yo did you read the whole thing? Don't you think it's a bit sus that the autobots are somehow clueless of the suffering of the bots who'd later become the decepticons?
I always thought that it was kind of screwed up for Autobots who came from middle class to think that the door class is revolting against upper classes for being oppressed are evil an Autobots are way too bias on every turn describing decepticons as evil while they were not
@@deleteduser3455 it sounds like Megatron surrounded himself with sycophants who did not understand the plight of the unnamed enslaved cast. Bit of a tale as old as time. The Netflix documentary Nazis on drugs talks about Hitler's drug use. There are a lot of parallels. German tank troops took meth pills to outlast their opponents during blitzkrieg.
What IDW Transformers line was able to potray was that neither side is good or evil. That in the end Cybertronians are just a species at war and they are often hated by other races for their long drawn out war. Some races even avoid Cybertronians like a plague. And that one bit where Optimus chose exile after the war was over? His Autobots thought that Optimus was making a noble sacrifice but Optimus in his inner dialogue said that he was just tired of being responsible for others and leading an entire faction. This exile is his freedom.
Honestly, now more than ever I want an adult swim show about the dystopian life on Cybertron. If Transformers Prime taught us anything, is that darker Transformers stories CAN work and this universe and it's characters CAN be much more than just toys sold to children. I firmly believe that a dark Transformers series could work and if Hasbro is smart they'll realize the potential.
@@beltfed4624 pretty sure you were asking the other person, but figured I'd chime in! I had some problems but overall I really enjoyed it. Heavy on the space opera approach but definitely made the action feel that much sweeter, especially in Kingdom. And despite certain things in Kingdom that I LOATHED... there were equal parts really awesome moments like the whole Ark transformation and the Dinobot, Black Arachnia, and Starscream team-up, plus so much more character development for Starscream
I want a war for cybertron movie Micheal bay style preferably I didn’t like the age of extinction or the last knight but the way the story is going we might get more cybertron scenes as well as war flashbacks but it’s not the actual war it’s self
Class warfare, poverty, revolution, drug addiction, obsession, depression, uncomfortable truths of self preservation. This tosses my childhood for a loop.
The entire part of the video with blackout was just genuinely sad. This bot who is on the brink of death is crying out for help, and a bot of the other faction hears his cries. The Autobot asks if there are anymore “bad guys” around, to which Blackout replies that they’re dead. Slug is basically stereotyping the “bad guys” as people who kill innocents and are not allowed to have friends because they’re “bad guys”.
Thats exactly the point, we can't forget this is a kid show, so it must be clear who are the good guys and the bad ones, but this still is a great adaptation, because the decepticons shouldn't be evil, they want exactly the same as the Autobots but their methods are harsher, yet their goal is peace and a non corrupted planet, Megatron has some principiles, and Dreadwing literally acts with the same honor as an Autobot, that's the reason Megatron dismanteled the decepticons on Prime's ending, because he saw what a Tyrant he became and Knew the autobots were right, because originally Decepticons and Autobots were the same.
@@Justarandomreviwer Starscream is a slimy coward (and a bit of a douchebag) and he always finds a way to betray our leader Megatron, be it with a bomb (in Transformers: Animated), flying away constantly and making clones (in Transformers: Animated and Transformers: Prime) and even going so far as to join the Autobots (in Transformers: Armada). *Yes, you read that correctly.*
Question: if Optimus did somehow change his autobot symbol to something else just before the war start, do you think that Megatron that make thought Optimus's Autobots were a different faction or just a re-skin of the council raising back to power?? And for once, I just want the decepticons to win and be the good guys, and no, Im not meaning like Shatter Universe.
Your missing 2 points. 1 the criminal element taking advantage of the confusion. Megatron was forced to align with them because they were seen as providing necessary supplys. However this does not make a criminal element Saintly. It only taints the revolutionary cause of Decepticons. 2 as revolution progressed, Decepticons do take power, and therefore are responsible for everything that happens on Cybertron as the new leaders. Megatron turns his vision of freeing oppression, outward to sentience species in space. Now it's ceases to be a freedom fighting cause, of one world, to a war of conquest throughout the Galaxy, which changes its nature, and the nature of Megatron. You cannot use a fictional story to justify or indict revolutionary causes in world history on our real planet, as fiction it can only reflect poorly what has actually happened in our real history. As a fictional story, Megatron is a villain, Optimus prime is cast as the hero, that is how it has been written that is how it shall always be. I do get tired of children trying to save and promote monsters and vilify our heroes. Both those that are real and imaginary. Fiction is fiction and is as it has been written, people are only people and we have both light and dark within us. " Only human".
It really is a shame the animated shows don't dive deep into the history of the two sides. I never really liked the black and white way most of the shows almost always ran with. Shows like the the war for cybertron while it didn't go deep at least didn't show megatron as pure evil. He had to make a call that would doom a town or something, he went there to visit and the bots were happy and honored. He went there knowing he had to shut the place down and he was clearly guilt ridden about it. I don't read the comics, i just don't know where to even start but i see vids about it from time to time and megatron is now an autobot. It seems he came to his senses.
if i remember correctly, there were a few comics where Optimus himself has stated that he agreed with the reasons for why the decepticons started their war. Even willing to try and further their original cause. It was when Megatron basically went all ape-shit, going from freedom fighter to dictator in the making. I think in one comic, Optimus even pointed this out to Megatron that he was basically doing what he was originally trying to fight against.
Optimus also isn't in charge of anything, the dude is just a random military leader. There have also been plotlines involving him coming into contact with higher ups and being overridden and chastised for his actions Megatron might be going Abit far, but when push comes to shove there's also not another option when fighting the autobots
@@death299 yeah prime was under sentiel and zeta and then emirate, alpha trion and autobot high command or the council Megs seems to answer to nobody he was supreme commander and it seemed like the decepticon high council was under him and only have orders or selected other leaders when Megatron was dead or offline
@@chrisedwards3214 didn't say megatron had to answer to anyway. But one is in the middle of a rebellion with an enemy force thst dosen't view lesser bots as having rights And thebother is the ruling class that spent untold centuries forcing orhers under boot The nature of rebellion and resistance forces is there's no such thing as a proper ruler, there's an individual considered the defacto and capable of ordering anyone around, but they're also not obeyed and did to size and communication their orders are more suggestions You see this throughout the various shows when Megatron has to actively use threats of force to get others to obey him
The irony of becoming the very monster they sought to destroy. But yet once you get a taste of the power that the said monsters use, it becomes addicting
@@adawnicusautocon the decpticons for all their problems arise still nowhere near as bad as the autobots were it still are. In most scenerios the only reason the decpticons are even on earth is purely because the autobots brought the war to this and many other worlds And both sides want the same for earth, control of it's resources, we just follow a commander that's half decent
That is usually how it goes. Many fantasy villainy is not even necessarily evil. Just morally grey, and the unfortunate impact of their actions is being told through the protagonist’s POV, which make it seem as evil. In real world, morally grey things generally happen. And people seem to not get that. People may understand that, but they don’t ever get it
I've tried to think of a TFP Breakdown fic where he joins the Autobots, but I honestly can't really think of anything that would be interesting and different enough from the actual show and still be realistic to what would actually change. Although if Breakdown DID survive, the episodes "Human Factor", "Thirst", "Minus One", "Persuasion", "Synthesis" and "Deadlock", and the "Predacons Rising" movie would not happen. Specifically Breakdown's death is what causes Cybertron to be restored. So if Breakdown survives and joins the Autobots, the war would continue, and I'm not really sure how to continue it from then on, and even if the "post-show" would offer more interest, the majority of the story still would not be very interesting. I really would love to write a Breakdown story where he joins the Autobots, but unlike my Autobot!Starscream story where I ended up making lore mistakes anyway so it turned out fine, I don't wanna repeat that in the Breakdown story, so I'm kinda lost on how to write one and make it good... I DO know how to write a fic on the show where Arcee kills Starscream in "Partners", as that would change the show enough to make it interesting, plus it would add in a potential ghost to haunt everyone. Sigh. I have much easier writing Starscream than other characters. I just wish I knew his past life, other than his high caste status and military commander occupation. I have to make up my own backstory for him, which is most likely wrong, but I hope it will at least turn out somewhat plausible, for the general idea of his life if anything. Sorry, I'm blabbering now. It's late, I'm tired and a bit hyper on sugar.
