Jesus the sexist double standard in these comments. Yes, Sansa was absolutely wrong for not informing Jon that she had requested the Knights of the Vale's assistance and that they were garrisoned at Mote Cailin. Her confusing subterfuge here resulted in the deaths of many men (and maybe women cus of the wildling spear wives). HOWEVER, Jon made an equally terrible mistake which is far less forgivable as he is a seasoned warrior and a tested battle commander. Sansa explicitly warns him NOT to play into Ramsay's games......and Jon proceeds to do exactly that by trying to save Rickon and then solo charging the Bolton Calvary division. This forced the Stark Calvary and Free Folk to rush to engage in order to save Jon. The plan was to let the Boltons charge the Stark forces and then surround them. Jon cost just as many, if not more, lives with his brash, reckless, and emotional response. So chill out people - Can't we just agree these guys know absolutely nothing about GoT or ASoIaF?
here is the difference,Jon Snow did it for an understandable, he's very fucking loyal to his family he's not going to watch his brother die in front of him if he has a chance of rescuing him, the brother he didnt see for years. Emotion is a reasonable excuse for Jon to fuck over his troops Sansa had absolutely no fucking reason to hide that informartion from Jon Snow. Jon Snow couldve had alot more options of attack, he couldve saved ALOT more lives, heck maybe Ricken couldve been saved because Ramzy's plan centered around the fact that Jon had less numbers than him. Sansa didnt tell Jon for no fucking reason, she literally fucked over Jon for no reason.
Every comment I'm reading is disliking Sansa for withholding information. Just because she's a woman doesn't mean that every opinion not in her favor is automatically sexist. Woman can be assholes too and having a penis doesn't disqualify you from calling them out on it.
"far less forgivable" Of course he was going to try to save his brother, what do you expect him to do? Just stand there and watch as he gets hit by an arrow and do nothing? "solo charging the bolton cavalry division" He had no other option, an arrow rain was already in the air. He would have died if he had staid put and he didn't have enough time to turn around.
+Wolfman7870 it does when you single a woman out while blatantly ignoring a male character's arguably larger failings. Let's remember Littlefinger has poisoned Sansa's ability to trust others and we know she never had any sort of familial relationship with Jon growing up. Dudes on the Internet seemed so obsessed with rejecting anything ever being sexist or racist but that doesn't change the truth. Complain all you want, it's a stupid double standard and I very clearly criticized Sansa for screwing up as well so I don't know what all of my butt hurt fellow men are all crying about.
I just saw that actor in something else with Ian McKellan, they were related and I think Ramsey was going off to college. He closes the door and leaves, then 2 minutes later comes rushing back in and hugs Ian McKellan then leaves again IT WAS SO GOD DAMN CREEPY to see him smile like normal.
Ikr! That grin he had while getting beaten to a pulp really prevented me from fully enjoying his death. Even Sansa executing him in the Kennels like the mad dog he is only gave me slight satisfaction. Scumbag really did a number on me.
Yes, Jon thought fighting that one on two battle was his best chance of winning and things weren't ever going to improve. If Sansa told him of at least a better than zero chance of another army swooping in to even the odds, they could have coordinated that or at least took it into account.
I don't understand how someone can hate Sansa that much, especially giving Cersei a pass. Sansa has been a hostage for most of this series, and a rape victim. I can understand being critical of a character, but it seems ridiculous to have that much vitriol for her and the woman who helped get her family killed and countless others is less hated. I don't get it.
Its because she is basically the reason why her brother died. She knew the Vale army was coming and she kept it a secret. This secret could have been used to bargain for Rickon's life during the Parley but she kept it hidden and even said out loud "We probably need Rickon to die". Like she basically sent her bro to the grave. Rather than saying "hey, we've got an army double the size of yours thats coming. Your defeat is imminent, so give us Rickon and we will let you join the black (or something). But no! She takes the time to bitch a Jon about nothing but cant take the time to share IMPORTANT, life changing info So, this was either Sansa, securing her way into the seat of Winterfell and Baelish has truly molded her into a young him. Or this was the writers leaving logic at the door to try to make things seems darker and more serious. Either way... its annoying
Leah Marie I don't think Sansa telling Jon about the Vale would've saved Rickon, especially since he presents such a threat to Ramsay's place at Winterfell. The only thing I can think of that might have saved him was doing what Yara did and sneak in to save him. Ramsay didn't let Theon go and I don't think he would have let Sansa go, they both had to escape. Ramsay knew he could use Rickon to mess up their strategy. If he would have known they had the Vale support I feel like he just would have developed a plan to deal with that. A big Lannister army is in the area, he could get their aid if he thought he was outmatched. I don't really know if Sansa is trying to make a power grab, but I do know that the Starks are all about family and I think she loves Jon and her other siblings. I don't know if they'll make her turn on him or not in the future. I hope not though. Even though she has learned a lot, Little Finger is better at manipulating people. I know he'll want something for helping them.
At the end of the day Sansa spent the entire night before the battle bitching at jon because the didnt have enough men and how theyd have to let Rickon die - knowing the WHOLE time another massive army was on its way. Ramsay did was he did because he was sure he'd win, because the numbers. If Ramsay knew several thousand more men were coming and he's lose he probably would have heard terms
Leah Marie I don't know if Sansa knew for sure that help was coming. We never saw her receive any word back. I think part of the reason she was trying to delay the battle is because she didn't know for sure that they were getting help. Also, part of Sansa's complaints did have merit. She told him that Ramsay would try and manipulate him. She warned him, but even with that knowledge he ran out in the middle of the battlefield when they really needed Ramsay's men to charge first. I need more info on what all Sansa knew and what her intent was. If she was withholding that info because she wanted Rickon dead or some other thing like that then I can dislike her like others.
Well maybe...but, in reality he could of EASILY said screw it and holed up in Winterfell. With Winter there (and there should of been a LOT more actual snow on the ground by this time) a siege would have been difficult at best.
He needs to realize that even George RR Martin would say there would be no "Game of Thrones" without "The Lord of The Rings." I get he has a preference, but... some respect, dood!
Remember that Sansa never received an answer, so she wasn't sure that he would appear at all. How can you be with a snake like Littlefinger? and why give false hope to Jon then?
We don't know she didn't receive an answer. In fact I think she did. She rode up with Baelish. Which means she road out to meet him. Which means she knew he was coming. And even if she didn't know she should have told Jon about the possibility.
+Laverne Blaszczyk (clichegirl) and yet its still her fault. She even said after ramsey that they should wait and right then and there she should of disclosed the information but no. lets watch jon and the army die
I think there's a chance she did know. When Sir Davos was standing at the pyre on the night before the battle he heard a horn blowing. That could have been the call to arms for everyone but a similar horn was blown as the cavalry charged onto the field. When the horn was being blown Sir Davos was the focus of the camera. Maybe a way of showing he remembered hearing the sound the night before. Could also mean nothing though, hehe
She wanted him to wait and she had the means to convince him to wait, by telling him the truth. Even the suspicion that they *might* come is enough. That would at least get Jon to wait long enough for them to send someone to see if the Knights of the Vale were coming (and clearly they were close given when they arrived). This idea that "she didn't know for sure so it's okay that she withheld information" is absurd and in no way excuses the fact that she did withhold that information.
Guys, guys, you're totally right that logically Sansa should have told Jon about Littlefinger. But, it wouldn't have worked dramatically. Even though it was predictable, it was still dramatic to have the knights of the Vale to come in to save the day deus et Littlefinger.
I would have worked really well. The execution is key. The writers jusr decided to do the same they have done before again. Deus Ex Army. Just like in Blackwater, Watchers and now here.
Did Sansa have a guarantee that Littlefinger would even show up though? Probably didn't tell Jon because she didn't even know if the Vale was gonna show.
That plot point can be turned around on its own head. Let's have this scenario where Sansa does tell Jon that the Knights of the Vale are coming to aid them. And then Jon is impatient because he's too afraid and worried about Rickon. In his mind, the longer Rickon is with Ramsay, the more chances of him dying. So he doesn't listen to Sansa when she says they should wait for the Vale and he goes off to the battlefield. Sansa instead goes to try to find Littlefinger and the Knights (meet them halfway). Everything else plays out as it did and when the battle starts, Jon (and none of us) have any idea whether the Knights will show up at all. Did Sansa get captured by one of Ramsay's men? Did Littlefinger decide not to bring the Knights of the Vale at all? And then just as Jon and his men are losing, they show up just like they did in the episode. So i went full fanfic there but yeah that's what I think would have made more sense for the writers and director to have gone with.
Still makes her an ass. And it wasn't dramatic, it was corny. Not only was it cheap 'cause it's just a "and suddenly they were saved" BS that Game of Thrones is supposed to be above, but it's recycled from what Stannis did on top of it. This season has been dumbed down significantly, but I thought they wouldn't stoop that low. I was wrong.
The giant's tanking game was on point. 1) He pulled all the mobs and 2) He was able to even keep Ramsay Bolton's aggro. Now if only he could get melisandre to rez him.
He would have been a better tank if they had given him a shield. Like, they could have literally just ripped a door off one of the empty castles on the wall for him to use... He could have practically won that battle himself if they did that.
sansa was a bitch. she betrayed her father which started this all off. then failed to mention to Jon about little finger. no sympathy for her what so ever
Telling Jon wouldn't have changed anything. Tell him that an untrustworthy guy might be coming with an army? And you think little finger would have come days earlier to plan and plot with Jon? And out his soldiers at risk at the start of the battle? Little finger probably only agreed to come near the end of the battle, to clean up whoever was left alive. All the deaths are on Jon, who didn't follow his own plan to let Ramsry come to him. Instead he let his emotions get ahead of himself and lead his army to be almost defeated.
My guess is that Flayed men had three purposes: 1. There were the soldiers who came with Ramsay to negotiate with jon. They were flayed so that they won't spread the word that Ramsay won't fight for them and create mutiny. 2. They were the distance markers. so that he can kill recon without fail. 3. Obviously, create fear in hearts of wildlings and make a statement that they are as bad as thenns.
He could have nabbed peasants from any village to serve the purpose. Feudal systems like that where Lords have all the power and peasants and serfs are no more than their property will get treated likewise with no repercussions to the offending lord. I don't think his men would have held the fact that he refused to fight Jon in one on one combat that he was likely to lose as reason to mutiny. There's a difference between bravery and stupidity and I'm sure men of combat would have no problem understanding the difference.
Great episode - but i don't understand all the Sansa hate for lying to Jon (and this coming from someone who think she's usually dumb as rocks). I think the episodes leading up to last night made it fairly obvious what the show runners were trying to convey. The scene with Jon and Sansa making battle plans was to remind us that Ramsey will never fall into a direct trap and that Jon was a Stark to the end - all honor and acting off of instinct. So Sansa needed the knights of the Vale to be a surprise to everyone including Jon otherwise Ramsey would have never taken the bait because Jon would've adjusted his strategy. This was further reinforced when Ramsey and Jon remind us that a smart battle commander would not have charged, but remained encamped within Winterfell and waited the army out. If Jon would've known about the 5,000 knights of the Vale and outnumbered the Bolton/Umber forces, they would've never lured them out of Winterfell and it would have turned into a prolonged seige - which a cavalry would've not had the same affect on. I usually find Sansa making annoyingly stupid decisions, but believe the way she played the strategy on for the battle relatively well. It's not that she does not trust Jon - she just knows his makeup, and shows that she understands how to play people to manipulate them to get the best outcome... again, all the seasons of training (e.g. cersei, littlefinger, king's landing) of Sansa's character development (and Jons) lead to this, so i think it makes perfect sense.
I think you've got this completely wrong, there is NO WAY Sansa had any knowledge beforehand that LF would join the battle because that wasn't her call to make. Baelish and only Baelish gets to decide if she knows and from what we know of Baelish he ALWAYS looks out for #1. It was to his total advantage Ramsay and Jon's armies decimated each other before he swooped in because we know he has designs on becoming Warden of the North and that requires controlling Sansa again by isolating her and making her dependent upon him. He had to be certain of not just destroying Ramsay, but that Rickon perished too. That way he can make his claim on the North in pursuit of Sansa. And now with Jon's army in ruin, Littlefinger is the de facto power in the North who can freely pursue his claim. And judging from the previews of E10 looks exactly like what he has in mind. It looks like his goal all along was to keep Sansa and Jon in the dark about his support until the moment he showed up and he wouldn't have had it any other way (even if in his ideal scenario he would have liked to see Jon die in the end too to better isolate Sansa from competing influences. Riding in to slaughter off the remaining Bolton army while Jon's army lay in ruin also dovetails nicely with the Littlefinger Doctrine of rising to be King of the Ashes.
Yes, that is what everyone expects but I think Sansa is out thinking Little Finger and him underestimating her will be his down fall. Sansa is not going to let someone marry her off again. Sansa is not going to depend on LF to save her or keep her home now that she is back there and safe. After what she has been through she will do anything to keep Winterfell.
Well you're right about everything except the siege part. They wanted them to fight in the field. Sieges can take literally years. They don't have that time, and they know it, they know they need to take Winterfell immediately and get ready to fight the White Walkers by consolidating the north. They even said at the strategy meeting that Ramsay is stupid to leave the castle and they're lucky he's choosing to fight them in the open. But yes, you're right about everything else. Sansa told him they needed to wait for more men, he didn't listen. She told him Ramsay would use Rickon to bait him into making a stupid mistake, he didn't listen. Seems pretty clear that she did the right thing. If Jon didn't take Ramsay's bait and charge straight into them as soon as he was provoked, they wouldn't have been surrounded and slaughtered so quickly and the knights of the Vale would've swept in from the side before the Boltons would be able to retreat an entire army back to the castle.
Shara Banks LF's plan is not to "marry Sansa off". His plan is to marry her himself so he can rightfully claim the title of Warden of the North. And if the previews from the next episode is any indication, he's going to pitch it about him being in love with her though, just as he proved to be hopelessly in love with her mother Catelyn. I just hope she's smarter than to fall for it.
+el80ne I don't disagree with anything you say about Baelish - except about knowing about joining the battle - he already offered this to her 4-5 episodes ago in front of Briene when they were camped up in Moat Caelin. I'm only talking about her choice not to tell Jon (which everyone's pissed about). Sansa could've told Jon as soon as Little Finger had met her (he had no control over her to make that decision not to), but she decided not to... remembering when Briene specifically asked her why she was lying to her brother. in my opinion, D&D are trying to show that Sansa is the one "laying the trap" finally. but like I said, I agree with you that Baelish will ultimately come out on top (like he always does) and that he wanted to fight a depleted force to take over the north. we don't have to guess this - he already told Sansa that was his strategy with Stannis and Roose in season 5.
The most powerful scene in the BoB is when Jon is getting trampled, or as Miguel Sapochnik calls it, "the rebirthing scene," because Jon has to CHOOSE to live. He didn't ask to be resurrected, even tells Melisandre not to bring him back a 2nd time if he dies in battle, and this entire season he's been completely apathetic. He's burned out, doesn't care enough to fight anymore, & says he's going south to "get warm." When Jon is being trampled & suffocating, he makes a conscience decision to live and literally has to claw & fight his way out. Such a powerful metaphor.
