Sexuality, Scripture, & the Soul of Christianity 2 of 2
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- A Public Conversation with Justin Lee & Preston Sprinkle, Part 2: Q&R (Question & Response). Recorded March 10, 2019 at Smithwick Theatre, Foothill College, Los Altos, CA. Follow up podcast interviews with Justin & Preston will be available at www.spark.church/teachings.
![Preston Sprinkle: A Journey Into the LGBTQ+ Conversation [Biola Afterdark Chapel]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fwdf54MOmwE/mqdefault.jpg)
It's sad to think how both of these men have probably gotten so much crap from each of their camps for doing this and being willing to talk to each other, but I have so much respect for Preston and Justin for understanding the importance of having a civil dialogue on such an critical topic.
The time has come to allow ALL to live in the grace of Christ. Christians are not called to cut anyone out of that grace.
I agree with the one guy, I haven’t heard a good reason why it is sinful other than someone’s interpretation of scripture. And I still haven’t. He kind of just said it’s “not holy.” Okay but why? Lol
Preston went at length talking about how God did not intend for same-sex couples. Why? Because procreation is built into the design. Of course you can disagree, but saying that "it's just not holy" is disingenuous. And Justin's view is also "someone's interpretation of scripture."
@@cget but not everyone is built to procreate. That is fine. Why force 100% of people to abide by a standard they themselves cannot naturally fill. It would be one thing if a straight person chooses not to have children, but same-sex attracted people like Justin are not simply choosing to engage with the same sex, they are born or instinctively just like that. Why judge someone by a standard they naturally don't fill? It'll be like Butterflies saying humans are sinful for not flying. We weren't made that way, so it rings hollow.
@gachamansama3703 What do you mean by "not everyone is built to procreate?" And no one said anything about forcing anything. The question is over whether or not the Bible supports same sex relations. Whatever conclusion the viewer draws away with, it's their choice to conduct themselves however going forward. And I think you mean that Justin is choosing to not engage with the opposite sex. If that's what you meant, that's also not true. He wants and seeks a relationship with a man.
It seems to me that it might be helpful to remember just a few decades ago when divorced Christians were shunned from the church, who were considered sinful and therefore not able to be fully apart of Christian community. By and large, the Christian church has moved beyond this black and white way of approaching Christian ethics in the face of millions of lived divorced Christians' experiences. The parallels are not exact. Nobody is born "divorced". But it is an example of getting beyond the need to be judgemental before being in fellowship with other Christian sisters and brothers who don't match our idea of the Christian ideal. In reality, there is no Christian ideal, other than remaining ready -- "My heart is ready." -- to acknowledge with Peter this truth : "You are the Christ. You are the Son of G-d."
Mr Sprinkle is really awful to people who are born in diverse bodies.
What ever happened to fearfully and wonderfully made.
He really isn't. He's most definitely one of the ones who desires to speak, learn & engage in this topic simply because he does care about those suffering with SSA or from Gender Dysphoria. How exactly would you define 'really awful'? Like those in the middle east that toss gay folks off buildings? One Simply practicing their religion & believing in it's teachings doesn't make a person awful. I would think it's awful to not care if a fellow brother in Christ is in trouble. I believe it's awful to prevent children from going through natural puberty, mutilating their genitalia, making them life long dependents on Big Pharma & putting them at risk for inevitable health problems from cross sex hormones. I think it's awful to affirm someone who is suffering from a mental health disorder & encourage them in the belief that they can become something they simply cannot.. so that when that realization hits them, they are in more despair than ever & have a great risk of taking their own life.. rather than encouraging mental health treatment to treat the problem in the first place. You may not like his opinion, but that doesn't qualify it as being awful to someone. And we are all fearfully & wonderfully made, yet we are all living in a fallen world full of brokenness & sin. And does that also mean that Justin is so awful to his friends.. bc he doesn't affirm polyamoury?
Gender IS important to God. He created humanity make and female ...and pronounced it good. The effects of sin on God's good creation are many and tragic.
There are a few presupposition that would need be to be fully exposed (Biblical authority & cultural relevance) before this topic could be honestly discussed.
I'm not sure either are relevant to an 'honest discussion'.. but both are highly knowledgeable in the cultural relevance.
I feel human analysis has made the obvious complicated.
I really wish Justin had responded to Preston about the intersex thing. Because I think Preston has some good points, but I don't think Justin was A. claiming it was common to have ambiguity with these conditions or B. That it was somehow a "third sex" both of these things were in Preston's response but it kinda skirted around everything that Justin said
Mars is being explored for the purpose of habitation, what if life is found there, and the individuals are totally different from us in an abnormal racial and sexual way, would we reject them as a creation of God? We have made what we view as normal an idol.
