The biggest difference between Charlie and Maulie is that in the latter's case, the people of Splendor seem to have faith in Maul's ability to sell dungeons and castles to those in need of one. Meanwhile, everyone in Hell outright mocks Charlie's desire to change sinners; mainly for the fact they believe that once you're dead and in Hell, there's no going back
It’s not just that everyone believes Hell is the end of the road. It’s also that Charlie’s method of expressing her ideas and trying to put them into practice is extremely childish. Canonically she’s 200-ish years old and using hand darwn pictures made of crayon to try and sell her ideas to people.
@@mando7346 Right That's also a factor at play on the whole thing...but would it be better if she were mean, ruthless and cruel like Alastor in her methods?
@@SilverScribe85 No. But she does need to change her method of expressing her ideas to people. Charlie doesn’t understand her audience nor does it feel like she’s all that aware of this fact. If she wants people to listen to her. Charlie needs to learn how to explain herself in a way that doesn’t look like a eight year old came up with it.
I like the cooking chicken analogy to compare the pilots: Dungeon Flippers- a bit bland, needs a little more seasoning Hazbin Hotel- too much seasoning, can barely taste the chicken
@@Cardinal_claw Vivziepop's biggest weakness as a writer is and has always been a complete inability to murder her darlings. So when she asked for 24 episode seasons and got 8 episode seasons instead, rather than respect the imposed limitation and change her planned story outline accordingly, she crammed *all* of her original ideas for season one into the allotted 176 minutes. It's also why Season 2 of Helluva Boss has such a mixed reception compared to Season 1. Vivziepop didn't really go into Helluva Boss with a clearly defined plan beyond each individual episode. It was only after the series grew beyond being a simple side project for Hazbin Hotel into a massively popular IP in its own right that she came up with one. And so she decided to turn the show from an episodic black comedy into a serialized dramatic character study because that's what she does. She doesn't think of whether an idea fits into a cohesive story she just thinks of something she finds neat and runs with it.
@@HunterStiles651 A couple of things 1. her planned story did change and a lot of the original ideas for season one got cut including main characters. So that isn't really true and she can murder her darlings. That doesn't make sense I mean even in season 1 there are signs of setting up for future plots, so something didn't change in season 2, so that doesn't explain a more mixed rececpton with season 2. She does think whether an idea fits into a cohesive story hell that serialized dramatic character study stuff has been a thing since episode 2. She doesn't just thinks of something she finds neat and runs with it, she changed plan accordingly, have you seen Adventure Time before or? Cause that show changed it's focus too and people love it.
Most "mature" shows are just political satire, so it makes sense why both of these stand out while still being "mature" and dealing with "mature" things. Hazbin Hotel is one end of the "mature cartoon" spectrum, being extremely immature to the point of exhaustion and nauseation. Just watching the characters go between being redrawn every frame to just being rotated around feels like a FlipaClip animation. On the other end of the "mature cartoon" spectrum is Dungeon Flippers, being extremely mature to the point of putting the viewer to sleep. Obviously that's hyperbolic, but there's a reason why there aren't a lot of shows about people selling houses. That's just a very "mature" job, and it's hard to make that -EXCITING for the audience.
I wonder if it was inspired by Hazbin, but taking notes on what NOT to do? I know it’s usually coincidental, but it’s something I thought of as a possibility
Dear god....I heart you just say how mature this very mature thing handles it's mature topic maturely...like can you get to the point already? How is Hazbin immature? How is Dungeon Flippers extremely mature? What makes something a mature job? Is a rehabilation center not a mature job?
I dont think the show needs to push the two main protagonists more or to an overly dramatic extend not every show needs to be a world ending threat or their like Let them climb the ranks of their profession and in the end find the perfect home for the Dungon Master of this Universe. That would be nice. Wholesome and finally just not exhausting like every show seems to be these days. Its amazing when people have fun with these high stake storys and enjoy them. But for me, i just grown numb to them. I want simple fantastical storys, with simple fantastical solutions. A way for the protagonists to work and live throught their trauma and come out by the end a better person, without needing to save the world in the first place Thats the biggest flaw in my eyes for the over saturated market these days. everyone wants to make his hero the ultimate hero Frieren somehwat countered that narrtive, because yes. While she was instrumental in saveing the World with Himmel, the show just shows you that live goes on and in the end she is just an elf. with her own motives, desires, abilities, dreams, wishes and problems. And thats why it caught so many people its a fantastical story for simple men Doesnt need to be anything more than that
Well, im not against any world ending threat as long as it doesn't removes main point of show - dungeons (Unlike in hazbin hotel where the threat was getting all attention to itself, basically there's no hotel, only hazbin)
Yeah, I see this as a strength of Hazbin- so much of her childish cluelessness comes from her being so untouchable. Her level of nepotism is literally ordained by God- that she is immune to culling because of her parentage. The problem is that the show doesn't take the time to highlight this fact in a meaningful way, but it would be basically... incorrect lorewise if it weren't this way.
I really wish someone in-universe had called out Charlie for her privilege and naiveté. She has this insane goal that she has no idea how to achieve and expects everyone else to agree and be on board even though she has absolutely no proof it works. She honestly seems more concerned with proving she's right than actually helping anyone. I don't think she even knows any of the Sinners' real names, apart from Alastor. Making her prideful and more concerned with being right could've been an interesting character flaw, but the show keeps validating her. Charlie is like the Hell equivalent of a "white savior". She's a privileged person acting on behalf of an underprivileged group, but she's more motivated by ego than altruism. She wants the satisfaction of helping people, but doesn't put in much effort to really get to know them.
What I like about Dungeon Flippers is that there is no intellectual pretense behind it. The show just wants to be a fun and exciting ride for the viewers to enjoy.
Looking back at it... damn, in comparison the Pilot still stands out, and even more considering I couldn't take ANYTHING seriously in the Prime Series.
There was a early version of the script that got out that showcased how neutered it got due to the runtime among other things. Shame. The original was a fair bit better. Hopefully it can recover from that stumble in the following seasons. Otherwise I think it's going to fall out of relevancy as more indie projects get support.
The Hazbin Hotel pilot was like the milk I left on the kitchen counter for days. Aged Poorly. If you want an ACTUAL good pilot check out the first episode of the Castle Series from Oscar Johansson.
4:21 I mean it kinda makes sense, the show and the pilot seem to heavily hint that Charlie, quite literally decided to do this hotel thing on a whim, hence why hotel looked so run down before Alistor chipped in. I think the REAL question is why Vaggie didn't intervene, she seems like her manager and yet she had no issues with Charlie's hotel? And Charlie had NO money as a ROYALTY to give to Vaggie to renovate??? 😅 14:51 Fax
In my opinion,I would say Dungeon Flippers has the most potential out of all them. While Hazbin Hotel does have some good scenes it mostly fails at what its trying to do with the characters,story,and possible message/inspiration(Adam is walking proof. He’s an opposing force that most people thought was completely justified in his actions and behavior due to Viziepop confirming that the main cast has killed people or worse and due to being cheated in twice). Hazbin Hotel also was very bad with its pacing in terms of episode release AND story taking 4 years to make an eight episode season(gravity falls did more with less time but to be fair it had more people so a better example is various newgrounds cartoons as they have the least amount of staff but release more frequently. Heck,BFDI does better than all the previous examples!) Meanwhile Dungeon Flippers has just started,seems to have a minuscule amount of staff,but a lot of effort. Unlike hazbin hotel,Dungeon Flippers puts an effort in the characters,making them likable but conflicting(meanwhile hazbin hotels characters are just jerks with double standards). The story seems like it’s gonna be built upon throughout the series as it’s only a pilot so I can’t say much on that. However,I have high hopes with the pacing as it seems to be trying to be one of those “cozy” shows but with a dash of character development and drama. So yeah,thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
I tho that’s why I like Dungeon Flippers. I love animation but “adult” animation is anything but mature. Hazbin wants to talk morality but it Vi doesn’t understand the philosophy of the “mythos” (I am Catholic) and she doesn’t have one to replace it since she seems to have a superficial understanding of what is good and evil, or in Christianity holy and the profane.
@@MrSophire It's a separate take on how the whole Heaven and Hell mythos works. I'm roman Catholic myself, and I can see what Viv's message is in the show. Just because its Heaven, doesn't mean its pure, and just because its Hell doesn't mean its profane. Like, Adam is just a major jerk who fits nicely into Hell, and then there's Charlie, who fits into Heaven. Not to mention the Excorcists, who are bloodthirsty, merciless, maniacs, with the exception of Vaggie, who actually shows mercy. The fact Adam and his Excorcists got into Heaven is beyond me. Then again, we see in Helluva Boss that Cherubs want to save a rich guy who's inventions helped others, but also who's wealth was built off of the hardship and suffering others. It would seem Heaven seems to just pick souls who's good deeds outweight their sins, and even then, Sera herself doesn't even know how souls are filtered between Heaven and Hell
You do realize that the creators of Gravity Falls are not indie creators? They're funded by Disney, arguably the richest company in the world. You're seriously comparing that to Viv's team? Not very fair, is it? They're also doing making two shows, not just one. I will admit that the pacing was problematic, but we have 3 more seasons. I'd rather wait and see if they improve before coming to a final conclusion.
@@Brother_O4TS that’s not excuse for story telling. As a different commenter once said “A true artists does their best with adversity.” And besides,hazbin hotel isn’t indie anymore as it’s own by prime. A million dollar company. Oops.
I think it would be interesting if they played into Cleveland being a dragon. Dragons are known to be greedy. Maybe he does lie a bout a propertry to make a sale. Or what I think would be more intersting is Molly showing him all the money she's been collecting to fix the dungeon and Cleveland's draconic nature takes over and he just can't help himself and he steals it all
His mom owns the agency, if I understand the lore correctly. I'm not sure greed specifically is the draconic angle DF is going for, but I think draconic ambition is definitely an aspect of things, especially in how the Dungeon Flippers agency interacts with rivals and the rest of Splendore
Now we just need to fusion both shows and we will get perfection. I mean, having a real state agent as the "adult in the room" keeping all the hotel character focus while also having jokes that real state agents have no moral values would be just perfect, at least for me that sounds perfectly balanced 😅 or on the other side, a client (like charlie) that wants a hotel to redem sinners and has so much specificafions that Dungeon Flippers had to construct the hotel from the ground
Honestly after seeing _Dungeon Flippers’_ pilot, I’m honestly anticipating more because it’s so simple yet so complex and to me, the plot moves pretty smoothly and isn’t exactly riddled with too many b-plots and all the characters to me are pretty well introduced, and I’m already pretty excited about it possibly being a show and hopefully the show fleshes out its cast if it gets a chance
Thanks for the fantastic pilot recommendation! I hadn't heard of Dungeon Flippers before this video (yt algorithm sucks) but during it gave Dungeon Flippers a watch and fell in LOVE with the concept and characters. Can't wait to see what it becomes!
Thank you for this presentation of your examination! As a novice writer myself, who quickly became....rather obsessed with Hazbin Hotel (And Helluva Boss), I appreciate those who provide an educational experience, in highlighting what the writers did right, and what they could've done better, and what they shouldn't have done at all. I'll say I'm taking mental notes, for my own project.