I don't know if it's ever mentioned, but I think it would be really cool if part of the reason Megatron resorted to Dark Energon was because he resented Primus in a way, for creating him aimless and nameless in a society that cared nothing for him. It would add some depth to the decision instead of just making it space crack
Or rather resentment for being the progenitor (at least namesake/ justification for power) of the very caste system (which was supported by the Primes) that had enslaved Megatron, and millions more for eons.
Psalm 82:6 King James Version I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High John 10:34 “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” If in fact the Deceptions were slaves, then as illustrated in Deuteronomy 28, the Hebrews were punished and slavery was the result of that punishment. This story sounds remarkably familiar. The question begs, who are the real Hebrews? Scripture refers to them as, " The hidden ones."
"The senate carved up the planets population by notions of utility. Your form determined your function, your function determined your fate. Someone had to say no, someone had to say enough" - Megatron
@@mikaelafefrias1880 The hell did you think I was saying you dolt? I never disagreed with you or presented argument, I simply stated that there ARE people who see Megatron as in the wrong regardless of circumstances. Learn to read and stop pointlessly starting fights over things that haven't at all been said.
@@mikaelafefrias1880 Sorry for being rude but for the love of god at least actually *read* what you're responding to. You just went on a whole tirade on me for no reason.
Yeah, now we get to see & learn why Megatron became the way he is I wish they made this into a life movie but like everything else Hollywood will just f$%k it up.
Hollywood is one giant entitled safe space needing hive mind with no creativity or independent thought left over, so it doesn’t matter who tried to Make it . It’d be awful TT
Given how corrupt he becomes in every iteration, I think Megatron should heed the words of Obi-Wan when he says, "You have become the very thing you swore to destroy."
The way i saw Optimus looking into cybertron files and the flaws implied he at least mature and thought he could fix things and work things out as it like trying to go into someone world understanding and fix things hoping to help someone who wants to do right only to realize nothing was going to get better
It's one of the reasons IDW's Megatron is so fascinating. He _realises_ how much of a monster he became, and made an effort to stop. But by then, it was too little, too late. There was no redeeming him, no way to forgive him, no matter how hard he tried. I'm hoping Earthspark also goes deeper into this idea of a Megatron who renounced his ways. The Earthbound Autobots and Terrans seem to respect him, while his Decepticon companions see him as traitor who sold them out. There's the hint that the Decepticons became so interested in conquest, that they not only forgot what they were fighting for, but after the war ended, it seems they failed to achieve what they even started the war for.
Sadly, the decepticons were led by a gladiator that only knew death fights. He was smart and opened peoples eyes, but no one was their to keep him from crossing any lines. So when he started do things like drugging up, no one stopped his slow descent from spokesman of equality and change to mad bloodthirsty tyrant.
Which is why I don't understand why Kumquat refuses to call a spade a spade and point out the fact Megatron is objectively immoral and in the wrong. He latches onto the good guy fallacy that the Autobots must be inherently evil since they were victims of fortunate circumstances and the Decepticons were not. In reality, it's simply unluckiness
@@Mr_Mistah Eh? Maybe naivety? Or lack of understanding? His example of the French Revolution threw me off; it wasn't 'the poor' doing the rebelling, it was the middle-class who were lumped into the peasantry, and they lead the charge. (Though, I did a have ghoulish 'what if' fan-ficition story pop into my head, where Optimus started the Cybertronian version of the French Revolution. Muh brain works in odd ways.)
Its the age old story of the revolutionary leader becoming the very thing he swore to destroy. It happens every time. Every noble cause gets corrupted. Every good thing rots. Every high ideal betrays itself.
The downside of the decepticons was that they made a gladiator who couldn't lead into their leader, rather than just their spokesperson. A guy who quite literally only knows fighting because that's the one thing that got him anything in his life, and his logic of "might makes right" made him resort to dark energon, which turned into the crazed madman he's most known as.
I’ve literally said this for years. The decepticons are literally the definition of die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain. Decepticons were heroes fighting to end oppression. But after Millions of years fighting a war where they had to resort to immoral tactics to achieve a moral cause, they got lost in there actions and became the oppressors they sought to destroy.
They had to resort to immoral tactics to achieve moral goals? Meh. One of them just used this as a very convenient "excuse" to commit mass crimes. For this one con, whose name I shall not say, the cause was lost to his urge and will to commit crimes. Or, even worse, it was just a pretext, a decoy he never cared about at all. Pretty much like the hoodlums in the Purge. They use pretexts of justice, equality, etc. to commit crimes of the worst sorts. The ideals they mention are nothing but convenient buzzwords to cover their own crimes and avoid taking responsibilities.
@@Briselance and what con on you referring to? Obviously each side has its good and bad members. But it doesn’t change the fact that their cause was just, and their leaders were once good.
Quit your whining, if Megatron was a bad guy why more than half of cybertron was willing to follow him, Autobots were murdering oppressors they had it coming.
Slaughter of slaves at Kaon (Before the Great War) Soundwave: How many lives are worth a cause ? Megatron: The one to save twice as many, to free and uplift twice as many.
@@-Tarn-1212 It's a dangerous point to be willing to sacrifice so many, even if you think the end result is positive...though it ultimately depends on if the sacrificed are willing sacrifices or not.
@@SubduedRadical opposing authoritarianism at all costs is absolutely necessary to the fundaments of a free and open society. Sacrifice is required to live a life not bound and forced to your knees.
@@randomanun4278 Yes, but it has to be YOUR sacrifice. You can't sacrifice OTHER PEOPLE who are NOT YOU to achieve it. Not to mention, even when we're talking willing soldiers for your cause (who presumably understand there's a risk of death) that there's a limit to how many you can sacrifice before you run out. If you kill 99% of your members, was the result worth it? The bigger issue is: Was the violence and sacrifice even necessary? Sometimes it's not. And even IF we get to cases where it's warranted and necessary to fight - "He will triumph who knows when to fight...and when not to fight." Pyrrhic victories in battles often lead to losing wars...
@@SubduedRadical if the result is shirking the yolk of tyranny so that the future generations and or current generation, can live in a free society, every single person who does fall for the cause is a shining example of someone who just wanted to be left the fuck alone and fought for that right against a oppressive for e who sought more power and more control. weak men and women casually accept encroaching tyrannical over reach and ignore it, deeming this right or that a frivolity that they deem too troublesome to quarrel over. ask a first generation immigrant from any brutal oppressive nation if every single right is a right worth fighting over... matter of fact seek out survivors of the cultural revolution or ask someone who remembers Berlin pre regan... or literally any pan asiatic country that borders China if a right is worth fighting over... I'll wait. Know why? Because even if you try to mount thr moral high horse of well they need to be willing to sacrifice.... if they and you fucking fail against that oppressive force everyone now sacrifices. All hope is lost and you will spend the entirety of the rest of your life wondering if you had just fucking fought back where would the nation or world be as a result?
Also puts into perspective that Megatron maybe wasn't lying to Orion when he asked why they were called 'Decepticons' Megatron says: "Another Autobot scare tactic, the name was meant to demonize us...instead, we wear it as a badge of honor. For if speaking the truth is deception, then we are gladly guilty" And if the Decepticons was once a just and noble cause, as was Megatron once, then that would make sense
Soundwave is still THE most badass character out of all, without saying a word. The only char who can be even more badass is Shockwave, but he didn't have the screentime to shine, unlike Soundwave. And both of them are Decepticons
Honestly, I feel like the only important things on exodus is just chapter 1-first half of 12. The rest of the novel can be skipped, since chapter 12-15 are adapted into a prequel comic for the war for cybertron game and chapters 16 - 39 of the novel mostly adapts the war for cybertron video game, so... yeah. Just my opinion tho.
The twilight can refer it to being the end of a golden age due to the stagnation, inequality, and corruption that seeped in as well as Cybertron closing itself off. Ratchet is also a biased perspective who wasn't in the pits.
Another point is that Bumblebee, (probably) Smokescreen, and all the other last-generation bots are technically child soldiers. And which faction did they all end up joining?
