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How does a great video like this only have 300 likes everyone give back some love and hit the button so great full for people like this sharing knowledge thx 😊
Thanks Mike I have a 69 GTO last time I drove it on the street was 2008 I'm shooting for the 4th of July to get it back on the road you have been a great motivator i live in Yorba Linda orange county California.
That is pretty much how I have done things for years, no substitute for careful measurements... Not sure if you know or not but on the thimble of the micrometer, the small thumb thimble ratchets for precision tightening. Once the large thimble is rolled to touch the bearing journal surface, then use the small thimble to ratchet to precision then lock in place.
Yup, exactly how I used it. The video was long enough, I didn't want to go into how to use a mic. Ha ha. I was just shocked that my *expert* uses a book number. I was dumbfounded. Thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty - makes me question how expert they really are. Their methods are crappy, assuming the bearing shell thickness. You can buy a tube micrometer that reloaders use to measure cartridge wall thicknesses pretty cheaply to be able to measure your bearing shell thicknesses. It's stupid as hell for them to measure the bore and not just put the bearings into the bores, torque them and measure that like you are doing. There's also poisson's ratio and bearing crush, but that's going to be minute. I'm a MSME, so I appreciate you thinking through this stuff with your ME hat on.
Lots of time involved and still perhaps some questions on the measurements. The factory and a rebuilder can't afford to spend such time so likely have faster methods to determine bearing clearances. Did you do a final Plastigage check with crankshaft installed? Finally, what is the best target gap? Current engines tend to spec smaller clearances like ~1 mil, rather than the 2.5 mil of 1960's small-blocks. One reason is to run thinner oil (even 0W-20) for less drag. NASCAR does that too, but swaps bearings every race. A smaller gap also gives less noise, especially with an aluminum block. Another reason is that an aluminum block expands, so the gap increases as the engine warms. They have higher volume oil pumps to work with the thinner oil. A larger gap gives more allowance for deflections and imprecise fit. I agree with sticking with 2.5 mil of the day and using at least 10W-30 oil. Many classic owners use diesel-rated oil, at least brands with more zinc to better protect flat-tappet camshafts.
Good points... however, if you want super tight tolerancing you (or, the engine builder) needs to Blue Print every bearing measurement. That can be up to $2000 in labor. So, it's not quick. Race teams know their dimensions BEFORE tearing the engine down, so they already know which bearings to use. Factory built engines have dedicated gauges that quickly determine which bearing to put on which journal... but factory engines don't have tight tolerances either. That said, every engine is different. Mine used to be a 400, it's now bored and stroked to 470, which means you have to add some more oil clearance to make up for the increased crank/rod angle. Anyway, yes, I used plastigage in Part 5... ruclips.net/video/GQmfLtyMCFw/видео.html Thanks for the comment!
This video, and many others that Mike publishes is invaluable for anyone who’s rebuilding a motor themselves. 15:29 had me dying 😂. Seriously, though… Wear gloves.
Reminded me abit in my 4 yrs of Machine Shop in HS in the early 70’s. Some kids had nice cars that were probably their parents. 68 GTO Judge, 69 SS396 El Camino and 70 Z/28. Sweet.
Wow, some spoiled kids there... ha, ha... thanks for the comment, as usual. By the way, been meaning to tell you, when you post a link to a product, RUclips doesn't allow it to post on the channel. I do see it. But, I can't reply to it. Talk soon!
@@johnmilner7603 Yeah, I'm saying the last time you sent a link... I think for the deburr tool for the fuel bung, It doesn't post to the channel, and I can not reply to it. Just a heads up, that you can't send web links for others to see. Nor can I reply to them. I appreciate your comments, and would like others to see them... thanks again!
I’m building my first small block had engine crank all machined at local machine shop I was told .10 under on mains and other bearings.. I double checked with plastic gauge on my main bearings I got .002 all the way to last one rear main 1 piece seal bearing was .003 other engine builders say that’s perfect but what’s your take ?
Yep, you're good. It's better to error on the high side, ie .003, instead of .001. I have larger clearances in my engine because its stroked, if that's what you were wondering. Good job!