Of course not. God made the Earth.. and the rest of the Universe & everything in it. However, if there were other sexed beings running around on Mars, we would probably know by now.
Unless by life you mean other humans, there are homosexual and asexual animals on earth. And no one would affirm those creatures are sinful because they're designed that way. Part of the argument is that humans are not designed or intended for that purpose.
The polyamory answer was extremely telling of the mental gymnastics Justin has to do to hold his position. How can monogamy be clearly biblical, but homosexuality require a revisit and reimagining?
Monogamy is not intrinsically based of biblical scripture. It is an ancient practice of marriage. You're making the error of essentially saying "Christians invented morality". No, you didn't
@@gachamansama3703 By biblical, I simply mean prescribed in the Bible. Not invented by it.
@@cget why should we be living by biblical principle?
@@gachamansama3703 Are you a Christian?
The woman talking about marriage had a very warped feminist perception of marriage as set forth by God. Marriage was never about demoralizing women. Men are to love and honor their wife. A man is to love their wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. Nothing more needs needs to be said, there is nothing more beautiful than that.
I actually don't feel either of these men gave solid answers to any of the questions. Very watered down Christianity. Lets just tweek the Bible to suit our desires. That's just bad theology.
33:38 so people dont die anymore? What an explanation. Force fitting ideology . Conformity morality
It's inappropriate for someone who is not intersexed to presume to decide what this phenomenon is and who these persons are based on their own scriptural bias. I feel the same about straight folks deciding only they can understand homosexuality properly & can represent it from God's perspective. Mr. Sprinkle, among other things, attempted to dismiss the significance of being intersexed in a discussion about sexual otherness which I thought was odd. I would encourage anyone to research the topic as well as search RUclips and listen to experiences (often horror stories) of intersexed persons. Only then can one get a real grasp of what these people endure because of our stagnant understanding of human sexuality. Overall I'm a bit annoyed by Mr. Sprinkle. I found him to be smug, arrogant & condescending. He seems to be committed to positioning himself as the new smiling face of the same old garbage the church has been peddling for ages . But something feels off and disingenuous about him. I wouldn't be surprised to learn he isn't who claims to be.
I’m sorry that you feel that way. I’ll agree with you that I don’t think Preston answered the questioned well. He did a decent job, but he didn’t say anything profoundly new that would change someone’s mind.
Having said that, go look at his RUclips channel! The love and grace that he gives to women and LGBTQ people is astonishing!
kevseb66: He listed intersex as understood not as some flat, completely relative feeling. Intersex is not "chosen" as an identity per se. Along with many intersex persons, lumping all conditions -- and they are biological conditions with specific markers -- can be insulting. To presume for e.g. that all intersex persons are ambiguous about their gender is also presumptive.
@@impattman2199 no need for anyone to ask what you think the Bible says about homosexuality.
Science and psychology doesn't know what causes homosexuality. There are clues, but no consensus. The only consensus is that one doesn't choose one's sexuality. So it's not surprising the bible writers were ignorant on the subject.
Completely agree.
Let me guess … these guys don’t spend any serious time discussing the actual proof texts?
The last question was interesting. Go forth, multiply and be fruitful, has led the planet to environmental degradation. Maybe homosexuality is God's answer to an overpopulated planet.
Its really fascinating to watch how hard Christians have to struggle to make sense of their bronze age superstitions in a modern context. They 're super concerned about offending audience members by outwardly saying that being homosexual is not allowed, that polyamory should be illegal, or any other things that in a modern context obviously make no sense and in which people should be free to engage in if they want.
So they couch their language in friendly banter and jokes and act is if this is just a friendly academic seminar, giving extremely verbose answers to simple questions, all in an attempt to obfuscate the simple truth. That they are openly discriminating against gays, trans people, polyamorous couples, and beyond. Or he pretends that talking to audience members beforehand (29:30) can somehow undo the damage their words will have, as if all you need is a therapy session.
I think the audience can see through these obvious attempts at obfuscation. They should have at least been honest, they simply think there is no room for LGBT members in the church. Don't pretend you are accepting them when you're not.
Don't make it so hard to understand. God said don't do it, so don't do it.
You are totally right. I have same sex attraction, but i won't ever try to change the word of God.It's not done . God is Almighty .
Are you talking about divorce or how a man is to gouge their eye out if it causes them to stumble?
Only God didn’t say not to do it in the sense of what your talking about.
@@jfish032 says the simpleton!
@@Mrguy-ds9lrWould you care to elaborate on what you mean by simpleton in this context?