In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." (John 8:17, 18 NIV)
I absolutely love John 8:17-18 because the surest way to quickly shut down any oneness believer or teacher. It leads us straight to the context of what I John 5:7 is truly about. What I John 5:7 is actually saying is that there are 3 WITNESSES in Heaven. 3 that Bare Record!! If there are 3, then they must be separate persons. Christ calls His Father a witness and the Holy Ghost is also a witness! So, the Oneness believers are simply liars, deceived by Satan to say that God does not have a Son. They say the Father put on flesh and, somehow, became His own Son. And the I John 5:10 says that if you don't believe The Father's record, or witness of His own Son, then you have made God a liar! Christians believe in One God and that ONE God is the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ! Hallelujah!! 🙌🏾
I grew up in the Oneness cult. Shortly into Perkins' introductory remarks, he made a familiar yet repulsive move, namely *YELLING* at his audience. Apparently, at least in the mind of many oneness speakers, this tactic sets the (false) professor up as authoritative, intending to invoke an emotional response. When your argument lacks reason, just yell. Yeah, that's the ticket🙄. I always hated that. Perkins soundly lost this debate in the view of any reasonable person, from his misrepresentation of White's (i.e., the Christian) position to straw man argumentation. I don't expect Perkins to admit this, nor any of those who are victim to Oneness theology, but the fact remains. Great job Mr. White with systematically dismantling this heretical viewpoint.
Grew up with all Oneness Pentecostal uncles as preachers. So so thankful to the Lord for pulling me out of that heresy by the Grace of God. The fruit of the spirit is completely absent there. All emotional based spiritual superiority.
@@Post-Trib The word itself is just that, a word given for the divine being (i.e., God) as he described in the Bible. The doctrine comes straight from the pages of the Bible, not man. I recommend "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White. It will help you understand the way the doctrine was dealt with throughout the ages.
@dabish2888 Thanks, but I don't read Bernard or White. The trinity isn't forgotten at all because Steven Gill and Nathaniel Urshan have excellent videos about the origin of the Trinity doctrine. In God's own personal doctrine of himself, he's always stated that he is an absolute numerical one, and he's alone, unique, and without equal. The trinity doctrine contradicts this.
In order for us to have the fullness of God in our lives. We must Repent toward God the Father, Believe in the Son and Receive the Holy Spirit. This is God 3 in one. We must honor all three persons of the one God.
Erline Hooten it’s essential to honor (worship) the two of them - Father and the Son. John 17:3 - BUT Also to acknowledge the three of them - Father, Son, and Spirit - to following the teachings of Jesus Christ John 16:13, Acts 1:8, 19:3-6.
@@daraki1 Polytheism is Biblical From Everlasting, From The Beginning - two are each ‘from everlasting’ Psalm 90:2 (God, the God John 1:1b); Micah 5:2 (Messiah(Jesus), the Word). the Holy Spirit of God is the spirit of man within the Father’s God material Spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:9-11, John 8:17-18.
Around the 2:07:50 mark when James talks about John quoting Isaiah 6 John said Isaiah saw Jesus, Isaiah said he saw Yahweh. How can this be without the further revelation of the Trinity in the NT? Debate over. Good work, James.
I am amazed at the inability of Roger to answer simple logical grammatical questions. it is now clear to me that the oneness position is irrational and illogical and uses very poor argumentation that unfortunately leads many astray that are not as well informed.
Even Augustine said the terms “father”and “son” are relative.. To say there are three persons is blasphemous.. we know that there is only one God, one Savior… let’s not create definitions that are confusing. Christ was God manifest in the flesh…God incarnate. Fully God AND fully man. We have our salvation because Christ, our representative as man without sin was God in full and man… not man with a portion of God or God with a portion of man. We, having Christ in us, his Holy Spirit have a portion of God in us , we are NOT God incarnate. We seem to get confused with Jesus’ dual nature. But at the end of the day God is one person, one sentient being who intercepted our world and died for us in the flesh and was resurrected from the dead. He dwelt with us AS ONE OF US but was God who loved us to die for us. He’s our wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father and Prince of Peace!
After watching the debate, it is quite clear that Mr. Perkins 1) does not even understand the nature of the debate and 2) does not have the ability to understand Dr. White's questioning. He gives the strong impression that he showed up to the wrong debate.
+chriscox1121 Ummm, then apparently you agree with White's open confession to worshiping a "God" who exists as "3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"? LOL - Perhaps it is *you* who needs to go back do more study.
@@rogerperkins89597 years late to the party. You need to study John 1, Colossians 1:15-23, Philippians 2:5-12, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1, Revelation 1, Genesis 1, Genesis 11, Genesis 19, Joshua 5, Zechariah 3, Isaiah 46, Matthew 3, Matthew 28, etc. The Trinity is blatantly apparent throughout the Bible. To make a mockery of the Holy and Just God is foolish. Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Spirit is God. We try to comprehend using our finite minds and have struggles, but the revelation and testimony scripture gives us irrefutable.
35:23 Perkins: “This explains why we never see Father and Son distinction in the OT..” How does Mr. Perkins explain why the word for God in Hebrew (Elohim) is in plural word form? How does he explain Genesis 1:1 that says “Let us create…” is in plural form? And that David said in the scriptures - “The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”” in Psalm 110:1
Ummm, not exactly, you should do some background research into this debate (he was a total jerk toward Perkins prior to this debate on his podcast). Perkins simply returned the favor in the debate & was not bullied by White.
Hi there. While I respect a person’s composure while expressing oneself, that is not a factor in determining the content of what is expressed, to be truth. A very nervous person may have the truth to tell, with a shake in his voice 😊
Over the years of having contact with Oneness churches, preachers, and teachers, I've noticed that Trinitarians speak with more love and less frustration in their voices when they have debates. Even just interactions with saints or even sinners.
If that's been your experience, I am sorry it has been that way. My experience has been the opposite. Trinitarians are generally very loving until they are confronted with the very real logical difficulties of the doctrine of the Trinity (DT). When they realize that there are logical contradictions in their profession, I've seen them get frustrated, angry, defensive and verbally abusive. Normally, people get defensive when they lack the argumentative tools to properly counter a competing claim. They also get defensive when they're more interested in defending their tradition than they are in pursuing truth. And that goes for all sides of the debate. The old observation rings true here: In a controversy, the instant you feel anger, you have ceased striving for the truth and have begun to strive for yourself. A trinitarian drove by our church and contacted me about the doctrine of Oneness. He couldn't believe that anybody could reject such an obviously clear biblical doctrine as the Trinity. I assured him that I was once a trinitarian and that I was thoroughly familiar with the prooftexts and arguments for the DT, and that if he would just grant me five minutes, without interruption, to explain the Oneness doctrine, he could then rebut my claims and ask any question he'd like. I didn't get but two sentences out of my mouth before he broke his word and repeatedly interrupted me. It got so bad, I had to break off the dialog. I told him that when he got around to keeping his word and give me five minutes of uninterrupted time, I would be more than happy to continue the dialog. That was several years ago. I'm still waiting.
Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR IMAGE-GOD was speaking to angels ? what a nonsense -like if the angels have CREATIVE POWER-can u imagine GOD needing the help of angels to create man ? what a blasphemy .
Hmmm, we must have overlooked the terms God the Father, "God the Son," & "God the Holy Spirit" - or "Trinity" - in Gen. 1.26....But hey, we're fair peeps, maybe you can point us to those terms since it seems so clear:__________? Hear that music in the background?
Roger Perkins-Let us make man in our image- no where in chapter 1 it brings angels into the picture-how u arrived that GOD was speaking to angels ? I guess you chose to believe HE was speaking to angels-to admit HE was talking to JESUS or the holy spirit would not be good for you-LOL
karlos6628 Ummm, yes, I agree with Perkins here...as well as the Jewish ppl.! YHVH was indeed speaking to angels....Deny it until doomsday it will not make it any less true. But, since you're so certain could you please provide us where the actual biblical text states that YHVH was talking to "Himself" or the "Trinity":_____________? Hear that music still playing? LOL.
Roger Perkins-JEHOVAH speaking to HIMSELF-since you claim that GOD was in JESUS you would have to prove that-not me You cant show where in Genesis chapter 1 indeed GOD is speaking to angels-you are the one who cant prove that-not me
karlos6628 In other words you cannot prove that YHVH was speaking to Himself because the actual biblical text does NOT say that...right? LOL...Thank you (BTW - yes, I *can* prove that He was informing angels about the incarnation...see Rom. 5.14).
Dante Jager White has more speaking experience than Perkins. It's also obvious that White has an false aura of superiority about him, which I think does more harm than good.
in fairness, I've White speak quite ferverently. I don't think Perkins manner of speaking is a valid way of discerning his intent. He's oneness Pentacostal, it's kinda conditioned in them. yes, I'm trinitarian.
Dante Jager Perkins is used to yelling with energy like that because that’s how Pentecostal preachers are brought up. It comes natural to him when he’s in that position.
@@jameschasemaddox3037 why is it they neither seem to understand: The Father is God =Spirit =man having his own God’s spirit body with his own spirit of God within himself 1st Corinthians 2:11: John 8:17-18 - the Holy Spirit of God. The Son Was God called the Word John 1:1 Having his own God’s spirit body (with his own spirit of God within himself, as the Father HAS) The Word (God) was made flesh, A created, not God (an object of worship), man named Jesus having his human dust flesh with blood, and bones Luke 24:39, and 1st Corinthians 15:50,53. and his own spirit of man within himself Galatians 4:6 spirit of God’s Son who later became known as the spirit of Christ Romans 8:9/spirit of Jesus Christ Philippians 1:19 AND was given the Spirit, the Father’s spirit of God within himself, John 3:34. After his death and resurrection and ascension to heaven Jesus Christ was Given an incorruptible and immortal body placed upon his mortal dust flesh and bones Luke 24:39 without blood 1st Corinthians 15:50 body ‘Begotten (born) of God’ Acts 13:33 Anointed as God by the Father Hebrews 1:8-9 Only God of man John 5:22 Only, in all other areas the Father is the God of Jesus Christ Revelation 3:12, and Matthew 24:36.
Also " In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God. The word became flesh and walk among men". The word is Jesus. Another verse is before Abraham was, I am. God the father said I am what I am. Jesus also said I am. Another verse is when doubting Thomas said to Jesus " My Lord and my God", and Jesus did not rebuke him. The Trinity is compared to a person with body, mind, and soul. You are a person and yet within you, you have a body, mind, and soul. Your body is not your mind. Your mind is not your body. Your body is not your soul. Your soul is not your body. God is represented in this same manner. There is one God. Within one God, there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Son is not the Spirit, the spirit is not the Father. God creates the heavens and the earth and everything else in the beginning. If he can do all this, he certainly could manifest himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and be able to communicate among himself from eternity. God is so complex that not all humans could not comprehend his deity.
This verse does not refer to a Trinity, and that was not the understanding of this verse until Trinitarians came along and basically read that into the text.
@@ManlyServant I don’t know about that the three different minds was Problematic and I don’t believe is traditional theology. But what do I know I was just trying to keep up.
@@veiltricks2947 I agree. James White speaks quickly. Three minds is problematic. I believe in three, even four, men each having their own individual mind. John 5:21 the Father decides whom he will raise; the Son decides whom he will raise; 1st Corinthians 2:9-11 the Father sends his Spirit to search out the things the Father has prepared for them that love him and then the Spirit knows those things of the Father. (Had the Spirit been God he wouldn’t have had to search to know the things God the Father had prepared.) The spirit of Jesus Christ was learning the things of Jesus 1st Corinthians 2:11(1) before the Father (God) gave Jesus the Spirit (Jesus wouldn’t have been given what he had had.).
Indeed, the moderator is an atheist who was a parliamentarian with the Australian legislature, which demonstrates that he had no dog in the hunt. After the debate, he told Elder Perkins that he considered him the clear winner.
Perkins should've asked for clarification more often. He didn't seem to get the questions. He got too emotional, angry, and prideful to focus. He takes things way too personal for a debate. He needs to calm down, slow down, and listen carefully. Instead of trying to win.
Colossians says in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. It seems to me that the Trinitarian idea says the opposite: Christ dwells in bodily form in all the fullness of the Deity.. Does it not? the direct opposite. Both men/ philosophies make great presentations/ arguments, but I still struggle with this whole issue
Oneness ministers seem to always reject the teaching of the New Testament, to prove their point of one God. They dont seem to even understand the Old Testament that point to scriptures like Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in our image and likeness. Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord sit on my right hand until I make thy enemy your foot stool. Daniel 7: When the Ancient of days and verse 13 one like the son of man was given a everlasting kingdom. it many others even in the Old Testament when scripture said Genesis 11 Tower of Babel , Let us go down and give different languages.many other things could be stated
+Robert Minnick You seriously have not studied this subject!!! None of those verses are triune. To claim plurality without a quantity from scriptures invalidates your argument. Those verses you stated, you are taught lies and distortions to alter the word of God. The triune god is the catholic god. They took it from the pagan pantheons. As they took all their traditions, rituals, and holidays as well. Modern Christendom is a lie. Jesus was a Jew who taught Judaism. Christianity, true Christianity is a sect of Judaism.
@Robert Minnick, {{That your view on it believe what you must.And i will also believe what i must God is the judge who is right and who is wrong.}}=>your post You can believe what you want to believe, but the truth remains! Trinity is the doctrine of the devil founded by the RCC forefathers and spread out by the RCC... There is not even one verse in the bible that teaches Trinity! The only thing you have is: it implies, it implies... You just saw the word 'US' in Genesis 1:26 and you already conclude that the verse teaches Trinity, How do you define Trinity? One God with 3 persons, co equal, co eternal, co existent, They are 'God the Father', 'God the Son', and 'God the Holy Spirit'... Did Genesis 1:26 say anything about 3 persons of God? Did it say anything about co equality? Did it say anything about 'God the Son', and 'God the Holy Spirit' ? If NOT, How can it teach Trinity???
There more scriptures the Word Trinity is not in the bible. I see all three at work in Genesis yes let us make man. In the New Testament where Jesus Christ is baptize the Holy Spirit come upon him and the Father speak from heaven. Another place is Jesus Christ said before Abraham I am. He said Abraham rejoice to see his day and saw it. The Lord appeared to Abraham with two Angels before he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Psalm 110chapter 1st verse The Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand until i make thou enemy thou footstool.
John 14th chapter philip ask Jesus show us the Father and it sufficeth us. Jesus said have I been so long time with you.and yet hast thou not known me Philip? Jesus said he that hath seen me hath seen the Father: and how sayest thou then show us the Father?
@@bobpolo2964 I do think that is what the Bible indicates, but I'm open to contrary evidence. I do see in Colossians 1:15 says He is the firstborn of all creation as does Revelation 3:!4 when Jesus tells John that He is the beginning of God's creation. We'll need to contend with those verses if Jesus is eternal in the past, but I'm up for it if we can find reconciliation elsewhere in the Bible.
@@swentworth The Greek term for 'firstborn" is πρωτότοκος (Prototokos). It means preeminent or first priority. It's not to be taken literal. David is called the firstborn in Psalm 89:27, but we know he was the last born of Jesse (1Samuel 16:1-13). Ephraim is also called the firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9, but we know he was Joseph's second born after Manasseh (Genesis 41:50-52). Revelation 3:14 is also referring to Christ's preminence over His creation. Look at Revelation 1:8 & 1:18 & 22:13. There's much more evidence for the eternality of Jesus. Chew on this first, friend. See what you think. Take care
@@bobpolo2964 Colossians 1:15 can be translated as "preeminent" if "ktiseos" is a genitive of subordination. If it is a partitive genitive, then the proper translation would be "firstborn, who is a part of creation." Either way, the verse does not "mean preeminent" but CAN mean preeminent (and only if it is a genitive of subordination, which is in question) In Revelation 3:14 "prototokos" is not used at all, but Jesus is called the "beginning of the creation of God." This verse must be reconciled. Revelation 1:8, 1:18 and 22:13 are each calling Jesus the "Alpha and Omega" or "the first and the last." These are titles that God has designated for Himself and which are applied to Jesus. Jesus is also referred to as "YHWH" and "God" and "Father of eternity." Jesus receiving titles reserved for God could mean Jesus is 1 of 2 things, as to His ontological nature, one implies eternality in the past, "God"; and the other implies Him being created, "Image." Also, keep in mind that if you believe Jesus to be the one referred to as "Wisdom" in Proverbs chapter 8, then we would also need to contend with His being created, as Wisdom says of itself/Himself "ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth..." (Proverbs 8:23-24). There is much debate over the term "monogenes" used mostly in John, but also elsewhere, in reference to Jesus. I wouldn't necessarily say it mean "only begotten" or "only created" but it could. Let's not allow our theology to dictate what the Bible says and doesn't say. We are to submit and exegete theology, not the other way around.
@@WashedMickey The problem is in the belief system, anyone can believe what they want, this does not in any way prove that the thing that they believe exists. "inspired word of God" This for example is a claim, not the proof. Saying it does not make it true.
Please explain: St John 6:33 For the bread of God is He which cometh DOWN FROM HEAVEN, and giveth life unto the world. read to verse 38 reads "..For I came DOWN FROM heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. My question query is: explain what Jesus meant when he sent CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN.
+Follower of Truth Heaven was the source, just as it was of the "bread" that descended "from Heaven." This is the context & meaning. Besides, omnipresence cannot "come down" from anywhere - it's already where it would be descending. And, you never answered our questions in another thread. But, this is precisely how virtually *ALL* Trinitarians operate: Ask incessant questions all the while ignoring both the direct answers & questions presented to them. *Sigh....*
+Follower of Truth You have been asked multiple questions here and in other threads over and over and have not given one answer all the while continuing asking and asking. At what point will this be a two way conversation?
+James Morris Well observed. I am not a scholar, Dr, or any profession in the ministry. I am merely a born-again christian Holy Spirit filled (over many years) who has recently become interested in the two different beliefs - simple as that - thanks for asking.
My wife and I have been talking about Christ on the cross and his reference of Psalm 22 for 15 years. Dr White final gave us the final piece for my wife to understand an argument I have been making regarding the Father looking Christ full in his face through the entirety of the process, never turning away from the Son instead granting forgiveness for the sins of the world through his grace. So not forsaking, fully embracing. Thanks for sharing this debate, and thanks for your response, Dr White.
Neither Mr Perkins nor most youtube viewers can understand Koine Greek. Perkins needs to learn the Biblical languages to have this type of discussion. @@thetrinitydilemma9300
Perkins sounds so confused. On the one hand, he says Jesus pre-existing was just a thought in the mind of God, On the other hand, he says he wasn't existing yet. Sometimes he says Jesus was the Father in heaven, Yet other times, he says Jesus was a thought in heaven. UPC Christology is so confusing! Can someone clarify this part (what Oneness believe) for me?
I think we can all agree that the man Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation. What oneness people teach is that the man Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the divine person of the Father. But there is a distinction between the Father and Jesus, because Jesus was a man, and God the Father himself is not a man. But, the man Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the Father's person. In Hebrews 1, we read about the "character" or "imprint" of the Father. This has been interpreted historically as the imprint of the infinite God on His Creation, the "Word" of the God who transcends Creation, at work in Creation. He spake and it was so. The word and wisdom of God. 1 John 1 refers to the word as eternal life, which was with the Father or in His possession, and then was manifested. The man Christ Jesus is the incarnation or embodiment of that. In Colossians then, he's described as God's "image." The image of God, the Father.
Proverbs 30:4 "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fist? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
He didn’t have a Son til Jesus was born…If he had a Son before that show Scripture that the Father had a Heavenly Child. We can’t change the definition of Son
This verse is not referring to God the Father and God the Son. It's asking "who hath ascended...what is his name, and what is his son's name?" In other words, name the person who has done this, and name his son as well. Well you can't, because no one has. Only God has done these things.
@@samuelrosenbalm There was a particular way of speaking in the Jewish culture. This verse is an example of that. Don’t just name the person, also name his son. We can’t read things into the text that aren’t there; that’s what’s weak Sam.
I am great full that I have received the revelation of who God really is as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and glad that I've been Baptized in the name of Jesus...
Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6 Acts 4:12 The blood of the lamb which is Jesus is applied. There is no remission for the tiles of my father your father my son your son. You say the name. You're in. It's real simple. If you want to be stubborn and hard headed. You had your chance. Does your wife have your name. I commend you a lot of people never understand. As much as you do. The early church fathers. You know good and well Peter babtized people in the name of Jesus. Think about it what does Jesus mean. Think about it Matthew was standing right there. Come on out Jesus you don't have to hide bond titles anymore.
@William Smith show me in scripture where in the name of Jesus is a formula. You simply miss applied in the name of Jesus. They say it because it’s a command from our Risen Savior.
@Norwalquero, The debate is about the truth written in the bible, about Triune God or One God, It is not about who is a nicer gentleman between the two... Jesus was also rude to the hypocrites unbelievers, He told the Pharisees, you are of your father, the devil...
+52RGD I am well aware of the subject of the debate. However, the scriptures exhort believers to speak the truth in love and to give a defense with gentleness and reverence. You may disagree with James White (I happen to agree with him wholeheartedly). But he is neither a 'hypocrite', 'unbeliever' nor 'Pharisee', so your comparison to Jesus and the Pharisees does not apply. I reiterate my previous observation that Perkins was extremely rude to his debate partner. If he is unable to carry on a formal debate without being rude and disrespectful, then he should leave the debate to others who can.
+Norwalquero, {{+52RGD I am well aware of the subject of the debate. However, the scriptures exhort believers to speak the truth in love and to give a defense with gentleness and reverence.}}=>your post Speaking the truth in love refers to the innocent people not to those who spread the lie of Trinity, But to those who oppose the truth Paul said to Timothy: ''Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with patience and doctrine.'' 1st, it doesn't concern you if according to your observation Mr. Perkins doesn't talk with love, The main thing for you to do is help Mr. White to prove that Trinity is a biblical doctrine... 2nd, I told you already that Jesus is rude to the unbelievers like Mr. White, He told them, you are of your father, the devil... Any one who teaches Trinity and debate trying to prove that Trinity is biblical is a fool and HYPOCRITE IN DISGUISE! Actually Mr. White is not only hypocrite but he also DEFY God to the face, GOD SAID: I am your Only God, There is no other gods before me, besides me, neither after me, I created all things ALONE and by MYSELF, Mr. White answered: NO, you are not alone, there are three of you, and the two others helped you in creation and redemption of mankind, I will spread this lie in the whole world as my father did... There is no word nor concept of Trinity in the bible! There is not even One Verse in the bible that teaches Trinity! The following can never be found in the bible in words or concept: There is no Trinity in the bible, There is no Triune God or Unified God in the bible, There is no 3 persons of God in the bible, There is no 'God the Son' in the bible, There is eternal Son in the bible, There is no co equal, co eternal, nor co existent in the bible, There is no'God the Holy Spirit in the bible, So, how come that Trinitarians always use these terminologies??? These only proves that Trinity is NOT, NOT, NOT a doctrine of the bible! Trinity is a doctrine of the devil founded by the forefathers of the RCC, and spread throughout the world by the anti Christ RCC. It was brought to the protestant camp by Martin Luther who himself was a former RCC priest...
OK I get it now. Any of us who are Trinitarian (and not Unitarian) in our understanding of the Godhead are devils and hypocrites who deserve to be treated with contempt and scorn. I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. :)
@Norwalquero, 1st of all, I am not a Unitarian, I am not also Oneness like Mr. Perkins, and I don't claim to know all the truths of the bible, 2nd, I don't condemned all who believe in the Trinity because I myself believed in Trinity for 35 years, 3rd, I only attack severely those who spread Trinity, and debate in public trying to prove that Trinity is the truth, Unless you spread the doctrine of Trinity and debate in public that Trinity is the truth , then you are NOT one of them ... May God bless you and open your mind to see the truth...
Why does Perkins keep talking about singular pronouns? In the OT you see sometimes the Spirit, sometimes the Son, sometimes the Father; sometimes the Son and the Father; sometimes the Spirit and the Son; sometimes the Spirit and the Father; and God as a whole without discussion of God's 3 Persons. Can't the OT have this liberty? David said the Lord is my lord's lord speaking of the Father and the Son.
Yes, the Catholics priests did add or change some passages in the Bible to fit in their belief about the doctrine of the Trinity. Before the 4th century, we were taught to water baptize in My Name in Matthew 28:19. In Matthew 28:19, in earlier manuscripts, Jesus said go into all the nations and baptize them in My Name. But the Catholic priests changed it to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit to fit in with their belief and their view and concept of the doctrine of the Trinity. So from the King James Bible on to our modern Bible translations, we got this teaching and saying of Jesus to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic priests changed and added some of their passages to the Bible. They were so corrupted that we have debate among so many different Christian denominations to this day that we are divided and are lost as to what is the truth. In Acts 2:38, the Apostle Peter taught the truth. He said " Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ" only. The Bible also clearly taught as that there is only one name under heaven whereby we can be saved. That name is Jesus Christ and not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like the Catholics priests taught. Another passage that the Catholic priests made changes is in the passage where it said " There are three that bear witness in heaven, the water and the blood, and the spirit. These three are in agreements". It did not say that these three are one. But the Catholic priests made changes in the King James Bible in this passage saying " There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. These three are one. They completely changed this passage from the earlier manuscripts to fit in with their theology of the doctrine of the Trinity. So we don't even know what other passages in our modern day Bibles did the Catholics priests add or made changes to. So we don't even know for sure if the Trinity concept of our One true God is correct or not because of the corruptions made by the early Catholic priests.