Sheesh, few seconds in and I'm already finding myself disagreeing. "Hardhome was a pretty good episode"? Pretty good, huh? Might be the understatement of the year. XD
Lol I hate when people say TV like Hardhome is just ok while simultaneously praising the most basic filler episodes. "Did you see when the guy ate the apple and pushed the table? .. Best episode ever!". No.
+WiseKing GoT does the best filler, but in some crazy way Cenk has become addicted to it. It started in season 1 where they shot way too little for 10 hours and burned through their budget so they had scenes like Viserys talking with his slave or Cersei and Robert talking. That stuff is good, but in no way is it the best Game of Thrones has to offer.
what you guys dont understand is that these dudes watch tones of tv and movies - no way can they remember the order of episodes & shit like that lol - what to you guys is the best tv show you've watched, to them it's just one more.
i was think that and then he starting going off on sansa and then I wished he would be silent again. I can't stand that he doesn't understand her. She is one of the best characters!
I think this was the single most gritty realistic battle that I've ever seen. There was a little too much close up shaky cam at times. But overall it is one of the best battle scenes ever.
It was cool but it wasn’t realistic. In reality- you do not send your cavalry charging at a force of troops- let alone do that and then shoot them with arrows. Owning a horse in that time period was a very big deal and most cavalry units were Nobel men or directly related to them. How long do you think a lord will last if he gets a reputation for spilling nobel blood like that? What normally happens is both sides line up and then push their peasants towards each other, then send in the professional solders armed with spears and shields behind them to help churn up the meat grinder while the cavalry wait on the side-lines to charge down anyone who routs. It was very rare that Nobel men actually died in those kinds of wars.
It was an example of a battle fought by two men who made a lot of mistakes. 1. Jon charging in blindly with his Calvary - successfully baited by Ramsay. 2. Ramsay meeting the charge with his own Calvary rather than absorbing it with his infantry/pikemen. Ramsay's treatment of his calvary as expendable lost him the battle. 3. Ramsay not having scouts that might have noticed the approach of the Vale's army. You are wrong by the way, only the Scots made extensive use of pike/spearmen in the Medieval ages. Calvary was the bread and butter, and the good infantry were merely dismounted knights. This was the formula until the English Longbowmen changed everything. Calvary was King, and the Nobility died all the time - although wherever possible they were taken prisoner instead and held for exorbitant ransoms by the winning side. Source: I've read a lot of historical books on war.
Sansa did that typical woman move of yelling "LISTEN TO ME! YOU NEVER ASK ME WHAT I WANT!" ok...I'm listening, what do you want? "IDKK BUT YOU SHOULDA LISTENED ANYWAY!" Like what?!? She wasn't clear and withheld vital information that could have saved more lives and actually helped the situation.
I dont think Sansa knew Little finger was coming until the day of battle. I dont get all the Sansa Hate ? What she did was questionable but she couldve did nothing and john would have lost the battle
She didn't know. Even if little finger responded there is no way she could have trusted him especially after he sold her to Bolton. People are being way to harsh. She did everything she could to help and behaved like someone who has been through all the betrayal at the hands of people she trusted would
Where is the outrage about what Jon did. Jon being dumb enough to fall for the trap that Ramsey layed out for him, after Sansa warned him. Yet she is getting shit on. Dumb move on Jon's part of running out and causing his men to run out to protect him which exposed his men to be mostly killed going against what they planned for. Yet Sansa is being blamed for the slaughter of Jon's men because she knew about Littlefinger's army, please.
Sansa knows what a snake Littlefinger is, so she probably didn't know if or when he'd show up even if he did say he'd be there. I know I was wondering if the knights of the Vale were even coming at one point.
I can't fathom how these guys can criticize Sansa so much, usually out of their own ignorance, and yet they all LOVE Daenerys. Daenerys who's made idiotic decisions one after another and would have been dead a hundred times over if it wasn't for plot armour. So Sansa: 1. She didn't know Littlefinger would turn up, basing a battle plan on the expectation of reinforcements is risky when you don't know if they'll actually arrive (and if they're led by LITTLEFINGER!). 2. The moment she tells Jon about it the situation is no longer in her control. She doesn't trust Jon to make the right decision. 3. She's learnt not to trust anyone, which is wise. ----- Outside of that, first they call Sansa stupid for rejecting Littlefinger initially. Why? It makes sense considering Littlefinger is a slippery bastard and they still had other options. Then they call her 'they stupidest person on the show' because she changes her mind. The fuck? What other choice did she have? And it won the battle in the end. --- Plus, they ALWAYS ignore the smart things she does. She basically predicted the course of the battle and Jon ignored her. And again, they're forgetting the fact that she's survived all this time by her own wits, how is that not smart? But Cersei is smart for SURVIVING, Sansa is just an idiot - yeah, Sansa didn't do any surviving.
I'll never understand people's arguments about "realism" in FANTASY movies and TV. The Lord of the Rings movies are also 15 years old now as well. Better technology
@Soccer Freak: You do realize LotR CGI and Game of Thrones CGI are several years of difference, right? Technology changes and improves. Quickly too, these days. Had LotR been made today you'd seen a wastly better CGI.
it's a fantasy film/book it was not a true to life documentary about how people fought in real life, sorry not trying to be an ass, but all of this is fantasy something on the history channel. Ya kinda gotta take it with a grain of salt. :)
Wow Cenk, the shade being thrown at Lord of the Rings isn't necessary. There would be no Game of Thrones if it wasn't for Tolkien. I'm so surprised you thought LotR was unwatchable, that's such blasphemy. I understand it isn't for everyone but have some respect. LotR is what made the fantasy genre known.
as a critic he should know how lotr pioneered the medieval fantasy setting into literature (books,movies) and its large influence on GRRM and the show.... if he cant understand the basic gist of it... then why should we even take his opinions on game of thrones then? it is a review... i should say that this battle was shit and this game of thrones series is boring cause there is no sex scenes yada yada yada and post it on the interwebz... im just another edgy asshole
Coraline is absolutely right. Think about it. How many men did the Knights of the Vale actually have? Let's assume it was a generous guess of 1000 men. If they would have waited for the cavalry Ramsey would STILL be up about 2000 men and they would have shown their WHOLE hand. Ramsey would have kept his shield wall back to counter the Vale's charge or would have withdrawn behind castle walls. Either way Jon would have lost. Read a book on tactics Bogdan.
She single handedly gave the north over to Littlefinger. With both Jon and Ramsay's army gone, littlefinger is unofficially lord of the north. Any hope that Sansa had of ruling Winterfell died after that battle unless she marries him. Thousands of lives were wasted including her youngest brother. There would be no worries for a siege as it would be too slow to pull 6000 men into Winterfell, Jon would have cut down a good number of Ramsay's army. Also we've seen Wun Wun take down the gate of Winterfell, a siege would last a few days at most. @FWDC Norac The Vale brought more than a 1000 knights, I would say around 3000. Even if jon showed his full hand, the knights of the Vale are trained to bulldoze through shield walls, real war-horses are trained to run down anything.
Kyle Bloomberg Fair points but I didn't see anywhere near 3000 knights. That is a pretty generous estimation you are making. If the Vale did have that many men then why didnt theu just take over the North regardless of who was in power? A detachment of 3000 horsemen is a huge number. How many are left back at home. How big is the Vale's entire army. 20k? 30k? With those numbers they could steamroll the entire North.
***** I agree the Vale could easily take over the north, which they basically have done now with Littlefinger now being the only force in the north. I guess they never did because the Arryns never felt to get involved in the other kingdoms troubles, Lysa was always a recluse but since Littlefinger is now the "ruler" of the Vale he may feel guilty for what he did to Sansa. From what I've read and seen, Littlefinger brought quite a number of knights, it could have been less than what i said but it was definitely more than 1000.
I thought Sanasa was stupid too. Her whining to and yelling at Jon the night before that he should do something different. Jon even asks what he should do different, and shes like "I dont know"
Totally agree. Cenk is a bit misogynistic. Why doesn't he wait until the story plays itself out before drawing conclusions. But like politics, he shoots then aims.
If anyone is going to kill Littlefinger, it's Sansa. She's his only weakness. Littlefinger's hunger for power is because of Caitlyn. He wasn't powerful or high class enough to marry her when they were young, and that lit a fire under his butt. Caitlyn Stark is the only person Littlefinger ever loved, and Sansa is the closest thing he can get to Caitlyn Stark. Littlefinger wants Sansa. He wants to prove to the world and to himself that he is good enough to marry someone like Sansa. This has been a goal of his since he was a boy. And it's because of this love and obsession that he will make a mistake and get killed. It may not be this season, but it makes total sense that Littlefinger will be killed by the only person he actually loves.
Ramsey was a dick, but he was a brilliant techtician! 1. he draws out John by toying with his brother, 2. he forces the Stark troops to attack to protect John (knowing he has a larger force, the default strategy for John is to go on defense) 3. he slaughters Stark cavalries (with his own cavalries) knowing he's infantries are FAR superior to stark's, he could just mop up the Stark fighting men with his Roman shield wall ok Ramsey's hubris screwed him, he underestimated Sansa's resourcefulness. But other than that, he did everything perfectly, and he could have easily decimated John's force. Sansa is far better techtician than John, she knew john didn't have a big enough force, and having not enough was no better than not having any at all. John didn't listen. She knew Ramsey was good at "setting traps", John didn't listen. She said, forget about the lil brother, he's as good as dead, John didn't listen... The only thing John has is unlimited supply of adrenaline and God like luck!
Cavalries are the best units during those times (Giants notwithstanding). So Ramsey taking out Stark cavalries together with his own, is a brilliant move (2nd to drawing out John to the field) because John was the last significant obstacle in Ramsey ruling the whole North (everyone would be screwed when the whitewalkers come, i know). So Ramsey needed a crushing win, and no reason to conserve strength. He should have brought his dogs to the fight!!
Cenk is wrong. Sansa read Jon Snow perfectly, she realized that there was no way in hell Jon would defeat Ramsey in battle and that she needed to do something about it. That's why she called in the Knights of the Vale and kept it close to the chest.
Jon is not getting enough credit for his wartime strategic skills. He had the same plan Ramsey had, which was great, but he did not execute because he was willing to take a chance to save a member of his family. Jon is not the guy to let someone he loves die just to take the easy road; he's willing to take risks that are worth taking.
The _running after your brother_ part wasn't the issue, it was what happened afterwards. Charging into an army on your own isn't a 'risk' it's suicide.
Liz Smith True. I don't see why the entire force had to run after Jon. It looked to me like Jon was on a very dangerous rescue mission; no need to run after him if he is highly likely to die. Jon was acting like he had a deathwish most of the episode. He did not even want to be brought back to life if he died. That just shows you that he was not thinking like most people.
People don't seem to understand Sansa at all. Two lines for me epitomize Sansa's whole (and sound) thought process, one this season and the other back in season 4. The first is when she tells Jon "You can't save me, no one can save anyone" this is a lesson she learned the hard way and a lesson that might have saved many other characters from their blind trust, she knows that in the end she can't trust anyone to save her and thus has to rely on herself, if she tells him about the knights of the vale he might waste that army on a poorly thought out plan that accounts for no other contingencies (like the one he had); he might waste that army by making a rash decision in the middle of the war (like the one he made, and it's important to note that poor military strategy was his downfall in the battle, not his lack of numbers), or he might dismiss the army all together out of mistrust; to be fair he might also have ended up waiting when he found out he'd have more forces and might have used them wisely, but we don't know that for sure, and neither does Sansa, which brings me to the next quote, the one in season 4 after Sansa ends up saving Little Fingers life by lying, when he asks her why she did it she says "they would have thrown you through the moon door, what would they have done with me?" when he says he doesn't know she responds by "neither do I", this is another important lesson she's learned well, never tell people something when you don't know how they'll react, never gamble with your life on something that's unpredictable, stick to what you're certain of if you want to survive in this world. Sansa made the only play that guaranteed that she'd survive, she knows that in the process she risked her brother's life, which is why she looks away for a second when he sees her with the army, but she's learned the lesson that he (and their father) never could, sometimes the honorable way isn't enough, sometimes honor and trust get you killed, how many Starks do they have to behead before you figure that out.
Fantastic discussion! Best forum of its kind on RUclips. I've been searching for something like this for what seems like ages! Smart, in-depth but not too much droning on, incredible analysis. Top shelf job, boys!
I find it strange that Sansa has been conveying her whole "I'm gonna be the Lady of Winterfell" when it's actually Rickon who is the legitimate King in The North. It's like she never planned on him surviving from the very beginning. That's either stupid, or malicious. Also, had she told Jon about the Knights of The Vale, they could have gone into the negotiations as the stronger part, and therefore demand Rickons release. She must have also been sure that Littlefinger was going to show, as she arrived with him, meaning she must have received word that he was in the area. Ramsey should of course also have known this, as that is pretty much the largest standing army in The North, and they have been on their way for a while. Littlefinger is the greatest general of all time if he could keep that army hidden for that long without anybody finding out.
Does nobody remember how Jon Snow was *this* close to breaking his vows and leaving the night's watch for Robb? Its not such a surprise that he'd go running alone to save his brother Rikkon
After some thought, I am more and more convinced that Sansa made a mistake by not mentioning the Knights of the Vale. She tried to warn Jon... true. He was mistaken to fall into Ramsey's obvious trap. But he all but BEGGED her for some other idea. She could have mentioned the letter she sent (or the Knights she has stashed if she already knew they'd made it). Jon might have waited if he had something else to work with. Jon was stupid and reckless... but Sansa let him go and get his army destroyed... and is now at the mercy of Baelish.
People are raving on about how Jon is a failed commander, but actually it was Davos who gave the order for the men to follow Jon to their deaths. Jon was on a suicide mission, going out there alone in a blind rage, but if I remember correctly he didn't signal for his men to follow him.
Here are my reasons of why Sansa didn't tell Jon about The Cavalry. 1- She doesn't trust Littlefinger, she didn't know he would be coming for sure. 2- Jons army will fight their hearts out knowing that they're outnumbered. 3- Ramsey was overconfident, killed a lot of his own men, he went all in, thought he had won, and that's what Sansa wanted Ramsey to do. 4- The army, the horses, were in the snow. What happened to Stannis could've happened to them, there could've been a snowstorm. Also, as Jon said in the episode, they had to proceed and go to battle, before they starve and have no will to fight. So even if Jon knew that reinforcement was on the way, he had no other choice but to go and fight, again they don't trust Littlefinger, and on top of that, Ramsey has Rickon, therefore Jon is a bit impatient not knowing what Ramsey is capable of.
Sansa was the one to push Jon to battle Ramsay. She is said "a monster has our home, and our brother", then says forget about Rickon, he's dead. Sansa whines and moans about Jon not asking her opinion, then when Jon asks her what to do, she says 'I don't know'. Then at the end we're suppose to applaud Sansa for being 'smart', and letting Ramsay be ate alive by his dogs. We're suppose to hate Ramsay when he does that shit but love Sansa when she does it? Violence and cruelty is still violence and cruelty no matter who is committing it.
