As someone who doesn’t believe in god. It’s nice to hear this conversation but I’m not a fan of Preston Sprinkle. How can he boldly ask people who are gay to give up on marriage when he is happily married? He makes it sound like it’s this easy thing to give up on
What an incredible debate this was. So cordial and inspiring. I don't go to church and recently began believing in God again, the reason being the one they mentioned in this video. As a woman who loves another woman, and having been raised in the church, I highly identify with this video. I find it to be soooo true that the church has lost its course and true meaning in what "love your neighbor" truly means. I've been able to broaden my family's scope and open their eyes that gay people are not bad, we are normal people just like them and we also deserve to be treated with love and respect. This debate was truly uplifting and a breathe of fresh air. I hope more people can be open to debating this way instead of putting each other down. Thank you
From the First statment of Preston So, Preston in ultimate instance believes If you are LGBTQ+ you need to be in celibacy, but why God would put a big desire for marriage in my heart, and the dream of a family If I'll have to be celibate, sounds like torture to me, and Thats not who my Father is, a manipulator, and to say I have to marry a man is even worse, is double torture. Second, mens are married to Jesus, so are they gay and in ultimate instance in sin with Jesus? Cause following this logic mens are never going to be able to be save, cause in Romans when Paul talks about marriage the mistery is the marriage between Jesus and the Church, Thats what marriage is about in ultimate instance, an image of our relationship with Jesus and that doesn't implicate sex difference.
Justin, I find the spirit of kindness and grace that you bring to this discussion deeply inspiring. Thank you for all of your work and for the grace you have displayed here.
It's seems that if it comes down to being right or wrong regarding LGBTQ+ inclusivity in the church that it would be best to err on the side of loving people and providing a safe and loving environment instead of withholding the gospel from people because they happen to be born non-hetero normative.
I had a so deep experience with God about this, and God keeps reafirming this in my spirit and as the time passes I just get more sure I was made this way by Him
I can't help but notice some flawed arguments coming from Preston. He says he doesn't believe that marriage is essential for humans, and yet, when God created Adam He said "it's not good for you to be alone". It's no wonder Preston doesn't relate with the crushing feeling that you are going to be alone your whole life: he's a straight man. He's praised for doing the same things that would "send lgbtq+ people to hell", wich is: finding a suitable partner and living a happy married life. Ask him if he could live without phisically expressing his love for his wife. Celibacy can only be Holy when it comes from love, not from fear. Some people are called to celibacy. But imposing that to someone who only wants to be loved and cared for brings nothing but pain. How could pain bring us closer to a God of love? Yes, he is right: you CAN be fully human without sex and without marriage, there are lots of single people out there to prove so. But if you are FORCED to a life without marriage and sex, you would never be complete. Because here is something Preston seems to forget: marriage and sex are both expressions of love. Love is essential to everyone, and until the church acknowledges that, nothing is ever going to change.
Justin, I love your socks! Where did you get them? Seriously, this was a very helpful video for me to watch and listen to. More of these types of discussions, not arguments or debates are needed. Thank you Spark Church for sharing this.
To me now is so clear I can have a family, I pray for my partner, and I wait on God. And so clear through my relationship with God that the church is getting this so wrong, but God's changing this.
I appreciate your honesty in sharing this. To me, from reading the Bible, the opposite is clear. I know my own heart can often mislead me. But the church needs to do a better job offering genuine family and community to all people regardless of sexual orientation. That starts with me
Amen ♥️ "And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” - Revelation 21:5
i’m an atheist, but it’s very refreshing to hear the analogy about having to give up marriage. Finally someone gets that the question is not just about sex.
Am I understanding correctly that Preston's teachings are that marriage must be between 2 different genders and is therefore not available to gay couples and yet "sex" is a sin outside of marriage. So he is wanting to attract gay christians to his church who are essentially expected to live without physical expression of love? Why on earth would I want to be part of that church? And I notice he IS married with children despite saying that marriage and sex are overrated and non essential.