Spoiler warning! I love Dungeon Flippers so much. At first I thought it was a game being adapted into a series. It is because of a mobile game with similar style. In the beginning to the middle, I watched it and thought it was pretty cool. Spoiler!!!! When the wizard disappeared my emotion just dropped. It was at that scene that I realised the potential of the show. It made me cry a bit, but damn it was worth it. The wizard also connected with me on a really deep level cause of my burn out back then. 9/9 would recommend! P.s: The magic that Molly posses is like the coolest thing!
I think Dungeon Flippers did a fantastic job making the relationship between two people feel believable, I never believed that Charlie and Vaggie had a healthy relationship, it felt just so forced with Charlie constantly not listening to Vaggie and things just happening to work out. I think there was only a single moment that Charlie listened when she suggested they fight together to help them bond and that was it with it being mostly glanced over then back to Charlie being always right. It didn’t feel like a relationship it felt where one just the one talking and the other just listened. Overall a very toxic relationship. With Dungeon Flippers they don’t always agree with each other but they trust each others opinions and are willing to hear each other out and try different things. Even when they get angry at each other they still make up equally and are willing to put their ego aside. The funny thing is you would think the Hazbin Hotel duo that was in a romantic relationship would be more open with one another but it is in fact the business relationship in Dungeon Flippers that feels more real. I think if they can do better with the world building they will do a great job.
I don't understand that part about their goals, wants and needs not being clear. Charlie is a good person at heart. I don't see why she would need a clear reason as to why she wants to save her people. I mean as you said, she wants her father's approval, but it's not the sole reason that guides her. She has a good heart and she wants to do what she feels is right, that's it. She doesn't have a specific reason as to why she wants to try and do the right thing. That's just how she is. As for Maulie, it's her family's dungeon. Imagine if this house that has been synonymous with your family name for countless generations gets destroyed. Does it really need to be explained why someone in the family would want to rebuild it ? It's the heritage of their family, it's part of their history. It's important to them that their heritage stays alive. Once again here, there doesn't to be a specific explaination. She probably wants to do it because it's her family's heritage and heritage is something that matters to her. For both Charlie and Maulie, their reasoning isn't based on a specific want or need, but on their personalities, on who they are as people and on the way they see the world. Does that make sense ? I mean you do make very good and interesting points about how fleshing out why she wants to rebuild it could give her more depth too.
@@user-x7dc2pq7n Okay fair but this is their character introductions. They can let us know this is a part of their personalities and then expand upon why their personalities are this way later on in the season. For a pilot, knowing that this is how their personalities are but not why specifically is enough. At least I think. Not everything about these characters should be revealed in the pilot alone.
I think Roaming Trend's question is more why Real Estate as a profession for Maulie. I'm of the belief that it's a narrative juxtaposition of a large monster trying to buy and sell homes for other monsters and villains. That said, Maulie wanting to find perfect homes for people for their happiness much like herself is satisfying enough reason for me.
because it's not enough for characters to just have those extrinsic motivations. simply put, it is extremely uninteresting and bland for a character to JUST want to help others with no strings attached. every character has some underlying internal reasons for doing something. ESPECIALLY the protagonist of the story. She has to have some kind of internal motivation and goal that stems from that motivation, and a character arc that allows her to grow and learn throughout the story. "She just wants to help people" doesn't cut it. The way I understand her character is that she wants to help others because she wants to prove that she can. That she is capable and deserving of respect and love. I don't think the series goes enough into her internal motivations tbh, or really allows her much time to grow, but I guess that's what 8 episodes with as much crap stuffed in them as possible does to your character writing lmfao.
to be clear side characters don't necessarily need to have super in depth internal motivations. but the characters you're gonna focus on definitely do.
DUNGEON FLIPPERS MENTIONED GRAHHHHHHHHH I LOVE THIS PILOT it genuinely had me hooked with its premise and characfers I can't wait to see more from this story
5:12-5:20 That’s an unfair criticism. She slammed the door on his face because he is a duplicitous murderous sociopath who’s made it big by manipulating and tricking others with deals. She, rightfully so, has a crap ton of hesitancy about letting him in. You spent time criticizing her for being too naive earlier in the video but when she shows wise hesitation she’s also bad?
Yeah overall the assement of character is really biased to Maulie(even the critisicism of why she does what she does feels weak), like charlie isnt the best but her actions have pretty reasonable thoughts behind them. Like how can you compare someone who is essentialy jumping in cold turkey to someone in an established job? Also why use the show alongside the pilot to compare when the hazbin show feels different from the pilot
They have each their own style and mood. To me it’s just about how realistic you want your show to be. With dungeon flippers then the fantasy world could just be replaced with a different country, and or luxurious mansions instead of dungeons. It’s a very grounded story about people with normal jobs working. While Hazbin hotel is more like about the struggle of starting on your dream. She has no prior experience. She has no boss and no education in what she’s trying to do. She’s “fighting” against this big hill of making people believe in the concept. Her actually running the hotel as she intend would at minimum be in season two, probably three
The biggest thing neglected in this comparison is that HBH has unfathomably better raw ANIMATION, both stylistically and technically ViziePop ability to draw that Sakuga just blows everyone else out of the water. And that is ultimatly why her stuff is a viral sensation.
I do wonder what kinda work/life experience Hazbin writers have vs Dungeon Flippers. English is not my first language so my explanation may be a little wonky but here goes nothing - what I mean is that one cannot write a good work comedy if they've never been in a corporative setting. If I wanted to make an animated 'The Office' I'd seek out people who've worked in fast food, retail and a low level office job to write the scripts or at least give me good ideas. I suspect that is something Vivzie lacks - just being out and about in the world and gaining this everyday experience (and some traumas) that translate so well into comedy (real comedy not just endless swearing). I RARELY swear so my colleagues are genuinely shocked/laughing when I do.
My dude, your English is quite literally better than a lot of native english speakers I know, possibly even the majority. Perfect grammar too, I could only dream to write like that in my second language (for now).
Your English is amazing! And you’re completely right , Vivzie has another show called “Helluva Boss” which is like The Office but it’s in hell and they assassinate people in the normal world. That show has the exact problem you’re talking about, it starts very corporate but quickly devolves into something else entirely because Vivzie and the writers lack that experience.
The thing with Charlie is that she thinks she has everything figured out and she thinks she knows what's best for everyone but she doesn't know shht. Just take her conversation with Adam in the first episode, one of her argument is "it must take you a while to travel all the way to hell, so we're really saving you the trouble of coming here". Not only it's really poor, but it's based on nothing. Charlie doesn't seem to talk to anyone or get informed about anything, ever. Her entire plan of sinners being nice enough to be transferred to heaven is based on absolutely nothing. It never happened before - it's not like it happens occasionally and she would try to encourage a mass transfer from hell to heaven. She literally doesn't know. She didn't just came up with a theory and trying to get at least one single soul up there to prove her point first. She lives in her own fantasy land where she's a princess singing disney songs every day. No wonder Lucifer is all "uhhh yeah your hotel hmm yeaahhh...." because he's trying really hard not to tell her it sucks and it's never gonna work.
The 8 episode excuse is pretty flimsy for Hasbin Hotel. Most shows funded by Amazon only get 8 episodes per season and do fine. Hell, The Boys only has 8 episodes per season, but knows where it's going and travels at such a break neck pace to get there that it feels a lot longer. Where the characters are in episode 1 compared to episode 8 is always dramatically different. They have been on one heck of a journey and been changed by it, for better or worse (admittedly mostly worse). In Hazbin they barely seem to go anywhere at all, sniping at each other and having sing offs, until the plot comes politely knocking on their door. So many plot points smash through the same section of wall, the characters start joking about it. But being self-aware about not knowing how to get your characters to interact organically with the plot doesn't make it better. It also annoys me that things only ever work out for Charlie because she's a nepo baby. You think anyone in hell would give her time of day if she wasn't Lucifer's daughter? What does she bring to the table save for an optimistic dream she's literally drawn in crayon? I enjoy the idea of Hasbin and I like quite a few of the songs, but man, does Charlie and the pacing frustrate me no end.
Nah the excuse works well actually. Ah yes The Boys...which has hour long single episodes great comparison lmao. Try a fair comparison, even Invincible another animated series has episodes that are double the lenght. They go all over the pride ring and into Heaven too wdym they barely seem to go anywhere at all? What do you mean by plot points smash through the same section of wall? How does that happen? They don't joke about not interacting and we see them interact organically like in episodes 3 4 5 6 etc. That's not true, how did her helping Angel and Pentious involve her being a nepo baby? I mean some may, people don't even give her time even when she is Lucifer's daughter though. I mean honestly I see someone like Luffy arguably benefitting more from nepotism really. She has a dream and a goal she has proven can work in this season as we see with Pentious.
@@Jdudec367 Sure you could make that excuse, but we have seen that Vivzie is not the best writer as even with her Helluva Boss show it carries the same writing flaws as Hazbin hotel in the way the characters are written and how the plot moves along.
The animation is at the next level, just like the dialog. Dont really understand the story yet so no comment on that but im still sure its good. Nobady invest so much in an animation with no story
I think one of the best things you can do with a pilot is leave story beats somewhat vague You don’t want to completely establish a character just yet , you kind of want people to infer I think sometimes you can tell how confident someone is with a project moving forward by how the pilot tells its story And whether or not, they believe that that story will ever move forward, I looked back to primal and realize that that entire story could’ve been a self-contained thing on its own Perhaps indicating that even the creators thought this might be the only episode we ever get to make Nowadays, you don’t even make a pilot unless you intend to make more So really it’s not so much a pilot as it is episode one or episode zero Essentially, there are two different types of pilots, and depending on which the characters motivations can either be completely established or very hinted at We have the pitch On the other hand, we have the episode zero
I will be honest. As much as I dont like HH Dungeon Flippers felt way too boring to me. In premise, in designs, in worldbuilding. Maybe its all because I personally dont like classic dnd-like fantasy creatures. Imo this is overdone to death. But again. Subjective.
@@RoamingTrend They're more indie web shows, but "Avoid the Void" (by A Kind Remark) and "Dream Catchers" have been delightfully surreal. And heck, some other animation one shots are Tasteful Thickness's "A Blood Moon" and The Sixth Door's "Six Guys" if you feel like watching some stuff that's very RUclips and way better than it has any right to be. Maaaaybe I dug deep enough for you to have not seen this stuff?
I want to add i like that the characters in Dungeon Flippers are very unique in how they look and are shaped etc. Most of the characters in hazbin hotel are all drawn extremely thin and tall and almost all of them wear a suit with a bow tie. I think silhouettes can make a character stand out and recognizable and outfits show a lot about a character's personally.
One thing I think you could have mentioned is the sound design. It is a pretty blatant difference: Hazbin Hotel is full of sound effects and music to the point of being annoying while Dungeon Flippers are almost or even silent at multiple points. I really missed background music and would have loved a bit more sound effects. I also really liked your part about the intros. I didn't even realise how strong the intro was for the Hazbin Hotel pilot. Great video, eagerly waiting for the Lackadaisy video and hoping to maybe see something Murder Drones related from you :)
This was an amazing in depth look into the two shows! I think you hit the nail on the head on Dungeon flippers feeling fresh character wise compared to other shows but lacking that spice that captures the imagination, while on the other hand you got Hazbin Hotel who lacks on pacing and story but is leaps and bounds better in presentation and world building. I am really hoping that Dungeon Flippers gets better with time and they listen to feedback because I absolutely love the two protagonists but it lacks and oomf on more dynamic world building, even if its really just in the background for the first few episodes, and Millie's back story has a lot of potential for emotional moments. They seem to be expanding on the world building on Ep2 so it's really exciting to see where they go!
