I have to admit Wicked has aged better as a show, but that's just it - in that year, Avenue Q best exemplified THAT YEAR. It represents the culture and the time it was created for and what people needed in that moment, which is almost a better reason to give it the award. Lists of Best Musicals can read like a journey through time.
I can say with confidence that the reason Millie won over Urinetown in 2002 was because most audiences in a post 9/11 New York favored the nostalgic, light-hearted musical comedy over the dark-toned, witty political musical.
I've spent the past 6 hours binging your videos and I must complement you on the great production value and comprehensive detail included in all of your subjects. I have to walk my dog now or he's gonna be hostile with me! 🎉
First, excellent video. I found your channel with your Funny Girl videos and I'm glad that I checked out your other videos. Second, I wish these musicals had been in different years. Unfortunately, they had to compete. Personally, I'd have given best score to Wicked. But I think its book is lacking, so I'd give Avenue Q best book. Idk about best musical. That said, Avenue Q rubs me the wrong way re: their marketing campaign. It feels very "bought" because they went directly to the Tony voters. I also think their campaign leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because it implies all the hearts who loved Wicked are "wrong" and false because apparently only Avenue Q wins if you voted with their heart. Which I found very BS and distasteful. But both musicals had their success. Wicked is one of the biggest hits of all time. Avenue Q found success on Broadway and off Broadway, too. Both did well, both had a good run (and Wicked still has a good run), so no hard feelings, IMO.
Oh gosh, I’m so glad you did the rewind on Nathan Lane’s reaction! He was totally shocked… thanks for revealing that!! Love your narration! So informative and funny. 😅♥️
Both musicals deserved to win, and it's just bad luck they debuted the same year. I really don't like the "vote with your heart" line they kept shoving, though. That makes it sound like Avenue Q is just intrinsically better than Wicked, which honestly, it isn't. Avenue Q had one of the most talented casts ever and some great production, but it does boil down to one joke stretched over 2 hours.
I have to agree tbh. I don't like the idea that Avenue Q wins if you vote with your heart. What about the young kids/teens and young adults who genuinely love Wicked, even to this day? Are their hearts somehow wrong? It's bad campaigning and they basically "bought" their Tony's.
2004 was one of the greatest years in modern Broadway musical history. I think it's very worth noting that Assassins (competing as a revival) actually won the *most* Tonys that year, five of them. Including Best Director for Joe Mantello (who also directed Wicked but wasn't nominated for it), Best Revival, Best Featured Actor in a Musical, Best Orchestrations, Best Lighting.
Let me tell you something: in my sleepy little swedish city we absolutely do not have access to world class musicals, and I certainly have never been to New York, let alone set my foot on broadway. So I truly did not know how much I would enjoy deep dives like this and now that I’ve watched every single one of yours I wanted to show my appreciation, say thank you and also tell you that I want moooore! 🥰👏🏻 You have a really kind vibe and you make these videos with such style, care and aplomb. Your love of musicals and Broadway is infectious and every one of your videos is interesting, even to me as a total outsider. Shit who knows I might just go to New York after all 😌
That's very kind of you. Thank you and so glad you enjoy the channel. I'm taking a couple weeks off from writing while I travel, though I have my books and research with me for the next phase of content. X
Avenue Q can take best book (because Wickeds writing isn't really the best) , but Stephen Schwartz should have won for Score because the songs of Wicked defined a generation and is embedded in mainstream pop culture now.
@cate3534 I would argue that isn't true. This is purely anecdotal but I know people who have never been to a show before, who don't like musicals, who couldn't name a single show running on Broadway right now who are at least familiar with the music from wicked. That is just not true for Ave Q. The Internet is for porn just isn't nearly as well known as or for good, which I've heard sung at graduations and people don't even know it's from wicked. They just think it's a song that coral directors like or something.
I saw Avenue Q, Wicked, and Caroline or Change on Broadway that year. Personally I kind of forgot all about Wicked soon afterward. I bought the Avenue Q soundtrack and loved it for a time, but its "being PC is overrated!" comedy didn't age well, and the soundtrack didn't really offer much more on repeated listens. Caroline, or Change, though... I still return to that show now and again and discover new treasures in its lyrics, music, and performances. That show deserves WAY more recognition.