I can't believe Roger Perkins could not make good use of his 5 mins rebut - still not even touching on explaining the scriptures James expected him to fully explain. He tends to stick to the OT. The reason why he dances around the issue is because he cannot explain it without accepting the Trinity.
I heard James white say that the revelation of the doctrine of the trinity took place between the two testaments. My question is this: before the incarnation did the Jews recognize God as a trinity? Obviously not. Didn't the Jews know who they worshipped or did they worship God ignorantly?
Oneness lost. he said "fullness of God" dwells in Christ... in the Greek means "full measure of God." so he lost... that proves Greek doesn't mean same person, only CO-ETERNAL CO-UNION CO-EQUAL of everything that relates to God.
God is one and ALONE Holy ONE God was manifested in the Flesh John said Jesus is the true God and eternal life (1jn5:20) HEAR O ISRAEL the Lord your God the Lord is One (Not 3 Lord) JESUS is one Lord John said only ONE sat on the throne Paul said Jesus throne is forever and ever. If God is 3person Where are the throne of OTHERS..?
I'd love to have a Trinitarian answer one question: who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24 when God says He created everything "alone" and "by Myself"? Father, Son, Holy Ghost, or is a triune God speaking as a composite?
truthseeker staats Why does Hebrews 1:1,2 say that the God who spake by the prophets has spoken in these last days by His son. That would identify the one speaking "by the prophet Isaiah" as the one who has a son. If the son was speaking "unto the father's by the prophets", then the "son... hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son".
Justin Gatlin I agree. When God spoke in the Old Testament there is only one "person" speaking. Hebrews 1:1-2 identifies that as the Father. The Father takes full and exclusive credit for doing and being things that the New Testament declares that Jesus does and is. Jesus is The Father with us, Emmanuel.
If Jesus is the Father how do u explain this verse?.... And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5 NIV)
They basically teach that Jesus is God the Father and they also teach that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. But that’s not true , because although Jesus is God, Jesus is not the Father. The Father is His own distinct person. Oneness people believe that there is no difference between the Father, the Son , and the Holy Ghost, whereas us trinitarians believe that the 3 are 1. But the three are not each other.
@@thelionsarmy9144 Oneness is the belief and doctrine that There is only one God and one Person. The Heavenly Father manifested Himself in the flesh and doing so is the begotten Son of God. We look at Jesus prophecy Isaiah 9:6. He will be called ...Mighty God, The everlasting Father, Prince of peace. Isrealities asked Jesus to show us the Father and Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. I and my Father are One. Jesus said he is I AM. Matthew 28:19 tells a truth while giving a command. To baptize in THE NAME of the father,Son and Holy Ghost. Three manifestations of One God who has One Name. We look at Acts 2:38 as Peter tells the great crowd how to be saved..and Peter said unto them repent and be baptized everyone in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The ONE NAME. As also stated in acts 4:12- neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. The truth is Jesus is the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Jesus said I will send the Comforter ( Holy Spirit ) in my name. The prophecy of Joel referenced in acts on the day of pentecost. The Lord said in the Last Days I will pour out MY Spirit upon all flesh...he didn't say The Spirit referring to another person he was talking about Himself. God didnt send a separate person to be a sacrifice for our sins, He sent Himself. One Mighty God who is able to manifest Himself as a burning Bush, a pillar of fire, God in the flesh. God is omniscient.
Perkins hits hard on this concept of the "singular person pronoun." Why would we expect anything other than a singular person pronoun, considering that there is only one God?
@@zachburkholder2559 Of course. Either there is a Father and Son or their is just Jesus. None is greater than the Father.🕎. Who is able to manifest himself in many forms, but not 2 . Causing confusion in us primitive simple minded humans. God has always existed . Father Yahwah.🕎🇮🇱. I’m persuaded Christ proceeded forth from God. Not created. How can a created being be on par with an ever existing being? God Bless.🕎✝️
melted into the same deal of unitarians accusing trinitarians of polytheism. where the one-pens, JWs and muslims get mixed up is when they think that because these 3 persons are individuals that they must have their own agenda. john 10:30 where Jesus says He and the Father are one is them being one in will and purpose. gen 19:23 of the LORD raining down fire from the LORD is simply the two divine persons working together to accomplish one goal. haven't watched the whole debate thus far but i hope 1cor 8:6 gets mentioned. this verse is redundant if the Father and the Son are one person switching modes. also, Jesus has to pre-exist the incarnation in order to create all things.
You said, "...when they think that because these *3 persons are individuals* that they must have their own agenda." Of course, we could easily point out your blatant Tritheism viz your divine *individuals* concession...but equally erroneous is your notion that the "divine individuals" are "working together." The Son of God asked that His Father "let this cup pass from me" & your imaginary "2nd & 3rd divine individuals" do not even know the time of Christ's 2nd coming....Yea', reeeeeeeeal "divine unity". Put your eraser down, it will still be there when you're finished putting your Trinnie twist on it!
yep, they are indviduals. no trinitarian denies this. and yes, Jesus the God man in his humanity asked to have the cup removed from him but also said that he saught not his own will but the will of God. this same person also did not stand in his own defense before pilot or stop the centurians from seizing him knowing what was going to happen. and also that incident where peter said adamently that he would not suffer and Jesus vehemently rebuked him saying he had in mind the things of men and not God. so i don't see your point.
Yudo NeidaNo Your response is an incoherent rambling (e.g., "Pilot"??). It is clear that you have not done your research into Trinitarianism-proper - not to mention your unashamed confession to worshiping *"divine individuals"* within God...Tritheism @ it finest! Trinitarianism in *NOT* biblical Christianity (as Perkins pointed out in this debate) - it is Trinitarianism...Big difference! May you come to the knowledge of the Biblical Jesus Christ as the one OT YHVH enfleshed (Mark 1.2-3).
the Father is not the Son and the Spirit the Son is not the Father and the Spirit the Spirit is not the Son and the Father. so yeah, they're individuals. anyway, it doesn't look like you're going to offer anything compelling for your view so i'll go ahead and end our exchange here. see ya.
Yudo NeidaNo Oneness do not confess that the Son *IS* the Father. The Trinitarian assumption is that the Name of Jesus Christ applies *only* to the Son of God - when Matthew 28.19 clearly shows that the Name of Jesus applies equally to the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit (see also John 17.6, John 17.11; 2 Cor. 3.17; Col. 2.9; etc., etc., etc.). *"Divine Individuals"* LOL! How silly.....Later!
I read trinity in Scripture without actually seeing the defined term in the text itself. I'm sure God is way more complex a being than we can really imagine by orders of magnitude.
Somehow come to the conclusion that Jesus is God? Um, read John 1:1. Seriously only someone who is intellectually dishonest can read “the Word was God” and come away questioning Jesus’ divinity. As for the Holy Spirit, he speaks, he’s referred to with personal pronouns, he’s called God, he’s used in parallel with the Father and Son in multiple occasions... it’s pretty obvious who he is.
Is that just a way of saying the you can infer messages from God that aren't explicitly in the bible? I'm pretty sure I could come up with some new ones. The question is if God wanted us to believe something, why didn't he have the ability to make it clear?
@@eximusic Matthew 13:11 says that not everybody gets it because its not meant for everybody. You have made God a none entity justified by in this case the seeming inability for some to understand His word; a word that in your opinion a powerful God could have done a better job of, making it more readily understood by all. At least that was the impression I got from your comment. As for surprising atheists TBH I don’t wake up in the morning thinking about that.
I couldn't agree the more - I watched that and even bought Geisers book (I believe that's the name of the guy who was with The late Walter Martin) that debate was Golden! John Ankerberg also knew this stuff! That was a time when debates where on a whole different level! I really enjoyed this!
@@benjaminmuniz9075 That is a debate I still enjoy watching parts of every once in a while. It really was epic. Probably the first for the oneness pentecostals against a trinitarian.
@@tech1302 very much so - I like how Walter Martin says it in the debate, "for the first time in television history, people will get a chance to know WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it" *may not be verbatim - I also did a recent search last week on Robert Sabin and if he ever changed his position after that debate and stumbled upon a debate he had with Dr. James White who also is considered a great scholar!
@@benjaminmuniz9075 I’ve not yet found a speaker who addresses 1- The Word and The God of John 1:1b ‘the Word was at: nearby, alongside; to: looking toward, going toward Reciprocally with The God’ and acknowledged the Word and The God were two men, two Gods 2- The Holy Spirit of God was the spirit of man within God the Father’s God material Spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:9-11 3- The Word had his own God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:6b 4- The Word emptied himself of his God attributes of which some are Eternal life John 5:26 Glory he had with the Father ( not sharing the Father’s Isaiah 42:8) before the world was John 17:5 Knowledge Hebrews 5:8 learned he obedience by the things that he suffered John 8:28 as the Father has taught me I speak these things God authority John 5:19 His own spirit of God - as the Father has his own spirit of man within him John 8:17-18, 1st Corinthians 2:9-11 so Jesus as God, the Word, would have had his own spirit of man within him John 1:1-3 before he was made flesh John 1:14 Wouldn’t have had the Spirit (the Father’s spirit of man) John 3:34-35 God (the Father) gave Jesus the Spirit at the beginning of his Christ ministry ( God wouldn’t have given Jesus what Jesus had) Wisdom Luke 2:52 he increased in wisdom Abilities God (the Father) gave Jesus the Spirit and all his things John 3:34-35 had Jesus had those abilities God would have given Jesus ONLY the authority to use them; the abilities (gifts) of the Spirit includes Knowledge Wisdom Gifts of healings Prophecy Discerning of spirits Miracles and perhaps more ….. . His God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:7 b ‘put on the form of a servant’ and maybe others … . I would wish they addressed these …..
@@benjaminmuniz9075 I wish they would address 1- The Word and The God of John 1:1b were both God: two Gods 2- each The Word and The God were at: nearby, alongside; to: looking toward, going toward Reciprocally with the other 3- The Word had his own God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:6b 4- The Word emptied himself of his God’s attributes of which some are His God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:7b ‘put on the form of a servant’ Eternal life John 5:26 Glory John 17:5 the glory he had with the Father (not the Father’s Isaiah 42:8) God authority John 5:19 Knowledge Hebrews 5:8 learned he obedience by the things that he suffered John 8:28 as the Father has taught me I speak these things John 12:49-50, 14:9 Wisdom Luke 2:52 increased in wisdom God abilities John 3:34-35 God gave Jesus the Spirit and all his things John 3:34-35 some of which include Prophecy Gifts of healings Miracles Discerning of spirits Knowledge Wisdom Hospitality Teaching And there may be others ….. Which would conclude that as the Word, God, was made flesh the Word (God) was made a created mortal man so God (the Word) was with us, only not The God and not as God but a created mortal man so he had no God nature and a man nature because none of his brethren had a God nature and a man nature Hebrews 2;17a I may never hear these addressed
Perkins said the Son pre-existed as the Logos, word... "Thought, plan, concept in the mind of God"... Then became human on Earth... So in John 17, it's the human "aspect" speaking... Talking about having "glory" in heaven (as a thought/ concept/ plan?)... Perkins, please explain how is that glorious to wish to change from a human to an idea? Creepy! (Perkins didn't answer what glory this was).
There are several Scriptures that talk about God saving us and glorifying us in foreknowledge and before the foundation of the world. In 1 Peter 1:19-20, we read that Christ was foreordained and then was made manifest. In John 17:5, Jesus does not say “before I became a man.” He says “before the world was.” When that language is used, it refers to God’s foreknowledge. In John 17:24 Jesus uses the same wording. He’s asking God to give him what was his before the foundation of the world. He does not use language to suggest that he pre-existed at the Father’s side. John 17 does not prove the Trinity, far from it. It kind of disproves it because of the language that is used that is also used in several other Scriptural passages in the context of God’s foreknowledge.
Response to 1:16:20 Yes, we do find the the Son and the Father interacting in the Old Testament in Daniel 7:13-14 “13 I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 “And to Him was given dominion, Glory and [k]a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every [l]language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed."
Daniel Sarmas Here is a portion of an article I wrote on this subject. Notice the words, “I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13).” Here we can clearly see that Daniel saw prophetic visions of one like the Son of man but he never said that he actually saw the Son of God before he was born. Otherwise Daniel would have written, “I saw the Son of Man” or “I saw the Son of God coming with the clouds of heaven.” Daniel clearly wrote that he saw night visions of “... one like the Son of man ...” because he did not actually see the Son of man before he was made in the womb of Mary. What Daniel saw was prophetic visions of the future Son of God being given dominion over all the earth during his millennial reign over the planet after his second coming. Therefore the prophet Daniel and the other Hebrew prophets only saw prophetic visions of the Son’s future glory before he actually came into existence through the virgin Mary. Notice also that the scripture says, "And THERE WAS GIVEN HIM dominion and glory ... that all people and nations, and languages should serve him.” When exactly was this dominion and glory actually given? Did Jesus actually reign over all nations of the earth during the lifetime of the prophet Daniel or was this a prophetic utterance of the future glory that Jesus would have when he will reign over all of the nations and peoples of the earth when he returns from heaven? Since God “... calls things that are not as though they were" (Romans 4:17 NIV), we can see how Jesus was already given glory in the mind and plan of God before he actually received that glory. This is that glory that Jesus spoke of when he said, "... the glory which I had with you before the world was.” John 17:5 The Bible plainly states when Jesus will actually be given dominion, glory, and a Kingdom in which he shall rule all people, nations, and languages of the earth. Revelation 12:5 “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Daniel 7:13-14 Not yet fulfilled. Revelation 11:15 “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ’The kingdoms of this world HAVE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord (One God) and of His Christ (One Man), and He shall reign forever and ever!” Hence, Daniel 7:13,14 will be fulfilled when Jesus returns! Many other scriptures prove that the Son of Man will come with the clouds of heaven to rule over all peoples and languages of the earth at the end of this age. Mark 13:@13 “But in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens." Revelation1 1:7 also proves that Jesus shall COME WITH CLOUDS when he returns to rule over all the earth in the near future: "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." Also notice that Jesus is spoken of as "The Son of MAN" in Daniel 7:13. The scriptures speak of Jesus as the Son of man because he was born from his mother Mary as the son of human ancestry. How could Jesus be the Son of man [the Son of mankind] without being born from a human parent if he had already existed as a Son of man prior to the incarnation? It would be impossible for Jesus to literally exist as the Son of Man prior to his birth because the very title "Son of Man" reference his physical birth from human kind. Daniel 7:13-14 is yet another example of Messianic prophecy where God thinks and speaks as if Christ were already given the kingdoms of the world before they were actually given to him. Just as Jesus was already spoken of as the “lamb slain from the creation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) before he was actually slain, so Jesus was already spoken of as having glory and dominion before he actually received it. Moreover, the scriptural evidence proves that the Son of Man could not have literally existed as the Son during the time of the prophet Daniel because God the Father said concerning His Son, “I WILLL BE to him a Father, and he SHALL be to me a Son (Hebrews 1:5).” Clearly the Father and Son relationship could not have occurred until after Jesus was begotten. EXAMPLES OF MESSIANIC PROPHECIES GIVEN AS IF THEY ALREADY OCCURREDPsalm 2:7 “... Yahweh has said unto me, You are my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN YOU.” Are we to believe that Jesus was actually begotten [born] when David wrote this psalm?Psalm 22:16 “They pierced (as if it already happened) my hands and my feet.” Was Jesus crucified twice?Psalm 41:9 “Even my close friend (Judas), whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.” “Has lifted!” Could Judas have actually betrayed Jesus in heaven before he was born?Psalm 118:21-22 “I will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my salvation (Jesus is God who became our salvation). The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone (Jesus is our chief cornerstone - Ephesians 2:20 - New American Standard Bible).” Could the Pharisees have actually rejected Jesus the Messiah one thousand years before they were born?Isaiah 53:1-5 “Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him ... He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain ... he took up our pain and bore our suffering ... But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities.” Notice how Isaiah spoke of Jesus as having already been despised, rejected, and pierced 1000 years before hand!
I am just beginning my journey with theology and I was wondering, at the end of the day, why does it matter whether we are trinitarian or unitarian? Does that change the gospel? Are other key doctrines changed because of it? Whether God is revealed in 3 persons or 1 person, aren't we all born sinners in need a savior? God being trinitarian or unitarian doesnt change how we are saved. does it? Someone enlighten me.
If you are just beginning your journey then yes, it does not matter if God is one person or 3. There are other things more important to focus on. This can wait.
Hey bro... hope you’re doing good on your walk man... i hope that seeing the division doesn’t steer you away from the Bible bro, I think a majority of us are just trying to know God personally and sometimes we can get ahead of ourselves to the point where we could sound rude but it’s all love ! But yeah I hope you’re doing well with your walk !
Don’t get caught up in all of this. Just focus on Christ Jesus, and what he’s done for us. Trust in Him and what he’s done for us on the cross even if you don’t completely understand everything else. This is all a huge, divisive stumbling block that will do nothing more than push you away. Many blessings, brother, on your journey.
Please, Christ. brothers do answer with the truth(before it is too late as life is short and time is flying)? this can save you with a lot of trouble in the hereafter. At least out of million Christ-followers who are being visited by Jesus every day, should not they ask Jesus next time that they should read 66 books or 72 books of Bible as Word of God? (Trinity Added in 1 John 5:7-8) And where is His Gospel instead according to Gospels? I hope if it is Jesus he will save his followers from long debates if he was GOD or son of God? I hope if it is Jesus and not the devil? Problem solved! I want a solution through Comforter or Holy Spirit per John 16:12-14. Please don't skip and decide before it is too late as we are gifted life once from Almighty God. Why are those lands being populated by Muslims ever since where JESUS Christ had been dwelling? Just click these short clips, please ruclips.net/video/APEi-a6Bp3M/видео.html ruclips.net/video/A11RZ06bb3Q/видео.html ruclips.net/video/IRVKWugcoJQ/видео.html ruclips.net/video/7ubxU5EX5_A/видео.html ruclips.net/video/NoAeTMjwmK8/видео.html Never Knew You Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?” Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” Matthew. 7:21who are showing miracles in Jesus name ( with the belief he is Almighty God)? ordinary Christians????? This cloth free fruit is certainly not that fruit whom Jesus would have wished for!!!!!
Brother, If you have a brain then you should believe in Church or JESUS? Matthew 12:40--Jesus replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40: For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Jonah was alive in the belly of fish so how come we believe Jesus was dead for 3 days ????? ask your priest whom you should believe, the words of Jesus (PBUH) or the words of Church????? "Seek the Truth and the Truth shall set you free"
Ummm, Perkins has openly challenged Dr. Edward Dalcour & others...& they keep dodging him. Besides, nothing to be "haunted" by in his debate w. White above....unless you're still farcically defending White's open confession of a "god" (note the little *g*) who exists as *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*. LOL! You tritheists just never get it.
I'm not sure what to make of the point at 1:16:10 . He says, "they had no interaction whatsoever", and then right after that he says, "one Yaweh was on the earth, calling down fire from another Yaweh in heaven." I don't follow the argument in favor of modalism at this part. Can anyone help?
No scripture proves that one of the three angels which appeared to Abraham on the plain of Mamre was actually Yahweh Himself. Yahweh is the only true God the Father who used angelic messengers in the Hebrew scriptures to manifest Himself. The Book of Jasher is mentioned in Joshua 10:12-13 when Lord stopped the sun in the middle of the day during the battle of Beth Horon. It is also mentioned in 2 Samuel 1:18-27 as containing the Song or Lament of the Bow, that mournful funeral song which David composed at the time of the death of Saul and Jonathan. Since inspired scripture itself gives credence to the authenticity of this book, then surely we can also read it as a reliable source. JASHER 18:4 And Yahweh appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him, and he was sitting at the door of the tent, and he lifted his eyes and saw, and lo three men were coming from a distance, and he rose up and ran to meet them, and he bowed down to them and brought them into his house. Notice how the book of Jasher states that Yahweh sent three angels and that only two of the angels went to Sodom. Here the book of Jasher says that all three of the men were angels. Both the Bible and the book of Jasher says that these men were angels. Trinitarians allege that one of the men was literally Yahweh God Himself or a pre-incarnate Son of God because God had spoken through one of the angels. A PRE-INCARNATE SON OF GOD COULD NOT HAVE SPOKEN TO ABRAHAM OR TO ANY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT ISRAELITES BECAUSE HEBREWS 1:1 PROVES THAT THE SON DID NOT SPEAK UNTO THE ISRAELITE FATHERS UNTIL “THESE LAST DAYS.” Hebrews 1:1 “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son …” Therefore we can conclude that all angelic messengers in the Hebrew Scriptures were not pre-incarnate appearances of God or Christ. So what happened in Genesis 19:24? "Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven." This verse indicates that the omnipresent Spirit of Yahweh "fills heaven and earth (Jeremiah 23:24)." The Spirit and power of Yahweh can move and act both in heaven and on earth at the same time. In this light we can understand how Jesus is the full incarnation of the only true God the Father. God the Father never had to leave heaven to manifest Himself in Jesus. This is the teaching of the Modalistic Monarchians who always comprised the majority of believers in the early days of Christianity. Numerous free e books at apostolicchristianfaith.com
ritchiesteven Ok. Here's the ESV on that: Genesis 18:1-2 "And the LORD [Hebrew: Jehova] appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth." There's really no reason not to think that the Lord was one of the three men. If you're going to argue, "well, it doesn't technically say, 'He looked up and saw the Lord with some men'", I would respond saying that it just doesn't make sense to read this chapter any other way. See Gen 18:16-20 for another example of the context clearly pointing to the Lord being a part of the group there. On the same hand, the "it doesn't technically say..." argument works as well, and better, when applied to Hebrews 1:1. "It doesn't technically say that His Son never spoke to us prior to Hebrews 1:1". There. Plus, lets look at the context of Hebrews 1:1... what is the point Paul was trying to make? Who was he talking to? Hebrews was written for the Jewish Christians who were being persecuted by the Old Covenant Jews and therefore being tempted to return to "the Law", which cannot save (see the rest of Hebrews to support this; you can also Google "Why was Hebrews written?") . When you look at it that way, it makes sense for Paul to make that distinction and to affirm that God is speaking to us by His son, who is Jesus. It does not mean that Jesus did not exist, or did not speak, prior to the incarnation. To read it that way would be to ignore the context. Now, as for Jesus never speaking in the OT ever, I would say that John 12:41 (and context, see Isaiah 6, quoted by John 12:40) clearly indicates that Jesus was present in the OT. Interesting that you're reaching out to apocrypha to prove your first point. Now, as for it being a reliable source about the nature of God -- it's not. When you're arguing things about the nature of God, the safe thing to do, in general, is to assume that the canon is correct when it conflicts with non-canon. Anyway, props for being well read in things other than Hebrews.
Zac Slade I quoted Jasher only because inspired scripture itself gives it credence. Here are some of my notes on the subject. ANGELS ARE MESSENGERS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD HIMSELF. ANGELIC APPEARANCES BROUGHT THE PRESENCE, POWER, AND MESSAGES OF GOD BUT THE ANGELIC MESSENGERS WERE NOT GOD HIMSELF. AN ANGEL WRESTLED WITH JACOB IN Genesis 32:24 “Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. JACOB CALLED THE NAME OF THE PLACE WHERE THE ANGEL WRESTLED WITH HIM PENIEL IN Genesis 32:30 “So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: ‘for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.’” YET Hosea 12:3-4 PROVES THAT THE ANGEL WAS NOT GOD. “He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yes, he had power over the angel, and prevailed.” HOW COULD JACOB SAY HE SAW GOD FACE TO FACE WHEN HE SAW AN ANGEL? In the ancient Semitic “law of agency,” “A PERSON’S AGENT IS REGARDED AS THE PERSON HIMSELF (Ned. 72b; Kidd. 41b).” The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Adama Books, New York, NY, 1986, pg.15 states: “The angels that spoke the law were Yahweh's agents or representatives. As such, they had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to seemingly appropriate His name as in Exodus 20:2; ‘I am Yahweh thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.’ They were speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted them to say.” Exodus 23:20-23 "Behold, I send an Angel before you, to keep you in the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if you shall indeed obey his voice (THE ANGEL’S VOICE), and DO ALL THAT I SPEAK (GOD’S SPOKEN MESSAGES); then I will be an enemy unto your enemies, and an adversary unto your adversaries. For my angel shall go before you, and bring you in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off." THE ANGEL WAS THE ACTUAL MESSENGER SPEAKING TO THE ISRAELITES WHILE YAHWEH GOD HIMSELF COMMANDED THE ANGEL TO DELIEVER “ALL THAT I SPEAK.” Genesis.22:10-12 - "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of Yahweh called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not your hand upon the lad, neither do anything unto him: for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son FROM ME." Notice how we can detect the angel’s voice when he said, “now I know that you fear God.” Yet we can also see that the message of God Himself spoke through the angel when he said, “seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son FROM ME.” Genesis.31:10-13 - "And it came to pass at the time that the cattle conceived, that I lifted up mine eyes, and saw in a dream, and, behold, the rams which leaped upon the cattle were ringstraked, speckled, and grisled. And the angel of God spoke unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now your eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I HAVE SEEN all that Laban does unto you. I AM THE GOD of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow UNTO ME: now arise, get you out from this land, and return unto the land of your kindred." Judges.2:1,4 - "And an angel of Yahweh came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I MADE YOU TO GO UP OUT OF EGYPT, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break MY COVENANT with you … And it came to pass, when the angel of Yahweh spoke these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept." NOTICE HOW THE ANGELS OF YAHWEH SPOKE AS YAHWEH GOD HIMSELF BUT THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES PROVE THAT THE ANGELS ARE NOT YAHWEH. 2 Samuel 24:16 “And when the angel stretched out his hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, YAHWEH relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, ‘It is enough; now restrain your hand.’” HERE YAHWEH GOD HIMSELF RESTRAINED THE HAND OF HIS DESTROYING ANGEL. WHEREFORE, GOD SPEAKS TO HIS ANGELS AND THEY OBEY HIS COMMANDS AND DELIVER HIS MESSAGES.
