SACD Sound demo can be found below. IMO you can hear the differences much better on camera with me using higher quality source material. Sorry I couldn't include this clip in the original video without being demonetized so had to create a separate video for it. IMO the below video makes it much easier to here the differences between these two speakers. ruclips.net/video/yKJWvSotots/видео.html All of my review videos can be found here: ruclips.net/p/PLg0Xq1LbiZBU1G5L_QoXvFsgrd57qHZFd All of my look inside videos on speakers can be found here: ruclips.net/p/PLg0Xq1LbiZBXWNQtsEOqq_LynPGsLNpxy My videos about upgrading speakers can be found here: ruclips.net/p/PLg0Xq1LbiZBV3JdrXQtMPgv3Lc6YB6fdr
@generationbehindhifi I listened to the sound comparisons in this video as well as your separate video in the link above. A solid effort, but... DUDE, you need to invest in a basic but GOOD, flat measurement/recording mic and recording device! WHY??? The microphone and the recording system in your Sony 4K Handycam video camera is set to AUTO-RECORDING-LEVEL, and it is fluctuating the recording level and "pumping" like a very slow limiter/compressor with each of the deeper bass notes that the speakers play so that your recorded audio is wildly inconsistent. Even the sound of your A/B speaker switch caused the Auto-Recording-Level limiter to kick in each time you switched it! In addition, many of these types of built-in video camera microphones will do real-time Auto-Equalization processing when recording to prioritize or enhance the audio for voice intelligibility and clarity, which further molests the audio, because it is variable and changing during the recording. All of these issues can affect the perceived SPL of each speaker so that they are not consistent and level-matched, which will mask or alter the actual differences in spectral balance and clarity/detail between the two speakers. If you already own a miniDSP UMIK-1 or UMIK-2 or a similar USB measurement microphone that you use for measurements with REW, you can use it record the audio from the speakers via the free Audacity DAW software for your PC/laptop. After recording the audio, you can upload the lossless files to a cloud storage service such as Google Drive and provide a Link for your viewers/subscribers to download the raw, lossless audio files so they aren't listening and comparing via RUclips's lossy audio compression codec. Recording in 16 bit/44.1kHz lossless PCM in WAV format is more than enough to accurately capture and reproduce the audio for this purpose. I would then suggest that your viewers/subscribers download the Foobar2000 audio file playback software plus its associated ''ABX Comparator Plugin'' which will allow listeners to perform a 100% double-blind A vs. B vs. X randomized listening test using your files. You've obviously made significant investments in all of your HiFi speakers and associated HiFi electronic equipment, so ideally, I would suggest that you do the same in regards to the equipment that you use to capture the audio for these types of videos... Invest in an Earthworks M23 or QTC30 measurement/recording microphone along with a small portable digital recorder such as a ZOOM H4 or H6 Essential with XLR microphone inputs and 48v phantom power for the microphone. Or use a simple USB Audio Interface with at least 2 XLR microphone inputs with your PC, such as a MOTU M2 or M4 + the Audacity DAW software. For versatility, any USB Audio Interface that you choose should have at least 2 XLR microphone inputs and "Loopback" capability. Place the speakers next to each other in the middle of the room on bookshelf speaker stands and position the microphone at a height level that is between the top edge of the midwoofers and the bottom edge of the tweeter's waveguide on the JBL 630 speakers, On-Axis and approximately 18" away from the front baffles. This will eliminate the majority of the room's acoustic contributions and let us hear more of what the actual speakers themselves are producing while providing studio-quality sound capture. I'm not saying that I couldn't hear a difference between the two speakers with your tests as they are. But providing a much more consistent and higher recording quality will eliminate any variables and inconsistencies and reveal the actual differences to a much higher degree. HTH Cheers
@@bbfoto7248 Fair enough. I will look into your suggestions. To clarify, I'm not using the built in microphone included with my Sony 4k camera. I have an external RODE VideoMic Pro+ microphone ($300) that I used to capture these sound demos with.
@@generationbehindhifi Thanks for the clarification. 👍 In the future, I would always list these types of details in your video description. 😉 However, regardless of its cost, the external RODE VideoMic Pro+ microphone is also not ideal for this particular type of audio capture. How or what are you using to actually record the signal from the RODE mic? Can you set the recording level manually and disable any processing/filters/effects? A ~$100 USB measurement mic such as the miniDSP UMIK-1 that is positioned within 18" of the speakers using Audacity to capture the raw audio into your PC/laptop would probably still be a huge improvement vs what I heard using my calibrated studio monitors or IEMs in my home recording studio setup (I'm a saxophonist & drummer/percussionist).
@@bbfoto7248 Will do. Below is a picture of the setup I posted on instagram before posting this video. Anyways.. I really tried to capture the difference with the equipment I had and I think I did a pretty decent job of that because I can clearly hear the differences between the two speakers, especially in my second link. Are there better ways of doing this, absolutely. I appreciate your feedback and will look into the suggestions you made. instagram.com/reel/C_ite4vO2Pl/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
A cheap alternative could be the Behringer ECM8000 measurement/recording mic for $20 and a TASCAM DR-60DmkII portable recorder for $180 at Sweetwater or Amazon. Total investment of $221 with a Hosa MCL-115 15ft XLR microphone cable. Or use the Sennheiser AMBEO Binaural headset "earbud" microphones + your smartphone, but that will produce a binaural recording that would be best listened to using headphones. EDIT: I didn't see your Instagram Link and photo until after I had already posted this comment^. Thanks for that. 👍 You'll want to bring the speakers out into the room if possible, but more importantly, position the RODE microphone much closer to the speakers (no more than 18" away). Think about how close the Lav mic that you use for your dialog is to your mouth and the difference between it and the characteristics of the RODE VideoMic Pro+ when recording your voice in the room. You want to minimize the reflections and "echo" from the acoustics of the room so we can just hear what the speakers themselves are playing without any room contributions. This will help to isolate the sound quality of the speakers and provide better intelligibility. It looks like you had the height of the RODE VideoMic set close to where it should be...On-Axis and between the bottom edge of the tweeter's waveguide and the top edge of the midwoofer. And if at all possible you want to set the recording level manually and disable any processing/filters/effects/limiters in the Sony Handycam's audio section. --- OR are you using a SYNCO G2 or similar small recording device to capture the audio from the RODE VideoMic and/or your Lav mic? Cheers
I listened to the HQ music and the rotalty free stuff. Maaan the difference is night and day. I didn't think it would be that apparent especially through a RUclips video. I'm sure the imaging, depth etc add even more. Than you for this one!
@@generationbehindhifi a little off topic, got an opportunity to listen to those B&W 802Ds. OMG I have never heard imaging like that. That tweeter is just marvelous!
It's undeniable that new speakers sound better than an older speaker of the same make and model and with the same crossover components. I believe that better components might age better, but I think they tend to sound pretty much the same when they're both new. I also think that tests like these are severely limited by the inability to objectively test the performance. I was listening to the comparison from an LG 4K TV transmitting through Sennheiser MTW3 earbuds and I couldn't distinguish between the two. Just FYI, for comparisons like this, it might be a good idea to run the music mono through the two speakers while switching.
I did the same thing with an old pair of Paradigm Atoms I purchased at Goodwill for $20. With the x-over upgrade they come alive and are one of the best small speakers I've ever heard. But I paid about 6x what the speakers cost on the new xovers. Worth every penny.
Good job! I can definitely hear the difference! I have a pair of JBL 4430 studio monitors that I left in/bypassed the original crossover and built a charge coupled outboard crossover. I also put in new 5 way binding posts (bi wired) The difference was night and day. I used high end poly caps and earse air core inductors except for the woofer, I used a high end Jantsen metal core inductor because it had a lower DCR to match the old one. Totally worth the time , effort and cost as the sound is amazing.
When replacing iron core inductors with air core you also need to match the active resistance of those coils. Also when replacing electrolythic capacitors with a film capacitor value may need to be adjusted to get the same target frequency response.
