What happened to the priesthood after the apostles died? Ep. 166
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2022
- Shortly after the death of Christ, the Apostles, which he had ordained to govern his church, were hunted down and killed. In this episode, Dave explores what happened to their priesthood authority, and whether or not the local bishops were authorized to take their place.
Video transcript and additional notes: bit.ly/3PqGo5n
For info on priesthood keys, please see the resources in the description of the previous episode (about priesthood keys).
“Successors of the Apostles” by Jimmy Akins, Catholic.com: bit.ly/3tFcsdC
“The internal development of the early Christian church: via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/2vGNW0j
“Papacy” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/3Lk7UiX
“Primacy of the Pope” via Encycloepdia.com: bit.ly/35lqfg8
“Presbyter” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/3qEsjay
“Patriarch” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/3IEwnxG
“Metropolitan” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/3iCLA7H
“Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp: Three Bishops between the Apostles and Apostasy” by Richard Lloyd Anderson (Church’s website): bit.ly/3LfsbpD
“East-West Schism” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/2TkBOLI
“Apostolic succession” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/3tDQqrv
“Apostolic Succession” via New World Encyclopedia: bit.ly/3DdOGZx
“First Letter of Clement” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/3wIabQK
“First Council of Nicaea” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/38T5vZP
“First Council of Nicaea” via New World Encyclopedia: bit.ly/3NniaIT
“Donation of Constantine” via Encyclopedia Britannica: bit.ly/3iCOaup
“Pope Linus” via New World Encyclopedia: bit.ly/3JJmlwi
Notes
- “...the Christian churches were independent of each other; nor were they joined together by association, confederacy, or other bonds but those of charity. Each Christian assembly was a little state, governed by its own laws, which were either enacted, or, at least, approved by the society.” - Johann Mosheim, “Eccl. Hist.,” Cent. II, Part II, ch. 2:2. Cited in “The Great Apostasy,” by James E. Talmage, pg. 131.
- “In each city the senior member of the college (assembly) of presbyters, the bishop, naturally had some special authority; he corresponded with other churches and would attend the ordinations of new bishops as the representative of his own community and as a symbol of the catholicity-the universality and unity-of the church of Christ.” Source: bit.ly/2vGNW0j
- “… Stephen of Rome (256) is the first known pope to base claims to authority on Jesus’ commission to Peter (Matthew 16:18-19).” Source: bit.ly/2vGNW0j
- “The claims that the church of Rome was founded by Peter or that he served as its first bishop are in dispute and rest on evidence that is not earlier than the middle or late 2nd century.” Source: bit.ly/3usQ1r6
- “Since we have no evidence of when Peter arrived in Rome or the circumstances that led to his execution, later claims that he was bishop in a Roman community must rest on traditions about the apostle which emerged in the second century. For the first century of its existence, there was probably not a single bishop in the Roman church.” Source: “Peter: Apostle for the Whole Church” by Pheme Perkins, pg. 168.
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Thanks to the content creators for engaging with Catholicism on this point. I'm a Catholic canon lawyer (read: super nerd) and find the parallels between LDS and Catholicism to be super interesting. I would love to have a dialogue with Dave or anyone else on the Saints Unscripted channel about the great apostasy if anyone is willing. It can be privately too!
I would love to see this conversation! If this happens, please make it a video!
YES! PLEASE! That would be super interesting!
Read Hugh Nibley's “Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity” and you'll find more thorough detail there.
I have known of the parallels of Mormonism and Catholicism since 5.
So thankful for Saints Unscripted! I was just baptized this past Saturday. & only started knowing anything about the church a month ago. & Saints Unscripted has taught me so much
1 John 4:1 Dear friends do not believe who claims to speak by the spirit. You must test the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Satan can turn himself into an angel!! Be aware!!
@@hollayevladimiroff131 I’m very aware of that sir. I was raised with the Bible. My parents are devout southern Baptists. I was also. But God led me to the full truth ❤️
@@hollayevladimiroff131 & even if I’m wrong abt this (I know I’m not) then I’m going to heaven anyways because I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior
Hey Joey! We would love to hear more about your story if you want to send us a DM on either Facebook or Instagram! :)
@@joeyfowler7375 you should check out your local Catholic parish
Thanks so much for this. This is one of the points of doctrine I have always struggled with and you have just made perfect sense of it for me. I am constantly amazed at how clearly you explain things here on this channel. I think you should put all of this stuff in book form. I can pretty much guarantee it would be a bestseller and would help soooo many in the Church, especially new members, and those like me, who are inactive as a result of questions that no one seemed to be able to answer....until Saints Unscripted came along!
I appreciate what you do in these faith and beliefs segments more than you know! Thanks so much for all of your efforts and the long hours that you guys put in to create these videos!
I’m a cantankerous ENTP who likes to take shots at other LDS who don’t get things exactly right.
But I’ve got no complaints with this video.
This was well done.
Gets my stamp of approval.
How do you view Paul Gregersen's pro-Book of Abraham videos?
I don't agree with the lds church, but i do love & appreciate this video on the roman catholics. I just spoke with some last night & they tried telling me these things too. thank you!!
You may know this, but we prefer to be called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
@@amandadangerfieldpiano better than being called mormons.
@@amandadangerfieldpiano shut up mormon
Can y’all do a video for or with someone that is a teenager/young adult who is the only member in the family! I could use the encouragement haha
Same here Brother. I am the only member on our Family.
You explained this really well.
Thanks!