Wait. But, are you sure Sansa got a response from Littlefinger that he was joining the battle? Does she even know her raven made it to the Vale?? And, if you recall Sansa did tell John to wait, that they weren't prepared to face Ramsey's forces.
The Flayed People on the Battle Field served as distance markers for Ramsay when he shot arrows at Rickon, the fact that they were on two sides and on fire also gave him an indication on the wind direction and speed.
Littlefinger betrayed Ned Stark. That's the only reason I can think of why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale, because Jon wouldn't work with someone who helped kill his father. Its the same reason why Theon wouldn't come with Sansa to Castle Black, Jon would have had his head for killing two boys and betraying Robb.
15:40: If he just kills Jon, then what? It's a big loss to the opposing force, but it doesn't change the composition of the battlefield any. Provoking Jon into the charge was what he wanted. 17:10: Attack at night? When the Boltons are holed up in the castle?
Funny story when i saw that I honestly thought of it in video game terminology, in which you fight a boss battle and you kill the guys who will deal more damage to you in that moment so it honestly made a lot of sense
Hate Sansa more than Cersei? How is that even possible? Do you even remember what has Cersei done,and what ahs Sansa been through? I really liked Cenk the most, but after that comment. It says so much about the way he sees and understands the show...
I completely disagree with their opinion on Sansa. Going what she has gone through, she is right not to trust anyone. Even though we know Jon is completely trustworthy, she knows nothing about Davos and Tormund... what if one of them was not to be trusted? She had to keep some cards to herself, only she knew the extent of Ramsay's torture and his sadistic nature. Jon knew nothing about it, only what he had been told.
The battle was simply incredible. You actually had an idea of the battlefield with Winterfell in the background and the forrest on the other end witht he armies in the plains in the middle. There was a sense of direction, scope and proper dimensions that one never gets in any movie (at least not that I can remember). Simply brilliant
The arrow firing choice of Davos and Ramsay was not only an ethical one, but also a pragmatic one. Nearly all the Stark forces were engaged in that fight, while only a fraction of the Bolton forces were.
Also, I can't believe you guys messed up the cheekiest and best line of the episode: Daenerys: ...and I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands. Yara: I never demand, but I'm up for anything really. Ben, of all people, how do you miss that?
Am I the only one who got the impression she didn't expect Littlefinger to show up at all? Her plans for the battle day were saying on the camp and committing suicide if the reports said Jon had lost, she never got a response from him so how should she have guessed he would come after she threatened to have him tortured and murdered on his last meeting?
When Dany told them "No more reaving", I think Yara's only hesitation was on behalf of her people. I think she herself would be fine being a more traditional Westerosi Lord. Just my opinion. I do agree that Theon is fine with it because he is done with violence, like Brother Ray. Also, politics aside, I do really want to see Dany and Yara hook up. xD *edit: I also have to say, I freaking love Yara's stance when she is talking to Dany. So much power. That is some top acting there.
These weekly Thrones reviews, are without question, the best in existence. Trust me, I watch almost all of them, WTF is the best of all of them, and by a good margin. Excellent job the last few years gentlemen, well done.
I've watched several breakdowns of this episode and people keep missing the obvious... If Sansa told Jon to wait for the Vale, then Ramsay would have seen the Vale army and would have said, yea F this, lets just make them come to us in Winterfell and they may have lost trying to siege a damn near unsiegable castle.... It sucks but whether she knew it or not, it had to go down this way. If they waited, Ramsay would have fought a different war... this way Ramsay was caught totally off guard
Sure thing, there is no other strategy other than showing your enemy the entire strength of your army. No way they could have hid reinforcements until the exact right moment to ensure the least loss of life. I hope Littlefinger owns all of these losers.
The Vale knights showed up like, 20 minutes after the fighting started. If we're talking realistically, Ramsay should have had scouts that spotted them days ago.
+Coldsun3000 Okay, let me just break it down once and for all. #1 They don't have to fucking parade the Vale army in front of Ramsay's door. There is such a thing as discretion. #2 Okay, say Ramsay does see through it and hides in his castle. Then what? A siege. And that is bad for the Starks, how, exactly? They lost their entire army in open battle, now at the mercy of Littlefingers knights. A siege would have spared virtually all Stark soldiers. "Near unsiegable" give me a fucking break. A hardly strategic Theon managed to take Winterfell with like 500 men.
+KarstenOkk 1. how can you hide a army?? lol that's not gonna happen... sorry you may not know medieval history... which is ok... but any set of scouts would see them coming... you are introducing a new strategy to this... that Sansa tells Jon they are coming... then they all say hmmmmmm ok great now let's hide their army in the bushes, thennnn go out and fight and die thennnn they can swoop in!!! Thats stupid and impossible.... 2. Theon took winterfell cause the entire army was south fighting a war.... lol... it's said several times in the series, idk how much you watch it or not, but Ned Stark says 500 men could defend Winterfell against 10,000... Theon even repeats this... like we have to take the characters word for it.... so yeah sorry to shut down all of your rebuttals but no... these are misinformed... sorry dude
I might be missing something. How was Sansa supposed to know about the Knights of the Vale? Littlefinger suggests Sansa get the aid of her uncle, Blackfish and the Tully forces. When was she informed that there was a good chances the army of Arryn would also show up?
+Alejandro Castellanos but we saw the scene with Littlefinger getting Robyn to mobilize the Knights of the Vale way before she wrote the letter, and we didn't get a scene of her receiving a letter back in time for the battle. What if she told them the Knights of the Vale were coming and Littlefinger didn't show up? She declined him last time and told him off, she has no reason to think he's reliable.
Not really. What happens if she tells Jon? He waits for an army that might not even come. Littlefinger would wait until the battle started to minimize his own losses. Even if he did come, Ramsay would stay holed up in his castle because he'd see that he was outnumbered, and then the battle would become a siege, which the Starks would definitely lose. Jon being stupid, on the other hand, is 100% within his character. Ned, Robb, Jon, all of them would have done that. It's who they are.
Nafis Khandker Not true. The books clearly show Jon as an able battle commander, as was both Robb and Ned. His taking command of and securing Castle Black during Mance's siege show the beginnings of Jon being an able commander and tactician. In the books it is Jon acting as adviser to Stannis on how he was to claim the North. In the show it is a mixture of Sansa and Davos that advise Jon on how to claim the North. Jon clearly knows the lands and its peoples well and knows what Stannis must do to convince the Northmen to fight for him. Jon's decisions as Lord Commander are the wisest decisions that person in his position could make. His downfall was his inability to detect treason amongst his ranks. The 5 books and the first 4 seasons of the show are clearly molding Jon into the perfect King, much like what Varys is trying to pull off with Young Griff. The shows plot is dumbing down his character for plot convenience.
Thank you Cenk, Sansa may be the worst character in the show. She unfortunately has become a pawn and I am really confused as to why the show is focusing on her, this was Jon's victory, not her's. I mean, if the show wanted to redeem her they should have had her formulate a plan to defeat Ramsay, not just say 'i don't know' and run to Littlefinger to save them. Also Cenk was right about Ramsay being smart, he was as good a general as Hannibal in the Battle of Cannae (where Hannibal pulled off arguably the smartest tactical move in military history).
Sansa is hardly the worst character in the show. Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes are (well, the sand snakes are kind of fun, their storyline is just dumb as hell).
"Jon's victory"? He literally led his army straight into the jaws of Ramsey's trap. If the Knights of the Vale had not arrived, the Stark forces would have been annihilated.
That's true, might have been Littlefinger's, I was just trying to convey that it wasn't Sansa's (even though that is what the show was telling us, having the episode end on her)... Perhaps we'll call it a victory for the north.
I been thinking about Sansa's behaviour and come to the conclusion that Sansa didn't trust the war council to keep the Vale knights secret. While Sansa cares for Jon maybe she doesn't trust his judgement and the company he keeps. After all Jon trusted the Watch and was murdered for it. From Sansa's perspective Jon's closest advisors are 1.A wildling 2.A foreign knight who recently served a king known to use blood magic and 3.A dodgy priestess known for burning people alive. Hardly inspiring stuff.
I think the point was that lord of the rings, which used to be considered by many to be a benchmark of the genre, has been stupendously outclassed in terms of story telling and stakes by GoT.
The death of Ramsey Bolton was so satisfying. He was such a sadist in life, it was only fitting that he die in an excruciatingly brutal manner, using the very same instruments of death that he used against others - his vicious dogs. I only wish that Joffrey died in an equally painful manner. I thought, given Joffrey's equal penchant for sadism, that he got off too easy being poisoned.
You cannot be serious. You don't think Joffrey died a grueling death? I think getting poisoned like he did where his skin transformed through colored shades of various hues ad nauseaum as the toxin tore its way through his internal organs looked excruciatingly painful. Actually, if I had to choose between the two deaths I'm kind of leaning towards getting eaten by dogs. At least the pain would be confined to flesh wounds on my body instead of fever, bloating, indigestion, and feeling like I was going to hurl my guts out or shit my intestines straight out of my ass.
+el80ne I'm not sure it's the same anymore, but in the book the poison causes your throat to swell and you asphyxiate. In reality dogs eat their prey alive. They disembowel and eat your intestines first. It's at least several minutes of being eaten alive. That's worlds worse than choking to death in my opinion
Zaccheus4 Yeah they're both terrible ways to die no doubt. I thought Ramsay said the dogs go for the low hanging fruit first by going immediately for your eyes or nuts. Yeah I guess that wouldn't exactly kill you, getting disemboweled sucks and would be more viscerally grueling. Ok, yeah maybe poisoned would be a bit better but sometimes if I get stuck somewhere with indigestion without alka seltzer handy it gets me thinking how severe indigestion and sickness is a form of torture itself and it looked like Joffrey suffered much worse. I don't think he escaped with a relatively pain free death as one might suspect if he were fed poison with some milk of the poppy to wash it down.
Zaccheus4 If he died by choking yeah. But the show didn't appear to portray him as having been killed by asphyxiation. They made it a far more grueling death based on the way he expired under duress of that poison.
Okay, so Cenk thinks Lord of the Rings is unwatchable and Sansa is the third most hateful character after Ramsey and Cersei. He has lost ALL credibility with me.
Two thoughts: 1. Cenk had a great point about Littlefinger's fashionably late arrival. 2. Don't underestimate how important the Blackfish and Riverrun were to this episode. We saw The Blackfish in Sansa and we saw his opposite in Jon and both were heavily emphasized by the previous episodes. The Blackfish didn't *want* Edmure to die, he loved his nephew. But he knew that any control over the situation was an illusion, so when presented with the threat of his death he said "Fine, do it." Because he knew Edmure's fate was out of his hands. Sansa perfectly understood this, and her response to Jon is meant to mirror the Blackfish. She is as hard, but calculating, as a 60 year old battle commander. Jon, on the other hand, does not care that it's a trap, that it's out of his hands, that fate has already been decided. He literally will die for his men and those he loves, if only to get a *chance* at changing the unchangeable. Both Jon and the Blackfish are willing to sacrifice for their men and what they believe. The Blackfish will sacrifice his own heart, and the lives of others, for the greater good. But Jon will always and forever sacrifice himself first, even if it's the wrong move strategically, even if it's suicide.
Sansa"s defense: We don't know how much she knew before the battle. As to her behavior, I came out of an abusive relationship and trust me, it causes you to be afraid in a way that others can't understand. You stay in survival mode for a long time and you don't know how much to say, even with those you trust or who to really trust. In that relationship she probably had to weigh every single thing she said or did to avoid a thrashing ( even how you look at something can be cause for a beating). Not something you can easily stop doing. She went from being an innocent child to two abusive relationships and she is really still a child. Cut her some slack! She will make stupid mistakes until she heals.
Eh? From the civil war and World War I as was cited? Yes we do, we have a very good idea of what happened because we have plenty of firsthand accounts written by the participants of those battles.
clearly you have never been to Sharpsburg Maryland and seen anything about Antietam. There were piles of bodies there! They just kep charging against a stronger line and were just massacred.
Say what you want about Sansa but she literally saved the day!! Jon Snow was beat- Sansa is the real mvp ...So happy to see Ramsey bitch ass die. Wanted Sansa to get more revenge though 🔪. Intense episode loved it💯. Also Cenk your hate for Sansa is irrational
Rickon situation made simple. Jon directs Rickon to run straight to him, Jon watches the trajectory of the arrow, then points for Rickon to turn left or right to avoid arrow. Boom.
I didnt think Johns expression was resignation or 'death by cop'- I thought it was self blame, realisation that he had done exactly what Sansa told him not to do and probably lost the battle like an idiot.
u people dont understand the " game of thrones' if u dont understand why sansa didnt tell jon about the knights of the vale..shes been broken and destroyed since the day she left winterfell for KL with her father eddard stark, shes been a play toy for joffrey , almost killed by her trueborn aunt in the vale and then sold into slavery by the guy who was supposed to protect her by him giving her to the fckin boltons...sansa isnt somebodys toy anymore shes playing the game, shes keeps the informaiton she knows to herself and plays it close to her vest, if she told jon he wouldve blabbed it to ramsey when they parlayed before the battle and ramsey wouldve just stayed behind winterfells walls and never came out if he realized mounted knights on horses were coming because his shield wall wouldve been useless, you people dont understand battle strategy and ur thinking with ur emotional little brains, sansa is the queen of winter...bow down she has played the game and will continue playing the game..jon is honorable and wouldve screwed up the "secret" vale army that they needed to beat ramsey
i totally agree with this, especially giving how they edited/showed sansa's reaction in the pre-battle meeting with ramsey and the night strategy planning with jon. in the meeting with ramsey, the camera shows her reacting to all of ramsey's jibes and false flatteries--especially when he start to dangle rickon as bait to john. sansa already knows what will happen to rickon at that point and doesn't need to know anymore manipulation. Then... throughout jon's battle planning meeting, the camera keeps checking in with her conflicted face--she wants to share, but believes it is not wise, especially after davos says the smart thing for ramsey to do is stay holed up for a siege. she sees the chess board and is willing to sacrifice some people to score a decisive victory by outplaying ramsey at his own chess game.That one guy on the show who hates Sansa--he just doesn't understand Sansa is finally playing the game the way she needs to--not so anyone will save her, but so she can win winterfell and be accountable to her own life.
Agree with that. Sansa used Jon Snow for her revenge. Understandably she had been an abused woman. It's just truly sad thousands other people died! Did I see Sansa shed tears for Rickon?
both jon and sansa were not close to rickon..he was a baby, if uve ever been in a big family then ude know siblings stick to the sibling closest in age with them so Robb and Jon were always closest, Arya and Sansa were always closest and BRAN and rickon then..bran will be more devastated then sansa or jon were period! he was a baby when they were all back in winterfell
Plus, Sansa has evolved from a "dreamer" to a hardcore realist. That is huge character development. No one would bat an eye if a man had behaved as she had... just sayin'.
Jon isn't a bad tectician, he just had way less men to work with, while ramsay had nearly double. The wildlings also weren't use to that kind of warfare to outmenouver that pinser, also being inexperienced to really know ramsay would do that kind of thing.
