Edit: hey all, a few things to note: I wanna apologize for the EXTREMELY annoying squeaking noise in the background, my chair was feeling nefarious and I didn't notice at the time. This took me like 2 and a half hours to record and I couldn't fix it in post, so just uh, I dunno, listen on bad speakers or lower the volume, I'll fix it by the next video (probably). I also wanna add that Corrupted Ancients are more noticeable than regular Healers, as ranged units stick near them, so they don't just wander out of the radius. Even so, its still like 2 enemies at any given time and they're still flawed. I also forgot to mention how Arbitration Drones nullify CC, and I think it would be totally fair to allow enemies under their effect to be CCable. Last thing is about Nullifiers, where a lot of people mentioned that their shield regenerating causes a lot of problems, so they could be changed to lose their bubble permanently when it breaks to avoid this. To keep the shield drone relevant, maybe it could do like a radial electric proc or somesuch when destroyed, but that's just an idea. A lot of people also disagree with my idea of changing defense, and while I still stand by it, I think that there could be a compromise: killing Eximus reducing the timer by 5 seconds. Considering that they have Overguard CC won't stop them from getting close enough to be killed, so I think that could be a solid way to strike a balance. Also, I want to note that Inaros is a very CC focused character even post rework. I didn't count him as a lot of those elements are carried over from his older kit, but in the name of fairness I think it is noteworthy that they did keep this part of Inaros' identity intact (which funnily enough makes the hesitancy to rework Loki even more confusing). Lastly, to all of the people who are simply saying I have a skill issue or somesuch, please actually listen to my argument on this. This game is easy as shit, I am well aware of that fact, I am not proposing changes with the goal of making the game easier. I find it sad that a once rich playstyle has been abandoned and the frames that use it consequently crippled, and I want to allow people to play the game in ways other than damage spam. If you like spamming damage, that's fine, but it doesn't mean the problem does not exist.
That's not Unique to Ancient Healers.... I've Seen Enemies glue to Nullifiers and Arbitration Drones too... The Latter will Intentionally Position itself Behind the Same Enemies it's Protecting because Apparently Full Invincibility wasn't Annoying Enough Already. 😐
Personally I _still_ don't think Loki needs a "rework." Simply making Decoy scale made it incredibly useful for a whole lot of content, as it is one of THE strongest threat generators in the entire game, and there is footage out there showing it'll literally prevent Defence targets from being attacked. In a similar vein, making Switch Teleport more usable in general is still appreciated. The only part of his kit that is outright lacking for me, currently, is Radial Disarm, which could REALLY use a damage vuln component to make it relevant outside of its CC functionality. From there, the only gripe is with Invisibility not being meaningfully distinct from Ash's invis, and his passive not really seeing a whole lot of usage since people have almost zero reason to wall latch all that much, but its usage isn't completely zero; if they made Switch Teleporting from a wall latch dangle the affected target from a choking wire for Loki's modded wall latch duration with threat generation and friendly fire, we could see some funny stuff going on with Damage Decoy.
Nullifiers just need to be changed to how they used to function: disable powers when you enter inside but they can't outright 'pop' abilities by touching them with their bubble. A nullifier shouldn't instantly pop an atlas wall, limbos cataclysm, or frosts snow globe as examples. Instead, all enemies inside the bubble will be immune to abilities as it should be, allowing a nullifier and any enemies inside to walk inside cataclysm unfazed until their bubble is popped, in which they would be frozen by stasis. If they were an eximus they would also need to have their overugard removed. Easy fix and avoids lore breaking things like nullifiers destroying pockets of alternate realities and somehow nullifying infestation.
Yeah, an example would be with a Cataclysm, a Nullifier shouldn't destroy the bubble, rather their bubble should essentially be like a second, inverse bubble, putting everything within that bubble into real-space rather than the Rift.
I simply need to mention this lovely interaction. If you pop a nully bubble, and drag him into a vauban vortex, he'll be able to recast his bubble while actively being stuck in the vortex, thereby cancelling the ability and *freeing everyone affected, not just himself*
Same applies to limbo and his cata. You wanna bust most eximus and nulls down with cc and damage as limbo? Invest in rift torrent and subsume a wisp for breach and bust their heads closing to 5 mill with molt aug stacked and arcane energizer
I really love shield eximus in SP. I really enjoy not being able to shoot his head off because of its dumb shield and making every enemy nearby tankier. Absolutely not bullshit, I love it 🥰
I just don't want to have to pick out a new video to watch every 10min, especially if I'm doing something else and want the background audio. Love longform stuff.
They should add some form of "brittle" enemy to the game. A tough motherfucker of a unit that "breaks" when CC'd to incentivize teams to have both CC and high damage.
@@jaketheman1577 DE could make it so overguarded enemies still don't get CC entirely. Like Rhino's Stomp prior to the recent consistency patch, having CC immune enemies still take a short slow instead of outright disabling them could be a way to have CC make an impact while not entirely effing up the Eximii mechanisms. For auras or lingering CC effect, make it a weak, lingering slow while in the AoE of the CC. Combined with making Overguard naturally resistant against AoE/Ability damage unless CC'd at least once would make it so you'd have a reason to take a CC frame in your team. RN, the only reason to use a Vauban in a team is to Flechette everything to death, and hopefully do so quickly by grouping with a Vortex. Bastille itself is of little use. And even that is only worth it in a static mission type. It's not like Eximii are currently that dangerous or hard to kill either. Blitz and Toxic Eximii are the only ones I would consider dangerous... If the toxic ones weren't so weak. The others are an annoyance at best. But an annoyance that is best dealt with with death, which is by far the best CC of all... even tho it could have been more diverse than that if it had been crafted thoughtfully.
Saw the thumbnail and thought it said “He Doesn’t Understand Overguard” and was offended that you thought the Ancient didn’t understand Overguard. I’m sure Mr Ancient would love this video as much as the rest of us do.
Fun Fact: Mag's Magnetize will still form around a unit with over guard, but they won't be immobilized, so they can drag other mobs into the bubble for you as they run around.
DE relying on removing gameplay tools and options in the name of "difficulty" is getting more and more concerning. The game isn't hard when I can still just cheese everything. It's just more tedious and narrow in gameplay.
How is DE supposed to make challanges for people who have every weapon, frame, and mod? The only way to create meaningful conflict is by narrowing the range of what you have access to. A MR30 player has zero challenge with any content since they have EVERY answer.
@KokoMakesThings The problem with that is something that's just a byproduct of how DE has made this game though and how they've rewarded players for progressing. EVERY game has a contingency of players that will minmax the difficulty of even the most broken game modes into nonexistence. Scaling the difficulty to challenge the most busted players in the community, when they are in the minority, hurts the game's balance. I'm L3 and overguard is still ridiculous because it punishes players that aren't as far along to be busted so they can't compete with these numbers, while ALSO harming the players that are this far because it tales away all the stuff we have gotten by playing so much. You just kinda gotta let the OP players be OP, and if they complain, deal. It's harsh, but it's healthy for the game overall. Players like Brozime that have mapped out the math to the decimal points are always gonna shit on the game's challenges no matter what DE does.
@KokoMakesThings Warframe is not designed for traditional "challenge" as it is a power fantasy horde shooter. Taking away the gear that we work to earn is disrespectful to the time investment made in build crafting that the game greatly benefits from. It's also lazy to just remove options rather than making more engaging gameplay around what is already available. Creating interactive and engaging hoops for players to jump through is a great way to add depth to "endgame" content. An example is having completely invulnerable enemies that require a simple gimmick to remove their invulnerability (think similar to kuva guardians) such as being invulnerable until you slide into them to knock them on their backs. Another thing is having procedurally generated puzzles (simple ones of course) that players need to do while being bombarded by enemies (would also help to indirectly buff CC). Think similar to the sacrifice quest but better where you find codes on a walls of specific rooms and you have to input them into a machine to advance to the next room. Minor optional parkour challenges that can pop up in high-level content that give you a lot of resources or valuable items. These are just a few ideas off the top of my head that would add depth to the gameplay and could be combined with other mechanics to make for some entertaining and engaging endgame.
@KokoMakesThings that's bc every answer to every piece of content is literally just shoot at it. More complex answers don't exist, and neither does gameplay depth.
I remember seeing the Eximus rework and thinking, "huh, that looks interesting" And then getting curbstomped by overguarded blitz and toxic eximus that were immune to everything Love these video-essay form videos, keep up the great work man!
I liked the idea of Void damage (And operators) being a focus of taking down overguard It sorta felt like a design intention that Zenurik's Void Drag slowed eximus down, as well as operators doing bonus damage to overguard in the patch overguard was introduced
On the temporal drag no longer affecting them, I remember when they released overguard, they specifically said it's an immunity to "Warframe Crowd Control abilities" and temporal drag is not a warframe ability so it affected them (even though none of the other operator abilities like void levitation affected them), but obviously it doesn't anymore Even though they considered using your operator to be the counter play to over guard, which using temporal drag kinda did, and that's pretty dead It would be great if they brought forward the idea of using your operator to open them up, it is all about having to notice and act on an eximus and these proposed changes are a good stepping stone to that
I took a break from the game a while ago due to life and when I came back I didn't check much of the changes, so my first instinct was to assume that new enemy with a special coating on their health bar needed to be dealt with the operator, after a friend tipped my on overguard mechanics I realized it was just a dps check :/
Operator solution sounds bad cuz switching to operators works really bad on Consoles. You have tons off buggs stunlocking you in a permanent operator of warframe, while you cant do anything else. This solution requires and entire new look to operator playstyle and how it works/feels
I actually really like the idea of void slinging into overguard to instantly break it, especially since Kuva Guardians exist so there's a precedent to do exactly that already (kinda surprised you didn't mention them tbh). I think a good thing to go along with that would be to overhaul amps to be moddable or something similar as a way of really incentivizing fluid switches from frame to flesh, especially with how much DE is pushing operator gameplay in recent years
Make eximus units consume 1/3 of their overguard to cast enhanced abilities (With a cool draining animation on the health bar during their cast windup). Once overguard has been expended, the time between casts is increased or their power/range is reduced to current levels or lower.
My only problem with this concept is that fires and blasts are still liable to make you regret picking Inaros or Nidus if they show up at the wrong time
I find the Demolisher idea good, but there is a tweak I'd argue is needed. And that's the Demolishers should have an automatic explosion when the timer ends with a set radius. If you kill the Demolisher, then it doesn't blow up, meanwhile if you control the target from getting close to the conduit so that the auto-detonation doesn't hit it. This creates 2 paths, either pour out damage to destroy them, or use CC to keep them away. Some CC would be far better then others, it would allow a more CC focused style, while not leaving a CC disabling enemy just running around. Had that happen once because of Pathfinding issues, just kinda found it running around.
18:02 My footage of this was not trying to die, and the rest of my team mates were being swatted like flies every 2 seconds, while not being able to see them, not being able to see the boss, while I was gradually running out of ammo on my Strun Prime, while my energy was being drained by the Liminus
This is also my first deep Archimedea run. So i have to do this run twice to unlock the elite version, that assasination mission is probably my most stressful, enganging, intense and actually unforgettable experience warframe has given me.
Honestly, the biggest loser when Overguard first became a thing (aside from Limbo lol) was Grendel. His entire kit ceases to exist without dudes in his belly. The bolstered belligerents modifier literally turns off an entire warframe, and just not being able to vacuum up overguarded enemies felt really bad
Reduced CC effectiveness like what happened with Sentients in Scarlet Spear is what I would really prefer. It wasn't an all or nothing situation, it punished mindlessly CCing the entire map but was still effective for slowing down the elite enemies briefly making them easier to deal with. CC frames like Limbo weren't made useless, it just forced them to play smarter and it reduced how disruptive they were to the rest of the squad/mission flow.
