Smelting Platinum/Palladium Catalytic Converters For PGMs..... Success???
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- Опубликовано: 21 май 2020
- Continuing the quest for a way to direct smelt catalytic converters and recover the platinum and palladium without the use of chemicals or acids. In this video Jason looks at different flux combinations and collector metals for the highest recovery of precious metals and PGMs. Here is a link to our first video smelting catalytic converters: • Can Platinum & Palladi...
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Looking forward to see the beads getting smelted!!
Have a GREAT Day!!!
I like the idea of silver as a collector, the button could then be dissolved in nitric, putting the silver and palladium into solution and leaving only the platinum at the bottom of a beaker. Then the silver and palladium could each be brought out of solution, one at a time, thus separating those two from each other.
Yep I second that. Sliver nitrate is easy to separate and recover
Chemistry is so f ing cool
Would agree that increasing silver content during smelt process might help increase recovery if it’s actually the limiting reactant for pulling out the palladium. Any way to calculate that? Chemistry is freakin cool.
Nitric acid becomes weakened from more silver being present which reduces it's dissolve ability for the PL.
Thanks, Jason. Raising your algorithm. Lotsa work for small recovery, so far - keep up the good work; I’m looking forward to your next video.
Good job! Excellent work; I'm happy to have found your channel
Just FYI, the tantalum peaks and platinum peaks for some types of xrf guns can overlap to the point where even 100% pure platinum will be read as tantalum. Codyslab has the same problem with gold and tungsten, the reason is because the gold and tungsten X-ray detection peaks are so close together the machine can’t decide which element signal it is. The same problem occurs with tantalum and platinum. Contact the customer support for your particular brand of xrf gun to determine if this is a known problem. Also try maybe shooting a sample of known platinum concentration, something where it’s impossible to have tantalum contamination and see what reading you get.
Right on Spider with the information. Could of not said it better myself.
Is that not toxic as all hell?
@@shockingshorts8043 wear gloves and don't eat any
What about fumes?
@@shockingshorts8043 respirator and/or do it outside if you're grinding
Another awesome video, thank you for examining every angle and I personally like the longer videos!
I have a suggestion for consolidating your high melting metal powders into a chunk of metal. You could take the mud from electrowinning the Pt and Pd out of Cu and dry it out to get metal powder. When we work with precious metal powders in the lab, we press them into pellets in a pellet die then melt them in an arc melter. You will not need an inert atmosphere to melt Pt or Pd so you could use a TIG torch to melt them. Use a large, clean block of copper as a hearth plate and the metal should not stick (unless you get the copper too hot).
I think your Idea of adding silver to reduce the melting point of the lead alloy was a good idea.
This is really interesting material. I appreciate the effort you put into providing it. Many thanks!
hey Jason cool video man :) great to see all the skills used in smelting : I won't pretend i know much about this :) but I will say I love watching these type of videos :)
Jason keep up the great work - in the name of Science !!
Thanks for your videos!!
Love all your videos since I found this site I have used several techniques! Great descriptions fabulous RUclips channel best online thanks for taking the time to do so it's beginners like us that would never continue or it not for people like you!
Thanks for all the help. I've been spending months getting all these converters and they are just sitting here. It sucks nearly getting shot, watching out for cops and forget about the lookout bugging me for his cut. I've ruined my first couple but now I'm finally making money because of you and others just like you.😊
Excellent experiments, thank you for sharing.
Excelente video hermano saludos desde HERMOSILLO SONORA MÉXICO
I'm learning as you move along with your process.
I could watch this for days . Great stuff I'm fascinated with this . Great job
I use to do diagnostics , repair & smog testing in CA , 80s-90s .
And with with recently , the last 6 -8 yrs. getting into collecting electronics for repair and going after the precious metals .
A few months ago , came across info that in CATs that have 2 separate bed / sections , both have platinum , but they differ in that the front bed has palladium and the rear section has rhodium .
This is a 2 stage catalytic reaction to breakdown different part of the exhaust .
And it is easier to process the 2 beds separately , especially when rhodium is so much more valuable .
Thanks again
hello. thanks for your information.
Maybe can you tell something about how possible take out the rhodium from catalyc? thanks. thats the main mission for me...