An excellent reason for not going in and just replacing components in your crossover just cuz some expert on RUclips wants to sell you some "upgrades". (And you know who you are.)
I mention all of what you said in this video (maybe you skipped through? ) but its beyond the scope of what I was trying to convey. This was a simple test to see if swapping out like for like better quality components would yield a sound improvement and judging by the responses, it did.
@@generationbehindhifi The differences in coil's active resistance and differences in capacitor values at various frequences (electrolytics usually loose capacitance with a rising frequency while film caps do not) would inevitably change a frequency response from a stock unit. And that frequency response change could be perceived as a change (or improvement) in a sound quality. Those differences shouldn't be ignored as insignificant.
@@IliyaOsnovikov Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't ignore it as "insignificant". You said that. Not me. If I were ignoring it, then why did I mention these exact talking points in this video? Also, that perceived frequency response change from the components I installed could have had a negative effect, but it didn't as evident by the comments. Thanks for watching!
I've done many similar crossover parts upgrades over the years, and never failed to hear a notable difference from the better parts. The better my system got, the more difference it made, and the easier the difference was to hear. Eliminating inductive byproducts from a resistor, ferrite interference, and improving clarity in a cap or inductor is a good thing in my book. Well done.
Great video pal! Honestly, I have a hard time listening to a stock speaker knowing there is cheap parts in there holding everything back. It’s such a fun project to do. Especially if you plan on living with the speaker for a while. 👍🏻 we are so lucky to have GR Reserch helping people upgrade there speaker crossovers. Danny is the one who got me into crossover upgrades and there is no one better!
Thanks man! I created another sound demo using high quality source material and I think the differences between both speakers can be heard even better. Sadly I couldn't include it in this video without risk of being demonetized so I had to include this clip in a separate video. IMO the differences in sound can be heard much easier with this clip. Have a listen and let me know what you think. ruclips.net/video/yKJWvSotots/видео.html
Massive difference, as expected. I just finished designing 2 crossovers, 2 different speakers, to replace the stock crossovers and the differences are just as immense as in this video. Doing my own crossovers also allowed me to make my own design choices and deal with the, INHO, not so good OEM choices. It's a -must do- IMHO now. Turn OEM junk into a great speaker.... so worth the money.
Enjoyed the video and the time and effort you put into this! It might just be an artifact from recording, but the listening room sounds pretty reverberant -- might be worth looking into some acoustic treatments. Thanks for taking the time!
You're welcome! No doubt this room could definitely use some treatment. I haven't decided if I will add any or not because we don't plan on being here much longer. I bought the house as a fixer upper and I'm almost done with it.
Difference was as expected, big difference. I am using Sennheiser HD600 to listen, and left speaker had the sound "inside the box" and right was flowing into the room. Have done this myself 25 years ago, but also changing the very thin wires connected to the woofer, which gave more control at lower frequencies. I replicated crossover like you did, it was easy, as speker could be bi-wired. It was Energy C2 that I modified.
I wouldn't expect such a difference (even my very generic headsets) . The crossovers of my MA Rx6s are budget oriented as well. If I figure out the all the values, I will go ahead and rebuild them. Thanks for the experiment.
It is known to many rule that the better is speaker reproduction the bigger SUPPOSE TO BE observed differences in sounding caused by small reasons. In other words it is no effort nor big game to make it spund even awfull by small distortion of tunning or alignment . It is called speaker capability to have high resolution.
Awesome job! Thanks for finally doing this project, (I've been waiting). I actually have the speakers. Bought at approximately 1/2 price like you. Run it with a WiiM Pro+ with eq into an old Yamaha receiver. They sound good to very good with eq. The idea of taking them apart dumping $200 dollars into them and then having the crossovers on 4 boards outside the speaker won't work for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad YOU did it, and I did listen to the other video. The new ones do sound better. Great job. My skills just aren't up to that level. What I would consider is building the HiVi-Swans DIY 3 Way Passive Bookshelf Speakers with the modified crossover. Last I checked that would be around $400 all in. Would love to see you do that project. As it is I'll have to stick with the JBL's with eq. Keep up the good work!
I can definitely hear the difference ! for sure. One thing about going from iron core inductors over to air core is that you will now have a higher resistance through the inductor which "may" limit certain frequencies to the woofer. Or even change the overall sound completely ;) But regardless of that, well done! :) I love a good tinkering
Generaly induction limits current or voltage by providing so called impedance in serial or parallel . This impedance depends on two factors - inductivity and common resistance (of coil and of "looses" in rod which both are very little in compare to inductance - like 0,2 Ohm in compare to 8 Ohms ) By adding steel rod we increase inductance and steel looses in steel ( in ferrit it is even zero) The final result is equal to applied a bit more pure impedance - speaker do not "know" that phase is shifted about any 1-2 degrees which is completly meaningless in compare to shifts up to 180deg occuring normally in each speaker So ( on scientific base) I do not expect any problem with use of rods provided that they set accureate and desired effective impedance to speaker. .
I changed caps in an old pair of Polk monitors. The values were so big for the woofer circuit 2nd order low pass that the physical size of the polypropylenes wouldn't allow the crossover board to fit into the back, so I used polyester versions on the board instead. This improved the sound over the electrolytics for the woofer circuit. Polypropylenes are more important in the high pass for the tweeter. You can get away without "perfection." IOW, you don't need to have perfect components everywhere, especially on less than perfect designs, or speakers not costing thousands.
Yes - quality of the crossover parts is very important! Another aspect of the bass that is very hard to hear over YT is there are a lot of *details* in the bass that can be heard when only air core coils are used. The magnetic field in a metal core lingers for quite a while - the magnetic poles in the coil's field *reverse* 180 degrees 2X the frequency. So, a 100Hz tone has the magnetic field flipping to the opposite direction 200 times a second - which is far quicker than the magnetic field can die down in the metal core. As a result, the music quality is smeared. You can get nearly the same quality sound from the caps, and save a fair bit of the cost, if you use bypass caps (0.1F) in parallel with the main caps. I like using all Audyn Q4 caps - their 0.1uF cap is about $2.50 and so you can spend about half of what the ClarityCap cost. When I want the ClarityCap in a better speaker, I use their 0.1uF 630V CSA cap as a bypass, which costs about $16. Bypass caps open up the soundstage even more than a good metalized polypropylene film cap alone.
Good points on the bypass caps, Neil! Thanks for sharing. I created another sound demo using SACD as the source material and I think the differences can be heard much easier on camera versus using the free music that is available on youtube. Sadly I couldn't include the SACD demo into this video without being demonetized so I had to create a separate video for it. Have a listen and let me know what you think. IMO the differences between both speakers can be heard much easier with this clip. ruclips.net/video/yKJWvSotots/видео.html
I do not think magnetic field has any dimensions,. weight or capabilities to live so I do not believe it may die and need time to say good by. But in fairy tale can even have face and hands.
@@kevinchew2594 you need to get the FRD and ZMA data files for both drivers, and plug them into a program like XSim. The nominal impedance of the drivers does really matter. With SB Acoustics drivers, you have to measure them yourself.
@@Mikexception in ferrous metal, magnetic fields do take some time to die down. So, when an AC signal like music requires the magnetic field to flip its poles twice for each voltage swing - it messes up the signal.
Nice job and I enjoy your work. On the crossover. A better cap on the tweeter is always a good idea. On the woofer by going to all air core inductors the DCR will be higher than with iron cores. This makes the woofer less loud so your going to hear the tweeter more, quite a bit more. To keep the same balance you might want to measure the DCR on both before and pad down the tweeter slightly if you want to keep the stock balance of the two drivers. The improvement of film caps on the woofer will be less than changing the inductors. Big film caps are never cheep. Some by passing and better electrolytic might be a good place to save some money.