The Manderlys haven't fought. All we saw were the Karstarks, Umbers and Boltons being defeated. The rest of North should fall in line with Jon, including the powerful Manderlys.
I'm really not one to complain after watching these videos, because I usually love them, but can you guys try to cut down on all of the nit-picking and what not? You guys are spending 75% of the review talking about stuff that annoyed you. I want to hear your predictions, analysis, etc.
They're critiquing the show. It's their job. The reason they nit-pick is because, they said this themselves, the show is so good. They're just finding the tiny things that the show didn't get completely right. It's a testament to how good the show is.
I agree. Even balancing it out to 50% would be an improvement. I bet a lot of ppl would enjoy the analyses & predictions more than just mere nitpicking plot points.
Nah, with Jon being a male Stark and Sansa having spent time with the Lannisters and Littlefinger, people would much more quickly rally and support Jon, as opposed to Sansa. Which is why she needed both gone.
Or because she just wanted to win the battle. If the Knights of the Vale had showed up before the battle Ramsey would have just retreated inside Winterfell and waited them out.
The battle of the Bastards was like the Battle of Bosworth Field. Henry Tudor was fighting hard, but was about to lose to Richard III. At the very last second when it look like it was lost, Sir William Stanley came to his aid, crashing into the side of Richard's men and breaking their lines, winning the battle, and eventually killing Richard. That was a great battle.
The Ironborn aren't allowed to reave, plunder and pillage, but Dany brings a horde of Dothraki to Westeros. In my eyes that can't end well. Guess what Dothraki does best? what they live and die for?.. and what were bolton scouts doing, not noticing the army of vale knights advancing on their position (or did Littlefinger lend them his teleport machine?) - no hate just question I can't find the answer to...I'm sure there is one... but CENK'S Sansa rant was epic
That was my thought too. Maybe the Dothraki will be a little more amenable to change given that all the Khals are dead and she has the support of the crones of the Dosh Khaleen.
Dany thinks she can control both the ironborn and the dothraki. We don't know if she actually will, but she thinks she will. Also, both the Boltons and Littlefinger most likely had scouts but given that the Boltons wouldn't expect Littlefinger and Littlefinger would expect the Boltons, his scouts would be able to sneak up on theirs I imagine.
He never said they attacked there. He said they were waiting there. Keep in mind they think he's on their side so he could simply pass through and say he's there to help, tell them he sent a raven to Ramsay etc.
Nafis Khandker why the fuck would the Bolton men at moat calling listen to the vale keep in mind that the crown is pissed at the boltons for marrying Sansa which everyone thinks she was in on killing Joffrey regardless Ramsey would've heard of the vale army heading towards Winterfell as everyone who lives in the north should've seen them pass or camp and its already been established that no one passes through moat calling without the warden of the north knowing so no you're still wrong
Your point about Sansa being stupid because LF would let the two armies die is wrong, Cenk. He clearly showed up before they all died and saved the day. For the moment, he'll do what Sansa wants until he asks for what he wants. I hope she has her own plan, and am expecting it. I find it lame how you give Littlefinger sooooooo much credit for saving the day and playing it "smart", when all he did was show up at the time SANSA asked him to! Finally, Cenk, you'd obviously rather die than give Sansa props EVEN for things she gets right. I mean, you claim to have loved Ramsay being eaten, but SOMEHOW manage to avoid giving Sansa credit for making it happen!
As for her not telling jon, since the offer was from littlefinger, she obviously didn't know whether or not to trust him. She figured why get Jon's hopes up. ?
You missed the part a couple episodes back where Littlefinger was the one that wanted her to use the Knights of the Vale to begin with. In the end, all she did was what he wanted; just a little bit later than originally planned. Yeah, she surely is the new master of whispers...
Also: Cenk. Ben. You like a show with dragons and magic. You've stepped into the Dork Forest. You've gotta either make peace with it or get the fuck out. Don't shit on the fantasy elements of the fantasy show you're super in to. If you want intrigue and historical politics, go watch The Tudors or something, but don't stand in the shade of the Dork Forest and complain about the trees, dude.
this is possibly the most brilliant battle scene ever filmed. It perfectly conveyed both the large scale strategy and the individual chaos of a battle. On top of that I've never watched a scene that more clearly conveyed the absolute horror and terror of war.
The writer's of the show pretty much said that if Sansa would have told Jon then all the soldiers would of showed up at the start of the battle ( the honorable way Jon Snow does things) and Ramsey would of had time to adjust his strategy before the battle started. This could have caused them to lose.
Davos is not the killing type. He isn't going to kill Melisandre. He worshiped the man that cut off three of his fingers and followed him loyally, receiving nothing more than his scorn for years. If you think he's killing her, you don't understand him.
He literally tried to kill her in the first episode of Season 3 (and at the beginning of the third book). And she hadn't even done anything that he was personally affected by. He was just pissed that she was burning people and leading Stannis down a dark path. He viewed her as evil, and as a "mother of demons", and that was reason enough to kill her. He was desperate to be rid of her evil magic. Now that she has burned a girl he loved like a daughter, what will he do ?
These guys were Sooooooo off in this episode. I don't like Sansa but she pulled a King move by holding the knowledge of the Knights ♘ of the Vale. And by knowing her enemy and her position to become Wardeness of the North. And She DID tell Jon NOT to Do what he wants you to do... And He Just didn't Listen... Hence you can't handle the information of this Vale army I got in my back pocket because you might tip off Ramsey who I clearly kno is smarter than you... one more And THEY'RE not her men. They are Wildlings. Sansa doesn't care if they die...Sansa has become very cold and is slowly becoming Littlefinger 2.0 by learning how to triumph in and by chaos...
John Iadarola, if you watch the scene again, Jon Snow doesn't kill both 2 men who were "fighting each other", and therefore 1 of his own men. ( I thought the same thing on first viewing). A Stark/Snow soldier is knocked off a horse and 2 Bolton men try to stab him on the ground. It's these men that he kills. Hope you see this comment so you're filled in.
Why did they have that fucking scene where they talked tactics! The whole battle through my mind was continuously going: "Hey giant guy, why not grab a giant club, dick. You could've saved a lot of lives there buddy, breaking through." "Hey Ramsey, you've got them encircled, great, why not keep your archers and fire some volleys in there." Normally I barely care about details like this, I'm too much of a pretentious wank, but.. Damn. I've played to much chess I guess.
Because if you have your enemy surrounded by a shield wall it's better to slowly press in and kill them. Why would you shoot arrows into a formation when the arrows would ruin your own plan?
SkipperPlaysTW Me too, so I'd like to respond. 1. I can chuck that up to the storytelling. He's mad and not thinking clearly. How about you fight in the fucking forest behind you, eh Jon. Might help against all those archers and cavalry. 2. In the situation we're talking about here (Jon pincered by Ramseys shieldwall), there's totally no downside to deploying your archers just behind that and fighering semi-laterally. If Jon had done the obvious thing and made a hole he could've been fucked.
Btw, I'm talking about deploying the archers behind/on top of the piles of dead bodies and shooting almost at close range into the tightly packed selection of wildlings.
Me neither, I think Ben wanted to say that Hardhome happened in episode 8 and not 9 like people would expect, but then he mixed everything up by saying “episode 5 or 6”
He was just confused. The big battle was Hardholme (Ep 8). 9 was the death of Shireen and Dany riding Drogon. But 9 is consistently the big one. 1= Ned's death, 2= Blackwater, 3= Red Wedding, 4= The Wall.
what you geniuses fail to take into account is that Sansa sent a letter after turning Little Finger down. For all she knows, Vale reinforcements are not imminent, they probably aren't coming at all, and even if they were, there would be no real way of knowing how soon they would or could get to Stark Camp. Sansa and Jon know that Ramsey has Rickon and will torture him if they wait too long, and they are already on a tight schedule because the reason they're there in the first place is because the undead are advancing down on them.
Seriously, if you guys have to, delay the review for the finale for at most a day so you can get everyone in the review, or at least the same panel as this review because that's what makes these reviews so great! Great review as always! I've said review too many times! Review!
Smartest players of the Game of Thrones seems to be Tyrion, Petyr, Varys, and now possibly maybe Sansa with the help of Petyr. Sansa is a slow learner, but she is learning to stay alive under the worse of times.
Sansa stubbornly refused Little Finger's help when Jon could've used it most. Early on when she meets with him and he's like "Let me help you. I have the knights of the veil. It'll be awesome." And she's all "No! I'm mad at you. Hmph!".... YOU MORON YOUR BROTHER IS GOING TO DIE BECAUSE OF YOU. And thousands of people DID die because of her. She's lucky Little Finger came at all. Sansa is idiot incarnate. Not to mention she doesn't really have a reason to be mad at Little Finger for giving her to the Boltons. Little Finger told her straight up "I'll be honest, I don't know who this Ramsay guy is, so I'm gonna leave it up to you. You can go to Ramsay if you want, or you can stay with me." and she chose Ramsay. And then she gets mad at Little Finger for giving her the choice? The fuck?
Did Sansa actually know that Littlefinger would show up? She sent a letter to him but as a show watcher we really don't know if he was actually going to show up. If the Vale had gotten there earlier and the armies had been evenly matched Ramsey would never left Winterfel and forced a siege.
Something the show doesn't emphasis as much as the books, in the books, there is this saying "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell". It's not really explained, it's sort of like a proverb or superstition people in the north believe, but there are fan theories that this is rooted in an supernatural aspect, related to The Wall's stopping White Walkiers from crossing, and not just as a physical barrier. But anyway, I think the show doesn't emphasis enough how much that idea of having a Stark in Winterfell is worth waging wars for. Yes, they had more numbers if they allied against the white walkers instead of fighting each others, but they might actually really need Winterfell to be held by a Stark in order to stand a chance.
I think Sansa's decision to not tell Jon and the others about the Knights Of The Vale was crucial to their victory. Think about it. If Jon HAD known about the Vale knights and factored them into his plans, there would have been no one to come to the rescue when Jon inevitably fell into whatever trap Ramsey had devised.
Why is everyone assuming that Sansa knew for sure that the Knights of the Vale would show up in time to take part in the battle?...or that they would show up at all?
+Chimera1591 I was wondering the same thing. Sorry guys there are only two that seem to understand the series and books, you've lost me for good. The two rooms are idiots. See ya.
A reminder about something that y'all keep commenting on. You guys keep saying that the Bolton's were in league with Lannisters and that the Lannisters would go up to support them, but when Roose made the deal for Sansa with Littlefinger he rebelled against the Crown, who was demanding that Sansa be returned to them. There was a scene where Roose and Ramsey talk about this but I can't remember which episode.
Jesus the sexist double standard in these comments. Yes, Sansa was absolutely wrong for not informing Jon that she had requested the Knights of the Vale's assistance and that they were garrisoned at Mote Cailin. Her confusing subterfuge here resulted in the deaths of many men (and maybe women cus of the wildling spear wives).
HOWEVER, Jon made an equally terrible mistake which is far less forgivable as he is a seasoned warrior and a tested battle commander. Sansa explicitly warns him NOT to play into Ramsay's games......and Jon proceeds to do exactly that by trying to save Rickon and then solo charging the Bolton Calvary division. This forced the Stark Calvary and Free Folk to rush to engage in order to save Jon. The plan was to let the Boltons charge the Stark forces and then surround them. Jon cost just as many, if not more, lives with his brash, reckless, and emotional response.
So chill out people - Can't we just agree these guys know absolutely nothing about GoT or ASoIaF?
here is the difference,Jon Snow did it for an understandable, he's very fucking loyal to his family he's not going to watch his brother die in front of him if he has a chance of rescuing him, the brother he didnt see for years. Emotion is a reasonable excuse for Jon to fuck over his troops
Sansa had absolutely no fucking reason to hide that informartion from Jon Snow. Jon Snow couldve had alot more options of attack, he couldve saved ALOT more lives, heck maybe Ricken couldve been saved because Ramzy's plan centered around the fact that Jon had less numbers than him. Sansa didnt tell Jon for no fucking reason, she literally fucked over Jon for no reason.
Every comment I'm reading is disliking Sansa for withholding information. Just because she's a woman doesn't mean that every opinion not in her favor is automatically sexist. Woman can be assholes too and having a penis doesn't disqualify you from calling them out on it.
"far less forgivable" Of course he was going to try to save his brother, what do you expect him to do? Just stand there and watch as he gets hit by an arrow and do nothing?
"solo charging the bolton cavalry division" He had no other option, an arrow rain was already in the air. He would have died if he had staid put and he didn't have enough time to turn around.
+Wolfman7870 it does when you single a woman out while blatantly ignoring a male character's arguably larger failings.
Let's remember Littlefinger has poisoned Sansa's ability to trust others and we know she never had any sort of familial relationship with Jon growing up.
Dudes on the Internet seemed so obsessed with rejecting anything ever being sexist or racist but that doesn't change the truth. Complain all you want, it's a stupid double standard and I very clearly criticized Sansa for screwing up as well so I don't know what all of my butt hurt fellow men are all crying about.
Wolfman7870 yup, couldnt agree more!
Sansa: LISTEN TO ME JON!! I KNOW RAMSAY! I CAN HELP!!
Jon: Okay, tell me!!!
Sansa:.....I DON'T KNOW!
She told Jon not to fall for Ramsey's obvious trap... but he did.
But what? That's the thing. Useless advice. "Don't fall for his schemes!"
Just tell him about the Knights of The Vale already!!
Marco Antônio
Then what? The knights show up and Ramsey sits back in Winterfell where they can't get him.
+T. Wiggins no because she had that conversation after the meeting with ramsey. she could of advised him to hold on or wait changing his tactics.
That was a good thing, she did the right thing.
Yes Ramsey deserved to die but I will miss him, great character great actor
I'm glad he's gone. I wanted him dead as much as I wanted Joffrey dead. Both of them deserved worse than the deaths they got.
I just saw that actor in something else with Ian McKellan, they were related and I think Ramsey was going off to college. He closes the door and leaves, then 2 minutes later comes rushing back in and hugs Ian McKellan then leaves again
IT WAS SO GOD DAMN CREEPY to see him smile like normal.
His smile while getting beaten to a pulp by Jon... that was haunting... I mean what a sadomasochist that guy was! Perfect casting. Perfect.
No Joffrey or Ramsay?! Who will bring us those feels???
Ikr! That grin he had while getting beaten to a pulp really prevented me from fully enjoying his death. Even Sansa executing him in the Kennels like the mad dog he is only gave me slight satisfaction. Scumbag really did a number on me.
So Sansa would have been wise to tell Jon about a hypothetical army from a man she doesn't trust.
Yes.
did she acually know that they were comming or was she unsure about that?
+Pyrotess777 of course she was unsure.
+MRostendway that's a good point.
Yes, Jon thought fighting that one on two battle was his best chance of winning and things weren't ever going to improve. If Sansa told him of at least a better than zero chance of another army swooping in to even the odds, they could have coordinated that or at least took it into account.