Zac Slade The Son of God/Son of Man clearly refers to the man Christ Jesus who was born of a woman (Galatians 4:4). Jesus is called the Son of Man because he was born from mankind (Mary). How did the prophet Isaiah see Christ’s GLORY? Isaiah not only saw Christ's glory in Isaiah chapter six but he saw Christ's future glory throughout his prophetic revelations. He saw CHRIST’S FUTURE MINISTRY OF MIRACLES - Isaiah 33:5 He saw CHRIST’S FUTURE VIRGIN BIRTH AS IMMANUEL, GOD WITH US - Isaiah 7:14 He saw CHRIST’S FUTURE NAME being called the same Name as “THE MIGHTY GOD” and “Everlasting Father.” Isaiah 9:6 He saw CHRIST’S FUTURE ASCENSION TO THE EVERLASTING THRONE - Isaiah 9:7. 1 Chronicles 29:23 calls that THRONE, “THE THRONE OF YAHWEH.” John 12:37-41 “But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled which he spoke, ‘Lord who has believed our report? And to whom has the ARM OF YAHWEH been revealed?’ Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, ‘He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart: that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. THESE THINGS SAID ISAIAH, WHEN HE SAW HIS GLORY, AND SPOKE OF HIM.” John 12:37-41 Isaiah saw and spoke of Christ’s glory throughout the book of Isaiah. That is why John quoted Isaiah 53:1, “Who has believed our report? And to whom has the ARM OF YAHWEH been revealed?” Daniel also saw Christ’s FUTURE GLORY: "And to Him was given dominion, GLORY and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.” Daniel 7:14 1 Peter 1:11 “… the prophets … predicted the sufferings of Christ and THE GLORY THAT WOULD FOLLOW.” John 2:11 "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and MANIFESTED HIS GLORY; and his disciples believed in him." When we compare scripture with scripture we find that Jesus was speaking about his predestined GLORY which he already had with the Father “before the world was” actually created (John 17:1-5). No Trinitarian can find a single scripture which proves that the Son of God actually experienced GLORY in the Hebrew Scriptures unless they want to acknowledge that the Son had experienced GLORY as Yahweh God the Father prior to God the Father's incarnation in Christ Jesus.
Zac Slade Modalism and Trinitarianism are the same thing, so they're really debating nothing. All they're debating is if God is three persons or three its. Because modalism denies there are 3 divine individuals only because it rejects the idea of individuals or persons: its a Trinity or ITS instead of persons. Same false doctrine, different terminology. The truth is in 1 Cor 8:6, namely the Father alone is God and Jesus is Lord or King Messiah, not God.
+preto shohmoofc guy LOL - you mean James White, the guy who unashamedly confessed to worshiping a God who exists as *"3 divine individuals, each with their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*, talked about chicken feathers when Perkins asked him about the ramifications of the anthropological terminology applied to YHVH, outright stated that no one has known the supposed "true" God (i.e., the "Trinity") for the past 2,000 yrs. of human history...& about 10 other absurd assertions....."Ridiculous" indeed! LOL - Yea', that's really "walking all over" Perkins...what debate were you watching again? Perhaps you should visit Perkins' Blog where he tears "Trinitarianism" to shreds....where it rightly belongs: *apostolicacademics.com*
Roger Perkins "3 divine individuals, each with their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals" Yes, that's the Trinity. What's your point again?
+Roger Perkins "the ramifications of the anthropological terminology applied to YHVH, outright stated that no one has known the supposed "true" God (i.e., the "Trinity") for the past 2,000 yrs. of human history.." This argument fails because the Jews ALSO didn't know that God went by the title "Son" either. Never mind God coming to earth and that the death on a cross for sin of mankind ALSO was unknown to the jews as well. So that was a big fat fail. I thought that the Jews knew whom they worshipped?
preto shohmoofc guy LOL - Welcome to the wacky world of Polytheism masquerading as "Monotheism." Poor Moses, even though he knew YHVH "face to face" - he was deceived about His very identity & need the Trinnies to "educate" him....ROTFLMHO! Yea', the Jews did "know" who they worship....& they have never worshiped a "Trinity!" That was exactly Perkins' point...LOL! Thank God He led me out of "Trinitarianism" into biblical Christianity!!
Roger Perkins Your nervous giggle does not help you here. A). In Ex 33:11, Moses was seeing the pre-incarnate Christ. This is why he could see him face to face. In Ex 33:20 he was beholding the Father which whom he couldn't see face to face for no man has seen the Father and has lived. (John 1:18; 6:46). Your dilemma is, how on earth could he speak to Yahweh to his face and live and yet not be allowed to see his face and live? B). As far as the other position. You didn't refute me. Nor did you answer me. The Jews had no idea that God was going to come down and die for their sins. Neither did they worship "God the Son". What?!? I thought they knew the God they worshipped?
Roger Perkins lost this debate because of his "launching pad." He started with a faulty proposition: That God is one based on the Old Testament. The Old Testament did not fully reveal everything. It was a "shadow of things to come." Putting the Old with the New explains the complete truth. I would also disagree that God is personally singular in the Old Testament (Genesis 1:1,2; Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; Genesis 19:24; Deuteronomy 6:4 - God is Elohim; and Isaiah 6:3 just to name a few). Perkins hangs his hat on pronouns, as if those reveal the full theological truth. Perkins has very shaky hermeneutics.
Ummm, Perkins "lost" nothing. White lost this debate with his open confession to worshiping a "god" who supposedly exists as *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*. How kookie - & you're actually endorsing such blatant polytheism (quite revealing about your own "hermeneutics").
Jesus is referred to as "Elohim" in Psalm 45, as quoted in Hebrews 1.8. Is the Son of God now a "plurality of divine persons"? LOL - you Trinnies just never learn. It is the Trinnies who have a very shaky doctrine. And, Perkins was 100% right in insisting on the normative force of a *SINGLE-PERSON-pronoun* - which was White's identical usage in the NT. Pssst, you Trinnies are not free to appeal to single pronouns in the NT - then explain away the same in the OT (or, make up your own supposed "hermeneutics"). Back to the drawing board.
Perkie has IQ problems or worse...... purposely trying to deceive and keep the bank accounts fat by deception. They are stuck trying to do so through grammar games. He has been schooled many times to what a polytheist is. It's like he just doesn't care. :>)
You are correct Michael. God is Elohim. It is a singular name and it is plural. God the Father's personal name is Elohim. Those who are of His Family are Elohim as we all bear His name. Ephesians 3 :15...................14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Can a trinitarian please explain this verse? 1 Timothy 3:16King James Version (KJV) 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
+alberto calderon I'm not a trinitarian, but originally, 1 Tim 3:16 did not state "God" but instead, "he who was manifest in the flesh" and this is Jesus, sent *BY* God. GOD *NEVER* needed *justified!*
It is easily understood when you recognize that “God” is Father, Son & Spirit and context must determine which is being referred to. Unfortunately, most people (by default) assume God is ALWAYS the Father (alone).
Hmm, was that when White was conceding that God exists as *3 divine individuals, each with their SEPARATE center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals*?? Yea'...real "brilliance"...LOL.
Roger Perkins-In other words GOD & JESUS cant have individuality ? that what I get from you-sounds like there are some things that are impossible for GOD-how so ?
karlos6628 It is impossible for God to lie! He used a single-person-pronoun when He said that there was absolutely no other deity besides Him! Dis you not hear Perkins in this debate? Here, lemme' make it easy for ya'...How many "persons" does a SINGLE-PERSON-PRONOUN naturally communicate...3 or 1:__________?
@@rogerperkins8959 I guess we didn't have the true teaching of who God is until your Oneness Pentecostal crap came out. I guess God didn't really build his church until the Oneness people got here. Look at the early church look at the apostles every one of them trinitarians. You're a heretic and you are cursed
When Jesus prayed he said make the one as we are one. The father, son, and Holy Spirit is one unit God. God want us to be one body in Christ, one unit.
Right! What any don't understand is that God is One. One as a individual person/Spirit. And God is also a Unit...Father, Son, Holy Spirit. As a Unit, that simply means that they all share in what makes them Deity. However, the Father is the One True authority and, therefore, God. John 17:3 While The Word & Spirit are Deity, possessing the same essence/substance as the Father.
Yea', the same cross examination where White openly confessed to Perkins that he worships a "God" who (fictitiously) exists as "3 divine individuals, each w. their own SEPARATE CENTERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS apart from the other other 2 divine individuals"? LOL, were we watching the same cross exam? You tritheists are all the same.
James White says >> *3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness?* White won the debate with this confession?? Sounds like proof of *tritheism* which James White championed.
James Morris AMEN! That's it! James White has championed trithiesm! Now all he needs to do is change the name of his book from "The Forgotten Trinity" to "The Forgotten Three Gods".
Lorel Latorilla for my trinitarian bros. Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Isaiah 46:9 NKJV who was this speaking about?? THE (FATHERRR) ‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. Deuteronomy 32:39 NKJV who is that again?? THE FATHERRRR!!!!... “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord , “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord , And besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the Lord , “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” Thus says the Lord , your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives- The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. I am the Lord , your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” Isaiah 43:10-15 NKJV again is the Fatherr!!!! For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 NKJV whoo???!!!! The FATHERRRR!!!! Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.” Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.” And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. John 8:14-15, 17-19, 23-24, 28 NKJV whoooo??? THE FATHERRRRR Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:54-55, 58 NKJV Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. John 14:8-11, 28 NKJV whoooo whooo whoo is Jesus class??? THE FATHERRR........ COME ON PEOPLE IT CANT GET MORE CLEARLY THAN THIS...... AND IF YOU NEED MORE EVIDENCE I EM MORE THAN HAPPY TO SHOW YOU. it really shows how jesus is the father and the father is jesus. thats the father and son relationship not that jesus was like" daddy daddy" .... Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. Deuteronomy 32:39 NKJV WAS God speaking to another separate individual when he said " i, even i, am He? “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord , “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord , And besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the Lord , “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” Thus says the Lord , your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives- The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. I am the Lord , your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” Isaiah 43:10-15 NKJV That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Another person?? ummm nooo.. “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; Another separate individual? umm nooo and if you look close it is the same thing when jesus said "before Abraham was born i AM" . beautiful scriptures. God bless ..
@Roger Perkins first off, if you’re the same person as the Roger Perkins in this debate, then that’s pretty pathetic that you’re so self-conscious of your performance that you come on here to try to continue the debate with RUclips commenters. Also, sorry buddy, but the Bible teaches one God revealed in three distinct persons. Otherwise your position of modalism is what employs very unnatural readings of the text. For instance, how is it that Jesus has a will separate from the Father’s? How is it Jesus prays to the Father and SHARES his glory before the incarnation? Was he just sharing it with himself? To hold to modalism is to read the text in a very unnatural way. It’s ironic that you’d say singular pronouns naturally implies one person, yet you ignore that Jesus talking to the Father would imply more than one person.
49:26 Sir with the white shirt, Christ already exist in the old Testament 1 Peter 3:17-19 if not how did he go down to earth to preach in the days of Noah?
wow ...James white is like the guy behind the pack that lurks in the back and comes in for the kill the last 50meters lol.....geez this oneness guy is one angry individual
LOL - White openly confessed in this debate to worshiping *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*. Yea', a real "kill" for you tritheists. LOL.
roland thompson Umm, it's real simple, if you tritheists can dish out pomp & insults - be fully prepared to take it. You want respect learn to give it - otherwise we'll roll anyway you wish...your call. But, keep making excuses for White's absurd claim to worshiping *separate divine individuals w. separate centers of consciousness*. Shall we discuss his own pvt. "translation" of Phil. 2.6 - which he failed to inform the audience was *HIS OWN* personal rendering? Lemme' guess, he's off the hook for that one also - LOL (all the while you hold Perkins to the line). Typical Trinnie. Yea', go dream about your false doctrines. Goodness, you Trinnes are not even biblically born again via Acts 2.38/Jn. 3.5. Put your Trinnie eraser & decoder ring down - these verses will still mean what they say when you're finished explaining them away. LOL.
The creeds weren't a tradition of the fathers. They were rather an affirmation of the Biblical doctrine of God as known by Moses and Abraham who BOTH knew the preincarnate Jesus Christ who walked with them and and Moses wrote of.
@@Logos-Nomos , precisely. The Bible is not a theological textbook that lays out the full throated corpus of God's Truth in point by point encyclopedic fashion, but, rather, is the God breathed revelation of His will through the individualized talents, styles, focusses and contexts of many different writers chosen over more than 1500 years. A Truth like the Trinity was affirmed, classified and elucidated at Nicea because Scripture clearly teaches it, not in point by point fashion, but with clear affirmations, in numerous places, of both the humanity of Christ as well as His deity, of both the Father's deity and the Holy Spirit's as well. Just because the text does not use the term Trinity, does not mean the term is not allowable to describe what the text simultaneously teaches about each of the Devine persons in the Godhead. It's childish ignorance and tantrum throwing to suggest otherwise.
Josh Drake, if Jesus existed before his birth, did he "pop" cease to exist during g a split second in time while the Holy Spirit place the divine seed in Mary's womb? And did the Holy Spirit become his daddy? No, my friend, you are following false Trinitarian prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing.
@@Post-Trib so do you just negate the verse I stated? The doctrine of Trinity is well proven. Another scripture there are three who bare witness in heaven. Trinity isn't something just made up. Both Hebrew and Greek languages agree GOD is a plural. Elohim is plural. Also Modelism was deemed a heresy long ago my friend hundreds of years ago. Also in Genesis when Sodom and Gomorrah are being destroyed it says that The Lord called down fire from The Lord in heaven. When. JESUS said GOD is one he used a word that is one plural like a union. JESUS told them to baptize in the name of The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit. CHRIST preached Trinity.
@vitoasaro4663 your opinion of v26 contradicts v27 obviously. So, who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity?
+maxwell williams John 17:1-5 " When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth,having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father,glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." To my understanding, Jesus co-existed with the Father before the world was made, so I think God was talking to Jesus. Re-read verse 5, Jesus says to "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." I am also very confused whether to believe the oneness or trinity doctrine...they both make very well arguments...sigh, this is what happens when the bible is translated over and over again.
To say that Genesis 1:26 refers to a Trinity completely ignores the ancient Near Eastern background of this text. In Scripture, “us” always refers to the heavenly host or the divine council. In Genesis 1:26 they “make,” but then in verse 27 only God himself “created.”
@@krayziejerry In John 17 Jesus uses language that is elsewhere used of God’s foreknowledge, “before the world was,” in verse 5 and verse 24. He doesn’t say “before I became a man.” He goes back to before the world was. This denotes God’s foreknowledge in several verses, not just referring to Christ, but to us too.
Dr James White did a incredible job defending the trinity. God is glorified weather we like it or not. All things are for the glory of God. 1 being 3 persons all glory to ( God ) the Father the Son the Holy Spirit. 🙏🏻 #monotheistic #Trinitarian
That's not the God of the bible. The one God took on him a human existence, hence he became the Son of God, and who now resides in believers as the Holy Spirit.
Man is created in the image of God as a soul conscience and spirit, life and lives in a body as one person with a name, Jesus Christ is the exact representation and image of almighty God, as the power/eternal Spirit of life and the wisdom/divine conscienceness of God and His body is the glorified lamb who sits on the throne of God and created all things by Him for Him and nothing can exist without Jesus christ 🙏 ❤
Why cant we just understand that the Godhead is just like man. One body, soul, and spirit. We as humans have three wills that war with each other but the Godhead is in perfect unity. Jesus is the express image of the invisible. He has all the fullness of the Godhead. However there is obviously three in one. The question is three what? Do we not wrestle between spirit soul and flesh.
Because that's an errant understanding of the Triune God. The Bible clearly tells us that God is one in being. It also reveals three persons that share this divine being, specifically the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These persons have distinct wills and minds, characteristics that are inherent to personhood; they interact as individual persons. There is no earthly analogy to God. He is not like us. Humans are one in being and one in person with one will and with one mind. Btw, Colossians 2:9, a verse that attempts to support the heretical Oneness position, was a message from Paul to the Church, specifically dealing with Gnosticism. Gnostics believed that Jesus had no physical body but that it just appeared so, clearly a blatant heresy. If the physical body that was the Son's human vessel contained the fullness of deity the way Oneness Pentecostals understand, God would not be omniscient, for he would be nowhere else but in that physical body. This is clearly a problem and a laughable yet sad twisting of Scripture. This is just another example of how we need to study the Bible in its context so that we don't rip texts from their context, a process that produces prooftexts.
@@dabish2888 inaccurate. Gnostics believed that Jesus as you correctly stated was not a physical body but that has nothing to do with oneness. We believe that Jesus is born of God as a man.. " & it is for this reason he shall be called the Son of God" it is only heretical because the trinity which became widespread had outnumbered the Christians that were then killed in the Christian Inquisition in 90 AD
@@johnnysantos3997 you are inaccurate. Btw, don't bother arguing the heretical oneness position to me. I was in the cult for years. I know their tired, indefensible arguments. Do not feel invited to continue with me. I wasn't addressing you, and again I know the arguments from both sides. I pray that God reveals his nature to you as well. That is all.
@@dabish2888 Oneness people don’t do the best job of explaining their position. Most of them believe that the name of God the Father is Jesus. I believe that there is a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus. But not the type of distinction you may believe in.
@31:10 It's sad to see such an appeal to the status quo when just earlier they declared "solely scripture." At one time the Protestants were going up against the status quo of the Catholic Church, or has this already been forgotten? Jesus likewise did not care about the status quo. He said, "it is written" countless times. Shouldn't we only care about what God teaches in his Word and not what humans teach?
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. (John 17:11 NIV) More unity talk
Question to the Oneness believers - Considering Jesus was and is JUST ONE PERSON .... What did Jesus mean when he said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."? I'd like a straightforward scripture answer please. Thanks. John 8:58
+Follower of Truth My lands - this passage has Jesus clearly identifying Himself as the One OT Yahveh (I AM). Good grief - how blind can you Trinnies be? Mind-boggling.
Let's keep this friendly. As you'd like me to understand the Oneness beliefs it's only right that you explain it to me in a Godly manner. Anyway, question. You said when Jesus said this (above statement) he was the One OT Yahveh (I AM). So when he was saying this, where was the man-Jesus that was born in Bethlehem at this same time as Yahveh spoke these words? I hope you understand my question, i.e. if this was God speaking, where was Jesus at this time. And remember, keep it friendly.
Another separate question. Jesus said in John 6:46 ""Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father". My question is as Jesus spoke these words, WHEN did he SEE the Father? At what point in time?
Follower of Truth We will "keep it friendly" when you cease w. the smug comments about Oneness believers & Perkins supposedly not being able to answer White's questions. He answered every-single question White asked him. Now White? Not so much. Practice what you require of us Oneness & we'll get much further. But as long as you dish it out it will be returned. Goodness, we don't even believe Trinitarians are biblical Christians & you're attacking us?? Your follow-up question is nonsensical to me, honestly. I already answered your question about John 8.58? Great Oneness passage. Jesus identifies Himslef as the one OT YHVH in this passage. I don't get your point? Jesus spoke as God enfleshed? Further, you asked, "At what point in time did Jesus SEE the Father?" You misunderstand the verb translated "see" (ἑώρακεν). The verb means "to perceive" according to lexicographers like UBS, BDAG, ALGNT, etc. (shall I quote them?). Or, are you willing to say there's a bodily separation in the "Trinity" so that each "divine member" can watch one another act & function as God? Clearly your interpretation is impregnated w. Trinitarian presupposition. Now, since I've answered your question (for the second time), please answer mine: How can Jesus be the supposed "2nd of 3 divine members in the Godhead" when the Bible clearly declares that in Christ "dwells *ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD* bodily"? How many "divine persons" would this teach in the Godhead, 3 or 1? And, since you asked me 2 questions above, here's another one: How can Jesus be someone other than the Father when He responded to a question about the location of the Father w. the words, "Have I been w. you all this time and you still don't know me?" (John 14.9). Does His response make any sense at all if He's someone other than the One Philip asked to see?
+Roger Perkins Good luck getting the trinitarians to answer any questions. All they do is ask, ask ....and ask.....if only they would see the questions and answer them they might just see how tritheistic their doctrine is.
Peter Hodge And all Mr. White has done is put on public display the fact that Trinnies are truly Tritheist masquerading as "Monotheist." White unashamedly told the world in this debate that he worships a God who exists as, "*3 divine individuals, each with their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals*"...Eeek! Also, this debate is almost 4 years old now - & Perkins did indeed make many very valid points from the Greek (while White abused the same).
Roger Perkins Some silly Greeks obfuscated Christ's true gospel. I wouldn't speak the "G" word so loudly Roger. Hadn't I already shown you in scripture how the Godhead are one?? It is not one Person showing up in three different forms nor is it three Persons who are some other unimaginable Persons referred to as a "He" like the trinnie likes to suppose. LOL..... I'm sure I showed you biblically how They are one. :) :)
truthseeker staats LOL - You again? Does ol' Briggie & Josie know you're off of "Kolob" again?? LOL! A "Mormon" attempting to "show" *anyone anything* from the "Bible" is about like Barney Fife attempting to "show" the world's greatest snipers how to shoot a gun...ROTFLMHO! You're always good for a laugh! Run along now lil' Nephi to search for them-thar' ever-elusive "golden plates" ;) - LOL.
Roger Perkins The manifold mystery to the nature of the Godhead has been revealed since Paul. Don't you think you are a bit behind the times Perkie?? The fellowship(oneness) of those three wonderful Persons of deity is *PURPOSE*. That PURPOSE is to be GOD. To be GOD is to be the Family *called GOD* . Didn't you know that we all bear his name?? You are not very good at your job. Then again...... neither is White. :) :) LOL... like two eunuchs fighting over a centre fold picture........
Within the NT context, not necessarily so. The man Jesus is the mediatory between God and man, where the biblical use of God in 1Tim 2:5, references the one and only God, and not only merely the Father. It turns out that because man fell from fellowship from the one God, then in order for the NT mediator to reconcile man to God, he must fulfil both roles of being the God to whom man is reconciled, and be the reconciler or mediator in the same person, otherwise who reconciled man to the trinitarian God the Son, or, it is that man fell from fellowship with only the Father, in Eden?
@@davidgreen8574 Hmm only the father in Eden you say? According to John 1:18 no one has seen the father, Jesus is the one that makes him known. Are you sure it was the “father” in Eden? If so how do you explain this verse? “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” John 1:18 NIV
@@DeJai237 within your comment is an admittance that God was seen. You mentioned the only Son, who is himself God, has revealed him. So Jesus is God, and he was seen, so it therefore concludes that God can be seen. But seeing God is relative, and never absolute, for God by nature, cannot be seen. Jesus is God, therefore Jesus by nature, cannot be seen. But Jesus WAS seen, but so was the one God in the OT. Seeing and not seeing God, are relatives. Moses on one hand, saw God, in terms of seeing his backparts. Moses on the other hand, never saw God, in terms of seeing his face or full glory. So the fact that God was seen by Adam, doesn't mean it was not the Father who was seen. If you use Jn 1:18, which you have done, to prove that God cannot be seen, period, then because Jesus is God, then Jesus also cannot be seen, period. We have to be consistent. Is it that there is an unseen God and a seen God? That becomes two Gods, one seen and the other unseen. Now the one in Eden, is the only God Adam knew, who was his Father in creation. By nature he is the invisible God, but the invisible God CAN visibly reveal himself while remaining invisible by his nature. The Father was seen, as in Jn 14:9, and yet Jesus as to his divine nature, was never seen, as in 1Tim 6:14-16. In his millenial reign the entire world will see him. Yet verse 16 says of him, “who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light, which NO MAN can see NOR HATH SEEN“. So even when men see him in his visible reign on earth, there is a side of him which essentially remains invisible, the glory of which if any man sees, he cannot live.
@@davidgreen835 one problem. The one who is not seen is the father, not Jesus. The father has never been seen, only by the son because he is also God. “Complete unity” you didn’t even know the father existed until Jesus made him known. The Old Testament God is Jesus. Again, Jesus makes the father known. I don’t know how you missed that. Jesus was Seen, the father was not. That’s why the scripture made a distinction. “No one has seen God at any time except the son.” Only the son has seen God. I mean I’m just repeating myself at this point.
Got to lose the 70% stigma because maybe he will only receive 70% of Heaven. I pray Perkins & all of us, as predestined & selected by God since the beginning of time, enjoy heaven by faith in Jesus for God the Father's grace, not by works.
Notice how James answers the questions straight up and when Roger answered - well he didn't really answer ! Because he cannot get round what is absolutely CLEAR in scripture.
