Optimizing for the Fastest Road Travel - Mini Motorways Deep Dive
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- We dig really deep and use bugs to our advantage to solve more and more about this game, and further explain all of the nuances the game has to offer! Today we focus on cars and roads, the other key component that we haven't discussed yet.
If we reach 20K subs before October 26th, we'll have a 20hr livestream to kick off Darkest Dungeon 2!
More videos to come, so make sure you're subscribed and set up on those socials!
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/ retroflux_twitch (I stream sometimes too)
/ retroflux (We have a subreddit now!) 
Игры
"For those that play on pause speed, just multiply n by infinity."
Low-key comedy GOLD right here!
Was wondering how long it'd take for someone to mention that one LOL
Well, there's your answer, about 27 minutes. Glad I could be of service! 😂
@@Retroflux ... Shouldn't that be division though? Or multiplying by .5 and 0.
@@plzletmebefrank Yes the rate of travel (tiles per second) goes to zero when you pause, so you'd multiply by zero (same is true for half speed being times 0.5 like you mentioned), but the time it takes complete the journey (my proposed 'n') would be inversly proportional to the rate of travel, so the limit approaches infinity. It's a bit of a clarity issue on my end, I'll admit, but tl;dr it solely depends on the frame of reference you choose.
Edit: Also, there's a lot of irony related to your question, your username, and your profile picture that I want to appreciate: Asking about things getting schlower, venom spiderman is the inverse proportional to spiderman... idk it just seems ironically appropriate that you're the one to ask this question lol
Hey, if any brands are reading this, I'd buy what he's selling
hi, I'm brand and I sell replies at $2.50 a pop
@@itskittyme aww crap now I owe you
Yeah I really need me an affordable education platform online so I can learn a bunch of random things! Too bad there's no such companies :/
@@Arthur_da_dog i was just looking for trustworthy VPN services and can’t seem to find any…
@@gabuskyta I was looking for seats for the next big event happening in the large city near me, too bad there's no good app for tickets that has the best prices :o
In all my years of watching RUclips videos, this is the first sponsor I like
I am unreasonably interested in these deep dives for a game I do not own or play. Loving the experimental approach and theory crafting! On the road to 20k and beyond!
You should own it! It's a cheap game that runs on weak PCs or Apple Arcade
It's worth the $10 or whatever. Looks simple but it's real addictive.
Don't worry about the length of the video, I would totally watch a 20-30 min video on this.
Yeah, cutting it into parts is almost annoying enough to dislike
So to give you a bit of inside scoop, on my end all metrics (except revenue) points to shorter videos being better, they're more clickable, people stay for longer, easier to digest, etc. So for things that are educational, I find it best to keep it short! If I really wanted to maximize my earnings, my videos would all be 15 minutes long so I could run two mid-rolls, I'd clickbait my titles, the works...
But I have no desire for money from all of this, it's a nice happy accident from sharing with all you great people :) I'm happy to build this community and watch it grow, and wherever it goes from here is just peachy with me!
@@Retroflux well you were a big teaser, rather than looking at answering one basic question, with a story about the method and answering it at the end, you raised questions and have the data ...
It lacks resolution as you introduced other answers. But if you had kept to simply comparing dog legs to direct, diagonals then motorways, showing a table of speeds, and then mentioned what was coming up in the next dive, it'd avoid the annoyance at abrupt cut
This series feels far to similar to my old engineering courses...
I'm not hearing you say that you hate it :^)
Also, would love to see you do a video about roundabout capacity! I've found that at a certain point roundabouts can become jammed and actually hinder the flow of traffic.
The divide by zero joke was fantastic.
The "bug" is actually with the destination, not the motorway. It might even be an intended feature. Basically, destinations connected directly to a road will not slow down traffic passing by the destination. This also applies to houses connected directly to a road. Note that cars will still yield to other cars going in or out of a driveway, so although cars *can* pass by without being slowed down, they will sometimes be slowed by other cars. You can use this to your advantage, for example on a road with two color destinations, by placing the road directly in front of one of the destinations (instead of using another piece of road to make a 3-way junction, which slows down all cars passing through it).
