, to be honest. What's more important is that I absolutely don't feel any strain in my right hand, especially index finger, since Engram is very "democratic" for your fingers and spreads the usage really evenly
This is neat and all, but how on earth do you make use of vim in these custom layouts? I tried learning dvorak but the motion keys were unintuitive enough for me to stick to qwerty.
I remapped the motion keys but left everything else on the original keys. (But if moving around to deal with the remapped keys but it’s not a disaster).
Wow, this is cool! I'd love to see what you could come up with for Japanese input.
Please add media dial support on both sides in the final PCB model
No way.. just when I was about to start soldering my 36 key keyboard! Now I'm gonna have to throw it away... 🤣🤣
Only half of it
@@jwr6796 🤣🤣🤣
this is insane. and im sitting over here with 108 keys and i dont think i could get rid of a single one.
Have you ever tried using a palm key like on the high-end Keyboardio models ? I find that they are the ultimate layer switchers. Almost like having a second pair of thumbs!
Oh my head! He knows what he is talking about but oh my what a lot of detail without pause.
I figured that is what the pause button is for heh
@@BenVallack I'd rather have to hit pause than watch every video on 1.5x! I appreciate your information density immensely lol
@@BenVallack cheeky :) it wasn’t a moan, if anything a compliment!
@@eastcoast4233 Ha sorry I didn't mean to sound cheeky either! Thanks for your comments! I am glad I managed to fit a lot of detail in :)
How are you finding this layout long term? I’m very much interested in this but not sure if additional key presses are better than moving finger along/diagonally one key (on a 32 key layout)
I love the reduction in movement. But it is error prone. I’m on the fence if it is worth it vs 36 really. I’m still keen to keep going with it but it’s definitely a pretty crazy approach!
Do you try to use some 3d software with the keyboard? I think it can requires to make custom layout.
Have you ever used a trackpoint? I actually did something very similar to your rubber band hack, using belt mounted soft-air holster plates and velcro stripes to hold split keyboard and a usb trackpoint I put together following a guide. Cables and overall bulkiness aside, I think this whole setup would extirpate carpal tunnel syndrome.
I'm not currently using it for a number of reasons, but I've downgraded my daily driver to a not-so-recent thinkpad only to get proficient with the trackpoint, plus homerow layout using kmonad on the inbuilt keyboard. Would never go back.
Yeah would love a trackpoint on this somehow!
@@BenVallack you might want to check Manna Harbour's hotswap trackpoint module guide and integration for QMK then!
This has been a very interesting arc to witness since the beginning lmao
Been waiting
Ben anyway you can share your upgraded 18 key layout for zsa moonlander? (I know this is the 16 key) I want to try this layout before going deep dive into zmk with a custom PCB and case. And the additional two keys seem to fit my workflow.
I'm playing with the 16 keylayout or do you have the discord group name where I can post questions about the layers with Shift for capital letters? Do the extra two keys make a big difference for you workflow wise? ( I can just copy your 16 but not sure if you have custom layers for those extra two keys)
Also. Can you show what you did with moving the period on thumb for tiny on zsa to qmk(also the configuration you posted is not editable? (Can you turn sharing on for it ty!!)Or what did you do for the exclamation point as well? Thanks
wait, if you only want the next key you press after the layer key to be on that layer, couldn't you just use qmk's built-in one-shot layers feature? ("OSL()")
No, because it keeps you in that layer while the key is held down. So if you roll really quickly it becomes very hard to only get one key from the second layer, you end up getting two by mistake.
I think it might need custom key codes on osl layer and a bool test on a lastkeyiscustom to emit a custom to actual mapping or ignore the keydown event.
Have you thought about stealing the behavior from mobile keyboards where hitting space twice inserts a period and primes the next letter for uppercase? Is that even possible in ZMK?
Yeah it has crossed my kind, might look into it. Should be possible using a tap dance style feature which I think is now available in ZMK
cool idea
the mouse/trackpad can be remove from this if you run a window manager, then you can tile your windows and remove any need for the mouse
I would love if something like that could be combined with some sort of controller like imagine that combined with a Wii remote or something. Then you could type in bed or outside etc.
I would love to replicate this project for my setup
Looking at the video of you typing on this, there are a lot of times where your little finger is hovering over air. A second pinky key could replace the second thumb key. Especially if it was just a sticky layer.
Yeah possibly but I don't like the feeling of moving my pinkie really, I think I'd prefer the thumb to move.
Doesn't this method cause much more activity for the thumbs causing thumb problems?
How about to solve the issue of capitol letters you set it so that when you hold down a lowercase letter it becomes a capitol?
The goals with this were that I could type all alpha keys, caps and non-caps, comma apostrophe and full stop without any alternative timing being needed.