+Follower of Truth Ummm, the Trinity is "absolutely 'CLEAR' in Scripture"??? Say what? What Bible are you reading? Perhaps you can point us to this "clear" passage:__________? Let's review to help you out of your delusion: White used his own personal translation of Phil. 2 w.out informing the audience this was how own rendering (completely unsupported in the Greek text BTW). White started talking about "chickens" when pressed by Perkins on the anthropological ramifications of God's numerical identity - a clear dodge. Here's the kicker: White openly confessed to worshiping *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*! {I think it's amusing to watch Trinnies ignore White's confession here since it's so crystal-clear tritheism.} White had to be warned by the moderator (who, BTW, I understand is judicial debate judge in AUS) for his typical self-pontificating regarding being a supposed "critical consultant" for The Lockman Foundation. White never once offered a response to Perkins' pointing out the force of the masculine singular adjective translated "one" (heis) in Mark 12.29, Gal. 3.20, etc. Typical Trinnie ploy - just ignore it & hope nobody notices. And I could go on & on & on....and you're *seriously* claiming White was the "winner" w. such classic blunders? Ummm, were we watching the same debate? Did you know the moderator immediately approached Perkins & told him that if they were scoring points & judging the debate that he would've won? Keep dreaming. Here's Perkins recent scorching refutation to White's recent attacks on Oneness believers (hope you learn something that leads you our false doctrine into biblical Christianity): apostolicacademics.com/
+Roger Perkins Listen back on the video from 2:18 and see how you try really really hard not to say the Son or Jesus - and when you finally say it you're trapped because it's clearly written there in Colossians 1:
Follower of Truth LOL - Oneness are not "trapped" anywhere in the Bible. Now Trinnies, all over the place in the Bible (e.g., Isaiah 44.24, Isaiah 9.6, Colossians 2.9, I Timothy 3.16, John 14.9-10, John 14.16-18, 2 Cor. 3.14-17, Acts 2.38, etc. ad nauseum). Go read the links in honesty of heart for biblical education & salvation.
James White says >> 3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness? White won the debate with this confession?? Why is this overlooked in here???
You said >" It's a clear understanding of how God is one." > James White says > 3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness. To be clear this is the "trinitarian" understanding of God. Not what the Bible actually says.
James Morris amen. Mr White have said that it was not the father that came it was the son.bible tell us that the holy spirit also came seems to me that someone stayed behind.
@@tiptupjr.9073 Three different centers of consciousness in God make a composite Godhead. Partialism was condemned as heresy at the Fourth Lateran Council. A part is anything in a subject, physical or metaphysical, that is less than the whole, the absence of which makes the whole different than what it is. Thus, God is actuated and conserved by something less than what He is in order to be what He is. This renders God dependent on His parts to exist, which of course makes Him logically posterior to His parts. Thus, His parts are more basic and fundamental than He. Since God is ultimate, divine composition must be rejected.
@@davidcoleman5860 I'm not always comfortable with the "person" language in trinitarian discussions but the evidence presented here from Philipians 2, John 1 and 17, and Hebrews 10:5 does seem to indicate that the Word was conscious distinctly from the Father in eternity. I don't know if I like using the term "centers of consciousness" but I don't see another way to meet the evidence presented in White's opening statement. I'm not big on divine simplicity, but many theologians have been able to reconcile three centers of consciousness with God's lack of parts, although I'm not greatly familiar with all of the arguments.
@@tiptupjr.9073 Thanks for your reply. As you can probably guess, we (Oneness Pentecostals) interpret the passages you cite very differently. Be that as it may, I think we can all agree that there are many biblical passages that are difficult to explicate given our theological templates. For me, if a concept is inherently contradictory (not merely difficult to understand), then it is false by definition. And if it can be shown that my concept is self-denying, then I'm obligated to change my template and look at the evidence through a different lens. It is our contention that the doctrine of the Trinity (DT) is inherently contradictory and cannot serve as a template for biblical interpretation. Every version (and there are several) either unavoidably affirms composition in the Godhead or it logically extends to tritheism. Neither option is acceptable given the trinitarian's commitment to monotheism and divine aseity. Perkins is a friend of mine and is unschooled in philosophy, which is why he couldn't fully exploit White's explanation of the Trinity. If they ever debate again (and White has steadfastly refused another debate), Perkins should be better prepared in that regard.
Trinitarians apologists get hurt and insulted when assumed being tritheistic by oneness and get mad when oneness say that they are worst than the devils because they believed in 3 Gods while the devils only believed in 1 God (James 2:19) Funny!
I loved the part when he talked about the Bible translations and James said Uh I work for them. We're not Unitarians. We did not mean that you said it meant. I died.
Yeah letting us know James White is a braggert and just because he translates does not make him know truth. He is trying build a translation that benefits the Reformed false doctrines of the trinity and 5points of Calvinsim. Let e give you an example of the trinity how he adds? He says the earliest Greek manuscripts for John 1:18 says Mongenes theos or the only begotten God. But he does not translate it to English that way. Why? Because he has been called on it and if true, Christianity is polytheistic. What about the other 2 non-begotten Gods?
SlaveofChrist "I loved the part when he talked about the Bible translations and James said Uh I work for them. We're not Unitarians. We did not mean that you said it meant. I died." Couldn't agree with you more. Perkins had to be told more than once in this debate about that by Dr. White, and yet he still kept misquoting the passage!! Perkins also came across as a very snippy, angry fellow. I even liked how the moderator had to "ring the bell" a couple of times in the direction of Perkins in order to keep him in line and not go down rabbit trails. LOL!!
TheJpgr1958 It is the only passage that says God is One person and Like R Perkins said there is not a single passage that says God is 3 persons NONE! I assure you Whites bias translating did not fit what they were trying to force into their bias translation so I am sure you did love it but you are going to meet God with it. angry you must have not watched white rolling his eyes and mouthing things like a child.The moderator Told Perkins he thought Perkins won the debate.
mlculwell I have heard people talk about mongenes theos in other debates and I'm certain he's not misusing it. Give me reason to believe he is. Oh and sorry you don't like Calvinism. It really doesn't matter if Scripture teaches it, it's kinda right. But, don't get mad just because he's a Calvinist I love Micheal Brown and I love him partially because he's a arminian.
SlaveofChrist Calvinism and Arminisim are both false doctrines. Yeah monganes theos is polytheism he knows it and will not translate it that way because he knows it. What about the other 2 non-begotten Gods? How many gods is that?I count more than one and that is way too many to be One God! Both of them are wrong I do not like either one of thier false teachings on God!
Yes, we learned that White openly & unashamedly confesses that there are "3-divine individuals, each with their own *SEPARATE* centers of consciousness"? Wowsie! Crystal-clear Tritheism.
Roger Perkins The difference is, James White has decided to let the scripture speak as a whole instead of cherry picking verses to fit his needs and desires. Once someone lets the bible speak for itself, there is no way you can read it without coming to the conclusion that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One being, three persons, there's no way around it.
sticky2fresh Umm, no, the diametrical opposite is true: If you allow Scripture to "*speak for itself*" - There is no way possible to arrive at a God who exists as, "*3 divine individuals, each with their own SEPARATE center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals*". Yikes! This was White's own confession when Perkins grilled him during the cross-ex. Scripture does not teach this - this necessarily *must* be imported from external sources into the Bible. Simply put, it is foreign to the biblical writers paradigm: *God is one person.* (Gal. 3.20; Amplified)
Yes, and judging by his replies to your comment, Perkins needs to review the arguments presented in this and other like debates. Better yet, perhaps he should request an internship under James White so that his biblical errors can be addressed.
+David Maxfield Yea', White really made an "amazing case" as he unashamedly told Perkins & the world that God exists as, *3 divine individuals, each with their own SEPARATE CENTER OF CONSCIOUSNESS APART FROM THE OTHER 2 DIVINE INDIVIDUALS*.....LOL. Pray for yourself, if you're a "Trinitarian," you're in false doctrine.
David Maxfield mr white have stated that the father did not come that it was the son.but then bible teaches us that the holy spirit also came hmmm sounds to me like someone stayed behind.
Well. If the Son existed in the beginning with the Father… where is the mother necessary to join the Father. To produce the pre-incarnate Son? The mother of ANY son. MUST exist “face to face” with the father that conceives their mutual child. The trinity mindset. Is confusion.
The son didn't exist with the father in the beginning but the word did which is the second person. The son doesn't come into existence until the incarnation. John 1 speaks of 2 persons and that the word is the second person but is eternally God who becomes flesh.
@@Jude3Apologetics831 Oh hi! Thanks for talking. The Word is logos I it’s original Greek: thought, plan, speech. If the Word was with God. That makes sense. God’s thoughts ARE Him. Like your thoughts. Are you. John wrote his gospel around 60 AD. There is NO WAY that he is introducing the second person of the so called trinity. Are you two persons or three made in the image of God, as you describe? Then. If John continues and says that the Word WAS God. That makes sense too. Paul agrees with John that GOD was made manifest in the flesh. Exactly. God and the Word are the same ONE. MOREOVER. The Scriptures are inspired by the very breath of God. The same invisible Spirit that spoke the World into existence. The same Spirit that conceived the Son. Begotten had a beginning. The body or temple not made with hands. One Sprit. IN one body. Jesus Christ.
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had *with you* before the world began." -John 17:5. Here you go, all the proof you need that Jesus existed as a seperate person WITH the Father (and not as a form of the Father) before He was born.
You must have a problem distinguishing Jesus and God, Jesus was a man , spoke the words of God in truth, Jesus was with The Father as The Logos, not taking flesh until The Father was reveal by The Son. John 1.1 tells us that The Word was in the beginning.
If Jesus was a second divine person he couldn’t lose his glory he was praying that he would be resurrected just like he was slain before creation. Rev 13:8 doesn’t mean he pre-existed! Isaiah55:11 my word does not return void.
James Morris “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.” Revelation 22:1, 3
Revelation 21:2 ....if we are forever with Christ, and He is with us after the millennium kingdom and the white throne judgement, He will be with us when the city comes down from God....though He lives with us.
Dr. White won hands down, I also loved the debate with brother white and brother brown teamed up against the Unitarian Jewish gentlemen. The triune nature of God is self evident in the Holy scriptures. You will see in the comment section the hate from non trinitarians, not all of them, but some of them, and the trolling from them wow, lol. Some non Trinitarians are even complaining about Dr. whites using the Holy bibles original language. Are you serious, lol. WOW!
@@Sirach144 Actually Yeah. H/e/ i/s/ G/o/d a/l/o/n/g w/i/t/h t/h/e/ S/o/n/ a/n/d/ t/h/e H/o/l/y/ S/p/i/r/i/t. C/o/m/e/ t/o/ /a/ c/h/a/n/n/e/l n/a/m/e/d S/h/a/m/o/u/n/i/a/n, h/i/s/ n/a/m/e/ S/a/m/ S/h/a/m/o/u/n. C/o/m/e/ d/e/b/a/t/e, y/o/u/ c/a/n/c/a/l/l/ in v/i/a/ S/k/y/p/e. The Lord Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.
@@Sirach144 Yes, you’re right Jesus said the Father is the only true God John 17:3. John 17:3 was Before the death of Jesus, yes? After his death and resurrection Jesus went to heaven John 20:17 and while there 1- Jesus received his incorruptible and immortal body placed upon his mortal dust flesh (without blood 1st Corinthians 15:50) body 1st Corinthians 15:53 (Colossians 1:18 Jesus has the preeminence in all things; 1st Corinthians 15:23 all believers will receive the same at the coming of Jesus) 2- was begotten of God Acts 13:33, and 3- The Father said to his Son Your throne o God is for ever and ever; the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom’ Hebrews 1:8 and gave Jesus Aa Ali of his (the Father’s) authority judging man (mankind) John 5:22,27 Bb all of the Father’s authority over man in heaven and in earth Matthew 28:18 Cc all things under his feet 1st Corinthians 15:34-27, Matthew 22:44 (Psalm 110:1) and gave him to be head over all things to the church Ephesians 1:22-23. Conclusion: After the death of Jesus and his resurrection to heaven the Father didn’t remain the Only True God for the Father made Jesus God equal to himself by his own statement Hebrews 1:8 and actions giving Jesus his Son all - keeping none authority in reserve - authority toward mankind (man) John 5:22,27 in heaven and in earth Matthew 28:18, over all things to the church Ephesians 1:22-23. Yes there are Now Two Gods, not two persons in one God, in the New Testament one (heis: one, many in one) God: the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit of God as the spirit of man within the Father’s God’s material spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:8-11, John 8:17-18 ( no spirit of man - a man 1st Corinthians 14:14 (verses 2-14) - is equal to his man except when sent representing his man 1st Corinthians 5:4; the spirit of God as the God the Father’s spirit of man within his God’s material spirit body is not equal to his man, God).
@@righteousnessofchrist3304 The New Testament one (heis: one, many in one) God is the Father and the Son Jesus Christ John 17:3 (before the death of Jesus Christ), 1st Corinthians 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6 written after the death of Jesus. The Holy Spirit of God is the Father’s spirit of man within his God’s material spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:9-11, John 8:17-18: no spirit of man is equal to his man except when sent representing his man 1st Corinthians 5:4.: : The Spirit of God is not equal to the Father because he is the Father’s spirit of man within his (the Father’s) God’s material spirit body 1st Corinthians2:9-11. Jesus had his own spirit of man within his body - The spirit of God’s Son crying Abba Father Galatians 4:6, the spirit of Jesus - Before God (the Father) gave Jesus the Spirit (Jesus, as created mortal man Didn’t have the Spirit of God from God and all his things John 3:34-35 at the start of his Christ ministry when the spirit of Jesus became known As The Spirit of Christ Romans 8:9 ( Jesus Christ Philippians 1:19), and the spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba Father Romans 8:15.
I find it interesting how one will automatically side with the winner of a debate being the person that they share theological positions with. Both men had very good points and did well. I have not heard sermons from White, just debates, in which he is very talented in upholding his position. I have heard a sermon from Perkins and even sat with him and had some personal discussion, namely, concerning his position on 1Cor 15:24-28. He is a phenomenal speaker, preaches the cross, and is very well versed. I think many may not like the country boy approach and demeanor, but it does not take from the study he has done in God's word.
He doesn’t respect context of scripture very well. Also ignores God’s revelations of the New Testament. He also snaps at Dr. White for going over when White was ~10 seconds under his 2 minute response limit. He’s a bad debater, and aside from his opening exposition he does not do much to prove or disprove either position.
one hour in and i'm not totally convinced by either side but let me say Roger put his heart on the field and i respect that...he certainly has so far done better than i expected
@@interpretingscripture8068 Yes, facts do matter more than feelings. And the unavoidable fact is that the doctrine of the Trinity is inherently contradictory and is thus false on its face. I am not merely making the claim that it is so. I can and have demonstrated it repeatedly. Regardless the version of the Trinity you espouse (yes, there are multiple versions), each one either affirms some sort of direct composition in the Godhead or tritheism. Thus, regardless the slickness of a presentation or the apparent knowledge of a proponent, an inherently contradictory doctrine is false, and no appeal to the apparent professionalism of one side over the other can rescue a patently false position.
@David Coleman I would say the concept of the Trinity is very logically consistent however what is revealed in scripture is of utmost importance. Scripture is clear that the Father is God...that the son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God yet there is one God. The only logical way to maintain both the Oneness of God and the personhood and deity of all three is the Trinity....one Triune God.
@@interpretingscripture8068 You claim that the doctrine of the Trinity (DT) is logically consistent, but the revelation of the Bible is "of utmost importance." This implies that biblical revelation is superior to logical consistency. However, without logical consistency, the Bible would be incoherent. False concepts cannot, even in principle, be rendered true by an appeal to the Bible, because that would render the Bible a book of falsehood. If a concept is untrue, then it cannot, by definition, be a biblical concept (if the Bible is the infallible word of God). It is no different if we attempt to read "married bachelor" into the Bible. If you're married, you're not a bachelor, and vice versa. If the Bible doesn't teach false concepts, it then follows that the Bible cannot teach the concept of married bachelors. As I stated, regardless the version of the Trinity you espouse, excepting Swedenborgianism, you either affirm some form of direct composition in the Godhead, or your affirmation leads unavoidably to tritheism. Since you clearly disagree with me, then I invite you to explain how your concept of the DT does _not_ avoid composition while maintaining monotheism. Or, perhaps you have no problem with a composite Godhead. In that case, I'd like to read your explanation why that does not render God's being dependent on His parts for His actuation and conservation.
@David Coleman Logic and God are 100% compatible because it's part of his nature. The weakness of logic is not in God or his truth but only in man's perception and understanding of logic. Thus the "however". You assume God must be bound by our finite understand of one vs plural. God is infinite and is everywhere present simultaneiusly yet at the same time scripture also reveal to us that he dwells in heaven. There are many characteristics of God that cannot be fully grasped by our finite minds but we accept them as true because he gives us a glimpse of them as they are revealed in scripture. This is also true of his triune nature. This is not logically inconsistent except to the finite mind of man.
That was hardly an explanation… not a scriptural explanation, he can only do it with theological understandings; meaning he has to step outside of the Bible and use words that you can’t even find it the scriptures. Mans interpretation…
Pretty easy to defeat the oneness arguments since they he is basically saying “the New Testament authors were wrong”. So then do we throw out the New Testament? Pretty clear they don’t want to let the entirety of scripture speak.
Your title is deceptive. Modalism teaches God ceased when Jesus was born, then Jesus ceased when His body died. Oneness teaches God is omnipresent, manifested in the flesh while still existing in Spirit everywhere, and that Jesus was and is the image of the invisible God.
Yes, I am 100% "sure." Where does the book of Hebrews offer a radical different view of the OT identity of Yahveh:__________? Esp. since this book was addressed to believers soaked in the OT canon (Hebrew believers). Nothing more than usual Trinitarian eisegesis.
As I read through the comments, I noticed how people correlate oneness with Pentecostalism. This is the first time I've ever seen a correlation made between the two but I can assure you that this isn't a prerequisite (so to say) in the Pentecostal creed. I am Pentecostal and wholeheartedly subscribe to the trinitarian understanding of God using logical deduction in exegetical sola scriptura. Btw, I started watching lectures, debates, sermons regarding the trinity only recently because I work with JW who think Jesus was a created being of God. If anyone is interested in a good debate regarding this topic, look up the "trinity debate" with Michael brown and James white one the panel against Unitarians. Be blessed!
Oneness Pentecostalism is a thing - also called the United Pentecostal Church. I was raised in the UPC, but now fully embrace the trinity. The Biblical languages more accurately support the trinity than modalism.
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Enjoyed this debate? Check out some of our recent sermon series on the Blood of Christ!
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In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." (John 8:17, 18 NIV)
👏🏾👏🏾
being a "witness" need Self-awareness,therefore Father and Jesus Both Have Their Own Self awareness,therefore 2 Distinct persons
I absolutely love John 8:17-18 because the surest way to quickly shut down any oneness believer or teacher.
It leads us straight to the context of what I John 5:7 is truly about.
What I John 5:7 is actually saying is that there are 3 WITNESSES in Heaven.
3 that Bare Record!!
If there are 3, then they must be separate persons.
Christ calls His Father a witness and the Holy Ghost is also a witness!
So, the Oneness believers are simply liars, deceived by Satan to say that God does not have a Son. They say the Father put on flesh and, somehow, became His own Son.
And the I John 5:10 says that if you don't believe The Father's record, or witness of His own Son, then you have made God a liar!
Christians believe in One God and that ONE God is the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ!
Hallelujah!! 🙌🏾
Exactly. That’s proof Christ is separate from the One true God!
@@fitafries7274 yet, Christ shares the Deity of the One true God. Father is Deity and His mother is Humanity.
I grew up in the Oneness cult. Shortly into Perkins' introductory remarks, he made a familiar yet repulsive move, namely *YELLING* at his audience. Apparently, at least in the mind of many oneness speakers, this tactic sets the (false) professor up as authoritative, intending to invoke an emotional response. When your argument lacks reason, just yell. Yeah, that's the ticket🙄. I always hated that.
Perkins soundly lost this debate in the view of any reasonable person, from his misrepresentation of White's (i.e., the Christian) position to straw man argumentation. I don't expect Perkins to admit this, nor any of those who are victim to Oneness theology, but the fact remains. Great job Mr. White with systematically dismantling this heretical viewpoint.
Grew up with all Oneness Pentecostal uncles as preachers. So so thankful to the Lord for pulling me out of that heresy by the Grace of God. The fruit of the spirit is completely absent there. All emotional based spiritual superiority.
You are victim of catholic theology
Who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity?
@@Post-Trib The word itself is just that, a word given for the divine being (i.e., God) as he described in the Bible. The doctrine comes straight from the pages of the Bible, not man. I recommend "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White. It will help you understand the way the doctrine was dealt with throughout the ages.
@dabish2888 Thanks, but I don't read Bernard or White. The trinity isn't forgotten at all because Steven Gill and Nathaniel Urshan have excellent videos about the origin of the Trinity doctrine.
In God's own personal doctrine of himself, he's always stated that he is an absolute numerical one, and he's alone, unique, and without equal. The trinity doctrine contradicts this.
In order for us to have the fullness of God in our lives. We must Repent toward God the Father, Believe in the Son and Receive the Holy Spirit. This is God 3 in one. We must honor all three persons of the one God.
This is a polytheistic statement
That’s the teaching of the anti-Christ.
Well done Dr James. ALL GLORY TO THE ONE AND ONLY TRIUNE GOD YHWH 🔥🙏🏽
Erline Hooten it’s essential to honor (worship) the two of them - Father and the Son. John 17:3 - BUT Also to acknowledge the three of them - Father, Son, and Spirit - to following the teachings of Jesus Christ John 16:13, Acts 1:8, 19:3-6.
@@daraki1 Polytheism is Biblical From Everlasting, From The Beginning - two are each ‘from everlasting’ Psalm 90:2 (God, the God John 1:1b); Micah 5:2 (Messiah(Jesus), the Word). the Holy Spirit of God is the spirit of man within the Father’s God material Spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:9-11, John 8:17-18.
Around the 2:07:50 mark when James talks about John quoting Isaiah 6 John said Isaiah saw Jesus, Isaiah said he saw Yahweh. How can this be without the further revelation of the Trinity in the NT? Debate over. Good work, James.
I am amazed at the inability of Roger to answer simple logical grammatical questions. it is now clear to me that the oneness position is irrational and illogical and uses very poor argumentation that unfortunately leads many astray that are not as well informed.
Andre Bentrup Triune God is the truth. One person does not talk to himself
Agreed
@@kiwivalenz431 GOOD POINT!
@@kiwivalenz431 James White said God has 3 centres of consciousness 😅😂 how come 1 God has 3 brains and 3 heads? 😂 thats polytheism!
Even Augustine said the terms “father”and “son” are relative.. To say there are three persons is blasphemous.. we know that there is only one God, one Savior… let’s not create definitions that are confusing. Christ was God manifest in the flesh…God incarnate. Fully God AND fully man. We have our salvation because Christ, our representative as man without sin was God in full and man… not man with a portion of God or God with a portion of man. We, having Christ in us, his Holy Spirit have a portion of God in us , we are NOT God incarnate. We seem to get confused with Jesus’ dual nature. But at the end of the day God is one person, one sentient being who intercepted our world and died for us in the flesh and was resurrected from the dead. He dwelt with us AS ONE OF US but was God who loved us to die for us. He’s our wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father and Prince of Peace!
After watching the debate, it is quite clear that Mr. Perkins 1) does not even understand the nature of the debate and 2) does not have the ability to understand Dr. White's questioning. He gives the strong impression that he showed up to the wrong debate.
+chriscox1121 Ummm, then apparently you agree with White's open confession to worshiping a "God" who exists as "3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"? LOL - Perhaps it is *you* who needs to go back do more study.
You trinitarians are so funny. God love you trinitarians so much that he "came" for your sins to die. 😂
@@bornagainliars7556 Yes, the Word was God and became flesh and dwelt among us.
@@bornagainliars7556 so youre saying modalists dont need Gods grace?
@@rogerperkins89597 years late to the party. You need to study John 1, Colossians 1:15-23, Philippians 2:5-12, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1, Revelation 1, Genesis 1, Genesis 11, Genesis 19, Joshua 5, Zechariah 3, Isaiah 46, Matthew 3, Matthew 28, etc.
The Trinity is blatantly apparent throughout the Bible. To make a mockery of the Holy and Just God is foolish. Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Spirit is God. We try to comprehend using our finite minds and have struggles, but the revelation and testimony scripture gives us irrefutable.
The biggest difference in this debate, is that James White knows what he is talking about
I think the only thing James White knows is that he has to make people believe in three Gods instead of ONE.
@@olivanaqura5785 , nope.
@@olivanaqura5785 very true
@@olivanaqura5785 small minds only see it as 3 gods. Read your bible again.
@@olivanaqura5785 nope 2x
35:23 Perkins: “This explains why we never see Father and Son distinction in the OT..”
How does Mr. Perkins explain why the word for God in Hebrew (Elohim) is in plural word form?
How does he explain Genesis 1:1 that says “Let us create…” is in plural form?
And that David said in the scriptures - “The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”” in Psalm 110:1
Dr. White was very well-composed here. Tells so much about his competence and knowledge of the subject.
Ummm, not exactly, you should do some background research into this debate (he was a total jerk toward Perkins prior to this debate on his podcast). Perkins simply returned the favor in the debate & was not bullied by White.
@@rogerperkins8959are you the roger perkins who debated white?
@@theodoremyers4912 Roger is extremely impolite.
Hi there. While I respect a person’s composure while expressing oneself, that is not a factor in determining the content of what is expressed, to be truth.
A very nervous person may have the truth to tell, with a shake in his voice 😊
@@anneviggiano3801 what someone believes is the truth, does not mean it is the truth 🙌 Jesus christ is the truth, and the truth will set you free 😉 ❤
Over the years of having contact with Oneness churches, preachers, and teachers, I've noticed that Trinitarians speak with more love and less frustration in their voices when they have debates. Even just interactions with saints or even sinners.