Optimus calling himself a prime must have stung really bad since the previous primes were the absolute worst. It would be like re-naming himself Optimus Hitler. To the decepticons 'prime' was a bad, bad word. That's why there was the one scene where one of the two decepticon brothers shouts *I WILL NEVER SERVE A PRIME*
wait how were the primes the same as hitler, bad shit happens in every civilisation but remember megatron also wanted to be called prime and between the to megatron acts way worse than a nazi, hell he tortures a autobot and then infects him with a zombie virus and uses he's corpes as a doomsday weapon to eradicate the autobots.... he's a super nazi
@@damonknight2494 To be fair they made sure the Cast system was law, and basically allowed the life or death gladiatorial matches to keep people quiet even though it was illegal. Some of the primes were just greedy to begin with. The cast system just made lower class bots feel worthless and replaceable. Especially when they die just to make a simple product for the upper class. Prevented exploration of the stars. Had their version of the secret police which also tortured bots, brainwash them, and made themselves above the law. So yeah to lower the cast bot and even Optimus himself before the war in the comics, being called a prime wasn't exactly a name that was respectable. Feared yes, respected no. As for wanting to be called one, yeah no that statement came from Ratchet. which according to the books and comics is wrong so. But the zombie thing yeah no I can't defend that. Especially since that virus comes from unicron blood. (Aka robot devil)
@@T-Trux Both had a part to play in the system, with one setting the laws and the other enforcing them and not caring about life until it's made his problem. But they're even those who funded who sided with Megatron just to profit off the war, look at the transformers Megatron origins comic to know who.
I think it was the best choice, Optimus represents a change, a new Prime who does care about their ppl, a new meaning for the name prime... And then he became a psychopath too XD
"I now know the true meaning of oppression. And thus, have lost my taste in inflicting it." The last line of Megatron in Transformers Prime the movie, Predacons Rising.
@@someguy3276 I've always interpreted that line as him remembering what it's like to be under the foot of tyranny rather than sitting at the throne of it. It helps sell just how much he'd lost his way that he forgot it.
Just imagine. You're a slave, you make your way all the way to be able to speak to the council And the council listens and picks a guy who has never seen the suffering and tragedy that's happening. I'd not be surprised if it came over as if the high council picked Orion only because he's no slave.
@@dreademperor2094 well neather I'd try to get optimus and megatron somewhere far from both teams, use the phychic patch on them with rung to help cornected to, show optimus the real life of low caste then finally create a mind couch, make them put their butts down and have rung talk some sents into megatron about his hurting and fix his and optimus's brotherly bound. But mostly I'd be telling megatron the dark secrerts of what the council been doing and showing optimus. Look for my theories.
Shit, I like to think its a legit business model. I wager the reason Vivziepop is so successful with Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel is because the studio is also selling a lot of merch.
No not necessarily during the war for cybertron both decepticons and autobots where at a stalemate and the decepticons mainly Megatron couldn't stand seeing more die so he ordered his ship to ram threw one of cybertrons moons to take the dark energon but force however autobot air commandeer Starscream was waiting for them when Starscream saw that Megatron could handle the power of dark energon Starscream switched sides during the transformers war for cybertron show it was the same story the decepticons started off as the good guys the war in the show tho was basically over with a decepticon victory but the remaining autobots didn't stand down Megatron was afraid the remaining autobots would one day overthrow the decepticon government so he went searching for the all spark to eliminate the autobots and turn there sparks into mindless slaves with the all spark which is what Megatron did in transformers rise of the dark spark
@@Steve-zc9ht not going to lie, I'd wish rise of the dark spark had better writing because I like the idea of Megatron trying to win the war that doesn't results in trying to kill everyone
@@blueink-2230 same in transformers war for cybertron show tho I guess at first the decepticons won however Megatron become so paranoid with the remaining autobots in hiding that he wanted to use the all spark to reformat them into mindless decepticon slaves
@@Steve-zc9ht honestly I still don't know why Optimums didn't want to accept the truths Megatron offered. Like, was it like the wfc game where where he said leave or die. Or was it like a regular piece treaty?
@@blueink-2230 it's because during this time Megatron lost his mind what Megatron wanted was to enslave cybertron again there was this one line in the show that's vary interesting basically this is what happened Megatron: "I won't let you take the all spark of cybertron you will kill us all" Optimus: and I won't let you enslave it again" That was a vary powerful line in the show there was another line from scorpionock as well he said this. Scorpionock: "I am the last of my kind we where enslaved and killed by the Quintessons and you Megatron are just like a Quintesson you became the exact thing you are fighting against" That's a summary of what Scorpionock said to Megatron when he found out Megatron was a gladiator. This is why optimus didn't except his deal Optimus said cybertron needs freedom megatron was gonna uses the all spark to turn every non decepticons including non aligned cybertronians like bumblebee ratchet sound blaster etc into his slaves
Aligned Megatron was and always will be my favorite Transformers character. He is a perfect tragic villain that wanted to do something good, but his upbringing and inner bitterness corrupted him. I feel like if Orion tried to argue that Megatron IS a Prime material to the council and tried to show him better ways than violence then he could turn out to be a GREAT leader. After all other Primes were not exactly great either with Liege Maximo and Prima being Prime (hehe) examples of that. And I think that's what makes this Megatron so interesting to me, that he CAN be as good as Optimus, he just needed to be guided and helped to overcome his rage. While at the end of the day Megatron ended up like he did, I will not stop believing that he by all means could be a Prime.
So what you’re saying is, Optimus prime didn’t know he had privilege, and never was aware of that? Also because of his more comfortable upbringing, he had much less of a host of debilitating mental health issues that would lead to violent anger and rage? Sounds realistic
I feel like Optimus was genuine in his beliefs about Cybertron’s corrupt government, but he was naive in thinking that everyone felt the same way as him. Especially since he was born in a higher class, so he wouldn’t know how the people in the slums feel.
Just like real life no side is the “good” side, it’s complicated and nuanced. I’m surprised that a show I watched when I was younger has such complex lore.
@@vidard9863 Really I guess but were they really re-writes? I am new to transformers I got into them in 2017 and then got into them again in 2021 so I wouldn't know. I thought they were always there. The original Descepticon cause and all.
as i recall, and to be fair i wasn't big into them, as a kid the descepticons basically just wanted to rule over everyone, and occasionally eliminate human life, just for not being machines. but they were basically toy advertising during the cold war, so they did occasionally spout some marxist/socialist ideals, but they made it clear they intended to be in charge of the future world and it would not be pleasant for anyone who disagreed with them. meanwhile the auto bots where basically perfect individualists being chased down by space notC (sound it out) decepticons... that might actually be the difference though. my generation understood that a government that took the power necessary to "make it right" was going to be oppressively authoritarian, any one who wanted a new world order imagines themselves on top, and people who focus on injustices, and not on practical ways to make the future better, would commit greater injustices if they were given the opportunity. so perhaps the seeds may have been there if you squint just right, but it was obvious to elementary students that descepticons where in all ways the bad guys on a collective scale, even if as individuals, who happened to be bad, they had some relatable struggles.
@@vidard9863 I agree with you on your take, alot of people have proven that they are no better than the tyrants who ruled them. Thanks for explaining it all to me.
I love how more recent versions of Decepticons have layers to them. Megatron isn't just evil for the sake of being evil. He was a slave that struggled daily to survive becoming stronger but also filling with anger. I'm glad this was a detail the Netflix series kept in about him. And shows he's not always wrong. Transformers were dying out because of the war so he tried to find a way to end it with the All-Spark. A fucked way but still a way to end the fighting. And Optimus actually makes it worse all but destroying their planet by sending the All-Spark off planet even got the bot he loved killed by doing that. Even having other Autobots call him out calling him a murderer for his actions. Which really hammers home how bad his decision was when you think about it.
Optimus Prime's decisions to send the All Spark away wasn't a bad one. It doesn't matter how justified one thinks they are in the name of justice and equality, trying to be God and force individuals to take on your kind of thinking or brainwashing them doesn't make you the more righteous side. Optimus did not destroy cybertron either it was already on its way to dying and don't ignore the fact that Megatron was already using experiments on Cybertron's core corrupting. The All Spark was going to die if it had remained on Cybertron any longer. The All Spark is a power that created life on the basis that all life is equal, it was the choice of its creations to create sides and divisions. Optimus Prime knew this and sent the All Spark away to not only prevent newly born cybertronians from becoming slaves of the Decepticon cause, but to prevent newborns from enduring the current suffering that was the Great War. Of course there was a cost of sending away the All Spark, new life would no longer be born, energon would become scarce, and cybertron staying alive to behold its inhabitants would no longer be able to. Megatron's cause at the time was justifiable and understandable, but trying to become a God to force innocent soon to be born individuals to think like you without giving them a choice is still wrong. I'm not saying your wrong and I agree, but I don't agree with the newer iterations of Optimus Prime portraying him as some sort of lesser evil just because he made the difficult choice to save future generations. I get its not all black and white, but it's not all gray either.
season 2 of gen1 transformers explains the source of the war, and a lot of the origin of the cybertronians, prime is a ret-con of the original origin story. It also some up again for the Unicron planet eater arc, the bots find pieces of Cybertrons past on worlds that Unicron is about to eat, one one example is in the trash heaps of Junkion the trash planet. So, I will agree to disagree, because Kumquat is correct with their lore from the Prime series, but be aware that is not the only set of lore, on that subject.