Thank you! Yeah, I touched on exactly what you said at the beginning of this video, but didn't want to go down that path -- I wanted to keep it simple. The point of this video was to see if exchanging like for like components or close to it would yield any increase in performance. Hopefully I was able to capture that for my viewers on camera. Thanks for the comment and tips on bypass caps. No doubt that is a good economical way to increase performance without spending too much.
The custom one of the right sounds like its own issues. It sounds boxy to start because of the midrange has been upped. Even though the right speaker has better detail in the bass, it sounds like it has some phase issues with the sound top to bottom. One definitely isn't better than the other.
I can easily hear a difference between the two. However, neither is a clear winner to my ears depending on the sounds and the test track. I listened on a well tuned system with DIRAC live. In some instances the original crossover sounded better, with more enjoyable decay structures. The upgraded crossover sounded more abrupt with transients. Perhaps in some cases, additional decay via iron core inductors can be desired if that’s the design objective, or if they suit the existing drivers and enclosure. I am now even more on the fence regarding my planned crossover upgrade project 😂 Fantastic content here thanks for making this.
You are kidding right? Are you saying that someone is going to “prefer” the original crossover with the very clearly veiled sound coming from it? Holy crap, WHY!?!
Treble definitely sharper on the upgrade... but its not what you want in a horn speaker... plus the $200 parts and time is definitely a bit much. Now in this case it might not be a good idea, but I can definitely see this being applied in dull sounding systems
Hi the highs are much better on the modded speaker To keep modding costs down maybe as a first action only the parts in series with the drivers could be upgraded For sure the parts in series impact more than those in parallel
I think it's funny to watch the reactions when this is done to speakers that cost more money but still have garbage quality stuff in their crossovers. I'm in a Klipsch group and as the cabinets and drivers have gotten better over the years the crossovers have dropped a lot in quality. Those guys crap the bed when one even hints about swapping things out for better parts. It's a bunch of guys driving stock 1985 Corvettes thinking they're the owners of 63 split window Vette. Everything is built to a price point and most of the big names now have shareholder profits to consider along with everything else. This was a really cool A/B test considering the limitations of listening this way.
@@billybunter3753 the older crossovers are great but the cabinets are janky. The newer ones have better cabinet bracing but weaker crossovers. I don't think they're overrated so much as underbuilt. I love my Cornwalls but I did pretty extensive mods on them. Having rebuilt several pairs of various brands of speakers I can say they're all built to a price point. I'd say the CSS and GR Research kits have better guts than most speakers under 10K.
Basic test equipment is a calibrated USB microphone (Dayton or UMIK, or DIY) for less than $100 and the free REW software. Better parts will certainly improve some things, but it is not safe to assume that JBL did an optimum job with the crossover in the first place. I believe that unless a better crossover is designed, it is not worth the investment. With a better crossover design, this could be an incredible speaker.
It doesn't matter by taking measurements unless you change the values. But the sound quality will change once you take out the cheap parts and steel connectors. I design my own speakers and crossovers and even the solder I use is high grade silver lead free. It all makes a difference and if you going to do something do it once and do it right. I can't believe how good my speakers sound compared to big names. It doesn't even compare unless you start spending some serious money. I'm not even going to get started on the technique is use for my multiple layer cabinets
Yes but what about internal volume in that crossover is a lot larger, and if you haven't got it in the cabinet make in the cabinet bigger what does sound like it, let alone the electrical interference from the driver on the crossover. Also values are not going to be the same between the two, I'm afraid putting in better components is not going to necessarily tell you that it is better. Yeah sometimes capacitors can improve the tweeters and mid-range
I build speakers with FR drivers and (for FR drivers) eltrolytic caps sound better than those yellow ceramic caps (which sound more brittle). With electrolytics the FR drivers sound more silky on electrolytic caps, but not too smooth (like when on soft dome tweeters). For soft domes, the ceramics caps sound better than electrolytics, more klangy (which soft domes tend to lack). But electrolytic caps make soft dome tweeters sound too wissy. My point is, that components can make a difference and it's all up to your ears and what you like. Cables make a difference too, cos (to me) a non soldered twisted crossover part connection sounds a lot better than soldered joints. Maybe it's cos it's Schiit solder. The solder sounds a bit scratchy compared to a directly twisted joint. The crossover componets are directly connected without any extra wire in between the components (where possible, and that's most, if nor all of the crossover). Usually my crossovers only have several parts. And an interconnecting wired twisted connection sounds different again (and sounds a bit too smooth for me). But (in all 3 cases) the sound is all there! It just sounds different, so cables should also sound different. But I have a trained ear, from voicing my speakers. And that's the hardest part in designing and building speakers and it can take a while, and I have build way more than one pair of speakers. 😂
One way to save a few dollars would be not to change out the capacitors that are going to ground. Only change out the ones in the signal path. BTW, you can take a 4.0 mH and unwind it to 3.9 if you have a bridge to measure it.
Am I right that was about $200 for one speaker? Also it seemed to me that the levels are different - indeed you've changed the circuit. I think really level matched and double blind is a better way to do this.
Depends on the speaker really, The problem is that there are some speakers that even with middle of the road components were so very well engineered that if and when you change the crossover you change the ( BALANCE) …..and balance is one of the single most important thinks in audio and problably why you bought that speaker in first place. Examples: spendor bc1 , almost any of the bbc interactions ,ls3/5a etc..etc. Proac 1sc , Mission 751 ( original ) and the list goes on, So….while there are a ( lot) of speakers that gain with better crossover parts , not every speaker reacts like that , be careful when doing this ! Having said this most speakers do react positive to better parts , but like everything in life, there are exceptions , Even when the speaker do get better and measures better, who is going to say that you will like the new ( BALANCE) better ?????? Sometimes perfection is not what you want .
Magic! j/k There is no way that is fitting in the cabinet! This is all external. :) There are a few shots of the crossover boards next to the speakers in this video.
There’s a noticeable day and night difference in sound quality, I would love to be that handy and build a crossover or any advice on where to buy them ready to install it?
Thank you! My advice would be to purchase a set of speakers from a garage sale and start tinkering with them. That way if you mess up, your out very little money. Its a good way to build up your soldering skills and see what components make the most difference. There are also plenty of youtube videos that will show you how to build a crossover for a speaker. Hope this helps! Happy listening!
Take the crossover out, use one high quality capacitor to protect tweeter from low frequencies (eg amp turn on bump), then use a dsp to crossover actively and bi-amp, the difference is shocking, the precision of time and phase alignment will make the midrange crystal clear and very holographic, it’s not an accident that nearly all studio monitors are done this way, and many having a digital input so the signal does not have to go through another conversion stage, but nice job by the way with improved crossover….
You're never going to be able to convince these guys that the only reason passive crossovers were ever designed was because you could combine multiple drivers on one channel. Passives have always been a band aid or compromised solution since in the past going active wasnt practical. Of course many manufacturers within the industry would try and profit off of this band aid with msrketing all kinds of hype and snake oil into passive components such as overpriced capacitors and other fancy inductors.
@@FrankBennett-kb7xs exactly, the performance upgrade you get by going fully active is astounding, the only one I remember being able to do this, and still can is Linn, you would think that they were able to sell more amplifiers and active crossover would be incentive enough
Yeah, I know. I even talked about in this video but that's beyond the scope of this video. This was a simple test to see if swapping out like for like components would make a difference in sound quality for the better.
Hi, I enjoyed this video. The difference between the two is night and day, the factory speaker sounds muffled in comparison. Would you be able to put a monetary value to the sound on the upgraded pair? i.e. Would they now sound like a $1500+ speaker? I am bout 4 years into my hifi hobby, I became intrigued by the thought of modifying speakers and once expressed this interest on a forum. Some vastly more experienced 'audiophiles' told me in no uncertain terms, that bits are bits and upgrading the crossover would be a waste of time. I recently found a good deal on some Heco Celan Revolution 3's. I must say, they are the best speaker I have owned but after watching a youtube review and seeing inside them, I feel like they would be a relatively easy speaker to modify and improve. If you are interested, this is the review. Skip to 09:45 to get to the part where he opens up the speaker and decided to add some cabinet bracing. ruclips.net/video/k6aTumyJo9I/видео.html Keep the great content flowing!