Wow, thank you for this video! The tony awards have had loopholes or unexpected winners throughout their years. I think avenue q over wicked is the most notable. Here are some in my opinion that were pretty unexpected, or big errors: Will Rogers Follies over Miss Saigon, Music Amn iver West Side Story, Two gentlemen of verona over Follies, and spamalot over light in the piazza. There are also some years that had big competition, like 1998, and 1988
Wicked's songs are epic, which generates great vocal performances, but the story is garbage. Avenue Q hits you in the heart, and it's 1000 times funnier.
I’m lukewarm on Wicked, but it’s marketing campaign was kind of amazing. I remember seeing an ad for it in the previews at a movie theatre. No wonder people were shocked to see it lose. It was everywhere.
I always thought that the Wicked soundtrack sounded like it had been written by a focus group. every song felt like it had been written to be successful with an audience, instead of to advance the plot and express the author's artistic vision. Avenue Q definitely has flaws, but sounding manufactured isn't one of them.
I am a fan of an award that can serve as an economic 'equalizer' blunting some of the inherent advantages of a huge production and advertising budget, and yes, as a bit of a loose cannonball running havoc with expectations and predictions. Surprises on Tony or Oscar night are of themselves, a nifty side benefit to the existence of an award. Its a really dull night if everything goes according to plan.
As I understand it, Tony voters felt betrayed after awarding "Avenue Q" Best Musical, as the comparably low budget musical contracted to appear in Las Vegas for a year, precluding out of town theatre owners and producers national tours until the Vegas run ended.
First of all, ‘Thank You’ Kevin for these wonderful videos of yours! They are greatly appreciated! Ethan I saw all the shows nominated that year excepting THE BOY FROM OZ (and let’s not forget TABOO which basically was shut out that year) and could not understand why AVENUE Q (aka The Dirty Puppet Musical) could have possibly won over WICKED. Or why Joe Mantello would win as Best Director for ASSASSINS instead of WICKED, for which he wasn’t even nominated. And why the ‘Perpetual Bridesmaid’ Stephen Schwartz would again loose for Best Score to that trite puppet show? I do know many people thought Kristin Chenoweth should have won in the less showy role of Glinda, truly the anchor of WICKED, because her character demonstrates true change. In the end, it’s the old argument of ‘apples to oranges.’ It’s all about opinion and individual taste. God bless Broadway!
Both of these shows deserve an equal amount of recognition. In fact, they probably will get into the medium that they were originally developed for, as Wicked was supposed to be a movie, and it's getting a film adaptation soon. I think if Avenue Q could be something similar, it should finally become a TV show, ostensibly a more successful Wonder Showzen.
Wicked should have won, hands down. Better score, better book. To this day people write it off as a basic pop musical popular with teenage girls and I think that does the show a disservice. It's a wonderful piece and deserves all the praise and success it's seen.
Avenue Q is, without a doubt, one of my top 3 favorite musicals of all time. I saw Wicked pre-Bway, in SF and I love Schwartz (I saw and loved The Magic Show) but Q was perfect!
@@audramcdonaldapologist3676 what? How it views racism? Do you not understand the mirror it holds up to society to force the audience to deal with racism - but using music and humor? smh 🤦♂️
I absolutely adore 'Caroline or Change' and wish it received better accolades. However, it was a show with quite a bit of thematic material and that wasn't the kind of show that people were wanting to see in the early 2000's. Between Wicked and Avenue Q, Avenue Q deserved to win the Tony hands down.
Here's a quick answer: Avenue Q is a better musical. (It's the same reason why Music Man won over West Side Story). I confess I knew someone who, when he told me he had invested in a musical prequel to The Wizard of Oz, I thought, "A fool and his money are soon parted" LOL.
I understand what you're saying but context of what these wins actually mean is important to consider. The Tony's are all about money and marketing shows and only circumstantially intersect with what is actually the "best". Show like "Band's Visit", "Gentlemen's Guide", "Millie", and "Passion" all won Best Musical and probably a boost at the box office while other shows that were also nominated in their respective categories that year outlived them. "Avenue Q" was always the little show that could and while it did eventually close on Broadway, it still had an extraordinary life, one that shows smaller shows should at least be given a chance from producers and audiences alike in a huge commercial setting like Broadway.
And now, Wicked is still running, joined the very small Billion Dollars Club (only the third show to do so), and is being played worldwide. I think time is still the ultimate test to tell which one is “the best”.