As an Autobot fan, I definitely agree that both sides are flawed. The Autobots have some people that are questionable (Sunder) and the Decepticons have some people that straight-up stray from being the cause that helps people (Starscream). Even the leaders of said causes have their flaws. As was said, the Decepticons started off good but drifted away. Videos like this definitely made me understand that now. Thanks, EK! Edit: Holy scrap. Over 200 likes! That's surprising! O.O
But there was an episode where Rodimus Prime wanted the Matrix of Leadership removed. He appealed to the council. Primus himself said "The holder of the Matrix is not infallible". It means that while the highest ideal of the Cybertronian Race are often upheld by the Primes, it does not imply the Primes cannot make mistakes. Cybertronian History is filled with dark times and culminating in Primes Killing Primes. Also at the time of Orion Pax (Optimus Prime) as a records keeper in the city of Iacon, HE saw the terrible corruption. The "Gladiator games" typical of a degenerate and violent society. Megatronus being their greatest gladiator. He was a mentor to Pax in his early days. Before Megatronus entered the political field. Proclaiming an even more violent overthrow of the Old Guard and instituting a sort of "Imperial Order". Pax wanted a better Cybertron that involved peaceful negotiation and Democracy. When Primus chose Pax to become Optimus Prime, Megatronus became Megatron, leader of the Deceptacon Order and the self proclaimed liberator of Pax Cyberonica. You see a pattern here? More often than not, dictators are often charming, charismatic, and persuasive. Megatron is all that given what he wants is nothing short of complete rule of the galaxy as it's absolute master. By ANY means necessary. And he has committed genocide on an unprecedented order. Think about it. Fortunately Unicron makes Megatron ummm "rethink" his strategy.
no star scream has been repeatedly shown to have good intentions but his lack of will to sacrifice people under his command for the rest is repeatedly shown to have disastrous consequences. and star scream despite his most sincere intentions just ends up doing more harm than good, but instead of being given advice or shown what he did wrong, how he could be better. he was abused and beaten repeatedly by megatron and by others who were sopose to be his equal in rank and even by those lower in rank to him.
I'd put it like this...the further they are from Optimus, the more questionable they are. And I mean that literally, proximity to him seems to soften attitudes without dulling effectiveness. He is the moral fiber of the team. Half his people...Arcee, Bulkhead, Ratchet, Ultra Magnus, and Wheeljack...are pretty much what I would call indescriminant killers. In the sense that they don't have much regard for HOW they kill Cons, or the damage it does. Keep in mind, the Bulkhead I'm referring to is the Pre Prime version, where if stories are true, he seemed every bit as bloodthirsty as Wheeljack
I have the following scenario in mind: The war starts as in the Aligned continuity, but as the war draggs on, some decepticons begin to see that Megatron has gone mad and try reason with him so as to bring him back on the right track. But being mad, Megatron refuses to listen, which ultimately pushes the doubting decepticons to go their own way with Megatron treating them as traitors and no different from the autobots. Similarly, as the autobots commit their own share of war crimes, some of them, chief among them Optimus, protest to the high council being morally bankcrupt, one or two high council members included. But the high council accuses these protesters of conspiring with the decepticons and becomes even more oppressive, pushing the protesters to go their own way. This is treated as traison by the high council. Thus the war has escalated into a four-way conflict. Over time, the breakaway decepticons and the renegade autobots come to an understanding and reconcile, forming a coalition to defeat Megatron and the high council. The renegade autobots frequently strugle with their former ties to the high council with the breakaway decepticons always reminding them that the high council is morally beyond redemption. The breakaway decepticons for their part strugle with the fact that Megatron no longer serves the original decepticon cause with the renegade autobots talking them to their senses.
That happens. Both sides had defections to the opposite side, and those that went off, never to be seen again, and became refugees. Only one went off to still be involved in the war. That one, of course, was Lockdown.
So in the recent movies,I.felt like Optimus was leading the autobots into being martyrs giving their lives for humans,getting them masacered by humans and decepticons while the desepticons were trying to preserve their species and establish a home for themselves. They never really deter from the idea of doing what they can to unite together to build a home.
@@ladyeva9398 Yeah in the original concept he wanted it to be a disaster movie where decepticons/giant robots attacked humanity, and with no autobots at all. So yeah... that turned out great!
I think that, what Ratchet said, was wrong. But I, also, think that, everything he said, was said because it is what he believed or what he was told that happened.
Well Ratchet was one of Optimus’s close friends and had known him for quite some time as they frequently call each other “old friend” throughout the show. Ratchet however seems to be more ruthless with getting Cybertron back to the way it was when he grew up. He sounds oddly close to boomers in our society today if you truly think of it. As seen also Ratchet was willing to defy Optimus taking the synthetic energon when Optimus said not to, and went on a killing spree, to the point he nearly killed an innocent medical vehicon who simply follows orders the higher. Then to go off on Optimus like he did and continue to defy him till Megatron lays him out and he feels stupid. Not even mentioning all the times he’s pushed back on Optimus, like destroying the space bridge, or the omega lock; the only time he ever showed a difference in reaction is when Smokescreen saved Optimus with the Forge, and that was after the Deceptions had nearly won the war with picking the bots apart and taking over Earth.
"In war, there are no good guys... just your side and the brothers you fight bleed and die with. In war, the wrong people are dying." -Old Veteran I used to do beer runs and other errands for. It wasn't me being some saint. To me, he was a gold mine of stories that he told so well and he knew that. I did get to know him well enough that it hurt me when he finally found peace, God rest his soul.
I’ve always wondered why decepticons looked like battle ready bots. Now it makes sense. And auto bots mostly average middle to high class citizens such as cars and trucks.
In the original story the quintessons created all robots on Cybertron as slaves, they became sentient through finding suffering and joy they experienced in their lives. The next phase was rebellion against their slave Masters and drive them off the planet. The proto deceptions we're built to be heavy duty slaves, warriors and gladiators. The autobot ancestors were built also as slaves but not weaponized and much less battled ready. The society blended when they achieved their freedom and like any other many of the elite became corrupt. That is when the problem started things were not perfect but peaceful, feeling he could do better himself the newest model military leader wages war on the entirety of his society out of power hungry greed this was Megatron. The factions as we know them arose completely after that attack. I understand trying to add depth to something but not to the point of ruining it. It's disturbing and dumb how people have to reverse everything now and worship evil as good while demonizing the good. There's a reason villains are villains, they are either innately evil, took their cause way too far or simply grew drunk on power. This is just dumb
In g1 both autobot and decepticon factions were created as Quintesson slaves. The former for labor the latter as soldiers. They eventually formed free will and rebelled.
I think Megatron had a point, but I believe that when he gained some power, he had a taste for it. Freedom and authority he never once had in his entire life, and it came to him in tsunami’s. So he relished it, and slowly began turning into a Megalomaniac. Also I have a theory that the reason why Megatron is one of the only ones to be able to handle dark energon is because, like how Primes are guardians of cybertronians (or at least supposed to be), that are chosen by Primus. Megatron could have been Unicron’s own chosen one, but an agent of conquest rather than a guardian. Which could have secretly influenced Megatron’s personality bit by bit, like a cancer.
Optimus' idea of peaceful change was naive imo, governments DO NOT like change; they exist to protect the status quo. The bigger issue wasn't one of politics anyway, but of culture. Any meager change Optimus would've been able to enact would've been met with resistance and the everyday bot on the street was never going to let go of their prejudices or privilege. War was inevitable. *Especially* during scarcity. Some disturbing parallels with reality in their story.
Are you sure that revolution would always lead to good change? No Reign of Terror? Napoleon's rule as the dictator? Couldn't it be that the new rule disappoints its followers and their expectations? Can't the earlier saviour be an opressor and tyrant to some of his own people? Are you sure that a peaceful change isn't possible? Like the Non-Cooperation movements by M.K. Gandhi? I'll admit that I'm not certain which option would be better. Maybe the answer is not binary as Yes or No. All I wanted was to show you a different angle.