@@szucslorant4115 Kinda depends on your lab / abilities , the chemistry of the platinum group is difficult & much more dangerous/toxic than gold & silver .
Too much for saying here ,
Thank you, Jason, for this extensive empirical research. I think this is the best research you can find on you tube. I do not understand this subject, but as you explain everything it all sounds so logical.
Hello Jason, I invite you to Kazakhstan I really like your method. I have a large quartz ore deposit where I get gold for life with the use of (chemical) acids. If you could help me with your method, I would be very happy Regards Odil!
I always watching you're smelting... For I have some platinum for smelting...tnx for learning jason
I do believe you're the first person to smelt down a converter. And show us how much is actually in it. Very good content..👍
Industrial separation of cats is usually done with very high heat and using iron as the collection metal though some use copper. I also know that the honeycomb is burnt off before being milled into a fine powder in a ball mill. Also of note is that newer iron sulfide methods of extraction are being used as they can operate at a temp of only 950 deg C.
In addition to tantalum, I also noticed some vanadium. Both metals can be used in NOX converters. The converter you used had two distinct sections. Perhaps the upstream section was for NOX and the downstream a typical converter.
Right on - excellent experimentation! Keep in mind skin contact and inhalation of platinum salts can lead to bronchitis/asthma and contact dermatitis.
This explains the ongoing thefts of sawing off people's catalytic converters!!
I have
You have... sawed off people's cats or you've had yours sawed off?
these vids are great, keep up the good work
Excellent work thank you it’s a long and extensive process not easy at all
Great work done , very much helpful , Big Thanks
dang those convection currents in the flux are really cool...
Some of those have Rhodium. Palladium will be highest content then platinum then rhodium. (Generally). Converters have different amounts of metal depending on the motor they were used on.
The honeycomb is called the substrate.
You don’t want that. All you want is the coating on the substrate. that’s where the metal is. The slurry coats the substrate. If you can find a way to get just the coating off the substrate, you will greatly reduce the effort and starting material. (Crushed up substrate is just more waste you have to remove.). That’s about as much as I can tell you without fear of Loosing my job.
I won't tell
hello. thanks for your information.
Maybe can you tell something about how posible take out the rhodium from catalyc? thanks thats the main problem for me...
oh wow so OK your near Mt Baker, cool, Everett Born and Bred, you get that sweet view of the mountain.. nice area
I have learned so much from you Jeff and Dough thanks in this time we need this
They used ion-exchange resins to separate the Pt and Rh. The RhCl3 is what came out of the ion-exchange resin column.
This is what I found:
One of the main uses of tantalum is in the production of electronic components. An oxide layer which forms on the surface of tantalum can act as an insulating (dielectric) layer. Because tantalum can be used to coat other metals with a very thin layer, a high capacitance can be achieved in a small volume.
Any buyer for tantalum here?
Tantalum is very rare & used in every cell phone. It is only found in Tanzania, ,Africa using child labor. Many die in the unstable mines. They are buried in the mine.
@goldcic That is so sad. There is so much stuff like that that goes on in the world its hard to believe. Do you know much about the content in this video by chance? If so I'd like to ask you a few questions about it thanks in advance. Also you are very well nevermind you already know 😉
Xlent program, very technical and informative.
That was interesting, my first time seeing the process😃😃 THANKS
A local guy! Glad I found your channel. I'm in Arlington.
I really dont know what the heck is going on ,but i love the the melted colours and stuff ,thanks jason.
Using chemistry for precious metal recovery.
I have a clue but still lost. I know the chemicals but not the chemistry or techniques. I'm use to slapping metals in a forge and making bars.
I like it to if only you could paint a car with it
the cooling slag is always mesmerizing
Very cool. These are being stollen in my area. Now I understand why. Thanks man.
Now you can steal it too 🤣🤣
The silver to "inquart" the lead out of your pgm button was a great idea. Excited for the Pt bead video
@mbmmllc
The tantalum came from inside the engine.
There's no platinum cause it was burnt off before the palladium was during vehicle use (wear and tear).
There will always be a lower recovery on a used catalytic converter. The precious metals are coated on the ceramics, as it is in use (vehicle being driven) these precious metals are coming off and blowing in the road..BUT on a diesel semi truck the precious metals are being stored within the soot and collected above in the collector container.. on average those containers hold 2-3 oz's of particulate matter. This particulate matter holds more precious metals then on the used cones you are experimenting with.