4:57 'We don't even see the hotel at work' That's because this isn't the point of the pilot. The point of the pilot is to establish the worldbuilding, introducting Charlie's hotel idea, showcasing why no one believes in her idea, and giving us the role of each hotel inhabitant. 6:05 'The more incompetent you make them, the more you have to bend the world to justify their success' I don't know what you mean with this because Charlie pretty much does not succeed in the pilot. The only real 'success' she has is getting the support of a guy who literally tells her he doesn't actually believe in her and only does it for his own personal amusement.
I know it's not the point of the video, but "we don't even see the hotel at work" is a complaint I do have about the actual show, like, post pilot. Much like with Helluva Boss, it feels like the initial concept takes a backseat to overlord/angel drama, and we end up seeing very little of how the hotel functions, much like HB stopped being about IMP and essentially became the "Fizz and Asmodeus show, featuring that red guy with the gun" (thankfully the shorts seem to be putting emphasis back on that aspect, at least).
i mean even in the show we didn’t see much of the hotel at work as far as we know it didn’t work cause the hotel doesn’t know serpentus idk his name sorry they don’t know hes in heaven now, honestly i think the pilot’s way better than the actual show, characters fall bland and the og storry has nothing to do to what we actually see, that’s my same problem with helluva which at this point it’s basically a telenovela
“That’s because it’s not the point of the pilot” then why on earth is it called Hazbin hotel and why does the official series make a big deal out of the hotel being destroyed
i'm interested in the concept of an indie animation with less smooth animation and more still images to save budget. although, if these are pilots i can understand why they would want to show something impressive. just lower the animation for simpler actions and give it to the highlights of the animation. anyway, this actually made me interested in dungeon flippers, i do like the character designs and the dragon character's attitude.
8:33 about charakter motivation. I understand that the viewer wants to know what motivates them to do what these two do. But also i think its good for the story if these motivations come to light litte by little as the story goes on and we learn more about the charakters and the world. Both these series are just at the beginning and have so much to come. Getting all the info about what motivates them right at the start lets no room for suspense if you kno0w what i mean. xD sry my english is not the best but i hope i could explain it ok.
After seeing the preview for the second episode in GlitchX 2024, I think something that would have made the hazbin pilot so much better is restricting the amount of characters. Like the Helluva Boss pilot, how it only shows the small few characters. It tried to rush to get everyone important in and have an explainable background for them- while Dungeon Flippers dropped 4 new characters, with only a little bit of screen time, and made them understandable, believable, and exciting.
While I like 'Dungeon Flippers', 'A Dragon goes house hunting' is my biggest problem with it. 'A Dragon' tells us a lot about the world in the first 5 minutes which includes the intro to the show. Sure, 'A Dragon' has the advantage of having a manga to draw upon, but I feel that's the reason a smaller production like 'Dungeon Flippers' has to go the extra mile when they try to tap into a similar theme. And sure, you might see it as unfair comparing a anime show with a larger budget to something smaller like Dungeon Flippers, but a Conan-style voice over for the intro text would have been nice and animation tricks like a camera moving over a still frame exist.
3:10 Not sure if I agree so far but I gotta compliment her VA for voice line delivery and voice itself, it just, feels unique, it's not squeky or bubbly but also not rough and mean, idk authentic is the word you can use to describe it? 😅
I dont think the Dungeon Flippers pilot was dull at all. I feel it was more selling the charm and set up than the world and lore. If it covered everything you brought up or even part of it, it would have felt cluttered and muddled like the Hasbin Hotel pilot.
Keep in mind where in the episode they made that point. This is more the voice of the adult animation fan, often one who has been around the block more than a few times. In the same vein of one who is in the hypothetical of greenlighting new adult animation series. Novelty is a highly sought after trait, even to the detriment of basic storytelling principles. Its kinda like how Rotten Tomatoes has two different rating scores, which mostly reflects random folks and the people who make a living watching movies ALL THE TIME. A palate is developed when you consume that much media. They also mention how refreshing it is, and I think both is true, it just has some weaknesses here and there. I imagine calling it "dull" after a fair bit of praise is really a kind but firm nudge to say "If you want to get picked up, you're going to need to pander to these folks more." And I think that's fair. It probably would have to see changes to get network money, and if the public narrative were "more visual interest" as opposed to any character or narrative changes, that's literally the best scenario possible. Rather pragmatic, really.
I'm going to be honest, as an amateur writer who's only recently started studying industry works, I use your videos as a general point of reference anytime I'm on the fence about something to weight out the possibilities, since you seem to be able to have a really logical and neutral view on these things.. great video, excited to see more
Idk, Dungeon Flippers houses perhaps feel empty because the homes aren't appropriate for Ace. It isn't until we get to the Void were things get spiced up. An empty world filled by imagination and the prospecting buyer has no discernable imagination on entry. Real Estate for monsters explains why monsters repopulate dungeons.
Honestly the world just seems empty overall, also the idea that a real estate company doesnt theme the places they are trying to sell is really funny to me
@The_Archer-he2ft perhaps they don't theme them because it'd impose on the prospecting buyer's own desires for their dungeons. Keeping the place relatively clear allows the buyer to imagine their own ideas for what to do with the location. Part of that is conveyed in the evil wizard's failing to have his own ideas of what he wanted in a dungeon.
@otterfire4712 i could get that if there was some reason to it, like if the first customer(for the pilot) was a non humanoid/something like a centaur they had places prepped for the imagination thing but humanoids are different since humanoids are always similar in needs like chairs. But to have a (seemingly human) wizard tour an empty castle/troll house/whatever is just bland to watch. Now make hime a lich lord or something like an eldritch horror then i could see why they would need the open space to get creative.
@The_Archer-he2ft several of the locations were property of monsters recently killed or moved out. Odds are, the locations were looted or emptied by the seller.
The way you say it implies that Charlie not knowing what she's doing is a bad thing, but I disagree. It's part of her character. In the show itself, we see that she has no idea how to help the people of Hell, instead doing silly trust exercises and stuff like that. Considering the way it's presented, I'm sure the show will adress this flaw in Charlie's mindset, and will eventually make her grow as a person. The show has a lot of flaws, but Charlie's writing is good if you ask me.
She at least needs to have the qualities that make her success possible. She is too naive for the job she's taking. I think the amazon show made her a bit less childish, but as a viewer, you can only side against Charlie because she has no tangible plan or the mentality for this task. So, any success will appear contrived.
@@RoamingTrend I'm not sure... She can succeed because she's supported by people who know what they're doing, like Alastor. Before he came around, the hotel was failing hard. Because, as you said, she doesn't have the right mentality for this. But she's not doing this alone anymore, and I'm sure that with the right environment and people, she will eventually learn from her flaws. It's not like the writers ignore this aspect of her as if it's not part of a character (which is what a bad writer would do). As I said, it's clear that she has no idea what she's doing, with her trust exercises and everything, so the writers do acknowledge her flaws, and I'm sure they'll clearly adress it eventually. Episode 4 did that a bit already. But I don't think she's truly incompetent. Her approach is flawed, but her good heart did manage to get through to Sir Pentious in episode 2, meaning she can help people get better. She just needs more experience to learn how to do so properly and consistently. It's fine and I'd even say it's good for a character to not be their best self from the start and to need to slowly get there throughout the show.
I'm thinking it's mostly a thing of to her knowledge there's no solid ways that work, pentious was selfless and redeemed but still she doesn't even know he reached heaven. For her it would be trial and error without even knowing if the things that did work actually worked since she can't go up to heaven
23:31 well the info is not important to the viewer but it is to make the world feel like a real world,i mean if something like that was going on behind the sence it would make sense for the news to talk about it especially if the point is to make Charlie embarrassed on tv,and if the hotel situation is bothering angle it's only natural he would talk about it with his pal,it's organic and makes the world realistic in a way,and im some of those situation if we skip that part we skip the whole scene! And notice each time they do this they don't explain the whole things over again they just keep it short
I liked the dungeon flippers pilot, but I felt like it was lacking something. There was no real visual comedy, conflict, or excitement. I hate to say it was boring, and I’m not dissing a show with a more low key plot, but even cartoons with easygoing storylines can make most of their medium. Like you said, there’s no real stakes.
6:45 Its kind of wacky, because are they *her* people? She was born in hell, born to Satan. If anything the humans are in fact her underlings, possibly slaves, or just in general worth less than herself. At least, that would be logical for her perspective. I dont see any reason she should see humans as her equals, even her people. The problem with a lot of vivsiepop's writing is that the implications of things are never thought about, nothing is ever really thought about for more than a second. Its impulsive writing.
Its kinda more likely that she overthought it in this particular case? Charlie was originally just a sinner in the original version of the story arc. That being said, as a princess, there is quite a precedent of claiming a disparate population as "my people" in human history, so...
Charlie considers sinners to her people because her mother is a sinner. While she is disconnected from them, the sinners, Charlie still see herself on some level one of them.
@@Yipper64 cause she's hot? Idk, but there certainly is historical precedent. I mean two princes in English history renounced the crown to marry a commoner.
27:12 something that kind of annoys me personally is that there's elements in modern like actual TV animation that decide to go outside convention, but in all the wrong ways. At least if you ask me. I swear OK. K.O. just thinking its fine if they go horribly off model for entire shots for *no reason* is just annoying.
thank you for that examination of both shows (pilots), that was very educating! personally, i like both shows and i'm not a picker, so i say both are good. I just hope Dungeon Flippers pass the pilot stage and become a full lenght show or a small indie serie like Murder Drones or the Amazing Digital Circus
Looks like you just provoked the wrath of one of the most rabid fandoms on the internet. Hope you’re ready. (DISCLAIMER: I don’t hate all Hellaverse fans. I’ve met plenty that are reasonable. I’ve just noticed that others are some of the most sensitive and zealous fans of a show that I’ve ever seen.)
@@thenightwatchman1598 I hope one day you become emotionally secure enough to realize how silly it was to try to police people's interest like this. When that day comes, just know I forgive that version of you in advance. Pat on the back, have couple of beers, no hard feelings, my dude. Best of luck on your healing journey.
The biggest difference between these two shows is that - with enough direction - Dungeon flippers has the most genuine potential to become an animation staple. While Hazbin Hotel is...Hazbin Hotel.
Someone pointed out in the comments of the pilot that Ace of Wands acts the way he dose is because he represents the negative aspects of the Tarot card he shares a name with. Maulie is shown to embody the positive aspects of that Trump. That could be a real interesting theme for a series, Hazbin has its Goetia, and Flippers could have its Trumps.
23:38 I never watched the actual amazon show but I really hope it was at some point pointed out to Charlie that they *had* that chance. You know, before they died? But given ive heard the ending is someone going from hell to heaven its just... That show is a mess to say the least.
