Timemore Sculptur 064s with flat burrs, had to grind at least 3kg before it got consistent . some coffee shops / roasters sell "bad coffee" (roasted coffee not up to their standard) at a much cheaper price - this way you can support your local roaster, instead of buying supermarket coffee beans. very informative clear video! thanks
@ciruscoffee4290 Hi there, yes I've had the Philos for around three weeks now. I haven't got a review planned yet but please email me with anything you'd like to know about it tom@tomsgrinderlab.com but I will likely publish a review late October.
I bought the DF64 version 2 back in 2022. This version came with the Itamil 64mm flat burrs. At first, I could not get the darn grinder to be consistent, even after aligning. The burrs would not stay consistent until a few lbs of coffee later. Recently, I bought a set of SSP Lab Sweet V3 for my DF64V. The grinder + burrs combo stays extremely consistent right out of the box. I only had to adjust the dial ever so slightly finer every 5 or 6 shots to get it to stay consistent. This must means that SSP's machining and coating quality is much higher than Itamil. SSP still recommend 3-5kg of coffee to season the burrs, but out of the box, they are far more consistent than Itamil, at least. It is my theory that quality manufactured burrs require far less seasoning than others.
@ccoovvii I was comparing the Itamil burrs vs. the SSP LSV3. But from my experience, the DLC burrs seem to be machined well and are very consistent. I was expecting a radical inconsistency with the DLC burrs upon receiving it, but i was pleasantly surprised as it is as consistent as it gets for me. I've aligned the Itamil in DF64 and DLC in the DF64V, then again when I received the SSP LSV3. I only experienced inconsistencies with the Itamil burrs.
@@vuduong173 agree, the DF DLC burrs (there are other brands who do DLC too e.g. Keber and Gorilla Gear) produce consistent quality espresso. Personally I haven't had inconsistencies in the Italmill but then again I haven't used them daily but rather in one off comparisions. Thanks for your post. I'm learning every day thanks to people like you.
I agree that the SSP burrs are of the highest standard. Interesting to hear of the contrast in your experience between Italmill and SSP. I need to run some tests with Italmill but bear in mind that sometimes it's the combination between a burr and grinder that can make the difference.
Ton of great info packed in here. Especially the difference that coatings make. I got some new SSP Brew Burrs (MP_V1), and I've been struggling to know if they're still under-seasoned or if the alignment is off. I've ran a little less than 4 kilos through at this point, but I still find myself chasing the dial a bit, like you said. Alternatively, aligning these burrs is hard because they don't have finishing flats that the marker test can work with. There's just too little surface area to see a wipe. I've taken my grinder's stock burrs and shimmed those for the best alignment I can get, and then swap in the SSPs. I don't know if that's a viable way of alignment though... Any advice to tell the difference between seasoning and misalignment, Tom?
Ooh great question, are you using the SSP Brew MP burrs for filter or espresso and are they 64mm or 83? SSP MP burrs are not a set I would use for espresso; they are notoriously difficult to dial in to create a balanced flow rate but I do enjoy the filter/brew coffee from them. But to answer your question: misaligned burrs will give you an unbalanced espresso (sour or bitter notes or both) every time whereas unseasoned burrs, when you get the dial set right and therefore a balanced pour (not too fast, not too slow) will still be balanced in the cup AND will get better with more kilos through. Misaligned burrs never get better until they are aligned. For filter the lack of balance is not as extreme because the particle sizes are larger but the flavor will still be sub optimal. Hope that helps.
@@tomsgrinderlab That absolutely sheds light on the situation. Thank you! I'm using 64mm for pour over. The cups have just been pretty flat at coarse grinds or suddenly way too bitter at finer settings. I've also had some pretty inconsistent draw downs that don't match up with the adjustments I make. Like setting for a coarser grind, but getting the same or slightly longer draw down time. I have a hunch it may be a combo of under-seasoned and unaligned, but more in the alignment camp. I just need to hunt down a method to align these burrs now since marker tests don't seem to work. Thank you again for your input!
Is there a difference between seasoning the burrs as you suggested one time, vs using the burrs and chasing the dial over a period of time from every day use. At some point you will have used over 2kg of beans from simply using the grinder, so does that season them by default ?
100% it does. If you have a grinder that doesn't have you 'chasing the dial' then seasoning them day by day with 2 or 3 grinds will get you there just the same as putting 2kg through in one lot, just takes longer. And a grinder like the Niche Zero (still one of the all time great grinders) is a classic example of a grinder that makes seasoning with 2kg entirely optional.