@@kumargaurav9212 Ghandi only got rid of a Colonial regime. But the regime in India is very much corrupt and classist. So that went no where. And King ended segregation on paper. But the rights of people of color are still just performative crap. We still have inequality between the ethnic groups and races in America. Only now it’s done under the table. That isn’t progress. Revolution is the only thing that really changes things. Edit Also Bonaparte was a Military Coup plotter not a Revolutionary. The original French Revolution was led by the Jacobins and other insurgent groups.
@@kumargaurav9212 hhahha. You think Ghandi's polices where implemented peacefully?! You are probably an American so let me give you an example from your own history; Civil Rights movemeny suceeded not because Martin Luther's non violent tendencies but because they assasinated one of the best people US produced and EVERY CITY STARTED RIOTING. So yes sometimes violence is the answer. And imagine a society that had this caste system , classcism and bigotry for hundreds of thousands of years.
@@berilsevvalbekret772 Okay so first off, I never said peaceful means is THE WAY OF CHANGE. I presented a different angle to be considered. As said I in the reply itself, I'm not sure which way is right. My intention was to present a different angle. Secondly, it's not funny dude that you say haha. But I do find it funny that you think that I am probably an American but make no mention (maybe cause you don't know) that "Gaurav" is a Hindi word. And then go on telling me "my own history"(American History in your view is my history). You know you can keep your view without being arrogant or rude.
I would like to argue that it WAS spiteful for Megatron to cut ties with Orion on a personal level. He had an opportunity. Yes, he was not himself named the next prime, but his friend, who looked up to him, was. He could have worked closely with Optimus and make his reforms a reality using Optimus's peaceful methods. Instead, he chose to cut ties because it was not him named a prime.
I agree with this, and it actually makes me wonder if Megatron was really ever Orion's friend, or if just like everything else in Megatron's life, another zero sum game he was trying to win and saw Orion as an opportunity because of his position in society to do so, maybe without even realizing it.
He never had ties to the council period. And this was just more perfromative BS to pretend to care. They probably didn’t even care about Optimus either. They just needed someone soft and suave to do their bidding while pretending to care for the people.
A massive problem I had with the show was how little lore we were given. LIKE, WHO WERE THESE GUYS BACK OM CYBERTRON? And what WAS life on CYBERTRON like? This video was really informative, thank you!
I love how the Decepticons have evolved from being the typical 80’s villain monolith, to being a three-dimensional and colorful faction that holds a cautionary tale at its center. IDW1 and TFP handled this especially nicely, with the Decepticons forming from sympathetic and idyllic dreams, before being corrupted into the relentless warmongerers they are. It reflects the evolution of the era around TF, from the Us vs. Them of the 80’s to the questioning of that mentality of today. The Autobots and Decepticons in TFP/IDW are equally morally gray, which makes it so much more realistic and engaging, because it asks who the good guys truly are. If there are any, or if there is just a faction that has done bad, and a faction that has done worse. TF is like a cultural analysis of the greater zeitgeist America/the world is in. It’s one of the reasons why I love it so much Video essay worthy!
In TFP. It was a little more obvious who we're the villains and who we wanted to root for. While in IDW it wasn't so clean-cut, it showed that both sides were morally gray.
TBF, the original toon had hues of this too. But were more swapped. In G1, Autobots were the blue collar workers, factories, dock workers, etc. The Decepticons were military, the DoD scientists, scout explorers(nasa), etc. But often were getting decommissioned as that, since a military was no longer truly needed with the quints gone. A full loss of purpose, of fates denied. Much more to it than that, but it's scattered and often retcons itself throughout pending on the perspective we're hearing the tale from & when. Where decepticons originally tried to take over because of feeling treated less than equal fear of where they go next, while they provided everything of security, then declared martial law. Which created the decepticon rebellion as they struck away from the government as a new self-contained group and blitzed the factories and cities for resources to take control and to topple the towers of privileged vanity like crystal city, which pushed the autobots, the mostly blue collar workers into having to stop them, while the privileged classes looked on and watched the two sides. Granted all of that was after the initial autobot rebellion which is what TFP draws heavily from. The Quintesson's enslaving cybertron and turning it into a manufacturing world to sell the Cybertronians as marketed goods into slavery. Which also dives even more into Guardian Robots, and the plight of Omega Supreme who has been around through it all from the first rebellion against the Quints, to the decepticon rebellion, and is now on earth wanting only peace and wants nothing to do with the war. The difference with TFP, is that it removed the element of the blue collar worker from the autobots, and centered the clash of ideals on privilege, and the corruption of power. Whereas initially in G1, that's still relatively true, but the emphasis of the class system was different. Where before it was more union workers against the military while the privileged hid away and let them fight. This is something I kind of miss about original Orion Pax. This emphasis of the intellectual turned leader feels more forced, as opposed to the dock manager turned union leader turned hero that had to stand up for the workers being hurt by this military strikes, that even injured him and made him into Optimus. Which the G1 Optimus is why he became a pillar of Morals. The blue collar work, transformed by an accident into a rallying leader. Which draws heavy parallels to union workers and union safety regulations/worker safety. There's also some interesting comparisons here to the movies, you see it most heavily in TLK, where Sqweeks & Izzie are having to parts reap, same as the autobots at the junk yard. Where now they are more feeling what the Decepticons of TFP had endured. There's a lot of depth to those bits, that were glossed over fast because of feelings of audiences wanting more digestable simplicity and distraction humor instead of full depth of their plights. So we only get Izzie's bits of her cybertronian family in really sparse quick nibbles instead of the full weight of it. These things have echoed throughout the brand as a whole from the start in every era, but in different ways and different influences for where they focus. But it's easier to say the basics of Auotbots good, decepticons bad. And call it a day. When in reality, it is more complex across the eras, and many often reflect the feelings of the era it was written in.
That's because after the decline in the 90's the the Transformers franchise was left with just a small but dedicated fanbase, and in order to keep the fans the franchise had to grow up with them, implementing more mature themes to appease an audience now made by teens and young adults. Wich is the same thing that happened to mecha anime.
16:32 This really brings context to that one scene in TFP when Optimus has amnesia, and shows that Megatron was never actually bullshitting. *ORION:* Why are we called "Decepticons? *MEGATRON:* Another Autobot scare tactic. The name was made to Demonise us. Instead, we wear it as a badge of honour. For if peaking the truth is deception, then we are gladly guilty.
I always figured Ratchet was a little castist (is that the word?) when you pointed out that eye colour in Transformers Prime wasn't based on morality. Edit: *classist
You've got to remember, Ratchet was simplifying the story for literal children, whom he doesn't entirely respect the intelligence of, to understand deep lore about a centuries-old alien civilization. He might have understood the inequalities of Cybertron well, but felt no need to explain them in full to kids who are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of his age.
I’ve always liked the deception cause more than the autobots. After some reading, and watching transformers prime, I couldn’t help but think that the autobots were questionable at best.
@@jeff3221 I agree that the Decepticons are evil by the time of the show, but when you consider their origin, you see that the conflict has a lot more nuance than the show would have you believe.
I always found the decepticons and autobots to be such an incredibly interesting set of factions. And also, Megatron had been corrupted from the long war, as far as I can see he was corrupted before dark energon and simply went to it as a last result. Megron is a surprisingly tragic character who was corrupted by watching the person he thought he could trust not only be appointed as a prime instead of him but then watched this same person create a faction to oppose him made of those who had oppressed him and many others. It's nice to see at the end of transformers prime that he has a change back to who he was after being subjugated by Unicron like had back before he started his uprising and saw that it was pointless to continue the war considering that, by all accounts, he actually accomplished his goal
It's a pity how the Decepticons fell over the simple march of time, their old selves slaves and gladiators likely wouldn't even recognize themselves as they are now, willing to condemn entire other worlds that had no part in their war to death for their own goals.
Revolutions are often enough absorbed into the system, nowadays the French Revoltionists faction doesn't exist but it's legacy on world history is Immense
An interesting thought: when people, or in this case, robots, revolt, it often results in a period of anarchy, which then turns into a form of government. Oliver Cromwell’s rule in England is a great example of this in human history. Basically, the English people were tired of having a king, so they revolted and got a dictator…
True, but Cromwell was really good as far as I remember, I think people automatically connect dictator with evil. Oliver for example was a dictator in title and in practice, vut he was a good and respected leader besides his disagreements with the parliament. And then his son fucked it up.