Yeah like from the start, the premice of this show is to redeem these siners in order to stop the massacre that is upon them. But along the show, we see demons unalive themselfs and others. What happens to the demons when they die?! By the end would be logic that when a demon die, it comes back to hell if its not redeemed, which makes the extermination premice pointless and senseless. Or if they're not redeemed, their soul is just.. gone? Not very second chance friendly i would add. If the time on earth is not enought to prove u deserve heaven, why to have limited time in hell as well till u disapear from existence
@@mayor_theo Sinners die only if they're killed by angelic weapons. The exterminators use them to kill sinners, preventing them from coming back. Unless they have angelic steel, when sinners kill each other they'll just regenerate back into hell (they still can get access to angelic weapons but in-universe they are expensive since only one of hell's weapons manufacturers is able to produce them). That's why the exterminations are a problem for people living in hell. If they aren't killed by exterminators then sinners have the potential to live indefinitely. One of the oldest sinners is several hundred years old.
@@mayor_theo The show answers this. The only way to permanentnly kill a demon or angel is with angelic weapons. If a demon dies normally, they come back albeit very painfully. The extermination happens because hell is overpopulated but we find out there's more to it...within the first episode of the actual show.
Hoestly the reason given just feels weak and undermines what the pilot made me think would be the main story of the show, like it just turns the whole premise of the hotel into "we just need to kill the angels" instead of redeeming sinners@@NoMustang273
Ace seems like he's designed to be reoccurring. The Dr. Draken or Ice King of the show except he's just a guy that they perpetually can't find a home for.
Difference between this show and Hazbin is that this show has far more potential and already seems to have far superior writing than Hazbin with the way the story is going. However we can't be sure yet as there is only one episode out atm. I have high hopes and I truly hope that this series can shine in the world of indie animation.
I mean, does it really? It is interesting, but when just placing the pilots next together Hazbin would win in my eyes. Doesnt mean the show couldnt succeed over Hazbin but everything about the DF pilot felt flat to me
I just realized I grew up with Adventure Time and Regular Show while this newer generation has Hazbin Hotel and Skibidi Toilet as options Im not saying the 2000-10’s didn’t have brain rot but it was Uncle Grandpa, Xavier Renegade Angle, and Garry’s mod I feel like while I had Mostly good shows with some brain rot that was still good these kids have mostly shit shows with the occasional good show like smiling friends or inside job but like come on those aren’t exactly kids shows but come on who didn’t watch South Park or Aqua Team Hunger Force when they probably shouldn’t have but can’t they get something like Ninjago, Courage the Cowardly Dog, or hell Chowder? It just feels like with the move to more streaming oriented tv we lost the Saturday or afternoon cartoon for more “mature cartoons” that are actually more immature because “haha sex funny laugh why aren’t you laughing?” Even something more recent like Infinity Train or Hilda I think it’s called. I don’t know I could be completely wrong maybe I just don’t see more kid oriented cartoons because I’m older but it just feels like kids get RUclips or “mature cartoons” and this comment made me realize Cartoon Network had so many good one shot cartoons like there was this one about two friends at a summer camp I think I remember really liking it but I can’t remember the name for the life of me.
There is still a lot of good cartoons for kids nowadays, though Fairly Oddparents: A New Wish, Bluey, Tales Of The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Pokemon, i didn't watch much of Lego Dreamzzz but i enjoyed what i saw, etc Its also super easy to watch older shows nowadays, which means kids can watch shows previous generations watched, like for example, Sonic X, Danny Phantom, any of the previous tmnt and power rangers shows, batman the animated series, ben 10 etc Brainrot is still the minority when it comes to kids content nowadays, its just more noticeable because everyone wont shut up about it
@@SodaFrizz666 for the simple reason that it didn’t try to be mature it knew what it was and it was hilarious the hell sandwich and the one where Shake gets plastic surgery probably have to be my favorite episodes
The sad part is that Hasbin Hotel is not even suposed to be for children and Viv said that before, yet children are still a large component of her fanbase, which makes sense since her series is imature as the ones for children, but has components that are not for children like the action being held in literal HELL. It's sad cuz they think they're mature for watching it, yet there're a lot of amazing "kid's" shows that can be enjoyed by any age, that tell good stories and messages and children chose/ have to grow up with Hasbin hotel.
@@mayor_theo the only one to blame there is the parents, not the kids or viv. The only reason kids know about stuff like hazbin or helluva boss is because they have zero supervised internet access. It's like complaining that a Saw movie traumatized your kid, and blaming the people who made the movie, despite there being like a million warning signs telling you that it wasn't for kids.
The thing with hazbin hotel is not that it's to clutter it's not it's fast pace that's is writing style so one can't call it a sin but it does make it so it might not be a show for everyone but i think they fixed that with the mystery and story that gets people hooked,over all hazbin hotel fills like it's on a suger rush with doesn't mess with the quality of the show but their are most where you need wound down sooo the over one is kinda suger free which is freshening untill you watch the show and realize,what he said 👆 15:39 a mix of hazbin hotel and the vide of this show would be real nice but right now theirs not really much going with it for me to really want that,but again its the start of the show
@@AshyFeller Lol. They didnt selled that to me... not for laking a ton of stereotypes of TV couples, no plis. Just, I also fell that sort of suport. Or maybe more of a sisterhood on the intimacy and chivralry and loyalty on their goal. Now vouples can have that too, just on them considering how they potray other characters having crushes it's almost invisible.
Our culture is so abjectly horrified by the concept of emotional incest that people get flack for mere observations of unhealthy dynemics. I daresay it seems more taboo than actual incest, when we have political figures defending first cousin marriage. (America is not a serious country, its 50 entities and unwilling stragglers in a trench coat) But its absolutely correct to describe Vaggie and Charlie's relationship as weirdly motherly, especially *when the show itself* does so by giving her a duet with Carmine, with them singing about protecting their girlfriend and actual children, respectively. I mean, come on.
@@Birdsflight44 I guess I didn't communicate my full thoughts. Yes, the relationship is weird. I didn't think of it that hard before. America is a joke. (Trust me, I know probably better than most people.)
nice analogy i watch both and all I can say is hazbin hotel has allot of art and world building but story is going over the place time to time and I feel between vizziepop helluva boss and hazbin hotel I much rather watch helluva because the story, conflict, and there world building is better, on the other hand dungeon flipper is bland with potential that need spice, the story is good but fleshing it out need some work and on top of that the world building needs to be reasonable and good to make it somewhat interesting and hopefully if they can make some backstory( I think flashbacks in each episode to make it a fun puzzle for every to theorize) that my opinion and hopefully these two can fix this issue to make it a good series
I was very exited for Dungeon Flippers. It seemed right up my alley. Fantasy comedy with a satirical nature. Fun! What i got was a bland, boring pilot, with boring characters, boring designs and... even the voice actors sounded bored. They sound so disinterrested in playing a character. It feels soulless.
Yeah the delivieries did not sound like people genuinely pushing to sell a house, they just sounded like they were going through the motions, plus the idea they are showing bare rooms to a humanoid is strange. Like make him non humanoid/a lich or something if you want to make me think he would have any interest in an empty castle without even a throne(like maulie envisions for no one but the audience)
finally a hazbin review i 100% agree with. Vivize made great characters and universe. but here lack of writing skill made it not as good as it could be
Also, finally i can enjoy a good quality wholesome show after what felt like ages of albeit good quality gorefests with depressing tones and everything being depressive for once
Roaming Trend, dude, have you heard of the indie animated cartoon called Sublo and Tangy Mustard? It doesn’t get enough love and it’s been going for nine years now.
many consider the hazbin pilot better than the actual series, so I'll leave my final judgement until flippers is fully out, tho I do have more hope for it
The biggest difference between Charlie and Maulie is that in the latter's case, the people of Splendor seem to have faith in Maul's ability to sell dungeons and castles to those in need of one.
Meanwhile, everyone in Hell outright mocks Charlie's desire to change sinners; mainly for the fact they believe that once you're dead and in Hell, there's no going back
It’s not just that everyone believes Hell is the end of the road. It’s also that Charlie’s method of expressing her ideas and trying to put them into practice is extremely childish.
Canonically she’s 200-ish years old and using hand darwn pictures made of crayon to try and sell her ideas to people.
@@mando7346 Right
That's also a factor at play on the whole thing...but would it be better if she were mean, ruthless and cruel like Alastor in her methods?
@@SilverScribe85 No. But she does need to change her method of expressing her ideas to people. Charlie doesn’t understand her audience nor does it feel like she’s all that aware of this fact.
If she wants people to listen to her. Charlie needs to learn how to explain herself in a way that doesn’t look like a eight year old came up with it.
@@mando7346 In other words, no singing and build up her confidence
@@SilverScribe85 That would be a great start, yes.
I like the cooking chicken analogy to compare the pilots:
Dungeon Flippers- a bit bland, needs a little more seasoning
Hazbin Hotel- too much seasoning, can barely taste the chicken
I'd go so far as to say may not even _be_ a chicken. The plot from the pilot and the plot we got are nearly two completely different things
@@Cardinal_claw Definitely not chicken and probably scrap meat that's been picked up from the landfill.💀
@@Cardinal_claw Vivziepop's biggest weakness as a writer is and has always been a complete inability to murder her darlings. So when she asked for 24 episode seasons and got 8 episode seasons instead, rather than respect the imposed limitation and change her planned story outline accordingly, she crammed *all* of her original ideas for season one into the allotted 176 minutes.
It's also why Season 2 of Helluva Boss has such a mixed reception compared to Season 1. Vivziepop didn't really go into Helluva Boss with a clearly defined plan beyond each individual episode. It was only after the series grew beyond being a simple side project for Hazbin Hotel into a massively popular IP in its own right that she came up with one. And so she decided to turn the show from an episodic black comedy into a serialized dramatic character study because that's what she does. She doesn't think of whether an idea fits into a cohesive story she just thinks of something she finds neat and runs with it.
@@HunterStiles651 A couple of things 1. her planned story did change and a lot of the original ideas for season one got cut including main characters. So that isn't really true and she can murder her darlings.
That doesn't make sense I mean even in season 1 there are signs of setting up for future plots, so something didn't change in season 2, so that doesn't explain a more mixed rececpton with season 2. She does think whether an idea fits into a cohesive story hell that serialized dramatic character study stuff has been a thing since episode 2. She doesn't just thinks of something she finds neat and runs with it, she changed plan accordingly, have you seen Adventure Time before or? Cause that show changed it's focus too and people love it.
I was just about to make a chicken analogy lmao
Most "mature" shows are just political satire, so it makes sense why both of these stand out while still being "mature" and dealing with "mature" things. Hazbin Hotel is one end of the "mature cartoon" spectrum, being extremely immature to the point of exhaustion and nauseation. Just watching the characters go between being redrawn every frame to just being rotated around feels like a FlipaClip animation. On the other end of the "mature cartoon" spectrum is Dungeon Flippers, being extremely mature to the point of putting the viewer to sleep. Obviously that's hyperbolic, but there's a reason why there aren't a lot of shows about people selling houses. That's just a very "mature" job, and it's hard to make that -EXCITING for the audience.