Amen, God bless u Tony
If that's been your experience, I am sorry it has been that way. My experience has been the opposite. Trinitarians are generally very loving until they are confronted with the very real logical difficulties of the doctrine of the Trinity (DT). When they realize that there are logical contradictions in their profession, I've seen them get frustrated, angry, defensive and verbally abusive.
Normally, people get defensive when they lack the argumentative tools to properly counter a competing claim. They also get defensive when they're more interested in defending their tradition than they are in pursuing truth. And that goes for all sides of the debate. The old observation rings true here: In a controversy, the instant you feel anger, you have ceased striving for the truth and have begun to strive for yourself.
A trinitarian drove by our church and contacted me about the doctrine of Oneness. He couldn't believe that anybody could reject such an obviously clear biblical doctrine as the Trinity. I assured him that I was once a trinitarian and that I was thoroughly familiar with the prooftexts and arguments for the DT, and that if he would just grant me five minutes, without interruption, to explain the Oneness doctrine, he could then rebut my claims and ask any question he'd like. I didn't get but two sentences out of my mouth before he broke his word and repeatedly interrupted me. It got so bad, I had to break off the dialog. I told him that when he got around to keeping his word and give me five minutes of uninterrupted time, I would be more than happy to continue the dialog. That was several years ago. I'm still waiting.
That is probably because they are the real Christians ✝️
Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR IMAGE-GOD was speaking to angels ? what a nonsense -like if the angels have CREATIVE POWER-can u imagine GOD needing the help of angels to create man ? what a blasphemy .
Hmmm, we must have overlooked the terms God the Father, "God the Son," & "God the Holy Spirit" - or "Trinity" - in Gen. 1.26....But hey, we're fair peeps, maybe you can point us to those terms since it seems so clear:__________? Hear that music in the background?
Roger Perkins-Let us make man in our image- no where in chapter 1 it brings angels into the picture-how u arrived that GOD was speaking to angels ?
I guess you chose to believe HE was speaking to angels-to admit HE was talking to JESUS or the holy spirit would not be good for you-LOL
karlos6628
Ummm, yes, I agree with Perkins here...as well as the Jewish ppl.! YHVH was indeed speaking to angels....Deny it until doomsday it will not make it any less true. But, since you're so certain could you please provide us where the actual biblical text states that YHVH was talking to "Himself" or the "Trinity":_____________? Hear that music still playing? LOL.
Roger Perkins-JEHOVAH speaking to HIMSELF-since you claim that GOD was in JESUS you would have to prove that-not me
You cant show where in Genesis chapter 1 indeed GOD is speaking to angels-you are the one who cant prove that-not me
karlos6628
In other words you cannot prove that YHVH was speaking to Himself because the actual biblical text does NOT say that...right? LOL...Thank you (BTW - yes, I *can* prove that He was informing angels about the incarnation...see Rom. 5.14).
2:10:56 James White's response started at 2:09:07 . His response lasted 1 minute an 50 seconds. Perkins accuses him of going over 2 minutes.
Mr. White is so calm,while Perkins is so frustrated,and inpatient,like a spoiled brat.
Dante Jager White has more speaking experience than Perkins. It's also obvious that White has an false aura of superiority about him, which I think does more harm than good.
in fairness, I've White speak quite ferverently. I don't think Perkins manner of speaking is a valid way of discerning his intent. He's oneness Pentacostal, it's kinda conditioned in them.
yes, I'm trinitarian.
can you not see the spirit on white he looks like( Anton LaVey satan High Priest the writer of the satanic bible) not just in the flesh
Please look it up anybody that looks into the illuminati the beast system
will keep running into the oneness truth also
Dante Jager Perkins is used to yelling with energy like that because that’s how Pentecostal preachers are brought up. It comes natural to him when he’s in that position.
Perkins was very disrespectful here. Where's the reverence for God's word? He's argued a whole lot, but he never actually debated!
Precisely just all over
The modalist kept saying "naturally", but the natural man does not know the things of God, only the spiritual man does 1 Cor 2
*micdrop
@@jameschasemaddox3037 why is it they neither seem to understand:
The Father is God =Spirit =man having his own God’s spirit body with his own spirit of God within himself 1st Corinthians 2:11: John 8:17-18 - the Holy Spirit of God.
The Son
Was God called the Word John 1:1
Having his own God’s spirit body (with his own spirit of God within himself, as the Father HAS)
The Word (God) was made flesh,
A created, not God (an object of worship), man named Jesus having his human dust flesh with blood, and bones Luke 24:39, and 1st Corinthians 15:50,53.
and his own spirit of man within himself Galatians 4:6 spirit of God’s Son who later became known as the spirit of Christ Romans 8:9/spirit of Jesus Christ Philippians 1:19 AND was given the Spirit, the Father’s spirit of God within himself, John 3:34.
After his death and resurrection and ascension to heaven Jesus Christ was
Given an incorruptible and immortal body placed upon his mortal dust flesh and bones Luke 24:39 without blood 1st Corinthians 15:50 body
‘Begotten (born) of God’ Acts 13:33
Anointed as God by the Father Hebrews 1:8-9
Only God of man John 5:22 Only, in all other areas the Father is the God of Jesus Christ Revelation 3:12, and Matthew 24:36.
What happened to Genesis 1:26 LE TUS MAKE FMAN IN OUR IMAGE IN OUR LIKENESS
Also " In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God. The word became flesh and walk among men". The word is Jesus. Another verse is before Abraham was, I am. God the father said I am what I am. Jesus also said I am. Another verse is when doubting Thomas said to Jesus " My Lord and my God", and Jesus did not rebuke him. The Trinity is compared to a person with body, mind, and soul. You are a person and yet within you, you have a body, mind, and soul. Your body is not your mind. Your mind is not your body. Your body is not your soul. Your soul is not your body. God is represented in this same manner. There is one God. Within one God, there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Son is not the Spirit, the spirit is not the Father. God creates the heavens and the earth and everything else in the beginning. If he can do all this, he certainly could manifest himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and be able to communicate among himself from eternity. God is so complex that not all humans could not comprehend his deity.
This verse does not refer to a Trinity, and that was not the understanding of this verse until Trinitarians came along and basically read that into the text.
Finally! A moderator who actually moderates DURING the debate! Good times!
and james white Won
@Thy word is light Yep.
@@ManlyServant I don’t know about that the three different minds was Problematic and I don’t believe is traditional theology. But what do I know I was just trying to keep up.
@@veiltricks2947 I agree. James White speaks quickly.
Three minds is problematic. I believe in three, even four, men each having their own individual mind.
John 5:21 the Father decides whom he will raise; the Son decides whom he will raise; 1st Corinthians 2:9-11 the Father sends his Spirit to search out the things the Father has prepared for them that love him and then the Spirit knows those things of the Father. (Had the Spirit been God he wouldn’t have had to search to know the things God the Father had prepared.) The spirit of Jesus Christ was learning the things of Jesus 1st Corinthians 2:11(1) before the Father (God) gave Jesus the Spirit (Jesus wouldn’t have been given what he had had.).
Indeed, the moderator is an atheist who was a parliamentarian with the Australian legislature, which demonstrates that he had no dog in the hunt. After the debate, he told Elder Perkins that he considered him the clear winner.
Perkins should've asked for clarification more often. He didn't seem to get the questions. He got too emotional, angry, and prideful to focus. He takes things way too personal for a debate. He needs to calm down, slow down, and listen carefully. Instead of trying to win.
Amen, if he knows he's right then he should be able to stay calm but I notice that with most people who "know" they"ve lost the argument
Colossians says in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. It seems to me that the Trinitarian idea says the opposite: Christ dwells in bodily form in all the fullness of the Deity.. Does it not? the direct opposite.
Both men/ philosophies make great presentations/ arguments, but I still struggle with this whole issue
Yeah trinitarian understanding is hard to comprehend, but it makes the most sense biblically
without listening to the whole debate, I am already struck with one fact. this church has a really pretty ceiling.
Oneness ministers seem to always reject the teaching of the New Testament, to prove their point of one God. They dont seem to even understand the Old Testament that point to scriptures like Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in our image and likeness. Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord sit on my right hand until I make thy enemy your foot stool. Daniel 7: When the Ancient of days and verse 13 one like the son of man was given a everlasting kingdom. it many others even in the Old Testament when scripture said Genesis 11 Tower of Babel , Let us go down and give different languages.many other things could be stated
+Robert Minnick
You seriously have not studied this subject!!! None of those verses are triune. To claim plurality without a quantity from scriptures invalidates your argument. Those verses you stated, you are taught lies and distortions to alter the word of God.
The triune god is the catholic god. They took it from the pagan pantheons. As they took all their traditions, rituals, and holidays as well. Modern Christendom is a lie. Jesus was a Jew who taught Judaism. Christianity, true Christianity is a sect of Judaism.
That your view on it believe what you must.And i will also believe what i must God is the judge who is right and who is wrong.
@Robert Minnick,
{{That your view on it believe what you must.And i will also believe what i must God is the judge who is right and who is wrong.}}=>your post
You can believe what you want to believe, but the truth remains!
Trinity is the doctrine of the devil founded by the RCC forefathers and spread out by the RCC...
There is not even one verse in the bible that teaches Trinity!
The only thing you have is: it implies, it implies...
You just saw the word 'US' in Genesis 1:26 and you already conclude that the verse teaches Trinity,
How do you define Trinity?
One God with 3 persons, co equal, co eternal, co existent, They are 'God the Father', 'God the Son', and 'God the Holy Spirit'...
Did Genesis 1:26 say anything about 3 persons of God? Did it say anything about co equality? Did it say anything about 'God the Son', and 'God the Holy Spirit' ?
If NOT, How can it teach Trinity???
There more scriptures the Word Trinity is not in the bible. I see all three at work in Genesis yes let us make man. In the New Testament where Jesus Christ is baptize the Holy Spirit come upon him and the Father speak from heaven. Another place is Jesus Christ said before Abraham I am. He said Abraham rejoice to see his day and saw it. The Lord appeared to Abraham with two Angels before he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Psalm 110chapter 1st verse The Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand until i make thou enemy thou footstool.
John 14th chapter philip ask Jesus show us the Father and it sufficeth us. Jesus said have I been so long time with you.and yet hast thou not known me Philip? Jesus said he that hath seen me hath seen the Father: and how sayest thou then show us the Father?
Jesus is most assuredly identified as eternal in John 1 and Col. 1.
not necessarily eternal in the past, but certainly as pre-existing His incarnation.
@@swentworth Are you implying that Jesus is a created being?
@@bobpolo2964 I do think that is what the Bible indicates, but I'm open to contrary evidence. I do see in Colossians 1:15 says He is the firstborn of all creation as does Revelation 3:!4 when Jesus tells John that He is the beginning of God's creation. We'll need to contend with those verses if Jesus is eternal in the past, but I'm up for it if we can find reconciliation elsewhere in the Bible.
@@swentworth The Greek term for 'firstborn" is πρωτότοκος (Prototokos). It means preeminent or first priority. It's not to be taken literal. David is called the firstborn in Psalm 89:27, but we know he was the last born of Jesse (1Samuel 16:1-13). Ephraim is also called the firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9, but we know he was Joseph's second born after Manasseh (Genesis 41:50-52). Revelation 3:14 is also referring to Christ's preminence over His creation. Look at Revelation 1:8 & 1:18 & 22:13. There's much more evidence for the eternality of Jesus. Chew on this first, friend. See what you think. Take care
@@bobpolo2964 Colossians 1:15 can be translated as "preeminent" if "ktiseos" is a genitive of subordination. If it is a partitive genitive, then the proper translation would be "firstborn, who is a part of creation." Either way, the verse does not "mean preeminent" but CAN mean preeminent (and only if it is a genitive of subordination, which is in question) In Revelation 3:14 "prototokos" is not used at all, but Jesus is called the "beginning of the creation of God." This verse must be reconciled. Revelation 1:8, 1:18 and 22:13 are each calling Jesus the "Alpha and Omega" or "the first and the last." These are titles that God has designated for Himself and which are applied to Jesus. Jesus is also referred to as "YHWH" and "God" and "Father of eternity." Jesus receiving titles reserved for God could mean Jesus is 1 of 2 things, as to His ontological nature, one implies eternality in the past, "God"; and the other implies Him being created, "Image." Also, keep in mind that if you believe Jesus to be the one referred to as "Wisdom" in Proverbs chapter 8, then we would also need to contend with His being created, as Wisdom says of itself/Himself "ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth..." (Proverbs 8:23-24). There is much debate over the term "monogenes" used mostly in John, but also elsewhere, in reference to Jesus. I wouldn't necessarily say it mean "only begotten" or "only created" but it could. Let's not allow our theology to dictate what the Bible says and doesn't say. We are to submit and exegete theology, not the other way around.
I wonder what Perkins would've answered if White would've asked him, who was the one who spoke from heaven when Jesus got baptized?
Not A problem for Oneness , ofcourse is The Father, since Jesus said He is in heaven.
This doesn't prove a Trinity.
Easy too, prove that happened, instead of relying on unconfirmed text.
@@LookOutForNumberOne I mean if you don't believe the bible is the inspired word of God than you likely aren't Christian.
@@WashedMickey The problem is in the belief system, anyone can believe what they want, this does not in any way prove that the thing that they believe exists.
"inspired word of God" This for example is a claim, not the proof.
Saying it does not make it true.
@@LookOutForNumberOne I think it’s obvious the Christian presupposes the truth of the Bible though. Mainly based on fulfilled prophecy.
Please explain: St John 6:33 For the bread of God is He which cometh DOWN FROM HEAVEN, and giveth life unto the world.
read to verse 38 reads "..For I came DOWN FROM heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
My question query is: explain what Jesus meant when he sent CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN.
+Follower of Truth Heaven was the source, just as it was of the "bread" that descended "from Heaven." This is the context & meaning. Besides, omnipresence cannot "come down" from anywhere - it's already where it would be descending.
And, you never answered our questions in another thread. But, this is precisely how virtually *ALL* Trinitarians operate: Ask incessant questions all the while ignoring both the direct answers & questions presented to them. *Sigh....*
+Follower of Truth
You have been asked multiple questions here and in other threads over and over and have not given one answer all the while continuing asking and asking. At what point will this be a two way conversation?
+James Morris Well observed. I am not a scholar, Dr, or any profession in the ministry. I am merely a born-again christian Holy Spirit filled (over many years) who has recently become interested in the two different beliefs - simple as that - thanks for asking.
Follower of Truth Well, I will say that you have a far better attitude than 95% of the Trinitarians on here (& elsewhere).
My wife and I have been talking about Christ on the cross and his reference of Psalm 22 for 15 years. Dr White final gave us the final piece for my wife to understand an argument I have been making regarding the Father looking Christ full in his face through the entirety of the process, never turning away from the Son instead granting forgiveness for the sins of the world through his grace. So not forsaking, fully embracing. Thanks for sharing this debate, and thanks for your response, Dr White.
22👍
@@UNDESPUTEDchamp aargh. Autocorrect strikes again!
I’ve had several doctrinal discussions with Roger Perkins. I’m surprised he felt he was ready or capable to debate Dr. White.
Is anyone? The man is a monster
But he just humiliated James White
@@thetrinitydilemma9300 Perkins wasn’t even in his own class. He lost the debate before it even started.
Pride cometh before a fall
Neither Mr Perkins nor most youtube viewers can understand Koine Greek. Perkins needs to learn the Biblical languages to have this type of discussion. @@thetrinitydilemma9300
Perkins sounds so confused. On the one hand, he says Jesus pre-existing was just a thought in the mind of God,
On the other hand, he says he wasn't existing yet.
Sometimes he says Jesus was the Father in heaven,
Yet other times, he says Jesus was a thought in heaven. UPC Christology is so confusing! Can someone clarify this part (what Oneness believe) for me?
I think we can all agree that the man Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation. What oneness people teach is that the man Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the divine person of the Father. But there is a distinction between the Father and Jesus, because Jesus was a man, and God the Father himself is not a man. But, the man Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the Father's person. In Hebrews 1, we read about the "character" or "imprint" of the Father. This has been interpreted historically as the imprint of the infinite God on His Creation, the "Word" of the God who transcends Creation, at work in Creation. He spake and it was so. The word and wisdom of God. 1 John 1 refers to the word as eternal life, which was with the Father or in His possession, and then was manifested. The man Christ Jesus is the incarnation or embodiment of that. In Colossians then, he's described as God's "image." The image of God, the Father.
Proverbs 30:4
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fist? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
yeah it makes DISTINCTion between Him and His Son
He didn’t have a Son til Jesus was born…If he had a Son before that show Scripture that the Father had a Heavenly Child. We can’t change the definition of Son
This verse is not referring to God the Father and God the Son. It's asking "who hath ascended...what is his name, and what is his son's name?" In other words, name the person who has done this, and name his son as well. Well you can't, because no one has. Only God has done these things.
@@samuelrosenbalm No it’s not because that’s what the verse is saying.
@@samuelrosenbalm There was a particular way of speaking in the Jewish culture. This verse is an example of that. Don’t just name the person, also name his son. We can’t read things into the text that aren’t there; that’s what’s weak Sam.
I am great full that I have received the revelation of who God really is as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and glad that I've been Baptized in the name of Jesus...
Amen
Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6
Acts 4:12
The blood of the lamb which is Jesus is applied. There is no remission for the tiles of my father your father my son your son. You say the name. You're in. It's real simple. If you want to be stubborn and hard headed. You had your chance. Does your wife have your name. I commend you a lot of people never understand. As much as you do. The early church fathers. You know good and well Peter babtized people in the name of Jesus. Think about it what does Jesus mean.
Think about it Matthew was standing right there. Come on out Jesus you don't have to hide bond titles anymore.
William Smith name means by the authority acts 4:7 few verses back you get the context
@William Smith show me in scripture where in the name of Jesus is a formula. You simply miss applied in the name of Jesus. They say it because it’s a command from our Risen Savior.
Personal revelation can be deceptive. We put it to the text next to the clarity of The Holy Scriptures...
Perkins is REALLY rude and disrespectful throughout this exchange. I greatly admire Dr. White's patience and charity in dealing with him.
@Norwalquero,
The debate is about the truth written in the bible, about Triune God or One God,
It is not about who is a nicer gentleman between the two...
Jesus was also rude to the hypocrites unbelievers, He told the Pharisees, you are of your father, the devil...
+52RGD I am well aware of the subject of the debate. However, the scriptures exhort believers to speak the truth in love and to give a defense with gentleness and reverence. You may disagree with James White (I happen to agree with him wholeheartedly). But he is neither a 'hypocrite', 'unbeliever' nor 'Pharisee', so your comparison to Jesus and the Pharisees does not apply. I reiterate my previous observation that Perkins was extremely rude to his debate partner. If he is unable to carry on a formal debate without being rude and disrespectful, then he should leave the debate to others who can.
+Norwalquero,
{{+52RGD I am well aware of the subject of the debate. However, the scriptures exhort believers to speak the truth in love and to give a defense with gentleness and reverence.}}=>your post
Speaking the truth in love refers to the innocent people not to those who spread the lie of Trinity,
But to those who oppose the truth Paul said to Timothy: ''Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with patience and doctrine.''
1st, it doesn't concern you if according to your observation Mr. Perkins doesn't talk with love,
The main thing for you to do is help Mr. White to prove that Trinity is a biblical doctrine...
2nd, I told you already that Jesus is rude to the unbelievers like Mr. White,
He told them, you are of your father, the devil...
Any one who teaches Trinity and debate trying to prove that Trinity is biblical is a fool and HYPOCRITE IN DISGUISE!
Actually Mr. White is not only hypocrite but he also DEFY God to the face,
GOD SAID: I am your Only God, There is no other gods before me, besides me, neither after me,
I created all things ALONE and by MYSELF,
Mr. White answered: NO, you are not alone, there are three of you,
and the two others helped you in creation and redemption of mankind, I will spread this lie in the whole world as my father did...
There is no word nor concept of Trinity in the bible!
There is not even One Verse in the bible that teaches Trinity!
The following can never be found in the bible in words or concept:
There is no Trinity in the bible,
There is no Triune God or Unified God in the bible,
There is no 3 persons of God in the bible,
There is no 'God the Son' in the bible,
There is eternal Son in the bible,
There is no co equal, co eternal, nor co existent in the bible,
There is no'God the Holy Spirit in the bible,
So, how come that Trinitarians always use these terminologies???
These only proves that Trinity is NOT, NOT, NOT a doctrine of the bible!
Trinity is a doctrine of the devil founded by the forefathers of the RCC, and spread throughout the world by the anti Christ RCC.
It was brought to the protestant camp by Martin Luther who himself was a former RCC priest...
OK I get it now. Any of us who are Trinitarian (and not Unitarian) in our understanding of the Godhead are devils and hypocrites who deserve to be treated with contempt and scorn. I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. :)
@Norwalquero,
1st of all, I am not a Unitarian, I am not also Oneness like Mr. Perkins, and I don't claim to know all the truths of the bible,
2nd, I don't condemned all who believe in the Trinity because I myself believed in Trinity for 35 years,
3rd, I only attack severely those who spread Trinity, and debate in public trying to prove that Trinity is the truth,
Unless you spread the doctrine of Trinity and debate in public that Trinity is the truth , then you are NOT one of them ...
May God bless you and open your mind to see the truth...
Why does Perkins keep talking about singular pronouns? In the OT you see sometimes the Spirit, sometimes the Son, sometimes the Father; sometimes the Son and the Father; sometimes the Spirit and the Son; sometimes the Spirit and the Father; and God as a whole without discussion of God's 3 Persons. Can't the OT have this liberty? David said the Lord is my lord's lord speaking of the Father and the Son.
Maybe Roger Perkins does not know Hebrew and Greek.
i.e. Elohim (God) is actually plural in Hebrew.
If the Catholics changed the scriptures why not give Mary a bigger part in scripture ?
Yes, the Catholics priests did add or change some passages in the Bible to fit in their belief about the doctrine of the Trinity. Before the 4th century, we were taught to water baptize in My Name in Matthew 28:19. In Matthew 28:19, in earlier manuscripts, Jesus said go into all the nations and baptize them in My Name. But the Catholic priests changed it to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit to fit in with their belief and their view and concept of the doctrine of the Trinity. So from the King James Bible on to our modern Bible translations, we got this teaching and saying of Jesus to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic priests changed and added some of their passages to the Bible. They were so corrupted that we have debate among so many different Christian denominations to this day that we are divided and are lost as to what is the truth. In Acts 2:38, the Apostle Peter taught the truth. He said " Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ" only. The Bible also clearly taught as that there is only one name under heaven whereby we can be saved. That name is Jesus Christ and not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like the Catholics priests taught. Another passage that the Catholic priests made changes is in the passage where it said " There are three that bear witness in heaven, the water and the blood, and the spirit. These three are in agreements". It did not say that these three are one. But the Catholic priests made changes in the King James Bible in this passage saying " There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. These three are one. They completely changed this passage from the earlier manuscripts to fit in with their theology of the doctrine of the Trinity. So we don't even know what other passages in our modern day Bibles did the Catholics priests add or made changes to. So we don't even know for sure if the Trinity concept of our One true God is correct or not because of the corruptions made by the early Catholic priests.
I can't believe Roger Perkins could not make good use of his 5 mins rebut - still not even touching on explaining the scriptures James expected him to fully explain. He tends to stick to the OT. The reason why he dances around the issue is because he cannot explain it without accepting the Trinity.
So where did he fail? Facts please.
I heard James white say that the revelation of the doctrine of the trinity took place between the two testaments. My question is this: before the incarnation did the Jews recognize God as a trinity? Obviously not. Didn't the Jews know who they worshipped or did they worship God ignorantly?
As Paul ( the Jewish convert) said, in 1Cor. 13, … “When I was a child …… but NOW face-to-face…”
jews are not monolithic, they don’t even touch certain parts of OT out of respect maybe
Oneness lost. he said "fullness of God" dwells in Christ... in the Greek means "full measure of God." so he lost... that proves Greek doesn't mean same person, only CO-ETERNAL CO-UNION CO-EQUAL of everything that relates to God.
+ReformedTheology5
Is this the God you worship? >
3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness?
@@Mecaliman you want him to be a lesbian? 1 Conciusness and act like 3?
God is one and ALONE
Holy ONE
God was manifested in the Flesh
John said Jesus is the true God and eternal life (1jn5:20)
HEAR O ISRAEL the Lord your God the Lord is One
(Not 3 Lord)
JESUS is one Lord
John said only ONE sat on the throne
Paul said Jesus throne is forever and ever.
If God is 3person
Where are the throne of OTHERS..?
Fullness, also destroys partialism too 😊🙏
@Vincent Verona then the father isnt God
I'd love to have a Trinitarian answer one question: who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24 when God says He created everything "alone" and "by Myself"? Father, Son, Holy Ghost, or is a triune God speaking as a composite?
Jesus Christ Himself is speaking. The other two are not. :>)
truthseeker staats Why does Hebrews 1:1,2 say that the God who spake by the prophets has spoken in these last days by His son.
That would identify the one speaking "by the prophet Isaiah" as the one who has a son.
If the son was speaking "unto the father's by the prophets", then the "son... hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son".
The same one who, in Isaiah 63:3-5, brings salvation by Himself.
Justin Gatlin I agree. When God spoke in the Old Testament there is only one "person" speaking. Hebrews 1:1-2 identifies that as the Father. The Father takes full and exclusive credit for doing and being things that the New Testament declares that Jesus does and is.