I don't understand how someone can hate Sansa that much, especially giving Cersei a pass. Sansa has been a hostage for most of this series, and a rape victim. I can understand being critical of a character, but it seems ridiculous to have that much vitriol for her and the woman who helped get her family killed and countless others is less hated. I don't get it.
Its because she is basically the reason why her brother died. She knew the Vale army was coming and she kept it a secret. This secret could have been used to bargain for Rickon's life during the Parley but she kept it hidden and even said out loud "We probably need Rickon to die". Like she basically sent her bro to the grave. Rather than saying "hey, we've got an army double the size of yours thats coming. Your defeat is imminent, so give us Rickon and we will let you join the black (or something). But no! She takes the time to bitch a Jon about nothing but cant take the time to share IMPORTANT, life changing info
So, this was either Sansa, securing her way into the seat of Winterfell and Baelish has truly molded her into a young him. Or this was the writers leaving logic at the door to try to make things seems darker and more serious. Either way... its annoying
Leah Marie I don't think Sansa telling Jon about the Vale would've saved Rickon, especially since he presents such a threat to Ramsay's place at Winterfell. The only thing I can think of that might have saved him was doing what Yara did and sneak in to save him. Ramsay didn't let Theon go and I don't think he would have let Sansa go, they both had to escape. Ramsay knew he could use Rickon to mess up their strategy. If he would have known they had the Vale support I feel like he just would have developed a plan to deal with that. A big Lannister army is in the area, he could get their aid if he thought he was outmatched.
I don't really know if Sansa is trying to make a power grab, but I do know that the Starks are all about family and I think she loves Jon and her other siblings. I don't know if they'll make her turn on him or not in the future. I hope not though. Even though she has learned a lot, Little Finger is better at manipulating people. I know he'll want something for helping them.
At the end of the day Sansa spent the entire night before the battle bitching at jon because the didnt have enough men and how theyd have to let Rickon die - knowing the WHOLE time another massive army was on its way. Ramsay did was he did because he was sure he'd win, because the numbers. If Ramsay knew several thousand more men were coming and he's lose he probably would have heard terms
Leah Marie I don't know if Sansa knew for sure that help was coming. We never saw her receive any word back. I think part of the reason she was trying to delay the battle is because she didn't know for sure that they were getting help. Also, part of Sansa's complaints did have merit. She told him that Ramsay would try and manipulate him. She warned him, but even with that knowledge he ran out in the middle of the battlefield when they really needed Ramsay's men to charge first. I need more info on what all Sansa knew and what her intent was. If she was withholding that info because she wanted Rickon dead or some other thing like that then I can dislike her like others.
Well maybe...but, in reality he could of EASILY said screw it and holed up in Winterfell.
With Winter there (and there should of been a LOT more actual snow on the ground by this time) a siege would have been difficult at best.
Did Cenk call Lord of the Rings unwatchable? That is the most ridiculous comment I have ever heard.
He needs to realize that even George RR Martin would say there would be no "Game of Thrones" without "The Lord of The Rings." I get he has a preference, but... some respect, dood!
Pretty much. He disappoints me greatly sometimes.
I think he was referring to the battle special effects, not the actual storyline
Totally agree. LotR is a masterpiece and is what made the fantasy genre a part of popular culture.
Totally agree. LotR is a masterpiece and is what made the fantasy genre a part of popular culture.
Remember that Sansa never received an answer, so she wasn't sure that he would appear at all. How can you be with a snake like Littlefinger? and why give false hope to Jon then?
Thank you! I figured she wasn't 100% that LF would show, or that he would take their side.
We don't know she didn't receive an answer. In fact I think she did. She rode up with Baelish. Which means she road out to meet him. Which means she knew he was coming.
And even if she didn't know she should have told Jon about the possibility.
+Laverne Blaszczyk (clichegirl) and yet its still her fault. She even said after ramsey that they should wait and right then and there she should of disclosed the information but no. lets watch jon and the army die
I think there's a chance she did know. When Sir Davos was standing at the pyre on the night before the battle he heard a horn blowing. That could have been the call to arms for everyone but a similar horn was blown as the cavalry charged onto the field. When the horn was being blown Sir Davos was the focus of the camera. Maybe a way of showing he remembered hearing the sound the night before.
Could also mean nothing though, hehe
She wanted him to wait and she had the means to convince him to wait, by telling him the truth. Even the suspicion that they *might* come is enough. That would at least get Jon to wait long enough for them to send someone to see if the Knights of the Vale were coming (and clearly they were close given when they arrived). This idea that "she didn't know for sure so it's okay that she withheld information" is absurd and in no way excuses the fact that she did withhold that information.
Guys, guys, you're totally right that logically Sansa should have told Jon about Littlefinger. But, it wouldn't have worked dramatically. Even though it was predictable, it was still dramatic to have the knights of the Vale to come in to save the day deus et Littlefinger.
I would have worked really well. The execution is key. The writers jusr decided to do the same they have done before again. Deus Ex Army. Just like in Blackwater, Watchers and now here.
Did Sansa have a guarantee that Littlefinger would even show up though? Probably didn't tell Jon because she didn't even know if the Vale was gonna show.
Laine Brown
That's no reason not to tell Jon. She still kept vital info from him.
That plot point can be turned around on its own head. Let's have this scenario where Sansa does tell Jon that the Knights of the Vale are coming to aid them. And then Jon is impatient because he's too afraid and worried about Rickon. In his mind, the longer Rickon is with Ramsay, the more chances of him dying. So he doesn't listen to Sansa when she says they should wait for the Vale and he goes off to the battlefield. Sansa instead goes to try to find Littlefinger and the Knights (meet them halfway). Everything else plays out as it did and when the battle starts, Jon (and none of us) have any idea whether the Knights will show up at all. Did Sansa get captured by one of Ramsay's men? Did Littlefinger decide not to bring the Knights of the Vale at all? And then just as Jon and his men are losing, they show up just like they did in the episode.
So i went full fanfic there but yeah that's what I think would have made more sense for the writers and director to have gone with.
Still makes her an ass. And it wasn't dramatic, it was corny. Not only was it cheap 'cause it's just a "and suddenly they were saved" BS that Game of Thrones is supposed to be above, but it's recycled from what Stannis did on top of it. This season has been dumbed down significantly, but I thought they wouldn't stoop that low. I was wrong.
Cenk watches two TV shows, and conclude GoT is LEAPS AND BOUNDS above all other shows, lol...
He is right btw
The giant's tanking game was on point. 1) He pulled all the mobs and 2) He was able to even keep Ramsay Bolton's aggro.
Now if only he could get melisandre to rez him.
Mel is a shit healer.
dps too low, only one of them had Valyrian steel
He would have been a better tank if they had given him a shield. Like, they could have literally just ripped a door off one of the empty castles on the wall for him to use... He could have practically won that battle himself if they did that.
+PitchBlackFox Valyrian steel is top tier legendary all these noobs are just starting out. Jon had to carry his party.
KarstenOkk Sansa is shit support, came in way too late
Aww, I had to stop watching after Cenk ranted about Sansa... she is and always has been my favorite character
sansa was a bitch. she betrayed her father which started this all off. then failed to mention to Jon about little finger. no sympathy for her what so ever
greatest Stark killers in the era:
3. The Boltons
2. The Freys
1. Sansa Stark
Telling Jon wouldn't have changed anything. Tell him that an untrustworthy guy might be coming with an army? And you think little finger would have come days earlier to plan and plot with Jon? And out his soldiers at risk at the start of the battle? Little finger probably only agreed to come near the end of the battle, to clean up whoever was left alive. All the deaths are on Jon, who didn't follow his own plan to let Ramsry come to him. Instead he let his emotions get ahead of himself and lead his army to be almost defeated.
***** true. Sansa learned from her mom. both dumbasses.
My guess is that Flayed men had three purposes:
1. There were the soldiers who came with Ramsay to negotiate with jon. They were flayed so that they won't spread the word that Ramsay won't fight for them and create mutiny.
2. They were the distance markers. so that he can kill recon without fail.
3. Obviously, create fear in hearts of wildlings and make a statement that they are as bad as thenns.
He could have nabbed peasants from any village to serve the purpose. Feudal systems like that where Lords have all the power and peasants and serfs are no more than their property will get treated likewise with no repercussions to the offending lord.
I don't think his men would have held the fact that he refused to fight Jon in one on one combat that he was likely to lose as reason to mutiny. There's a difference between bravery and stupidity and I'm sure men of combat would have no problem understanding the difference.
Great episode - but i don't understand all the Sansa hate for lying to Jon (and this coming from someone who think she's usually dumb as rocks). I think the episodes leading up to last night made it fairly obvious what the show runners were trying to convey.
The scene with Jon and Sansa making battle plans was to remind us that Ramsey will never fall into a direct trap and that Jon was a Stark to the end - all honor and acting off of instinct. So Sansa needed the knights of the Vale to be a surprise to everyone including Jon otherwise Ramsey would have never taken the bait because Jon would've adjusted his strategy.
This was further reinforced when Ramsey and Jon remind us that a smart battle commander would not have charged, but remained encamped within Winterfell and waited the army out. If Jon would've known about the 5,000 knights of the Vale and outnumbered the Bolton/Umber forces, they would've never lured them out of Winterfell and it would have turned into a prolonged seige - which a cavalry would've not had the same affect on.
I usually find Sansa making annoyingly stupid decisions, but believe the way she played the strategy on for the battle relatively well. It's not that she does not trust Jon - she just knows his makeup, and shows that she understands how to play people to manipulate them to get the best outcome... again, all the seasons of training (e.g. cersei, littlefinger, king's landing) of Sansa's character development (and Jons) lead to this, so i think it makes perfect sense.
I think you've got this completely wrong, there is NO WAY Sansa had any knowledge beforehand that LF would join the battle because that wasn't her call to make. Baelish and only Baelish gets to decide if she knows and from what we know of Baelish he ALWAYS looks out for #1. It was to his total advantage Ramsay and Jon's armies decimated each other before he swooped in because we know he has designs on becoming Warden of the North and that requires controlling Sansa again by isolating her and making her dependent upon him. He had to be certain of not just destroying Ramsay, but that Rickon perished too. That way he can make his claim on the North in pursuit of Sansa. And now with Jon's army in ruin, Littlefinger is the de facto power in the North who can freely pursue his claim. And judging from the previews of E10 looks exactly like what he has in mind. It looks like his goal all along was to keep Sansa and Jon in the dark about his support until the moment he showed up and he wouldn't have had it any other way (even if in his ideal scenario he would have liked to see Jon die in the end too to better isolate Sansa from competing influences.
Riding in to slaughter off the remaining Bolton army while Jon's army lay in ruin also dovetails nicely with the Littlefinger Doctrine of rising to be King of the Ashes.
Yes, that is what everyone expects but I think Sansa is out thinking Little Finger and him underestimating her will be his down fall. Sansa is not going to let someone marry her off again. Sansa is not going to depend on LF to save her or keep her home now that she is back there and safe. After what she has been through she will do anything to keep Winterfell.
Well you're right about everything except the siege part. They wanted them to fight in the field. Sieges can take literally years. They don't have that time, and they know it, they know they need to take Winterfell immediately and get ready to fight the White Walkers by consolidating the north. They even said at the strategy meeting that Ramsay is stupid to leave the castle and they're lucky he's choosing to fight them in the open.
But yes, you're right about everything else. Sansa told him they needed to wait for more men, he didn't listen. She told him Ramsay would use Rickon to bait him into making a stupid mistake, he didn't listen. Seems pretty clear that she did the right thing. If Jon didn't take Ramsay's bait and charge straight into them as soon as he was provoked, they wouldn't have been surrounded and slaughtered so quickly and the knights of the Vale would've swept in from the side before the Boltons would be able to retreat an entire army back to the castle.
Shara Banks LF's plan is not to "marry Sansa off". His plan is to marry her himself so he can rightfully claim the title of Warden of the North. And if the previews from the next episode is any indication, he's going to pitch it about him being in love with her though, just as he proved to be hopelessly in love with her mother Catelyn. I just hope she's smarter than to fall for it.
+el80ne I don't disagree with anything you say about Baelish - except about knowing about joining the battle - he already offered this to her 4-5 episodes ago in front of Briene when they were camped up in Moat Caelin.
I'm only talking about her choice not to tell Jon (which everyone's pissed about). Sansa could've told Jon as soon as Little Finger had met her (he had no control over her to make that decision not to), but she decided not to... remembering when Briene specifically asked her why she was lying to her brother.
in my opinion, D&D are trying to show that Sansa is the one "laying the trap" finally.
but like I said, I agree with you that Baelish will ultimately come out on top (like he always does) and that he wanted to fight a depleted force to take over the north. we don't have to guess this - he already told Sansa that was his strategy with Stannis and Roose in season 5.
The most powerful scene in the BoB is when Jon is getting trampled, or as Miguel Sapochnik calls it, "the rebirthing scene," because Jon has to CHOOSE to live. He didn't ask to be resurrected, even tells Melisandre not to bring him back a 2nd time if he dies in battle, and this entire season he's been completely apathetic. He's burned out, doesn't care enough to fight anymore, & says he's going south to "get warm." When Jon is being trampled & suffocating, he makes a conscience decision to live and literally has to claw & fight his way out. Such a powerful metaphor.
Sheesh, few seconds in and I'm already finding myself disagreeing. "Hardhome was a pretty good episode"? Pretty good, huh? Might be the understatement of the year. XD
Lol I hate when people say TV like Hardhome is just ok while simultaneously praising the most basic filler episodes. "Did you see when the guy ate the apple and pushed the table? .. Best episode ever!". No.
lolol... agreed... and if they don;t remember the order of he episodes why talk about it??? they could google before talking nonsense.
+WiseKing GoT does the best filler, but in some crazy way Cenk has become addicted to it. It started in season 1 where they shot way too little for 10 hours and burned through their budget so they had scenes like Viserys talking with his slave or Cersei and Robert talking. That stuff is good, but in no way is it the best Game of Thrones has to offer.
what you guys dont understand is that these dudes watch tones of tv and movies - no way can they remember the order of episodes & shit like that lol - what to you guys is the best tv show you've watched, to them it's just one more.
KarstenOkk Right, I agree, GoT filler is still good.
Notice how Cenk sat there for nearly 5 minutes without saying a word xD
lol, Mindy
I was really impressed with his restraints haha
Lol, I was thinking the same thing! I've never seen him be quiet for that long!
i was think that and then he starting going off on sansa and then I wished he would be silent again. I can't stand that he doesn't understand her. She is one of the best characters!
I give Cenk credit for that. He allowed others to speak first...
Cenk can annoy me greatly but, I will give him the benefit of the doubt on this...
Ben's face when Cenk is saying that he turned off lord of the rings after half an hour is priceless!
I think this was the single most gritty realistic battle that I've ever seen. There was a little too much close up shaky cam at times. But overall it is one of the best battle scenes ever.
Agreed.