I agree with everything except for the first bit, I'm pretty sure the devs didn't intend for the motorway speed to be maintained off the motorway indefinitely. It passing by the shop quickly wasn't the problem, it maintaining motorway speed on a normal road was the issue!
I'm really liking the info, structure, and humor of your videos in this series. Keep it up!
Thanks, will do!
Hey! I’m so glad to see you doing the detective work. I am so much more entertained by watching you sleuth it out versus if you just consulted the code.
Great video! You got a new sub from the last one and this one continued the trend of excellency. Keep it up! And btw, multiply by infinity, that was hilarious.
As a software engineer, "in code we distrust and source comments doubly so". You actually have to check things with real measurements for anything non-trivial.
As a software engineer, "who wrote this?" ; "git blame" ; "Oh it was me, distrust myself doubly so"
I'll get to the code eventually, but having the contextual knowledge that comes with the sleuthing will help a lot.
@@Retroflux Exactly, reading source helps more when you know how it behaves. Experience taught me to believe user's crazy sounding reports where first reaction was, "but that cannot happen".
If the developers want more realistic road networks, they need to alter the simplistic model. Probably houses need to have demand and dests compete to satisfy the journeys.
But an element of self correction by avoiding traffic black spots would likely spoil the fun.
As is the deletion bug and aggressive spawning in areas under redevelopment made me take a break from MM
There we go! Some deep math into a great game. Love it! Excellent work RF. 👍
Love the stuff bro, nice roads!
Your deep dive earned my sub. Well done sir!
Man keep up content like this and you’ll be a very successful man
hey man, congrats on the 10k subs
This video is basically highschool in 6 minutes. Scientific method, Pythagoras, square diagonals, etc lol
"You'll never use this in your life", gotta prove the haters wrong
Really looking forward to you tackling acceleration and deceleration as well as hopefully optimizing motorway onramps and offramps which i've found to be a huge problem.
Oh yeah! Darkest dungeon 2 content.
LET'S GO!!!
Congrats on the 10k subs. Such a fast growth from when u were still on 1k hope it continues
Crazy that it's only been a month and a half... 10x growth in that timeframe is ridiculous!
@@Retroflux I know right. Keep it going
Finally, a video on the numbers/math behind this game! This is perfect, thank you for this!
Thanks, random integer-string citizen! Glad my numbers vibe well with yours lol
This is all very useful information! surprising amount of game science to be applied here to this game
I love this series
Quality Video dude
As a high school math teacher, I truly appreciated this video, and I think I'll link it as a 'fun little way you can use Pythagorean Theorem and Special Right Triangles to do something with this weird crap I'm teaching you'.
lol! Finally I can tell people that I use special triangles for something. I told my friend that I was using a 1-1-root2 triangle and they had forgotten what that meant... they then looked at me more and more oddly as I then started to tell them about the angles of the triangle that you could derive because the side lengths are equal LOL. Hopefully you can get at least one student to realize that it's not what you learn, but how you learn it - that's what matters!
@@Retroflux Here's hoping! The unit is scheduled for February, so I can keep you posted? LOL.
this is such a helpful video thanks
Glad it was helpful! It is my pleasure to assist in your learning. :)
First class!! Perhaps you could compare a road with several hairpin sections to one the same distance with just smooth curves?
My hypothesis is that lost time is related to braking, so cars moving slowly out of houses and dests suffer less than similar bends to get on/off bridges & tunnels.
that's my thought, too. My current hypothesis is that the hairpin will follow the same acceleration rates as an intersection, as if there's an invisible T-junction that it has to slow down for. It'll be interesting to see once I have time to dig into it more!
No better way to start my day than with this video!
Also, did you dislike your own video??
It must be a bot, it has to be, the video has only been out for a minute LOL
Makes me feel special, knowing that someone set up a bot just to downvote my videos. :')
@@Retroflux it's all interaction and "user engagement" .. but many dislikes can be accidental on mobile
"But we'll talk about that in a future video" sounds almost like I'm watching a @notjustbikes video :D
How do people always find out about what channels I watch? Am I mimicking them subconsciously? I love Not Just Bikes!