Mike, any modifications to the thrust bearing? I'll be tearing down my engine -- just lost all oil pressure and suspect my engine has been eating itself since my friends and I put it together almost 20 years ago.
Wow. 20 years is pretty good. Good question about the thrust bearing. I assume you're talking about the thrust clearance, ie axial play of the crank. I never mentioned it, and probably should have. The issue is it's impossible to fix if you have too much play, and very difficult to fix if you have too little play. So, we'll have to pray that your crank doesn't have any thrust surface wear. Hope that makes sense. Good luck on the rebuild!
Hey mike i really like your videos . It really brings back some olds memories . i did want to mention you should also check your lifters since they are hydralic debri will make its way to those too an damage the tight clearances in those .One other question why are the main bearings not full groove .i know the ram air 4 had full groove main bearing to bring more oil to the rod bearing . an what about the oil pump ?
Good points... yes, I'm cleaning EVERYTHING, getting a valve job, cleaning the lifters, etc... not filming that stuff. That said, I don't know why new bearing don't have a full oil groove? Maybe someone way above my pay grade decided that wasn't a good design? ha, ha... Speed Pro bearings are probably the closest with a 3/4 oil groove. The oil pump video is coming soon... full tear down, and comparison with the @butlerperformance Pro Oil Pump. That'll be a good one. Stay tuned!
Hi, mike Great video I was wondering if did you did a align bore the mains on this build or on the previous build ? For the stroker build anyway your doing a great job also what was the oil pressure at idle pressure before you had the failure in . In July there’s going to be a all Pontiac show at the drive museum in el sugundo if you want to go and make a video for your channel let me know I’ll can drive you there stay cool brother and keep the vids coming
Thanks James! Yeah, it was Align Honed about 5 years ago, (aka 3000 miles). So, that wasn't needed. Good to know about the El Segundo show... I'll keep it in mind! Thanks for the comment! Sorry... the oil pressure, at idle was around 35, before the noticeable failure. The gauge read zero, but with a mechanical gage it was around 8 to 10. Wait until you see what I find when I compare the old pump, to a brand new Butler Pro 80 lb. pump. It's disturbing. See ya!
When using a mic properly, I will get the same result as anyone else because you can’t tighten it less or more if you use the mic properly and the mic is calibrated. There is a clutch to ensure everyone uses the same torque no matter how much you can bench. Without that clutch and calibration there is no accuracy or repeatability.
Agreed, still takes practice. And when measuring in Ten Thousandths, you can still have measurement error between two different operators/inspectors. Thanks for sharing!
Your comment about turning the crank undersized if the clearance is too loose - you can also have the block line honed instead of turning the crank. This is cheaper and will fix any taper in the bores.
But that reduces the bearing crush. Not a good thing, especially on a Pontiac which is prone to spinning main bearings. Bearing crush (hoop stress in the shells) creates the friction that keeps the bearings from spinning if there is ever metal-to-metal contact between the crank and bearing. Line honing to a larger bearing bore reduces that - I'd not want to do that.
Well, not exactly. Align Honing will fix any taper, but does NOT reduce the size of the bearing bores. An alternative would be to shave the caps, and not hone. That would compress the bearings to make up for the slop. Otherwise, the best way to do it is as explained. Thanks for the comment!
Bobby, I am guessing you've never built an engine. Align boring or honing doesn't have anything to do with bearing to crank clearance work. It positions the crankshaft squarely in the block and corrects the bearing journal diameter. The bearing outside (shell) diameter is the same for all bearing undersizes and is pre-sized for proper crush to insure the back of the bearing is in full contact with the bearing cap and the main saddle to maintain the bearing clearances. Only the bearing wear-surface thickness changes for the various undersizes. You have to cut the crank journals uniformly to a standard undersize and use corresponding bearings. While they are referred to as undersize, only the journal is undersize, the bearing is actually oversize by the same amount removed from the main and rod journals less oil clearance.