@@radekvaverka8921 I think the real problem with dictators isn’t so much that they’re all destined to be bad leaders, but that the best aspects of their rule are doomed to die with them.
I think the reson why megatron befriended and metored orion aka optimus because orion was an upper class yet he was eager to meet megatron and hear out of his case and become friends. The slave class was starved for love and care to live as a normal so megatron saw orion as a true friend much like soundwave who was a cpuncill but choose to live amoung the poor and sweared a silence oath.
The "13th Prime" was also known as "The Nameless/The Forgotten Prime", and the original primes were basically akin to the saints from biblical history, especially after you think look into things, the Primus record books had stricken the name of the thirteenth from all records, effectively making them a figment of cybertronian history, there was more than likely a thirteenth biblical saint, whose name was stricken from the record.(⌐■-■)
the number twelve for the apostles was deliberate even at the time as it was reference to the twelve tribes. and that number was considered sacred enough by ancient Israel such that even early on when one tribe became full of wickedness to the point of being cast out and the tribe name removed, another was divided into two and become the new twelfth and for the apostles, likewise after Judas' betrayal, he was cast out and a new twelfth selected. to have 13, would be to count the apostles AND the messiah Yehoshua
@@MrMJmusicLover I mean, in that case the Taliban I'd argue is the one being oppressive. Their religion gives the an excuse to oppress their women, which is unfair. The war on terror only began because they hijacked a plane and threw it at important buildings. But yeah, perhaps we need to live them alone and have the human rights slowly reappear via human rights movements, if they aren't shot on sight...
I think it would be a very cool “What If?” spin-off if, say, Megatron was bit more tempered in his speech and had Orion Pax/Alpha Trion supporting him, allowing the Council to name him as Prime. I could see him becoming a Napoleon like figure, who perhaps does reform and rejuvenate Cybertron, but also turns it into an inter-galactic empire that starts expanding rapidly, forcing them into conflict with the rest of the galaxy
@@ivanpavelmartinezmedina8426 Thanks. I chose "Megatronus Prime II" because we already had a Megatronus Prime and there's the whole rule with primes having names that end with "us" like, Optimus, Solus, Rodimus, Megatronus, Micronus, Amalgamous... Y'know how it is.
I'd like to "defend" a couple of autobots: Ratchet- his retelling of the Megatron-Orion audience with the council is flawed HOWEVER, being that Ratchet was NOT a councilman (councilbot?) he couldn't be there. Arcee- I love that two-wheeler so, yeah, I'm pretty biased but we don't know if she hated 'cons that much before Tailgate's death... as for afterwards... I think I'll forgive her for having PTSD fueled hate for being tortured and seeing her partner being tortured and killed in front of her. As far as the unnecessary cruelty we see in the cartoon (on both sides) I'll excuse both 'cons and 'bots... If human soldiers can come back completely changed after a few years of war I guess that millions of years of war can do much worse. Also, I love how, since you mentioned IDW, the IDW comics present us with a lot of autobots "baddies" (let's go with that, the whole spectrum of how evil the various deranget 'bots would take ages to describe.)
Technically, Tailgate's Death is all Arachnid, and she can't really be counted as a True Decepticon since she left them and came crawling back. Plus, no one really liked her. Even Megatron didn't really want to keep her, but she proven to be still useful...until she killed Breakdown. Probably should not have let her back in.
I didn't like how you used Optimus interrogation of Soundwave as if he WANTED to do so. He treated Soundwave fairly during the whole time. Optimus is the pure in goodness but the vast majority of the autobots are what you described.
Hey Kumquat, I've been wondering. I know you usually only review newer shows, but I wanted to ask you if you could review some of the older shows, since you seem to be branching out to things like IDW. Im specifically interested in your thoughts on TFA, since Prime seems to take a lot of inspiration from that show.
Hey I just had a thought. In this video you said that the lower castes made up most Decepticons while higher castes made up most of the Autobots. you also said the pollution in slave cities was so bad that bot's eyes would be damaged. What if most desepticons eyes are red due to amage done by pollution. and autobots would say blue because they werent in those cities. and other decepticons like Starscream who wasntalways in the slums probably had his optics damaged during the war when the decepticon headquarters was in th middle of Kaon. There may besome holes in this theory but it was just a quick thought that I had and i think it makes sense in a lot of ways.
@@matthewcisneros7245 It’s interesting, but the Aligned Continuity started giving red and blue eyes to whatever faction, so I like to think it’s natural Cybertronian diversity
There is a fanfic called words unspoken where soundwave after TFP become the new leader of the decepticons and restore decepticon's cause to its originality.
Even as a kid, i ALWAYS had a doubt when i heard this ONE side is COMPLETELY evil and must be stopped. Conquerors are the "winners" and rewrite history as such. Great Transformers content and breakdown. SUBBED
It's a cartoon series meant to sell toys. It was that simple because it had no grand aspirations for a deep story with a mixture of motivations. The decepticons aren't evil because of Revisionism. They are sympathetic now because of retconning.
Megatron first in Cybertron´s Golden age: Abolish the opression!, Change the system, do the wrong thing for good reasons Megatron after the war in Earth: Purple DrUgS, murder, zombies and madness I guess in every good is a bit of evil, and every evil a bit of good, so the Decepticons wanted a change but Megatron took a bad path, and then the Autobots just try to stop it because it really would not fix a scrap, all the mass murder, the conquers, Unicron
So just like most communist revolution, they become the very thing that they hated 😂, this is why I will always view megatron as the bad guy and Optimus as the good guy, I rather not go for the side that’s going to basically become authoritarian because they got a taste of power like most communist
You make too much sense xD Specially when Megatron is enraged by Orion becoming Optimus Prime. I mean, Megatron is fighting to overthrow the system that gives power to the casts of Cybertron. The rebirth of Orion as Optimus is not a middleground, it's a reinforcement of the cast system. A slap in the face of Megatron's cause.
I saw it this way as well, I think Orion Pax was Megatron's friend, Optimus Prime however, was the living embodiment of the very idea that an individual has the right to be over other individuals, and all others are "lesser", which is exactly how Megatron and the other Decepticons ended up where they were. How can there truly be equality or even freedom when that same mind set is still there?
@@kylehankins5988Indeed, and there were clear signs that Optimus had every intention to fulfill Megatron’s dream. Albeit in a peaceful and orderly manner, which would have taken a lot more time than with violent means, which was unacceptable for Megatron and thus, civil war.
Ofc, Megatron was the rebel leader and want's to overthrow the government. He also didn't trust the "establishment" or the Autobots, which is pretty understandable. This doesn't make him evil. But he demanded the crown for himself. This is the part where he "began to show his true colors". This is where he showed, he would be just the next dictator. Also, Megatrons goals were irreconcilable to begin with, justice and revenge don't go together. When he justified the actions of the Decepticons, he already had made his choice. Justice is about closure, revenge is about cycles. The video explains this cycle very well.
Of course that would not have been the case that the same time you realize if this is the case Of him doing something that isn't good then that means It wants to turn back on the Autobots It's autobot's piece and decepticons didn't even understand that that's why keeps happening to every lost On planet cybertron.👨👩👧👦
Megatron is a tragic character because I feel like he REALLY wanted to do something good and help his people, but he didn't know any other way than violence because that's what he knew all his life. If only Orion told that council that he beliefs Megatron has the potential to be a Prime and helped him find a better way, help him understand, I feel like it would turn out better.
Good vid, also, Is it possible to interpret "Decepticons" as "Anti-deception"? (like 'the autobots are deceiving us we fight for truth thus we are decepticons') because u know, "cons" could means "anti" or "against" iirc. It always felt weird that they just accept an "Evil name" and say it all the times.
@@emperorkumquat It could also fit as an implant Cybertronians could recieve to make them living lie detectors, and thus Megatron decided to implant all of his followers with them, or the Decepticons are just a military caste that are born with the lie detection capabilities, and so the original Decepticons gave themselves the name of "Decepticon" because it fit and sounded cool.
Megatron: "I bring a commandment from Primus himself". Sentinel Prime: "And just what exactly is this commandment"? Megatron: "Thus sayeth the Lord and Creator of Cybertron. LET MY PEOPLE GO"!!!!!!!!