What if they made Dungeon Flippers a few minute shorts?
I wonder if it was inspired by Hazbin, but taking notes on what NOT to do? I know it’s usually coincidental, but it’s something I thought of as a possibility
@@mysryuzaCould be. But they forgot what MAKES a show entertaining. While yes, Hazbin is immature. But it ain't Boring and makes you sleepy
Dear god....I heart you just say how mature this very mature thing handles it's mature topic maturely...like can you get to the point already? How is Hazbin immature? How is Dungeon Flippers extremely mature? What makes something a mature job? Is a rehabilation center not a mature job?
I'll watch both, they balance each others well. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
I dont think the show needs to push the two main protagonists more or to an overly dramatic extend
not every show needs to be a world ending threat or their like
Let them climb the ranks of their profession and in the end find the perfect home for the Dungon Master of this Universe. That would be nice. Wholesome and finally just not exhausting like every show seems to be these days.
Its amazing when people have fun with these high stake storys and enjoy them. But for me, i just grown numb to them. I want simple fantastical storys, with simple fantastical solutions. A way for the protagonists to work and live throught their trauma and come out by the end a better person, without needing to save the world in the first place
Thats the biggest flaw in my eyes for the over saturated market these days. everyone wants to make his hero the ultimate hero
Frieren somehwat countered that narrtive, because yes. While she was instrumental in saveing the World with Himmel, the show just shows you that live goes on and in the end she is just an elf. with her own motives, desires, abilities, dreams, wishes and problems. And thats why it caught so many people
its a fantastical story for simple men
Doesnt need to be anything more than that
Well, im not against any world ending threat as long as it doesn't removes main point of show - dungeons
(Unlike in hazbin hotel where the threat was getting all attention to itself, basically there's no hotel, only hazbin)
It makes sense Charlie has no actual plans, since she's a nepo baby princess of hell. She didn't need skills to get that hotel.
Yeah, I see this as a strength of Hazbin- so much of her childish cluelessness comes from her being so untouchable. Her level of nepotism is literally ordained by God- that she is immune to culling because of her parentage.
The problem is that the show doesn't take the time to highlight this fact in a meaningful way, but it would be basically... incorrect lorewise if it weren't this way.
This is actually completely true imo. I think that alone sets up the path meant for her growth as a character
I really wish someone in-universe had called out Charlie for her privilege and naiveté.
She has this insane goal that she has no idea how to achieve and expects everyone else to agree and be on board even though she has absolutely no proof it works.
She honestly seems more concerned with proving she's right than actually helping anyone. I don't think she even knows any of the Sinners' real names, apart from Alastor. Making her prideful and more concerned with being right could've been an interesting character flaw, but the show keeps validating her.
Charlie is like the Hell equivalent of a "white savior". She's a privileged person acting on behalf of an underprivileged group, but she's more motivated by ego than altruism.
She wants the satisfaction of helping people, but doesn't put in much effort to really get to know them.
Don't even ask where she got that 50k.
Make sense, since she's the creator's SI
What I like about Dungeon Flippers is that there is no intellectual pretense behind it.
The show just wants to be a fun and exciting ride for the viewers to enjoy.
Pilot for Hazbin Hotel was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much greater than the show.
Looking back at it... damn, in comparison the Pilot still stands out, and even more considering I couldn't take ANYTHING seriously in the Prime Series.
There was a early version of the script that got out that showcased how neutered it got due to the runtime among other things. Shame. The original was a fair bit better. Hopefully it can recover from that stumble in the following seasons. Otherwise I think it's going to fall out of relevancy as more indie projects get support.
That’s because they were written by different people. The pilot was (allegedly) written by Kendraws. While the show I assume was written my Vivziepop
The Hazbin Hotel pilot was like the milk I left on the kitchen counter for days. Aged Poorly. If you want an ACTUAL good pilot check out the first episode of the Castle Series from Oscar Johansson.
I like the show
4:21 I mean it kinda makes sense, the show and the pilot seem to heavily hint that Charlie, quite literally decided to do this hotel thing on a whim, hence why hotel looked so run down before Alistor chipped in.
I think the REAL question is why Vaggie didn't intervene, she seems like her manager and yet she had no issues with Charlie's hotel? And Charlie had NO money as a ROYALTY to give to Vaggie to renovate??? 😅
14:51 Fax
Vaggie doesn't have any experience running a hotel either. what exactly was she supposed to do?
In my opinion,I would say Dungeon Flippers has the most potential out of all them. While Hazbin Hotel does have some good scenes it mostly fails at what its trying to do with the characters,story,and possible message/inspiration(Adam is walking proof. He’s an opposing force that most people thought was completely justified in his actions and behavior due to Viziepop confirming that the main cast has killed people or worse and due to being cheated in twice).
Hazbin Hotel also was very bad with its pacing in terms of episode release AND story taking 4 years to make an eight episode season(gravity falls did more with less time but to be fair it had more people so a better example is various newgrounds cartoons as they have the least amount of staff but release more frequently. Heck,BFDI does better than all the previous examples!)
Meanwhile Dungeon Flippers has just started,seems to have a minuscule amount of staff,but a lot of effort. Unlike hazbin hotel,Dungeon Flippers puts an effort in the characters,making them likable but conflicting(meanwhile hazbin hotels characters are just jerks with double standards). The story seems like it’s gonna be built upon throughout the series as it’s only a pilot so I can’t say much on that. However,I have high hopes with the pacing as it seems to be trying to be one of those “cozy” shows but with a dash of character development and drama.
So yeah,thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
I tho that’s why I like Dungeon Flippers. I love animation but “adult” animation is anything but mature. Hazbin wants to talk morality but it Vi doesn’t understand the philosophy of the “mythos” (I am Catholic) and she doesn’t have one to replace it since she seems to have a superficial understanding of what is good and evil, or in Christianity holy and the profane.
@@MrSophire
It's a separate take on how the whole Heaven and Hell mythos works. I'm roman Catholic myself, and I can see what Viv's message is in the show. Just because its Heaven, doesn't mean its pure, and just because its Hell doesn't mean its profane. Like, Adam is just a major jerk who fits nicely into Hell, and then there's Charlie, who fits into Heaven. Not to mention the Excorcists, who are bloodthirsty, merciless, maniacs, with the exception of Vaggie, who actually shows mercy. The fact Adam and his Excorcists got into Heaven is beyond me. Then again, we see in Helluva Boss that Cherubs want to save a rich guy who's inventions helped others, but also who's wealth was built off of the hardship and suffering others. It would seem Heaven seems to just pick souls who's good deeds outweight their sins, and even then, Sera herself doesn't even know how souls are filtered between Heaven and Hell
You do realize that the creators of Gravity Falls are not indie creators? They're funded by Disney, arguably the richest company in the world. You're seriously comparing that to Viv's team? Not very fair, is it? They're also doing making two shows, not just one.
I will admit that the pacing was problematic, but we have 3 more seasons. I'd rather wait and see if they improve before coming to a final conclusion.
@@Brother_O4TS I already said that. Read the whole thing.
@@Brother_O4TS that’s not excuse for story telling. As a different commenter once said “A true artists does their best with adversity.” And besides,hazbin hotel isn’t indie anymore as it’s own by prime. A million dollar company. Oops.
I think it would be interesting if they played into Cleveland being a dragon. Dragons are known to be greedy. Maybe he does lie a bout a propertry to make a sale. Or what I think would be more intersting is Molly showing him all the money she's been collecting to fix the dungeon and Cleveland's draconic nature takes over and he just can't help himself and he steals it all
His mom owns the agency, if I understand the lore correctly.
I'm not sure greed specifically is the draconic angle DF is going for, but I think draconic ambition is definitely an aspect of things, especially in how the Dungeon Flippers agency interacts with rivals and the rest of Splendore
Now we just need to fusion both shows and we will get perfection. I mean, having a real state agent as the "adult in the room" keeping all the hotel character focus while also having jokes that real state agents have no moral values would be just perfect, at least for me that sounds perfectly balanced 😅 or on the other side, a client (like charlie) that wants a hotel to redem sinners and has so much specificafions that Dungeon Flippers had to construct the hotel from the ground
Interesting crossover idea actually
@@Jdudec367 Thanks ❤
Do you know What indie animation has the strengths of both MONKEEEEYYY WREEENCH ARRRRGGGGHHHH
@@martinlorca2024 No problem! ^ ^
Honestly after seeing _Dungeon Flippers’_ pilot, I’m honestly anticipating more because it’s so simple yet so complex and to me, the plot moves pretty smoothly and isn’t exactly riddled with too many b-plots and all the characters to me are pretty well introduced, and I’m already pretty excited about it possibly being a show and hopefully the show fleshes out its cast if it gets a chance
Maulie is freaking adorable, like how Charlie was before the Amazon version
Yeah.. I miss Pilot Charlie.. she was really lovable and someone to care about their goal
@@thomasramirez5132 Ugh you pilot fans are so annoying
@@MatthewMurdock-cq8xu Cool story, bro
Charlie is still adorable even now in my opinion.
Like how Charlie is*
Fixed it for you
Thanks for the fantastic pilot recommendation! I hadn't heard of Dungeon Flippers before this video (yt algorithm sucks) but during it gave Dungeon Flippers a watch and fell in LOVE with the concept and characters. Can't wait to see what it becomes!
Thank you for this presentation of your examination!
As a novice writer myself, who quickly became....rather obsessed with Hazbin Hotel (And Helluva Boss), I appreciate those who provide an educational experience, in highlighting what the writers did right, and what they could've done better, and what they shouldn't have done at all.
I'll say I'm taking mental notes, for my own project.
I reccommend looking into local scriptman and Terrible Writing Advice. They are by far one of the best in this field (in my opinion).
Spoiler warning!
I love Dungeon Flippers so much. At first I thought it was a game being adapted into a series. It is because of a mobile game with similar style. In the beginning to the middle, I watched it and thought it was pretty cool.
Spoiler!!!!
When the wizard disappeared my emotion just dropped. It was at that scene that I realised the potential of the show. It made me cry a bit, but damn it was worth it. The wizard also connected with me on a really deep level cause of my burn out back then.
9/9 would recommend!
P.s: The magic that Molly posses is like the coolest thing!
We are so back.
kept us waiting, huh?
Hazbin aint.
oh screw you, if you have to drag another show through the mud to praise this one then your praise is backhanded and hollow.
@@Randomyoutuber-4831I praise both and drag both through the mud.
@Randomyoutuber-4831 Were you that decisive to post such a fallacious argument without bothering to fully watch his video?
I think Dungeon Flippers did a fantastic job making the relationship between two people feel believable, I never believed that Charlie and Vaggie had a healthy relationship, it felt just so forced with Charlie constantly not listening to Vaggie and things just happening to work out. I think there was only a single moment that Charlie listened when she suggested they fight together to help them bond and that was it with it being mostly glanced over then back to Charlie being always right. It didn’t feel like a relationship it felt where one just the one talking and the other just listened. Overall a very toxic relationship.