I've read Preston Sprinkle's book 'People To Be Loved'. It's one of the most patronizing things I've ever read. It's filled with self-congratulation for treating gay people with 'respect', and teaching others how to do so. It sounds as if he's telling people how to speak to someone with a terminal illness. He doesn't respect us at all. He takes great pains to present differing interpretations on what passages from the Bible mean in regard to homosexuality, but ultimately it's unconvincing to anyone who doesn't already see homosexuality as wrong. The entire book is an exercise in proving to himself and to the christians who read it that gay people are less than they are, because the Bible says so, and that it's just the way it is. He calls us 'broken', and that we'll need to find a way to be satisfied never being able to have a partner or have sex. "I don't buy the unchristian notion that denying gay people a same-sex spouse is tantamount to denying them a fulfilled life.", he proclaims toward the end of the book. What that really translates into is "If you can't fix your same-sex attraction, well hell, just live with it and suffer." Are you kidding? He follows with this gem: "Whenever I give a talk on homosexuality to evangelical Christians...I try to humanize homosexuality so that we don't just banter about concepts, verses, and political debates about gay marriage. I make sure that we all understand the intricacies of homosexuality and the diversity of people's experiences." Wow. 'We all understand'? Are you sure you're not actually God? Sure sounds like you know everything about gay people. This 'kindness' of his isn't kind at all. It just talks in conciliatory phrases and fake empathy. I can't believe that Justin Lee was able to sit there and listen to his shit.
Guys, thanks so much for demonstrating such respect for each other's positions and one another as people! PLEASE do a part II where you do delve into the relevant Scriptures!!!
I agree. I happen to believe that homosexuals are just one example of a eunuch. Specifically, born so from the womb. I read on a website once that in ancient times, such persons were referred to as natural eunuchs as opposed to man-made eunuchs.
Great work to both these guys , both wanting and seeking truth with God as it’s centre, mature and strong , seasoned with love and tolerance, even both men being big enough to agree to disagree , bravo 👍 unlike some of the unfortunate intolerant comments that have been posted .
The Sprinkle hides behind a judgmental view with big theological words. It is also very easy for him to say life is not about marriage and sexuality. He also misses the point of intimacy.
The Church could never fill the roll of life partner. If it could the LGBTQA debate would have never happened. Further there is absolutely no prohibition in scripture for same sex love. In fact I would go so far as to say it was celebrated in the case of King David and Johnathan in Samuel.
![Preston Sprinkle: A Journey Into the LGBTQ+ Conversation [Biola Afterdark Chapel]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fwdf54MOmwE/mqdefault.jpg)
As someone who doesn’t believe in god. It’s nice to hear this conversation but I’m not a fan of Preston Sprinkle. How can he boldly ask people who are gay to give up on marriage when he is happily married? He makes it sound like it’s this easy thing to give up on
What an incredible debate this was. So cordial and inspiring. I don't go to church and recently began believing in God again, the reason being the one they mentioned in this video. As a woman who loves another woman, and having been raised in the church, I highly identify with this video. I find it to be soooo true that the church has lost its course and true meaning in what "love your neighbor" truly means. I've been able to broaden my family's scope and open their eyes that gay people are not bad, we are normal people just like them and we also deserve to be treated with love and respect. This debate was truly uplifting and a breathe of fresh air. I hope more people can be open to debating this way instead of putting each other down. Thank you
Justin you absolutely ate this conversation! Thank you so much for having this debate!
You're one of those rare persons who knows what an argument really is for!
Justin is endlessly gracious
So happy this discussion exists :) Many of us just want to be loved and not reviled.
From the First statment of Preston
So, Preston in ultimate instance believes If you are LGBTQ+ you need to be in celibacy, but why God would put a big desire for marriage in my heart, and the dream of a family If I'll have to be celibate, sounds like torture to me, and Thats not who my Father is, a manipulator, and to say I have to marry a man is even worse, is double torture.
Second, mens are married to Jesus, so are they gay and in ultimate instance in sin with Jesus? Cause following this logic mens are never going to be able to be save, cause in Romans when Paul talks about marriage the mistery is the marriage between Jesus and the Church, Thats what marriage is about in ultimate instance, an image of our relationship with Jesus and that doesn't implicate sex difference.
Justin, I find the spirit of kindness and grace that you bring to this discussion deeply inspiring. Thank you for all of your work and for the grace you have displayed here.
It's seems that if it comes down to being right or wrong regarding LGBTQ+ inclusivity in the church that it would be best to err on the side of loving people and providing a safe and loving environment instead of withholding the gospel from people because they happen to be born non-hetero normative.
I had a so deep experience with God about this, and God keeps reafirming this in my spirit and as the time passes I just get more sure I was made this way by Him
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
I can't help but notice some flawed arguments coming from Preston. He says he doesn't believe that marriage is essential for humans, and yet, when God created Adam He said "it's not good for you to be alone". It's no wonder Preston doesn't relate with the crushing feeling that you are going to be alone your whole life: he's a straight man. He's praised for doing the same things that would "send lgbtq+ people to hell", wich is: finding a suitable partner and living a happy married life. Ask him if he could live without phisically expressing his love for his wife. Celibacy can only be Holy when it comes from love, not from fear. Some people are called to celibacy. But imposing that to someone who only wants to be loved and cared for brings nothing but pain. How could pain bring us closer to a God of love? Yes, he is right: you CAN be fully human without sex and without marriage, there are lots of single people out there to prove so. But if you are FORCED to a life without marriage and sex, you would never be complete. Because here is something Preston seems to forget: marriage and sex are both expressions of love. Love is essential to everyone, and until the church acknowledges that, nothing is ever going to change.