David is really good at explaining things clearly
Do LDS believe 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to the Great Apostasy? If so, is there more context we can pull from and what makes you think it is referring to the period before Joseph Smith and After Peter?
Jacob Samuelson. Yes. We are doing some interpretting and looking at it and other's scriptures and history. It says there will be a falling away. We interpret it to mean the whole world rejecting God so that no Apostles of Jesus Christ were left to lead the church. One reason were interpret it this way is The Restoration sheds light on what kind of falling away happened. We also see things from Jesus Christ's church in the New Testament which are missing in Roman Catholicism, etc.
“Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”
Acts 20:30-31 NIV
““Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”
Matthew 7:15 NIV
“I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.”
Romans 16:17-19 NIV
It’s a good thing St. Clement (the fourth pope) condemned these guys in the scriptures above:
“Such examples, therefore, brethren, it is right that we should follow; since it is written, Cleave to the holy, for those that cleave to them shall [themselves] be made holy. And again, in another place, [the Scripture] says, With a harmless man you shall prove yourself harmless, and with an elect man you shall be elect, and with a perverse man you shall show yourself perverse. Let us cleave, therefore, to the innocent and righteous, since these are the elect of God. Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Ephesians 4:4-6 Why do we divide and tear in pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body, and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that we are members one of another? Romans 12:5 Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, Woe to that man [by whom offenses come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones. Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continues.” St. Clement (the fourth pope), Ch. 66 in his epistle to the Corinthians
“Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.”
Philippians 4:3 NIV
(Clements name is in the book of life, he is not a false prophet)
Thanks for citing Jimmy Akin, Mr David!
Do you have a video on becoming saviors on mount zion?
Good stuff!
Love these videos
Love this video! I grew up catholic and had always trusted in their teaching of "apostolic succession" and the authority derived from the council of Nicea. But over years of studying the early church and catechism, I slowly realized the errors and disconnections. Our faith and spirituality should be in Jesus Christ and His Gospel not some magisterium.
I'm not sure where Catholicism teaches that our faith and spirituality isn't found in Jesus or his gospel since Catholics translated, copied, and canonized the new testament and literally worships Jesus as God, but I digress.
Jesus specifically delegated his authority on earth to men and those men ordained bishops priests and Deacons to pass on the teachings until Christ comes again. To ignore this is to ignore Christ and his followers' own words and actions taught to us by the same new testament you claim to put so much faith in.
To accept the Mormon position is to believe that all authority to teach, preach, and ordain was lost til the 1800s when it was gradually restored to a small group of Americans who very much see themselves as possessing the same God given authority that Catholics, Orthodox, and even the heads of Protestant churches claim to possess.
Trouble is that the case these non Catholic groups (save for the Orthodox) make for their authority is incredibly weak by comparison. And it shows in the form of thousands of Protestant denominations and hardly scraps of evidence to back up the matter of fact claims made by Mormonism.
@@jayt1077 There are many historical books, hosts of witnesses, and written supporters of the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you may dismiss these claims because they don't belong to your ecclesiastical tribe but they do exist, and if they are authentic then it is possible their claim to the priesthood is valid and restored the authority of apostles that the church on Earth needs.
@@boltrooktwo What on earth are you even talking about? And it is rich for you to put on that tone about "ecclesiastical tribe" when LDS are meant to believe that all churches are abominations and teachers of false doctrines and only they are THE church if God and in all things pleasing to God...
@@Bellg "What on earth are you even talking about?" Is usually the first question thrown around when the questioner wants to abandon reason and truth to say with feeling that they are offended anyone could possibly disagree with them. Our truth claims differ, to communicate we use reasoned points, not devolved emotive accusations of arrogance. To go down the route that someone else has to be arrogant to disagree with you and your cultural claims, is arrogant, thus it is virtue-signaling and hypocrisy, not truth and reason. Logically only one claim can be right when they contradict, but God has given human beings reason and intellect to approach such matters. There are parts of doctrine taken out of the New Testament teaching that were done so by Constantine and Justinian, emperors not apostles, thus changing the attributes of God to singular and dominating, like they were, instead of sacrificing and complimentary, like Christ and the Father are.
Anything that isn't the truth related to God would by any standard be abominable. The main abominations we can discover philosophically, I will explain them reasonably, they are particularly focused on the logical conclusions of the Trinity; as a singular being that loves that same being as an heir, though as a different person. The scriptures are from a culture where the word "son", "heir", and "love" are used within their Abrahamic cultural context as articulated with that meaning, (Please check some of my scriptural references thankfully written and distributed before the dominance of Rome: John 15: 9-12, Revelation 3: 21, John 1: 8-12, Matthew 5: 48, John 17: 20-23) not different obscuring meanings given by later theological philosophers. The other doctrines eradicated by the brutal emperor Justinian were the principles of the pre-existence and the eternal soul without beginning. They were once taught by Origen of Alexandria before being declared a heresy by edict written by the Emperor and handed down by the Pope. Actions like that have consequences. If God has engineered human beings entirely without the element of their own pre-existing spirit there is no separate being to be held accountable and subject to judgement. This leads to the reasonable conclusion that gives God the attributes of a capricious dominator, a puppet engineer not a Father, that has sole stake in the outcomes of eternity by singularly decided fine-tuned design.
@@boltrooktwo Their is just as much material (and more everyday) that refutes the claims of Mormon apologists and the statements of so called witnesses. I've read the book of Mormon, I've studied the movement's history, and I even give apologist groups like FAIR and these folks a listen....after years of this I find the Mormon position lacking to such an extreme degree that if Christian denominations ever met to settle their differences. Mormons would watch the whole thing on TV along with anyone who wasn't a Catholic or Orthodox bishop or Catholic Cardinal.