I have several pounds if you'd like to try a few samples.. let me know.
I believe there are more precious metals in the particulates of the soot/ash of a diesel semi truck than in a used ceramic cone.
Precious metals are sintered on the outside surfaces of the cones. As soot from the engine attaches to the cones (containing oils and other metals) they get super hot and almost sinter to the cones themselves. This soot/ash goes thru a super heat process of around 3200 f degrees during the regeneration process (cleaning process) and release these materials ..right along with the precious metals.
Trying doing what you do with diesel soot/ash... I bet your results are higher.
I think your probably right
@@dumbnrduh Still wishing I could get help with it.
great work dear jason. yes you are. we love your work from Muzaffarabad, AJK, PAKISTAN
❤ can't wait to see how you process the beads 🧑🏭
It would be useful to stir the molten metal bath to increase the contact surface of the collector metal with the PGMs and if you use copper as a collector, the ideal is to subject the PGM copper alloy to electrolysis, reuse the electrolytic copper and the PGMs remain as black powder to be refined in the bottom of the electrolytic tank, the excessive use of NaO in the flux can involve losses of Pt, the highest production cost is in the flux, sodium borate is not cheap. Congratulations for the job!!
The platinum in the ceramic beads can be recovered directly from the beads with a complex reaction. I think you will have higher Pt recovery from the complex reaction process than from the smelting process.
Great experiments
Is it similar to the one that Cody’s lab did?
Beautiful convection cell video!
Awesome Video Thanks man I just learned something new today
8:17 the original lava lamp! Cool video!
I just love watching those convection patterns in the molten stuff. 😍
Excelente Vídeo...
damn, why youtube havent suggested any of your videos instead those lame crazy useless videos i get till now? keep up the great work... best wishes.
Inininininibibibibibibobibbi
not something I am likely to do, but it is neat to watch. Especially watching the flux cool!
You are very smart and you had this in the basket add the catalytic converters and the Borox start the smelt add silver then add lead
I worked at both the Stillwater Smelter & Base Metals Refinery in Columbus Montana. We’d actually smelt down Bulk Bags of Catalyst. The end result was a black powder we sent to Engelhard Refinery for end process. They’d keep the Gold / Silver and we’d get the Platinum/Palladium. I will say we had all the mined metal from the Nye Montana and East Boulder.
After smelting I don't see how it would be a black powder? That is what happens in chemical process. Were you the smelter?
With the copper collector metal, would it work to electrorefine the copper away and retrieve the precious metals from the anode mud?
well I am following what you are doing .and thanks for sharing.
cooling down... that looks pretty cool
Sulfuric electrolyte with metal foil as anode, metal plated over to cathode loosens precious metals wash coat which falls to the bottom of the cell.
At 13:17, there's a sports car on the back side of the cooling pyramid just above the slag line.
Now we know what kind of car left it's spirit in that cat.
porsche
Nice to see you back on the tube.hay hay from mt st helens
i love the lava look and the movement
At 6:30
The surface of the molten metal reminds me of the surface of Pluto's big heart feature.
i trust you know exactly what you're doing. still have to say, it pains me to see a 1oz silver buffalo go into a crucible in may when spot was around $16. it almost went to $30 in august!
Fascinating. Thank you
Oh I had an idea for your cone molds, you should make an overflow slit and put a second mold on the ground to catch any overflow metal so less waste
In terms of using an automotive catalyst- assuming the mass of the base catalyst matters relative to how much PGM recovery you expect- I would suggest only doing the first catalyst. Generally, they will have 5x the amount of platinum or palladium in them vs. the second one. Again, finding automotive catalysts from PZEV vehicles in the 2000-2007 range will the highest potential of all PGM. After some control work, OEM's figured out how to manipulate the air-fuel control to not require the high PGM loadings of the original PZEV cars.
Also- all of the gasoline catalysts in the last 30 years are all 3 way catalysts. The first one will do the vast majority of the work, the second one is there for high mass flow (like when you accelerate on a freeway).
I know nothing about industrial catalysts- so it will be interesting to see your experiment.