Jesus is The Father with us, Emmanuel.
If Jesus is the Father how do u explain this verse?....
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5 NIV)
I watched this to learn what Oneness means. I watched it all, and still have no idea what his side believes other than not in the trinity.
They basically teach that Jesus is God the Father and they also teach that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. But that’s not true , because although Jesus is God, Jesus is not the Father. The Father is His own distinct person. Oneness people believe that there is no difference between the Father, the Son , and the Holy Ghost, whereas us trinitarians believe that the 3 are 1. But the three are not each other.
@@thelionsarmy9144 Oneness is the belief and doctrine that There is only one God and one Person. The Heavenly Father manifested Himself in the flesh and doing so is the begotten Son of God. We look at Jesus prophecy Isaiah 9:6. He will be called ...Mighty God, The everlasting Father, Prince of peace. Isrealities asked Jesus to show us the Father and Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. I and my Father are One. Jesus said he is I AM. Matthew 28:19 tells a truth while giving a command. To baptize in THE NAME of the father,Son and Holy Ghost. Three manifestations of One God who has One Name. We look at Acts 2:38 as Peter tells the great crowd how to be saved..and Peter said unto them repent and be baptized everyone in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The ONE NAME. As also stated in acts 4:12- neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. The truth is Jesus is the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Jesus said I will send the Comforter ( Holy Spirit ) in my name. The prophecy of Joel referenced in acts on the day of pentecost. The Lord said in the Last Days I will pour out MY Spirit upon all flesh...he didn't say The Spirit referring to another person he was talking about Himself. God didnt send a separate person to be a sacrifice for our sins, He sent Himself. One Mighty God who is able to manifest Himself as a burning Bush, a pillar of fire, God in the flesh. God is omniscient.
I hope you have an idea of what Trinity is all about.
That’s all. No Trinity but one
Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit. One God, one person, in 3 modes, hence modalism.
Is Psalm 110:1 not example of more than one in the Old Testament?
Perkins hits hard on this concept of the "singular person pronoun." Why would we expect anything other than a singular person pronoun, considering that there is only one God?
This statement is ignoring the very point and purpose of Dr. White.
@@ernestojlassus1354 or maybe your a cheerleader for James White.🙃
@@eyehashereyehadonai8036 Ben Sommers shows ancient Israelites believed God could manifest in multiple simultaneous ways.
@@zachburkholder2559 Of course. Either there is a Father and Son or their is just Jesus. None is greater than the Father.🕎. Who is able to manifest himself in many forms, but not 2 . Causing confusion in us primitive simple minded humans. God has always existed . Father Yahwah.🕎🇮🇱. I’m persuaded Christ proceeded forth from God. Not created. How can a created being be on par with an ever existing being? God Bless.🕎✝️
Do you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior?
@@eyehashereyehadonai8036
melted into the same deal of unitarians accusing trinitarians of polytheism.
where the one-pens, JWs and muslims get mixed up is when they think that because these 3 persons are individuals that they must have their own agenda. john 10:30 where Jesus says He and the Father are one is them being one in will and purpose. gen 19:23 of the LORD raining down fire from the LORD is simply the two divine persons working together to accomplish one goal.
haven't watched the whole debate thus far but i hope 1cor 8:6 gets mentioned. this verse is redundant if the Father and the Son are one person switching modes. also, Jesus has to pre-exist the incarnation in order to create all things.
You said, "...when they think that because these *3 persons are individuals* that they must have their own agenda." Of course, we could easily point out your blatant Tritheism viz your divine *individuals* concession...but equally erroneous is your notion that the "divine individuals" are "working together." The Son of God asked that His Father "let this cup pass from me" & your imaginary "2nd & 3rd divine individuals" do not even know the time of Christ's 2nd coming....Yea', reeeeeeeeal "divine unity".
Put your eraser down, it will still be there when you're finished putting your Trinnie twist on it!
yep, they are indviduals. no trinitarian denies this. and yes, Jesus the God man in his humanity asked to have the cup removed from him but also said that he saught not his own will but the will of God. this same person also did not stand in his own defense before pilot or stop the centurians from seizing him knowing what was going to happen. and also that incident where peter said adamently that he would not suffer and Jesus vehemently rebuked him saying he had in mind the things of men and not God.
so i don't see your point.
Yudo NeidaNo
Your response is an incoherent rambling (e.g., "Pilot"??). It is clear that you have not done your research into Trinitarianism-proper - not to mention your unashamed confession to worshiping *"divine individuals"* within God...Tritheism @ it finest! Trinitarianism in *NOT* biblical Christianity (as Perkins pointed out in this debate) - it is Trinitarianism...Big difference! May you come to the knowledge of the Biblical Jesus Christ as the one OT YHVH enfleshed (Mark 1.2-3).
the Father is not the Son and the Spirit
the Son is not the Father and the Spirit
the Spirit is not the Son and the Father.
so yeah, they're individuals.
anyway, it doesn't look like you're going to offer anything compelling for your view so i'll go ahead and end our exchange here.
see ya.
Yudo NeidaNo
Oneness do not confess that the Son *IS* the Father. The Trinitarian assumption is that the Name of Jesus Christ applies *only* to the Son of God - when Matthew 28.19 clearly shows that the Name of Jesus applies equally to the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit (see also John 17.6, John 17.11; 2 Cor. 3.17; Col. 2.9; etc., etc., etc.).
*"Divine Individuals"* LOL! How silly.....Later!
I read trinity in Scripture without actually seeing the defined term in the text itself. I'm sure God is way more complex a being than we can really imagine by orders of magnitude.
Somehow come to the conclusion that Jesus is God? Um, read John 1:1. Seriously only someone who is intellectually dishonest can read “the Word was God” and come away questioning Jesus’ divinity.
As for the Holy Spirit, he speaks, he’s referred to with personal pronouns, he’s called God, he’s used in parallel with the Father and Son in multiple occasions... it’s pretty obvious who he is.
Is that just a way of saying the you can infer messages from God that aren't explicitly in the bible? I'm pretty sure I could come up with some new ones. The question is if God wanted us to believe something, why didn't he have the ability to make it clear?
The devil is the master of deception. He will confuse you all. Stop making stuff up. The Bible does not teach trinity.
@@eximusic What makes you think He wants everyone to believe? or every believer to know? Maybe give Matthew 13:11 a read.
@@eximusic Matthew 13:11 says that not everybody gets it because its not meant for everybody. You have made God a none entity justified by in this case the seeming inability for some to understand His word; a word that in your opinion a powerful God could have done a better job of, making it more readily understood by all. At least that was the impression I got from your comment. As for surprising atheists TBH I don’t wake up in the morning thinking about that.
Poor Roger Perkins. Much like Robert Sabin in 1985 in his debate with Walter Martin on the John Ankerberg show, he implodes for all to see and hear.
I couldn't agree the more - I watched that and even bought Geisers book (I believe that's the name of the guy who was with The late Walter Martin) that debate was Golden! John Ankerberg also knew this stuff! That was a time when debates where on a whole different level! I really enjoyed this!
@@benjaminmuniz9075 That is a debate I still enjoy watching parts of every once in a while. It really was epic. Probably the first for the oneness pentecostals against a trinitarian.
@@tech1302 very much so - I like how Walter Martin says it in the debate, "for the first time in television history, people will get a chance to know WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it" *may not be verbatim - I also did a recent search last week on Robert Sabin and if he ever changed his position after that debate and stumbled upon a debate he had with Dr. James White who also is considered a great scholar!
@@benjaminmuniz9075 I’ve not yet found a speaker who addresses
1- The Word and The God of John 1:1b ‘the Word was at: nearby, alongside; to: looking toward, going toward Reciprocally with The God’ and acknowledged the Word and The God were two men, two Gods
2- The Holy Spirit of God was the spirit of man within God the Father’s God material Spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:9-11
3- The Word had his own God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:6b
4- The Word emptied himself of his God attributes of which some are
Eternal life John 5:26
Glory he had with the Father ( not sharing the Father’s Isaiah 42:8) before the world was John 17:5
Knowledge
Hebrews 5:8 learned he obedience by the things that he suffered
John 8:28 as the Father has taught me I speak these things
God authority John 5:19
His own spirit of God - as the Father has his own spirit of man within him John 8:17-18, 1st Corinthians 2:9-11 so Jesus as God, the Word, would have had his own spirit of man within him John 1:1-3 before he was made flesh John 1:14
Wouldn’t have had the Spirit (the Father’s spirit of man) John 3:34-35 God (the Father) gave Jesus the Spirit at the beginning of his Christ ministry ( God wouldn’t have given Jesus what Jesus had)
Wisdom Luke 2:52 he increased in wisdom
Abilities God (the Father) gave Jesus the Spirit and all his things John 3:34-35 had Jesus had those abilities God would have given Jesus ONLY the authority to use them; the abilities (gifts) of the Spirit includes
Knowledge
Wisdom
Gifts of healings
Prophecy
Discerning of spirits
Miracles
and perhaps more ….. .
His God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:7 b ‘put on the form of a servant’
and maybe others … .
I would wish they addressed these …..
@@benjaminmuniz9075 I wish they would address
1- The Word and The God of John 1:1b were both God: two Gods
2- each The Word and The God were at: nearby, alongside; to: looking toward, going toward Reciprocally with the other
3- The Word had his own God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:6b
4- The Word emptied himself of his God’s attributes of which some are
His God’s material spirit body Philippians 2:7b ‘put on the form of a servant’
Eternal life John 5:26
Glory John 17:5 the glory he had with the Father (not the Father’s Isaiah 42:8)
God authority John 5:19
Knowledge
Hebrews 5:8 learned he obedience by the things that he suffered
John 8:28 as the Father has taught me I speak these things John 12:49-50, 14:9
Wisdom Luke 2:52 increased in wisdom
God abilities John 3:34-35 God gave Jesus the Spirit and all his things John 3:34-35 some of which include
Prophecy
Gifts of healings
Miracles
Discerning of spirits
Knowledge
Wisdom
Hospitality
Teaching
And there may be others …..
Which would conclude that as the Word, God, was made flesh the Word (God) was made a created mortal man so God (the Word) was with us, only not The God and not as God but a created mortal man so he had no God nature and a man nature because none of his brethren had a God nature and a man nature Hebrews 2;17a
I may never hear these addressed
Perkins said the Son pre-existed as the Logos, word... "Thought, plan, concept in the mind of God"...
Then became human on Earth... So in John 17, it's the human "aspect" speaking... Talking about having "glory" in heaven (as a thought/ concept/ plan?)...
Perkins, please explain how is that glorious to wish to change from a human to an idea? Creepy! (Perkins didn't answer what glory this was).
But then Perkins contradicts himself saying it was the whole person of Christ was praying...
There are several Scriptures that talk about God saving us and glorifying us in foreknowledge and before the foundation of the world. In 1 Peter 1:19-20, we read that Christ was foreordained and then was made manifest. In John 17:5, Jesus does not say “before I became a man.” He says “before the world was.” When that language is used, it refers to God’s foreknowledge. In John 17:24 Jesus uses the same wording. He’s asking God to give him what was his before the foundation of the world. He does not use language to suggest that he pre-existed at the Father’s side. John 17 does not prove the Trinity, far from it. It kind of disproves it because of the language that is used that is also used in several other Scriptural passages in the context of God’s foreknowledge.
Response to 1:16:20 Yes, we do find the the Son and the Father interacting in the Old Testament in Daniel 7:13-14
“13 I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [k]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [l]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed."
Daniel Sarmas Here is a portion of an article I wrote on this subject. Notice the words, “I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13).” Here we can clearly see that Daniel saw prophetic visions of one like the Son of man but he never said that he actually saw the Son of God before he was born. Otherwise Daniel would have written, “I saw the Son of Man” or “I saw the Son of God coming with the clouds of heaven.” Daniel clearly wrote that he saw night visions of “... one like the Son of man ...” because he did not actually see the Son of man before he was made in the womb of Mary. What Daniel saw was prophetic visions of the future Son of God being given dominion over all the earth during his millennial reign over the planet after his second coming. Therefore the prophet Daniel and the other Hebrew prophets only saw prophetic visions of the Son’s future glory before he actually came into existence through the virgin Mary. Notice also that the scripture says, "And THERE WAS GIVEN HIM dominion and glory ... that all people and nations, and languages should serve him.” When exactly was this dominion and glory actually given? Did Jesus actually reign over all nations of the earth during the lifetime of the prophet Daniel or was this a prophetic utterance of the future glory that Jesus would have when he will reign over all of the nations and peoples of the earth when he returns from heaven? Since God “... calls things that are not as though they were" (Romans 4:17 NIV), we can see how Jesus was already given glory in the mind and plan of God before he actually received that glory. This is that glory that Jesus spoke of when he said, "... the glory which I had with you before the world was.” John 17:5 The Bible plainly states when Jesus will actually be given dominion, glory, and a Kingdom in which he shall rule all people, nations, and languages of the earth. Revelation 12:5 “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Daniel 7:13-14 Not yet fulfilled. Revelation 11:15 “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ’The kingdoms of this world HAVE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord (One God) and of His Christ (One Man), and He shall reign forever and ever!” Hence, Daniel 7:13,14 will be fulfilled when Jesus returns! Many other scriptures prove that the Son of Man will come with the clouds of heaven to rule over all peoples and languages of the earth at the end of this age. Mark 13:@13 “But in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens." Revelation1 1:7 also proves that Jesus shall COME WITH CLOUDS when he returns to rule over all the earth in the near future: "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." Also notice that Jesus is spoken of as "The Son of MAN" in Daniel 7:13. The scriptures speak of Jesus as the Son of man because he was born from his mother Mary as the son of human ancestry. How could Jesus be the Son of man [the Son of mankind] without being born from a human parent if he had already existed as a Son of man prior to the incarnation? It would be impossible for Jesus to literally exist as the Son of Man prior to his birth because the very title "Son of Man" reference his physical birth from human kind. Daniel 7:13-14 is yet another example of Messianic prophecy where God thinks and speaks as if Christ were already given the kingdoms of the world before they were actually given to him. Just as Jesus was already spoken of as the “lamb slain from the creation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) before he was actually slain, so Jesus was already spoken of as having glory and dominion before he actually received it. Moreover, the scriptural evidence proves that the Son of Man could not have literally existed as the Son during the time of the prophet Daniel because God the Father said concerning His Son, “I WILLL BE to him a Father, and he SHALL be to me a Son (Hebrews 1:5).” Clearly the Father and Son relationship could not have occurred until after Jesus was begotten. EXAMPLES OF MESSIANIC PROPHECIES GIVEN AS IF THEY ALREADY OCCURREDPsalm 2:7 “... Yahweh has said unto me, You are my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN YOU.” Are we to believe that Jesus was actually begotten [born] when David wrote this psalm?Psalm 22:16 “They pierced (as if it already happened) my hands and my feet.” Was Jesus crucified twice?Psalm 41:9 “Even my close friend (Judas), whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.” “Has lifted!” Could Judas have actually betrayed Jesus in heaven before he was born?Psalm 118:21-22 “I will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my salvation (Jesus is God who became our salvation). The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone (Jesus is our chief cornerstone - Ephesians 2:20 - New American Standard Bible).” Could the Pharisees have actually rejected Jesus the Messiah one thousand years before they were born?Isaiah 53:1-5 “Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him ... He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain ... he took up our pain and bore our suffering ... But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities.” Notice how Isaiah spoke of Jesus as having already been despised, rejected, and pierced 1000 years before hand!
+Steven Ritchie I just saw your response now, one year later, LOL. What exactly is your point? I don't really get it. Are you a modalist?
@@stevenritchie8220god, please remove these AI bots
I am just beginning my journey with theology and I was wondering, at the end of the day, why does it matter whether we are trinitarian or unitarian? Does that change the gospel? Are other key doctrines changed because of it? Whether God is revealed in 3 persons or 1 person, aren't we all born sinners in need a savior? God being trinitarian or unitarian doesnt change how we are saved. does it? Someone enlighten me.
If you are just beginning your journey then yes, it does not matter if God is one person or 3. There are other things more important to focus on. This can wait.
Trinity is biblical, and orthodox.
Hey bro... hope you’re doing good on your walk man... i hope that seeing the division doesn’t steer you away from the Bible bro, I think a majority of us are just trying to know God personally and sometimes we can get ahead of ourselves to the point where we could sound rude but it’s all love ! But yeah I hope you’re doing well with your walk !
Don’t get caught up in all of this. Just focus on Christ Jesus, and what he’s done for us. Trust in Him and what he’s done for us on the cross even if you don’t completely understand everything else.
This is all a huge, divisive stumbling block that will do nothing more than push you away. Many blessings, brother, on your journey.
It matters a lot in how you worship, and ultimately how you understand salvation.
I have a feeling Roger Perkins is somehow actually a debate troll, like Nadir Ahmed.
Please, Christ. brothers do answer with the truth(before it is too late as life is short and time is flying)? this can save you with a lot of trouble in the hereafter. At least out of million Christ-followers who are being visited by Jesus every day, should not they ask Jesus next time that they should read 66 books or 72 books of Bible as Word of God? (Trinity Added in 1 John 5:7-8) And where is His Gospel instead according to Gospels? I hope if it is Jesus he will save his followers from long debates if he was GOD or son of God? I hope if it is Jesus and not the devil? Problem solved! I want a solution through Comforter or Holy Spirit per John 16:12-14. Please don't skip and decide before it is too late as we are gifted life once from Almighty God. Why are those lands being populated by Muslims ever since where JESUS Christ had been dwelling? Just click these short clips, please
ruclips.net/video/APEi-a6Bp3M/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/A11RZ06bb3Q/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/IRVKWugcoJQ/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/7ubxU5EX5_A/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/NoAeTMjwmK8/видео.html
Never Knew You Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?” Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” Matthew. 7:21who are showing miracles in Jesus name ( with the belief he is Almighty God)? ordinary Christians????? This cloth free fruit is certainly not that fruit whom Jesus would have wished for!!!!!
Brother, If you have a brain then you should believe in Church or JESUS?
Matthew 12:40--Jesus replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40: For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jonah was alive in the belly of fish so how come we believe Jesus was dead for 3 days ????? ask your priest whom you should believe, the words of Jesus (PBUH) or the words of Church????? "Seek the Truth and the Truth shall set you free"
@@TheMasood4724 hello brother are an ex-Muslim?
If you have this mindset watching it, it makes listening to Perkins a little more bearable.
Is Perkins doing any other debates or is he still haunted by this one?
Ummm, Perkins has openly challenged Dr. Edward Dalcour & others...& they keep dodging him.
Besides, nothing to be "haunted" by in his debate w. White above....unless you're still farcically defending White's open confession of a "god" (note the little *g*) who exists as *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*. LOL! You tritheists just never get it.
Who are you again? Lol
So the answer is no on the debates? Follow up question, is Perkins writing any books? You seem to know a lot about him.
DeJai Jones LOL - umm, he's not debating now because all the reputable tritheists keep dodging him.
I already said that...the answer is no lmbo!!!
I'm not sure what to make of the point at 1:16:10 . He says, "they had no interaction whatsoever", and then right after that he says, "one Yaweh was on the earth, calling down fire from another Yaweh in heaven." I don't follow the argument in favor of modalism at this part. Can anyone help?
No scripture proves that one of the three angels which appeared to Abraham on the plain of Mamre was actually Yahweh Himself. Yahweh is the only true God the Father who used angelic messengers in the Hebrew scriptures to manifest Himself. The Book of Jasher is mentioned in Joshua 10:12-13 when Lord stopped the sun in the middle of the day during the battle of Beth Horon. It is also mentioned in 2 Samuel 1:18-27 as containing the Song or Lament of the Bow, that mournful funeral song which David composed at the time of the death of Saul and Jonathan. Since inspired scripture itself gives credence to the authenticity of this book, then surely we can also read it as a reliable source.
JASHER 18:4 And Yahweh appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him, and he was sitting at the door of the tent, and he lifted his eyes and saw, and lo three men were coming from a distance, and he rose up and ran to meet them, and he bowed down to them and brought them into his house.
Notice how the book of Jasher states that Yahweh sent three angels and that only two of the angels went to Sodom. Here the book of Jasher says that all three of the men were angels. Both the Bible and the book of Jasher says that these men were angels. Trinitarians allege that one of the men was literally Yahweh God Himself or a pre-incarnate Son of God because God had spoken through one of the angels.
A PRE-INCARNATE SON OF GOD COULD NOT HAVE SPOKEN TO ABRAHAM OR TO ANY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT ISRAELITES BECAUSE HEBREWS 1:1 PROVES THAT THE SON DID NOT SPEAK UNTO THE ISRAELITE FATHERS UNTIL “THESE LAST DAYS.”
Hebrews 1:1 “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son …”
Therefore we can conclude that all angelic messengers in the Hebrew Scriptures were not pre-incarnate appearances of God or Christ.
So what happened in Genesis 19:24? "Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven."
This verse indicates that the omnipresent Spirit of Yahweh "fills heaven and earth (Jeremiah 23:24)." The Spirit and power of Yahweh can move and act both in heaven and on earth at the same time. In this light we can understand how Jesus is the full incarnation of the only true God the Father. God the Father never had to leave heaven to manifest Himself in Jesus. This is the teaching of the Modalistic Monarchians who always comprised the majority of believers in the early days of Christianity. Numerous free e books at apostolicchristianfaith.com
ritchiesteven
Ok. Here's the ESV on that:
Genesis 18:1-2 "And the LORD [Hebrew: Jehova] appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth."
There's really no reason not to think that the Lord was one of the three men. If you're going to argue, "well, it doesn't technically say, 'He looked up and saw the Lord with some men'", I would respond saying that it just doesn't make sense to read this chapter any other way. See Gen 18:16-20 for another example of the context clearly pointing to the Lord being a part of the group there.
On the same hand, the "it doesn't technically say..." argument works as well, and better, when applied to Hebrews 1:1. "It doesn't technically say that His Son never spoke to us prior to Hebrews 1:1". There.
Plus, lets look at the context of Hebrews 1:1... what is the point Paul was trying to make? Who was he talking to? Hebrews was written for the Jewish Christians who were being persecuted by the Old Covenant Jews and therefore being tempted to return to "the Law", which cannot save (see the rest of Hebrews to support this; you can also Google "Why was Hebrews written?") . When you look at it that way, it makes sense for Paul to make that distinction and to affirm that God is speaking to us by His son, who is Jesus.
It does not mean that Jesus did not exist, or did not speak, prior to the incarnation. To read it that way would be to ignore the context.
Now, as for Jesus never speaking in the OT ever, I would say that John 12:41 (and context, see Isaiah 6, quoted by John 12:40) clearly indicates that Jesus was present in the OT.
Interesting that you're reaching out to apocrypha to prove your first point.
Now, as for it being a reliable source about the nature of God -- it's not. When you're arguing things about the nature of God, the safe thing to do, in general, is to assume that the canon is correct when it conflicts with non-canon. Anyway, props for being well read in things other than Hebrews.
Zac Slade I quoted Jasher only because inspired scripture itself gives it credence. Here are some of my notes on the subject.
ANGELS ARE MESSENGERS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD HIMSELF.
ANGELIC APPEARANCES BROUGHT THE PRESENCE, POWER, AND MESSAGES OF GOD BUT THE ANGELIC MESSENGERS WERE NOT GOD HIMSELF.
AN ANGEL WRESTLED WITH JACOB IN Genesis 32:24
“Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.
JACOB CALLED THE NAME OF THE PLACE WHERE THE ANGEL WRESTLED WITH HIM PENIEL IN Genesis 32:30
“So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: ‘for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.’”
YET Hosea 12:3-4 PROVES THAT THE ANGEL WAS NOT GOD.
“He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yes, he had power over the angel, and prevailed.”
HOW COULD JACOB SAY HE SAW GOD FACE TO FACE WHEN HE SAW AN ANGEL?
In the ancient Semitic “law of agency,” “A PERSON’S AGENT IS REGARDED AS THE PERSON HIMSELF (Ned. 72b; Kidd. 41b).”
The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Adama Books, New York, NY, 1986, pg.15 states:
“The angels that spoke the law were Yahweh's agents or representatives. As such, they had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to seemingly appropriate His name as in Exodus 20:2; ‘I am Yahweh thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.’ They were speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted them to say.”
Exodus 23:20-23
"Behold, I send an Angel before you, to keep you in the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if you shall indeed obey his voice (THE ANGEL’S VOICE), and DO ALL THAT I SPEAK (GOD’S SPOKEN MESSAGES); then I will be an enemy unto your enemies, and an adversary unto your adversaries. For my angel shall go before you, and bring you in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off."
THE ANGEL WAS THE ACTUAL MESSENGER SPEAKING TO THE ISRAELITES WHILE YAHWEH GOD HIMSELF COMMANDED THE ANGEL TO DELIEVER “ALL THAT I SPEAK.”
Genesis.22:10-12 - "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of Yahweh called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not your hand upon the lad, neither do anything unto him: for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son FROM ME."
Notice how we can detect the angel’s voice when he said, “now I know that you fear God.” Yet we can also see that the message of God Himself spoke through the angel when he said, “seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son FROM ME.”
Genesis.31:10-13 - "And it came to pass at the time that the cattle conceived, that I lifted up mine eyes, and saw in a dream, and, behold, the rams which leaped upon the cattle were ringstraked, speckled, and grisled. And the angel of God spoke unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now your eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I HAVE SEEN all that Laban does unto you. I AM THE GOD of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar, and where you vowed a vow UNTO ME: now arise, get you out from this land, and return unto the land of your kindred."