Respectfully, your understanding of the 1054 Schism between East and West is incorrect. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople isn't some eastern version of the pope, the conflict beyond the obvious disagreement over the filioque, was in a lot of ways over ecclesiology and authority models. A lot of ink has been spilled over this, and I don't expect you to give a comprehensive analysis in a brief video, but your summary so entirely missed the mark that I think it needs to be mentioned.
What I have yet to hear from an LDS person (or a Baptist for that matter) is compelling support for the Great Apostasy actually happening. Like you just did a good job explaining the belief but provided no evidence it actually happened.
I don't think it is good enough to say "Well it took place gradually, so I can't give you an exact date" That isn't good enough, if the thing supposedly happened, you need to provide some evidence. I can't think of any place where the pre-Nicaean fathers talk about any of the Mormon-specific rituals or doctrine.
It seems really convenient that you can cherry-pick any small part of the writings of an early church father and say 'That, that part is evidence that we are historical" but then discard the rest of it. I'm not expecting a 100% match. Even the Orthodox Church only looks for a broad consensus.( www.oca.org/reflections/fr.-lawrence-farley/the-consensus-of-the-fathers )
But you don't even see a single church father, let alone several, who broadly agree with the specific Mormon truth claims. If you have such an example, I would be really interested in seeing it.
Ignatius of Antioch, who you quoted doesn't seem very Mormon when you read him. The quotes you have from him are basically him saying he's not an apostle. Ok, so what, he certainly was not? That one line is easily within the claims of a couple apostolic churches, you have to shoehorn it to make it fit with LDS doctrine.
A Bishop's authority is within their own episcopacy and anything outside that is dealt with by council or synod. That's how they, the Apostolic Churches operate to this day.
If you are Catholic, you have the added element of the Papacy, but that wouldn't apply to Clement at all in the case since....he isn't the Pope.
"I am not an Apostle" isn't the same as " there should be a quorum of 12 apostles"
A little of research will show that the idea of a "Great Apostasy" is pretty common in some parts of the protestant world. It was kind of taken for granted at Joe Smiths time in some protestant circles.
I'm not sure if Joseph Smith had any concept of Orthodoxy, I'm willing to guess he did not, as I have never seen him make any comments on it. In his world view, there were Catholics and Protestants and that was about it. Joseph Smith grew up in a very Anti-Catholic part of the world at the time and was certainly exposed to the myths that "Constatine Founded the Catholic Church in the 4th centry" or that it was the "Whore of Babylon"
These are mostly the opinions of unsophisticated people who have an incredibly limited understanding of church history and an Ax to grind with the Catholic Church. He was already exposed to the type of people who decided the Catholic Church was wrong and they needed to "Restore" the church to what they imagined it was.
I think you will find a grand total of 0 Church fathers who are Mormon sounding....you will have to quote mine them for specific lines that you agree with, but admit over all they are from a LDS perspective in Deep Apostasy within a Generation.
The biggest issue is why would Christ set up a Church that would fail immediately after the deaths of his Apostles?
The last question is so easy to answer...
Tertullian argued that God had a material body, just as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes...
Steve. I've watched hours of videos quoting citing thing from the early church and other christians which match or come close to our beliefs.
Your demand for exact dates from people doing bad and mimicking good is unreasonable. The many of the apostates back then claimed to be the successors, so no they didn't keep records of when they apostacized. Papers rot. The decay of things is another reason your demand is unreasonable.
Of course the many or most or all church fathers taught apostacized christianity. They were living during the beginning of the Great Apostacy. Some church fathers may have even been the apostates who didn't want Jesus's Apostles to be replaced by new true apostles.
Great info, thanks!
The Council of Nicaea was approved by the bishop of Rome and the whole Church. Constantine was only there ceremonially. He proposed a half-way measure between Arian and Nicene Christianity, which was rejected by all involved parties.
I hope that there could be an episode on the Great Apostasy about evidence of it in and out of scriptures. Historical or non scriptural evidence like dates and stuff or why we can’t find dates names and stuff
Okay, one of the things that doesn't work for your argument is pretty simple.
The bishops ordained by the apostles did not think of themselves as apostles, but they went on to ordain bishops and priests showing that the "keys of the priesthood", the ability to ordain priests, was believed to reside in the bishops from their very first generation. Your statement that the priesthood didn't immediately die out is why the position that it *ever* dies out makes no sense. What you are basically saying is that only apostles could ordain bishops and priests, but those they ordained were so badly taught about their powers that they immediately began to continue on a fake priesthood.
So what distinguishes the apostles from the bishops if the office of apostle did not continue on after their death? Well, it's pretty obvious when you think about it. The apostles saw Christ, the Bishops did not. Jesus tasked the apostles with founding the Church, the apostles tasked the bishops with running it. The apostles are the way in which the complete revelation found in the life of Jesus was sent out to the world, and the bishops are the ones tasked with carrying their word to the ends of the earth. The apostles speak what Jesus told them, and the bishops repeat what the apostles have said and apply it to our own era. The apostles had the special power of writing the new testament because they were tasked with revealing Jesus to the world, the complete revelation of God, while the bishops do not write scripture for they are simply tasked with repeating what the apostles had said.