Since there's so little platinum and palladium in each converter, the chemical method with hot aqua regia is usually the best method. You just keep soaking new converter fragments over and over until the reagent is used up.
Then cool the solution quickly, and most of the platinum/palladium just falls out. I found that out by accident when refining some old 10K gold jewelry. Fine grey sediment fell out of the aqua regia as it cooled, and I discovered it was metallic, then confirmed it was indeed platinum-palladium alloy.
I WILL TRY THAT, THANKS!!!
I cannot judge if this was a success. But I definatelly enjoyed the video! Cheers!!
I ABSOLUTLY LOVE THESE VIDEOS DUDE!!!!!
This is more fun than watching steel rust
Jason is it possible to crush the cupel’s you used to get a beads and then xRF them to examine their content for lost materials?
Appreciate that. Must be worthwhile
The whole thing is precious . Small message , Urea neutralize the muraitic acid and the nitric before throwing it away .
I’ve seen Cody’s lab hit the lead/platinum button with an oxy acetylene torch while its in the cupel to melt the bead and drive off the lead
Agreed oxy/acetyl torch will drive off the last bit. How ever don't blast it for to long oxy/acetyl gets hot enough to vaporize pgm's eventually
@@kieranodea771 I did that once with gold it just suddenly vanished and left a rainbow behind luckily it wasn't much gold
@@jaydaksrules5316 The key is to use around half the oxygen you would normally use. Other wise an oxy/acetylene flame is so hot it will just vaporize gold and pgm's like you said. Especially when in small amount or if its in a finely divided state.
@@jaydaksrules5316 Also you should be able to remove all the lead from gold with normal means with a cupel. Really only pgm's have the issue of needing really high temperature to remove the last bit of lead.
Sreetips chemically refines pgm and then smelts it to nearly 4000 degrees
use catalytic converters you pulled off yourself, if you buy them from ebay they are usually chemically treated to get all the precious metals out
Hence it being damp
Then whats the point in doing all this if you can just chemically treat it to get it out?
@@thefogisgone3662 the recovery rate is less if you leave it all together. So some jagoff's decides to extract 40% chemically of the metal than sell it at full price.
@@Jdalio5 ohh, fair enough, i have officially been learnt by the youtubes.
you will never get from ebay cleaned ones are empty because those dudes use acids, and since its inside metal tube you cant get it all out, they all on ebay got 30-40% of the initial content left, but yes you better off not pay at all what was in there
I'm binge watching this dude. I have no f-ing idea what he is doing but i dig it it a lot.
Thanks for the info.👍
Hey Jason! Does platinum oxidize and lose weight as it comes into contact with oxygen at it's melting point?
I have tried melting platinum before and it violently started vaporizing. I even tried slowly approaching its melting point but i was quickly losing the precious metal.
Im just wondering if your losing some when you coupelle. Although it dont look like your losing any. Nonetheless thank you for your time making these videos. I have learned a lot.
Hi Jason! Thanks for another great video! I am super new to most if this stuff, but this came to mind: first, why not have the raw honeycomb assayed, if it's not too expensive. I've heard once ICP-MS is common for catalytic converter assay. For what you are doing there, like the lead collector metal and how cupelling it results in a higher melting point as the lead oxidizes, could your plasma torch be helpful there? Any idea how many thousand degrees it 'burns' at, and if it would be practical to use it for heating the sample? Would an oxy-acetyline torch (5000 F?) be any help either? I also ran across a cupel last night that was rated for use with platinum or PGM. I don't know if any of that helps, esp since you are abandoning lead as a collector metal, at least for now.
I just found your channel and you do some great stuff! Since I don't see pricing on your website, I will probably contact you to ascertain some costs. The idea of mechanical or thermal processes to recover metals vs. chemical processes appeals to me a great deal! Also, about a week ago I went looking for mining claims, and finding your channel certainly fills in some blanks for me! Also, I laughed at 4:40 an 'armstrong' stamping mill, single battery lol Thanks again! Oh, somehow .04% of honeycomb weight comes to mind for Pt content in car cats, but it varies a great deal, and that number may be mis-remembered..
yeah was also wondering whether a nitrogen plasma torch could be useful at the end.