The duviri defense with all the eximus units on the steel path portals really indeed can get kind of overwhelming to deal with, so we always have one friend on how we like to call it "Eximus Janitor" so we have more control over it and more breathing room they can really stack up in the portal SP defenses in duviri you are really going to enjoy your time
As someone who has also played this game for 10 years, I really want to thank you for being the voice of reason (as I see it) in the community. I wholeheartedly believe that this game is just this close to getting it right, but without proper communication with the community (and honestly who can blame DE for not wanting to touch the warframe subredit), changes are relatively slow. But they do happen, which is so much more than I can say about other games. And about the video, I hold the belief that Trib makes some of the greatest warframe content on the platform, and it's gonna be very hard to rise up to his level of quality, yet here you are. From the status tierlist to the "weird status effects" and all the other vids, you're really high up there. Thanks for dedicating yourself to this game, more than most of us have, and genuinely being entertaining while also keeping it coherent. Keep it up! You're gonna go far CoolKid! (get it? The Offspring reference?.... I'm old, I know.) Edit: Grammar
The operator solution is lowkey kind of genius. I would love a reason to make operators decent, even if it means making amps do a bit more damage cause i really hate operator as they are now.
They should’ve made operators just above or right under warframes in terms of power I’d love the ability to switch to operator during a mission because I want to Not because I have to, to get my buffs and whatever Let me use void infused guns and melee let me move with style and flow not exactly like warframes but give me a little bit more movement freedom. Give me void abilities based on the focus school that I choose That affect myself in operator mode and my warframe and my entire team. This addition would add so much more variety to builds and warframes combat in general. Also it’s just great to make players be more engaged with certain mechanics of the game that require a different method that isn’t warframe big dmg numbers. We need operator mode to be good and fun and solid not fast paced Just properly done And lore wise the Tenno and their void powers are supposed to be a force so strong no enemy can defeat them that easily make that possible in actual gameplay not just lore. I hope DE is considering this but they’re just waiting for the right update to implement this change Like us meeting void father or man in the wall Void devil Unlocks full control and power of the void Or a quest where after we defeat void devil we take full control of the void and it supercharges our health, shields, armor and gives us the freedom to choose abilities for our Tenno and the strength to wield weapons that are as good or better than wf warframes but imbued with void dmg Give us the ability to mod our weapons and our operators Put in mods in the game that are Tenno focused mods that provide support for the warframe when you switch to it and vice versa Like idk man just something Cuz right now operators are just a side upgrade tool for wf and they shouldn’t be.
My biggest gripe on operators is some of the minor things that really slow them down to me. No bullet jump or even double jump for example. They actually take fall damage. Sure they have their void dash but that is far harder to control than the Warframe’s movements. And it’s arguable that if you fix operators to have no difference in movement then why have them exist at all? I’ve never enjoyed operator gameplay as it feels like slamming on the brakes compared to how free your movement is in your Warframe.
Excellent work on this video. You raise a ton of points about CC’s role in WF and give suggestions that I think would be super beneficial. I remember having a blast going through the SP Star chart with Vauban right up until the new Eximus units released. He was still fun for me, but it suddenly felt harder for him to shine. Hopefully DE takes another look at this system in the future!
I think Vauban's combat tactician/engineer playstyle is really cool and unique but he gets shut down pretty hard by OG overuse. That, and Ancient Disruptors counter his Vortex now which baffles me.
Yes You are right, I agree finally someone mentioned the circuit defense mission. its honestly completely ridiculous. So far I was able to complete the lvl 9999 defense mission on duviri with : Frost, nekros and revenant because 1 - frost has snow globe and can slow down overguarded enemies with ice then kill the priority targets, 2 - revenant and nekros are able to grab the agro of overguarded enemies thanks to thralls and necromancy respectively. But for a lot of other warframes it is straight up impossible, I tried doing it with chroma but the only thing he has is effigy roar which can stun regular enemies allowing you to attack overguarded enemies but the roar does not last long enough and effigy can survive for up to 5 seconds while vex armor is buffing it. Basically, overguard is cool and all but it is not being used in moderation at the moment and some warframes have absolutely nothing they can do against it making some content in the game impossible for them.
Now i know im quite late and using any specific frame is always a bit iffy, but i have been able to easily solo it with mesa as she can simply kill every enemy beford they even get close to damage defense target and i supose this is just another prime example why damage frames are so much better currently
To add to the EDA with the eximus fragmented tide, I too have completed that mission. It took a squad of 4 people about 15 minutes of continuous bullet jumping and reviving to take the dude down. There were probably upwards of 20 eximus units cramped into the tiny arena and the fact we even managed on itself is a miracle.
40:31 The timer is there because sometimes the demolisher would get stuck in an inaccessible location and would thus softlock the mission otherwise, if I remember correctly. This might be a completely false memory, but I do seem to remember a time where the timer was not there and I got screwed over by that exact scenario
Sanctuary Onslaught enemies give more effeciency when killed is a pretty decent idea, because canonically, Simaris is studying how you fight, so tactical usage of abilities to manage combat situations when brute force proves insufficient should be something he's interested in.
This video was just so good, and so needed man. I truly hope that DE will do something to help and heal the damage they did. Okay so; 8:25 I know the Eximus update is a bit ago, but 2 prime examples of how DE nerfed Enemies to not do this in is significant. Lowering the enemy level in certain quests, Sayah´s vigil pretty much introducing the Nox just let´s you run past it with melee. Any Eximus is also just a Glowing variant from other enemies, you headshot it on earth and it´s dead. you melee it on earth it´s dead. Rolling is also never explored, many things. I actually just put up a forum post about Difficulty and New player experience, cuz i think this leads to damage being the only relevant way to play the game. A few Ideas Fighting the damage meta from me; Adaptation for eximus units with a quick fall-off. This affects CC AND DAMAGE, however CC degrades the Damage immunity, and Damage degrades theyr CC immunity. The same mechanic could work on Sentients, making them actually challanging and less of a Damage bar again. Honestly the same mechanic should be used for Bosses aswell, imagine a 10% Cap per strike 4x for headshots cuz they hard to hit, that cap stays the same, and perhaps that triggers the actual Adaptation. A knockback from blast and impact could be always the same duration, making it a little more relevant, while scaling duration suffers with each cast. Another new Enemy type to deal with this issue would be a debuff Eximus, an Aura that nerfs the damage output of the player, with the aura growing like Nullifier bubbles, but can be reduced by cc again, and propperly damaged from far away, perhaps making Snipers a bit more convinient too. The operator idea actually also is good, but i gotta disagree; Amps CAN DO MASSIVE DAMAGE. With arcanes and all, i can oneshot SP Heavys with Armor strip. That is convinient for a skilltree that offers instant armor strip. Most other options, besides crit are weak though, because damage always overrules everything. Which is why Status still needs some buffs. Especially with weird Status caps that just deny playstyles. For gameplay and mission types, yeah Defense need something. Atleast the first 5 waves should go by with time, and be a total extermination on the FINAL stage. The worst part is to look for that last enemy each wave, that feeling is something we all hate. Otherwise it would be pretty funny to have enemies spawn infinetly, and always stay there. With certain AOE nukes, it would possibly make it more efficient to bundle all waves enemies and delete them with the bramma or something, making saving ammo and run arounds. The capture one, i also just Feel so hard. There is no reason for it to work like that. Especially since the game was supposed to be stealth, yet that enemy just knows all, and status immunity is so boooring. I think any enemy that is "immune" to anything, we have clear mechanics like Acholytes going invincible, and getting cleared of status which i respect, but then we have that limit of 4 Heat and viral procs, which makes certain builds super weak and condition overloads nerfed as hell. Abilities like Mesa´s 4 should also work, just with that damage reduction to force some rethinking, and CC to deny some Telegraphed attacks is also totally valid, of course no 10 second Root but let me use my stuff damn! Or a slow is cool. For ESO; You know that bounty mission where you need to keep the area clear of enemies? If Sanctuary worked a little more like that, and CC´d enemie would ignore the Domination-percentage, that would be very nice. Actually making defense work like that is also a good idea no?
40:32 for the timer. i think its less clear now than it was at launch that the timer is a built in safety net for when the demolisher bugs out, fails to path or fails to spawn. I remember it being fairly common when the gamemode first rolled out to pass the timer without seeing or finding the demo because it got lost or spawned out of bounds.
I think all your complaints are pretty fair, and you actually seen to understand why they added overguard unlike most conversations I see about the topic. I think the overguard granted by healers and the hands are not really a big deal, as I kinda just see that as a way to telegraph a damage resistance buff that you can take care of, even if the enemies it is applied to dont actually have any special attacks to warrant them having overguard. It is kind of like the corpus shield drones but if their sheild recharge made enemies CC immune. Though I could see a fair argument for enemies like the healer and hand enemy not applying the CC immunity and only damage resistance which would still incentivise you to deal with them first. And I agree that they are going a little to heavy with the overguard spam. I would prefer if they pivot to different types of modifiers for creating interesting scenarios. I also think they could look into CC still having some effect on Overguard, like a % overguard strip over time from CC abilities so that they still have some use while keeping the original intent of overguard intact. I like some of the possible fixes you presented as well
I wouldn't mind the wardens if it weren't for the fact that they can only be damaged on the arms, but can turn 180 degrees near instantly. It makes it extremely frustrating trying to deal with them.
The funny thing about this is overgaurd didnt do its original job to the point DE now makes certain enemies invincible while they do their special move.
As a Limbo Main I’m not too upset by these issues because I have ways of working around it (cold procs go brrrrr) but they seriously need to give some CC abilities the ability to bypass overguard again or have reduced effectiveness on CC over no effectiveness. Or just make it work like player Overguard giving status immunity.
@@lookalike4805 The purpose of Overguard for players is to serve as a free health pool, the purpose of Overguard for enemies is to stop them from being turned off by CC-there are many ways to implement either of this without straight CC immunity
This discussion needed to happen. I have 5.5k hours in Warframe since late 2015. Everything this man said was a fact and I couldn't agree more with each detail. DE will either listen to these great ideas, or offer you a job. Great video.
Its the weird dichotomy, where Overguard provides a Resistance to Damage (by adding eHP), a Resistance to Status (capped procs), but then just flat out negates CC. Your Fair/Unfair difficulty is somethng I've written myself. Though I used the term reductive/subtractive difficulty. Where the game removes its mechanics (randomly or otherwise) rather then promoting scenarios that require creative and complete use of the games entire toolkit. A hyperbolic example would be if a shooter simply decided you could only reload twice per level, or randomly jammed your gun to prevent you from shooting. For Helldivers I'd cite the difference between fire tornados that force you to reposition and move, cold conditions that influence your weapon choicses, vs Ion Storms disabling your strategems or the (only on high difficulties) planet modifier that cuts your 4 tools to 3. Rather then halfing soft effects, or softening hard effects (Paralyze become slow, Disarm/jam become damage debuff, Blind becomes accuracy debuff) etc. (With the weird exception of Vauban, who's 4 does transform into a slow effect, which was added but undocumented) Hard to tell much from Deep Archimedia. They got pressured for the Netracell loot tables being kind of derpy but evidently didn't want it to be overewarding (which is somewhat fair, its largely unfailable and simply a time sync for rewards and if it dropped guaranteed high end stuff arguably trivializing other things like Archon Hunts) So it seems like DA just got rushed out with half upcycled ideas (like the RNG and various existing sortie/netracell/disruption mutators), and half random "throw it at the wall" brainstorming ideas without any significant evaluation (particularly when they double up randomly) DE not understanding or having a vision for CC kind of comes from Pablo (who is now the chief gameplay guy) unfortunately having made tweets regarding Limbo, Loki, and CC in general that were very critical of it as a "turn the gameplay off" button, expressed inability to design around it. (Also the Hydroid rework, which took away huge chunks of CC utility from his kit in favor of making Saryn-lite)
I gotta be completely honest, I'd love it if I saw my boi Limbo get some love. But if a Limbo rework meant Pablo just made him a status spreading, overguard giving support frame, I'd rather Pablo not touch Limbo at all. Like if Pablo can't understand that dealing millions and billions of damage and CC BOTH are "turn game off" buttons, then I hope he stays FAR away from reworking CC frames
I really like the Operator solution. The +50% damage bonus should be like, +500% (but ONLY if the damage comes from an amp or companion with Astral Bond, because I don't want Xaku to become more broken than they already are)
On the note of gamemodes, one thing I always think can be addressed is the reward quality & pace in missions. As it stands, Void Capture is the best for farming (most) relics and exterminate/rescue fissures are usually the most ran mission types for its speed as well as allowing damage to flourish there. (There is also some T6 fissure nodes that are quite good too) Back in the day Xini Eris and Heirachon Pluto were go to farms for all kinds of stuff but because these nodes were Interception & Excavation, it organically allowed the use of CC without feeling forced or arbitrary. By design these nodes worked well with CC, but because there isn't a huge reason to run these missions anymore, CC doesn't get to see much organic use, a great example as you've mentioned is Mirror Defense but I think doing a reward rebalance/overview of many older nodes could do justice. Even as simple as adding 2 items per rotation in interception can go a long way. Enough to compete with Void Capture? Not a chance, but enough to make the modes feel genuinely decent in today's era of Warframe. Though this example is a specific one I like to bring up.