Without an authorized high priest to preside over the priesthood, the authority cannot continue with the Church. The early Church Bishops did not have keys given to them to officiate for the entire Church or its localities without a High Priest to authorize that action. If all the apostles die, right now, the keys would fall to the First Quorum of the Seventy, as I understand it. The Early Church did not function as the modern Church does in this respect because it did not last long enough to reach the need for there to be three bodies of leadership that all hold the keys so that if one body is gone, the First Presidency, the next body with the keys, Quorum of the Twelve, collectively hold the keys until one person is entrusted with presidency and accepted at solemn assembly by the Church. If the first two quorums die, the third quorum from the Seventy, most likely the president or chief hight priest of the seven presidents of the Seventy holds that authority, or key of authority to form another quorum of twelve men to be apostles as revealed to the seven presidents of the Seventy. The Early Church did not have this clause because it did not have, as I mentioned, time due to the persecutions. God revealed that the Church would never lose authority or that it would continue until and beyond the coming of Christ. Bishops do not have keys to ordain other bishops. When the first bishops died, the High Priesthood ceased with them if they had it. The lesser priesthood could have continued since bishops or other priest could ordain priests, teachers, and deacons. That is a stretch to consider because the High Priest holds all the keys. Once the High Priest office is vacant and no one is around to fill it due to lack of authority, all function of the priesthood become no longer valid in heaven. A church may continue to function on Earth, but the sealing power is what makes every baptism count in heaven. There must be a functioning high priest for that key to soemnize ordinances on Earth and in heaven. That is my opinion, but I feel certain that it is correct.
@@Rod_Johnson-Moroni-Saw-Me Firstly, only Jesus has the office of "High Priest" for he gave on sacrifice to atone for the sins of all. (Hebrews 5:9-10) the Pope is not the high priest for he has no power to perform the sacrifice which atones for sins; only Jesus does that. The president is not the high priest cause he cannot atone for sins; only Jesus does that.
Secondly, you still have to address my point that the bishops the apostles appointed appointed other bishops once the apostles died. Now how does that work? If the bishops were given the priesthood by the apostles and gave it to other men so that they could become their equals, the ability to ordain people into the priesthood has nothing to do with the apostles.
Now, as for the need for a president. Linus has very few evidences of his reign, but that is because he died shortly after he became Pope, though he did command women to veil in all churches, a practice that has only recently been discontinued. His direct successor did even less as he died quicker. Clement, the fourth Pope, third after Peter, does have many more writings cause he was actually able to reign for a significant period of time. All of these, even though they might've been considered leaders in the Church, primarily concerned themselves with the duties of their own jurisdiction just as Peter did. When Peter was in Jerusalem, he concerned himself with Jerusalem above all else. When he was in Antioch, he concerned himself in Antioch, and when in Rome he concerned himself with Rome. The leadership and primacy of Peter had nothing to do with him directing the affairs of the whole Church at all times, for he didn't need to, but he did give broad instructions to the whole Church. We see this in acts when he declares Paul the apostle to the gentiles and the others the apostles to the Jews. This leadership role found in Peter can continue on in the Popes without them concerning themselves with too many global affairs. Infact, the main reason the Pope's became problematic was not due to their authority claims, but due to the fact that they concerned themselves so much with international affairs that they neglected their own city of Rome, letting it fall into disrepair hoping potential rebels would leave, and letting it fall into anarchy when the people became lawless. The Pope, like Peter, needs to put his own jurisdiction in order before he concerns himself with the affairs of the world, just like Peter did.
@@realmless4193 matthew 16:14-19
@@hyrumdelrosario6766 Yes, it seems we are in agreement about this verse. The question is, did this role of president continue after Peter?
@@realmless4193 after peter died the priesthood keys were gone and there was no ordained high priest
““For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “ ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, “ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’ Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.”
Acts 1:20-26 NIV
(Literally apostolic succession)
“So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them”
Acts 6:2-3 NIV
(Appointing more people because you can’t have just 12&the 72)
“Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.”
Philippians 4:3 NIV
(St. Clement’s name is in the book of life, therefore he is not a false prophet)
“Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.” - St. Clement, Ch. 44 in his epistle to the Corinthians.
(The apostasy that wasn’t)
Come home to the true catholic faith 🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦
EXTRA: “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
Matthew 16:18 NIV
(Was Jesus wrong? The gates of hades completely overwhelmed his church?)
even if the authority was lost, why did god WAIT over 1800 yrs to restore it.? And how does anyone know no apostle passed thje authority on to someone
He waited for the founding of America and the establishment of Religious Freedom that would begin in America and then spread around the world. So the church would be able to thrive . Also God foresaw the inventions of modern technology that would allow the gospel to spread all over the world and be able to allow the Apostles to teach and correct false doctrine a lot faster than the original apostles who had to rely only on writing letters or making personal visits.
We can now that the authority was not passed on both by Faith and by studying history and seeing how no one claimed authority over the whole church until centuries after the Apostles died and the contestant debating of who was in charge and what the doctrine of Christ was. It becomes quite clear that authority and that general revelation of God to direct the whole church was absent and these men were acting according to what they thought was right. A good place to start is watching this channel’s history of Christianity series.
Alright love the video. Just wish we wouldn’t meme-afy Christ on the cross with a weird blurry filter for the thumbnail??
Sacraments (or mysteries) are holy actions of the Church by which spiritual life is imparted to those receiving them. Ordination, which means “setting in place” or “selection by the outstretched hand,” is one of several Orthodox sacraments. It is extended specifically to bishops, presbyters (priests), and deacons, and generally to all through Holy Baptism.