Cupellation
a refining process in metallurgy where ores or alloyed metals are treated under very high temperatures &
non oxidizing precious metals remain apart, and the others react, forming slags or other compounds
I definitely like that you have another method to do this, though I'd be likely to use the aqua regia method myself, mostly because familiarity.
Take care friend. Platinosis cutaneous and respiratory allergic reactions to exposure to complex salts of platinum. Use mask and gloves!
He isn't making salts so he is fine but more like when oxidizes lead is more dangerous
Ag has a lower melting point than Cu, better helping to lower the m.p. of your alloy.
25:22 - It's useful to place the metals with higher m.p.s on top, as they will melt last, while the heat from the Ag rises. Also, their higher densities will help push down on the Silver.
More cost efficient to use Ag shot, than melting a coin? Haha. Whatever works!
Will be Interesting to see which of your formulas produces the best yield. Cheers.
Sorry watching this video made me late for my lawyer's appointment got to go guys thanks for the video
I used silver chloride myself. Easy to make and like lead oxide it has a lot of surface area.
I worked at a platinum mine and we used silver as the collector metal its cheap enough to be viable and you don't have to bother with the coupelling
Know anyone buying Pt orem I got a couple of ton s of it. All silver or Pt
How do you know where it's at? I mean you just pick a spot and test dig or is there a way to find it then mine it. I know I can Google it but I'm old school I like to learn shit from people who do it, not just say whatever is standard. Thank you
@@kitjasabsgabs1830 gotta pretend to be a nugget
@@aaronlegend14 🤣
there is always boiling nitric and hydrochloric acid to dissolve PGMs into solution to separate and get out pure metals
The problem with that is how dangerous PGMs are in solution. Google platinosis. If you don’t have to dissolve PGMs you’re much better off not.
I just can't help but feel this is just going to help thefts. Way to go. I really hope yours was the first to be stolen.
All left over solutions were placed in an insulated fiber glass tank. It was heated with steam. There was a plastic bucket with holes and pieces of Zn.
The XRF gun can sometimes get confused, so the tantalum might actually be your platinum. I've seen gold show as lead and tungsten on XRF guns before, so they aren't always 100% correct
Yep. they need to know what theyre working with to properly understand what the returning xrays mean.
Yup. The signals generated from tantalum and platinum have a major feature in common (both signals have a big spike at 9.4 keV). It's similar for gold and tungsten (both have a big spike at 9.7 keV). Where the signals are similar they can be confused, so for best results, XRF software needs to have an idea of what is expected to be in the sample (this is why you get different versions for base metal analysis and precious metal analysis).
catch22frubert yep, codyslab almost always displays 100% pure gold as a tungsten peak. The amount of overlap between element peaks can be huge especially for pgms
That's the fake gold the US made to pay debt to other country I forget which one. 😉
It's the same cat that came on my 98 Honda Civic EX coupe they're worth about $300 if you know the right people but $60 from a normal junkyard
Your guy screwed you that particular one is worth around 600
Tantalum I noticed appears when you shot the silver bead, and that makes since because it is a transition medal also Ra too. They both came with the silver and copper. The copper I assume wasn't pure and was from wire scrap. Both Ra and Ta are contaminants from the coin and scrap wire.
Nice work!!
Curious about using Tin as a collector metal.
The only thing we know for sure is who ever smelt it delt it.
🤣🤣🤣
😂😂😂😂
Whoever did the rhyme did the crime.
That's just hilarious 😂
Dirty dog barks first.
That's cool I always wondered about that
It does help to talk out loud. You get good feedback
i've hollowed a few cats for friends before, having a welder and grinders and such needed. the first one i broke out without a respirator on... never again. that ceramic dust in there is really bad stuff to breath in, i found out the hard way.
I always crush with a respirator on, catalytic converter dust gets into your bone marrow, really bad stuff.
And dust in your lungs is always a bad thing 😅
Jason two questions
1. How do you keep the gold , silver and lead from sticking to your iron
&
2. When you use Portland cement for a cupel how do you form it?
Thank you so much for your time
Erik
Just as a note from an old metalworker, they are not called 'bigger hammers', they are 'Precision Calibrators', the bigger they are, the more precise
Holly cow man you know your stuff ! Think I will just stick to mowing the lawn .