I'm honestly glad about the approach to Overguard being from the thesis of 'this was put in place because CC prevented enemies with unique mechanics from mattering'. I left a comment on the Trib video you mentioned in the intro to that effect, and a lot of people misinterpreted me as saying 'Overguard was implemented because CC was generally too powerful', and that I was Stupid for saying anything, but... No, the problem was actually that DE can't make a cool new enemy type that matters if you can just mass stun everything guaranteed, you're never gonna see a Blitz Eximus do the cool dangerous new shockwave blast move they programmed and animated if it's already asleep. The game design theory is sound on paper when you think about it from that angle; in a world where every warframe was usually coming with some 3 or 4 that was just 'massive radial AoE lockdown effect that tells everyone to fuck off', making priority threats was difficult and this was their solution. The problem that has arisen is that the response provided by the players, which the devs leaned into, was 'what if we just dealt enough damage to an AoE of approximately the same effective size that we could just kill everything'. We got the one-two punch of Kullervo and Dagath one after another who basically kill at the same rate older frames could CC, and now we're at a point where we have frames like Dante and Jade doing some truly heinous shit to this poor video game where you can just kill enemies you don't even know exist yet. Of course CC is going to feel lower value when you can measure performance in KPM at Steel Path Level Cap, ESPECIALLY when they keep using Overguard as just something to add to make gameplay more difficult just for the way it inflates enemy HP and technically 'fights back against the player', ignoring how many frames this completely invalidates, because god forbid a Nidus player get to generate mutation stacks in a Circuit run, you'd really be breaking the meta with that Warframe from 2016. Basically I'm glad this video is verbalizing the exact feelings I've had for a long time, good stuff
I know basically just reiterating it, but, yeah, this has kinda become a cat and mouse type game, where they try to make the players deal with unique abilities by preventing just soft neutralizing them, but since then the easiest solution then becomes just nuking them just like all the fodder enemies, players stop experiencing those abilities by annihilating them, so they feel need to force higher numbers of them so players have no choice, which just leaves CC lagging even further behind when they cant touch more and more of the percentage of enemies spawning with their abilities, when they function best against those types of special stronger foes, since damage can just wipe out all basic enemies quickly enough
Also about defence being time based - DA Mirror Defence (and Survival) have a neat semi-hidden function we could add so players won't feel they sit ducks until timer is over. Going near Mech dispenser you can forcibly spawn Eximus one, killing it reduces timer by 45s.
CoolKid369 giving their non-meta-enslaved opinion on WF? You're about to sadly get jumped, kidnapped and tortured by being forced to watch KnightmareFrame putting PSF on every single frame in existence that doesn't even need it. I agree with a lot, I don't think CC is dead as well but DE sometimes really discourages it with their choices for the game, but can only hope they can learn, take notes and tweak things to not feel like a chore to deal with.. Sometimes I ask if most of them even play their game at all, I know Pablo does, but the rest?.. I don't think they do very much, Anyways, Stockholm Syndrome is back to 100%, We lose these. Also I am still mad Mirror Defense was brought back, I wanted another Void Armaggedon in the labs man, mode is a much more fun defense
Just to quickly mention this, at 6:28 when you mention Nova's Molecular Prime; the reason it doesn't work on Overguard is because Molecular Prime *only* boosts damage dealt to enemy health, not to Shields or, as you showed, Overguard. Just less of an inconsistency thing and more of a weird ability quirk.
Very well said in my opinion. The argument of having to make every frame a damage frame never really resonated with me. I genuinely hope DE sees this so that we can a more CC related frame in the future. I also reckon this was both hard to make time wise and toxic subject wise, so I wanted to say thanks for to you for making it. Cheers you’ve got yourself a new sub.
You know, this was actually the first video I watched of yours . . . I’m gonna be real with you, the amount of time this took to make deserves my subscription alone. Well done and excellent points made (coming from a 10+ year Frost main)
I've been this feeling since the Zariman update about Overguard. Specifically, that it's been a massive mistake across the board. I like the idea of making Eximus more challenging. However, what has happened is that they've just become annoying. Blitz and Toxin are overtuned, and then there's Overguard. If Overguard was just a second health bar with a ton of DR, I think I'd be ok with it, especially with the gear we have now. I'm of the camp that CC should be a direct counter to Overguard, being another way to deal with their abilities. Maybe reduced timers on their incapacitation, but just something. I haven't played Khora since Overguard, just because they just ignore the Strangledome and walk right through to punch me in the mouth. I completely agree with your points on the mission types and how CC affects them. The defense change in particular is an interesting idea, given how that's sorta how mirror defense works. But less travel, and therefore less annoying. Idk I just feel like Overguard is really what CC is meant for. Fodder are, well, fodder and aren't even really a concern. The important targets that need to be crowd controlled are just immune to it completely right now. Idk. I'm still pounding sand over Veilbreaker
i straight up Quit warframe after the first few weeks of Overgag being added due to how crap it was the decision to make the operator the seemingly intended counter (other then even more damage) while the rework did basically Nothing to improve the kid's power and nerfed them into the dirt with the whole die 4 many times as Op too soon and your frame keels over yeah its a slap in the face the devs that regurgitated it into the game should have been sacked and the update scrapped in my opinion even to this day
You mentioning wanting defense to have a timer instead of waves is interesting because i've been wanting a survival mode that's basically just defense without the defense target (and without air support) so i wanna propose splitting the game modes. Wave Defense - Defense game mode unchanged but renamed Timer Defense - Defense game mode with a timer instead of waves (What was suggested in the video) Wave Survival - Defense game mode without a defense target, for a classic wave survival experience like found in other games Timer Survival - Survival game mode unchanged but renamed
Another fantastic video and a great direction. So many other creators make reference to these issues, but few sink any real time into fleshing it all out. I felt that there were points were it was obvious that apples were apples, but also felt that there was some space for my own opinion at other points, too. You are going in some really interesting directions! Thank you :)
the visual spam on the fragmented boss with all those eximus is just too ridiculous...frames drop and it's a miracle I haven't bluescreened on that part yet
severed warden is a great support unit from a player's gameplay perspective easily identifiable in a crowd, interesting mechanics and three dimensions of movement but not too overbearing, and dispatching them is involved enough to be interesting I wish more units in warframe were like that lol
i had an idea as i was watching this: a possible way to make overguard work with CC could be to let overguarded eximus take the full CC, but when you break through overguard, they "break out" and preform their special attack before going back to being CC'd. my reasoning is that this allows you to CC eximus, but you need to be ready for their attack once overguard breaks. some issues with this would be the possibility of CCing them again before they get an attack out, but that can be fixed with a simple timer or check. another issue would be implementing it into abilities that knockdown or ragdoll enemies, like Nezha's 4.
I've never played this game before and didn't even know what is was when I clicked on this video out of curiosity. But I've got to hand it to you. It was a good video. You had me invested in a game I don't know anything about for almost a full hour, and managed to explain everything in a way that I actually understood what you were talking about. Well done sir. Well done. I wish you and the rest of the community luck in getting the CC and OG changes you want
Simply put, fantastic video. I wish takes in this format and care were more the norm. You did incredible work on this and presented it all beautifully. I really hope this gets seen in full by DE. P.S. funny thing, this is my first video of yours, what a way to discover you! :)
i love it. wow, what an amazing vid. quite nice to watch tbh, and honestly, as long and out there as it was, i think you structured it quite nicely : D . Thanks for it big boss
Love the vid furry man, keep it up. I love this new wave of WF creators (not really new but starting to be seen) that aren't toxic and overly detrimental to the community that are supposed to be creating a healthy space of discourse rather than shutting down opinions and preferences.
Your style is unique and authentic with a good vibe. I feel like I am allergic to negativity and it's great to have someone lightly deliver possible changes versus the usual beat down. Stay cool CoolKid!!!
For CC in ESO and in Survival, I think a good way to make CC useful would be to examine Circulus. Having Thrax alive while trying to farm Voruna drains your life support faster, and the reward timer pauses until they are eliminated. In order to make this work for ESO and normal Survival, there could be a pseudo-defense target (or more, depending on squad size). If enemies are interacting with the target, life support/efficiency drains faster. I don't think the timer pause is necessary in this case, but using CC to help keep enemies away from the target means CC is viable and so are damage frames, since you can just clear them. Add on a bubble like Duviri Jackal that prevents outside damage/abilities, and you are even penalized for missing enemies and allowing them to weaken you. Not a perfect solution, but brainstorming ideas amongst the community could be a path to an answer.
If nothing else, it could make it where squad effectiveness can't just be tracked with damage output percent. I don't like playing CC frames because they don't feel useful. I'd love to get excited to see Limbo in Duviri, knowing if nobody else, I will feel good about picking that frame.
Maybe add a mission type called "saqueo"(sorry dont remember the english word for it) where one ally loots the enemy Warehouse and we have to gatekeeper the enemies out and it is an endless mission. That would make cc frames useful as they keep the normal enemies from leaking, the damages frames could focus in the eximus and heavy enemies. And finally to add some spice and make you roam a bit around the map, there could appear objectives like "go to X place and intercept the demolition team" or "go to X place and stop the enemy from poisoning the air" etc.
Yes ! Absolutely yes to all of this ! I thought I was subscribed before, was not, fixed that mistake, what a great video I just watched thank you for making it :DD
I'm about 1/4 through this video and without commenting on the topic (which I think you're covering really well so far) I just wanna express just how well the ambient Warframe soundtrack works for this kind of video. Super chill
I feel like giving demolishers status reduction instead of immunity is an extremely obvious way to balance cc around them. They are, after all, enemies that are trying to get close to an objective, so it's weird how the only way to stop them is not to impair them in any way but to kill them within the time it takes them to reach it.
Funnily, I made my own video covering how Disruption is effectively just endless capture. And how the timer exists but seemed to just be a leftover of the earlier concept they originally showed on dev stream. And the modifiers (other then increased enemy speed) effectively don’t matter until level cap runs and only for a tiny window before it’s just another grain if sand in the instakill pile. Also yeah, capture targets are wackily inconsistent. Some can’t be hit by powers at all, some are CC immune, some proc status some don’t. Demolysts aren’t totally absent from the inconsistencies either (often retaining weird quirks of their base unit) Going back to that first point about Disruption changing from announcement to live. Overguard kind of suffers from the same general DE pattern. A concept is presented on the dev stream, seems fine. But the version we finally get has been altered without any further embellishment on why (ie Ancient Healers doing Overguard instead of uh, healing. And also as a result weirdly doubling on the Disruptors aura and purpose). Then down the line we get stuff being recycled and reused out of its mechanical context. Suddenly Overguard becomes more common and a difficulty pad instead of a unique mechanic. DuViri random loadouts get pulled out of their supporting architecture also as alleged difficulty (they aren’t because you can as easily roll Revenant and a Torid as Limbo and a Stug, there is no intent there). Some of that is budget and so on, but it’s seeming like stuff is thrown at a wall hoping it’ll stick then by deliberate intent. I would give some special mention. That new Zariman enemies Murmur, and even the Amalgams and more recent Sentients also don’t pair well with the eximus treatment to begin with. Most already had their unique gimmicks and the doubly up just creates a lot of noise.