I have to admit Wicked has aged better as a show, but that's just it - in that year, Avenue Q best exemplified THAT YEAR. It represents the culture and the time it was created for and what people needed in that moment, which is almost a better reason to give it the award. Lists of Best Musicals can read like a journey through time.
I can say with confidence that the reason Millie won over Urinetown in 2002 was because most audiences in a post 9/11 New York favored the nostalgic, light-hearted musical comedy over the dark-toned, witty political musical.
“And a bad title even, I bet that could kill a show pretty good”
I've spent the past 6 hours binging your videos and I must complement you on the great production value and comprehensive detail included in all of your subjects. I have to walk my dog now or he's gonna be hostile with me! 🎉
Very kind. Thank you! MY dog had to put up with many a delayed walk with these episodes.
This was great, I love your sense of humor!
First, excellent video. I found your channel with your Funny Girl videos and I'm glad that I checked out your other videos.
Second, I wish these musicals had been in different years. Unfortunately, they had to compete. Personally, I'd have given best score to Wicked. But I think its book is lacking, so I'd give Avenue Q best book. Idk about best musical.
That said, Avenue Q rubs me the wrong way re: their marketing campaign. It feels very "bought" because they went directly to the Tony voters. I also think their campaign leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because it implies all the hearts who loved Wicked are "wrong" and false because apparently only Avenue Q wins if you voted with their heart. Which I found very BS and distasteful.
But both musicals had their success. Wicked is one of the biggest hits of all time. Avenue Q found success on Broadway and off Broadway, too. Both did well, both had a good run (and Wicked still has a good run), so no hard feelings, IMO.
Yay!
Avenue Q is one of the most Gen x things in existence.
Oh gosh, I’m so glad you did the rewind on Nathan Lane’s reaction! He was totally shocked… thanks for revealing that!! Love your narration! So informative and funny. 😅♥️
I don’t think it was shock I think it was kind of disgust like “really this show won?” Lol
Both musicals deserved to win, and it's just bad luck they debuted the same year. I really don't like the "vote with your heart" line they kept shoving, though. That makes it sound like Avenue Q is just intrinsically better than Wicked, which honestly, it isn't. Avenue Q had one of the most talented casts ever and some great production, but it does boil down to one joke stretched over 2 hours.
Not to mention the character of Christmas Eve, the Gary Coleman jokes, “Everyone’s A Little Racist”, Roger being gay jokes etc. It did not age well
I have to agree tbh. I don't like the idea that Avenue Q wins if you vote with your heart. What about the young kids/teens and young adults who genuinely love Wicked, even to this day? Are their hearts somehow wrong? It's bad campaigning and they basically "bought" their Tony's.
2004 was one of the greatest years in modern Broadway musical history. I think it's very worth noting that Assassins (competing as a revival) actually won the *most* Tonys that year, five of them. Including Best Director for Joe Mantello (who also directed Wicked but wasn't nominated for it), Best Revival, Best Featured Actor in a Musical, Best Orchestrations, Best Lighting.
Let me tell you something: in my sleepy little swedish city we absolutely do not have access to world class musicals, and I certainly have never been to New York, let alone set my foot on broadway. So I truly did not know how much I would enjoy deep dives like this and now that I’ve watched every single one of yours I wanted to show my appreciation, say thank you and also tell you that I want moooore! 🥰👏🏻
You have a really kind vibe and you make these videos with such style, care and aplomb. Your love of musicals and Broadway is infectious and every one of your videos is interesting, even to me as a total outsider. Shit who knows I might just go to New York after all 😌
That's very kind of you. Thank you and so glad you enjoy the channel. I'm taking a couple weeks off from writing while I travel, though I have my books and research with me for the next phase of content. X
I love both Wicked and Avenue Q
Avenue Q can take best book (because Wickeds writing isn't really the best) , but Stephen Schwartz should have won for Score because the songs of Wicked defined a generation and is embedded in mainstream pop culture now.
@cate3534 I would argue that isn't true. This is purely anecdotal but I know people who have never been to a show before, who don't like musicals, who couldn't name a single show running on Broadway right now who are at least familiar with the music from wicked. That is just not true for Ave Q. The Internet is for porn just isn't nearly as well known as or for good, which I've heard sung at graduations and people don't even know it's from wicked. They just think it's a song that coral directors like or something.