1. Bishops. Christ in His ministry ordained or “set in place” the Twelve, assuring them, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain” (Jn 15:16).
Both the New Testament and the church fathers recognize the Twelve as the first bishops or overseers in the Church. When Judas had fallen away and the disciples were considering his successor, Peter said, “Let another take his office” (Gr. episkopen, lit., “bishopric”; Acts 1:20). This bishopric was given to Matthias (Acts 1:25).
The apostles-these first bishops-in turn ordained presbyters and deacons.
2. Deacons. The account of the first ordination of deacons (Acts 6:1-6) is quite detailed. “Seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom,” the apostles said, “whom we may appoint [Gr. kathistemi, “to set down or ordain”] over this business” (Acts 6:3). The manner of this appointment is clear: “they laid hands on them” (Acts 6:6). The ordination of deacons in the Orthodox Church takes place in this same manner today, through the laying on of hands by the bishop.
3. Presbyters. The first account of the ordination of elders or presbyters is in Acts 14:23. The apostles Paul and Barnabas “appointed [lit., “elected by stretching forth the hand”] elders in every church, and prayed with fasting,” then “commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.” Similarly, Paul reminds his apostolic apprentice, Titus, “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint [set in place, ordain] elders in every city as I commanded you” (Tts 1:5).
The Titus passage brings to mind the first prayer the bishop prays over one being ordained to the Orthodox priesthood: “The grace divine, which always heals that which is weak and completes that which is lacking, elevates through the laying on of my hands this most devout deacon to be priest.”
The bishop continues to ask God to “fill with the gift of the Holy Spirit this man . . . that he may be worthy to stand in innocence before Your holy altar, to proclaim the Gospel of Your Kingdom, to minister the word of Your truth, to offer You spiritual gifts and sacrifices, to renew Your people through the laver of regeneration.”
A dramatic moment in the service of ordination comes when the candidate is led around the altar three times, kissing or venerating the four corners of the altar each time. This symbolizes his marriage to Christ, his death with Christ, and his willingness to serve the Church sacrificially after the example of his Master.
Ordination is seen as an eternal appointment, “for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). It is in this spirit that during each Divine Liturgy the priest prays for his bishop that “the Lord God remember him in His Kingdom always, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.”
Through the sacrament of ordination in His Church, Christ entrusts to the shepherd the very salvation of His people’s souls.
The twelve apostles are just that. 12 apostles so not bishops. Anything deviating at all from that is just plain apostasy.
I appreciate the Monty Python intermission music on the pause here to read portion
“Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father” (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
“You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force” (ibid., 3:1).
(Yes, Ignatius of Antioch definitely didn’t see the bishop of Rome being in “the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father”)
This topic has always had me at a loss.
How could the priesthood be lost when you had the three nephites and one of the apostles was translated ( I don't recall which apostle ,)
Jared, Cassi Kent. Good question. I'm at peace with that. God must have disconnected them from the world in a way.
Remember God doesn’t force people. Apostasy is a synonym for sin, so when that happens and people are no longer worthy of revelation because they rejected and killed the prophets or because they don’t ask for it, then they don’t receive it. John did restore the Melchizedek priesthood when he appeared with Peter and James when the time was right, when the people were ready. 3 Nephites were on another continent. Their entire civilization fell to apostasy. Same story in the new world as the old. They rejected servants of God, killed the prophets and lived wickedly and chose to not receive what God wanted to give them. (To be fair, God does reveal things to the honest in heart, but any longstanding church was made impossible by the lack of a majority of people in the church living the true doctrine of Christ)
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The universal church has been unbroken since the time of Christ. And we have all of the fathers original writings. So we can know we still follow the message of Christ.
So the apostles should have passed along their office but forgot to?
The primacy of the bishop of Rome dates back to Jesus giving Peter the keys of the kingdom.
Authority vs Keys.
Seems quite silly that christ would come to earth, establish his church tell us it will never end and then let it end in 10 years. Lol. Who are you to say Peter didn’t have the right to name his successor? He was the chief apostle of Christ. For a fact we know this.
The Apocrypha was in the original Bible still held by the Ethiopian Christians which was the second Christian nation as Armenia was the first. Who cares what peoples opinions of the Apocrypha are… point is it was included in the first complete compiled bible and later taken away from the original final word of God 🫠
I still have one big question. Why?
Why did Jesus not establish His church properly. He said "it is finished". Jesus never commanded the apostles to keep on replacing the 12 again and again. It was just once because of Judas' death.
Did Jesus fail or did the devil prevail? That's the question I would propose to my LDS friends.
Jesus didn't fail. He said "Hells Gates will not prevail against His church" well occurring to LDS beleif hello gates did prevail. No matter how much you sugar coat the great apostasy, it's mere existence negates what Christ said and promise. Our Lord and creator did not lie and He knew exactly what He was doing. Food for thought.
Who told you that Christ did not establish His church properly?
Jesus never commanded to keep on replacing the original 12 apostles when they die??? Where does it says in the bible? How about Paul, he was not from the original 12 apostle called by Christ, but why he was an apostle, if Christ Himself does not want replacement??? And why does He commanded to replace Judas if He doesnt want a replacement in the first place? How about James(the brother of Jesus) who also became an apostle Galatians 1:19?
And also Barnabas, who became an apostle as well, 1 Cor. 9:5-6; see also Acts 14:14)????? These three were not frm the original 12 apostles.
Who told you that the chuch of which Jesus Christ organized fails? It did not, it is actually growing and expanding across the globe, it was restored in 1830.