Steel Path (and the various modes using derivations of it) was in itself part of this conceptual drift. A niche set of players wanted a level selection toggle so they could do their endurance stuff without sitting through hours of nothing. Fair enough, but the game structure didn’t support it so Steel path was born. With some token cosmetic bragging pieces and boosted, but no exclusive rewards. And DE said that was it and the game would never balance around it. That lasted roughly a year. Then we started getting a lot of stuff like weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, archon shards, Incarnons, exclusive arcanes. Steel Path suddenly became mandatory to engage with if you wanted to experience the full breadth of the game’s systems. Some of these were placed in Steel Path, some were added to smooth the difficulty off of steel path. Nonetheless it escaped from this concession to a niche challenge to having tendrils sink all throughout the game. And consequently that generated even more power creep (like the 8 billion available armour strips, which was helpful, but not necessary until dealing with SP armour) and other such things. Then DE cranked the enemies higher to compensate to that. Except CC exists outside of that equation and also (mostly) scaled to increased numbers as well, so they had to cut CC to further this new difficulty niche they escalated themselves into by putting effort into what was meant to be a throwaway novelty mode.
My idea to change overguard is to make enemy partially immune to CC. Abilities that pull them enemies together would pull them slowly, and they can break free depending on their weight class. Sleep, blind, mind control would have a chance to not take effect.
i think there is a lot of great analysis, suggestions, and reflections here. hopefully someone at DE sees this and thinks the same and maybe they will consider improving it in whatever way they see fit
This Video wouldn't Exist if Such a Thing Was Possible. Triburos made one Earlier this Year too... It's a Good way of Collectively Venting our Frustration over DE's design Choices but not much Else. It's not like they Killed CC by Accident... It was Very Slow and very Deliberate. All feedback about it went Ignored.
9:20 My only complaint with this comment, and I only have it because I love Limbo, is that some CC heavy frames, Like Limbo, are also less durable. I have always found Limbo a very flimsy frame, but this was saved by the fact that I could, freeze the world and regain my shields. Now that I have a enemy type that not only dishes out a large amount of damage, but also denies me that survivablitly...
18:02 it was even worse in a full squad because of the increased enemy spawns. I'm not over exaggerating when I say that you could not see ANYTHING on your screen because it was full of particle effects vomit. I had to resort to using the enemy health bars for aiming my weapons and abilities. And killing the Eximus units was useless because they were all back up in a few seconds.
Making defence time based reminded me of when i once solod a defence archon hunt and the enemies were too tough for me but i had khora, so while i or the defence target didnt die, the whole 10 waves took about 30 minutes to do since i didn't have the damage at the time
I’d always had the idea of a Loki Rework not even being a full rework anyway. Moreso a change to his passive. My idea for Loki specifically was more so the status reduction thing in a similar vein to Hydroid’s new passive. Any CC ability cast by Loki affects enemies at full potency even through Overguard. This also tags an enemy with a mark that allows other frames to affect overguarded enemies with CC abilities at a diminished potency, maybe 1/4-1/2 the power/duration. More so leaning into his role as the trickster. This would also apply to any ability subsumed onto him which may be quite powerful, but Loki needs something. Edit: one enemy everyone always seems to forget is the nullifier bubble thing that gives an enemy a nullifier bubble in the Orb Valis. Ever have one of them put one onto the mobs that lunge at you at Mach 3 on the Orb Valis? Yea, basically an immediate ‘F your abilities’.
I totally forgot about Terra Shield Drones! Yeah, those things are dumb lol I also think Loki needing a full on rework is definitely not urgently needed, mostly his passive and 4 deserve help, though I still think it would be good for him overall.
I remember literally having a dude call me a slur because I said the dante nerf was justified. I had been playing since beta on and off and that was the second that something similar to that had happened in about 2k total hours
I see your longform video, and respond in kind. I apologize in advance, but at the same time, your critique of the situation and offer of ideas got me thinking, and I enjoyed the video a ton. So, here we go. I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be more interaction with overguard besides "Haha mesa 4 go brr" or "Incarnon [Name your crit weapon of choice here] brr" because if you can resolve overguard the same way you resolve big amounts of health in the "Numbers go up" style, then it's just DPS over actually doing your work of trying to resolve the problem intelligently or put any use to what you have. I think CC abilities should definitely have some kind of effect. Vortex, Tornado, and other pulling effects should still work, but not ragdoll the target (Nautilus' cordon and Tether Grenades on the Penta launcher is a great example of this). This allows you to keep them in certain areas a bit more yes, but they can eventually break out (much like Sentients can adapt to damage types) while having overguard if allowed stay there too long. This lets you control the tide of battle for a time and single out or pull away dangerous enemies out of large groups to focus on them. Abilities that slow might instead weaken the effects of the overguard ability user, as if it slows the flow of their power and affects the potency making reduced output, to a cap of course. This means any slowing effect, even cold procs, provides a means of granting breathing room and giving a better fighting chance. Abilities that lift or hold enemies (Bastile, aegis storm, stomp, and so on.) would actively provide an effect that enhances that on enemies they support. This makes not only the enemies they support more visible (perhaps energy glow) but highlights the target that's causing trouble even more than before. While yes, they are already visible, if you have a horde of enemies blocking your sight, seeing some small group oddly glow tells you "hey there's an eximus over there" better when you're in the thick of it and don't always have the time to pick out that one eximus. Abilities that blind might be able to for a very fixed duration disrupt an active in use ability. Arctic Eximus bubbles, toxic eximus fields, arson eximus shockwaves, and so on. Give it a bit of counterplay where you're not stopping the eximus themselves, but battling the eximus ability against ability to give, again, a moment of breathing room. You still have to fight them, but you can at least stop a group of eximus from filling up the field with all their abilities at once and end up getting piled on. Perhaps about 1-2 seconds since you are speedy movement ninja. Banshee specifically using Silence is an enhanced version of this, up to 4 seconds. Look at each ability, and discover how you could change it's effects on overguard. Make it a fight where you get advantage with SOMETHING, rather than trying to just say "No CC, only damage. Go Brr or go home." As for Operator interaction, Eximus units should deal significantly less damage to the operator, and the operator does increased damage to the eximus' overguard specifically. Outright nuking the shield shouldn't be possible, but make it a reason why someone else has to keep the eximus pinned with different cc and provide cover fire against normal units who can do more damage to the operator. Make it feel like it takes at least some form of intelligence and team effort, while someone else helps crack the shield. IF all it takes is one operator ability or trick to shatter it, then the ideal of defeating overguard is push operator button, smack once, go back, return to norm. There's no need to think about their abilities, just know they exist. In my opinion, challenge exists best when you need tactics and strategy to at least some degree, not when the only solution is to min max your damage output so everything dies and then realize how shallow the meaning of overguard really becomes at that point. Again, If all you need is number go up, and a single gimmick invalidates the entirety of several warframes, you're just making people choose the Most Effective Tactic Available. Damage. Oh, and also: Ancient healers (and corrupted healers) need to function closer to what the warden does. Let tendrils of glowing mass in the style of infested latch onto a limited number of other non eximus enemies, and then make it so they are more visible. Also, limit active numbers of them as they should be treated similarly to the warden or maybe a little more by just a little bit. Wardens are a good idea executed well. Ancient healers feel like the prototype effort of wardens that need a proper rework.
I thought I was gonna spend like 5 mins listening to this video and then I stayed all the way to the end. Good content, just commenting to say thank you🤙
Overguard, scaling, how game mechanics work and interact, what the meta is, why the meta is, and what fun is-among many other things, which DE does not understand
Fantastic coverage and superb analysis of the topic. I appreciate you're explanation of making sure the design framework is not a limitation of the containing content - as in - rather than create ways to counter the issued system, to actually analyze the system that has issues itself.
Honestly i love the laat part of the video discussing the community. Because I feel like I have contributed to the emotionally fueled rants that cause such strifes in the here. Granted im like a nobody so maybe its not that much at all, but I agree that we need to take a more level headed approach and understand that DE is so insanely forgiving and interactive with the community and we may always take that for granted. There will still be thibgds de may do in the future thatll piss us off but I never want to go as far as insulting or belittling them again.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Edit: hey all, a few things to note:
I wanna apologize for the EXTREMELY annoying squeaking noise in the background, my chair was feeling nefarious and I didn't notice at the time. This took me like 2 and a half hours to record and I couldn't fix it in post, so just uh, I dunno, listen on bad speakers or lower the volume, I'll fix it by the next video (probably).
I also wanna add that Corrupted Ancients are more noticeable than regular Healers, as ranged units stick near them, so they don't just wander out of the radius. Even so, its still like 2 enemies at any given time and they're still flawed. I also forgot to mention how Arbitration Drones nullify CC, and I think it would be totally fair to allow enemies under their effect to be CCable. Last thing is about Nullifiers, where a lot of people mentioned that their shield regenerating causes a lot of problems, so they could be changed to lose their bubble permanently when it breaks to avoid this. To keep the shield drone relevant, maybe it could do like a radial electric proc or somesuch when destroyed, but that's just an idea.
A lot of people also disagree with my idea of changing defense, and while I still stand by it, I think that there could be a compromise: killing Eximus reducing the timer by 5 seconds. Considering that they have Overguard CC won't stop them from getting close enough to be killed, so I think that could be a solid way to strike a balance.
Also, I want to note that Inaros is a very CC focused character even post rework. I didn't count him as a lot of those elements are carried over from his older kit, but in the name of fairness I think it is noteworthy that they did keep this part of Inaros' identity intact (which funnily enough makes the hesitancy to rework Loki even more confusing).
Lastly, to all of the people who are simply saying I have a skill issue or somesuch, please actually listen to my argument on this. This game is easy as shit, I am well aware of that fact, I am not proposing changes with the goal of making the game easier. I find it sad that a once rich playstyle has been abandoned and the frames that use it consequently crippled, and I want to allow people to play the game in ways other than damage spam. If you like spamming damage, that's fine, but it doesn't mean the problem does not exist.
oh i thought that was just your voice /j
That's not Unique to Ancient Healers.... I've Seen Enemies glue to Nullifiers and Arbitration Drones too...
The Latter will Intentionally Position itself Behind the Same Enemies it's Protecting because Apparently Full Invincibility wasn't Annoying Enough Already. 😐
I never heard a squeak once. Maybe because of my audio settings.
I didn't even notice the sound lol
Personally I _still_ don't think Loki needs a "rework." Simply making Decoy scale made it incredibly useful for a whole lot of content, as it is one of THE strongest threat generators in the entire game, and there is footage out there showing it'll literally prevent Defence targets from being attacked. In a similar vein, making Switch Teleport more usable in general is still appreciated.
The only part of his kit that is outright lacking for me, currently, is Radial Disarm, which could REALLY use a damage vuln component to make it relevant outside of its CC functionality. From there, the only gripe is with Invisibility not being meaningfully distinct from Ash's invis, and his passive not really seeing a whole lot of usage since people have almost zero reason to wall latch all that much, but its usage isn't completely zero; if they made Switch Teleporting from a wall latch dangle the affected target from a choking wire for Loki's modded wall latch duration with threat generation and friendly fire, we could see some funny stuff going on with Damage Decoy.
i took a shot every time he said overguard or crowd control, and drank so much i integer overflowed into being sober
Bing's solution to alcohol poisoning.
Today's top comment 😂😂
Your honor, I wasn't drunk driving. I had drank so much I was actually sober again
the Deep Rock Galactic approach to drinking
A playtester walks into a bar, that's what they'd do.
Nullifiers just need to be changed to how they used to function: disable powers when you enter inside but they can't outright 'pop' abilities by touching them with their bubble. A nullifier shouldn't instantly pop an atlas wall, limbos cataclysm, or frosts snow globe as examples. Instead, all enemies inside the bubble will be immune to abilities as it should be, allowing a nullifier and any enemies inside to walk inside cataclysm unfazed until their bubble is popped, in which they would be frozen by stasis. If they were an eximus they would also need to have their overugard removed.