I agree. I'd give Avenue Q best book, but I'd give Wicked best score. Idk who I'd give best musical.
I saw Avenue Q, Wicked, and Caroline or Change on Broadway that year. Personally I kind of forgot all about Wicked soon afterward. I bought the Avenue Q soundtrack and loved it for a time, but its "being PC is overrated!" comedy didn't age well, and the soundtrack didn't really offer much more on repeated listens. Caroline, or Change, though... I still return to that show now and again and discover new treasures in its lyrics, music, and performances. That show deserves WAY more recognition.
I do think Caroline, or Change is the best of the three musicals, even though I like the other two better
Wow, thank you for this video! The tony awards have had loopholes or unexpected winners throughout their years. I think avenue q over wicked is the most notable. Here are some in my opinion that were pretty unexpected, or big errors: Will Rogers Follies over Miss Saigon, Music Amn iver West Side Story, Two gentlemen of verona over Follies, and spamalot over light in the piazza. There are also some years that had big competition, like 1998, and 1988
Miss Saigon had controversy tho, which probably got it snubbed more than perhaps it should have.
Great video! Excuse me while I binge them all
I remember that years tony awards but little did they know Wicked would be a global phenomenon
I’m glad RUclips recommended this! You and WitW are amazing!
Wicked's songs are epic, which generates great vocal performances, but the story is garbage.
Avenue Q hits you in the heart, and it's 1000 times funnier.
I’m lukewarm on Wicked, but it’s marketing campaign was kind of amazing. I remember seeing an ad for it in the previews at a movie theatre. No wonder people were shocked to see it lose. It was everywhere.
That poster was all over the London Underground for what seemed like years!
I always thought that the Wicked soundtrack sounded like it had been written by a focus group. every song felt like it had been written to be successful with an audience, instead of to advance the plot and express the author's artistic vision. Avenue Q definitely has flaws, but sounding manufactured isn't one of them.
Reminds me of how in 1987 everyone thought the Anything Goes revival was gonna win…
This was wonderful! Loved your wit scattered throughout. Can’t wait for more! ✌🏼🖤
I am a fan of an award that can serve as an economic 'equalizer' blunting some of the inherent advantages of a huge production and advertising budget, and yes, as a bit of a loose cannonball running havoc with expectations and predictions. Surprises on Tony or Oscar night are of themselves, a nifty side benefit to the existence of an award. Its a really dull night if everything goes according to plan.
Thank you.
As I understand it, Tony voters felt betrayed after awarding "Avenue Q" Best Musical, as the comparably low budget musical contracted to appear in Las Vegas for a year, precluding out of town theatre owners and producers national tours until the Vegas run ended.
I forgot, what was Schwartz’ most recent musical…? Has Lopez written any or a bunch of really successful things…?
Everyone should watch the ShowBusiness: The Road to Broadway to see this season organically play out in real time.
First of all, ‘Thank You’ Kevin for these wonderful videos of yours! They are greatly appreciated! Ethan
I saw all the shows nominated that year excepting THE BOY FROM OZ (and let’s not forget TABOO which basically was shut out that year) and could not understand why AVENUE Q (aka The Dirty Puppet Musical) could have possibly won over WICKED. Or why Joe Mantello would win as Best Director for ASSASSINS instead of WICKED, for which he wasn’t even nominated. And why the ‘Perpetual Bridesmaid’ Stephen Schwartz would again loose for Best Score to that trite puppet show? I do know many people thought Kristin Chenoweth should have won in the less showy role of Glinda, truly the anchor of WICKED, because her character demonstrates true change. In the end, it’s the old argument of ‘apples to oranges.’ It’s all about opinion and individual taste. God bless Broadway!
This was so fun and informative!
I remember watching the Tony’s that night and going, “puppets?!? Puppets won over Wicked? PUPPETS!?!”
But then I saw avenue and got it.
Both of these shows deserve an equal amount of recognition. In fact, they probably will get into the medium that they were originally developed for, as Wicked was supposed to be a movie, and it's getting a film adaptation soon. I think if Avenue Q could be something similar, it should finally become a TV show, ostensibly a more successful Wonder Showzen.
Avenue Q did not age well especially with its relationship with race and sexuality, we should just let it die
I was going to make a 92 page roast of avenue a in the comments but let me just say I don’t like avenue q and wicked was robbed.