Justin, I love your socks! Where did you get them? Seriously, this was a very helpful video for me to watch and listen to. More of these types of discussions, not arguments or debates are needed. Thank you Spark Church for sharing this.
To me now is so clear I can have a family, I pray for my partner, and I wait on God. And so clear through my relationship with God that the church is getting this so wrong, but God's changing this.
I appreciate your honesty in sharing this. To me, from reading the Bible, the opposite is clear. I know my own heart can often mislead me. But the church needs to do a better job offering genuine family and community to all people regardless of sexual orientation. That starts with me
Amen ♥️
"And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
- Revelation 21:5
Really awesome moderator and civil dialogue between both sides
i’m an atheist, but it’s very refreshing to hear the analogy about having to give up marriage. Finally someone gets that the question is not just about sex.
Am I understanding correctly that Preston's teachings are that marriage must be between 2 different genders and is therefore not available to gay couples and yet "sex" is a sin outside of marriage. So he is wanting to attract gay christians to his church who are essentially expected to live without physical expression of love? Why on earth would I want to be part of that church?
And I notice he IS married with children despite saying that marriage and sex are overrated and non essential.
I've read Preston Sprinkle's book 'People To Be Loved'. It's one of the most patronizing things I've ever read. It's filled with self-congratulation for treating gay people with 'respect', and teaching others how to do so. It sounds as if he's telling people how to speak to someone with a terminal illness. He doesn't respect us at all. He takes great pains to present differing interpretations on what passages from the Bible mean in regard to homosexuality, but ultimately it's unconvincing to anyone who doesn't already see homosexuality as wrong. The entire book is an exercise in proving to himself and to the christians who read it that gay people are less than they are, because the Bible says so, and that it's just the way it is. He calls us 'broken', and that we'll need to find a way to be satisfied never being able to have a partner or have sex. "I don't buy the unchristian notion that denying gay people a same-sex spouse is tantamount to denying them a fulfilled life.", he proclaims toward the end of the book. What that really translates into is "If you can't fix your same-sex attraction, well hell, just live with it and suffer." Are you kidding? He follows with this gem: "Whenever I give a talk on homosexuality to evangelical Christians...I try to humanize homosexuality so that we don't just banter about concepts, verses, and political debates about gay marriage. I make sure that we all understand the intricacies of homosexuality and the diversity of people's experiences." Wow. 'We all understand'? Are you sure you're not actually God? Sure sounds like you know everything about gay people. This 'kindness' of his isn't kind at all. It just talks in conciliatory phrases and fake empathy. I can't believe that Justin Lee was able to sit there and listen to his shit.
I was torn also while reading your book. I am grateful for you and your ministry. God bless.
38:44 to 44:20 - Really helpful, Justin. Thanks for the great illustration.
Guys, thanks so much for demonstrating such respect for each other's positions and one another as people! PLEASE do a part II where you do delve into the relevant Scriptures!!!
Preston Sprinkle certain does a lot of videos about homosexuality.
Thoroughly enjoyed and appreciate this discussion.
Lee and Sprinkle were both great, but I thought the moderator, Kevin Nooner was the best I have ever seen.
Matthew 19 you have to keep reading the text to bring up another point. That not all men can accept the traditional teaching of men and women.
I agree. I happen to believe that homosexuals are just one example of a eunuch. Specifically, born so from the womb. I read on a website once that in ancient times, such persons were referred to as natural eunuchs as opposed to man-made eunuchs.
God bless you Justin!
Justin, you are absolutely brilliant in the story you created.
Great work to both these guys , both wanting and seeking truth with God as it’s centre, mature and strong , seasoned with love and tolerance, even both men being big enough to agree to disagree , bravo 👍
unlike some of the unfortunate intolerant comments that have been posted .
Great dialogue by all involved!
Thank you for this justin
This was beautiful 🥺🥺🥰🥰🥰
The Sprinkle hides behind a judgmental view with big theological words. It is also very easy for him to say life is not about marriage and sexuality. He also misses the point of intimacy.
This debate wouldn't exist if Preston made deep relationships with gay married christian couples
The Church could never fill the roll of life partner. If it could the LGBTQA debate would have never happened. Further there is absolutely no prohibition in scripture for same sex love. In fact I would go so far as to say it was celebrated in the case of King David and Johnathan in Samuel.
Justin has the moral high ground