Easy fix and avoids lore breaking things like nullifiers destroying pockets of alternate realities and somehow nullifying infestation.
Yes and I also think they need to fix fhe nullfire bubbles weak point so that slow weapons can also reliably pop them
T H I S.
Yeah, an example would be with a Cataclysm, a Nullifier shouldn't destroy the bubble, rather their bubble should essentially be like a second, inverse bubble, putting everything within that bubble into real-space rather than the Rift.
@@silverlyderI still explicitly run a mag dump secondary on my Limbo, just for them
Ohh... I hate nullys for that reason...
I simply need to mention this lovely interaction.
If you pop a nully bubble, and drag him into a vauban vortex, he'll be able to recast his bubble while actively being stuck in the vortex, thereby cancelling the ability and *freeing everyone affected, not just himself*
Is that good or bad? I think it sounds cool.
@@ninjaeddy1717 It's bad.
@@ninjaeddy1717 it basically turn off the entire vauban ability without reason
Same goes for zephyr tornadoes :(
Same applies to limbo and his cata. You wanna bust most eximus and nulls down with cc and damage as limbo? Invest in rift torrent and subsume a wisp for breach and bust their heads closing to 5 mill with molt aug stacked and arcane energizer
"schizo eximus units" has to be my favorite idea of all time
The Fearful Conspirator Experience
Well the big bad exists
i personally am a big fan of eximus units sometimes just nuking my health because the toxin effect refuses to show up for a solid 20 seconds
I too love guardian Eximus with tons of overguard and shields that make it really difficult to hit with guns.
I really love shield eximus in SP. I really enjoy not being able to shoot his head off because of its dumb shield and making every enemy nearby tankier.
Absolutely not bullshit, I love it 🥰
I genuinely like that theres enemies that make you do something other than pull a trigger
@unsubme2157 ? all overguard does is make you pull the trigger
@usdepartmentoftreasuryinte6052 they are talking about the 3 floating shields around guard eximus, those shields are immune to gunfire
I LOVE LONG FORM CONTENT, I LOVE DEEP DIVES WITH A LOT OF INTROSPECTION AND CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF VIDEOGAMES
YOU AND ME BRO, I JUST LOVE TO LISTEN TO DEEP DIVES ON MECHANICS FROM GAMES I LOVE
I just don't want to have to pick out a new video to watch every 10min, especially if I'm doing something else and want the background audio. Love longform stuff.
Every RUclipsr ever: "I'm so sorry for this long-form video"
Also every RUclipsr ever: *the 5 hour videos are always the most popular*
They should add some form of "brittle" enemy to the game. A tough motherfucker of a unit that "breaks" when CC'd to incentivize teams to have both CC and high damage.
This is how Guild Wars 2 does boss enemies. I think that making some Eximus units function like this could be interesting.
Ounce you can cc eximus there is literally no threats in the room whatsoever. They need more enemies that make me feel like i could possibly die.
@@jaketheman1577 DE could make it so overguarded enemies still don't get CC entirely. Like Rhino's Stomp prior to the recent consistency patch, having CC immune enemies still take a short slow instead of outright disabling them could be a way to have CC make an impact while not entirely effing up the Eximii mechanisms. For auras or lingering CC effect, make it a weak, lingering slow while in the AoE of the CC.
Combined with making Overguard naturally resistant against AoE/Ability damage unless CC'd at least once would make it so you'd have a reason to take a CC frame in your team.
RN, the only reason to use a Vauban in a team is to Flechette everything to death, and hopefully do so quickly by grouping with a Vortex. Bastille itself is of little use.
And even that is only worth it in a static mission type.
It's not like Eximii are currently that dangerous or hard to kill either. Blitz and Toxic Eximii are the only ones I would consider dangerous... If the toxic ones weren't so weak. The others are an annoyance at best. But an annoyance that is best dealt with with death, which is by far the best CC of all... even tho it could have been more diverse than that if it had been crafted thoughtfully.
@@tapirdebainThis is the way
It should be it's own type of special unit @KokoMakesThings
Saw the thumbnail and thought it said “He Doesn’t Understand Overguard” and was offended that you thought the Ancient didn’t understand Overguard.
I’m sure Mr Ancient would love this video as much as the rest of us do.
Considering he doesn't apply it consistently, he probably doesn't understand it lol
It's not his fault that the other creatures keep walking out of his radius. I wouldn't reapply it to those strays either...
@@vallewabbel9690 the support always gets blamed :(
Fun Fact: Mag's Magnetize will still form around a unit with over guard, but they won't be immobilized, so they can drag other mobs into the bubble for you as they run around.
Not really a fun fact when every mag player with a brain knows this
@@PetroleumJellyJuggernaut How often do you see a mag player?
@andrewwilliams8951 alot
@@PetroleumJellyJuggernaut I didn't know this, though, I also don't play mag even though I have her sitting in my arsenal.
@@andrewwilliams8951 every time i look in the mirror
DE relying on removing gameplay tools and options in the name of "difficulty" is getting more and more concerning. The game isn't hard when I can still just cheese everything. It's just more tedious and narrow in gameplay.
To be fair CC and not killing fast enough is also annoying, you can already do super CC with icewave augment and it's just ok hard support.
How is DE supposed to make challanges for people who have every weapon, frame, and mod?
The only way to create meaningful conflict is by narrowing the range of what you have access to. A MR30 player has zero challenge with any content since they have EVERY answer.
@KokoMakesThings The problem with that is something that's just a byproduct of how DE has made this game though and how they've rewarded players for progressing. EVERY game has a contingency of players that will minmax the difficulty of even the most broken game modes into nonexistence. Scaling the difficulty to challenge the most busted players in the community, when they are in the minority, hurts the game's balance. I'm L3 and overguard is still ridiculous because it punishes players that aren't as far along to be busted so they can't compete with these numbers, while ALSO harming the players that are this far because it tales away all the stuff we have gotten by playing so much. You just kinda gotta let the OP players be OP, and if they complain, deal. It's harsh, but it's healthy for the game overall. Players like Brozime that have mapped out the math to the decimal points are always gonna shit on the game's challenges no matter what DE does.
@KokoMakesThings Warframe is not designed for traditional "challenge" as it is a power fantasy horde shooter. Taking away the gear that we work to earn is disrespectful to the time investment made in build crafting that the game greatly benefits from. It's also lazy to just remove options rather than making more engaging gameplay around what is already available. Creating interactive and engaging hoops for players to jump through is a great way to add depth to "endgame" content. An example is having completely invulnerable enemies that require a simple gimmick to remove their invulnerability (think similar to kuva guardians) such as being invulnerable until you slide into them to knock them on their backs. Another thing is having procedurally generated puzzles (simple ones of course) that players need to do while being bombarded by enemies (would also help to indirectly buff CC). Think similar to the sacrifice quest but better where you find codes on a walls of specific rooms and you have to input them into a machine to advance to the next room. Minor optional parkour challenges that can pop up in high-level content that give you a lot of resources or valuable items. These are just a few ideas off the top of my head that would add depth to the gameplay and could be combined with other mechanics to make for some entertaining and engaging endgame.
@KokoMakesThings that's bc every answer to every piece of content is literally just shoot at it. More complex answers don't exist, and neither does gameplay depth.
I remember seeing the Eximus rework and thinking, "huh, that looks interesting"
And then getting curbstomped by overguarded blitz and toxic eximus that were immune to everything
Love these video-essay form videos, keep up the great work man!
A reasonable and critical video without any dev bashing? The Warframe subreddit is rapidly approaching your location.
Learning I could roll through the Arson eximus fire wave was a life changing event.
I liked the idea of Void damage (And operators) being a focus of taking down overguard
It sorta felt like a design intention that Zenurik's Void Drag slowed eximus down, as well as operators doing bonus damage to overguard in the patch overguard was introduced
On the temporal drag no longer affecting them, I remember when they released overguard, they specifically said it's an immunity to "Warframe Crowd Control abilities" and temporal drag is not a warframe ability so it affected them (even though none of the other operator abilities like void levitation affected them), but obviously it doesn't anymore
Even though they considered using your operator to be the counter play to over guard, which using temporal drag kinda did, and that's pretty dead
It would be great if they brought forward the idea of using your operator to open them up, it is all about having to notice and act on an eximus and these proposed changes are a good stepping stone to that
I took a break from the game a while ago due to life and when I came back I didn't check much of the changes, so my first instinct was to assume that new enemy with a special coating on their health bar needed to be dealt with the operator, after a friend tipped my on overguard mechanics I realized it was just a dps check :/
Operator solution sounds bad cuz switching to operators works really bad on Consoles. You have tons off buggs stunlocking you in a permanent operator of warframe, while you cant do anything else. This solution requires and entire new look to operator playstyle and how it works/feels
Specifically instructed to wait until the video is over before commenting, commenting in defiance at the 1:00 mark
THY END IS NOW
JUDGEMENT
**Uses Soul Survivor Augment**
CRUSH
YOU CAN'T ESCAPE!
*BOOM*
I actually really like the idea of void slinging into overguard to instantly break it, especially since Kuva Guardians exist so there's a precedent to do exactly that already (kinda surprised you didn't mention them tbh). I think a good thing to go along with that would be to overhaul amps to be moddable or something similar as a way of really incentivizing fluid switches from frame to flesh, especially with how much DE is pushing operator gameplay in recent years
Make eximus units consume 1/3 of their overguard to cast enhanced abilities (With a cool draining animation on the health bar during their cast windup). Once overguard has been expended, the time between casts is increased or their power/range is reduced to current levels or lower.
My only problem with this concept is that fires and blasts are still liable to make you regret picking Inaros or Nidus if they show up at the wrong time
@@QuantemDeconstructorlol inaros? Nidus is still pretty solid as long as you’re solo/away from your team, he has a very selfish playstyle sadly
@@thethumblessn00b19 Ideally all frames are playable
Also losing 15 Mutation sucks sometimes
@@QuantemDeconstructor Roll through the fire blast and watch out for a blitz eximus?
Yareli Prime mating press will bring CC back to the game
Mating press?
@@monkaeyes google it on a school computer trust
@@monkaeyes It's a sex position
Wild op liked this comment
Average warframe fan moment
I find the Demolisher idea good, but there is a tweak I'd argue is needed. And that's the Demolishers should have an automatic explosion when the timer ends with a set radius. If you kill the Demolisher, then it doesn't blow up, meanwhile if you control the target from getting close to the conduit so that the auto-detonation doesn't hit it. This creates 2 paths, either pour out damage to destroy them, or use CC to keep them away.
Some CC would be far better then others, it would allow a more CC focused style, while not leaving a CC disabling enemy just running around. Had that happen once because of Pathfinding issues, just kinda found it running around.
Fair point! I forgot about that fact
"Schitzo eximus units nobody else can see"
holy fuck my sides lmao
18:02 My footage of this was not trying to die, and the rest of my team mates were being swatted like flies every 2 seconds, while not being able to see them, not being able to see the boss, while I was gradually running out of ammo on my Strun Prime, while my energy was being drained by the Liminus
This is also my first deep Archimedea run. So i have to do this run twice to unlock the elite version, that assasination mission is probably my most stressful, enganging, intense and actually unforgettable experience warframe has given me.
@@bintangbachtary6651 I got dante on that week triumph spam legit carried the squad and not single down person
Just hoping that someone at DE actually sees this (probably not)
Honestly, the biggest loser when Overguard first became a thing (aside from Limbo lol) was Grendel. His entire kit ceases to exist without dudes in his belly. The bolstered belligerents modifier literally turns off an entire warframe, and just not being able to vacuum up overguarded enemies felt really bad
Grendel in Eximus stronghold just becomes pre rework Inaros
Reduced CC effectiveness like what happened with Sentients in Scarlet Spear is what I would really prefer.