Thank you! I love to tinker with speakers that's for sure, so if you like this kind of stuff, then you are in the right place. Below is a playlist to all of my speaker upgrade videos. You know... I never thought about it that way. After the crossover upgrade I think my Studio 630s probably sound more speakers in the $800-$900 price range. I do prefer my 630 over the my KEF Q350s after the upgrades. Hopefully this give you an idea of what kind of performance I was able to achieve from them. Speaker upgrade playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLg0Xq1LbiZBV3JdrXQtMPgv3Lc6YB6fdr
As for me, you made a mistake in the high-frequency path. Capacitor coil capacitor and not two capacitors one behind the other. There should be a 3rd row there, not a second one with series capacitors. That's not how it's done.
There will always be an improvement when inferior parts are replaced with superior parts. But, you will be hard pressed to notice a significant difference. When replacing quality parts i.e. Metalized polypropylene caps with film & foil. Or, air core inductors of sufficient guage with foil inductors. These upgrades really only prove to be reasonable when getting rid of known electrical inferior parts. Don't expect a quality aluminum film & foil cap to be noticeably inferior to a Teflon, Paper & Oil, Silver/Copper foil cap, etc. Of course, the higher the price for such components breeds confirmation bias. Who wants to admit to themselves that the $1.75 1uf Solen cap that was replaced by a $100.00 1uf Jantzen. Didn't make any difference in response!
For sure there comes a point of diminishing returns, but that's basically this hobby in a nutshell. I was recently at high end audio store that actually sells speaker cable with a black box for over $100k a pair. When I asked if they were made from precision metals the sales person said no, the "black box" is the secret sauce here. Sure, no thanks!
I hear there are profound differences in sound and tonal shift. The problem is they both sound pretty bad. Maybe the 630 is just a crummy speaker or the music is not very resolved, or maybe you’re using a $2 microphone….? Which one it is? I know parts make a big difference.
Yeah! I have heard about active crossovers/DSPs and no doubt I'm sold. Maybe one day I will play around with them. Right now there is only so much time in a day.
@generationbehindhifi car audio is well ahead of the game there. Every little cheap Kenwood headunit has active crossovers... So do home theater Amps but not as customizable and often only meant to separate the bass, fronts and surrounds in the low end. I would buy a car audio DSP, feed it 12V in some homemade way, buy a cheap measuring mic and go to town! Thats "only" about $600 - $1000. 😬
My question would be about accuracy match for value of replaced elements . Why you did not present values - how much "better ones" were in reality identical to "worse ones "? How much accuracy you assured? Only then I could have any confidence Second it is unscienfific to make test of comparison and in introduction give full support to one of solutions due to presented in advance learned basics (ex time delay expectation counted in miliseconds without noticeable resistance in circiut of capacitor) i will care for brand and technology of electronic elements when they will be included in rules of theoretical phisic to which sceintists build space crafts. . Example law says time delay is to be evalulated byexclusively resistance x capacity RxC . Resistance R for capacity is measured zero - how time delay may be not zero? Induction is theoreticaly calculated by count of wires, their dimensions nad magnetic coefficient for environment. Laerned "basic" you claim depends on any "speed of reaction of rod" BTW are they also slowed in steel discs of hard drives writing down gigabites in seconds? ? Are mentioned basics for sure proven true? PS. I proven to myself that many speaker producers cannot on line care enough for accuracy of values and it is normal to make improvements just by tunning values. Of course I expect that high priced elelents are selected to better match to what is requested by designer but it may be spared by just matching cheaper elements DIY.
I must say RUclips didn't do this experiment any. But I will say I have a pair of "Polk audio monitor 70 series 2 towers" and let me tell you . When I upgraded the crossover it was cleaner , clearer like glass. Big difference. Much much clearer enjoyable to any music you listen to. If you're a mechanically inclined I suggest to go ahead and a , b the sound signature of both. I guess my towers is around 15 to 20 years old now. When I did the upgrade that made them, sound like they came fresh out of the factory. But 10× better sounding.
A esos niveles de potencia, los inductores con núcleo difícilmente lleguen a su saturación y los capacitores electrolíticos por debajo de los 4 o 5 khz no generan aberraciones audibles ni medibles de ningún tipo. los de harman lo saben
A lot of room interference with your audio, a shame , Also a shame that you didn’t separate the speakers a bit more from each other to enhance separation and thus a more coherent sq from a one point source each time . But good anyway , easy to ear a difference
JBL is now owned by some Korean company that its new product lines are different compared from its before. Another American legend company gone, period. 😢
Try having a listen using the below link. In the video below I used high quality source material (SACD) for the demo and to me its much easier to tell the differences between the two speakers. Sadly I couldn't include this clip in this video without risk of being demonetized. ruclips.net/video/yKJWvSotots/видео.html
@@generationbehindhifi Wow ya I can hear a difference in that video link. The upgraded one with vocals sounds weird. Vocals and guitar sounded hollow and canned. There seemed to be a whole in the sound with vocals and guitars. At times the stock one did sound a little congested but I couldn’t get past the change in the vocals and guitars in the upgraded one. Must be me, maybe I’m just so used to lesser quality it seems normal to me!!
@@Carl-bd1rf When one actually designs and tests and refines a crossover they can deal with all of the tone and etc differences and get it completely dialed in.
SACD Sound demo can be found below. IMO you can hear the differences much better on camera with me using higher quality source material. Sorry I couldn't include this clip in the original video without being demonetized so had to create a separate video for it. IMO the below video makes it much easier to here the differences between these two speakers.
ruclips.net/video/yKJWvSotots/видео.html
All of my review videos can be found here: ruclips.net/p/PLg0Xq1LbiZBU1G5L_QoXvFsgrd57qHZFd
All of my look inside videos on speakers can be found here: ruclips.net/p/PLg0Xq1LbiZBXWNQtsEOqq_LynPGsLNpxy
My videos about upgrading speakers can be found here: ruclips.net/p/PLg0Xq1LbiZBV3JdrXQtMPgv3Lc6YB6fdr
@generationbehindhifi
I listened to the sound comparisons in this video as well as your separate video in the link above.
A solid effort, but...
DUDE, you need to invest in a basic but GOOD, flat measurement/recording mic and recording device!
WHY???
The microphone and the recording system in your Sony 4K Handycam video camera is set to AUTO-RECORDING-LEVEL, and it is fluctuating the recording level and "pumping" like a very slow limiter/compressor with each of the deeper bass notes that the speakers play so that your recorded audio is wildly inconsistent.
Even the sound of your A/B speaker switch caused the Auto-Recording-Level limiter to kick in each time you switched it!
In addition, many of these types of built-in video camera microphones will do real-time Auto-Equalization processing when recording to prioritize or enhance the audio for voice intelligibility and clarity, which further molests the audio, because it is variable and changing during the recording.
All of these issues can affect the perceived SPL of each speaker so that they are not consistent and level-matched, which will mask or alter the actual differences in spectral balance and clarity/detail between the two speakers.
If you already own a miniDSP UMIK-1 or UMIK-2 or a similar USB measurement microphone that you use for measurements with REW, you can use it record the audio from the speakers via the free Audacity DAW software for your PC/laptop.
After recording the audio, you can upload the lossless files to a cloud storage service such as Google Drive and provide a Link for your viewers/subscribers to download the raw, lossless audio files so they aren't listening and comparing via RUclips's lossy audio compression codec. Recording in 16 bit/44.1kHz lossless PCM in WAV format is more than enough to accurately capture and reproduce the audio for this purpose.