And foods for thought
1. Apostasy doesnt mean the devil prevails because there was a restoration
2. Apostasy that we are talking here doesnt refer to the church so you cannot say that Christ church failed. Apostasy happens to leaders and members and individuals who abandon their faith and persecuted and killed apostles resulting from absence of leadership and authority in the church.
3. Universal Apostasy was predicted by apostles and prophets in the bible and its not sugarcoated.
Apostasy ("uh-POS-tuh-see"): n. Origin: from late latin "aposta", from Greek "apostasis" meaning "revolt" or "abandon". To turn away from. D. Abandonment of one's faith, religious belief, principles, or cause in favor of another that is more suitable or convenient.
Gospel to be temporarily removed from the earth, mankind in spiritual darkness (“dark ages”) - Amos 8:11-12
Church to be restored in last days, never again to be taken from the earth or left to other men - Daniel 2:44
John prepares everyone for the apostasy that is about to take place, even stating that it had already begun - 1 John 2:18
Apostasy from the Gospel had already begun during the ministry of the first apostles - 2 Timothy 1:15
Paul marvels at how people quickly fall away from Christ’s true Gospel only to adopt someone else’s version of it, and condemns those who pervert the gospel - Galations 1:6-9
Paul condemns anyone who preaches a different Gospel than that which the Apostles had taught - Galatians 1:9
Paul states that he knows for certain that evil men, from both inside and outside of the church, will corrupt the Gospel after his departure - Acts 20:29-30
The truth of the gospel will not be restored to the earth until there comes a falling away or abandonment (adostasy) of that original truth first - 2 Thes. 2:3, Amos 8:11-12
Jude is forced to explain that the original Gospel, as it was delivered to the saints, has become corrupted by evil men - Jude 1:3-4
Paul writes of how Asia had abandoned the faith already - Acts 19:26
Apostasy and wickedness surround Christ's church in the last days while Christ's church is perfected - All of Isaiah 33
All religious fables and false doctrines must be rebuked so that the one true faith may prevail - Titus 2:15, Ephesians 4:4-6
Beware of false doctrines of men who twist doctrine after their own worldly beliefs and traditions - Colossians 2:8
Paul’s writings will confuse the unlearned, causing them to stumble to their destruction - 2nd Peter 3:14-16
Those of Christ's true church will endure much persecution - 2 Timothy 3:12
People deny the truth and then invent their own doctrines and seek after religious "fables" - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
The blind lead the blind into the ditch - Matthew 15:12-14
Christ states that not only will the apostles be killed, but some of the apostles themselves will start teaching false doctrines and mislead many - Acts 20:29-30
People acting in the name of Christ, but with no authority to do so, will be abandoned by the Lord - Matthew 7:21-23
Prediction of apostasy in the latter days, including forbidding to marry (nuns, priests, etc) - 1 Timothy 4:1-3
Prediction of latter-day apostasy describes the people of today - 2 Timothy 3:1-8 & 4:3-4
The wicked will persecute and even kill, thinking they are doing God service - John 16:1-4
False doctrines destroy Christ's people, and have corrupted the world - Jer. 12:10-11
The Lord issues a grave warning to religious leaders who scatter/persecute his flock - Jer 23:1-4
The world will claim to be "Christians", but in word only and not deed - Titus 1:16
False prophets and apostles will abound, even Satan himself disguised as an angel of light - 2 Cor. 11:13-14
Christ states that he will remove the gospel from the earth because of apostasy (requiring restoration) - Amos 8:11-12
Worldly people despise Christ's true plan of salvation and dangerously invent their own - 1 Cor. 1:19-29
Believers of false doctrine will always continue to learn yet never have an understanding of the truth - 2 Timothy 3:7
All of Christ's prophets and apostles were killed in the "Name of God" (JS) - John 16:2
False churches abuse people and twist the scriptures into confusing, manipulative doctrines - Isaiah 33:19
People that once believed false and incomplete doctrines will eventually learn the full truth - Isaiah 29:24
People claim to be close to God by their words, yet act otherwise - Isaiah 29:13
Scoffers, despite knowing the truth, willfully claim that religion is of the past, and demand proof and signs because they have mistaken the Lord's longsuffering and patience for complacency - 2 Peter 3:2-5
Fraudulent Trinitarian doctrine intentionally inserted into Bible (1 John 5:7-8). These two verses are missing from original Greek and Hebrew texts, nor are they found in the original 1611 printing of King James Bible. Many newer Bibles are now being printed without them. Think about the impact this single, intentional, and very critical corruption of doctrine has had on the entire Christian world for centuries.
predicted by apostles and prophets
The great Apostacy should not be looked at as "the apostles or Jesus failed and the restoration was a backup plan.". There was always meant to be a restoration of all things.
Apostacy scriptures
Isa 60:2
Amos 8:11
Matt 8:11-12
Matt 24:9-12
Acts 20:29-30
2 Thes 2:1-3
2 Tim 4:3
Heb 13:20
Rev 13:7
Isa 29:13
Restoration scriptures
Isa 2:2,
Micah 4:1-2
Isa 29:14
John 16:12
Mark 4:11
Dan 2:44-45
Mal 4:5-6
Matt 11:14
Matt 14:10
Matt 17:11
Acts 3:21
Rev 14:6
The gates didn’t prevail. The lds church is the same thing as the church of Peter. So it’s the same church. Therefore, the gates didn’t prevail.
I accept the church fell into apostasy after the age of the apostles. I even have my doubts about the Christian canon as the Bible was given to us by the apostate Catholic Church.