Thanks again for an informative video Tom. I have noticed, and it could just be me, that if you put well seasoned burrs in a brand new grinder they tend to behave as if they have not been seasoned. Takes a while for them to "settle in". Has this been your experience or just me?
3kg should do the job but I'd guess 8kg to get them close to 100% (stick to 3kg!). I'm not personally a huge fan of the Cast (LS) burrs for espresso but hey, that's probably just my taste buds. Are you thinking of using them for espresso or filter or both?
Kitchen knives - even fruit knives that really only cut soft fruit and veggies need to be sharpened. I'm not at all surprised that burrs can get honed off over time by grinding beans. I also wonder if seasoning isn't in a small part also filling in any unevenness on the burr surfaces and getting everything evenly coated with oils. That ought to make the beans and grinds move more uniformly across the burrs during the process.
@JanMoren Good points thanks. Hadn't thought about "filling" but it may very well be that is a part of what happens. However it happens, there is no doubt that seasoning helps the burrs to perform at their best.
When you sharpen a knife you get whats called a "wire" edge which is just a very fine thin edge which needs to be knocked off to leave the actual uniform edge of the sharp blade, seasoning may be the thing that knocks the wire off and reveals the uniform edge giving the consistency maybe?
Sounds like that would fit. When I explained a similar theory I had to a scientest friend of mine he asked "well, where do those tiny bit go?" I'm thinking: "um, I guess I drink them?". But really they end up in the container I'm grinding in to I guess. But I think your explanation is as good as any. I just wish manufacturers would find a way to season the burrs. Like the old, old, old days when I was a teenager we'd buy jeans two sizes to big because we knew the demin would shrink on the first wash. Then Levi did it for us.
@@tomsgrinderlab If you look at Sprometheus he did a test on it and noted no difference but I think it was with a conical burr. Anecdotaly the Timemore 078s grinders seem to be the worst affected by needing lots of seasoning and they are a proprietary burr so maybe the Chinese manufacturer has a less sophisticated finishing process for the burrs leaving a rougher stronger "wire edge"? Just spitballing ideas.
Thanks for you post Adrian. You can do that. Think I explained why I don't though. With a grinder like the Niche Zero with the 63mm conical it's certainly an option.
@@tomsgrinderlab when I purchased my lagom p64 I was advised it wasn’t necessary. I figure that whatever the case it’s not much of a delay until you get outstanding grinds at no additional cost.
Why hasnt anyone posted extreme burr close ups. For instance take a new grinder. Take some very close pictures. Mark a few spots on the side of the burrs for later pics. After a few lbs of beans have been grinded, do another close up pic. What noone has ever mentioned and which at least to me makes more sense is- lots of grinder chambers are loaded with springs and or wave springs for tension. Maybe at first production and installation the aprings are under a certain load/stress. Over time the that load or stess changes correlating to what some ppl notice are difference in grind dial settings I personally dont buy in into the seasoning burr theory. Especially the part of grindimg wasting supermarket beans. Its just a waste. Funny how the coffee culture is about sustainability but so quick to waste beans too
Thanks for your post. Personally I don't need close up photos of burrs, I can tell from the consistency of grounds and from the in cup experience. You may not buy into burr seasoning but yep, it's a thing. I even reference the research and after 50 new grinders on my bench I can assure you that it's needed, at least on some grinders more than others. As for sustainability, coffee grounds go on the garden so no wasted. And the more I use the more people that the gainful employment of people who need the income is sustained. Another perspective.
@tomsgrinderlab it would be pretty cut and dry if photographs were taken. Real easy way to bring the burr myth to a quick conclusion. Whats your take on the grinders spring/tension load. A fresh grinder is unused and somewhat understressed. But after weeks or maybe months that machine is broken into its new rested state. Couldnt that be an explanation
References
medium.com/@markalshemmeri/seasoning-a-coffee-grinder-6b2d68101b41 Mark Al-Shemmeri
coffeeadastra.com/2019/05/27/seasoning-grinder-burrs-and-grind-quality-2/ Jonathon Gagnes
Thanks for bringing clarity on the subject.
200g for a small hand grinder, coated burr, add 50% , interesting, thanks for the video.
Timemore Sculptur 064s with flat burrs, had to grind at least 3kg before it got consistent . some coffee shops / roasters sell "bad coffee" (roasted coffee not up to their standard) at a much cheaper price - this way you can support your local roaster, instead of buying supermarket coffee beans.
very informative clear video! thanks
Helpful thanks. I have an 064S coming in October if the shipping Gods are smiling down in me.