*Q
I have autism and avenue Q is my special interese, like, its CRAZY how much i love this musical
Anyway, i started screaming at the top of my lungs when i watched this
11/10 good video
Are we ready for the after effects after then pandemic yet Kevin?
It’ll never be over. We’re beefing forever on this.
Assuming you mean the talk about who deserved to win, this is basically what the next episode is about.
Wicked should have won, hands down. Better score, better book. To this day people write it off as a basic pop musical popular with teenage girls and I think that does the show a disservice. It's a wonderful piece and deserves all the praise and success it's seen.
i have a special place in my heart for Avenue Q! Had some laugh out loud moments with your narration too. Congratulations!!
Thanks to you I searched Avenue Q and now I’m obsessed. I never watched the muppets growing up but this show is special
LOVED IT!
Three of the best shows in Broadway history in the same year!!! Will we ever see that again? 🥺
I saw Jackman in Boy from Oz, and Avenue Q and agree that Avenue Q should have won.
Love it!
I adore both musicals but was so happy when Avenue Q won!
Informative and entertaining. I've liked and subscribed. ♥️♥️♥️
Keep 'em coming!
Me too
How were you happy when Avenue Q won? It’s literally one joke stretched for almost 3 hours
@@audramcdonaldapologist3676 I disagree, but to each their own. :D
@@audramcdonaldapologist3676 you just copied that one comment you replied to lol
Guys, right?
Avenue Q is, without a doubt, one of my top 3 favorite musicals of all time. I saw Wicked pre-Bway, in SF and I love Schwartz (I saw and loved The Magic Show) but Q was perfect!
Avenue Q has a lot of flaws, far from “perfect” especially with how it views racism
@@audramcdonaldapologist3676 what? How it views racism? Do you not understand the mirror it holds up to society to force the audience to deal with racism - but using music and humor? smh 🤦♂️
@@audramcdonaldapologist3676 💯
@@stepawayful Oh I understand the message I'm just saying it isn't good, just because it's satire doesn't mean I have to like it
@@audramcdonaldapologist3676 you specifically said "how it views racism."
I absolutely adore 'Caroline or Change' and wish it received better accolades. However, it was a show with quite a bit of thematic material and that wasn't the kind of show that people were wanting to see in the early 2000's. Between Wicked and Avenue Q, Avenue Q deserved to win the Tony hands down.
What was that crack about Hillary :(😮?
I didn’t see it as a crack about her, I read it more as him saying that the topic is something we see even today, with Hillary vs DT as an example.
Yes.
Here's a quick answer: Avenue Q is a better musical. (It's the same reason why Music Man won over West Side Story). I confess I knew someone who, when he told me he had invested in a musical prequel to The Wizard of Oz, I thought, "A fool and his money are soon parted" LOL.
Wicked should have won. You see now that it’s still on broadway and avenue q isnt. Period
I understand what you're saying but context of what these wins actually mean is important to consider. The Tony's are all about money and marketing shows and only circumstantially intersect with what is actually the "best". Show like "Band's Visit", "Gentlemen's Guide", "Millie", and "Passion" all won Best Musical and probably a boost at the box office while other shows that were also nominated in their respective categories that year outlived them. "Avenue Q" was always the little show that could and while it did eventually close on Broadway, it still had an extraordinary life, one that shows smaller shows should at least be given a chance from producers and audiences alike in a huge commercial setting like Broadway.
And so the one who makes the most money is automatically better? Let's have an argument about the quality of Webber over Sondheim.
@@michaellevin6608 Or how Spider-Man: Turn off the Dark is better than The SpongeBob Musical, how about?
And now, Wicked is still running, joined the very small Billion Dollars Club (only the third show to do so), and is being played worldwide. I think time is still the ultimate test to tell which one is “the best”.
no, it's just mainstream so it sells
@@godroller6365 it BECAME mainstream for a reason. It’s not like it was made to become a mainstream. It’s the audience who did it.
@cate or you’re saying all that bs just because you hate Wicked in favour of a petty outdated puppet show.
@godroller6365 Wicked's timeless. Avenue Q is pretty dated and aggressively feels stuck in the Bush Jr Era
I know musical theater fans are supposed to simply love Wicked but it simply never appealed to me. I do love me some Avenue Q! ❤️