Almost every version of the Transformers backstory I've come across has shown that there were legit problems on Cybertron that would inevitably lead to rebellion of some sort. But every time, the rebels, the Decepticons, always wind up going too far and becoming worse than what they hoped to overthrow. Just once I'd like a show where the two sides, Bots and Cons, are even in terms of their morality and what they fight for. Really make the audience think hard about who is in the right 😊
This is a very popular - and extremely toxic - story trope in Hollywood. The idea that the oppressed, once they gain power, will be "worse than those they overthrew." You see it constantly from epic movies to 20-minute cartoons about bullying or something. And it's always the same thing; the story ends up always with the same message, 'thing were better when the oppressed were being oppressed." it encourages the viewer to sympathize and identify with the oppressors, while pretending to have a moral message of "moderation" - basically, oppression against others is good, so long as you don't do it to the point of revolt. Violence against others is acceptable, so long as you've got status, etc.
@@TheRusty well it's rooted in human history. There are different types of oppression beyond the obvious that all could agree is oppression, most oppression is based on the points of view of the opressed. Liberation of one faction means the oppression of the other.
I always thought that both factions agreed on revolution however the autobots were fighting for a free society and the decepticons were trying to make a Totalitary government that benefited their cause. Thanks for clearing that up.
you were right the first time, he's talking about the origins of the decepticons.... as he said they are just disgusting evil tyrents now, their message has been currupted by greed and power lust
Transformers Animated is very interesting for the lore, and we see an interesting dynamic where the Decepticons are essentially a rebel guerilla force who are resisting the forces of the Primes.
Well let's see if I agree with this Beginning - No I'll edit at the end Edit: I do think there's a lot to this video. I don't think "The Decepticons were RIGHT!?" was the most accurate but I understand the reason behind it. To gather more attention. I don't know anyone else in the world like this but I'm able to understand Optimus and Megatron very well because they are both parts of me. One is the ideal, Optimus Prime. The other is something that SEEMS much more grounded in the depths of humanity, Megatron. I don't think that war is the right way to change. I do see it as easier but much less stable in nature. But I do acknowledge the fact that if they were to be a violent revolution in a corrupt country I would support it. I don't blame either side and if a war were to ever break out none of you deserve any hate and all deserve the safety of other
At the end of the day, both sides loose almost everything, so no matter who you blame or who was right or wrong, both sides are loosing more of what little they have left
If the bombings only hit middle-class commoners and not the high-ranking officials themselves, they only reduce the amount of potential supporters on the other side
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yo did you read the whole thing? Don't you think it's a bit sus that the autobots are somehow clueless of the suffering of the bots who'd later become the decepticons?
But what about in tfp where OP says there are no diplomatic means to end the war? What do you think of that?
I always thought that it was kind of screwed up for Autobots who came from middle class to think that the door class is revolting against upper classes for being oppressed are evil an Autobots are way too bias on every turn describing decepticons as evil while they were not
Does all that mean the Autobots compassion for their Human partners, is a lie?
@@stephenbyrne2170 NO
The Decepticons had a great point, and then Megatron started doing Space Crack.
More like Space Meth. lol
Whatever it is...shits fuck'n fire...
Gets ya talking to robots n' shit
Tyrants are predictable, regardless of how good their points are.
Megatron started thinking he was so smart after some drugs and ended up in a Mike bay movie
@@deleteduser3455 it sounds like Megatron surrounded himself with sycophants who did not understand the plight of the unnamed enslaved cast. Bit of a tale as old as time. The Netflix documentary Nazis on drugs talks about Hitler's drug use. There are a lot of parallels. German tank troops took meth pills to outlast their opponents during blitzkrieg.
What IDW Transformers line was able to potray was that neither side is good or evil. That in the end Cybertronians are just a species at war and they are often hated by other races for their long drawn out war. Some races even avoid Cybertronians like a plague. And that one bit where Optimus chose exile after the war was over? His Autobots thought that Optimus was making a noble sacrifice but Optimus in his inner dialogue said that he was just tired of being responsible for others and leading an entire faction. This exile is his freedom.
Just because the decepticons are right doesn’t mean they are correct their methods aren’t correct
liberal spotted
😂 Put yourself into their position, would you do anything different knowing the council?
@estacion7386 the moment Megatron does space Crack im defecting cuz I am not going to fight for a addict
@@estacion7386he chose violence he chose to start war he chose to do unspeakable crimes the decepticons were wrong at least octimus is honourable
Honestly, now more than ever I want an adult swim show about the dystopian life on Cybertron. If Transformers Prime taught us anything, is that darker Transformers stories CAN work and this universe and it's characters CAN be much more than just toys sold to children.
I firmly believe that a dark Transformers series could work and if Hasbro is smart they'll realize the potential.
I wish they made more seasons of TFP but with the story being about their past lives of Cybertron.
I wish they'd redo RID but good lol
Have you watched the War For Cybertron trilogy? That series is my absolute favorite, ever.
@@beltfed4624 pretty sure you were asking the other person, but figured I'd chime in! I had some problems but overall I really enjoyed it. Heavy on the space opera approach but definitely made the action feel that much sweeter, especially in Kingdom. And despite certain things in Kingdom that I LOATHED... there were equal parts really awesome moments like the whole Ark transformation and the Dinobot, Black Arachnia, and Starscream team-up, plus so much more character development for Starscream
@@beltfed4624 I startes watching all TF shows listed on Wiki lol. Haven't gotten to that one yet
I want a war for cybertron movie Micheal bay style preferably I didn’t like the age of extinction or the last knight but the way the story is going we might get more cybertron scenes as well as war flashbacks but it’s not the actual war it’s self
Class warfare, poverty, revolution, drug addiction, obsession, depression, uncomfortable truths of self preservation. This tosses my childhood for a loop.
The entire part of the video with blackout was just genuinely sad. This bot who is on the brink of death is crying out for help, and a bot of the other faction hears his cries. The Autobot asks if there are anymore “bad guys” around, to which Blackout replies that they’re dead. Slug is basically stereotyping the “bad guys” as people who kill innocents and are not allowed to have friends because they’re “bad guys”.
Thats exactly the point, we can't forget this is a kid show, so it must be clear who are the good guys and the bad ones, but this still is a great adaptation, because the decepticons shouldn't be evil, they want exactly the same as the Autobots but their methods are harsher, yet their goal is peace and a non corrupted planet, Megatron has some principiles, and Dreadwing literally acts with the same honor as an Autobot, that's the reason Megatron dismanteled the decepticons on Prime's ending, because he saw what a Tyrant he became and Knew the autobots were right, because originally Decepticons and Autobots were the same.
Well thats the reason why autobots were weak cuz most of them were doing jobs where most decepticons were doing fights and harsh work
Also Decepticons had more heavy vehicles for alt modes
@@Void-r3b ye
Yay, you were able to get it out, nice video. It really makes you think about the decepticon side
Well, we are working to replace the traitor Starscream. You’d be lucky to get the spot on the first day.
@@TheRisingStorm316 Is that a reference to something because I don’t get it
@@Justarandomreviwer Starscream is a slimy coward (and a bit of a douchebag) and he always finds a way to betray our leader Megatron, be it with a bomb (in Transformers: Animated), flying away constantly and making clones (in Transformers: Animated and Transformers: Prime) and even going so far as to join the Autobots (in Transformers: Armada). *Yes, you read that correctly.*
Question: if Optimus did somehow change his autobot symbol to something else just before the war start, do you think that Megatron that make thought Optimus's Autobots were a different faction or just a re-skin of the council raising back to power??
And for once, I just want the decepticons to win and be the good guys, and no, Im not meaning like Shatter Universe.
For the cons to be good megatron mist change a part of his personality and allie with Orion instead of being turned away by pride
15:03 you know he’s mad when he starts swearing 👀
I would love a transformers show or movie that takes a more grey and nuanced look on the autobots and deceptions
Your missing 2 points.
1 the criminal element taking advantage of the confusion. Megatron was forced to align with them because they were seen as providing necessary supplys. However this does not make a criminal element Saintly. It only taints the revolutionary cause of Decepticons.
2 as revolution progressed, Decepticons do take power, and therefore are responsible for everything that happens on Cybertron as the new leaders. Megatron turns his vision of freeing oppression, outward to sentience species in space. Now it's ceases to be a freedom fighting cause, of one world, to a war of conquest throughout the Galaxy, which changes its nature, and the nature of Megatron.