Hi Tom, do you received the Mazzer Philos ? Any review soon? I very interesting about this grinder
@ciruscoffee4290 Hi there, yes I've had the Philos for around three weeks now. I haven't got a review planned yet but please email me with anything you'd like to know about it tom@tomsgrinderlab.com but I will likely publish a review late October.
I bought the DF64 version 2 back in 2022. This version came with the Itamil 64mm flat burrs. At first, I could not get the darn grinder to be consistent, even after aligning. The burrs would not stay consistent until a few lbs of coffee later. Recently, I bought a set of SSP Lab Sweet V3 for my DF64V. The grinder + burrs combo stays extremely consistent right out of the box. I only had to adjust the dial ever so slightly finer every 5 or 6 shots to get it to stay consistent. This must means that SSP's machining and coating quality is much higher than Itamil. SSP still recommend 3-5kg of coffee to season the burrs, but out of the box, they are far more consistent than Itamil, at least. It is my theory that quality manufactured burrs require far less seasoning than others.
Nice to hear! Are you comparing the LSv3 with DLC stock burrs?
@ccoovvii I was comparing the Itamil burrs vs. the SSP LSV3. But from my experience, the DLC burrs seem to be machined well and are very consistent. I was expecting a radical inconsistency with the DLC burrs upon receiving it, but i was pleasantly surprised as it is as consistent as it gets for me.
I've aligned the Itamil in DF64 and DLC in the DF64V, then again when I received the SSP LSV3. I only experienced inconsistencies with the Itamil burrs.
@@vuduong173 agree, the DF DLC burrs (there are other brands who do DLC too e.g. Keber and Gorilla Gear) produce consistent quality espresso. Personally I haven't had inconsistencies in the Italmill but then again I haven't used them daily but rather in one off comparisions. Thanks for your post. I'm learning every day thanks to people like you.
I agree that the SSP burrs are of the highest standard. Interesting to hear of the contrast in your experience between Italmill and SSP. I need to run some tests with Italmill but bear in mind that sometimes it's the combination between a burr and grinder that can make the difference.
I was sceptical about burr seasoning, but my DF64V appears to be far more consistent since I've shoved a couple of kilos through it.
Thanks for you post, it's helpful for viewers to hear from others too.
Ton of great info packed in here. Especially the difference that coatings make. I got some new SSP Brew Burrs (MP_V1), and I've been struggling to know if they're still under-seasoned or if the alignment is off. I've ran a little less than 4 kilos through at this point, but I still find myself chasing the dial a bit, like you said.
Alternatively, aligning these burrs is hard because they don't have finishing flats that the marker test can work with. There's just too little surface area to see a wipe. I've taken my grinder's stock burrs and shimmed those for the best alignment I can get, and then swap in the SSPs. I don't know if that's a viable way of alignment though...
Any advice to tell the difference between seasoning and misalignment, Tom?
Ooh great question, are you using the SSP Brew MP burrs for filter or espresso and are they 64mm or 83?
SSP MP burrs are not a set I would use for espresso; they are notoriously difficult to dial in to create a balanced flow rate but I do enjoy the filter/brew coffee from them.
But to answer your question: misaligned burrs will give you an unbalanced espresso (sour or bitter notes or both) every time whereas unseasoned burrs, when you get the dial set right and therefore a balanced pour (not too fast, not too slow) will still be balanced in the cup AND will get better with more kilos through. Misaligned burrs never get better until they are aligned.
For filter the lack of balance is not as extreme because the particle sizes are larger but the flavor will still be sub optimal.
Hope that helps.
@@tomsgrinderlab That absolutely sheds light on the situation. Thank you! I'm using 64mm for pour over. The cups have just been pretty flat at coarse grinds or suddenly way too bitter at finer settings.
I've also had some pretty inconsistent draw downs that don't match up with the adjustments I make. Like setting for a coarser grind, but getting the same or slightly longer draw down time.
I have a hunch it may be a combo of under-seasoned and unaligned, but more in the alignment camp. I just need to hunt down a method to align these burrs now since marker tests don't seem to work.
Thank you again for your input!
Is there a difference between seasoning the burrs as you suggested one time, vs using the burrs and chasing the dial over a period of time from every day use. At some point you will have used over 2kg of beans from simply using the grinder, so does that season them by default ?