The cinematography was fucking badass
Check out Saving Private Ryan if you want to see more action like this episode's
It was cool but it wasn’t realistic. In reality- you do not send your cavalry charging at a force of troops- let alone do that and then shoot them with arrows. Owning a horse in that time period was a very big deal and most cavalry units were Nobel men or directly related to them. How long do you think a lord will last if he gets a reputation for spilling nobel blood like that? What normally happens is both sides line up and then push their peasants towards each other, then send in the professional solders armed with spears and shields behind them to help churn up the meat grinder while the cavalry wait on the side-lines to charge down anyone who routs. It was very rare that Nobel men actually died in those kinds of wars.
It was an example of a battle fought by two men who made a lot of mistakes.
1. Jon charging in blindly with his Calvary - successfully baited by Ramsay.
2. Ramsay meeting the charge with his own Calvary rather than absorbing it with his infantry/pikemen. Ramsay's treatment of his calvary as expendable lost him the battle.
3. Ramsay not having scouts that might have noticed the approach of the Vale's army.
You are wrong by the way, only the Scots made extensive use of pike/spearmen in the Medieval ages. Calvary was the bread and butter, and the good infantry were merely dismounted knights. This was the formula until the English Longbowmen changed everything. Calvary was King, and the Nobility died all the time - although wherever possible they were taken prisoner instead and held for exorbitant ransoms by the winning side.
Source: I've read a lot of historical books on war.
Sansa did that typical woman move of yelling "LISTEN TO ME! YOU NEVER ASK ME WHAT I WANT!" ok...I'm listening, what do you want? "IDKK BUT YOU SHOULDA LISTENED ANYWAY!" Like what?!? She wasn't clear and withheld vital information that could have saved more lives and actually helped the situation.
I dont think Sansa knew Little finger was coming until the day of battle. I dont get all the Sansa Hate ? What she did was questionable but she couldve did nothing and john would have lost the battle
She didn't know. Even if little finger responded there is no way she could have trusted him especially after he sold her to Bolton. People are being way to harsh. She did everything she could to help and behaved like someone who has been through all the betrayal at the hands of people she trusted would
Zaccheus4 Exactly and besides regardless if she is wrong, It still made for an Epic Reveal and Slow Motion shot of the Vail Coming to battle
Where is the outrage about what Jon did. Jon being dumb enough to fall for the trap that Ramsey layed out for him, after Sansa warned him. Yet she is getting shit on. Dumb move on Jon's part of running out and causing his men to run out to protect him which exposed his men to be mostly killed going against what they planned for. Yet Sansa is being blamed for the slaughter of Jon's men because she knew about Littlefinger's army, please.
Sansa knows what a snake Littlefinger is, so she probably didn't know if or when he'd show up even if he did say he'd be there. I know I was wondering if the knights of the Vale were even coming at one point.
I can't fathom how these guys can criticize Sansa so much, usually out of their own ignorance, and yet they all LOVE Daenerys. Daenerys who's made idiotic decisions one after another and would have been dead a hundred times over if it wasn't for plot armour.
So Sansa:
1. She didn't know Littlefinger would turn up, basing a battle plan on the expectation of reinforcements is risky when you don't know if they'll actually arrive (and if they're led by LITTLEFINGER!).
2. The moment she tells Jon about it the situation is no longer in her control. She doesn't trust Jon to make the right decision.
3. She's learnt not to trust anyone, which is wise.
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Outside of that, first they call Sansa stupid for rejecting Littlefinger initially. Why? It makes sense considering Littlefinger is a slippery bastard and they still had other options.
Then they call her 'they stupidest person on the show' because she changes her mind. The fuck? What other choice did she have? And it won the battle in the end.
---
Plus, they ALWAYS ignore the smart things she does. She basically predicted the course of the battle and Jon ignored her. And again, they're forgetting the fact that she's survived all this time by her own wits, how is that not smart? But Cersei is smart for SURVIVING, Sansa is just an idiot - yeah, Sansa didn't do any surviving.
Countless awards, critical acclaim and a billion dollars or so might disagree with your LotR critique Cenk
I'll never understand people's arguments about "realism" in FANTASY movies and TV. The Lord of the Rings movies are also 15 years old now as well. Better technology
My only real problem with LoTR is it's displays of medieval combat.
@Soccer Freak: You do realize LotR CGI and Game of Thrones CGI are several years of difference, right? Technology changes and improves. Quickly too, these days. Had LotR been made today you'd seen a wastly better CGI.
couldn't have said it better myself!
it's a fantasy film/book it was not a true to life documentary about how people fought in real life, sorry not trying to be an ass, but all of this is fantasy something on the history channel. Ya kinda gotta take it with a grain of salt. :)
Wow Cenk, the shade being thrown at Lord of the Rings isn't necessary. There would be no Game of Thrones if it wasn't for Tolkien. I'm so surprised you thought LotR was unwatchable, that's such blasphemy. I understand it isn't for everyone but have some respect. LotR is what made the fantasy genre known.
Boromir was Ned Strak before Ned Stark was Ned Stark
+Atty's thoughts true
Why does he have to respect work of fiction that he doesn't care for? Blasphemy? What is it , the bible or something?
Blasphemy? Respect? Chill out a bit. It's a work of fiction, for crying out loud. You either like it or not. Dont turn it into something it isnt.
as a critic he should know how lotr pioneered the medieval fantasy setting into literature (books,movies) and its large influence on GRRM and the show....
if he cant understand the basic gist of it... then why should we even take his opinions on game of thrones then? it is a review...
i should say that this battle was shit and this game of thrones series is boring cause there is no sex scenes yada yada yada and post it on the interwebz... im just another edgy asshole
I can't believe people hate Sansa for this when she was the smartest here and it's literally thanks to her that they won the battle
Refuses Little Finger's army when Jon needed it most.
Refuses to tell Jon anything about it.
Thousands of Jon's men die a result.
"Smartest here."
Coraline is absolutely right. Think about it. How many men did the Knights of the Vale actually have? Let's assume it was a generous guess of 1000 men. If they would have waited for the cavalry Ramsey would STILL be up about 2000 men and they would have shown their WHOLE hand. Ramsey would have kept his shield wall back to counter the Vale's charge or would have withdrawn behind castle walls. Either way Jon would have lost. Read a book on tactics Bogdan.
She single handedly gave the north over to Littlefinger. With both Jon and Ramsay's army gone, littlefinger is unofficially lord of the north. Any hope that Sansa had of ruling Winterfell died after that battle unless she marries him. Thousands of lives were wasted including her youngest brother. There would be no worries for a siege as it would be too slow to pull 6000 men into Winterfell, Jon would have cut down a good number of Ramsay's army. Also we've seen Wun Wun take down the gate of Winterfell, a siege would last a few days at most. @FWDC Norac The Vale brought more than a 1000 knights, I would say around 3000. Even if jon showed his full hand, the knights of the Vale are trained to bulldoze through shield walls, real war-horses are trained to run down anything.
Kyle Bloomberg Fair points but I didn't see anywhere near 3000 knights. That is a pretty generous estimation you are making. If the Vale did have that many men then why didnt theu just take over the North regardless of who was in power? A detachment of 3000 horsemen is a huge number. How many are left back at home. How big is the Vale's entire army. 20k? 30k? With those numbers they could steamroll the entire North.
***** I agree the Vale could easily take over the north, which they basically have done now with Littlefinger now being the only force in the north. I guess they never did because the Arryns never felt to get involved in the other kingdoms troubles, Lysa was always a recluse but since Littlefinger is now the "ruler" of the Vale he may feel guilty for what he did to Sansa. From what I've read and seen, Littlefinger brought quite a number of knights, it could have been less than what i said but it was definitely more than 1000.
Cenk is pissing me off here. His vitriolic reaction to Sansa is just totally overblown.
Your first mistake was assuming Cenk could be rational
I thought Sanasa was stupid too.
Her whining to and yelling at Jon the night before that he should do something different.
Jon even asks what he should do different, and shes like "I dont know"
And what's with his new unreasonable hate for LOTRs?
ikr, at that point I wanted Jon to tell her to shut the f up
Totally agree. Cenk is a bit misogynistic. Why doesn't he wait until the story plays itself out before drawing conclusions. But like politics, he shoots then aims.
If anyone is going to kill Littlefinger, it's Sansa. She's his only weakness. Littlefinger's hunger for power is because of Caitlyn. He wasn't powerful or high class enough to marry her when they were young, and that lit a fire under his butt. Caitlyn Stark is the only person Littlefinger ever loved, and Sansa is the closest thing he can get to Caitlyn Stark. Littlefinger wants Sansa. He wants to prove to the world and to himself that he is good enough to marry someone like Sansa. This has been a goal of his since he was a boy. And it's because of this love and obsession that he will make a mistake and get killed. It may not be this season, but it makes total sense that Littlefinger will be killed by the only person he actually loves.
Ramsey was a dick, but he was a brilliant techtician!
1. he draws out John by toying with his brother,
2. he forces the Stark troops to attack to protect John (knowing he has a
larger force, the default strategy for John is to go on defense)
3. he slaughters Stark cavalries (with his own cavalries) knowing he's
infantries are FAR superior to stark's, he could just mop up the Stark
fighting men with his Roman shield wall
ok Ramsey's hubris screwed him, he underestimated Sansa's
resourcefulness. But other than that, he did everything perfectly, and
he could have easily decimated John's force.
Sansa is far better techtician than John, she knew john didn't have a
big enough force, and having not enough was no better than not having
any at all. John didn't listen.
She knew Ramsey was good at "setting traps", John didn't listen.
She said, forget about the lil brother, he's as good as dead, John
didn't listen...
The only thing John has is unlimited supply of adrenaline and God like
luck!
Cavalries are the best units during those times (Giants
notwithstanding). So Ramsey taking out Stark cavalries together with his
own, is a brilliant move (2nd to drawing out John to the field) because
John was the last significant obstacle in Ramsey ruling the whole North
(everyone would be screwed when the whitewalkers come, i know). So
Ramsey needed a crushing win, and no reason to conserve strength.
He should have brought his dogs to the fight!!
Cenk is wrong. Sansa read Jon Snow perfectly, she realized that there was no way in hell Jon would defeat Ramsey in battle and that she needed to do something about it. That's why she called in the Knights of the Vale and kept it close to the chest.
Jon is not getting enough credit for his wartime strategic skills. He had the same plan Ramsey had, which was great, but he did not execute because he was willing to take a chance to save a member of his family. Jon is not the guy to let someone he loves die just to take the easy road; he's willing to take risks that are worth taking.
The _running after your brother_ part wasn't the issue, it was what happened afterwards.
Charging into an army on your own isn't a 'risk' it's suicide.
This!
Jon was the commander, he should have commanded himself.
Liz Smith True. I don't see why the entire force had to run after Jon. It looked to me like Jon was on a very dangerous rescue mission; no need to run after him if he is highly likely to die. Jon was acting like he had a deathwish most of the episode. He did not even want to be brought back to life if he died. That just shows you that he was not thinking like most people.
Toast ghost Jon didn't even want to be brought back to life. He's been acting weird ever since he came back to life.
People don't seem to understand Sansa at all. Two lines for me epitomize Sansa's whole (and sound) thought process, one this season and the other back in season 4.
The first is when she tells Jon "You can't save me, no one can save anyone" this is a lesson she learned the hard way and a lesson that might have saved many other characters from their blind trust, she knows that in the end she can't trust anyone to save her and thus has to rely on herself, if she tells him about the knights of the vale he might waste that army on a poorly thought out plan that accounts for no other contingencies (like the one he had); he might waste that army by making a rash decision in the middle of the war (like the one he made, and it's important to note that poor military strategy was his downfall in the battle, not his lack of numbers), or he might dismiss the army all together out of mistrust; to be fair he might also have ended up waiting when he found out he'd have more forces and might have used them wisely, but we don't know that for sure, and neither does Sansa, which brings me to the next quote, the one in season 4 after Sansa ends up saving Little Fingers life by lying, when he asks her why she did it she says "they would have thrown you through the moon door, what would they have done with me?" when he says he doesn't know she responds by "neither do I", this is another important lesson she's learned well, never tell people something when you don't know how they'll react, never gamble with your life on something that's unpredictable, stick to what you're certain of if you want to survive in this world. Sansa made the only play that guaranteed that she'd survive, she knows that in the process she risked her brother's life, which is why she looks away for a second when he sees her with the army, but she's learned the lesson that he (and their father) never could, sometimes the honorable way isn't enough, sometimes honor and trust get you killed, how many Starks do they have to behead before you figure that out.
Fantastic discussion! Best forum of its kind on RUclips. I've been searching for something like this for what seems like ages! Smart, in-depth but not too much droning on, incredible analysis. Top shelf job, boys!
I find it strange that Sansa has been conveying her whole "I'm gonna be the Lady of Winterfell" when it's actually Rickon who is the legitimate King in The North. It's like she never planned on him surviving from the very beginning. That's either stupid, or malicious. Also, had she told Jon about the Knights of The Vale, they could have gone into the negotiations as the stronger part, and therefore demand Rickons release.
She must have also been sure that Littlefinger was going to show, as she arrived with him, meaning she must have received word that he was in the area. Ramsey should of course also have known this, as that is pretty much the largest standing army in The North, and they have been on their way for a while. Littlefinger is the greatest general of all time if he could keep that army hidden for that long without anybody finding out.
Does nobody remember how Jon Snow was *this* close to breaking his vows and leaving the night's watch for Robb? Its not such a surprise that he'd go running alone to save his brother Rikkon
After some thought, I am more and more convinced that Sansa made a mistake by not mentioning the Knights of the Vale. She tried to warn Jon... true. He was mistaken to fall into Ramsey's obvious trap.
But he all but BEGGED her for some other idea. She could have mentioned the letter she sent (or the Knights she has stashed if she already knew they'd made it). Jon might have waited if he had something else to work with. Jon was stupid and reckless... but Sansa let him go and get his army destroyed... and is now at the mercy of Baelish.
People are raving on about how Jon is a failed commander, but actually it was Davos who gave the order for the men to follow Jon to their deaths. Jon was on a suicide mission, going out there alone in a blind rage, but if I remember correctly he didn't signal for his men to follow him.
Here are my reasons of why Sansa didn't tell Jon about The Cavalry.
1- She doesn't trust Littlefinger, she didn't know he would be coming for sure.
2- Jons army will fight their hearts out knowing that they're outnumbered.
3- Ramsey was overconfident, killed a lot of his own men, he went all in, thought he had won, and that's what Sansa wanted Ramsey to do.
4- The army, the horses, were in the snow. What happened to Stannis could've happened to them, there could've been a snowstorm. Also, as Jon said in the episode, they had to proceed and go to battle, before they starve and have no will to fight.
So even if Jon knew that reinforcement was on the way, he had no other choice but to go and fight, again they don't trust Littlefinger, and on top of that, Ramsey has Rickon, therefore Jon is a bit impatient not knowing what Ramsey is capable of.
Sansa was the one to push Jon to battle Ramsay. She is said "a monster has our home, and our brother", then says forget about Rickon, he's dead. Sansa whines and moans about Jon not asking her opinion, then when Jon asks her what to do, she says 'I don't know'. Then at the end we're suppose to applaud Sansa for being 'smart', and letting Ramsay be ate alive by his dogs. We're suppose to hate Ramsay when he does that shit but love Sansa when she does it? Violence and cruelty is still violence and cruelty no matter who is committing it.