I really shouldn't watch this having just waken up. But hey, I like your videos even if I don't understand the math lol
Even while editing my eyes glaze over, don't worry 🤣
I’m so glad someone did the math. Honestly, I just assumed the speed on all roads were the same except at intersections. I’m not sure if I’ll be able to actually take advantage of the increased inner turn speed in practice, but it’s always good to know. Liked and subscribed! When are you planning on uploading the follow up video???
So far, no hard date is set. I try and do a deep dive every week or two, but it really depends on what footage I can get and how much time I have available! I work two jobs alongside this, so there's never a dull moment in my life haha... the next one will hopefully be out soon, maybe mid-week next week or the weekend after! :)
This is like “A Beautiful Mind” but Mini Motorways edition. I’ve never watched a RUclips video with my head tilted (like a golden retriever) trying to understand what’s happening until I met this video. 😂
I'm taking this as a compliment, but jinkies I don't like where this is leading me lol. If DoD knocks on my door, I'm playing dumb
@@Retroflux hahaha. It’s a compliment, no worries. I have no head for math so that image of Julia Roberts with all the formulas flying over her head was totally me wanting to understand this video. 😀 This game is so addictive I can’t get enough of your videos about it!
nice video man
thanks for doing the math & I look forward to future episodes of you doing the maths for me.
DD2 --> Let's go!
when you said about time for travel along motorway, you used Euclidian distance function.
but that small disagreement on theory and practical time made me think what if there is used not euclidian distance but a Manhattan? (x+y)
i thought so because you used very horizontal motorway where dy is pretty small, i think you should test that on more diagonal motorway
Oooh, good point, I should definitely retest with a diagonal to test for Manhattan - will have to give it a shot!
holy shit O_O your content is so good O_O i didnt notice your sub count O_O
Another deep dive . Yes come on. This game is very addictive
Instead of doing all that complicated math just wait for 2 shop spawns, pause the game, make a road from 1 house to shop for each shop... Make one road straight and other road zig zag / diagona / whatever, but both should have same lenght. Easy to measure and show us results.
Try doing that without maths! I wouldn't call Pythagoras's theorem complicated.
I've seen dozens of games. I have come to several conclusions:
· Use roundabouts near the entrances to destinations, whether it is traffic for that destination or traffic for other destinations (use the roundabout to mix two or more traffics).
· Each new connection of a house creates a junction that affects traffic, so sometimes it is better to remove connections from houses that are very close or close to the destination, if with that we lighten the general traffic to the destination. In some cases I have seen houses that were literally attached to the destination, make a new road for them to join the traffic of their color, but at a certain distance from the entrance, that is, keep the entrance as clear as possible.
· Asian players are much more likely to create road infrastructures in straight lines (vertical and horizontal), together with roundabouts and traffic lights, sharing traffic of different colors on the same road, since the traffic is less dense in the early stages, and far from destinations. Also, that saves creating road sections. As destinations need more traffic, it is when they begin to put highways, but they do not renounce that the cars of a house of one color can cross the entire map, that is, they keep all the roads connected.
Preventing cars takeling very long routes by keeping traffic local, not globally connected, mitigates the deletion bug, where traffic crazily heads off course to wrong colour houses and dests with delays ramping up demand risking game termination.
The love of roundabouts/motorways serving busy destinations is partly due to avoiding clogging as they create space.
Using square roads in mixed estates does aid flexibility. Where a few houses join a highway having one T/Y intersection with lights works better than direct connection even if you have to bend the highway..
Slip roads linking dests avoid tail backs into car parks.
If I hadn’t already graduated IB, this would 10/10 be my math IA
Even though 90 degree turns don't technically slow down the cars based on their actual speed, they still give the car at least one extra tile to drive through before reaching their destination vs having a wider angle turn. At least that's what I figure, since a 90 degree turn requires 3 tiles and a wide turn requires only 2. So even though they technically don't slow down your car, they still geometrically slow down the car, at least if I'm understanding this correctly.
Yes, simply put a right-angle turn makes you take the long way around a triangle, but a diagonal gets you there across the hypotenuse. Any curve with an internal angle greater than 90 degrees will get you there faster, up until 180 degrees (a straight line).
