The trading posts are a masterpiece of game design - and how you made that hermetic idea into a very accessible and entertaining video is a masterpiece of youtubing! Really cool - Looking forward for more TM content!!
Thanks a bunch Zoras! Can't wait for your next Ultimate guide. Those videos in particular really helped open me up to the competitive possibilities that this game has to offer.
Nah, thank you guys for putting so much passion into this event. The production quality is seriously off the charts. Hopefully I'll get the chance to throw my hat in the rink next time ;)
Thanks for sharing this on Reddit - would have never found it otherwise! I've gone ahead and shared it with some people in the community including the Fire Two Open organizer. Really great video and was awesome that you covered things on the more competitive side as well.
Damn, that means a lot coming from you. I have lots of respect for you as a player, as I've seen most of your Terra stuff on RUclips. Hopefully we get the chance to have a match some day
Great video! Really well done -- I thought it was brilliant how the video was organized around the dynamics of trading houses/posts. Looking forward to seeing more of your work. And I agree with you: I also highly recommend watching the Fire Two Tournaments to anyone who is interested in strategy board games of any kind. It is a great production, world-class play, but also a great way to learn the game. And when people are ready to up their game, Zoras' videos are a goldmine. Keep up the great work, Manic Pineapple! You got me subbed.
This isn't a rules explanation video, but it beautiful explains the heart and intent of the game. I would recommend people watch this before diving into the nitty-gritty rules stuff. Thanks for the video!
Listen: my corner starts are but part of my master strategy. Ya gotta psych out the opponents by intentionally playing poorly. (You do not. I will stop xD)
Before I watched the video I thought "out of all things, he chose the trading posts??? (Yes I call them trading posts) Why not the power mechanic? Or the neighbouring? Or faction diversity? Aren't temples much more important with their favour tiles?" But I have to say I see why you chose trading posts and you explained your point really clearly. If I have to convince a fellow gamer about Terra Mystica I will certainly bring TPs up in the future. What do you think about Project Gaia and Age of Innovation?
Glad you enjoyed the video. I'm actually playing both next week. Gaia is so different, but I really enjoy it. Far less agro than Terra imo. Ino boggles my mind. I seriously suck at it, which confuses me because I'm usually pretty great at Terra. I've only played each like 5 times though, so I'll see if they have the same staying power as terra for me.
I’m curious what you think of Scythe:) Terra Mystica was one of its big influences, as claimed by the designer himself. Scythe is also an asymmetrical (and imbalanced, lol -although with only 5 factions in the base game this is even less acceptable !) euro. It has less variability though, as most of it comes from the association of player mats and factions, but there is no mechanism like the scoring tiles in TM.
I really love Scythe. It's a great game, though it has certain balance issues that make it a little less fun to play competitively in my experience. I've only played half a dozen games though, so I'm not well versed enough in the meta to hold particularly strong opinions on its design. I have a ton of fun with the game regardless :)
Catan is more interactive than terra mystica ;) Maybe theres more board interaction in terra mystica (adjacency on the board), but in every other aspect it has less interaction. just look at top play: In catan there's future trade promised, block theats, help last players by faverable trading, taking vps away like longest road or largest army (in C&K there's even more) in terra mystica, players dont even talk/ try to convince others to do different things they planned, mostly theres just greetings at the start. Even in "4 player commentary" videos on youtube, the players dont interact like saying "if you give leach, i'll leave you such and such pass tile" or smth of that sort, they just explain their moves. Even in our gaming group, where we play every game interactive, for example, we regularely play 3 hour disney villainous games (if you know what that game is, you understand what i mean... description says 30 min). In terra mystica it just gets tiring after a while, because the core of the game is so much more complicated, it doesn't really allow for much interaction. Even in like "perfect interactive scenarios" on board game arena, when for me it's like 50/50 if i harm/help one player or another (and for me the result is similar), the players dont want to talk it out. I ask them, if they return the favour in the future with smth, but they just want me to go on with the move. Not at fault of the game, but it shows that the pleyer base of terra mystica may like predictability more than interaction. I like both games, terra mystica for it's complexity and diversity and catan for it's player interaction. But describing TM as more interactive than catan is just wrong advertising :)