So your whole theology is dependent on insisting on the church failing for 1800 years? That Christ, who made the 12 apostles, the foundation of the church, failed, until 1 man 1800 years later? God forbid. God doesn't leave His people abandoned for 1800 years. Irenaeus did NOT teach mormonism at all. Read his writings otherwise don't quote him.
Couldn’t Peter have altered the manner in which the church was governed, like Brigham Young did?
No, the apostasy and restoration was prophesied of in both the New and Old Testaments so it was already foreordained so
@@bigboybrock1205 Was the prophecy so specific as to rule out a later date, such as the 1840s?
@@mikefoxtrot1314 as far as I am aware, most prophecies don’t have dates attached to them
@@bigboybrock1205 How did you determine the prophecies to be foretelling an apostasy in the very beginning of the Christian Era?
@@mikefoxtrot1314 because of the widespread apostasy that was already happening as recorded by the apostles before their deaths. Most of the scriptures after John were correcting the already falling away churches. Paul speaks a lot of things concerning this everywhere. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it says “The authority of God will be taken from the earth in 20 years” if that is what you are looking for. The falling away, mentioned by Paul, happened after the death of the apostles because many of the doctrines were lost and added upon
The priesthood was never lost. The Catholic Church can be traced back to the apostles.
The Catholic Church didn’t become the “Catholic church” until 300 years after Christ died
@@carterdalby9011 the Catholic Church of as established when Jesus gave the keys to Peter.
@@carterdalby9011 Constantine and many post-nicene emperors favored Arian Christianity.
Why do we believe Peter was the president of the church after Christ's death?
Matthew 16:18-19. Christ gives priesthood keys of the kingdom (church) to Peter. :)
Christ told Peter that "upon this rock will I build my church," speaking directly to Peter. He also told Peter to feed his sheep, repeatedly and in the Acts of the Apostles, Peter was clearly the leader and most senior apostle of in the church.
Probably more reasons that this, but here's a few off the top of my head: Jesus promised him in Matthew 16:19 "the keys of the kingdom of heaven". In the same conversation Jesus also said, "and upon this rock I will build my church" which is largely interpreted (by general Christianity anyway) to mean Peter is the rock upon which the church is built.
Also, throughout the book of Acts, Peter takes the lead on several key events including the Day of Pentecost and selection of a new apostle, the revelation to bring the gospel to the Gentiles, and seems to have taken the mantle in several noteworthy miracles. He was so well known throughout the region that people would lie their beds in the streets just hoping that the shadow of Peter would pass over them. He seems to be a very prominent figure following the death of Christ, even if he does seem to take a back seat to Paul in terms of content. It's a shame we don't have more writings from him.
Jesus went to Peter and only Peter and said in John 21, do you love me three times. Afterwards he said Feed my Sheep. This was a direction that signified the Lord's direct expectation to Peter's calling in Matthew 16. It was a reminder to us and Peter that Peter wasnt just some Apostle. He was given special responsibilities to feed Christs flock.
Because of Roman Catholic misinterpretation of scripture. Nowhere in history before the great schism between the West and East did it say that Peter was the sole successor. Christ gave authority to all the Apostles not just Peter. The keys have a very different interpretation than what those in the West believe.
Why is priesthood even necessary? Why would God have a priesthood?
Priesthood would be how God can officiate his work on Earth. If you think of God as The Ultimate Judge. Is the judge the one who makes an arrest? He can issue a warrant, but who enforces that warrant? Just anybody. No a judge's warrants are officiated to officers of the Law. The officers are giving authority to act under the jurisdiction of the Judge. Priesthood is the badge that qualify one to act out God's warrant and law. No one can act outside of Gods warrant or jurisdiction.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 Why would God need such officers? Can't he do all this stuff, himself? Doesn't God respect agency? Why would he "enforce" anything? He appears to rarely intervene, even with very egregious sins.
Why does it matter for our salvation that an authorized person act for God? Anyone can claim to be authorized, so it doesn't seem to help much.
@@towardcivicliteracy To properly answer this question, you would need to understand why God even created all of life in the first place and what He is doing right now as we speak. We learn from Moses that The work and Glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man. Well, like you said, couldn't God just make us immortal and give us Eternal Life for free without any need of 'living on Earth'? We are told if God did do this, that he would have to exchange Eternal life and immortality for Free Agency which would essentially make us robots that would never have sentient emotions associated with Good or Evil as one cannot exist without the other.
Because God ultimately choose Free Agency as the recipe for existence, the next step would be Immortality and Eternal Life which was only possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Well, then the argument would be if Jesus Christ's atonement is already done doesn't that mean we are all given immortality and eternal life so didn't God get what he wanted already, what is the point of everyone just hanging around on Earth for? Well, while we don't know exactly what God is waiting for before Christ brings forth the Second Coming, we do know that Christ brought forth the immortality of man, but the eternal life part was conditional to whether people would believe in Christ and Follow Him.
Each person that has lived is living and will live are all individual souls and Children of God, everyone needs a chance to experience life to exercise their free agency, however long or short that means.
In Matthew we read: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. What is the Kingdom of God? In short it is a Church that regards Christ as the Lord and Savior and teaches His Gospel in the fullness. LDS believe that the Kingdom of God is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints and that those who believe in Christ and are baptized by proper authority are becoming part of the Kingdom.