It wasn't an all or nothing situation, it punished mindlessly CCing the entire map but was still effective for slowing down the elite enemies briefly making them easier to deal with. CC frames like Limbo weren't made useless, it just forced them to play smarter and it reduced how disruptive they were to the rest of the squad/mission flow.
The duviri defense with all the eximus units on the steel path portals really indeed can get kind of overwhelming to deal with, so we always have one friend on how we like to call it "Eximus Janitor" so we have more control over it and more breathing room they can really stack up in the portal SP defenses in duviri you are really going to enjoy your time
As someone who has also played this game for 10 years, I really want to thank you for being the voice of reason (as I see it) in the community. I wholeheartedly believe that this game is just this close to getting it right, but without proper communication with the community (and honestly who can blame DE for not wanting to touch the warframe subredit), changes are relatively slow. But they do happen, which is so much more than I can say about other games.
And about the video, I hold the belief that Trib makes some of the greatest warframe content on the platform, and it's gonna be very hard to rise up to his level of quality, yet here you are. From the status tierlist to the "weird status effects" and all the other vids, you're really high up there. Thanks for dedicating yourself to this game, more than most of us have, and genuinely being entertaining while also keeping it coherent. Keep it up! You're gonna go far CoolKid! (get it? The Offspring reference?.... I'm old, I know.)
Edit: Grammar
As good as I'm sure tribs videos are, I simply cannot stand listening to his voice tbh
imagine enemies could've gather around nullifier inside his bubble so they could move into limbo's 4th ability without being stunned
The operator solution is lowkey kind of genius. I would love a reason to make operators decent, even if it means making amps do a bit more damage cause i really hate operator as they are now.
They should’ve made operators just above or right under warframes in terms of power
I’d love the ability to switch to operator during a mission because I want to
Not because I have to, to get my buffs and whatever
Let me use void infused guns and melee
let me move with style and flow not exactly like warframes but give me a little bit more movement freedom.
Give me void abilities based on the focus school that I choose
That affect myself in operator mode and my warframe and my entire team.
This addition would add so much more variety to builds and warframes combat in general.
Also it’s just great to make players be more engaged with certain mechanics of the game that require a different method that isn’t warframe big dmg numbers.
We need operator mode to be good and fun and solid
not fast paced
Just properly done
And lore wise the Tenno and their void powers are supposed to be a force so strong no enemy can defeat them that easily
make that possible in actual gameplay not just lore.
I hope DE is considering this but they’re just waiting for the right update to implement this change
Like us meeting void father or man in the wall
Void devil
Unlocks full control and power of the void
Or a quest where after we defeat void devil we take full control of the void and it supercharges our health, shields, armor and gives us the freedom to choose abilities for our Tenno and the strength to wield weapons that are as good or better than wf warframes but imbued with void dmg
Give us the ability to mod our weapons and our operators
Put in mods in the game that are Tenno focused mods that provide support for the warframe when you switch to it and vice versa
Like idk man just something
Cuz right now operators are just a side upgrade tool for wf and they shouldn’t be.
My biggest gripe on operators is some of the minor things that really slow them down to me. No bullet jump or even double jump for example. They actually take fall damage. Sure they have their void dash but that is far harder to control than the Warframe’s movements. And it’s arguable that if you fix operators to have no difference in movement then why have them exist at all? I’ve never enjoyed operator gameplay as it feels like slamming on the brakes compared to how free your movement is in your Warframe.
Excellent work on this video. You raise a ton of points about CC’s role in WF and give suggestions that I think would be super beneficial. I remember having a blast going through the SP Star chart with Vauban right up until the new Eximus units released. He was still fun for me, but it suddenly felt harder for him to shine. Hopefully DE takes another look at this system in the future!
I think Vauban's combat tactician/engineer playstyle is really cool and unique but he gets shut down pretty hard by OG overuse. That, and Ancient Disruptors counter his Vortex now which baffles me.
Yes You are right, I agree finally someone mentioned the circuit defense mission. its honestly completely ridiculous. So far I was able to complete the lvl 9999 defense mission on duviri with : Frost, nekros and revenant because 1 - frost has snow globe and can slow down overguarded enemies with ice then kill the priority targets, 2 - revenant and nekros are able to grab the agro of overguarded enemies thanks to thralls and necromancy respectively. But for a lot of other warframes it is straight up impossible, I tried doing it with chroma but the only thing he has is effigy roar which can stun regular enemies allowing you to attack overguarded enemies but the roar does not last long enough and effigy can survive for up to 5 seconds while vex armor is buffing it.
Basically, overguard is cool and all but it is not being used in moderation at the moment and some warframes have absolutely nothing they can do against it making some content in the game impossible for them.
Now i know im quite late and using any specific frame is always a bit iffy, but i have been able to easily solo it with mesa as she can simply kill every enemy beford they even get close to damage defense target and i supose this is just another prime example why damage frames are so much better currently
To add to the EDA with the eximus fragmented tide, I too have completed that mission. It took a squad of 4 people about 15 minutes of continuous bullet jumping and reviving to take the dude down. There were probably upwards of 20 eximus units cramped into the tiny arena and the fact we even managed on itself is a miracle.
That picture of Wally was pretty stimulating ngl.
All I know about Overguard is that it's really fun to stack 20 billion of it and never die.
Found the Rhino Player?
Nah, Dante
I'm just surprised that amps can't be modded to this day
huh, when you think about it. that would be nice. specially in Duviri.
40:31 The timer is there because sometimes the demolisher would get stuck in an inaccessible location and would thus softlock the mission otherwise, if I remember correctly. This might be a completely false memory, but I do seem to remember a time where the timer was not there and I got screwed over by that exact scenario
Sanctuary Onslaught enemies give more effeciency when killed is a pretty decent idea, because canonically, Simaris is studying how you fight, so tactical usage of abilities to manage combat situations when brute force proves insufficient should be something he's interested in.
This comment is a placeholder, i wanted to push the Algorythm.
You´re growing to be my favorite Warframe creator
This video was just so good, and so needed man.
I truly hope that DE will do something to help and heal the damage they did.
Okay so; 8:25 I know the Eximus update is a bit ago, but 2 prime examples of how DE nerfed Enemies to not do this in is significant.
Lowering the enemy level in certain quests, Sayah´s vigil pretty much introducing the Nox just let´s you run past it with melee.
Any Eximus is also just a Glowing variant from other enemies, you headshot it on earth and it´s dead. you melee it on earth it´s dead.
Rolling is also never explored, many things. I actually just put up a forum post about Difficulty and New player experience, cuz i think this leads to damage being the only relevant way to play the game.
A few Ideas Fighting the damage meta from me;
Adaptation for eximus units with a quick fall-off. This affects CC AND DAMAGE, however CC degrades the Damage immunity, and Damage degrades theyr CC immunity.
The same mechanic could work on Sentients, making them actually challanging and less of a Damage bar again.
Honestly the same mechanic should be used for Bosses aswell, imagine a 10% Cap per strike 4x for headshots cuz they hard to hit, that cap stays the same, and perhaps that triggers the actual Adaptation.
A knockback from blast and impact could be always the same duration, making it a little more relevant, while scaling duration suffers with each cast.
Another new Enemy type to deal with this issue would be a debuff Eximus, an Aura that nerfs the damage output of the player, with the aura growing like Nullifier bubbles,
but can be reduced by cc again, and propperly damaged from far away, perhaps making Snipers a bit more convinient too.
The operator idea actually also is good, but i gotta disagree; Amps CAN DO MASSIVE DAMAGE. With arcanes and all, i can oneshot SP Heavys with Armor strip.
That is convinient for a skilltree that offers instant armor strip.
Most other options, besides crit are weak though, because damage always overrules everything. Which is why Status still needs some buffs. Especially with weird Status caps that just deny playstyles.
For gameplay and mission types, yeah Defense need something. Atleast the first 5 waves should go by with time, and be a total extermination on the FINAL stage.
The worst part is to look for that last enemy each wave, that feeling is something we all hate.
Otherwise it would be pretty funny to have enemies spawn infinetly, and always stay there.
With certain AOE nukes, it would possibly make it more efficient to bundle all waves enemies and delete them with the bramma or something, making saving ammo and run arounds.
The capture one, i also just Feel so hard. There is no reason for it to work like that. Especially since the game was supposed to be stealth, yet that enemy just knows all, and status immunity is so boooring.
I think any enemy that is "immune" to anything, we have clear mechanics like Acholytes going invincible, and getting cleared of status which i respect, but then we have that limit of 4 Heat and viral procs, which makes certain builds super weak and condition overloads nerfed as hell.
Abilities like Mesa´s 4 should also work, just with that damage reduction to force some rethinking, and CC to deny some Telegraphed attacks is also totally valid, of course no 10 second Root but let me use my stuff damn!
Or a slow is cool.
For ESO; You know that bounty mission where you need to keep the area clear of enemies? If Sanctuary worked a little more like that, and CC´d enemie would ignore the Domination-percentage, that would be very nice. Actually making defense work like that is also a good idea no?
40:32 for the timer. i think its less clear now than it was at launch that the timer is a built in safety net for when the demolisher bugs out, fails to path or fails to spawn.
I remember it being fairly common when the gamemode first rolled out to pass the timer without seeing or finding the demo because it got lost or spawned out of bounds.
I think all your complaints are pretty fair, and you actually seen to understand why they added overguard unlike most conversations I see about the topic.
I think the overguard granted by healers and the hands are not really a big deal, as I kinda just see that as a way to telegraph a damage resistance buff that you can take care of, even if the enemies it is applied to dont actually have any special attacks to warrant them having overguard. It is kind of like the corpus shield drones but if their sheild recharge made enemies CC immune. Though I could see a fair argument for enemies like the healer and hand enemy not applying the CC immunity and only damage resistance which would still incentivise you to deal with them first.
And I agree that they are going a little to heavy with the overguard spam. I would prefer if they pivot to different types of modifiers for creating interesting scenarios. I also think they could look into CC still having some effect on Overguard, like a % overguard strip over time from CC abilities so that they still have some use while keeping the original intent of overguard intact. I like some of the possible fixes you presented as well
I wouldn't mind the wardens if it weren't for the fact that they can only be damaged on the arms, but can turn 180 degrees near instantly. It makes it extremely frustrating trying to deal with them.
Nothing as schitzophrenic as the Warframe Iceberg video. That thing is pure gold. Wish thee was another one.
The funny thing about this is overgaurd didnt do its original job to the point DE now makes certain enemies invincible while they do their special move.
DE also doesn't understand that all I want are some dual MIGHTY SEERS
the peepers
dual kuva-prime seers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@cralo2569 yes please!
@@cralo2569 and DUAL TWIN GRAKATA PRIMEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a Limbo Main I’m not too upset by these issues because I have ways of working around it (cold procs go brrrrr) but they seriously need to give some CC abilities the ability to bypass overguard again or have reduced effectiveness on CC over no effectiveness. Or just make it work like player Overguard giving status immunity.
That would Defeat the Purpose of Overguard 🤔
@@lookalike4805 if DE is creating BS rules for enemies then we should have some as well bud.
@@lookalike4805 The purpose of Overguard for players is to serve as a free health pool, the purpose of Overguard for enemies is to stop them from being turned off by CC-there are many ways to implement either of this without straight CC immunity
@@lookalike4805 Much like DE, you don't understand overguard either.
@cadenr7165
The purpose of Overguard is to Do Exactly what's doing now....
@Seoul_Soldier
Doesn't Bother me.. doubt It Bothers DE either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When youre running high level sp defense and the Jade Light eximus trailing behind you one shots the objective:
This discussion needed to happen. I have 5.5k hours in Warframe since late 2015. Everything this man said was a fact and I couldn't agree more with each detail. DE will either listen to these great ideas, or offer you a job. Great video.
If you've played the Game that long then you already know this is Going to play out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DE only listen to the chosen ones.
Its the weird dichotomy, where Overguard provides a Resistance to Damage (by adding eHP), a Resistance to Status (capped procs), but then just flat out negates CC.