100% it does. If you have a grinder that doesn't have you 'chasing the dial' then seasoning them day by day with 2 or 3 grinds will get you there just the same as putting 2kg through in one lot, just takes longer. And a grinder like the Niche Zero (still one of the all time great grinders) is a classic example of a grinder that makes seasoning with 2kg entirely optional.
Thanks again for an informative video Tom. I have noticed, and it could just be me, that if you put well seasoned burrs in a brand new grinder they tend to behave as if they have not been seasoned. Takes a while for them to "settle in". Has this been your experience or just me?
Oh that's very intresting. No, I hadn't noticed but I'll keep an eye on that.
Tom do you have experience with 64mm SSP LSv3/Cv3? Heard it needs a lot of seasoning. How many kg do you recommend?
3kg should do the job but I'd guess 8kg to get them close to 100% (stick to 3kg!). I'm not personally a huge fan of the Cast (LS) burrs for espresso but hey, that's probably just my taste buds. Are you thinking of using them for espresso or filter or both?
@@tomsgrinderlab just espresso
Kitchen knives - even fruit knives that really only cut soft fruit and veggies need to be sharpened. I'm not at all surprised that burrs can get honed off over time by grinding beans.
I also wonder if seasoning isn't in a small part also filling in any unevenness on the burr surfaces and getting everything evenly coated with oils. That ought to make the beans and grinds move more uniformly across the burrs during the process.
@JanMoren Good points thanks. Hadn't thought about "filling" but it may very well be that is a part of what happens. However it happens, there is no doubt that seasoning helps the burrs to perform at their best.
When you sharpen a knife you get whats called a "wire" edge which is just a very fine thin edge which needs to be knocked off to leave the actual uniform edge of the sharp blade, seasoning may be the thing that knocks the wire off and reveals the uniform edge giving the consistency maybe?
Sounds like that would fit. When I explained a similar theory I had to a scientest friend of mine he asked "well, where do those tiny bit go?" I'm thinking: "um, I guess I drink them?". But really they end up in the container I'm grinding in to I guess.
But I think your explanation is as good as any. I just wish manufacturers would find a way to season the burrs.
Like the old, old, old days when I was a teenager we'd buy jeans two sizes to big because we knew the demin would shrink on the first wash. Then Levi did it for us.
@@tomsgrinderlab If you look at Sprometheus he did a test on it and noted no difference but I think it was with a conical burr. Anecdotaly the Timemore 078s grinders seem to be the worst affected by needing lots of seasoning and they are a proprietary burr so maybe the Chinese manufacturer has a less sophisticated finishing process for the burrs leaving a rougher stronger "wire edge"? Just spitballing ideas.
Why not just wait until 2kg of your usual coffee has gone through? Why waste supermarket coffee? BTW that Coles $15/kg coffee is excellent.
Thanks for you post Adrian. You can do that. Think I explained why I don't though. With a grinder like the Niche Zero with the 63mm conical it's certainly an option.
@@tomsgrinderlab when I purchased my lagom p64 I was advised it wasn’t necessary. I figure that whatever the case it’s not much of a delay until you get outstanding grinds at no additional cost.
Why hasnt anyone posted extreme burr close ups. For instance take a new grinder. Take some very close pictures. Mark a few spots on the side of the burrs for later pics. After a few lbs of beans have been grinded, do another close up pic.
What noone has ever mentioned and which at least to me makes more sense is- lots of grinder chambers are loaded with springs and or wave springs for tension. Maybe at first production and installation the aprings are under a certain load/stress. Over time the that load or stess changes correlating to what some ppl notice are difference in grind dial settings
I personally dont buy in into the seasoning burr theory. Especially the part of grindimg wasting supermarket beans. Its just a waste.
Funny how the coffee culture is about sustainability but so quick to waste beans too
Thanks for your post. Personally I don't need close up photos of burrs, I can tell from the consistency of grounds and from the in cup experience.
You may not buy into burr seasoning but yep, it's a thing. I even reference the research and after 50 new grinders on my bench I can assure you that it's needed, at least on some grinders more than others.
As for sustainability, coffee grounds go on the garden so no wasted. And the more I use the more people that the gainful employment of people who need the income is sustained.
Another perspective.
@tomsgrinderlab it would be pretty cut and dry if photographs were taken. Real easy way to bring the burr myth to a quick conclusion.
Whats your take on the grinders spring/tension load.
A fresh grinder is unused and somewhat understressed. But after weeks or maybe months that machine is broken into its new rested state. Couldnt that be an explanation