Good Question! I honestly don't know... Some guys like studs for easier head install. I've also heard they're not really needed until you're approach 20 lbs of boost. That said, if you do find a definite answer, let us know! Thanks for the comment.
@@FastMonty Terry was asking about the main bolts to studs, not head bolts to studs. I was always told whenever you plan to make more then 600hp or are going to install a turbo/blower/super charger, then you should switch to studs in your main caps for the better clamping force. If you plan on making 1000hp+, then you better speak to the pros who build these things everyday, and get the answers you need from them, because there's a lot more than just studs needed then!
Ohhhhh, yeah that's a different answer. The answer is over 700 hp you need FOUR BOLT Mains, doesn't matter if they're studs or not. I'll be doing this next year, so stay tuned! @@Anarchy-Is-Liberty
@@FastMonty I can't speak for Pontiac, but like BBC's, the factory 4 bolt main caps tend to be a bit weaker than 2 bolt main caps, so if it's really strength you're looking for, you need to convert a 2 bolt bolt to a 4 bolt splayed billet cap block. I've known class racers using studs on 2 bolt factory blocks making 700hp. Peace.
If and ONLY if you're building a bone stock engine. If you're boring, and stroking, the tighter tolerance range is mandatory for the higher forces. Thanks.
I hear you. You might need to watch it a few times. But you set your "Zero" where you measured your crank journal journal diamter. The bore indicator actually measures the difference. Hence your clearance between the journal and the bearing. In the video, the camera is offset to my eye line... and it looks like 0.004"... but, it was actually 0.0375". Hope that makes sense. @@apethings7671
Don't trust a machinist is right they just pumping out work not checking shit. You ask your friendly neighborhood machinist to deck your block to zero and he comes back with I'll get it within .005 of that number ..... Which is zero. You get a call your block is done you go down with the money you look over the block while noticing things are missing. After a little search the machinist finds your missing main bearings which were never opened. You ask how did you deck the block without installing the crank and a rod with piston? Your friendly machinist says they used math and your probably.010 in the hole. Your first red flag was the missing bearings your second red flag was the word probably. So you check yourself and using the proper method with a dial indicator you find your not .005 or under your not .010 or under your actually .018 in the hole. So then you call your friendly neighborhood machinist and tell him what you discovered. Nice guy says no problem just bring it back I'll cut it again for free. Ok cool so all I need to do is bring it back when I get out of work early enough on a Thursday the only day your open late and of course your not open weekends and make the time again transporting this engine block again because you couldn't do the job correctly the first time. Thanks friendly neighborhood machinist.
The bearing spec for wall thickness is the Maximum. We just proved that if they're made to the minimum spec, the actual dimension can be FAR from the theoretical. So, never assume anything, and measure it. Hope that makes sense.
Be sure to subscribe for more, click here; ruclips.net/user/fastmontysgarage Then get your FMG hat here; three color combos www.etsy.com/shop/fastmontysgarage
How does a great video like this only have 300 likes everyone give back some love and hit the button so great full for people like this sharing knowledge thx 😊
God only knows... ha, ha... thanks for the comment!
I actually like the way u did this. Beats having to lift the crank repeatedly
Thanks Wade! Much Appreciated.
Thanks Mike for the detailed tutorial, especially mixing the bearings. I feel like I can remove my engine and
work on the bearings without fear.
Welcome! Take your time... you'll get there.
Thanks Mike I have a 69 GTO last time I drove it on the street was 2008 I'm shooting for the 4th of July to get it back on the road you have been a great motivator i live in Yorba Linda orange county California.
That's great to hear! I too would love to be back on the road by the 4th... hope to see you at an upcoming event! Keep at it...
That is pretty much how I have done things for years, no substitute for careful measurements... Not sure if you know or not but on the thimble of the micrometer, the small thumb thimble ratchets for precision tightening. Once the large thimble is rolled to touch the bearing journal surface, then use the small thimble to ratchet to precision then lock in place.
Yup, exactly how I used it. The video was long enough, I didn't want to go into how to use a mic. Ha ha. I was just shocked that my *expert* uses a book number. I was dumbfounded. Thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty that is surprising...