While I totally respect your opinion, I think one point the point of impasse here is in this sentence: "because the core of the game is so much more complicated, it doesn't really allow for much interaction". If you've only played Terra a few times, aren't acquainted with the meta, or haven't studied up on it, then yeah, the game might seem overwhelming to the point where you aren't having as many interactions. Complexity doesn't necessarily equal less interaction though, at least if you're at the stage of understanding the complexities of what your opponents' decisions means for you. To put it bluntly, checkers and chess both theoretically have the same amount of player interaction between the two games. In chess though, if you're a new or young player, it's easy to just turn your brain off to your opponent's moves and do your own thing. This might make it feel like there's "less interaction" than checkers because the effects of your opponent's decisions aren't as immediately apparent. But this ins't due to a lack of interaction, but rather the player's lack of understanding of the implications of seemingly banal moves. Needless to say, there's a reason that even top Catan players would agree than at least 50% of the game's outcomes happens when the board is being set up--the game just doesn't have that same depth of interaction at a competitive level. On a casual level though: I totally agree with you. Catan has the benefit of you potentially getting resources on your opponent's turns, and at a casual level, the idea of spending resources to help another player in Catan and having massive negotiations is really cute tbh. However, the reason you don't see players negotiating leech with each other in live Terra games is because, but top play has become to heavily optimized that top players understand that you don't give Engineers leech in the opening. To be clear, that doesn't mean that they aren't interacting with the game state: it just means, and I'm not saying this to be patronizing, that they aren't arguing about the meta midway through a competitive set :p Thank you for your well-worded comment, and while I disagree with you, I still admire your passion for board games--that much we definitely have in common
Really interesting! You make a really great case for giving this game a try :) That being said, no sheep in Terra Mystica??? Disliked and unsubscribed.
I mean.....I guess I'm glad you like it? Maybe all this applies if you are a 'competitive' TM player, but for someone who has something else to do/play there are far better options now. Unbalanced factions, seemingly tacked on mancala system, and janky scoring system make it pretty meh TBH. I have tried it with groups that normally like these types of placement games and it has generally been met with a resounding 'that was fine...can we play x now?' Again if you like it, please continue to do so but trading houses are not some sort of savior for all the other problems the game has. As a note, if you have to complain that other players are playing the game 'wrong', the game may have some issues. Note 2: Catan is also a foundational game that was good at the time but massively outdone by its successors. Essentially all new games compare favorably to Catan....its an odd choice of comparison especially since it takes up so much of the video...
No worries; I respect your opinion. This video was largely made for those seeking to look at games from a competitive standpoint rather than looking for a relaxing, casual experience. Looking at your comment about people "playing the game wrong", it's clear this video probably wasn't for you, since that statement could be applied to quite literally all competitive games (ei: I think you and I can both agree that you can play chess wrong by making bad choices, but that doesn't make chess a bad game, right?). PS: regarding the "unbalanced classes", a fun thing that you can do even at casual levels is to use the auction system, which us used at competitive level Terra and is super easy to implement. Any Terra player would agree that the factions are clearly unbalanced (even after the very strong mini and landscapes expansions that help the game with balance), but auctions make it so that each player gets to choose a faction to put in an auction, and then everyone gets to bet points on it. This makes it so that you can choose a mediocre faction from the auction (eg: Auren) and still be very competitive, since you can just bet everything else down and have Auren start with way more points than everyone else. Choosing which class to bet down from the auction is a very important choice at even a casual level, and makes the game a lot more fun and balanced. Maybe give it a try on BGA with auction and the expansions in play and maybe it'll work out better for you. Either way, thanks for sharing your opinions, and I wish you a good day
The trading posts are a masterpiece of game design - and how you made that hermetic idea into a very accessible and entertaining video is a masterpiece of youtubing! Really cool - Looking forward for more TM content!!
Thanks a bunch Zoras! Can't wait for your next Ultimate guide. Those videos in particular really helped open me up to the competitive possibilities that this game has to offer.