With Dungeon Flippers they don’t always agree with each other but they trust each others opinions and are willing to hear each other out and try different things. Even when they get angry at each other they still make up equally and are willing to put their ego aside. The funny thing is you would think the Hazbin Hotel duo that was in a romantic relationship would be more open with one another but it is in fact the business relationship in Dungeon Flippers that feels more real. I think if they can do better with the world building they will do a great job.
Your oc actually fit in the dungeon flipper quite well
I don't understand that part about their goals, wants and needs not being clear.
Charlie is a good person at heart. I don't see why she would need a clear reason as to why she wants to save her people. I mean as you said, she wants her father's approval, but it's not the sole reason that guides her. She has a good heart and she wants to do what she feels is right, that's it. She doesn't have a specific reason as to why she wants to try and do the right thing. That's just how she is.
As for Maulie, it's her family's dungeon. Imagine if this house that has been synonymous with your family name for countless generations gets destroyed. Does it really need to be explained why someone in the family would want to rebuild it ? It's the heritage of their family, it's part of their history. It's important to them that their heritage stays alive.
Once again here, there doesn't to be a specific explaination. She probably wants to do it because it's her family's heritage and heritage is something that matters to her. For both Charlie and Maulie, their reasoning isn't based on a specific want or need, but on their personalities, on who they are as people and on the way they see the world. Does that make sense ?
I mean you do make very good and interesting points about how fleshing out why she wants to rebuild it could give her more depth too.
@@user-x7dc2pq7n Okay fair but this is their character introductions. They can let us know this is a part of their personalities and then expand upon why their personalities are this way later on in the season. For a pilot, knowing that this is how their personalities are but not why specifically is enough. At least I think. Not everything about these characters should be revealed in the pilot alone.
I think Roaming Trend's question is more why Real Estate as a profession for Maulie.
I'm of the belief that it's a narrative juxtaposition of a large monster trying to buy and sell homes for other monsters and villains. That said, Maulie wanting to find perfect homes for people for their happiness much like herself is satisfying enough reason for me.
because it's not enough for characters to just have those extrinsic motivations. simply put, it is extremely uninteresting and bland for a character to JUST want to help others with no strings attached. every character has some underlying internal reasons for doing something. ESPECIALLY the protagonist of the story. She has to have some kind of internal motivation and goal that stems from that motivation, and a character arc that allows her to grow and learn throughout the story. "She just wants to help people" doesn't cut it.
The way I understand her character is that she wants to help others because she wants to prove that she can. That she is capable and deserving of respect and love. I don't think the series goes enough into her internal motivations tbh, or really allows her much time to grow, but I guess that's what 8 episodes with as much crap stuffed in them as possible does to your character writing lmfao.
to be clear side characters don't necessarily need to have super in depth internal motivations. but the characters you're gonna focus on definitely do.
DUNGEON FLIPPERS MENTIONED GRAHHHHHHHHH
I LOVE THIS PILOT it genuinely had me hooked with its premise and characfers
I can't wait to see more from this story
5:12-5:20 That’s an unfair criticism. She slammed the door on his face because he is a duplicitous murderous sociopath who’s made it big by manipulating and tricking others with deals. She, rightfully so, has a crap ton of hesitancy about letting him in. You spent time criticizing her for being too naive earlier in the video but when she shows wise hesitation she’s also bad?
Finally someone mentions the explanation to her behavior, it was literally explained like 5 seconds later too
Yeah overall the assement of character is really biased to Maulie(even the critisicism of why she does what she does feels weak), like charlie isnt the best but her actions have pretty reasonable thoughts behind them. Like how can you compare someone who is essentialy jumping in cold turkey to someone in an established job? Also why use the show alongside the pilot to compare when the hazbin show feels different from the pilot
OOF! its like a night and day difference. great to see you back to making real uploads.
What a great analysis! Thank you Trend. Time to watch Dungeon Flippers 🏰
Glad you enjoyed!
They have each their own style and mood. To me it’s just about how realistic you want your show to be. With dungeon flippers then the fantasy world could just be replaced with a different country, and or luxurious mansions instead of dungeons. It’s a very grounded story about people with normal jobs working. While Hazbin hotel is more like about the struggle of starting on your dream. She has no prior experience. She has no boss and no education in what she’s trying to do. She’s “fighting” against this big hill of making people believe in the concept. Her actually running the hotel as she intend would at minimum be in season two, probably three
Can you talk about lackadaisy next? Since you compared Dungeon Flippers to Hazbin Hotel, maybe you can examine Lackadaisy writing too?
The biggest thing neglected in this comparison is that HBH has unfathomably better raw ANIMATION, both stylistically and technically ViziePop ability to draw that Sakuga just blows everyone else out of the water. And that is ultimatly why her stuff is a viral sensation.
I do wonder what kinda work/life experience Hazbin writers have vs Dungeon Flippers. English is not my first language so my explanation may be a little wonky but here goes nothing - what I mean is that one cannot write a good work comedy if they've never been in a corporative setting. If I wanted to make an animated 'The Office' I'd seek out people who've worked in fast food, retail and a low level office job to write the scripts or at least give me good ideas. I suspect that is something Vivzie lacks - just being out and about in the world and gaining this everyday experience (and some traumas) that translate so well into comedy (real comedy not just endless swearing). I RARELY swear so my colleagues are genuinely shocked/laughing when I do.
My dude, your English is quite literally better than a lot of native english speakers I know, possibly even the majority. Perfect grammar too, I could only dream to write like that in my second language (for now).
Your English is phenomenal
Your English is amazing!
And you’re completely right , Vivzie has another show called “Helluva Boss” which is like The Office but it’s in hell and they assassinate people in the normal world.
That show has the exact problem you’re talking about, it starts very corporate but quickly devolves into something else entirely because Vivzie and the writers lack that experience.
Damn, this video was the best and the examples and complementary cut out scenes were a nice touch
My mom was super into realtor shows for a long time, so when I showed her this, she loved it a lot.
The thing with Charlie is that she thinks she has everything figured out and she thinks she knows what's best for everyone but she doesn't know shht. Just take her conversation with Adam in the first episode, one of her argument is "it must take you a while to travel all the way to hell, so we're really saving you the trouble of coming here". Not only it's really poor, but it's based on nothing. Charlie doesn't seem to talk to anyone or get informed about anything, ever.
Her entire plan of sinners being nice enough to be transferred to heaven is based on absolutely nothing. It never happened before - it's not like it happens occasionally and she would try to encourage a mass transfer from hell to heaven. She literally doesn't know. She didn't just came up with a theory and trying to get at least one single soul up there to prove her point first. She lives in her own fantasy land where she's a princess singing disney songs every day.
No wonder Lucifer is all "uhhh yeah your hotel hmm yeaahhh...." because he's trying really hard not to tell her it sucks and it's never gonna work.
Dungeon Flippers is a charming idea
The 8 episode excuse is pretty flimsy for Hasbin Hotel. Most shows funded by Amazon only get 8 episodes per season and do fine. Hell, The Boys only has 8 episodes per season, but knows where it's going and travels at such a break neck pace to get there that it feels a lot longer. Where the characters are in episode 1 compared to episode 8 is always dramatically different. They have been on one heck of a journey and been changed by it, for better or worse (admittedly mostly worse).
In Hazbin they barely seem to go anywhere at all, sniping at each other and having sing offs, until the plot comes politely knocking on their door. So many plot points smash through the same section of wall, the characters start joking about it. But being self-aware about not knowing how to get your characters to interact organically with the plot doesn't make it better. It also annoys me that things only ever work out for Charlie because she's a nepo baby. You think anyone in hell would give her time of day if she wasn't Lucifer's daughter? What does she bring to the table save for an optimistic dream she's literally drawn in crayon? I enjoy the idea of Hasbin and I like quite a few of the songs, but man, does Charlie and the pacing frustrate me no end.
Nah the excuse works well actually. Ah yes The Boys...which has hour long single episodes great comparison lmao. Try a fair comparison, even Invincible another animated series has episodes that are double the lenght.
They go all over the pride ring and into Heaven too wdym they barely seem to go anywhere at all? What do you mean by plot points smash through the same section of wall? How does that happen? They don't joke about not interacting and we see them interact organically like in episodes 3 4 5 6 etc. That's not true, how did her helping Angel and Pentious involve her being a nepo baby? I mean some may, people don't even give her time even when she is Lucifer's daughter though. I mean honestly I see someone like Luffy arguably benefitting more from nepotism really. She has a dream and a goal she has proven can work in this season as we see with Pentious.
@@Jdudec367 Sure you could make that excuse, but we have seen that Vivzie is not the best writer as even with her Helluva Boss show it carries the same writing flaws as Hazbin hotel in the way the characters are written and how the plot moves along.
@@ZekDraco She isn't a bad writer though and eh...no Helluva Boss has it's own issues really. Although the characters are mostly written well really.
@ You look at Stolas and tell me he’s written well-
@@ZekDraco Ok I'm doig that lol.
What is your thoughts on lackadaisy pilot
The animation is at the next level, just like the dialog. Dont really understand the story yet so no comment on that but im still sure its good. Nobady invest so much in an animation with no story
I think one of the best things you can do with a pilot is leave story beats somewhat vague
You don’t want to completely establish a character just yet , you kind of want people to infer
I think sometimes you can tell how confident someone is with a project moving forward by how the pilot tells its story
And whether or not, they believe that that story will ever move forward, I looked back to primal and realize that that entire story could’ve been a self-contained thing on its own
Perhaps indicating that even the creators thought this might be the only episode we ever get to make
Nowadays, you don’t even make a pilot unless you intend to make more
So really it’s not so much a pilot as it is episode one or episode zero
Essentially, there are two different types of pilots, and depending on which the characters motivations can either be completely established or very hinted at
We have the pitch
On the other hand, we have the episode zero
Style over Substance
Image is Everything
Break the Rules
Wait ,Hazbin Hotel is Written on the Rules of Cyber Punk?
I will be honest. As much as I dont like HH Dungeon Flippers felt way too boring to me. In premise, in designs, in worldbuilding. Maybe its all because I personally dont like classic dnd-like fantasy creatures. Imo this is overdone to death.
But again. Subjective.
That is the concern I had, too. One is too excited and crazy the other is too slow and tame. That's why I found this fascinating.
@@RoamingTrend
They're more indie web shows, but "Avoid the Void" (by A Kind Remark) and "Dream Catchers" have been delightfully surreal.
And heck, some other animation one shots are Tasteful Thickness's "A Blood Moon" and The Sixth Door's "Six Guys" if you feel like watching some stuff that's very RUclips and way better than it has any right to be.
Maaaaybe I dug deep enough for you to have not seen this stuff?
@@Birdsflight44DREAM CATCHERS MENTIONED???
It could be fun as some sort of spoof show, like those house flipper shows HGTV loves but doesnt have much ground beyond that
While I know what you mean, calling Vaggie Charlie's "found mom" is kinda crazy, like dawg they scissor at night
I want to add i like that the characters in Dungeon Flippers are very unique in how they look and are shaped etc. Most of the characters in hazbin hotel are all drawn extremely thin and tall and almost all of them wear a suit with a bow tie. I think silhouettes can make a character stand out and recognizable and outfits show a lot about a character's personally.