@@FastMonty - makes me question how expert they really are. Their methods are crappy, assuming the bearing shell thickness. You can buy a tube micrometer that reloaders use to measure cartridge wall thicknesses pretty cheaply to be able to measure your bearing shell thicknesses. It's stupid as hell for them to measure the bore and not just put the bearings into the bores, torque them and measure that like you are doing. There's also poisson's ratio and bearing crush, but that's going to be minute. I'm a MSME, so I appreciate you thinking through this stuff with your ME hat on.
@@pete540Z Thanks Brother! Always nice to have another ME backing up my thought process. I really thought I was losing my mind. Thanks again,
Lots of time involved and still perhaps some questions on the measurements. The factory and a rebuilder can't afford to spend such time so likely have faster methods to determine bearing clearances. Did you do a final Plastigage check with crankshaft installed? Finally, what is the best target gap? Current engines tend to spec smaller clearances like ~1 mil, rather than the 2.5 mil of 1960's small-blocks. One reason is to run thinner oil (even 0W-20) for less drag. NASCAR does that too, but swaps bearings every race. A smaller gap also gives less noise, especially with an aluminum block. Another reason is that an aluminum block expands, so the gap increases as the engine warms. They have higher volume oil pumps to work with the thinner oil. A larger gap gives more allowance for deflections and imprecise fit. I agree with sticking with 2.5 mil of the day and using at least 10W-30 oil. Many classic owners use diesel-rated oil, at least brands with more zinc to better protect flat-tappet camshafts.
Good points... however, if you want super tight tolerancing you (or, the engine builder) needs to Blue Print every bearing measurement. That can be up to $2000 in labor. So, it's not quick. Race teams know their dimensions BEFORE tearing the engine down, so they already know which bearings to use. Factory built engines have dedicated gauges that quickly determine which bearing to put on which journal... but factory engines don't have tight tolerances either. That said, every engine is different. Mine used to be a 400, it's now bored and stroked to 470, which means you have to add some more oil clearance to make up for the increased crank/rod angle. Anyway, yes, I used plastigage in Part 5... ruclips.net/video/GQmfLtyMCFw/видео.html Thanks for the comment!
This video, and many others that Mike publishes is invaluable for anyone who’s rebuilding a motor themselves. 15:29 had me dying 😂. Seriously, though… Wear gloves.
Ha! Thanks Jonathan, I totally forgot about needing to wear gloves at that point... really appreciate the comment!
Reminded me abit in my 4 yrs of Machine Shop in HS in the early 70’s. Some kids had nice cars that were probably their parents. 68 GTO Judge, 69 SS396 El Camino and 70 Z/28. Sweet.
Wow, some spoiled kids there... ha, ha... thanks for the comment, as usual. By the way, been meaning to tell you, when you post a link to a product, RUclips doesn't allow it to post on the channel. I do see it. But, I can't reply to it. Talk soon!
@@FastMonty no links this time, if they’re are then it’s off my web page and most likely my car.
@@johnmilner7603 Yeah, I'm saying the last time you sent a link... I think for the deburr tool for the fuel bung, It doesn't post to the channel, and I can not reply to it. Just a heads up, that you can't send web links for others to see. Nor can I reply to them. I appreciate your comments, and would like others to see them... thanks again!
@@FastMonty that’s RUclips for ya.
Great job Mike!
Thanks!
Thank You Fast Ponte !!!
Thanks! Sure am glad that I measured them myself. Took me a while to get my mind around what was going on. Then... Bam! I figured it out. Thanks Greg!
Really liked this video.
Thanks Ryan! I know it was painfully boring to get through the data... but, critical to move forward. Thanks again!
You can mix bearing sizes on a given journal
Yup, that's exactly what I did, on a couple of the journals.
I’m building my first small block had engine crank all machined at local machine shop I was told .10 under on mains and other bearings.. I double checked with plastic gauge on my main bearings I got .002 all the way to last one rear main 1 piece seal bearing was .003 other engine builders say that’s perfect but what’s your take ?