What a fantastic explanation of why Terra Mystica is so amazing!
Thanks so much for the shout out! Hope to see you in the Season 3 qualifiers.
Nah, thank you guys for putting so much passion into this event. The production quality is seriously off the charts. Hopefully I'll get the chance to throw my hat in the rink next time ;)
Thanks for sharing this on Reddit - would have never found it otherwise! I've gone ahead and shared it with some people in the community including the Fire Two Open organizer. Really great video and was awesome that you covered things on the more competitive side as well.
Damn, that means a lot coming from you. I have lots of respect for you as a player, as I've seen most of your Terra stuff on RUclips. Hopefully we get the chance to have a match some day
ive found you out when i was searching youtube and i am not regretting that
Great video! Really well done -- I thought it was brilliant how the video was organized around the dynamics of trading houses/posts. Looking forward to seeing more of your work. And I agree with you: I also highly recommend watching the Fire Two Tournaments to anyone who is interested in strategy board games of any kind. It is a great production, world-class play, but also a great way to learn the game. And when people are ready to up their game, Zoras' videos are a goldmine. Keep up the great work, Manic Pineapple! You got me subbed.
Thanks for the kind words :) Glad you enjoyed the video!
This isn't a rules explanation video, but it beautiful explains the heart and intent of the game. I would recommend people watch this before diving into the nitty-gritty rules stuff. Thanks for the video!
Glad you enjoyed it :) I love geeking out over great game design, and Terra is a goldmine for good discourse surrounding the subject
Listen: my corner starts are but part of my master strategy. Ya gotta psych out the opponents by intentionally playing poorly.
(You do not. I will stop xD)
It was a joy recording that bit :)
@@themanicpineapple8772 I could hear the emotion in your voice! It got me good.
I felt something in the core of my being while he was yelling
Before I watched the video I thought "out of all things, he chose the trading posts??? (Yes I call them trading posts) Why not the power mechanic? Or the neighbouring? Or faction diversity? Aren't temples much more important with their favour tiles?" But I have to say I see why you chose trading posts and you explained your point really clearly. If I have to convince a fellow gamer about Terra Mystica I will certainly bring TPs up in the future.
What do you think about Project Gaia and Age of Innovation?
Glad you enjoyed the video.
I'm actually playing both next week. Gaia is so different, but I really enjoy it. Far less agro than Terra imo.
Ino boggles my mind. I seriously suck at it, which confuses me because I'm usually pretty great at Terra. I've only played each like 5 times though, so I'll see if they have the same staying power as terra for me.
I’m curious what you think of Scythe:) Terra Mystica was one of its big influences, as claimed by the designer himself. Scythe is also an asymmetrical (and imbalanced, lol -although with only 5 factions in the base game this is even less acceptable !) euro. It has less variability though, as most of it comes from the association of player mats and factions, but there is no mechanism like the scoring tiles in TM.
I really love Scythe. It's a great game, though it has certain balance issues that make it a little less fun to play competitively in my experience. I've only played half a dozen games though, so I'm not well versed enough in the meta to hold particularly strong opinions on its design. I have a ton of fun with the game regardless :)
Catan is more interactive than terra mystica ;)
Maybe theres more board interaction in terra mystica (adjacency on the board), but in every other aspect it has less interaction.
just look at top play:
In catan there's future trade promised, block theats, help last players by faverable trading, taking vps away like longest road or largest army (in C&K there's even more)
in terra mystica, players dont even talk/ try to convince others to do different things they planned, mostly theres just greetings at the start. Even in "4 player commentary" videos on youtube, the players dont interact like saying "if you give leach, i'll leave you such and such pass tile" or smth of that sort, they just explain their moves.
Even in our gaming group, where we play every game interactive, for example, we regularely play 3 hour disney villainous games (if you know what that game is, you understand what i mean... description says 30 min). In terra mystica it just gets tiring after a while, because the core of the game is so much more complicated, it doesn't really allow for much interaction. Even in like "perfect interactive scenarios" on board game arena, when for me it's like 50/50 if i harm/help one player or another (and for me the result is similar), the players dont want to talk it out. I ask them, if they return the favour in the future with smth, but they just want me to go on with the move. Not at fault of the game, but it shows that the pleyer base of terra mystica may like predictability more than interaction.