I would then suggest that your viewers/subscribers download the Foobar2000 audio file playback software plus its associated ''ABX Comparator Plugin'' which will allow listeners to perform a 100% double-blind A vs. B vs. X randomized listening test using your files.
You've obviously made significant investments in all of your HiFi speakers and associated HiFi electronic equipment, so ideally, I would suggest that you do the same in regards to the equipment that you use to capture the audio for these types of videos...
Invest in an Earthworks M23 or QTC30 measurement/recording microphone along with a small portable digital recorder such as a ZOOM H4 or H6 Essential with XLR microphone inputs and 48v phantom power for the microphone.
Or use a simple USB Audio Interface with at least 2 XLR microphone inputs with your PC, such as a MOTU M2 or M4 + the Audacity DAW software. For versatility, any USB Audio Interface that you choose should have at least 2 XLR microphone inputs and "Loopback" capability.
Place the speakers next to each other in the middle of the room on bookshelf speaker stands and position the microphone at a height level that is between the top edge of the midwoofers and the bottom edge of the tweeter's waveguide on the JBL 630 speakers, On-Axis and approximately 18" away from the front baffles.
This will eliminate the majority of the room's acoustic contributions and let us hear more of what the actual speakers themselves are producing while providing studio-quality sound capture.
I'm not saying that I couldn't hear a difference between the two speakers with your tests as they are. But providing a much more consistent and higher recording quality will eliminate any variables and inconsistencies and reveal the actual differences to a much higher degree.
HTH
Cheers
@@bbfoto7248 Fair enough. I will look into your suggestions. To clarify, I'm not using the built in microphone included with my Sony 4k camera. I have an external RODE VideoMic Pro+ microphone ($300) that I used to capture these sound demos with.
@@generationbehindhifi
Thanks for the clarification. 👍 In the future, I would always list these types of details in your video description. 😉
However, regardless of its cost, the external RODE VideoMic Pro+ microphone is also not ideal for this particular type of audio capture.
How or what are you using to actually record the signal from the RODE mic? Can you set the recording level manually and disable any processing/filters/effects?
A ~$100 USB measurement mic such as the miniDSP UMIK-1 that is positioned within 18" of the speakers using Audacity to capture the raw audio into your PC/laptop would probably still be a huge improvement vs what I heard using my calibrated studio monitors or IEMs in my home recording studio setup (I'm a saxophonist & drummer/percussionist).
@@bbfoto7248 Will do. Below is a picture of the setup I posted on instagram before posting this video. Anyways.. I really tried to capture the difference with the equipment I had and I think I did a pretty decent job of that because I can clearly hear the differences between the two speakers, especially in my second link. Are there better ways of doing this, absolutely.
I appreciate your feedback and will look into the suggestions you made.
instagram.com/reel/C_ite4vO2Pl/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
A cheap alternative could be the Behringer ECM8000 measurement/recording mic for $20 and a TASCAM DR-60DmkII portable recorder for $180 at Sweetwater or Amazon. Total investment of $221 with a Hosa MCL-115 15ft XLR microphone cable.
Or use the Sennheiser AMBEO Binaural headset "earbud" microphones + your smartphone, but that will produce a binaural recording that would be best listened to using headphones.
EDIT: I didn't see your Instagram Link and photo until after I had already posted this comment^. Thanks for that. 👍
You'll want to bring the speakers out into the room if possible, but more importantly, position the RODE microphone much closer to the speakers (no more than 18" away). Think about how close the Lav mic that you use for your dialog is to your mouth and the difference between it and the characteristics of the RODE VideoMic Pro+ when recording your voice in the room.
You want to minimize the reflections and "echo" from the acoustics of the room so we can just hear what the speakers themselves are playing without any room contributions. This will help to isolate the sound quality of the speakers and provide better intelligibility.
It looks like you had the height of the RODE VideoMic set close to where it should be...On-Axis and between the bottom edge of the tweeter's waveguide and the top edge of the midwoofer.
And if at all possible you want to set the recording level manually and disable any processing/filters/effects/limiters in the Sony Handycam's audio section.
--- OR are you using a SYNCO G2 or similar small recording device to capture the audio from the RODE VideoMic and/or your Lav mic?
Cheers
I listened to the HQ music and the rotalty free stuff. Maaan the difference is night and day. I didn't think it would be that apparent especially through a RUclips video.
I'm sure the imaging, depth etc add even more. Than you for this one!
Thank you! In person the differences is even more apparent.
@@generationbehindhifi a little off topic, got an opportunity to listen to those B&W 802Ds. OMG I have never heard imaging like that. That tweeter is just marvelous!
Wow I wasn't expecting such a drastic difference. sweet 😊
It's undeniable that new speakers sound better than an older speaker of the same make and model and with the same crossover components. I believe that better components might age better, but I think they tend to sound pretty much the same when they're both new.
I also think that tests like these are severely limited by the inability to objectively test the performance.
I was listening to the comparison from an LG 4K TV transmitting through Sennheiser MTW3 earbuds and I couldn't distinguish between the two.
Just FYI, for comparisons like this, it might be a good idea to run the music mono through the two speakers while switching.
Ooh this was clearly audable 😱 Didn't expect that a video camera would be able to pickup these differences so clearly 😊
I did the same thing with an old pair of Paradigm Atoms I purchased at Goodwill for $20. With the x-over upgrade they come alive and are one of the best small speakers I've ever heard. But I paid about 6x what the speakers cost on the new xovers. Worth every penny.
Good job! I can definitely hear the difference! I have a pair of JBL 4430 studio monitors that I left in/bypassed the original crossover and built a charge coupled outboard crossover. I also put in new 5 way binding posts (bi wired) The difference was night and day. I used high end poly caps and earse air core inductors except for the woofer, I used a high end Jantsen metal core inductor because it had a lower DCR to match the old one. Totally worth the time , effort and cost as the sound is amazing.
When replacing iron core inductors with air core you also need to match the active resistance of those coils. Also when replacing electrolythic capacitors with a film capacitor value may need to be adjusted to get the same target frequency response.
An excellent reason for not going in and just replacing components in your crossover just cuz some expert on RUclips wants to sell you some "upgrades". (And you know who you are.)
I mention all of what you said in this video (maybe you skipped through? ) but its beyond the scope of what I was trying to convey. This was a simple test to see if swapping out like for like better quality components would yield a sound improvement and judging by the responses, it did.
@@sPi711 I don't know if that is directed at me, but I'm not trying to sell anyone anything.
@@generationbehindhifi The differences in coil's active resistance and differences in capacitor values at various frequences (electrolytics usually loose capacitance with a rising frequency while film caps do not) would inevitably change a frequency response from a stock unit. And that frequency response change could be perceived as a change (or improvement) in a sound quality. Those differences shouldn't be ignored as insignificant.
@@IliyaOsnovikov Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't ignore it as "insignificant". You said that. Not me. If I were ignoring it, then why did I mention these exact talking points in this video? Also, that perceived frequency response change from the components I installed could have had a negative effect, but it didn't as evident by the comments. Thanks for watching!
I've done many similar crossover parts upgrades over the years, and never failed to hear a notable difference from the better parts. The better my system got, the more difference it made, and the easier the difference was to hear. Eliminating inductive byproducts from a resistor, ferrite interference, and improving clarity in a cap or inductor is a good thing in my book. Well done.
Thanks, Scott! It was a fun project and I had fun doing it.
Satisfy curiosity of the mind is the only thing worth caring about. Great stuff!
Well said! :)
The upgrade sounds cleaner.Thank you for all your work.Love the channel keep up the great work.
Thank you! I appreciate the kind words!
Great video pal! Honestly, I have a hard time listening to a stock speaker knowing there is cheap parts in there holding everything back. It’s such a fun project to do. Especially if you plan on living with the speaker for a while. 👍🏻 we are so lucky to have GR Reserch helping people upgrade there speaker crossovers. Danny is the one who got me into crossover upgrades and there is no one better!