Yep, you're good. It's better to error on the high side, ie .003, instead of .001. I have larger clearances in my engine because its stroked, if that's what you were wondering. Good job!
Where did you place the .001 undersized bearing? The cap or the block side on the half shells?
It doesn't matter. :)
Very good video however I would have shortened it to closer to 12 minutes
Thanks. And, maybe.
Mike, any modifications to the thrust bearing? I'll be tearing down my engine -- just lost all oil pressure and suspect my engine has been eating itself since my friends and I put it together almost 20 years ago.
Wow. 20 years is pretty good. Good question about the thrust bearing. I assume you're talking about the thrust clearance, ie axial play of the crank. I never mentioned it, and probably should have. The issue is it's impossible to fix if you have too much play, and very difficult to fix if you have too little play. So, we'll have to pray that your crank doesn't have any thrust surface wear. Hope that makes sense. Good luck on the rebuild!
Hey mike i really like your videos . It really brings back some olds memories . i did want to mention you should also check your lifters since they are hydralic debri will make its way to those too an damage the tight clearances in those .One other question why are the main bearings not full groove .i know the ram air 4 had full groove main bearing to bring more oil to the rod bearing . an what about the oil pump ?
Good points... yes, I'm cleaning EVERYTHING, getting a valve job, cleaning the lifters, etc... not filming that stuff. That said, I don't know why new bearing don't have a full oil groove? Maybe someone way above my pay grade decided that wasn't a good design? ha, ha... Speed Pro bearings are probably the closest with a 3/4 oil groove. The oil pump video is coming soon... full tear down, and comparison with the @butlerperformance Pro Oil Pump. That'll be a good one. Stay tuned!
Hi, mike
Great video I was wondering if did you did a align bore the mains on this build or on the previous build ? For the stroker build anyway your doing a great job also what was the oil pressure at idle pressure before you had the failure in . In July there’s going to be a all Pontiac show at the drive museum in el sugundo if you want to go and make a video for your channel let me know I’ll can drive you there stay cool brother and keep the vids coming
Thanks James! Yeah, it was Align Honed about 5 years ago, (aka 3000 miles). So, that wasn't needed. Good to know about the El Segundo show... I'll keep it in mind! Thanks for the comment! Sorry... the oil pressure, at idle was around 35, before the noticeable failure. The gauge read zero, but with a mechanical gage it was around 8 to 10. Wait until you see what I find when I compare the old pump, to a brand new Butler Pro 80 lb. pump. It's disturbing. See ya!
When using a mic properly, I will get the same result as anyone else because you can’t tighten it less or more if you use the mic properly and the mic is calibrated. There is a clutch to ensure everyone uses the same torque no matter how much you can bench. Without that clutch and calibration there is no accuracy or repeatability.
Agreed, still takes practice. And when measuring in Ten Thousandths, you can still have measurement error between two different operators/inspectors. Thanks for sharing!
That would be my last visit to that machine shop.
Ha, ha... for sure.
Hey mike, if I buy a stroker kit from Butler that includes crankshaft connector rods and bearings and rings do I really need to do all this checking?
Great question! It's up to you, but, bare minimum, I would use plastigage for a final check on all bearings. Have fun!
Your comment about turning the crank undersized if the clearance is too loose - you can also have the block line honed instead of turning the crank. This is cheaper and will fix any taper in the bores.
But that reduces the bearing crush. Not a good thing, especially on a Pontiac which is prone to spinning main bearings. Bearing crush (hoop stress in the shells) creates the friction that keeps the bearings from spinning if there is ever metal-to-metal contact between the crank and bearing. Line honing to a larger bearing bore reduces that - I'd not want to do that.
Well, not exactly. Align Honing will fix any taper, but does NOT reduce the size of the bearing bores. An alternative would be to shave the caps, and not hone. That would compress the bearings to make up for the slop. Otherwise, the best way to do it is as explained. Thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty - agreed - if the caps are cut and the bores then brought out to be round and
spec size, then all is good.
@@pete540Z Thanks Brother... much appreciated!
Bobby, I am guessing you've never built an engine.