I love people like you. Thank you for understanding logic. So few people seem to be able to think clearly about the Sansa-Jon situation.
She did it to fucking Ramsay Bolton the most evil man ever you fucking idiot, he deserved worse
The big episode last year was 8, Hardhome. Episode nine was Dany riding Drogon in The Dance of Dragons. Nothing battle like happened in 5 or 6.
Wait. But, are you sure Sansa got a response from Littlefinger that he was joining the battle? Does she even know her raven made it to the Vale?? And, if you recall Sansa did tell John to wait, that they weren't prepared to face Ramsey's forces.
The Flayed People on the Battle Field served as distance markers for Ramsay when he shot arrows at Rickon, the fact that they were on two sides and on fire also gave him an indication on the wind direction and speed.
Littlefinger betrayed Ned Stark. That's the only reason I can think of why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale, because Jon wouldn't work with someone who helped kill his father. Its the same reason why Theon wouldn't come with Sansa to Castle Black, Jon would have had his head for killing two boys and betraying Robb.
15:40: If he just kills Jon, then what? It's a big loss to the opposing force, but it doesn't change the composition of the battlefield any. Provoking Jon into the charge was what he wanted.
17:10: Attack at night? When the Boltons are holed up in the castle?
It's pretty discouraging seeing your commander die before the battle even begins, so I guess that's a thing.
Well sure. But what's more advantageous: killing the commander, or encircling the entire opposing force, commander included?
Funny story when i saw that I honestly thought of it in video game terminology, in which you fight a boss battle and you kill the guys who will deal more damage to you in that moment so it honestly made a lot of sense
Hate Sansa more than Cersei? How is that even possible? Do you even remember what has Cersei done,and what ahs Sansa been through? I really liked Cenk the most, but after that comment. It says so much about the way he sees and understands the show...
I completely disagree with their opinion on Sansa. Going what she has gone through, she is right not to trust anyone. Even though we know Jon is completely trustworthy, she knows nothing about Davos and Tormund... what if one of them was not to be trusted? She had to keep some cards to herself, only she knew the extent of Ramsay's torture and his sadistic nature. Jon knew nothing about it, only what he had been told.
The battle was simply incredible. You actually had an idea of the battlefield with Winterfell in the background and the forrest on the other end witht he armies in the plains in the middle. There was a sense of direction, scope and proper dimensions that one never gets in any movie (at least not that I can remember).
Simply brilliant
The arrow firing choice of Davos and Ramsay was not only an ethical one, but also a pragmatic one. Nearly all the Stark forces were engaged in that fight, while only a fraction of the Bolton forces were.
Also, I can't believe you guys messed up the cheekiest and best line of the episode:
Daenerys: ...and I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands.
Yara: I never demand, but I'm up for anything really.
Ben, of all people, how do you miss that?
Yes! That was such a great exchange.
Can you blame Yara, Emilia Clarke is fiiinnnneeeee
She's a chubby little midget.
Am I the only one who got the impression she didn't expect Littlefinger to show up at all? Her plans for the battle day were saying on the camp and committing suicide if the reports said Jon had lost, she never got a response from him so how should she have guessed he would come after she threatened to have him tortured and murdered on his last meeting?
Wow did he really just put Sansa in the same category with Joffery!?! Wtf?? lmaooo.
When Dany told them "No more reaving", I think Yara's only hesitation was on behalf of her people. I think she herself would be fine being a more traditional Westerosi Lord. Just my opinion. I do agree that Theon is fine with it because he is done with violence, like Brother Ray. Also, politics aside, I do really want to see Dany and Yara hook up. xD
*edit: I also have to say, I freaking love Yara's stance when she is talking to Dany. So much power. That is some top acting there.
These weekly Thrones reviews, are without question, the best in existence. Trust me, I watch almost all of them, WTF is the best of all of them, and by a good margin. Excellent job the last few years gentlemen, well done.
I've watched several breakdowns of this episode and people keep missing the obvious... If Sansa told Jon to wait for the Vale, then Ramsay would have seen the Vale army and would have said, yea F this, lets just make them come to us in Winterfell and they may have lost trying to siege a damn near unsiegable castle.... It sucks but whether she knew it or not, it had to go down this way. If they waited, Ramsay would have fought a different war... this way Ramsay was caught totally off guard
Agreed.
Sure thing, there is no other strategy other than showing your enemy the entire strength of your army. No way they could have hid reinforcements until the exact right moment to ensure the least loss of life. I hope Littlefinger owns all of these losers.
The Vale knights showed up like, 20 minutes after the fighting started. If we're talking realistically, Ramsay should have had scouts that spotted them days ago.
+Coldsun3000 Okay, let me just break it down once and for all.
#1 They don't have to fucking parade the Vale army in front of Ramsay's door. There is such a thing as discretion.
#2 Okay, say Ramsay does see through it and hides in his castle. Then what? A siege. And that is bad for the Starks, how, exactly? They lost their entire army in open battle, now at the mercy of Littlefingers knights. A siege would have spared virtually all Stark soldiers. "Near unsiegable" give me a fucking break. A hardly strategic Theon managed to take Winterfell with like 500 men.
+KarstenOkk 1. how can you hide a army?? lol that's not gonna happen... sorry you may not know medieval history... which is ok... but any set of scouts would see them coming... you are introducing a new strategy to this... that Sansa tells Jon they are coming... then they all say hmmmmmm ok great now let's hide their army in the bushes, thennnn go out and fight and die thennnn they can swoop in!!! Thats stupid and impossible....
2. Theon took winterfell cause the entire army was south fighting a war.... lol... it's said several times in the series, idk how much you watch it or not, but Ned Stark says 500 men could defend Winterfell against 10,000... Theon even repeats this... like we have to take the characters word for it.... so yeah sorry to shut down all of your rebuttals but no... these are misinformed... sorry dude
I might be missing something. How was Sansa supposed to know about the Knights of the Vale? Littlefinger suggests Sansa get the aid of her uncle, Blackfish and the Tully forces. When was she informed that there was a good chances the army of Arryn would also show up?
Littlefinger had offered his forces to her but Sansa had declined them.
She seems to have known they were coming enough to have rode off to join up with them.
+Alejandro Castellanos but we saw the scene with Littlefinger getting Robyn to mobilize the Knights of the Vale way before she wrote the letter, and we didn't get a scene of her receiving a letter back in time for the battle. What if she told them the Knights of the Vale were coming and Littlefinger didn't show up? She declined him last time and told him off, she has no reason to think he's reliable.
+Alejandro Castellanos yes for sure! But I don't think we can hold Sansa accountable for not predicting it.
I think in Ep8 there's a scene where she finds some ravens.
The issues with Sansa and Jon's lack of intelligence is purely because of the writers need to drive the plot.
THANK YOU. Some people commenting here seem to have no concept of how a story unfolds.
It's just bad writing.
Not really. What happens if she tells Jon? He waits for an army that might not even come. Littlefinger would wait until the battle started to minimize his own losses. Even if he did come, Ramsay would stay holed up in his castle because he'd see that he was outnumbered, and then the battle would become a siege, which the Starks would definitely lose.
Jon being stupid, on the other hand, is 100% within his character. Ned, Robb, Jon, all of them would have done that. It's who they are.
Nafis Khandker Not true. The books clearly show Jon as an able battle commander, as was both Robb and Ned. His taking command of and securing Castle Black during Mance's siege show the beginnings of Jon being an able commander and tactician.
In the books it is Jon acting as adviser to Stannis on how he was to claim the North. In the show it is a mixture of Sansa and Davos that advise Jon on how to claim the North. Jon clearly knows the lands and its peoples well and knows what Stannis must do to convince the Northmen to fight for him.
Jon's decisions as Lord Commander are the wisest decisions that person in his position could make. His downfall was his inability to detect treason amongst his ranks.
The 5 books and the first 4 seasons of the show are clearly molding Jon into the perfect King, much like what Varys is trying to pull off with Young Griff. The shows plot is dumbing down his character for plot convenience.
JeffDoogins You summed it up perfectly!
Thank you Cenk, Sansa may be the worst character in the show. She unfortunately has become a pawn and I am really confused as to why the show is focusing on her, this was Jon's victory, not her's. I mean, if the show wanted to redeem her they should have had her formulate a plan to defeat Ramsay, not just say 'i don't know' and run to Littlefinger to save them. Also Cenk was right about Ramsay being smart, he was as good a general as Hannibal in the Battle of Cannae (where Hannibal pulled off arguably the smartest tactical move in military history).
Sansa is hardly the worst character in the show. Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes are (well, the sand snakes are kind of fun, their storyline is just dumb as hell).
"Jon's victory"? He literally led his army straight into the jaws of Ramsey's trap. If the Knights of the Vale had not arrived, the Stark forces would have been annihilated.
That's true, might have been Littlefinger's, I was just trying to convey that it wasn't Sansa's (even though that is what the show was telling us, having the episode end on her)... Perhaps we'll call it a victory for the north.
I been thinking about Sansa's behaviour and come to the conclusion that Sansa didn't trust the war council to keep the Vale knights secret. While Sansa cares for Jon maybe she doesn't trust his judgement and the company he keeps. After all Jon trusted the Watch and was murdered for it. From Sansa's perspective Jon's closest advisors are 1.A wildling 2.A foreign knight who recently served a king known to use blood magic and 3.A dodgy priestess known for burning people alive. Hardly inspiring stuff.
I really don't know how anyone could listen to reviews from people who think Lord of the rings is bad.
LotR was terrible, The Hobbit was worse.
+Bramble451 Hobbit certainly was a disappointment, but i must disagree on lotr :)
I found LotR to have nice cinematography.
That's it....
Not bad... just shallow.
I think the point was that lord of the rings, which used to be considered by many to be a benchmark of the genre, has been stupendously outclassed in terms of story telling and stakes by GoT.
The death of Ramsey Bolton was so satisfying. He was such a sadist in life, it was only fitting that he die in an excruciatingly brutal manner, using the very same instruments of death that he used against others - his vicious dogs. I only wish that Joffrey died in an equally painful manner. I thought, given Joffrey's equal penchant for sadism, that he got off too easy being poisoned.
You cannot be serious. You don't think Joffrey died a grueling death? I think getting poisoned like he did where his skin transformed through colored shades of various hues ad nauseaum as the toxin tore its way through his internal organs looked excruciatingly painful. Actually, if I had to choose between the two deaths I'm kind of leaning towards getting eaten by dogs. At least the pain would be confined to flesh wounds on my body instead of fever, bloating, indigestion, and feeling like I was going to hurl my guts out or shit my intestines straight out of my ass.
+el80ne I'm not sure it's the same anymore, but in the book the poison causes your throat to swell and you asphyxiate. In reality dogs eat their prey alive. They disembowel and eat your intestines first. It's at least several minutes of being eaten alive. That's worlds worse than choking to death in my opinion
Zaccheus4 Yeah they're both terrible ways to die no doubt. I thought Ramsay said the dogs go for the low hanging fruit first by going immediately for your eyes or nuts. Yeah I guess that wouldn't exactly kill you, getting disemboweled sucks and would be more viscerally grueling. Ok, yeah maybe poisoned would be a bit better but sometimes if I get stuck somewhere with indigestion without alka seltzer handy it gets me thinking how severe indigestion and sickness is a form of torture itself and it looked like Joffrey suffered much worse. I don't think he escaped with a relatively pain free death as one might suspect if he were fed poison with some milk of the poppy to wash it down.
+el80ne I don't think Joffrey died pain free. But the horror and pain of choking seems mild in comparison to being eaten alive by dogs.
Zaccheus4 If he died by choking yeah. But the show didn't appear to portray him as having been killed by asphyxiation. They made it a far more grueling death based on the way he expired under duress of that poison.
Too much Lord of the Rings bashing in this video. What do these have against those movies? They are fantastic!
Okay, so Cenk thinks Lord of the Rings is unwatchable and Sansa is the third most hateful character after Ramsey and Cersei. He has lost ALL credibility with me.
Two thoughts:
1. Cenk had a great point about Littlefinger's fashionably late arrival.
2. Don't underestimate how important the Blackfish and Riverrun were to this episode. We saw The Blackfish in Sansa and we saw his opposite in Jon and both were heavily emphasized by the previous episodes. The Blackfish didn't *want* Edmure to die, he loved his nephew. But he knew that any control over the situation was an illusion, so when presented with the threat of his death he said "Fine, do it." Because he knew Edmure's fate was out of his hands. Sansa perfectly understood this, and her response to Jon is meant to mirror the Blackfish. She is as hard, but calculating, as a 60 year old battle commander. Jon, on the other hand, does not care that it's a trap, that it's out of his hands, that fate has already been decided. He literally will die for his men and those he loves, if only to get a *chance* at changing the unchangeable. Both Jon and the Blackfish are willing to sacrifice for their men and what they believe. The Blackfish will sacrifice his own heart, and the lives of others, for the greater good. But Jon will always and forever sacrifice himself first, even if it's the wrong move strategically, even if it's suicide.
Sansa"s defense: We don't know how much she knew before the battle. As to her behavior, I came out of an abusive relationship and trust me, it causes you to be afraid in a way that others can't understand. You stay in survival mode for a long time and you don't know how much to say, even with those you trust or who to really trust. In that relationship she probably had to weigh every single thing she said or did to avoid a thrashing ( even how you look at something can be cause for a beating). Not something you can easily stop doing. She went from being an innocent child to two abusive relationships and she is really still a child. Cut her some slack! She will make stupid mistakes until she heals.
way too much LoTR bashing in this video.
I hate when you try to bring up historical examples when you clearly have no idea what actually happened.
Eh? From the civil war and World War I as was cited? Yes we do, we have a very good idea of what happened because we have plenty of firsthand accounts written by the participants of those battles.
It was the Battle of Cannae and nothing more
+TotalWarParadoxFanboy No, the writers literally said the piles of corpses were inspired by Civil War accounts
WW1 was similarly brutal.
clearly you have never been to Sharpsburg Maryland and seen anything about Antietam. There were piles of bodies there! They just kep charging against a stronger line and were just massacred.