Thanks man! I created another sound demo using high quality source material and I think the differences between both speakers can be heard even better. Sadly I couldn't include it in this video without risk of being demonetized so I had to include this clip in a separate video. IMO the differences in sound can be heard much easier with this clip. Have a listen and let me know what you think.
ruclips.net/video/yKJWvSotots/видео.html
Massive difference, as expected. I just finished designing 2 crossovers, 2 different speakers, to replace the stock crossovers and the differences are just as immense as in this video. Doing my own crossovers also allowed me to make my own design choices and deal with the, INHO, not so good OEM choices. It's a -must do- IMHO now. Turn OEM junk into a great speaker.... so worth the money.
@@bayard1332 the oem choices are a rip off. Replace it with a decent one, then the transformation begins.
Enjoyed the video and the time and effort you put into this! It might just be an artifact from recording, but the listening room sounds pretty reverberant -- might be worth looking into some acoustic treatments. Thanks for taking the time!
You're welcome!
No doubt this room could definitely use some treatment. I haven't decided if I will add any or not because we don't plan on being here much longer. I bought the house as a fixer upper and I'm almost done with it.
Very interesting video! The difference is really impressive! Thank you!
Love your videos. Always look forward to the tear downs. This was a nice little bonus.
Thank you! I really appreciate the kind words!
Yes, very apparent. Good video and proof to the naysayers!
Difference was as expected, big difference.
I am using Sennheiser HD600 to listen, and left speaker had the sound "inside the box" and right was flowing into the room.
Have done this myself 25 years ago, but also changing the very thin wires connected to the woofer, which gave more control at lower frequencies.
I replicated crossover like you did, it was easy, as speker could be bi-wired. It was Energy C2 that I modified.
Well done!
Huge difference,thanks for a great video
This was quite a difference, wow.👏
Your channel rocks man.
Thanks, Buddy! I really appreciate that!
Noticeable improvement
I wouldn't expect such a difference (even my very generic headsets) . The crossovers of my MA Rx6s are budget oriented as well. If I figure out the all the values, I will go ahead and rebuild them.
Thanks for the experiment.
It is known to many rule that the better is speaker reproduction the bigger SUPPOSE TO BE observed differences in sounding caused by small reasons. In other words it is no effort nor big game to make it spund even awfull by small distortion of tunning or alignment . It is called speaker capability to have high resolution.
Awesome job! Thanks for finally doing this project, (I've been waiting). I actually have the speakers. Bought at approximately 1/2 price like you. Run it with a WiiM Pro+ with eq into an old Yamaha receiver. They sound good to very good with eq. The idea of taking them apart dumping $200 dollars into them and then having the crossovers on 4 boards outside the speaker won't work for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad YOU did it, and I did listen to the other video. The new ones do sound better. Great job. My skills just aren't up to that level. What I would consider is building the HiVi-Swans DIY 3 Way Passive Bookshelf Speakers with the modified crossover. Last I checked that would be around $400 all in. Would love to see you do that project. As it is I'll have to stick with the JBL's with eq. Keep up the good work!
I can definitely hear the difference ! for sure. One thing about going from iron core inductors over to air core is that you will now have a higher resistance through the inductor which "may" limit certain frequencies to the woofer. Or even change the overall sound completely ;)
But regardless of that, well done! :) I love a good tinkering
Generaly induction limits current or voltage by providing so called impedance in serial or parallel . This impedance depends on two factors - inductivity and common resistance (of coil and of "looses" in rod which both are very little in compare to inductance - like 0,2 Ohm in compare to 8 Ohms ) By adding steel rod we increase inductance and steel looses in steel ( in ferrit it is even zero) The final result is equal to applied a bit more pure impedance - speaker do not "know" that phase is shifted about any 1-2 degrees which is completly meaningless in compare to shifts up to 180deg occuring normally in each speaker So ( on scientific base) I do not expect any problem with use of rods provided that they set accureate and desired effective impedance to speaker. .
I changed caps in an old pair of Polk monitors. The values were so big for the woofer circuit 2nd order low pass that the physical size of the polypropylenes wouldn't allow the crossover board to fit into the back, so I used polyester versions on the board instead. This improved the sound over the electrolytics for the woofer circuit. Polypropylenes are more important in the high pass for the tweeter. You can get away without "perfection." IOW, you don't need to have perfect components everywhere, especially on less than perfect designs, or speakers not costing thousands.
Yes - quality of the crossover parts is very important! Another aspect of the bass that is very hard to hear over YT is there are a lot of *details* in the bass that can be heard when only air core coils are used. The magnetic field in a metal core lingers for quite a while - the magnetic poles in the coil's field *reverse* 180 degrees 2X the frequency. So, a 100Hz tone has the magnetic field flipping to the opposite direction 200 times a second - which is far quicker than the magnetic field can die down in the metal core. As a result, the music quality is smeared.
You can get nearly the same quality sound from the caps, and save a fair bit of the cost, if you use bypass caps (0.1F) in parallel with the main caps. I like using all Audyn Q4 caps - their 0.1uF cap is about $2.50 and so you can spend about half of what the ClarityCap cost. When I want the ClarityCap in a better speaker, I use their 0.1uF 630V CSA cap as a bypass, which costs about $16. Bypass caps open up the soundstage even more than a good metalized polypropylene film cap alone.
Good points on the bypass caps, Neil! Thanks for sharing.
I created another sound demo using SACD as the source material and I think the differences can be heard much easier on camera versus using the free music that is available on youtube. Sadly I couldn't include the SACD demo into this video without being demonetized so I had to create a separate video for it. Have a listen and let me know what you think. IMO the differences between both speakers can be heard much easier with this clip. ruclips.net/video/yKJWvSotots/видео.html
I do not think magnetic field has any dimensions,. weight or capabilities to live so I do not believe it may die and need time to say good by. But in fairy tale can even have face and hands.
Halo , I am newbie can teach me how to design 2way 8ohm crossover with sb accoustics speakers ? Tq
@@kevinchew2594 you need to get the FRD and ZMA data files for both drivers, and plug them into a program like XSim. The nominal impedance of the drivers does really matter.
With SB Acoustics drivers, you have to measure them yourself.
@@Mikexception in ferrous metal, magnetic fields do take some time to die down. So, when an AC signal like music requires the magnetic field to flip its poles twice for each voltage swing - it messes up the signal.
Nice job and I enjoy your work. On the crossover. A better cap on the tweeter is always a good idea. On the woofer by going to all air core inductors the DCR will be higher than with iron cores. This makes the woofer less loud so your going to hear the tweeter more, quite a bit more. To keep the same balance you might want to measure the DCR on both before and pad down the tweeter slightly if you want to keep the stock balance of the two drivers. The improvement of film caps on the woofer will be less than changing the inductors. Big film caps are never cheep. Some by passing and better electrolytic might be a good place to save some money.
Thank you! Yeah, I touched on exactly what you said at the beginning of this video, but didn't want to go down that path -- I wanted to keep it simple. The point of this video was to see if exchanging like for like components or close to it would yield any increase in performance. Hopefully I was able to capture that for my viewers on camera.
Thanks for the comment and tips on bypass caps. No doubt that is a good economical way to increase performance without spending too much.
I hear a difference on my cheap work headset. Upgraded speaker noticeably clearer and open sounding.
The custom one of the right sounds like its own issues. It sounds boxy to start because of the midrange has been upped. Even though the right speaker has better detail in the bass, it sounds like it has some phase issues with the sound top to bottom. One definitely isn't better than the other.
Good job 👍
Thanks 👍
I can easily hear a difference between the two. However, neither is a clear winner to my ears depending on the sounds and the test track. I listened on a well tuned system with DIRAC live. In some instances the original crossover sounded better, with more enjoyable decay structures. The upgraded crossover sounded more abrupt with transients. Perhaps in some cases, additional decay via iron core inductors can be desired if that’s the design objective, or if they suit the existing drivers and enclosure. I am now even more on the fence regarding my planned crossover upgrade project 😂 Fantastic content here thanks for making this.