Judges.2:1,4 - "And an angel of Yahweh came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I MADE YOU TO GO UP OUT OF EGYPT, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break MY COVENANT with you … And it came to pass, when the angel of Yahweh spoke these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept."
NOTICE HOW THE ANGELS OF YAHWEH SPOKE AS YAHWEH GOD HIMSELF BUT THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES PROVE THAT THE ANGELS ARE NOT YAHWEH.
2 Samuel 24:16
“And when the angel stretched out his hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, YAHWEH relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, ‘It is enough; now restrain your hand.’”
HERE YAHWEH GOD HIMSELF RESTRAINED THE HAND OF HIS DESTROYING ANGEL.
WHEREFORE, GOD SPEAKS TO HIS ANGELS AND THEY OBEY HIS COMMANDS AND DELIVER HIS MESSAGES.
Zac Slade The Son of God/Son of Man clearly refers to the man Christ Jesus who was born of a woman (Galatians 4:4). Jesus is called the Son of Man because he was born from mankind (Mary).
How did the prophet Isaiah see Christ’s GLORY? Isaiah not only saw Christ's glory in Isaiah chapter six but he saw Christ's future glory throughout his prophetic revelations.
He saw CHRIST’S FUTURE MINISTRY OF MIRACLES - Isaiah 33:5
He saw CHRIST’S FUTURE VIRGIN BIRTH AS IMMANUEL, GOD WITH US - Isaiah 7:14
He saw CHRIST’S FUTURE NAME being called the same Name as “THE MIGHTY GOD” and “Everlasting Father.” Isaiah 9:6
He saw CHRIST’S FUTURE ASCENSION TO THE EVERLASTING THRONE - Isaiah 9:7.
1 Chronicles 29:23 calls that THRONE, “THE THRONE OF YAHWEH.”
John 12:37-41
“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled which he spoke, ‘Lord who has believed our report? And to whom has the ARM OF YAHWEH been revealed?’ Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, ‘He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart: that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. THESE THINGS SAID ISAIAH, WHEN HE SAW HIS GLORY, AND SPOKE OF HIM.” John 12:37-41
Isaiah saw and spoke of Christ’s glory throughout the book of Isaiah. That is why John quoted Isaiah 53:1, “Who has believed our report? And to whom has the ARM OF YAHWEH been revealed?”
Daniel also saw Christ’s FUTURE GLORY: "And to Him was given dominion, GLORY and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.” Daniel 7:14
1 Peter 1:11 “… the prophets … predicted the sufferings of Christ and THE GLORY THAT WOULD FOLLOW.”
John 2:11 "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and MANIFESTED HIS GLORY; and his disciples believed in him."
When we compare scripture with scripture we find that Jesus was speaking about his predestined GLORY which he already had with the Father “before the world was” actually created (John 17:1-5). No Trinitarian can find a single scripture which proves that the Son of God actually experienced GLORY in the Hebrew Scriptures unless they want to acknowledge that the Son had experienced GLORY as Yahweh God the Father prior to God the Father's incarnation in Christ Jesus.
Zac Slade Modalism and Trinitarianism are the same thing, so they're really debating nothing. All they're debating is if God is three persons or three its. Because modalism denies there are 3 divine individuals only because it rejects the idea of individuals or persons: its a Trinity or ITS instead of persons. Same false doctrine, different terminology. The truth is in 1 Cor 8:6, namely the Father alone is God and Jesus is Lord or King Messiah, not God.
Dr. James White walked all over him. Perkins sounded ridiculous.
+preto shohmoofc guy
LOL - you mean James White, the guy who unashamedly confessed to worshiping a God who exists as *"3 divine individuals, each with their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*, talked about chicken feathers when Perkins asked him about the ramifications of the anthropological terminology applied to YHVH, outright stated that no one has known the supposed "true" God (i.e., the "Trinity") for the past 2,000 yrs. of human history...& about 10 other absurd assertions....."Ridiculous" indeed!
LOL - Yea', that's really "walking all over" Perkins...what debate were you watching again?
Perhaps you should visit Perkins' Blog where he tears "Trinitarianism" to shreds....where it rightly belongs: *apostolicacademics.com*
Roger Perkins "3 divine individuals, each with their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"
Yes, that's the Trinity. What's your point again?
+Roger Perkins "the ramifications of the anthropological terminology applied to YHVH, outright stated that no one has known the supposed "true" God (i.e., the "Trinity") for the past 2,000 yrs. of human history.."
This argument fails because the Jews ALSO didn't know that God went by the title "Son" either. Never mind God coming to earth and that the death on a cross for sin of mankind ALSO was unknown to the jews as well.
So that was a big fat fail.
I thought that the Jews knew whom they worshipped?
preto shohmoofc guy
LOL - Welcome to the wacky world of Polytheism masquerading as "Monotheism."
Poor Moses, even though he knew YHVH "face to face" - he was deceived about His very identity & need the Trinnies to "educate" him....ROTFLMHO!
Yea', the Jews did "know" who they worship....& they have never worshiped a "Trinity!" That was exactly Perkins' point...LOL!
Thank God He led me out of "Trinitarianism" into biblical Christianity!!
Roger Perkins Your nervous giggle does not help you here.
A). In Ex 33:11, Moses was seeing the pre-incarnate Christ. This is why he could see him face to face.
In Ex 33:20 he was beholding the Father which whom he couldn't see face to face for no man has seen the Father and has lived. (John 1:18; 6:46).
Your dilemma is, how on earth could he speak to Yahweh to his face and live and yet not be allowed to see his face and live?
B). As far as the other position. You didn't refute me. Nor did you answer me.
The Jews had no idea that God was going to come down and die for their sins. Neither did they worship "God the Son".
What?!? I thought they knew the God they worshipped?
The Jews crucified Christ because He claimed oneness and separateness with the Father. Jewish leaders could not believe God had a Son.
Roger Perkins lost this debate because of his "launching pad." He started with a faulty proposition: That God is one based on the Old Testament. The Old Testament did not fully reveal everything. It was a "shadow of things to come." Putting the Old with the New explains the complete truth. I would also disagree that God is personally singular in the Old Testament (Genesis 1:1,2; Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; Genesis 19:24; Deuteronomy 6:4 - God is Elohim; and Isaiah 6:3 just to name a few). Perkins hangs his hat on pronouns, as if those reveal the full theological truth. Perkins has very shaky hermeneutics.
I forgot to mention that Perkins doesn't address context which gives meaning and is a proper hermeneutic.
Ummm, Perkins "lost" nothing. White lost this debate with his open confession to worshiping a "god" who supposedly exists as *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*. How kookie - & you're actually endorsing such blatant polytheism (quite revealing about your own "hermeneutics").
Jesus is referred to as "Elohim" in Psalm 45, as quoted in Hebrews 1.8. Is the Son of God now a "plurality of divine persons"? LOL - you Trinnies just never learn. It is the Trinnies who have a very shaky doctrine.
And, Perkins was 100% right in insisting on the normative force of a *SINGLE-PERSON-pronoun* - which was White's identical usage in the NT. Pssst, you Trinnies are not free to appeal to single pronouns in the NT - then explain away the same in the OT (or, make up your own supposed "hermeneutics"). Back to the drawing board.
Perkie has IQ problems or worse...... purposely trying to deceive and keep the bank accounts fat by deception. They are stuck trying to do so through grammar games. He has been schooled many times to what a polytheist is. It's like he just doesn't care. :>)
You are correct Michael. God is Elohim. It is a singular name and it is plural. God the Father's personal name is Elohim. Those who are of His Family are Elohim as we all bear His name. Ephesians 3 :15...................14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Can a trinitarian please explain this verse? 1 Timothy 3:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
+alberto calderon
I'm not a trinitarian, but originally, 1 Tim 3:16 did not state "God" but instead, "he who was manifest in the flesh" and this is Jesus, sent *BY* God.
GOD *NEVER* needed *justified!*
And who is that He?
alberto calderon
I said, above; it is Jesus.
Blessings
It is easily understood when you recognize that “God” is Father, Son & Spirit and context must determine which is being referred to.
Unfortunately, most people (by default) assume God is ALWAYS the Father (alone).
Dr White is BRILLIANT.no confusion/no nonsense
Hmm, was that when White was conceding that God exists as *3 divine individuals, each with their SEPARATE center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals*?? Yea'...real "brilliance"...LOL.
Roger Perkins-In other words GOD & JESUS cant have individuality ? that what I get from you-sounds like there are some things that are impossible for GOD-how so ?
karlos6628
It is impossible for God to lie! He used a single-person-pronoun when He said that there was absolutely no other deity besides Him! Dis you not hear Perkins in this debate? Here, lemme' make it easy for ya'...How many "persons" does a SINGLE-PERSON-PRONOUN naturally communicate...3 or 1:__________?
@@rogerperkins8959 I guess we didn't have the true teaching of who God is until your Oneness Pentecostal crap came out. I guess God didn't really build his church until the Oneness people got here. Look at the early church look at the apostles every one of them trinitarians. You're a heretic and you are cursed
When Jesus prayed he said make the one as we are one. The father, son, and Holy Spirit is one unit God. God want us to be one body in Christ, one unit.
one unit means one purpose
Right!
What any don't understand is that God is One.
One as a individual person/Spirit. And God is also a Unit...Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
As a Unit, that simply means that they all share in what makes them Deity.
However, the Father is the One True authority and, therefore, God.
John 17:3
While The Word & Spirit are Deity, possessing the same essence/substance as the Father.
Lovely how James White tears Perkins apart in the cross examination. Lovely work.
Yea', the same cross examination where White openly confessed to Perkins that he worships a "God" who (fictitiously) exists as "3 divine individuals, each w. their own SEPARATE CENTERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS apart from the other other 2 divine individuals"? LOL, were we watching the same cross exam? You tritheists are all the same.
James White says >> *3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness?*
White won the debate with this confession??
Sounds like proof of *tritheism* which James White championed.
James Morris AMEN! That's it! James White has championed trithiesm! Now all he needs to do is change the name of his book from "The Forgotten Trinity" to "The Forgotten Three Gods".
Lorel Latorilla for my trinitarian bros.
Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
Isaiah 46:9 NKJV
who was this speaking about?? THE (FATHERRR)
‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
Deuteronomy 32:39 NKJV
who is that again?? THE FATHERRRR!!!!...
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord , “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord , And besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the Lord , “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” Thus says the Lord , your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives- The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. I am the Lord , your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.”
Isaiah 43:10-15 NKJV
again is the Fatherr!!!!
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 NKJV
whoo???!!!! The FATHERRRR!!!!
Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.” Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.” And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
John 8:14-15, 17-19, 23-24, 28 NKJV
whoooo??? THE FATHERRRRR
Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 8:54-55, 58 NKJV
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
John 14:8-11, 28 NKJV
whoooo whooo whoo is Jesus class??? THE FATHERRR........
COME ON PEOPLE IT CANT GET MORE CLEARLY THAN THIS...... AND IF YOU NEED MORE EVIDENCE I EM MORE THAN HAPPY TO SHOW YOU. it really shows how jesus is the father and the father is jesus. thats the father and son relationship not that jesus was like" daddy daddy" ....
Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
Deuteronomy 32:39 NKJV
WAS God speaking to another separate individual when he said " i, even i, am He?
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord , “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord , And besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the Lord , “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” Thus says the Lord , your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives- The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. I am the Lord , your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.”
Isaiah 43:10-15 NKJV
That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He.
Another person?? ummm nooo..
“that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He;
Another separate individual? umm nooo and if you look close it is the same thing when jesus said "before Abraham was born i AM" . beautiful scriptures.
God bless ..
@Roger Perkins first off, if you’re the same person as the Roger Perkins in this debate, then that’s pretty pathetic that you’re so self-conscious of your performance that you come on here to try to continue the debate with RUclips commenters.
Also, sorry buddy, but the Bible teaches one God revealed in three distinct persons. Otherwise your position of modalism is what employs very unnatural readings of the text. For instance, how is it that Jesus has a will separate from the Father’s? How is it Jesus prays to the Father and SHARES his glory before the incarnation? Was he just sharing it with himself? To hold to modalism is to read the text in a very unnatural way.
It’s ironic that you’d say singular pronouns naturally implies one person, yet you ignore that Jesus talking to the Father would imply more than one person.
49:26 Sir with the white shirt, Christ already exist in the old Testament 1 Peter 3:17-19 if not how did he go down to earth to preach in the days of Noah?
wow ...James white is like the guy behind the pack that lurks in the back and comes in for the kill the last 50meters lol.....geez this oneness guy is one angry individual
LOL - White openly confessed in this debate to worshiping *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*. Yea', a real "kill" for you tritheists. LOL.
Gee..how gracious of you. Keep galatians alive......arrogant and pompous.
Not individuals.....person....personhood..you also screwed up when speaking of preeminence. Now, I need to dream of sound doctrine and cute puppies.
But hey..go Janice sjostrand.
roland thompson Umm, it's real simple, if you tritheists can dish out pomp & insults - be fully prepared to take it. You want respect learn to give it - otherwise we'll roll anyway you wish...your call.
But, keep making excuses for White's absurd claim to worshiping *separate divine individuals w. separate centers of consciousness*.
Shall we discuss his own pvt. "translation" of Phil. 2.6 - which he failed to inform the audience was *HIS OWN* personal rendering? Lemme' guess, he's off the hook for that one also - LOL (all the while you hold Perkins to the line).
Typical Trinnie.
Yea', go dream about your false doctrines. Goodness, you Trinnes are not even biblically born again via Acts 2.38/Jn. 3.5. Put your Trinnie eraser & decoder ring down - these verses will still mean what they say when you're finished explaining them away. LOL.
Listening to Mr. Perkins stresses me out...
But it is so necessary to deal with this issue. The Athanasian Creed is very helpful.
It’s because Roger wasn’t debating, he was preaching. Dr. White won this debate with his opening remarks.
Mr. Perkins "debate" is likened to a bunch of scattered marbles. It is not intellectually derived. It has no synthesis at all.
@@prayersquad3391, no consistency either.
The creeds weren't a tradition of the fathers. They were rather an affirmation of the Biblical doctrine of God as known by Moses and Abraham who BOTH knew the preincarnate Jesus Christ who walked with them and and Moses wrote of.
@@Logos-Nomos , precisely. The Bible is not a theological textbook that lays out the full throated corpus of God's Truth in point by point encyclopedic fashion, but, rather, is the God breathed revelation of His will through the individualized talents, styles, focusses and contexts of many different writers chosen over more than 1500 years. A Truth like the Trinity was affirmed, classified and elucidated at Nicea because Scripture clearly teaches it, not in point by point fashion, but with clear affirmations, in numerous places, of both the humanity of Christ as well as His deity, of both the Father's deity and the Holy Spirit's as well. Just because the text does not use the term Trinity, does not mean the term is not allowable to describe what the text simultaneously teaches about each of the Devine persons in the Godhead. It's childish ignorance and tantrum throwing to suggest otherwise.
Good job Dr. White. I appreciate your truth, your patience, and your maturity in the faith.
Josh Drake, if Jesus existed before his birth, did he "pop" cease to exist during g a split second in time while the Holy Spirit place the divine seed in Mary's womb? And did the Holy Spirit become his daddy? No, my friend, you are following false Trinitarian prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing.
@@davidstanton8526 GOD JESUS is ALWAYS OMNIPRESENT GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
REPENT!
@davidstanton8526 would understanding that changing your opinion?
Let US make man in OUR image. Please explain this one oneness believers.
V27 God made man in his image, after his likeness made he man
The trinity doctrine contradicts the doctrine of God
@@Post-Trib so do you just negate the verse I stated? The doctrine of Trinity is well proven. Another scripture there are three who bare witness in heaven. Trinity isn't something just made up. Both Hebrew and Greek languages agree GOD is a plural. Elohim is plural. Also Modelism was deemed a heresy long ago my friend hundreds of years ago. Also in Genesis when Sodom and Gomorrah are being destroyed it says that The Lord called down fire from The Lord in heaven. When. JESUS said GOD is one he used a word that is one plural like a union. JESUS told them to baptize in the name of The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit. CHRIST preached Trinity.
@vitoasaro4663 your opinion of v26 contradicts v27 obviously.
So, who coined the word trinitas or trinity and who formulated the doctrine of the trinity?
@@Post-Trib It's blatantly what The Bible teaches. All throughout the Bible. Jewish scholars also agree on the Hebrew. The one is plural
@vitoasaro4663 too scared or too ignorant to know the answer??
when Genesis says let US make man in OUR image was there ONE orThree persons?? very confusing
+maxwell williams John 17:1-5 " When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth,having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father,glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
To my understanding, Jesus co-existed with the Father before the world was made, so I think God was talking to Jesus. Re-read verse 5, Jesus says to "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
I am also very confused whether to believe the oneness or trinity doctrine...they both make very well arguments...sigh, this is what happens when the bible is translated over and over again.
Father and son were yoked together or were inseparable in the Logos....or the Son dwelled in the bosom of the Father
To say that Genesis 1:26 refers to a Trinity completely ignores the ancient Near Eastern background of this text. In Scripture, “us” always refers to the heavenly host or the divine council. In Genesis 1:26 they “make,” but then in verse 27 only God himself “created.”
@@krayziejerry In John 17 Jesus uses language that is elsewhere used of God’s foreknowledge, “before the world was,” in verse 5 and verse 24. He doesn’t say “before I became a man.” He goes back to before the world was. This denotes God’s foreknowledge in several verses, not just referring to Christ, but to us too.
Where do you get foreknowledge from?
Dr James White did a incredible job defending the trinity. God is glorified weather we like it or not. All things are for the glory of God. 1 being 3 persons all glory to ( God ) the Father the Son the Holy Spirit. 🙏🏻 #monotheistic #Trinitarian
Made-up terms and definitions for a made-up god - perfect!
That's not the God of the bible. The one God took on him a human existence, hence he became the Son of God, and who now resides in believers as the Holy Spirit.
Monotheism and trinitarianism In the first place is contradictory.
Man is created in the image of God as a soul conscience and spirit, life and lives in a body as one person with a name, Jesus Christ is the exact representation and image of almighty God, as the power/eternal Spirit of life and the wisdom/divine conscienceness of God and His body is the glorified lamb who sits on the throne of God and created all things by Him for Him and nothing can exist without Jesus christ 🙏 ❤
Why cant we just understand that the Godhead is just like man. One body, soul, and spirit. We as humans have three wills that war with each other but the Godhead is in perfect unity. Jesus is the express image of the invisible. He has all the fullness of the Godhead. However there is obviously three in one. The question is three what? Do we not wrestle between spirit soul and flesh.
Because that's an errant understanding of the Triune God. The Bible clearly tells us that God is one in being. It also reveals three persons that share this divine being, specifically the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These persons have distinct wills and minds, characteristics that are inherent to personhood; they interact as individual persons. There is no earthly analogy to God. He is not like us. Humans are one in being and one in person with one will and with one mind.
Btw, Colossians 2:9, a verse that attempts to support the heretical Oneness position, was a message from Paul to the Church, specifically dealing with Gnosticism. Gnostics believed that Jesus had no physical body but that it just appeared so, clearly a blatant heresy. If the physical body that was the Son's human vessel contained the fullness of deity the way Oneness Pentecostals understand, God would not be omniscient, for he would be nowhere else but in that physical body. This is clearly a problem and a laughable yet sad twisting of Scripture. This is just another example of how we need to study the Bible in its context so that we don't rip texts from their context, a process that produces prooftexts.
because 3 wills denotes 3 seperate persons which contradict the old testament completely and the commandments
@@dabish2888 inaccurate. Gnostics believed that Jesus as you correctly stated was not a physical body but that has nothing to do with oneness. We believe that Jesus is born of God as a man.. " & it is for this reason he shall be called the Son of God" it is only heretical because the trinity which became widespread had outnumbered the Christians that were then killed in the Christian Inquisition in 90 AD
@@johnnysantos3997 you are inaccurate. Btw, don't bother arguing the heretical oneness position to me. I was in the cult for years. I know their tired, indefensible arguments. Do not feel invited to continue with me. I wasn't addressing you, and again I know the arguments from both sides. I pray that God reveals his nature to you as well. That is all.
@@dabish2888 Oneness people don’t do the best job of explaining their position. Most of them believe that the name of God the Father is Jesus. I believe that there is a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus. But not the type of distinction you may believe in.
@31:10 It's sad to see such an appeal to the status quo when just earlier they declared "solely scripture." At one time the Protestants were going up against the status quo of the Catholic Church, or has this already been forgotten?
Jesus likewise did not care about the status quo. He said, "it is written" countless times. Shouldn't we only care about what God teaches in his Word and not what humans teach?
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. (John 17:11 NIV)
More unity talk
Brother James’ opening statement just comes in like the absolutely comprehensive, devastating theological haymaker that it is!!! Wow!!!
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself fully known to them. (Exodus 6:3 NIV)
What does it mean
@@yonatangenene2037 you are 5 years late. Catch up.
@@yonatangenene2037 it means Gods full revelation was complete through Jesus Christ.
Question to the Oneness believers - Considering Jesus was and is JUST ONE PERSON .... What did Jesus mean when he said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."? I'd like a straightforward scripture answer please. Thanks. John 8:58
+Follower of Truth My lands - this passage has Jesus clearly identifying Himself as the One OT Yahveh (I AM). Good grief - how blind can you Trinnies be? Mind-boggling.
Let's keep this friendly. As you'd like me to understand the Oneness beliefs it's only right that you explain it to me in a Godly manner. Anyway, question. You said when Jesus said this (above statement) he was the One OT Yahveh (I AM). So when he was saying this, where was the man-Jesus that was born in Bethlehem at this same time as Yahveh spoke these words? I hope you understand my question, i.e. if this was God speaking, where was Jesus at this time. And remember, keep it friendly.
Another separate question. Jesus said in John 6:46 ""Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father". My question is as Jesus spoke these words, WHEN did he SEE the Father? At what point in time?
Follower of Truth
We will "keep it friendly" when you cease w. the smug comments about Oneness believers & Perkins supposedly not being able to answer White's questions. He answered every-single question White asked him. Now White? Not so much. Practice what you require of us Oneness & we'll get much further. But as long as you dish it out it will be returned. Goodness, we don't even believe Trinitarians are biblical Christians & you're attacking us??
Your follow-up question is nonsensical to me, honestly. I already answered your question about John 8.58? Great Oneness passage. Jesus identifies Himslef as the one OT YHVH in this passage. I don't get your point? Jesus spoke as God enfleshed?
Further, you asked, "At what point in time did Jesus SEE the Father?"
You misunderstand the verb translated "see" (ἑώρακεν). The verb means "to perceive" according to lexicographers like UBS, BDAG, ALGNT, etc. (shall I quote them?).
Or, are you willing to say there's a bodily separation in the "Trinity" so that each "divine member" can watch one another act & function as God? Clearly your interpretation is impregnated w. Trinitarian presupposition.
Now, since I've answered your question (for the second time), please answer mine:
How can Jesus be the supposed "2nd of 3 divine members in the Godhead" when the Bible clearly declares that in Christ "dwells *ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD* bodily"? How many "divine persons" would this teach in the Godhead, 3 or 1?
And, since you asked me 2 questions above, here's another one:
How can Jesus be someone other than the Father when He responded to a question about the location of the Father w. the words, "Have I been w. you all this time and you still don't know me?" (John 14.9). Does His response make any sense at all if He's someone other than the One Philip asked to see?
+Roger Perkins
Good luck getting the trinitarians to answer any questions. All they do is ask, ask ....and ask.....if only they would see the questions and answer them they might just see how tritheistic their doctrine is.
All Mr Perkins has done here is to put on public display his ignorance of NT Gk.
Peter Hodge And all Mr. White has done is put on public display the fact that Trinnies are truly Tritheist masquerading as "Monotheist."
White unashamedly told the world in this debate that he worships a God who exists as, "*3 divine individuals, each with their own separate center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals*"...Eeek!
Also, this debate is almost 4 years old now - & Perkins did indeed make many very valid points from the Greek (while White abused the same).
Roger Perkins Some silly Greeks obfuscated Christ's true gospel. I wouldn't speak the "G" word so loudly Roger.
Hadn't I already shown you in scripture how the Godhead are one?? It is not one Person showing up in three different forms nor is it three Persons who are some other unimaginable Persons referred to as a "He" like the trinnie likes to suppose.
LOL..... I'm sure I showed you biblically how They are one. :) :)
truthseeker staats LOL - You again? Does ol' Briggie & Josie know you're off of "Kolob" again?? LOL!
A "Mormon" attempting to "show" *anyone anything* from the "Bible" is about like Barney Fife attempting to "show" the world's greatest snipers how to shoot a gun...ROTFLMHO!
You're always good for a laugh! Run along now lil' Nephi to search for them-thar' ever-elusive "golden plates" ;) - LOL.
Roger Perkins The manifold mystery to the nature of the Godhead has been revealed since Paul. Don't you think you are a bit behind the times Perkie??
The fellowship(oneness) of those three wonderful Persons of deity is *PURPOSE*. That PURPOSE is to be GOD. To be GOD is to be the Family *called GOD* . Didn't you know that we all bear his name??
You are not very good at your job. Then again...... neither is White. :) :)
LOL... like two eunuchs fighting over a centre fold picture........
truthseeker staats
LOL - Typical "Mormon" blubber.....Selah!
Mr. Perkins seems very angry, I guess he can't handle the truth which is sad, I truly pray for him.