I like both games, terra mystica for it's complexity and diversity and catan for it's player interaction. But describing TM as more interactive than catan is just wrong advertising :)
While I totally respect your opinion, I think one point the point of impasse here is in this sentence: "because the core of the game is so much more complicated, it doesn't really allow for much interaction".
If you've only played Terra a few times, aren't acquainted with the meta, or haven't studied up on it, then yeah, the game might seem overwhelming to the point where you aren't having as many interactions. Complexity doesn't necessarily equal less interaction though, at least if you're at the stage of understanding the complexities of what your opponents' decisions means for you.
To put it bluntly, checkers and chess both theoretically have the same amount of player interaction between the two games. In chess though, if you're a new or young player, it's easy to just turn your brain off to your opponent's moves and do your own thing. This might make it feel like there's "less interaction" than checkers because the effects of your opponent's decisions aren't as immediately apparent. But this ins't due to a lack of interaction, but rather the player's lack of understanding of the implications of seemingly banal moves. Needless to say, there's a reason that even top Catan players would agree than at least 50% of the game's outcomes happens when the board is being set up--the game just doesn't have that same depth of interaction at a competitive level.
On a casual level though: I totally agree with you. Catan has the benefit of you potentially getting resources on your opponent's turns, and at a casual level, the idea of spending resources to help another player in Catan and having massive negotiations is really cute tbh. However, the reason you don't see players negotiating leech with each other in live Terra games is because, but top play has become to heavily optimized that top players understand that you don't give Engineers leech in the opening. To be clear, that doesn't mean that they aren't interacting with the game state: it just means, and I'm not saying this to be patronizing, that they aren't arguing about the meta midway through a competitive set :p
Thank you for your well-worded comment, and while I disagree with you, I still admire your passion for board games--that much we definitely have in common
Really interesting! You make a really great case for giving this game a try :)
That being said, no sheep in Terra Mystica??? Disliked and unsubscribed.
Well... I unsubscribed from you first!
I mean.....I guess I'm glad you like it?
Maybe all this applies if you are a 'competitive' TM player, but for someone who has something else to do/play there are far better options now.
Unbalanced factions, seemingly tacked on mancala system, and janky scoring system make it pretty meh TBH. I have tried it with groups that normally like these types of placement games and it has generally been met with a resounding 'that was fine...can we play x now?'
Again if you like it, please continue to do so but trading houses are not some sort of savior for all the other problems the game has.
As a note, if you have to complain that other players are playing the game 'wrong', the game may have some issues.
Note 2: Catan is also a foundational game that was good at the time but massively outdone by its successors. Essentially all new games compare favorably to Catan....its an odd choice of comparison especially since it takes up so much of the video...
No worries; I respect your opinion. This video was largely made for those seeking to look at games from a competitive standpoint rather than looking for a relaxing, casual experience. Looking at your comment about people "playing the game wrong", it's clear this video probably wasn't for you, since that statement could be applied to quite literally all competitive games (ei: I think you and I can both agree that you can play chess wrong by making bad choices, but that doesn't make chess a bad game, right?).
PS: regarding the "unbalanced classes", a fun thing that you can do even at casual levels is to use the auction system, which us used at competitive level Terra and is super easy to implement. Any Terra player would agree that the factions are clearly unbalanced (even after the very strong mini and landscapes expansions that help the game with balance), but auctions make it so that each player gets to choose a faction to put in an auction, and then everyone gets to bet points on it. This makes it so that you can choose a mediocre faction from the auction (eg: Auren) and still be very competitive, since you can just bet everything else down and have Auren start with way more points than everyone else. Choosing which class to bet down from the auction is a very important choice at even a casual level, and makes the game a lot more fun and balanced. Maybe give it a try on BGA with auction and the expansions in play and maybe it'll work out better for you.
Either way, thanks for sharing your opinions, and I wish you a good day
I always use Catan to introduce people to Terra Mystica. I just describe it as Catan cranked up to level 10.