Maulie is like if Charlie was actually a good character and df is like if hh was a good show
One thing I think you could have mentioned is the sound design. It is a pretty blatant difference: Hazbin Hotel is full of sound effects and music to the point of being annoying while Dungeon Flippers are almost or even silent at multiple points. I really missed background music and would have loved a bit more sound effects.
I also really liked your part about the intros. I didn't even realise how strong the intro was for the Hazbin Hotel pilot. Great video, eagerly waiting for the Lackadaisy video and hoping to maybe see something Murder Drones related from you :)
Yeah DF couldve used a whimsical flute or something over the dead air in scenes like the bridge house
I was not expecting a Tiny Epic Quest reference in there
This was an amazing in depth look into the two shows! I think you hit the nail on the head on Dungeon flippers feeling fresh character wise compared to other shows but lacking that spice that captures the imagination, while on the other hand you got Hazbin Hotel who lacks on pacing and story but is leaps and bounds better in presentation and world building.
I am really hoping that Dungeon Flippers gets better with time and they listen to feedback because I absolutely love the two protagonists but it lacks and oomf on more dynamic world building, even if its really just in the background for the first few episodes, and Millie's back story has a lot of potential for emotional moments.
They seem to be expanding on the world building on Ep2 so it's really exciting to see where they go!
I love Dungeon Flippers so much I love how simple the plot was
4:57 'We don't even see the hotel at work'
That's because this isn't the point of the pilot. The point of the pilot is to establish the worldbuilding, introducting Charlie's hotel idea, showcasing why no one believes in her idea, and giving us the role of each hotel inhabitant.
6:05 'The more incompetent you make them, the more you have to bend the world to justify their success'
I don't know what you mean with this because Charlie pretty much does not succeed in the pilot. The only real 'success' she has is getting the support of a guy who literally tells her he doesn't actually believe in her and only does it for his own personal amusement.
I know it's not the point of the video, but "we don't even see the hotel at work" is a complaint I do have about the actual show, like, post pilot. Much like with Helluva Boss, it feels like the initial concept takes a backseat to overlord/angel drama, and we end up seeing very little of how the hotel functions, much like HB stopped being about IMP and essentially became the "Fizz and Asmodeus show, featuring that red guy with the gun" (thankfully the shorts seem to be putting emphasis back on that aspect, at least).
@@LucasCaminha Literally in what way is Helluva Boss the 'Fizz and Asmodeus show'?
i mean even in the show we didn’t see much of the hotel at work as far as we know it didn’t work cause the hotel doesn’t know serpentus idk his name sorry they don’t know hes in heaven now, honestly i think the pilot’s way better than the actual show, characters fall bland and the og storry has nothing to do to what we actually see, that’s my same problem with helluva which at this point it’s basically a telenovela
@@mosololopo The fact that Sir Pentious is in heaven is quite literally proof that the hotel works.
“That’s because it’s not the point of the pilot” then why on earth is it called Hazbin hotel and why does the official series make a big deal out of the hotel being destroyed
Good video it gave me a lot to think about with my own pilot
i'm interested in the concept of an indie animation with less smooth animation and more still images to save budget. although, if these are pilots i can understand why they would want to show something impressive. just lower the animation for simpler actions and give it to the highlights of the animation.
anyway, this actually made me interested in dungeon flippers, i do like the character designs and the dragon character's attitude.
then you would like Epithet Erased
@@Radicalbeast nah, i was thinking more like anime, more specifically 70s anime.
8:33 about charakter motivation. I understand that the viewer wants to know what motivates them to do what these two do. But also i think its good for the story if these motivations come to light litte by little as the story goes on and we learn more about the charakters and the world. Both these series are just at the beginning and have so much to come. Getting all the info about what motivates them right at the start lets no room for suspense if you kno0w what i mean. xD sry my english is not the best but i hope i could explain it ok.
20:17 is that Micheal Kovach?
"Wait that sounds like Dragon goes househunt- He beat me to it!" 😆
After seeing the preview for the second episode in GlitchX 2024, I think something that would have made the hazbin pilot so much better is restricting the amount of characters. Like the Helluva Boss pilot, how it only shows the small few characters. It tried to rush to get everyone important in and have an explainable background for them- while Dungeon Flippers dropped 4 new characters, with only a little bit of screen time, and made them understandable, believable, and exciting.
While I like 'Dungeon Flippers', 'A Dragon goes house hunting' is my biggest problem with it. 'A Dragon' tells us a lot about the world in the first 5 minutes which includes the intro to the show. Sure, 'A Dragon' has the advantage of having a manga to draw upon, but I feel that's the reason a smaller production like 'Dungeon Flippers' has to go the extra mile when they try to tap into a similar theme.
And sure, you might see it as unfair comparing a anime show with a larger budget to something smaller like Dungeon Flippers, but a Conan-style voice over for the intro text would have been nice and animation tricks like a camera moving over a still frame exist.
3:10 Not sure if I agree so far but I gotta compliment her VA for voice line delivery and voice itself, it just, feels unique, it's not squeky or bubbly but also not rough and mean, idk authentic is the word you can use to describe it? 😅
24:05 that's like saying to ignoring the gunshot wound in a murder victim.
Man, i really love when you do videos like these. Hope this one blows up like the one u did about hazbin.
I dont think the Dungeon Flippers pilot was dull at all. I feel it was more selling the charm and set up than the world and lore. If it covered everything you brought up or even part of it, it would have felt cluttered and muddled like the Hasbin Hotel pilot.
Keep in mind where in the episode they made that point. This is more the voice of the adult animation fan, often one who has been around the block more than a few times. In the same vein of one who is in the hypothetical of greenlighting new adult animation series.
Novelty is a highly sought after trait, even to the detriment of basic storytelling principles.
Its kinda like how Rotten Tomatoes has two different rating scores, which mostly reflects random folks and the people who make a living watching movies ALL THE TIME. A palate is developed when you consume that much media.
They also mention how refreshing it is, and I think both is true, it just has some weaknesses here and there.
I imagine calling it "dull" after a fair bit of praise is really a kind but firm nudge to say "If you want to get picked up, you're going to need to pander to these folks more." And I think that's fair. It probably would have to see changes to get network money, and if the public narrative were "more visual interest" as opposed to any character or narrative changes, that's literally the best scenario possible.
Rather pragmatic, really.
I'm going to be honest, as an amateur writer who's only recently started studying industry works, I use your videos as a general point of reference anytime I'm on the fence about something to weight out the possibilities, since you seem to be able to have a really logical and neutral view on these things.. great video, excited to see more
I've looked a lot but I CANNOT find the croc and bunny thing. What IS it?
It's "How to Be Cool" by PIemations
Idk, Dungeon Flippers houses perhaps feel empty because the homes aren't appropriate for Ace. It isn't until we get to the Void were things get spiced up. An empty world filled by imagination and the prospecting buyer has no discernable imagination on entry. Real Estate for monsters explains why monsters repopulate dungeons.
Honestly the world just seems empty overall, also the idea that a real estate company doesnt theme the places they are trying to sell is really funny to me
@The_Archer-he2ft perhaps they don't theme them because it'd impose on the prospecting buyer's own desires for their dungeons. Keeping the place relatively clear allows the buyer to imagine their own ideas for what to do with the location. Part of that is conveyed in the evil wizard's failing to have his own ideas of what he wanted in a dungeon.
@otterfire4712 i could get that if there was some reason to it, like if the first customer(for the pilot) was a non humanoid/something like a centaur they had places prepped for the imagination thing but humanoids are different since humanoids are always similar in needs like chairs. But to have a (seemingly human) wizard tour an empty castle/troll house/whatever is just bland to watch. Now make hime a lich lord or something like an eldritch horror then i could see why they would need the open space to get creative.
@The_Archer-he2ft several of the locations were property of monsters recently killed or moved out. Odds are, the locations were looted or emptied by the seller.
Yes thank u there a plenty shows that had 8 episode but has good pacing invincible being the best example
The way you say it implies that Charlie not knowing what she's doing is a bad thing, but I disagree. It's part of her character.
In the show itself, we see that she has no idea how to help the people of Hell, instead doing silly trust exercises and stuff like that.
Considering the way it's presented, I'm sure the show will adress this flaw in Charlie's mindset, and will eventually make her grow as a person.
The show has a lot of flaws, but Charlie's writing is good if you ask me.
She at least needs to have the qualities that make her success possible. She is too naive for the job she's taking. I think the amazon show made her a bit less childish, but as a viewer, you can only side against Charlie because she has no tangible plan or the mentality for this task. So, any success will appear contrived.
@@RoamingTrend I'm not sure... She can succeed because she's supported by people who know what they're doing, like Alastor. Before he came around, the hotel was failing hard.
Because, as you said, she doesn't have the right mentality for this. But she's not doing this alone anymore, and I'm sure that with the right environment and people, she will eventually learn from her flaws.
It's not like the writers ignore this aspect of her as if it's not part of a character (which is what a bad writer would do).
As I said, it's clear that she has no idea what she's doing, with her trust exercises and everything, so the writers do acknowledge her flaws, and I'm sure they'll clearly adress it eventually. Episode 4 did that a bit already.
But I don't think she's truly incompetent. Her approach is flawed, but her good heart did manage to get through to Sir Pentious in episode 2, meaning she can help people get better. She just needs more experience to learn how to do so properly and consistently.
It's fine and I'd even say it's good for a character to not be their best self from the start and to need to slowly get there throughout the show.
I hope they will address that too
I'm thinking it's mostly a thing of to her knowledge there's no solid ways that work, pentious was selfless and redeemed but still she doesn't even know he reached heaven. For her it would be trial and error without even knowing if the things that did work actually worked since she can't go up to heaven
23:31 well the info is not important to the viewer but it is to make the world feel like a real world,i mean if something like that was going on behind the sence it would make sense for the news to talk about it especially if the point is to make Charlie embarrassed on tv,and if the hotel situation is bothering angle it's only natural he would talk about it with his pal,it's organic and makes the world realistic in a way,and im some of those situation if we skip that part we skip the whole scene! And notice each time they do this they don't explain the whole things over again they just keep it short
I liked the dungeon flippers pilot, but I felt like it was lacking something. There was no real visual comedy, conflict, or excitement. I hate to say it was boring, and I’m not dissing a show with a more low key plot, but even cartoons with easygoing storylines can make most of their medium. Like you said, there’s no real stakes.
6:45 Its kind of wacky, because are they *her* people? She was born in hell, born to Satan. If anything the humans are in fact her underlings, possibly slaves, or just in general worth less than herself. At least, that would be logical for her perspective. I dont see any reason she should see humans as her equals, even her people.
The problem with a lot of vivsiepop's writing is that the implications of things are never thought about, nothing is ever really thought about for more than a second. Its impulsive writing.
Its kinda more likely that she overthought it in this particular case?
Charlie was originally just a sinner in the original version of the story arc.
That being said, as a princess, there is quite a precedent of claiming a disparate population as "my people" in human history, so...
Charlie considers sinners to her people because her mother is a sinner. While she is disconnected from them, the sinners, Charlie still see herself on some level one of them.
@@josukex42 Ah. Well that moreso begs the question why Satan would bang a human.
@@Yipper64Well Satan is a whole other character and why wouldn't Lucifer Morningstar bang his wife?