M A T H.
best creator on RUclips
While hairpin curves might not significantly slow down a single car, they're murder for late game gridlock. I find it's worth adding 2 or 3 road tiles to achieve a wider angle of approach.
This. The difficulty is quantifying the damage because, once you get to that point in the game, there's a lot of confounding variables that could be affecting your traffic flow. I'm sure it's better to do a wider curve, but the math for it is outside my realm of expertise.
liked, good content
I hate that i love these geeky videos
2:24 how can you simplify sqrt(2) times n to sqrt(n)
I definitely skipped several steps in between and could have spent some time explaining it better lol, sorry! What I mean was that when we translate it to the game, we'll be talking about an arbitrary number of road tiles, all being travelled many many times over. What I then tried to produce was a general statement that explained that sqrt(2) is just the root of the summed squares of the side lengths (Pythagorean theorem).
We don't know the distance travelled, just that it's a number, so we generalize that squared sum to "n", such that "n"= a^2 + b^2.
In hindsight, I should have instead said the hypotenuse was sqrt(2n), where n = a^2 = b^2; that'd be much clearer I think. I did get a little carried away after that and started thinking about limit theory and how the 2 doesn't really matter because n will grow on an order of magnitude faster than it, so it'd be theoretically negligible in the long run, but yeah.
Tl;dr what matters is the conclusion of my maths: diagonals are intrinsically faster because simply because they cover the same total displacement from start to finish in less time. Hope that helps :)
For the speeds, think the diagonal speed needs to be cut to actually go by distance, not equivalent zig zag esk roads
brilliant
so interesting.. "Min Maxing" mini Road ways!
Mini-Maxing
2:26 Renata Sorrah meme actress
no way you havet hit 20k yet!
Only from a lack of trying! It's been a couple months since my last upload haha.... I'll get there soon :)
If only all roads were straight and always lead us from point A to point B... But man can have a dream.
Junctions, roundabouts, highways, driveways... All of them make math too complex. Can this math be helpful? You tell us, in the next videos, I hope.
Can't wait for you to sell me some stuff!!
MORE!
so wait what was the outcome, is diagonal better then 90 degree?
They are the same speed per tile (ie. no slowing down for the turn), but because diagonals are the shortest distance, they'll always be faster to get from A to B. So, where possible, use diagonals, but don't be afraid to use 90-degree turns. The cars don't decelerate, it just takes a little longer (1.41 units of time vs 2 units of time)
Diagonal save the tiles)
Suppose, destination point have 10 horizontal and 10 vertical steps, summary 9+9=18 tiles.
Same diagonal route coast only 9 tiles
Very interesting video especially for the fact that I don't even own the game^^
For the price, it's 100% worth it, almost simply for the polish. It's such a clean and beautiful game, and the lofi music tracks are so relaxing.
40.21s - 35.13s = 5.08s, so you were actually super close to your hypothesis of 5.06s
That's in minutes:seconds:frames, so the ".08" is actually 8/60 seconds = 0.1333 seconds
@@Retroflux But I have a 144Hz display with variable refresh! Should I limit MM to 60fps to avoid dodgy floating point corrupting the lovely integers 😉🤪😉
LOL 🤣 what really bakes my noodle is realizing that my 60 frames are different from someone else's 60 frames, because we're taking snapshots from a continuous dataset 😵
@@Retroflux It runs at the same speed, capturing at 144Hz fps would simply improve sampling accuracy. What's displayed has to reflect the game's internal map model which must be much finer than the tile grid for accurate smooth animation.
Something told me it was running at 144 fps in a desktop window, where as I had limited full screen to 60 as I don't perceive any benefit in this kind if game to waste energy.
I don't mind the length of the video, it takes however long you need to explain it. 😊
I can't believe you missed the opportunity to call this a deep drive
While I do appreciate the pun, it's a tad too silly for the content :(
What if I play on -1 speed?
Then we need to talk so I can make a video about it 👀
waiting for that guy to say he figured this out 60 yrs ago by reversing the code... lol
“Let’s make some assumptions and then support it by facts.” I believe, sir, this is called confirmation bias.