Ummm, you need to pray for Trinitarians that they would obey the Gospel & the biblical Christ via Acts 2.38/Mark 12.29/Col. 2.9!
Roger Perkins lol study in context. If you think baptism is necessary for salvation then nothing else you say is valid
Just the largest debate on assumptions I've ever heard.
Nice try perkins but this says...
A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. (Galatians 3:20 NIV)
U took this out of context
Within the NT context, not necessarily so. The man Jesus is the mediatory between God and man, where the biblical use of God in 1Tim 2:5, references the one and only God, and not only merely the Father. It turns out that because man fell from fellowship from the one God, then in order for the NT mediator to reconcile man to God, he must fulfil both roles of being the God to whom man is reconciled, and be the reconciler or mediator in the same person, otherwise who reconciled man to the trinitarian God the Son, or, it is that man fell from fellowship with only the Father, in Eden?
@@davidgreen8574
Hmm only the father in Eden you say? According to John 1:18 no one has seen the father, Jesus is the one that makes him known. Are you sure it was the “father” in Eden? If so how do you explain this verse?
“No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”
John 1:18 NIV
@@DeJai237 within your comment is an admittance that God was seen. You mentioned the only Son, who is himself God, has revealed him. So Jesus is God, and he was seen, so it therefore concludes that God can be seen. But seeing God is relative, and never absolute, for God by nature, cannot be seen. Jesus is God, therefore Jesus by nature, cannot be seen. But Jesus WAS seen, but so was the one God in the OT. Seeing and not seeing God, are relatives. Moses on one hand, saw God, in terms of seeing his backparts. Moses on the other hand, never saw God, in terms of seeing his face or full glory. So the fact that God was seen by Adam, doesn't mean it was not the Father who was seen. If you use Jn 1:18, which you have done, to prove that God cannot be seen, period, then because Jesus is God, then Jesus also cannot be seen, period. We have to be consistent. Is it that there is an unseen God and a seen God? That becomes two Gods, one seen and the other unseen. Now the one in Eden, is the only God Adam knew, who was his Father in creation. By nature he is the invisible God, but the invisible God CAN visibly reveal himself while remaining invisible by his nature. The Father was seen, as in Jn 14:9, and yet Jesus as to his divine nature, was never seen, as in 1Tim 6:14-16. In his millenial reign the entire world will see him. Yet verse 16 says of him, “who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light, which NO MAN can see NOR HATH SEEN“. So even when men see him in his visible reign on earth, there is a side of him which essentially remains invisible, the glory of which if any man sees, he cannot live.
@@davidgreen835 one problem. The one who is not seen is the father, not Jesus. The father has never been seen, only by the son because he is also God. “Complete unity” you didn’t even know the father existed until Jesus made him known. The Old Testament God is Jesus. Again, Jesus makes the father known. I don’t know how you missed that. Jesus was Seen, the father was not. That’s why the scripture made a distinction. “No one has seen God at any time except the son.” Only the son has seen God. I mean I’m just repeating myself at this point.
Jesus himself said the Father has been seen. Jn 14:9. The answer to your repeat, lies in my response to you, before this response. You may go over it.
I'd like to hear a debate on why pentecostals think beards are evil.
👀
Got to lose the 70% stigma because maybe he will only receive 70% of Heaven. I pray Perkins & all of us, as predestined & selected by God since the beginning of time, enjoy heaven by faith in Jesus for God the Father's grace, not by works.
Roger was out of his league, seemed angry, and made the oneness position look so sad
I agree. White is more of a Bernard apologist.
Notice how James answers the questions straight up and when Roger answered - well he didn't really answer ! Because he cannot get round what is absolutely CLEAR in scripture.
+Follower of Truth Ummm, the Trinity is "absolutely 'CLEAR' in Scripture"??? Say what? What Bible are you reading? Perhaps you can point us to this "clear" passage:__________?
Let's review to help you out of your delusion:
White used his own personal translation of Phil. 2 w.out informing the audience this was how own rendering (completely unsupported in the Greek text BTW).
White started talking about "chickens" when pressed by Perkins on the anthropological ramifications of God's numerical identity - a clear dodge.
Here's the kicker: White openly confessed to worshiping *"3 divine individuals, each w. their own separate centers of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals"*! {I think it's amusing to watch Trinnies ignore White's confession here since it's so crystal-clear tritheism.}
White had to be warned by the moderator (who, BTW, I understand is judicial debate judge in AUS) for his typical self-pontificating regarding being a supposed "critical consultant" for The Lockman Foundation.
White never once offered a response to Perkins' pointing out the force of the masculine singular adjective translated "one" (heis) in Mark 12.29, Gal. 3.20, etc. Typical Trinnie ploy - just ignore it & hope nobody notices.
And I could go on & on & on....and you're *seriously* claiming White was the "winner" w. such classic blunders? Ummm, were we watching the same debate? Did you know the moderator immediately approached Perkins & told him that if they were scoring points & judging the debate that he would've won? Keep dreaming.
Here's Perkins recent scorching refutation to White's recent attacks on Oneness believers (hope you learn something that leads you our false doctrine into biblical Christianity): apostolicacademics.com/
+Roger Perkins Listen back on the video from 2:18 and see how you try really really hard not to say the Son or Jesus - and when you finally say it you're trapped because it's clearly written there in Colossians 1:
Follower of Truth LOL - Oneness are not "trapped" anywhere in the Bible. Now Trinnies, all over the place in the Bible (e.g., Isaiah 44.24, Isaiah 9.6, Colossians 2.9, I Timothy 3.16, John 14.9-10, John 14.16-18, 2 Cor. 3.14-17, Acts 2.38, etc. ad nauseum). Go read the links in honesty of heart for biblical education & salvation.
James White says >> 3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness?
White won the debate with this confession?? Why is this overlooked in here???
It's not overlooked. It's a clear understanding of how God is one.
You said >" It's a clear understanding of how God is one." > James White says > 3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness.
To be clear this is the "trinitarian" understanding of God. Not what the Bible actually says.
James Morris amen. Mr White have said that it was not the father that came it was the son.bible tell us that the holy spirit also came seems to me that someone stayed behind.
You gotta love James White. Thank you Lord for James White.
Love for James White the man does not translate into love for his arguments. His definition of the Godhead is heretical on trinitarian standards.
@@davidcoleman5860How so, David? I'm curious to hear why.
@@tiptupjr.9073 Three different centers of consciousness in God make a composite Godhead. Partialism was condemned as heresy at the Fourth Lateran Council.
A part is anything in a subject, physical or metaphysical, that is less than the whole, the absence of which makes the whole different than what it is. Thus, God is actuated and conserved by something less than what He is in order to be what He is. This renders God dependent on His parts to exist, which of course makes Him logically posterior to His parts. Thus, His parts are more basic and fundamental than He. Since God is ultimate, divine composition must be rejected.
@@davidcoleman5860 I'm not always comfortable with the "person" language in trinitarian discussions but the evidence presented here from Philipians 2, John 1 and 17, and Hebrews 10:5 does seem to indicate that the Word was conscious distinctly from the Father in eternity. I don't know if I like using the term "centers of consciousness" but I don't see another way to meet the evidence presented in White's opening statement.
I'm not big on divine simplicity, but many theologians have been able to reconcile three centers of consciousness with God's lack of parts, although I'm not greatly familiar with all of the arguments.
@@tiptupjr.9073 Thanks for your reply. As you can probably guess, we (Oneness Pentecostals) interpret the passages you cite very differently. Be that as it may, I think we can all agree that there are many biblical passages that are difficult to explicate given our theological templates. For me, if a concept is inherently contradictory (not merely difficult to understand), then it is false by definition. And if it can be shown that my concept is self-denying, then I'm obligated to change my template and look at the evidence through a different lens.
It is our contention that the doctrine of the Trinity (DT) is inherently contradictory and cannot serve as a template for biblical interpretation. Every version (and there are several) either unavoidably affirms composition in the Godhead or it logically extends to tritheism. Neither option is acceptable given the trinitarian's commitment to monotheism and divine aseity.
Perkins is a friend of mine and is unschooled in philosophy, which is why he couldn't fully exploit White's explanation of the Trinity. If they ever debate again (and White has steadfastly refused another debate), Perkins should be better prepared in that regard.
oneness pentecostal apologists have one style-Yell, Shout, Cry baby, Angry etc.
Trinitarians apologists get hurt and insulted when assumed being tritheistic by oneness and get mad when oneness say that they are worst than the devils because they believed in 3 Gods while the devils only believed in 1 God (James 2:19)
Funny!
I loved the part when he talked about the Bible translations and James said Uh I work for them. We're not Unitarians. We did not mean that you said it meant. I died.
Yeah letting us know James White is a braggert and just because he translates does not make him know truth. He is trying build a translation that benefits the Reformed false doctrines of the trinity and 5points of Calvinsim. Let e give you an example of the trinity how he adds? He says the earliest Greek manuscripts for John 1:18 says Mongenes theos or the only begotten God. But he does not translate it to English that way. Why? Because he has been called on it and if true, Christianity is polytheistic. What about the other 2 non-begotten Gods?
SlaveofChrist "I loved the part when he talked about the Bible translations and James said Uh I work for them. We're not Unitarians. We did not mean that you said it meant. I died." Couldn't agree with you more. Perkins had to be told more than once in this debate about that by Dr. White, and yet he still kept misquoting the passage!! Perkins also came across as a very snippy, angry fellow. I even liked how the moderator had to "ring the bell" a couple of times in the direction of Perkins in order to keep him in line and not go down rabbit trails. LOL!!
TheJpgr1958 It is the only passage that says God is One person and Like R Perkins said there is not a single passage that says God is 3 persons NONE!
I assure you Whites bias translating did not fit what they were trying to force into their bias translation so I am sure you did love it but you are going to meet God with it. angry you must have not watched white rolling his eyes and mouthing things like a child.The moderator Told Perkins he thought Perkins won the debate.
mlculwell I have heard people talk about mongenes theos in other debates and I'm certain he's not misusing it. Give me reason to believe he is. Oh and sorry you don't like Calvinism. It really doesn't matter if Scripture teaches it, it's kinda right. But, don't get mad just because he's a Calvinist I love Micheal Brown and I love him partially because he's a arminian.
SlaveofChrist Calvinism and Arminisim are both false doctrines. Yeah monganes theos is polytheism he knows it and will not translate it that way because he knows it. What about the other 2 non-begotten Gods? How many gods is that?I count more than one and that is way too many to be One God!
Both of them are wrong I do not like either one of thier false teachings on God!
Gen 1, Gen 18, Ex 3, Ps 110, Is 63 to name a few that reflect the complex unity of God.
The Word, the Memra, Jesus, fully God, fully man, amen.
You know people James White lost the debate as soon as he said all three gods had separate consciousnesses!!!
Stop lying heretic. He never said, “all three gods”
No timestamp? I didn't hear White say that. If you're going to make claims, show the proof.
@@michaelharrington75
Well bryan, you could actually watch the video. If you did that no time stamp would be needed. Feel free to add one.
@@onemarktwoyou I watched it all, Tina. He didn't say that. Stop lying.
@@onemarktwoyou I watched it all, Tina. He didn't say that. Stop lying.
I love James White!! You can learn a thing or two from him.
Yes, we learned that White openly & unashamedly confesses that there are "3-divine individuals, each with their own *SEPARATE* centers of consciousness"? Wowsie! Crystal-clear Tritheism.
Roger Perkins The difference is, James White has decided to let the scripture speak as a whole instead of cherry picking verses to fit his needs and desires. Once someone lets the bible speak for itself, there is no way you can read it without coming to the conclusion that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One being, three persons, there's no way around it.
sticky2fresh
Umm, no, the diametrical opposite is true: If you allow Scripture to "*speak for itself*" - There is no way possible to arrive at a God who exists as, "*3 divine individuals, each with their own SEPARATE center of consciousness apart from the other 2 divine individuals*". Yikes! This was White's own confession when Perkins grilled him during the cross-ex. Scripture does not teach this - this necessarily *must* be imported from external sources into the Bible. Simply put, it is foreign to the biblical writers paradigm: *God is one person.* (Gal. 3.20; Amplified)
Roger Perkins lol we sure did.
Yes, and judging by his replies to your comment, Perkins needs to review the arguments presented in this and other like debates. Better yet, perhaps he should request an internship under James White so that his biblical errors can be addressed.
James white produced such an amazing case using the fullness of scripture in truth. I pray for Roger Perkins.
+David Maxfield Yea', White really made an "amazing case" as he unashamedly told Perkins & the world that God exists as, *3 divine individuals, each with their own SEPARATE CENTER OF CONSCIOUSNESS APART FROM THE OTHER 2 DIVINE INDIVIDUALS*.....LOL.
Pray for yourself, if you're a "Trinitarian," you're in false doctrine.
*****
Said the fool who worships an unbiblical concept of "god" - poor heretic. Repent if you desire eternal life.
David Maxfield mr white have stated that the father did not come that it was the son.but then bible teaches us that the holy spirit also came hmmm sounds to me like someone stayed behind.
David Maxfield Another thing you should pray about also. Pray you receive the holy spirit .
I guess you can win in a debate against Dr. James White?@@rogerperkins8959
Well. If the Son existed in the beginning with the Father… where is the mother necessary to join the Father. To produce the pre-incarnate Son? The mother of ANY son. MUST exist “face to face” with the father that conceives their mutual child.
The trinity mindset. Is confusion.
The son didn't exist with the father in the beginning but the word did which is the second person. The son doesn't come into existence until the incarnation. John 1 speaks of 2 persons and that the word is the second person but is eternally God who becomes flesh.
@@Jude3Apologetics831
Oh hi!
Thanks for talking.
The Word is logos I it’s original Greek: thought, plan, speech. If the Word was with God. That makes sense. God’s thoughts ARE Him. Like your thoughts. Are you.
John wrote his gospel around 60 AD. There is NO WAY that he is introducing the second person of the so called trinity. Are you two persons or three made in the image of God, as you describe?
Then. If John continues and says that the Word WAS God. That makes sense too. Paul agrees with John that GOD was made manifest in the flesh. Exactly. God and the Word are the same ONE.
MOREOVER. The Scriptures are inspired by the very breath of God. The same invisible Spirit that spoke the World into existence.
The same Spirit that conceived the Son. Begotten had a beginning. The body or temple not made with hands. One Sprit. IN one body. Jesus Christ.
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had *with you* before the world began." -John 17:5.
Here you go, all the proof you need that Jesus existed as a seperate person WITH the Father (and not as a form of the Father) before He was born.
You must have a problem distinguishing Jesus and God, Jesus was a man , spoke the words of God in truth, Jesus was with The Father as The Logos, not taking flesh until The Father was reveal by The Son.
John 1.1 tells us that The Word was in the beginning.
If Jesus was a second divine person he couldn’t lose his glory he was praying that he would be resurrected just like he was slain before creation. Rev 13:8 doesn’t mean he pre-existed! Isaiah55:11 my word does not return void.
Where are the other God persons in Rev 22:3-4? Just one on the throne JESUS! God manifest in flesh 1 Tim 3:16
James Morris “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.”
Revelation 22:1, 3
Just one on the throne you say? Go read it again.
Revelation 21:2 ....if we are forever with Christ, and He is with us after the millennium kingdom and the white throne judgement, He will be with us when the city comes down from God....though He lives with us.
Dr. White won hands down, I also loved the debate with brother white and brother brown teamed up against the Unitarian Jewish gentlemen. The triune nature of God is self evident in the Holy scriptures. You will see in the comment section the hate from non trinitarians, not all of them, but some of them, and the trolling from them wow, lol. Some non Trinitarians are even complaining about Dr. whites using the Holy bibles original language. Are you serious, lol. WOW!
Nah. Jesus said only the father is the true God. John 17:3
@@Sirach144 The Trinity is the truth, and if you disagree, then come debate and defend you're heresy.
@@Sirach144 Actually Yeah. H/e/ i/s/ G/o/d a/l/o/n/g w/i/t/h t/h/e/ S/o/n/ a/n/d/ t/h/e H/o/l/y/ S/p/i/r/i/t. C/o/m/e/ t/o/ /a/ c/h/a/n/n/e/l n/a/m/e/d S/h/a/m/o/u/n/i/a/n, h/i/s/ n/a/m/e/ S/a/m/ S/h/a/m/o/u/n. C/o/m/e/ d/e/b/a/t/e, y/o/u/ c/a/n/c/a/l/l/ in v/i/a/ S/k/y/p/e. The Lord Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.
@@Sirach144 Yes, you’re right Jesus said the Father is the only true God John 17:3.
John 17:3 was Before the death of Jesus, yes?
After his death and resurrection Jesus went to heaven John 20:17 and while there
1- Jesus received his incorruptible and immortal body placed upon his mortal dust flesh (without blood 1st Corinthians 15:50) body 1st Corinthians 15:53 (Colossians 1:18 Jesus has the preeminence in all things; 1st Corinthians 15:23 all believers will receive the same at the coming of Jesus)
2- was begotten of God Acts 13:33, and
3- The Father said to his Son Your throne o God is for ever and ever; the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom’ Hebrews 1:8 and gave Jesus
Aa Ali of his (the Father’s) authority judging man (mankind) John 5:22,27
Bb all of the Father’s authority over man in heaven and in earth Matthew 28:18
Cc all things under his feet 1st Corinthians 15:34-27, Matthew 22:44 (Psalm 110:1) and gave him to be head over all things to the church Ephesians 1:22-23.
Conclusion: After the death of Jesus and his resurrection to heaven the Father didn’t remain the Only True God for the Father made Jesus God equal to himself by his own statement Hebrews 1:8 and actions giving Jesus his Son all - keeping none authority in reserve - authority toward mankind (man) John 5:22,27 in heaven and in earth Matthew 28:18, over all things to the church Ephesians 1:22-23.
Yes there are Now Two Gods, not two persons in one God, in the New Testament one (heis: one, many in one) God: the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit of God as the spirit of man within the Father’s God’s material spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:8-11, John 8:17-18 ( no spirit of man - a man 1st Corinthians 14:14 (verses 2-14) - is equal to his man except when sent representing his man 1st Corinthians 5:4; the spirit of God as the God the Father’s spirit of man within his God’s material spirit body is not equal to his man, God).
@@righteousnessofchrist3304 The New Testament one (heis: one, many in one) God is the Father and the Son Jesus Christ John 17:3 (before the death of Jesus Christ), 1st Corinthians 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6 written after the death of Jesus.
The Holy Spirit of God is the Father’s spirit of man within his God’s material spirit body 1st Corinthians 2:9-11, John 8:17-18: no spirit of man is equal to his man except when sent representing his man 1st Corinthians 5:4.:
: The Spirit of God is not equal to the Father because he is the Father’s spirit of man within his (the Father’s) God’s material spirit body 1st Corinthians2:9-11.
Jesus had his own spirit of man within his body - The spirit of God’s Son crying Abba Father Galatians 4:6, the spirit of Jesus - Before God (the Father) gave Jesus the Spirit (Jesus, as created mortal man Didn’t have the Spirit of God from God and all his things John 3:34-35 at the start of his Christ ministry when the spirit of Jesus became known As The Spirit of Christ Romans 8:9 ( Jesus Christ Philippians 1:19), and the spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba Father Romans 8:15.
He was trying to trap James with his questions, but it didn’t work.
I find it interesting how one will automatically side with the winner of a debate being the person that they share theological positions with.
Both men had very good points and did well.
I have not heard sermons from White, just debates, in which he is very talented in upholding his position.
I have heard a sermon from Perkins and even sat with him and had some personal discussion, namely, concerning his position on 1Cor 15:24-28.
He is a phenomenal speaker, preaches the cross, and is very well versed. I think many may not like the country boy approach and demeanor, but it does not take from the study he has done in God's word.
He butchers Scripture. Sadly. I mean Perkins.
That’s not how country boy talks in a debate because I go to church right up the road from his church
He doesn’t respect context of scripture very well. Also ignores God’s revelations of the New Testament.
He also snaps at Dr. White for going over when White was ~10 seconds under his 2 minute response limit. He’s a bad debater, and aside from his opening exposition he does not do much to prove or disprove either position.
one hour in and i'm not totally convinced by either side but let me say Roger put his heart on the field and i respect that...he certainly has so far done better than i expected
Facts matter more than feelings though...anyone can get emotional...but that doesn't mean they are on the side of facts.
@@interpretingscripture8068 Yes, facts do matter more than feelings. And the unavoidable fact is that the doctrine of the Trinity is inherently contradictory and is thus false on its face. I am not merely making the claim that it is so. I can and have demonstrated it repeatedly. Regardless the version of the Trinity you espouse (yes, there are multiple versions), each one either affirms some sort of direct composition in the Godhead or tritheism. Thus, regardless the slickness of a presentation or the apparent knowledge of a proponent, an inherently contradictory doctrine is false, and no appeal to the apparent professionalism of one side over the other can rescue a patently false position.
@David Coleman I would say the concept of the Trinity is very logically consistent however what is revealed in scripture is of utmost importance.
Scripture is clear that the Father is God...that the son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God yet there is one God. The only logical way to maintain both the Oneness of God and the personhood and deity of all three is the Trinity....one Triune God.
@@interpretingscripture8068 You claim that the doctrine of the Trinity (DT) is logically consistent, but the revelation of the Bible is "of utmost importance." This implies that biblical revelation is superior to logical consistency. However, without logical consistency, the Bible would be incoherent. False concepts cannot, even in principle, be rendered true by an appeal to the Bible, because that would render the Bible a book of falsehood. If a concept is untrue, then it cannot, by definition, be a biblical concept (if the Bible is the infallible word of God). It is no different if we attempt to read "married bachelor" into the Bible. If you're married, you're not a bachelor, and vice versa. If the Bible doesn't teach false concepts, it then follows that the Bible cannot teach the concept of married bachelors.
As I stated, regardless the version of the Trinity you espouse, excepting Swedenborgianism, you either affirm some form of direct composition in the Godhead, or your affirmation leads unavoidably to tritheism. Since you clearly disagree with me, then I invite you to explain how your concept of the DT does _not_ avoid composition while maintaining monotheism. Or, perhaps you have no problem with a composite Godhead. In that case, I'd like to read your explanation why that does not render God's being dependent on His parts for His actuation and conservation.
@David Coleman Logic and God are 100% compatible because it's part of his nature. The weakness of logic is not in God or his truth but only in man's perception and understanding of logic. Thus the "however".
You assume God must be bound by our finite understand of one vs plural. God is infinite and is everywhere present simultaneiusly yet at the same time scripture also reveal to us that he dwells in heaven.
There are many characteristics of God that cannot be fully grasped by our finite minds but we accept them as true because he gives us a glimpse of them as they are revealed in scripture. This is also true of his triune nature. This is not logically inconsistent except to the finite mind of man.
2:24:00 that was the explanation i needed thank you james white
lol The Word always exist BUT NOT THE SON OF MAN WHO BEEN BEGOTTEN BY THE ONE WHO ALWAYS EXIST.
@@michelhaineault6654 I didn't see this comment but the word exists eternally by eternal begetting
@@joop6463 lie, if it's eternal, it has never been begotten but THE MAN Jesus been begotten in a virgin NEVER BEFORE.
That was hardly an explanation… not a scriptural explanation, he can only do it with theological understandings; meaning he has to step outside of the Bible and use words that you can’t even find it the scriptures. Mans interpretation…
Reformed Theology rules!
Pretty easy to defeat the oneness arguments since they he is basically saying “the New Testament authors were wrong”. So then do we throw out the New Testament? Pretty clear they don’t want to let the entirety of scripture speak.
100%!!
When your loosing a debate,be sarcastic ad start screaming that should do it lol
Roger Perkins was woefully outmatched in this debate. Dr. White masterfully and eloquently won this debate hands down.
Roger Perkins is so angry.
Makes me think that he does not have the Peace of our Lord.
Your title is deceptive. Modalism teaches God ceased when Jesus was born, then Jesus ceased when His body died. Oneness teaches God is omnipresent, manifested in the flesh while still existing in Spirit everywhere, and that Jesus was and is the image of the invisible God.
So… 2 divine beings, both being God?
Perkins is lacking of Idea of Progressive revelation.
LOL - Trinitarianism is "Digressive" - not "Progressive" supposed "revelation."
Roger Perkins Sure? Heb. 1 indicates a progressive revelation. From Old to New.
Yes, I am 100% "sure." Where does the book of Hebrews offer a radical
different view of the OT identity of Yahveh:__________? Esp. since this
book was addressed to believers soaked in the OT canon (Hebrew
believers). Nothing more than usual Trinitarian eisegesis.
It's difficult to listen to Perkins speak with his saliva issue. He's smacking his gums. Otherwise, it's an informative debate.
BrinkTheGamer Do you profess Christianity?
As I read through the comments, I noticed how people correlate oneness with Pentecostalism. This is the first time I've ever seen a correlation made between the two but I can assure you that this isn't a prerequisite (so to say) in the Pentecostal creed. I am Pentecostal and wholeheartedly subscribe to the trinitarian understanding of God using logical deduction in exegetical sola scriptura.
Btw, I started watching lectures, debates, sermons regarding the trinity only recently because I work with JW who think Jesus was a created being of God. If anyone is interested in a good debate regarding this topic, look up the "trinity debate" with Michael brown and James white one the panel against Unitarians.
Be blessed!
Oneness Pentecostalism is a thing - also called the United Pentecostal Church. I was raised in the UPC, but now fully embrace the trinity. The Biblical languages more accurately support the trinity than modalism.
@@TexasHoosier3118 are you still pentecostal? Just outta curiosity.