Align boring or honing doesn't have anything to do with bearing to crank clearance work. It positions the crankshaft squarely in the block and corrects the bearing journal diameter. The bearing outside (shell) diameter is the same for all bearing undersizes and is pre-sized for proper crush to insure the back of the bearing is in full contact with the bearing cap and the main saddle to maintain the bearing clearances. Only the bearing wear-surface thickness changes for the various undersizes. You have to cut the crank journals uniformly to a standard undersize and use corresponding bearings. While they are referred to as undersize, only the journal is undersize, the bearing is actually oversize by the same amount removed from the main and rod journals less oil clearance.
At what HP do you need to switch from main bolt's to studs?
Good Question! I honestly don't know... Some guys like studs for easier head install. I've also heard they're not really needed until you're approach 20 lbs of boost. That said, if you do find a definite answer, let us know! Thanks for the comment.
@@FastMonty Terry was asking about the main bolts to studs, not head bolts to studs.
I was always told whenever you plan to make more then 600hp or are going to install a turbo/blower/super charger, then you should switch to studs in your main caps for the better clamping force. If you plan on making 1000hp+, then you better speak to the pros who build these things everyday, and get the answers you need from them, because there's a lot more than just studs needed then!
Ohhhhh, yeah that's a different answer. The answer is over 700 hp you need FOUR BOLT Mains, doesn't matter if they're studs or not. I'll be doing this next year, so stay tuned! @@Anarchy-Is-Liberty
@@FastMonty I can't speak for Pontiac, but like BBC's, the factory 4 bolt main caps tend to be a bit weaker than 2 bolt main caps, so if it's really strength you're looking for, you need to convert a 2 bolt bolt to a 4 bolt splayed billet cap block. I've known class racers using studs on 2 bolt factory blocks making 700hp. Peace.
Agreed. Splayed is the best. Thanks! @@Anarchy-Is-Liberty
If gm is ok w .007 and butler says .003. That means 3 to 7 work. N we just in a pissing contest
If and ONLY if you're building a bone stock engine. If you're boring, and stroking, the tighter tolerance range is mandatory for the higher forces. Thanks.
Any way u can make a vdo on reading the bore gauge. I can't figuer out how u got .00375
I hear you. You might need to watch it a few times. But you set your "Zero" where you measured your crank journal journal diamter. The bore indicator actually measures the difference. Hence your clearance between the journal and the bearing. In the video, the camera is offset to my eye line... and it looks like 0.004"... but, it was actually 0.0375". Hope that makes sense. @@apethings7671
Don't trust a machinist is right they just pumping out work not checking shit. You ask your friendly neighborhood machinist to deck your block to zero and he comes back with I'll get it within .005 of that number ..... Which is zero. You get a call your block is done you go down with the money you look over the block while noticing things are missing. After a little search the machinist finds your missing main bearings which were never opened. You ask how did you deck the block without installing the crank and a rod with piston? Your friendly machinist says they used math and your probably.010 in the hole. Your first red flag was the missing bearings your second red flag was the word probably. So you check yourself and using the proper method with a dial indicator you find your not .005 or under your not .010 or under your actually .018 in the hole. So then you call your friendly neighborhood machinist and tell him what you discovered. Nice guy says no problem just bring it back I'll cut it again for free. Ok cool so all I need to do is bring it back when I get out of work early enough on a Thursday the only day your open late and of course your not open weekends and make the time again transporting this engine block again because you couldn't do the job correctly the first time. Thanks friendly neighborhood machinist.
Ha! Love it! We all have crazy stories like that, which is why we now do our own work. Thanks for sharing!
Most important lesson: Don't rely on the specs supplied by the bearing manufacturer? 🤔 (I'm slow sometimes🥺)
The bearing spec for wall thickness is the Maximum. We just proved that if they're made to the minimum spec, the actual dimension can be FAR from the theoretical. So, never assume anything, and measure it. Hope that makes sense.
@@FastMonty Yes, absolutely. Thank you 👍
From the oc area
Roger that.... I'm going to try and make it there. Depends on family events... ha, ha... See ya!