Different yes. Better … ? Depends a/on sound sound you like and rest of system.
You are kidding right? Are you saying that someone is going to “prefer” the original crossover with the very clearly veiled sound coming from it? Holy crap, WHY!?!
Treble definitely sharper on the upgrade... but its not what you want in a horn speaker... plus the $200 parts and time is definitely a bit much. Now in this case it might not be a good idea, but I can definitely see this being applied in dull sounding systems
$200 is cheap. Super cheap for the improvements that you get.
Even my TV recognized the difference at high frequency
I removed everything and it sounds better. I also performed the same thing on my vehicles. The CATS get removed and gutted! More power better sound.
I say it's like a 35% improvement ✊🏼🤓 all for science. Can you improve the Monitor Audio Bronze 😁
Hi the highs are much better on the modded speaker To keep modding costs down maybe as a first action only the parts in series with the drivers could be upgraded For sure the parts in series impact more than those in parallel
I think it's funny to watch the reactions when this is done to speakers that cost more money but still have garbage quality stuff in their crossovers. I'm in a Klipsch group and as the cabinets and drivers have gotten better over the years the crossovers have dropped a lot in quality. Those guys crap the bed when one even hints about swapping things out for better parts. It's a bunch of guys driving stock 1985 Corvettes thinking they're the owners of 63 split window Vette. Everything is built to a price point and most of the big names now have shareholder profits to consider along with everything else. This was a really cool A/B test considering the limitations of listening this way.
Yes, Klipsch are very overrated! Hollow cabinets with little bracing, cheap pressed metal basket woofers, poor quality crossovers!
@@billybunter3753 the older crossovers are great but the cabinets are janky. The newer ones have better cabinet bracing but weaker crossovers. I don't think they're overrated so much as underbuilt. I love my Cornwalls but I did pretty extensive mods on them. Having rebuilt several pairs of various brands of speakers I can say they're all built to a price point. I'd say the CSS and GR Research kits have better guts than most speakers under 10K.
Basic test equipment is a calibrated USB microphone (Dayton or UMIK, or DIY) for less than $100 and the free REW software. Better parts will certainly improve some things, but it is not safe to assume that JBL did an optimum job with the crossover in the first place. I believe that unless a better crossover is designed, it is not worth the investment. With a better crossover design, this could be an incredible speaker.
It doesn't matter by taking measurements unless you change the values. But the sound quality will change once you take out the cheap parts and steel connectors. I design my own speakers and crossovers and even the solder I use is high grade silver lead free. It all makes a difference and if you going to do something do it once and do it right. I can't believe how good my speakers sound compared to big names. It doesn't even compare unless you start spending some serious money. I'm not even going to get started on the technique is use for my multiple layer cabinets
Yes but what about internal volume in that crossover is a lot larger, and if you haven't got it in the cabinet make in the cabinet bigger what does sound like it, let alone the electrical interference from the driver on the crossover. Also values are not going to be the same between the two, I'm afraid putting in better components is not going to necessarily tell you that it is better. Yeah sometimes capacitors can improve the tweeters and mid-range
Awesome!! Now I need to know what this upgrades would do to the ma bronze 100 and kef q350
KEF Q350 crossover upgrade video coming soon. :)
A lot.
That's interesting and easy to do yourself
More clarity and vetter dynamics on the modified one.
I build speakers with FR drivers and (for FR drivers) eltrolytic caps sound better than those yellow ceramic caps (which sound more brittle). With electrolytics the FR drivers sound more silky on electrolytic caps, but not too smooth (like when on soft dome tweeters). For soft domes, the ceramics caps sound better than electrolytics, more klangy (which soft domes tend to lack). But electrolytic caps make soft dome tweeters sound too wissy. My point is, that components can make a difference and it's all up to your ears and what you like.
Cables make a difference too, cos (to me) a non soldered twisted crossover part connection sounds a lot better than soldered joints. Maybe it's cos it's Schiit solder. The solder sounds a bit scratchy compared to a directly twisted joint. The crossover componets are directly connected without any extra wire in between the components (where possible, and that's most, if nor all of the crossover). Usually my crossovers only have several parts. And an interconnecting wired twisted connection sounds different again (and sounds a bit too smooth for me). But (in all 3 cases) the sound is all there! It just sounds different, so cables should also sound different. But I have a trained ear, from voicing my speakers. And that's the hardest part in designing and building speakers and it can take a while, and I have build way more than one pair of speakers. 😂
One way to save a few dollars would be not to change out the capacitors that are going to ground. Only change out the ones in the signal path. BTW, you can take a 4.0 mH and unwind it to 3.9 if you have a bridge to measure it.
Im considering doing this for my cerwin vega 1515. have seen people upgrade the xovers with good results on them
Am I right that was about $200 for one speaker? Also it seemed to me that the levels are different - indeed you've changed the circuit. I think really level matched and double blind is a better way to do this.
It cost me $200 in parts to rebuild the crossovers for both speakers.
Could you do a similar upgrade to the Elac DBR62 crossover?
Can you do a review of the acoustic energy AE 500 speakers please
Thanks for the suggestions. You're the first to recommend that brand so we will see.
Depends on the speaker really,
The problem is that there are some speakers that even with middle of the road components were so very well engineered that if and when you change the crossover you change the ( BALANCE) …..and balance is one of the single most important thinks in audio and problably why you bought that speaker in first place.
Examples: spendor bc1 , almost any of the bbc interactions ,ls3/5a etc..etc.
Proac 1sc , Mission 751 ( original ) and the list goes on,
So….while there are a ( lot) of speakers that gain with better crossover parts , not every speaker reacts like that , be careful when doing this !
Having said this most speakers do react positive to better parts , but like everything in life, there are exceptions ,
Even when the speaker do get better and measures better, who is going to say that you will like the new ( BALANCE) better ??????
Sometimes perfection is not what you want .
How did you get all that inside the cabinet? Or is it external?
Magic! j/k There is no way that is fitting in the cabinet! This is all external. :) There are a few shots of the crossover boards next to the speakers in this video.
I could hear the difference on my phone speaker which I didn't think was possible. I was going to listen to it at home but no need!
Most budget speakers, manufacture's cut corners on crossover. I would invest in better crossovers.
Actually I was shocked by the quality of some high end speaker crossovers too. I will no t buy another speaker without knowing about its crossover!
There’s a noticeable day and night difference in sound quality, I would love to be that handy and build a crossover or any advice on where to buy them ready to install it?
Thank you! My advice would be to purchase a set of speakers from a garage sale and start tinkering with them. That way if you mess up, your out very little money. Its a good way to build up your soldering skills and see what components make the most difference. There are also plenty of youtube videos that will show you how to build a crossover for a speaker. Hope this helps! Happy listening!
Take the crossover out, use one high quality capacitor to protect tweeter from low frequencies (eg amp turn on bump), then use a dsp to crossover actively and bi-amp, the difference is shocking, the precision of time and phase alignment will make the midrange crystal clear and very holographic, it’s not an accident that nearly all studio monitors are done this way, and many having a digital input so the signal does not have to go through another conversion stage, but nice job by the way with improved crossover….
You're never going to be able to convince these guys that the only reason passive crossovers were ever designed was because you could combine multiple drivers on one channel. Passives have always been a band aid or compromised solution since in the past going active wasnt practical. Of course many manufacturers within the industry would try and profit off of this band aid with msrketing all kinds of hype and snake oil into passive components such as overpriced capacitors and other fancy inductors.
@@FrankBennett-kb7xs exactly, the performance upgrade you get by going fully active is astounding, the only one I remember being able to do this, and still can is Linn, you would think that they were able to sell more amplifiers and active crossover would be incentive enough
Thanks
Big difference especially in higher frequencies...