@@Yipper64 cause she's hot? Idk, but there certainly is historical precedent. I mean two princes in English history renounced the crown to marry a commoner.
I think they're both pretty good shows
27:12 something that kind of annoys me personally is that there's elements in modern like actual TV animation that decide to go outside convention, but in all the wrong ways. At least if you ask me.
I swear OK. K.O. just thinking its fine if they go horribly off model for entire shots for *no reason* is just annoying.
thank you for that examination of both shows (pilots), that was very educating! personally, i like both shows and i'm not a picker, so i say both are good. I just hope Dungeon Flippers pass the pilot stage and become a full lenght show or a small indie serie like Murder Drones or the Amazing Digital Circus
Looks like you just provoked the wrath of one of the most rabid fandoms on the internet. Hope you’re ready.
(DISCLAIMER: I don’t hate all Hellaverse fans. I’ve met plenty that are reasonable. I’ve just noticed that others are some of the most sensitive and zealous fans of a show that I’ve ever seen.)
Already done it three times by now. :D
@@RoamingTrend true lol
@@Ididtherightthing ecchi fanbase was the most passionate so far.
imagine still being a fan of helluva boss...
@@thenightwatchman1598 I hope one day you become emotionally secure enough to realize how silly it was to try to police people's interest like this.
When that day comes, just know I forgive that version of you in advance. Pat on the back, have couple of beers, no hard feelings, my dude.
Best of luck on your healing journey.
Thanks to this video I discovered Dungeon Flippers and I loved the pilot! Very refreshing.
Glad to hear it!
The biggest difference between these two shows is that - with enough direction - Dungeon flippers has the most genuine potential to become an animation staple. While Hazbin Hotel is...Hazbin Hotel.
Biased opinion
So hazbin is the more bombastic, and less coherent while dungeon flippers is the safe and more thoughtful story without the grandeur?
Holy crap actual good writing? Damn.
Your intro is ❤️🔥
6:30, I think you could say it's a "I want _, because _, and it would take _ to get it." Not sure if that's how it works, but still.
Someone pointed out in the comments of the pilot that Ace of Wands acts the way he dose is because he represents the negative aspects of the Tarot card he shares a name with. Maulie is shown to embody the positive aspects of that Trump. That could be a real interesting theme for a series, Hazbin has its Goetia, and Flippers could have its Trumps.
Both shows are absolutely solid, yes both have flaws but I like both. I can’t really score dungeon flippers though since not enough has been animated.
My money are on Dungeon flippers, I have faith this show will see success
23:38 I never watched the actual amazon show but I really hope it was at some point pointed out to Charlie that they *had* that chance. You know, before they died?
But given ive heard the ending is someone going from hell to heaven its just...
That show is a mess to say the least.
Yeah like from the start, the premice of this show is to redeem these siners in order to stop the massacre that is upon them. But along the show, we see demons unalive themselfs and others. What happens to the demons when they die?! By the end would be logic that when a demon die, it comes back to hell if its not redeemed, which makes the extermination premice pointless and senseless. Or if they're not redeemed, their soul is just.. gone? Not very second chance friendly i would add. If the time on earth is not enought to prove u deserve heaven, why to have limited time in hell as well till u disapear from existence
@@mayor_theo Sinners die only if they're killed by angelic weapons. The exterminators use them to kill sinners, preventing them from coming back. Unless they have angelic steel, when sinners kill each other they'll just regenerate back into hell (they still can get access to angelic weapons but in-universe they are expensive since only one of hell's weapons manufacturers is able to produce them). That's why the exterminations are a problem for people living in hell. If they aren't killed by exterminators then sinners have the potential to live indefinitely. One of the oldest sinners is several hundred years old.
@@mayor_theo The show answers this. The only way to permanentnly kill a demon or angel is with angelic weapons. If a demon dies normally, they come back albeit very painfully.
The extermination happens because hell is overpopulated but we find out there's more to it...within the first episode of the actual show.
Hoestly the reason given just feels weak and undermines what the pilot made me think would be the main story of the show, like it just turns the whole premise of the hotel into "we just need to kill the angels" instead of redeeming sinners@@NoMustang273
Ace seems like he's designed to be reoccurring. The Dr. Draken or Ice King of the show except he's just a guy that they perpetually can't find a home for.
Bro‘s entrance was badass
Itd be cool if the creators did a collab
LACKADAISY MENTIONED GRAAAAAAAA
Difference between this show and Hazbin is that this show has far more potential and already seems to have far superior writing than Hazbin with the way the story is going. However we can't be sure yet as there is only one episode out atm. I have high hopes and I truly hope that this series can shine in the world of indie animation.
I mean, does it really? It is interesting, but when just placing the pilots next together Hazbin would win in my eyes. Doesnt mean the show couldnt succeed over Hazbin but everything about the DF pilot felt flat to me
The best way I can describe both shows is one's too "corpo" while the other is too "wacky"
I just realized I grew up with Adventure Time and Regular Show while this newer generation has Hazbin Hotel and Skibidi Toilet as options Im not saying the 2000-10’s didn’t have brain rot but it was Uncle Grandpa, Xavier Renegade Angle, and Garry’s mod I feel like while I had Mostly good shows with some brain rot that was still good these kids have mostly shit shows with the occasional good show like smiling friends or inside job but like come on those aren’t exactly kids shows but come on who didn’t watch South Park or Aqua Team Hunger Force when they probably shouldn’t have but can’t they get something like Ninjago, Courage the Cowardly Dog, or hell Chowder? It just feels like with the move to more streaming oriented tv we lost the Saturday or afternoon cartoon for more “mature cartoons” that are actually more immature because “haha sex funny laugh why aren’t you laughing?” Even something more recent like Infinity Train or Hilda I think it’s called. I don’t know I could be completely wrong maybe I just don’t see more kid oriented cartoons because I’m older but it just feels like kids get RUclips or “mature cartoons” and this comment made me realize Cartoon Network had so many good one shot cartoons like there was this one about two friends at a summer camp I think I remember really liking it but I can’t remember the name for the life of me.
There is still a lot of good cartoons for kids nowadays, though
Fairly Oddparents: A New Wish, Bluey, Tales Of The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Pokemon, i didn't watch much of Lego Dreamzzz but i enjoyed what i saw, etc
Its also super easy to watch older shows nowadays, which means kids can watch shows previous generations watched, like for example, Sonic X, Danny Phantom, any of the previous tmnt and power rangers shows, batman the animated series, ben 10 etc
Brainrot is still the minority when it comes to kids content nowadays, its just more noticeable because everyone wont shut up about it
Aqua teen is peak adult animation
@@SodaFrizz666 for the simple reason that it didn’t try to be mature it knew what it was and it was hilarious the hell sandwich and the one where Shake gets plastic surgery probably have to be my favorite episodes
The sad part is that Hasbin Hotel is not even suposed to be for children and Viv said that before, yet children are still a large component of her fanbase, which makes sense since her series is imature as the ones for children, but has components that are not for children like the action being held in literal HELL.
It's sad cuz they think they're mature for watching it, yet there're a lot of amazing "kid's" shows that can be enjoyed by any age, that tell good stories and messages and children chose/ have to grow up with Hasbin hotel.
@@mayor_theo the only one to blame there is the parents, not the kids or viv. The only reason kids know about stuff like hazbin or helluva boss is because they have zero supervised internet access. It's like complaining that a Saw movie traumatized your kid, and blaming the people who made the movie, despite there being like a million warning signs telling you that it wasn't for kids.
I wonder what would happen if the two worked together
I blame prime and Maulie actually reminds me ALOT of Charlie
Honestly, I love Hazbin Hotel for my own reasons, but I am SO ready to dig my teeth into more indie works
I love how U integrate scenes from shows as a tl;dr to Ur points
The thing with hazbin hotel is not that it's to clutter it's not it's fast pace that's is writing style so one can't call it a sin but it does make it so it might not be a show for everyone but i think they fixed that with the mystery and story that gets people hooked,over all hazbin hotel fills like it's on a suger rush with doesn't mess with the quality of the show but their are most where you need wound down sooo the over one is kinda suger free which is freshening untill you watch the show and realize,what he said 👆 15:39 a mix of hazbin hotel and the vide of this show would be real nice but right now theirs not really much going with it for me to really want that,but again its the start of the show
I- Vaggy is dating Charlie. I dunno, I just thought calling her a mother figure was a little odd.
But that's how Vaggie treats Charlie.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that it is a odd. Honestly it's a little odd on hazbins part too.
@@AshyFeller
Lol.
They didnt selled that to me...
not for laking a ton of stereotypes of TV couples, no plis. Just, I also fell that sort of suport. Or maybe more of a sisterhood on the intimacy and chivralry and loyalty on their goal.
Now vouples can have that too, just on them considering how they potray other characters having crushes it's almost invisible.
Our culture is so abjectly horrified by the concept of emotional incest that people get flack for mere observations of unhealthy dynemics.
I daresay it seems more taboo than actual incest, when we have political figures defending first cousin marriage. (America is not a serious country, its 50 entities and unwilling stragglers in a trench coat)
But its absolutely correct to describe Vaggie and Charlie's relationship as weirdly motherly, especially *when the show itself* does so by giving her a duet with Carmine, with them singing about protecting their girlfriend and actual children, respectively.
I mean, come on.
@@Birdsflight44 I guess I didn't communicate my full thoughts. Yes, the relationship is weird. I didn't think of it that hard before. America is a joke. (Trust me, I know probably better than most people.)
nice analogy i watch both and all I can say is hazbin hotel has allot of art and world building but story is going over the place time to time and I feel between vizziepop helluva boss and hazbin hotel I much rather watch helluva because the story, conflict, and there world building is better, on the other hand dungeon flipper is bland with potential that need spice, the story is good but fleshing it out need some work and on top of that the world building needs to be reasonable and good to make it somewhat interesting and hopefully if they can make some backstory( I think flashbacks in each episode to make it a fun puzzle for every to theorize) that my opinion and hopefully these two can fix this issue to make it a good series
I was very exited for Dungeon Flippers. It seemed right up my alley. Fantasy comedy with a satirical nature. Fun! What i got was a bland, boring pilot, with boring characters, boring designs and... even the voice actors sounded bored. They sound so disinterrested in playing a character. It feels soulless.
Yeah the delivieries did not sound like people genuinely pushing to sell a house, they just sounded like they were going through the motions, plus the idea they are showing bare rooms to a humanoid is strange. Like make him non humanoid/a lich or something if you want to make me think he would have any interest in an empty castle without even a throne(like maulie envisions for no one but the audience)
Nice characters, I wonder how this would go out well..
finally a hazbin review i 100% agree with. Vivize made great characters and universe. but here lack of writing skill made it not as good as it could be
Also, finally i can enjoy a good quality wholesome show after what felt like ages of albeit good quality gorefests with depressing tones and everything being depressive for once
Spider with a top hat... my strongest spell.
Roaming Trend, dude, have you heard of the indie animated cartoon called Sublo and Tangy Mustard? It doesn’t get enough love and it’s been going for nine years now.
Incompetent, childish dreamer with influential parents. Charlie is peak nepobaby
many consider the hazbin pilot better than the actual series, so I'll leave my final judgement until flippers is fully out, tho I do have more hope for it