Missionary work, temple work, and Humanitarian and Church services are all helping build the Kingdom of God. Now back to your question, why doesn't God just build this Kingdom Himself, why does he need officers or bricklayers to do the work for him. Well, because for the same reason he didn't just make us into robots, his work is to build us up and teach us and give us wisdom to know for ourselves how a Kingdom should be cared for, so one day when we receive our 'mansions' we can become just as the Father and follow in the Family Business. This Life isn't just a probationary period, it is also a preparatory period, for us to become Eternal Families of our own. Priesthood is the linking force for all of this to happen. 'Malachi 3.
the bible says upon this rock i will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail so there was no great apostosy
Geoffrey Palmer. The rock was how Peter knew. Everybody who ever received and followed revelations from God never suffered in hell. The gates never prevailed and the world lost JEsus Christ's church when it rejected Him and His Apostles.
@@Hamann9631 huh?
The gates of hell will not prevail. The restoration has occured
@@TheRastacabbage no it did not that is a lie joseph smith created so he could start his own church
@@geoffreypalmer2661 no the apostasy & restoration are both told in the bible
Few people today know that the Orthodox Church is nothing less than that Church which has preserved untainted the genuine teachings of Jesus Christ, the very teachings delivered to every subsequent generation of believers. These teachings came down the centuries. from the Holy Apostles, explicated and carefully interpreted by their legitimate successors (their disciples and the holy Fathers), traditioned and conserved unaltered by our Eastern Church which is alone able to prove her right to be called “the Orthodox Church.”. The Great Apostasy refers to a future falling-away, during the reign of the Antichrist at the end of times not the Early Church which Christ said that the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church.
The divine Founder of the Church, our Lord Jesus Christ, said clearly, “I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her” (St. Matt. 16: 18). To the Church, He sent the Holy Spirit. The Spirit descended upon the Apostles, the Spirit of Truth (St. John 15: 16f) Who “manifests all things” to Her and guides Her (St. John 16: 13), protecting Her from error. Indeed, it was to declare this Truth to men that the Lord came into the cosmos, according to His own words (St. John 18: 31). And Saint Paul confirms this fact in his letter to his pupil, the bishop Timothy, saying that “the Church of the living God is the ground and pillar of the Truth” (I Tim 3: 15).
Because She is “the ground and pillar of the Truth,” “the gates of Hell cannot prevail against Her.” It follows, then, that the true Christian Church-palpably unique since Christ established but one Church-has always existed on earth and will exist to the end of time. She has received the promise of Christ, “I will be with you even unto the end of the age.” Can there be the slightest doubt that the Lord refers here to the Church? Any honest and sane judgment, any act of good conscience, anyone familiar with the history of the Christian Church, the pure and unaltered moral and theological teachings of the Christian religion, must confess that there was but one true Church founded by our Lord, Jesus Christ, and that She has preserved His Truth holy and unchanged.
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@@mrjustadude1 ☦️
3:40 - Oh now historical evidence matters? When it comes to the BoM, actual history and evidence are pretty much dismissed as irrelevant.
The Priesthood was never given to the Mormon church, Jesus is our priest and our mediator. Jesus holds the keys, not the Mormon church, there was no apostasy, and the church grew in all the centuries past. Hebrews 8:6 But now Jesus, our High Priest has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old Priesthood for He is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises. No need for a Priesthood on earth, we have Jesus our mediator and redeemer.
Hollaye Vladimiroff. Except God says otherwise. You must not read The New Testament. The New Testament tells us of an organization Jesus set up.
There is, was no such thing as a mormon church. Ever.
THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL JESUS SAID.. if your church needed to be restored you have a FALSE CHURCH
In Acts Chapter 3 In a time of restitution of all things, Jesus will restore back his gospel, for all things must be gathered together in Christ.. John The Revelator saw the everlasting gospel being restored back again to the earth in the last days before the Second Coming.
Who told you that restoration of the church makes it false?????
Warning, I aint as nice as Dave in this video so just throwing that out there. I'm not just a critical but a very strong, defiant opposer to my old catholic faith. With how much vicious, obnoxious animosity my family had, still has, when folks like me willingly leave their precious roman-catholic church, it's quite clear there very much was an apostasy. On top of that, the catholic church absolutely did not have my permission, as with millions of others, to baptize me when I was a baby. Manmade doctrine that even babies have sin is a huge sign of the apostasy. With manipulating doctrine like that, the church wouldn't need permission to baptize anyone and that's utterly ridiculous. That's also cowardly taking advantage of people and not letting us think, choose for our damn selves to believe in God. On top of that, the catholic church ruthlessly put down individuals and groups of people that spoke out and taught against things in catholicism they felt were way off. No real church of Christ would be so barbaric. Popes seriously acted far more like emperors of Rome waving way too much political sovereignty over people of even far away lands. Budding in way too much into governments. Anyways, despite what we all disagree on, if either side really does believe in Christ, we're still supposed to get along and have as much respect as possible. I was happy to see the catholic pope and Latter-day Saint prophet embrace warmly like brothers. I criticize, but I leave the condemning to God. I hope everyone Lds or not loves their neighbors and enemies just like Jesus Christ taught.
This is all false. There was no apostasy. The Orthodox Church is the original Christian church and it still exists today. The priesthood was never lost and still exists today in the Orthodox Church
You didn't read the scriptures properly. Jesus foretold of the apostasy.
These guys are western cult
When the orthodontist church get the priesthood sir when all the apostle death the priesthood gone as well That mean priesthood lost no proper authority on earth to lead run a proper churches
No churches on earth had the proper authority to run and guide the true church the churches was Jesus Christ establish when he was on earth