Say what you want about Sansa but she literally saved the day!! Jon Snow was beat- Sansa is the real mvp ...So happy to see Ramsey bitch ass die. Wanted Sansa to get more revenge though 🔪. Intense episode loved it💯. Also Cenk your hate for Sansa is irrational
Rickon situation made simple. Jon directs Rickon to run straight to him, Jon watches the trajectory of the arrow, then points for Rickon to turn left or right to avoid arrow. Boom.
yes john, stick up for TLOTR, i'm with you
I didnt think Johns expression was resignation or 'death by cop'- I thought it was self blame, realisation that he had done exactly what Sansa told him not to do and probably lost the battle like an idiot.
u people dont understand the " game of thrones' if u dont understand why sansa didnt tell jon about the knights of the vale..shes been broken and destroyed since the day she left winterfell for KL with her father eddard stark, shes been a play toy for joffrey , almost killed by her trueborn aunt in the vale and then sold into slavery by the guy who was supposed to protect her by him giving her to the fckin boltons...sansa isnt somebodys toy anymore shes playing the game, shes keeps the informaiton she knows to herself and plays it close to her vest, if she told jon he wouldve blabbed it to ramsey when they parlayed before the battle and ramsey wouldve just stayed behind winterfells walls and never came out if he realized mounted knights on horses were coming because his shield wall wouldve been useless, you people dont understand battle strategy and ur thinking with ur emotional little brains, sansa is the queen of winter...bow down she has played the game and will continue playing the game..jon is honorable and wouldve screwed up the "secret" vale army that they needed to beat ramsey
i totally agree with this, especially giving how they edited/showed sansa's reaction in the pre-battle meeting with ramsey and the night strategy planning with jon. in the meeting with ramsey, the camera shows her reacting to all of ramsey's jibes and false flatteries--especially when he start to dangle rickon as bait to john. sansa already knows what will happen to rickon at that point and doesn't need to know anymore manipulation. Then... throughout jon's battle planning meeting, the camera keeps checking in with her conflicted face--she wants to share, but believes it is not wise, especially after davos says the smart thing for ramsey to do is stay holed up for a siege. she sees the chess board and is willing to sacrifice some people to score a decisive victory by outplaying ramsey at his own chess game.That one guy on the show who hates Sansa--he just doesn't understand Sansa is finally playing the game the way she needs to--not so anyone will save her, but so she can win winterfell and be accountable to her own life.
exactly, the panning on sansas face was very deliberate
Agree with that. Sansa used Jon Snow for her revenge. Understandably she had been an abused woman. It's just truly sad thousands other people died! Did I see Sansa shed tears for Rickon?
both jon and sansa were not close to rickon..he was a baby, if uve ever been in a big family then ude know siblings stick to the sibling closest in age with them so Robb and Jon were always closest, Arya and Sansa were always closest and BRAN and rickon then..bran will be more devastated then sansa or jon were period! he was a baby when they were all back in winterfell
Plus, Sansa has evolved from a "dreamer" to a hardcore realist. That is huge character development. No one would bat an eye if a man had behaved as she had... just sayin'.
people say dany wasted so much time but it was smart in a way because now she has a larger army
Jon isn't a bad tectician, he just had way less men to work with, while ramsay had nearly double. The wildlings also weren't use to that kind of warfare to outmenouver that pinser, also being inexperienced to really know ramsay would do that kind of thing.
The Manderlys haven't fought. All we saw were the Karstarks, Umbers and Boltons being defeated. The rest of North should fall in line with Jon, including the powerful Manderlys.
I think the Manderlys with Boltons
Yeah I think they meant the Umbers there.
+Sophia Wilson book spoiler: the Manderly's are secretly morally opposed to the Lannister/Frey alliance
Maybe in season 7
Jon's badassery is enough to make the rest of the North fall in line.
I'm really not one to complain after watching these videos, because I usually love them, but can you guys try to cut down on all of the nit-picking and what not? You guys are spending 75% of the review talking about stuff that annoyed you. I want to hear your predictions, analysis, etc.
They're critiquing the show. It's their job. The reason they nit-pick is because, they said this themselves, the show is so good. They're just finding the tiny things that the show didn't get completely right. It's a testament to how good the show is.
I agree. Even balancing it out to 50% would be an improvement. I bet a lot of ppl would enjoy the analyses & predictions more than just mere nitpicking plot points.
I disagree
You do now the definition of analysis, right?
there's a lot of things this season to nitpick and complain about, don't plan them blame the show writers
Cenk, Sansa didn't want to tell Jon about Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale so she could be the lone ruler of Winterfell.
but Jon doesnt want to rule Winterfell, he is the most down to earth guy.
That's ok Jon will get a better throne...
it doesn't matter what Jon wants the guys who are following him will prop him up as the ruler anyway.
Nah, with Jon being a male Stark and Sansa having spent time with the Lannisters and Littlefinger, people would much more quickly rally and support Jon, as opposed to Sansa. Which is why she needed both gone.
Or because she just wanted to win the battle. If the Knights of the Vale had showed up before the battle Ramsey would have just retreated inside Winterfell and waited them out.
Waiting for your review of this episode all morning. Best GoT reviews, I look forward to your reviews as much as the show.
The battle of the Bastards was like the Battle of Bosworth Field. Henry Tudor was fighting hard, but was about to lose to Richard III. At the very last second when it look like it was lost, Sir William Stanley came to his aid, crashing into the side of Richard's men and breaking their lines, winning the battle, and eventually killing Richard. That was a great battle.
The Ironborn aren't allowed to reave, plunder and pillage, but Dany brings a horde of Dothraki to Westeros. In my eyes that can't end well. Guess what Dothraki does best? what they live and die for?.. and what were bolton scouts doing, not noticing the army of vale knights advancing on their position (or did Littlefinger lend them his teleport machine?) - no hate just question I can't find the answer to...I'm sure there is one... but CENK'S Sansa rant was epic
That was my thought too. Maybe the Dothraki will be a little more amenable to change given that all the Khals are dead and she has the support of the crones of the Dosh Khaleen.
Dany thinks she can control both the ironborn and the dothraki. We don't know if she actually will, but she thinks she will. Also, both the Boltons and Littlefinger most likely had scouts but given that the Boltons wouldn't expect Littlefinger and Littlefinger would expect the Boltons, his scouts would be able to sneak up on theirs I imagine.
Nafis Khandker how wouldn't he expect them they already attacked and conquered moat calling and they are heading towards Winterfell
He never said they attacked there. He said they were waiting there. Keep in mind they think he's on their side so he could simply pass through and say he's there to help, tell them he sent a raven to Ramsay etc.
Nafis Khandker why the fuck would the Bolton men at moat calling listen to the vale keep in mind that the crown is pissed at the boltons for marrying Sansa which everyone thinks she was in on killing Joffrey regardless Ramsey would've heard of the vale army heading towards Winterfell as everyone who lives in the north should've seen them pass or camp and its already been established that no one passes through moat calling without the warden of the north knowing so no you're still wrong
Your point about Sansa being stupid because LF would let the two armies die is wrong, Cenk. He clearly showed up before they all died and saved the day. For the moment, he'll do what Sansa wants until he asks for what he wants. I hope she has her own plan, and am expecting it. I find it lame how you give Littlefinger sooooooo much credit for saving the day and playing it "smart", when all he did was show up at the time SANSA asked him to! Finally, Cenk, you'd obviously rather die than give Sansa props EVEN for things she gets right. I mean, you claim to have loved Ramsay being eaten, but SOMEHOW manage to avoid giving Sansa credit for making it happen!
As for her not telling jon, since the offer was from littlefinger, she obviously didn't know whether or not to trust him. She figured why get Jon's hopes up. ?
You missed the part a couple episodes back where Littlefinger was the one that wanted her to use the Knights of the Vale to begin with. In the end, all she did was what he wanted; just a little bit later than originally planned. Yeah, she surely is the new master of whispers...
Cenk is a shaved gibbon with all his taste in his mouth.
Also: Cenk. Ben. You like a show with dragons and magic. You've stepped into the Dork Forest. You've gotta either make peace with it or get the fuck out. Don't shit on the fantasy elements of the fantasy show you're super in to. If you want intrigue and historical politics, go watch The Tudors or something, but don't stand in the shade of the Dork Forest and complain about the trees, dude.
this is possibly the most brilliant battle scene ever filmed. It perfectly conveyed both the large scale strategy and the individual chaos of a battle. On top of that I've never watched a scene that more clearly conveyed the absolute horror and terror of war.
The writer's of the show pretty much said that if Sansa would have told Jon then all the soldiers would of showed up at the start of the battle ( the honorable way Jon Snow does things) and Ramsey would of had time to adjust his strategy before the battle started. This could have caused them to lose.
Davos is not the killing type. He isn't going to kill Melisandre. He worshiped the man that cut off three of his fingers and followed him loyally, receiving nothing more than his scorn for years. If you think he's killing her, you don't understand him.
I bet you be kills her.
+Chimera1591 you're on.
+Chimera1591 How will he kill the woman who saved Jons life? If anything Jon won't let that happen.
He literally tried to kill her in the first episode of Season 3 (and at the beginning of the third book). And she hadn't even done anything that he was personally affected by. He was just pissed that she was burning people and leading Stannis down a dark path. He viewed her as evil, and as a "mother of demons", and that was reason enough to kill her. He was desperate to be rid of her evil magic. Now that she has burned a girl he loved like a daughter, what will he do ?
Krista Vaillancourt what are the terms of our bet, mi lady?
Even Cenk is noticing plotholes. That's how you know how far the writing's fallen.
These guys were Sooooooo off in this episode.
I don't like Sansa but she pulled a King move by holding the knowledge of the Knights ♘ of the Vale. And by knowing her enemy and her position to become Wardeness of the North.
And She DID tell Jon NOT to Do what he wants you to do... And He Just didn't Listen... Hence you can't handle the information of this Vale army I got in my back pocket because you might tip off Ramsey who I clearly kno is smarter than you...
one more
And THEY'RE not her men. They are Wildlings. Sansa doesn't care if they die...Sansa has become very cold and is slowly becoming Littlefinger 2.0 by learning how to triumph in and by chaos...
John Iadarola,
if you watch the scene again, Jon Snow doesn't kill both 2 men who were "fighting each other", and therefore 1 of his own men. ( I thought the same thing on first viewing).
A Stark/Snow soldier is knocked off a horse and 2 Bolton men try to stab him on the ground. It's these men that he kills.
Hope you see this comment so you're filled in.
Great review guys, and GREAT episode!
Ramsay was crying like an anime fan on prom night.
That trailer still makes me cringe
what?! LMAOOOO
Life's good -- when you're a crannogman block
Why did they have that fucking scene where they talked tactics! The whole battle through my mind was continuously going:
"Hey giant guy, why not grab a giant club, dick. You could've saved a lot of lives there buddy, breaking through."
"Hey Ramsey, you've got them encircled, great, why not keep your archers and fire some volleys in there."
Normally I barely care about details like this, I'm too much of a pretentious wank, but.. Damn. I've played to much chess I guess.
Yeah, Wun Wun needed some gianting lessons.
Because if you have your enemy surrounded by a shield wall it's better to slowly press in and kill them. Why would you shoot arrows into a formation when the arrows would ruin your own plan?
SkipperPlaysTW
Me too, so I'd like to respond.
1. I can chuck that up to the storytelling. He's mad and not thinking clearly. How about you fight in the fucking forest behind you, eh Jon. Might help against all those archers and cavalry.
2. In the situation we're talking about here (Jon pincered by Ramseys shieldwall), there's totally no downside to deploying your archers just behind that and fighering semi-laterally. If Jon had done the obvious thing and made a hole he could've been fucked.
Btw, I'm talking about deploying the archers behind/on top of the piles of dead bodies and shooting almost at close range into the tightly packed selection of wildlings.
I don't remember a big battle in season 5 apart from Hardhome...
Me neither, I think Ben wanted to say that Hardhome happened in episode 8 and not 9 like people would expect, but then he mixed everything up by saying “episode 5 or 6”
JOOGAL1111 *apart from Hardhome*
He was just confused. The big battle was Hardholme (Ep 8). 9 was the death of Shireen and Dany riding Drogon. But 9 is consistently the big one. 1= Ned's death, 2= Blackwater, 3= Red Wedding, 4= The Wall.
Mountain vs Viper was also 8, arguably the highlight of Season 4.
+Sendoh Jin the wall
what you geniuses fail to take into account is that Sansa sent a letter after turning Little Finger down. For all she knows, Vale reinforcements are not imminent, they probably aren't coming at all, and even if they were, there would be no real way of knowing how soon they would or could get to Stark Camp. Sansa and Jon know that Ramsey has Rickon and will torture him if they wait too long, and they are already on a tight schedule because the reason they're there in the first place is because the undead are advancing down on them.
Seriously, if you guys have to, delay the review for the finale for at most a day so you can get everyone in the review, or at least the same panel as this review because that's what makes these reviews so great! Great review as always! I've said review too many times! Review!
Smartest players of the Game of Thrones seems to be Tyrion, Petyr, Varys, and now possibly maybe Sansa with the help of Petyr. Sansa is a slow learner, but she is learning to stay alive under the worse of times.
Soccer Beak I think we will find out on sunday. My guess is that Littler Finger had something to do with that in one way or another.
Sansa stubbornly refused Little Finger's help when Jon could've used it most. Early on when she meets with him and he's like "Let me help you. I have the knights of the veil. It'll be awesome." And she's all "No! I'm mad at you. Hmph!".... YOU MORON YOUR BROTHER IS GOING TO DIE BECAUSE OF YOU.
And thousands of people DID die because of her. She's lucky Little Finger came at all. Sansa is idiot incarnate.
Not to mention she doesn't really have a reason to be mad at Little Finger for giving her to the Boltons. Little Finger told her straight up "I'll be honest, I don't know who this Ramsay guy is, so I'm gonna leave it up to you. You can go to Ramsay if you want, or you can stay with me." and she chose Ramsay. And then she gets mad at Little Finger for giving her the choice? The fuck?
Did Sansa actually know that Littlefinger would show up? She sent a letter to him but as a show watcher we really don't know if he was actually going to show up. If the Vale had gotten there earlier and the armies had been evenly matched Ramsey would never left Winterfel and forced a siege.
Really? No one commented on how the thumbnail says S6E6?
Something the show doesn't emphasis as much as the books, in the books, there is this saying "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell". It's not really explained, it's sort of like a proverb or superstition people in the north believe, but there are fan theories that this is rooted in an supernatural aspect, related to The Wall's stopping White Walkiers from crossing, and not just as a physical barrier. But anyway, I think the show doesn't emphasis enough how much that idea of having a Stark in Winterfell is worth waging wars for. Yes, they had more numbers if they allied against the white walkers instead of fighting each others, but they might actually really need Winterfell to be held by a Stark in order to stand a chance.
I think Sansa's decision to not tell Jon and the others about the Knights Of The Vale was crucial to their victory. Think about it. If Jon HAD known about the Vale knights and factored them into his plans, there would have been no one to come to the rescue when Jon inevitably fell into whatever trap Ramsey had devised.
Why is everyone assuming that Sansa knew for sure that the Knights of the Vale would show up in time to take part in the battle?...or that they would show up at all?
Why the hell is Cenk shit talking LOTR?
Because he can.
+Chimera1591 I was wondering the same thing. Sorry guys there are only two that seem to understand the series and books, you've lost me for good. The two rooms are idiots. See ya.
omg! theres a person that doesnt like a movie. RUN FOR THE HILLS!
Cenk is retarded. They needed a view from a complete idiot.
Can't watch this show while Cenk Uygur is on the panel. Can you do next weeks review without him being on the show? Thanks
it's actually high shutter speed, not low frames per second
A reminder about something that y'all keep commenting on. You guys keep saying that the Bolton's were in league with Lannisters and that the Lannisters would go up to support them, but when Roose made the deal for Sansa with Littlefinger he rebelled against the Crown, who was demanding that Sansa be returned to them. There was a scene where Roose and Ramsey talk about this but I can't remember which episode.