Your Fair/Unfair difficulty is somethng I've written myself. Though I used the term reductive/subtractive difficulty. Where the game removes its mechanics (randomly or otherwise) rather then promoting scenarios that require creative and complete use of the games entire toolkit. A hyperbolic example would be if a shooter simply decided you could only reload twice per level, or randomly jammed your gun to prevent you from shooting. For Helldivers I'd cite the difference between fire tornados that force you to reposition and move, cold conditions that influence your weapon choicses, vs Ion Storms disabling your strategems or the (only on high difficulties) planet modifier that cuts your 4 tools to 3.
Rather then halfing soft effects, or softening hard effects (Paralyze become slow, Disarm/jam become damage debuff, Blind becomes accuracy debuff) etc. (With the weird exception of Vauban, who's 4 does transform into a slow effect, which was added but undocumented)
Hard to tell much from Deep Archimedia. They got pressured for the Netracell loot tables being kind of derpy but evidently didn't want it to be overewarding (which is somewhat fair, its largely unfailable and simply a time sync for rewards and if it dropped guaranteed high end stuff arguably trivializing other things like Archon Hunts)
So it seems like DA just got rushed out with half upcycled ideas (like the RNG and various existing sortie/netracell/disruption mutators), and half random "throw it at the wall" brainstorming ideas without any significant evaluation (particularly when they double up randomly)
DE not understanding or having a vision for CC kind of comes from Pablo (who is now the chief gameplay guy) unfortunately having made tweets regarding Limbo, Loki, and CC in general that were very critical of it as a "turn the gameplay off" button, expressed inability to design around it. (Also the Hydroid rework, which took away huge chunks of CC utility from his kit in favor of making Saryn-lite)
funny that his response then is just ... "turn these mechanics off."
I gotta be completely honest, I'd love it if I saw my boi Limbo get some love. But if a Limbo rework meant Pablo just made him a status spreading, overguard giving support frame, I'd rather Pablo not touch Limbo at all. Like if Pablo can't understand that dealing millions and billions of damage and CC BOTH are "turn game off" buttons, then I hope he stays FAR away from reworking CC frames
I really like the Operator solution. The +50% damage bonus should be like, +500% (but ONLY if the damage comes from an amp or companion with Astral Bond, because I don't want Xaku to become more broken than they already are)
On the note of gamemodes, one thing I always think can be addressed is the reward quality & pace in missions. As it stands, Void Capture is the best for farming (most) relics and exterminate/rescue fissures are usually the most ran mission types for its speed as well as allowing damage to flourish there. (There is also some T6 fissure nodes that are quite good too)
Back in the day Xini Eris and Heirachon Pluto were go to farms for all kinds of stuff but because these nodes were Interception & Excavation, it organically allowed the use of CC without feeling forced or arbitrary. By design these nodes worked well with CC, but because there isn't a huge reason to run these missions anymore, CC doesn't get to see much organic use, a great example as you've mentioned is Mirror Defense but I think doing a reward rebalance/overview of many older nodes could do justice. Even as simple as adding 2 items per rotation in interception can go a long way. Enough to compete with Void Capture? Not a chance, but enough to make the modes feel genuinely decent in today's era of Warframe. Though this example is a specific one I like to bring up.
That's honestly a very good idea, I hadn't even thought of it like that!
I'm honestly glad about the approach to Overguard being from the thesis of 'this was put in place because CC prevented enemies with unique mechanics from mattering'. I left a comment on the Trib video you mentioned in the intro to that effect, and a lot of people misinterpreted me as saying 'Overguard was implemented because CC was generally too powerful', and that I was Stupid for saying anything, but... No, the problem was actually that DE can't make a cool new enemy type that matters if you can just mass stun everything guaranteed, you're never gonna see a Blitz Eximus do the cool dangerous new shockwave blast move they programmed and animated if it's already asleep. The game design theory is sound on paper when you think about it from that angle; in a world where every warframe was usually coming with some 3 or 4 that was just 'massive radial AoE lockdown effect that tells everyone to fuck off', making priority threats was difficult and this was their solution.
The problem that has arisen is that the response provided by the players, which the devs leaned into, was 'what if we just dealt enough damage to an AoE of approximately the same effective size that we could just kill everything'. We got the one-two punch of Kullervo and Dagath one after another who basically kill at the same rate older frames could CC, and now we're at a point where we have frames like Dante and Jade doing some truly heinous shit to this poor video game where you can just kill enemies you don't even know exist yet. Of course CC is going to feel lower value when you can measure performance in KPM at Steel Path Level Cap, ESPECIALLY when they keep using Overguard as just something to add to make gameplay more difficult just for the way it inflates enemy HP and technically 'fights back against the player', ignoring how many frames this completely invalidates, because god forbid a Nidus player get to generate mutation stacks in a Circuit run, you'd really be breaking the meta with that Warframe from 2016.
Basically I'm glad this video is verbalizing the exact feelings I've had for a long time, good stuff
I know basically just reiterating it, but, yeah, this has kinda become a cat and mouse type game, where they try to make the players deal with unique abilities by preventing just soft neutralizing them, but since then the easiest solution then becomes just nuking them just like all the fodder enemies, players stop experiencing those abilities by annihilating them, so they feel need to force higher numbers of them so players have no choice, which just leaves CC lagging even further behind when they cant touch more and more of the percentage of enemies spawning with their abilities, when they function best against those types of special stronger foes, since damage can just wipe out all basic enemies quickly enough
fun fact, most things are still affected by marked for deaths stun for no apparent reason
DE genuinely forgot about that ability lol
Also about defence being time based - DA Mirror Defence (and Survival) have a neat semi-hidden function we could add so players won't feel they sit ducks until timer is over. Going near Mech dispenser you can forcibly spawn Eximus one, killing it reduces timer by 45s.
CoolKid369 giving their non-meta-enslaved opinion on WF? You're about to sadly get jumped, kidnapped and tortured by being forced to watch KnightmareFrame putting PSF on every single frame in existence that doesn't even need it.
I agree with a lot, I don't think CC is dead as well but DE sometimes really discourages it with their choices for the game, but can only hope they can learn, take notes and tweak things to not feel like a chore to deal with.. Sometimes I ask if most of them even play their game at all, I know Pablo does, but the rest?.. I don't think they do very much, Anyways, Stockholm Syndrome is back to 100%, We lose these.
Also I am still mad Mirror Defense was brought back, I wanted another Void Armaggedon in the labs man, mode is a much more fun defense
Well this sure had a…. Magnetic aging
Just to quickly mention this, at 6:28 when you mention Nova's Molecular Prime; the reason it doesn't work on Overguard is because Molecular Prime *only* boosts damage dealt to enemy health, not to Shields or, as you showed, Overguard. Just less of an inconsistency thing and more of a weird ability quirk.
Very well said in my opinion. The argument of having to make every frame a damage frame never really resonated with me. I genuinely hope DE sees this so that we can a more CC related frame in the future.
I also reckon this was both hard to make time wise and toxic subject wise, so I wanted to say thanks for to you for making it.
Cheers you’ve got yourself a new sub.
Thank you, warframe is a pretty special game and videos like these not only are entertaining but also helpful
You know, this was actually the first video I watched of yours . . . I’m gonna be real with you, the amount of time this took to make deserves my subscription alone. Well done and excellent points made (coming from a 10+ year Frost main)
I've been this feeling since the Zariman update about Overguard. Specifically, that it's been a massive mistake across the board. I like the idea of making Eximus more challenging. However, what has happened is that they've just become annoying. Blitz and Toxin are overtuned, and then there's Overguard. If Overguard was just a second health bar with a ton of DR, I think I'd be ok with it, especially with the gear we have now. I'm of the camp that CC should be a direct counter to Overguard, being another way to deal with their abilities. Maybe reduced timers on their incapacitation, but just something. I haven't played Khora since Overguard, just because they just ignore the Strangledome and walk right through to punch me in the mouth. I completely agree with your points on the mission types and how CC affects them. The defense change in particular is an interesting idea, given how that's sorta how mirror defense works. But less travel, and therefore less annoying.
Idk I just feel like Overguard is really what CC is meant for. Fodder are, well, fodder and aren't even really a concern. The important targets that need to be crowd controlled are just immune to it completely right now. Idk. I'm still pounding sand over Veilbreaker
i straight up Quit warframe after the first few weeks of Overgag being added due to how crap it was the decision to make the operator the seemingly intended counter (other then even more damage) while the rework did basically Nothing to improve the kid's power and nerfed them into the dirt with the whole die 4 many times as Op too soon and your frame keels over yeah its a slap in the face the devs that regurgitated it into the game should have been sacked and the update scrapped in my opinion even to this day
me minding my own business playing ultrakill while listening to this in the background.
coolkid at 22:37 suddenly:
You mentioning wanting defense to have a timer instead of waves is interesting because i've been wanting a survival mode that's basically just defense without the defense target (and without air support) so i wanna propose splitting the game modes.
Wave Defense - Defense game mode unchanged but renamed
Timer Defense - Defense game mode with a timer instead of waves (What was suggested in the video)
Wave Survival - Defense game mode without a defense target, for a classic wave survival experience like found in other games
Timer Survival - Survival game mode unchanged but renamed
Another fantastic video and a great direction. So many other creators make reference to these issues, but few sink any real time into fleshing it all out. I felt that there were points were it was obvious that apples were apples, but also felt that there was some space for my own opinion at other points, too.
You are going in some really interesting directions! Thank you :)
the visual spam on the fragmented boss with all those eximus is just too ridiculous...frames drop and it's a miracle I haven't bluescreened on that part yet
severed warden is a great support unit from a player's gameplay perspective
easily identifiable in a crowd, interesting mechanics and three dimensions of movement but not too overbearing, and dispatching them is involved enough to be interesting
I wish more units in warframe were like that lol
i had an idea as i was watching this:
a possible way to make overguard work with CC could be to let overguarded eximus take the full CC, but when you break through overguard, they "break out" and preform their special attack before going back to being CC'd.
my reasoning is that this allows you to CC eximus, but you need to be ready for their attack once overguard breaks.
some issues with this would be the possibility of CCing them again before they get an attack out, but that can be fixed with a simple timer or check. another issue would be implementing it into abilities that knockdown or ragdoll enemies, like Nezha's 4.
I've never played this game before and didn't even know what is was when I clicked on this video out of curiosity.
But I've got to hand it to you. It was a good video. You had me invested in a game I don't know anything about for almost a full hour, and managed to explain everything in a way that I actually understood what you were talking about. Well done sir. Well done. I wish you and the rest of the community luck in getting the CC and OG changes you want
Mark my words. One day DE will fill the screen with 100 Beds of Chaos, all in the name of difficulty.
that part at the end 51:19 "warframe is like a second job" LMAO!!!!!
Simply put, fantastic video. I wish takes in this format and care were more the norm. You did incredible work on this and presented it all beautifully. I really hope this gets seen in full by DE. P.S. funny thing, this is my first video of yours, what a way to discover you! :)
i love it. wow, what an amazing vid. quite nice to watch tbh, and honestly, as long and out there as it was, i think you structured it quite nicely : D . Thanks for it big boss
Love the vid furry man, keep it up. I love this new wave of WF creators (not really new but starting to be seen) that aren't toxic and overly detrimental to the community that are supposed to be creating a healthy space of discourse rather than shutting down opinions and preferences.
Your style is unique and authentic with a good vibe. I feel like I am allergic to negativity and it's great to have someone lightly deliver possible changes versus the usual beat down. Stay cool CoolKid!!!
For CC in ESO and in Survival, I think a good way to make CC useful would be to examine Circulus. Having Thrax alive while trying to farm Voruna drains your life support faster, and the reward timer pauses until they are eliminated. In order to make this work for ESO and normal Survival, there could be a pseudo-defense target (or more, depending on squad size). If enemies are interacting with the target, life support/efficiency drains faster. I don't think the timer pause is necessary in this case, but using CC to help keep enemies away from the target means CC is viable and so are damage frames, since you can just clear them. Add on a bubble like Duviri Jackal that prevents outside damage/abilities, and you are even penalized for missing enemies and allowing them to weaken you.