"assume X" is the basis for all logical proofs. If I found that it was otherwise not true, then I would have a proof by contradiction to the contrary.
What do you mean by frames per second?
Recordings are shot at a steady number of frames per second; in my case, 60 frames per second.
Yes, but how do you measure speed of cars with frames per second? A car will exist in every frame. (While writing this I think realised what you meant. Of the 60 frames, 15 of them the car will displace. And the rest 45, the car will remain stationary.) Anyways, tiles per second seems a better measure.
Thank you so much for taking your time to reply.
Ah I see your question - you can ask yourself "how long does it take for the car to travel one game tile?". For me, I chose to count the frames and use that as my speed value. Since I know how many frames are in a second, I can say things like, "cars travel at a rate of 2 tiles per second", which would translate to 30 frames per tile. The important thing is that I have a way to express the speed in real-world terms, so other people can calculate things with my numbers. ☺️
Imma just drifting
From now on I shall only use diagonal roads 😂 if the diagonal road is 30% faster then it is equal to or close to motorway speed 🤔
Think of motorways as "the most optimal path", but faster. Assuming it's using straight-line distances, you should use motorways for anything that would otherwise be a non-optimal pathway. If you're already drawing a diagonal road (or any straight road), your actual increase in speed is much less.
Make sense?
No, it's 80% of the motorway speed, doing the Manhattan distance will be even slower! 10+10 vs √10²+10² = 14 and the motorway is roughly 11
@@Retroflux Yeah absolutely, at the moment I try to use motorways to avoid crossroads and mixing of colours early game then move my focus to using them for shortest path in later game. I wouldn't for example replace a 6 piece straight road with a motorway as the gain is very little unless that road has a crossroad in it or adding a motorway allows me to route a group of another colour through. About to have a crack at the daily, der es salaam, you get 3 motorways to start! Should be fun
This makes me wonder if there are some wonky designs that'll work better despite looking terrible
Hairpin turns to reduce speeds coming off an arterial road, double roundabouts... There's lots :)
@@Retroflux how does reducing car speed help? Don't cars just slow approaching a hazard like a junction or traffic blocking turning?
@@Retroflux I'll be waiting for future videos then. Great stuff so far 🙂
Hi, I would like if you made longer and more extensive videos. Because I really like your content, but it ended so quick.
Does it have to be only MM content? Because uhh... got a big one coming, just not Mini Motorways lol
@@Retroflux no, it doesn't. But this video just ended so abruptly
5:11 isn't it rather 5.08 seconds, or does my head do weird stuff right now?
The top numbers are in minutes:second:frames, so each ".01" of a second is 1/60th of a second.
@@Retroflux it's even in the clamps, im sorry, thank you :)
hey retro pepe frog here ily 😌
For those that play on pause speed multiply n by infinity 😭🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 this got me dead
It is by far one of the funniest jokes I've ever said on this channel
nerd... Great Video!
Wow you sound just like the Casually Explained channel guy
I did actually notice that when I was editing the ultra dry joke about infinity multiplication! Turns out, we're both Canadian! :O
i literally feel like im in a physics class
E L A S T I C S T R E T C H F A C T O R
@@Retroflux no please not the distance formulas and pythagoras nightmate 😭😭😭
Just a suggestion to change your 20k subscriber special to something minimotorways related instead seeing as that is what the majority of your viewers like
Nope! Most of my subs like my MM content, but I don't want anyone to be disillusioned on the direction of this channel: Mini Motorways springboarded me into the spotlight, but I can't cling to it for safety when it's popularity is dropping at a rate of 35-60% per month.
@@Retroflux gotcha must just be me getting flung into the community and only getting suggested popular motor vids, I'll have to check out the MM stuff
@@goosegeek6234 RUclips does tend to yeet their viewers into communities without warning, all good! Enjoy your time here, whether it be lengthy or short, and may the algorithm bless you with good content ☺️
If you pause devide car speed by zero
Whoa whoa whoa, never divide by zero - that can only end badly
Engagement
Quick maffs
This game is old right?
Like 4 weeks old?