Even on iPhone speakers it is audible difference
You have to be careful when substituting air core inductors for iron core inductors. Differences in DCR will affect the crossover roll-off points.
Yeah, I know. I even talked about in this video but that's beyond the scope of this video. This was a simple test to see if swapping out like for like components would make a difference in sound quality for the better.
Hi, I enjoyed this video. The difference between the two is night and day, the factory speaker sounds muffled in comparison. Would you be able to put a monetary value to the sound on the upgraded pair? i.e. Would they now sound like a $1500+ speaker? I am bout 4 years into my hifi hobby, I became intrigued by the thought of modifying speakers and once expressed this interest on a forum. Some vastly more experienced 'audiophiles' told me in no uncertain terms, that bits are bits and upgrading the crossover would be a waste of time.
I recently found a good deal on some Heco Celan Revolution 3's. I must say, they are the best speaker I have owned but after watching a youtube review and seeing inside them, I feel like they would be a relatively easy speaker to modify and improve. If you are interested, this is the review. Skip to 09:45 to get to the part where he opens up the speaker and decided to add some cabinet bracing.
ruclips.net/video/k6aTumyJo9I/видео.html
Keep the great content flowing!
Thank you! I love to tinker with speakers that's for sure, so if you like this kind of stuff, then you are in the right place. Below is a playlist to all of my speaker upgrade videos.
You know... I never thought about it that way. After the crossover upgrade I think my Studio 630s probably sound more speakers in the $800-$900 price range. I do prefer my 630 over the my KEF Q350s after the upgrades. Hopefully this give you an idea of what kind of performance I was able to achieve from them.
Speaker upgrade playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLg0Xq1LbiZBV3JdrXQtMPgv3Lc6YB6fdr
As for me, you made a mistake in the high-frequency path. Capacitor coil capacitor and not two capacitors one behind the other. There should be a 3rd row there, not a second one with series capacitors. That's not how it's done.
To my ears, more crisp and layered.
Night and Day Difference!
Yep upgrades sound better...and there not even burned in...
Have you tried no crossovers at all? I mean the receiver is going to crossover when watching a movie right?
NO.
If you guys really want to hear an even bigger night and day difference throw away the passive components and go active...
Maybe I'll do a video on active crossovers next?
There will always be an improvement when inferior parts are replaced with superior parts. But, you will be hard pressed to notice a significant difference. When replacing quality parts i.e.
Metalized polypropylene caps with film & foil. Or, air core inductors of sufficient guage with foil inductors. These upgrades really only prove to be reasonable when getting rid of known electrical inferior parts. Don't expect a quality aluminum film & foil cap to be noticeably inferior to a Teflon, Paper & Oil, Silver/Copper foil cap, etc. Of course, the higher the price for such components breeds confirmation bias. Who wants to admit to themselves that the $1.75 1uf Solen cap that was replaced by a $100.00 1uf Jantzen. Didn't make any difference in response!
For sure there comes a point of diminishing returns, but that's basically this hobby in a nutshell. I was recently at high end audio store that actually sells speaker cable with a black box for over $100k a pair. When I asked if they were made from precision metals the sales person said no, the "black box" is the secret sauce here. Sure, no thanks!
I hear there are profound differences in sound and tonal shift. The problem is they both sound pretty bad. Maybe the 630 is just a crummy speaker or the music is not very resolved, or maybe you’re using a $2 microphone….?
Which one it is?
I know parts make a big difference.
Now, try and active crossover/DSP instead. :)
Yeah! I have heard about active crossovers/DSPs and no doubt I'm sold. Maybe one day I will play around with them. Right now there is only so much time in a day.
@generationbehindhifi car audio is well ahead of the game there. Every little cheap Kenwood headunit has active crossovers... So do home theater Amps but not as customizable and often only meant to separate the bass, fronts and surrounds in the low end.
I would buy a car audio DSP, feed it 12V in some homemade way, buy a cheap measuring mic and go to town! Thats "only" about $600 - $1000. 😬
now in different price point
My question would be about accuracy match for value of replaced elements . Why you did not present values - how much "better ones" were in reality identical to "worse ones "? How much accuracy you assured? Only then I could have any confidence
Second it is unscienfific to make test of comparison and in introduction give full support to one of solutions due to presented in advance learned basics (ex time delay expectation counted in miliseconds without noticeable resistance in circiut of capacitor)
i will care for brand and technology of electronic elements when they will be included in rules of theoretical phisic to which sceintists build space crafts. . Example law says time delay is to be evalulated byexclusively resistance x capacity RxC . Resistance R for capacity is measured zero - how time delay may be not zero?
Induction is theoreticaly calculated by count of wires, their dimensions nad magnetic coefficient for environment. Laerned "basic" you claim depends on any "speed of reaction of rod" BTW are they also slowed in steel discs of hard drives writing down gigabites in seconds? ? Are mentioned basics for sure proven true?
PS. I proven to myself that many speaker producers cannot on line care enough for accuracy of values and it is normal to make improvements just by tunning values. Of course I expect that high priced elelents are selected to better match to what is requested by designer but it may be spared by just matching cheaper elements DIY.
I must say RUclips didn't do this experiment any. But I will say I have a pair of "Polk audio monitor 70 series 2 towers" and let me tell you . When I upgraded the crossover it was cleaner , clearer like glass. Big difference. Much much clearer enjoyable to any music you listen to. If you're a mechanically inclined I suggest to go ahead and a , b the sound signature of both. I guess my towers is around 15 to 20 years old now. When I did the upgrade that made them, sound like they came fresh out of the factory. But 10× better sounding.
A esos niveles de potencia, los inductores con núcleo difícilmente lleguen a su saturación y los capacitores electrolíticos por debajo de los 4 o 5 khz no generan aberraciones audibles ni medibles de ningún tipo. los de harman lo saben
Next time don’t tell us which one has the upgraded crossover. 🤔
A lot of room interference with your audio, a shame ,
Also a shame that you didn’t separate the speakers a bit more from each other to enhance separation and thus a more coherent sq from a one point source each time .
But good anyway , easy to ear a difference
😂Why not put air coil speakers in the cabinet!?😉
🤣🤣
The tweeter circuit on your crossover schematic makes no sense. Two different size caps in series.
The speaker has always been and will always be the weakest link. So any improvement will help.
JBL is now owned by some Korean company that its new product lines are different compared from its before. Another American legend company gone, period. 😢
You better go home and throws away everything that made in china and Korean since the made crappy stuff
What you state sounds true, but the fact is that the JBL management team and engineers are still there.
@@Chuck-- Right but we control the BUDGETS?! Genius.
To be honest both speakers sounded awful to me though one was a bit more recessed. The only thing I really learnt was not to buy a JBL Studio 630
It must be just me I didn’t like the upgraded one. Sounded dull and lifeless for the most part.
Try having a listen using the below link. In the video below I used high quality source material (SACD) for the demo and to me its much easier to tell the differences between the two speakers. Sadly I couldn't include this clip in this video without risk of being demonetized.
ruclips.net/video/yKJWvSotots/видео.html
@@generationbehindhifi
Wow ya I can hear a difference in that video link.
The upgraded one with vocals sounds weird. Vocals and guitar sounded hollow and canned. There seemed to be a whole in the sound with vocals and guitars.
At times the stock one did sound a little congested but I couldn’t get past the change in the vocals and guitars in the upgraded one.
Must be me, maybe I’m just so used to lesser quality it seems normal to me!!
@@Carl-bd1rf When one actually designs and tests and refines a crossover they can deal with all of the tone and etc differences and get it completely dialed in.
@@bayard1332
That’s the rumor I’m told, but my ears didn’t register that in this case. Like I said maybe it’s just me.
Why use this kind of music ???.................instead of real instruments and natural recorded voices ......or sounds of nature ....
I did not hear a difference, so I am left with 100 bucks in my pocket.
Everything matters in hi-fi and how do people not know this ?