Not a perfect solution, but brainstorming ideas amongst the community could be a path to an answer.
If nothing else, it could make it where squad effectiveness can't just be tracked with damage output percent. I don't like playing CC frames because they don't feel useful. I'd love to get excited to see Limbo in Duviri, knowing if nobody else, I will feel good about picking that frame.
Maybe add a mission type called "saqueo"(sorry dont remember the english word for it) where one ally loots the enemy Warehouse and we have to gatekeeper the enemies out and it is an endless mission. That would make cc frames useful as they keep the normal enemies from leaking, the damages frames could focus in the eximus and heavy enemies. And finally to add some spice and make you roam a bit around the map, there could appear objectives like "go to X place and intercept the demolition team" or "go to X place and stop the enemy from poisoning the air" etc.
Yes ! Absolutely yes to all of this ! I thought I was subscribed before, was not, fixed that mistake, what a great video I just watched thank you for making it :DD
Title: DE doesn't understand overguard
Me: I also don't understand overguard
Marge Simpson: I just think it's neat
I'm about 1/4 through this video and without commenting on the topic (which I think you're covering really well so far) I just wanna express just how well the ambient Warframe soundtrack works for this kind of video. Super chill
I feel like giving demolishers status reduction instead of immunity is an extremely obvious way to balance cc around them. They are, after all, enemies that are trying to get close to an objective, so it's weird how the only way to stop them is not to impair them in any way but to kill them within the time it takes them to reach it.
glad more videos like these are being made, it increases the chance of de noticing stuff like this and doing something to change it
Funnily, I made my own video covering how Disruption is effectively just endless capture. And how the timer exists but seemed to just be a leftover of the earlier concept they originally showed on dev stream. And the modifiers (other then increased enemy speed) effectively don’t matter until level cap runs and only for a tiny window before it’s just another grain if sand in the instakill pile.
Also yeah, capture targets are wackily inconsistent. Some can’t be hit by powers at all, some are CC immune, some proc status some don’t. Demolysts aren’t totally absent from the inconsistencies either (often retaining weird quirks of their base unit)
Going back to that first point about Disruption changing from announcement to live. Overguard kind of suffers from the same general DE pattern. A concept is presented on the dev stream, seems fine. But the version we finally get has been altered without any further embellishment on why (ie Ancient Healers doing Overguard instead of uh, healing. And also as a result weirdly doubling on the Disruptors aura and purpose).
Then down the line we get stuff being recycled and reused out of its mechanical context. Suddenly Overguard becomes more common and a difficulty pad instead of a unique mechanic. DuViri random loadouts get pulled out of their supporting architecture also as alleged difficulty (they aren’t because you can as easily roll Revenant and a Torid as Limbo and a Stug, there is no intent there). Some of that is budget and so on, but it’s seeming like stuff is thrown at a wall hoping it’ll stick then by deliberate intent.
I would give some special mention. That new Zariman enemies Murmur, and even the Amalgams and more recent Sentients also don’t pair well with the eximus treatment to begin with. Most already had their unique gimmicks and the doubly up just creates a lot of noise.
Steel Path (and the various modes using derivations of it) was in itself part of this conceptual drift.
A niche set of players wanted a level selection toggle so they could do their endurance stuff without sitting through hours of nothing. Fair enough, but the game structure didn’t support it so Steel path was born. With some token cosmetic bragging pieces and boosted, but no exclusive rewards. And DE said that was it and the game would never balance around it. That lasted roughly a year.
Then we started getting a lot of stuff like weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, archon shards, Incarnons, exclusive arcanes. Steel Path suddenly became mandatory to engage with if you wanted to experience the full breadth of the game’s systems. Some of these were placed in Steel Path, some were added to smooth the difficulty off of steel path. Nonetheless it escaped from this concession to a niche challenge to having tendrils sink all throughout the game.
And consequently that generated even more power creep (like the 8 billion available armour strips, which was helpful, but not necessary until dealing with SP armour) and other such things. Then DE cranked the enemies higher to compensate to that. Except CC exists outside of that equation and also (mostly) scaled to increased numbers as well, so they had to cut CC to further this new difficulty niche they escalated themselves into by putting effort into what was meant to be a throwaway novelty mode.
My idea to change overguard is to make enemy partially immune to CC. Abilities that pull them enemies together would pull them slowly, and they can break free depending on their weight class. Sleep, blind, mind control would have a chance to not take effect.
i think there is a lot of great analysis, suggestions, and reflections here. hopefully someone at DE sees this and thinks the same and maybe they will consider improving it in whatever way they see fit
This Video wouldn't Exist if Such a Thing Was Possible. Triburos made one Earlier this Year too... It's a Good way of Collectively Venting our Frustration over DE's design Choices but not much Else.
It's not like they Killed CC by Accident... It was Very Slow and very Deliberate. All feedback about it went Ignored.
@@lookalike4805 its a shame triburos and his video are both garbage
@theurbanreanimator7244
Il just leave you to Deal with your Issues. 👀
9:20 My only complaint with this comment, and I only have it because I love Limbo, is that some CC heavy frames, Like Limbo, are also less durable. I have always found Limbo a very flimsy frame, but this was saved by the fact that I could, freeze the world and regain my shields. Now that I have a enemy type that not only dishes out a large amount of damage, but also denies me that survivablitly...
18:02 it was even worse in a full squad because of the increased enemy spawns. I'm not over exaggerating when I say that you could not see ANYTHING on your screen because it was full of particle effects vomit. I had to resort to using the enemy health bars for aiming my weapons and abilities. And killing the Eximus units was useless because they were all back up in a few seconds.
Yeah, solo was bad enough, but full squads were actually nauseating. I mostly play Duviri solo but the few times I didn't it was stomach turning lol
Very good video. Very well done! I loved it. Thank you so much for making it
Well said; I've had similar thoughts on these potential changes.
Frequent Nyx player
Making defence time based reminded me of when i once solod a defence archon hunt and the enemies were too tough for me but i had khora, so while i or the defence target didnt die, the whole 10 waves took about 30 minutes to do since i didn't have the damage at the time
Deadlock protocol ambience always goes hard.
Excellent video reviewing the principles of what defines CC and the issues that Overguard has brought
I’d always had the idea of a Loki Rework not even being a full rework anyway.
Moreso a change to his passive.
My idea for Loki specifically was more so the status reduction thing in a similar vein to Hydroid’s new passive.
Any CC ability cast by Loki affects enemies at full potency even through Overguard.
This also tags an enemy with a mark that allows other frames to affect overguarded enemies with CC abilities at a diminished potency, maybe 1/4-1/2 the power/duration.
More so leaning into his role as the trickster.
This would also apply to any ability subsumed onto him which may be quite powerful, but Loki needs something.
Edit: one enemy everyone always seems to forget is the nullifier bubble thing that gives an enemy a nullifier bubble in the Orb Valis.
Ever have one of them put one onto the mobs that lunge at you at Mach 3 on the Orb Valis? Yea, basically an immediate ‘F your abilities’.
I totally forgot about Terra Shield Drones! Yeah, those things are dumb lol
I also think Loki needing a full on rework is definitely not urgently needed, mostly his passive and 4 deserve help, though I still think it would be good for him overall.
nullifiers are the bane of my limbo's existance :(
i really like your idea of a rework for them
Extremely well done!
Loved the video. I hope more people watch this.
Honestly this video is really great video about cc
I remember literally having a dude call me a slur because I said the dante nerf was justified. I had been playing since beta on and off and that was the second that something similar to that had happened in about 2k total hours
I see your longform video, and respond in kind. I apologize in advance, but at the same time, your critique of the situation and offer of ideas got me thinking, and I enjoyed the video a ton. So, here we go.
I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be more interaction with overguard besides "Haha mesa 4 go brr" or "Incarnon [Name your crit weapon of choice here] brr" because if you can resolve overguard the same way you resolve big amounts of health in the "Numbers go up" style, then it's just DPS over actually doing your work of trying to resolve the problem intelligently or put any use to what you have.
I think CC abilities should definitely have some kind of effect. Vortex, Tornado, and other pulling effects should still work, but not ragdoll the target (Nautilus' cordon and Tether Grenades on the Penta launcher is a great example of this). This allows you to keep them in certain areas a bit more yes, but they can eventually break out (much like Sentients can adapt to damage types) while having overguard if allowed stay there too long. This lets you control the tide of battle for a time and single out or pull away dangerous enemies out of large groups to focus on them.
Abilities that slow might instead weaken the effects of the overguard ability user, as if it slows the flow of their power and affects the potency making reduced output, to a cap of course. This means any slowing effect, even cold procs, provides a means of granting breathing room and giving a better fighting chance.
Abilities that lift or hold enemies (Bastile, aegis storm, stomp, and so on.) would actively provide an effect that enhances that on enemies they support. This makes not only the enemies they support more visible (perhaps energy glow) but highlights the target that's causing trouble even more than before. While yes, they are already visible, if you have a horde of enemies blocking your sight, seeing some small group oddly glow tells you "hey there's an eximus over there" better when you're in the thick of it and don't always have the time to pick out that one eximus.
Abilities that blind might be able to for a very fixed duration disrupt an active in use ability. Arctic Eximus bubbles, toxic eximus fields, arson eximus shockwaves, and so on. Give it a bit of counterplay where you're not stopping the eximus themselves, but battling the eximus ability against ability to give, again, a moment of breathing room. You still have to fight them, but you can at least stop a group of eximus from filling up the field with all their abilities at once and end up getting piled on. Perhaps about 1-2 seconds since you are speedy movement ninja. Banshee specifically using Silence is an enhanced version of this, up to 4 seconds.
Look at each ability, and discover how you could change it's effects on overguard. Make it a fight where you get advantage with SOMETHING, rather than trying to just say "No CC, only damage. Go Brr or go home."
As for Operator interaction, Eximus units should deal significantly less damage to the operator, and the operator does increased damage to the eximus' overguard specifically. Outright nuking the shield shouldn't be possible, but make it a reason why someone else has to keep the eximus pinned with different cc and provide cover fire against normal units who can do more damage to the operator. Make it feel like it takes at least some form of intelligence and team effort, while someone else helps crack the shield. IF all it takes is one operator ability or trick to shatter it, then the ideal of defeating overguard is push operator button, smack once, go back, return to norm. There's no need to think about their abilities, just know they exist.
In my opinion, challenge exists best when you need tactics and strategy to at least some degree, not when the only solution is to min max your damage output so everything dies and then realize how shallow the meaning of overguard really becomes at that point. Again, If all you need is number go up, and a single gimmick invalidates the entirety of several warframes, you're just making people choose the Most Effective Tactic Available. Damage.
Oh, and also:
Ancient healers (and corrupted healers) need to function closer to what the warden does. Let tendrils of glowing mass in the style of infested latch onto a limited number of other non eximus enemies, and then make it so they are more visible. Also, limit active numbers of them as they should be treated similarly to the warden or maybe a little more by just a little bit. Wardens are a good idea executed well. Ancient healers feel like the prototype effort of wardens that need a proper rework.
I thought I was gonna spend like 5 mins listening to this video and then I stayed all the way to the end. Good content, just commenting to say thank you🤙
Overguard, scaling, how game mechanics work and interact, what the meta is, why the meta is, and what fun is-among many other things, which DE does not understand
Fantastic coverage and superb analysis of the topic. I appreciate you're explanation of making sure the design framework is not a limitation of the containing content - as in - rather than create ways to counter the issued system, to actually analyze the system that has issues itself.
Honestly i love the laat part of the video discussing the community. Because I feel like I have contributed to the emotionally fueled rants that cause such strifes in the here.
Granted im like a nobody so maybe its not that much at all, but I agree that we need to take a more level headed approach and understand that DE is so insanely forgiving and interactive with the community and we may always take that for granted. There will still be thibgds de may do in the future thatll piss us off but I never want to go as far as insulting or belittling them again.
Love the use of Metroid music in various parts of the video :)
Oh, and also great discussion XD