You cannot use a fictional story to justify or indict revolutionary causes in world history on our real planet, as fiction it can only reflect poorly what has actually happened in our real history.
As a fictional story, Megatron is a villain, Optimus prime is cast as the hero, that is how it has been written that is how it shall always be.
I do get tired of children trying to save and promote monsters and vilify our heroes. Both those that are real and imaginary.
Fiction is fiction and is as it has been written, people are only people and we have both light and dark within us.
" Only human".
Megatron was too honest and true to his convictions. He could have manipulated Orion, but that's not how he was.
he kinda did when he had amnesia
It really is a shame the animated shows don't dive deep into the history of the two sides. I never really liked the black and white way most of the shows almost always ran with. Shows like the the war for cybertron while it didn't go deep at least didn't show megatron as pure evil. He had to make a call that would doom a town or something, he went there to visit and the bots were happy and honored. He went there knowing he had to shut the place down and he was clearly guilt ridden about it.
I don't read the comics, i just don't know where to even start but i see vids about it from time to time and megatron is now an autobot. It seems he came to his senses.
"Decepticons, transform and rise up!"
and
"You are being deceived."
Are amazing Decepticon phrases.
I’m so sad that “transform and rise up” isn’t more widely used. I love the phrase
Let's not forget: "If speaking truth is a deception, then we're gladly guilty"
@@DJ_TamTam what truth?
@@mistylover7398 It's what Megatron said to Optimus when he lost his memories and thought he was Orion Pax.
@@alduintheanti-dragonborn 🤨
if i remember correctly, there were a few comics where Optimus himself has stated that he agreed with the reasons for why the decepticons started their war. Even willing to try and further their original cause. It was when Megatron basically went all ape-shit, going from freedom fighter to dictator in the making. I think in one comic, Optimus even pointed this out to Megatron that he was basically doing what he was originally trying to fight against.
Optimus also isn't in charge of anything, the dude is just a random military leader.
There have also been plotlines involving him coming into contact with higher ups and being overridden and chastised for his actions
Megatron might be going Abit far, but when push comes to shove there's also not another option when fighting the autobots
@@death299 yeah prime was under sentiel and zeta and then emirate, alpha trion and autobot high command or the council
Megs seems to answer to nobody he was supreme commander and it seemed like the decepticon high council was under him and only have orders or selected other leaders when Megatron was dead or offline
@@chrisedwards3214 didn't say megatron had to answer to anyway. But one is in the middle of a rebellion with an enemy force thst dosen't view lesser bots as having rights
And thebother is the ruling class that spent untold centuries forcing orhers under boot
The nature of rebellion and resistance forces is there's no such thing as a proper ruler, there's an individual considered the defacto and capable of ordering anyone around, but they're also not obeyed and did to size and communication their orders are more suggestions
You see this throughout the various shows when Megatron has to actively use threats of force to get others to obey him
The irony of becoming the very monster they sought to destroy. But yet once you get a taste of the power that the said monsters use, it becomes addicting
@@adawnicusautocon the decpticons for all their problems arise still nowhere near as bad as the autobots were it still are.
In most scenerios the only reason the decpticons are even on earth is purely because the autobots brought the war to this and many other worlds
And both sides want the same for earth, control of it's resources, we just follow a commander that's half decent
The writers "Oh sh*t! The villains are making good points, QUICK! Make them kill babies!!"
👶 : 🤨
😂😂😂😂😂
Heretic babies?😂
That I Would Definitely Get Behind 😂
That is usually how it goes.
Many fantasy villainy is not even necessarily evil. Just morally grey, and the unfortunate impact of their actions is being told through the protagonist’s POV, which make it seem as evil.
In real world, morally grey things generally happen. And people seem to not get that. People may understand that, but they don’t ever get it
breakdown ironically the nicest decepticon has the most traditional proposed decepticon backstory along with megatron
And then he gets slaughtered like a damn Frankenstein experiment.
@@dotexe8870 lol multiple times even after death
I've tried to think of a TFP Breakdown fic where he joins the Autobots, but I honestly can't really think of anything that would be interesting and different enough from the actual show and still be realistic to what would actually change.
Although if Breakdown DID survive, the episodes "Human Factor", "Thirst", "Minus One", "Persuasion", "Synthesis" and "Deadlock", and the "Predacons Rising" movie would not happen.
Specifically Breakdown's death is what causes Cybertron to be restored. So if Breakdown survives and joins the Autobots, the war would continue, and I'm not really sure how to continue it from then on, and even if the "post-show" would offer more interest, the majority of the story still would not be very interesting.
I really would love to write a Breakdown story where he joins the Autobots, but unlike my Autobot!Starscream story where I ended up making lore mistakes anyway so it turned out fine, I don't wanna repeat that in the Breakdown story, so I'm kinda lost on how to write one and make it good...
I DO know how to write a fic on the show where Arcee kills Starscream in "Partners", as that would change the show enough to make it interesting, plus it would add in a potential ghost to haunt everyone.
Sigh. I have much easier writing Starscream than other characters. I just wish I knew his past life, other than his high caste status and military commander occupation. I have to make up my own backstory for him, which is most likely wrong, but I hope it will at least turn out somewhat plausible, for the general idea of his life if anything.
Sorry, I'm blabbering now. It's late, I'm tired and a bit hyper on sugar.
The difference is Haiti and the Dominican Republic or North and South Korea... Haiti and Nkorea rose up in hate and live desperate live still
Poor lad dying while dead lol
I don't know if it's ever mentioned, but I think it would be really cool if part of the reason Megatron resorted to Dark Energon was because he resented Primus in a way, for creating him aimless and nameless in a society that cared nothing for him. It would add some depth to the decision instead of just making it space crack
That’s a pretty damn good theory
Or rather resentment for being the progenitor (at least namesake/ justification for power) of the very caste system (which was supported by the Primes) that had enslaved Megatron, and millions more for eons.
Actually he kinda did in the Cybertron games.
@@goldedrag111 did he? I played Cybertron Adventures on the Wii and then Fall of Cybertron on PC and I don't remember it being touched on
@@theorangeninja6486 Basically he cared about Cybertron but he seemed to use Dark Energon and call it his birthright.
damn now that line from dark of the moon by sentinel makes sense: “WE were Gods once, all of us!”
I agree. It makes sense now.
"All of us"
@@Breakaway-ic5gj It gives me the chills now. haha
Psalm 82:6
King James Version
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High
John 10:34
“Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”
If in fact the Deceptions were slaves, then as illustrated in Deuteronomy 28, the Hebrews were punished and slavery was the result of that punishment. This story sounds remarkably familiar. The question begs, who are the real Hebrews? Scripture refers to them as, " The hidden ones."
@@threedplayer *[Assassin's Creed Origins theme starts playing]*
"The senate carved up the planets population by notions of utility. Your form determined your function, your function determined your fate. Someone had to say no, someone had to say enough" - Megatron
do we have to blame megatron after going through shit?
@@mikaelafefrias1880 To a bunch of people, apparently yes.
@@mikaelafefrias1880 The hell did you think I was saying you dolt? I never disagreed with you or presented argument, I simply stated that there ARE people who see Megatron as in the wrong regardless of circumstances. Learn to read and stop pointlessly starting fights over things that haven't at all been said.
@@mikaelafefrias1880 Sorry for being rude but for the love of god at least actually *read* what you're responding to. You just went on a whole tirade on me for no reason.
@@mikaelafefrias1880 well yeah, he killed 100 billion uninvolved people and pushed their race to the brink of extinction
Now i see Megatron as a tragic figure, his goal was noble, but years of abuse filled him with hatred and lust for revenge.
Yeah, now we get to see & learn why Megatron became the way he is I wish they made this into a life movie but like everything else Hollywood will just f$%k it up.
Who?!
Hollywood is one giant entitled safe space needing hive mind with no creativity or independent thought left over, so it doesn’t matter who tried to Make it . It’d be awful TT
@@SlipknotPyro Played us like a damn fiddle!
Sound wave earned the respect of Megatron
Given how corrupt he becomes in every iteration, I think Megatron should heed the words of Obi-Wan when he says, "You have become the very thing you swore to destroy."
so true, so much true, especially since you are mixing Transformers franchise with Star Wars ( Movieverse)
The way i saw Optimus looking into cybertron files and the flaws implied he at least mature and thought he could fix things and work things out as it like trying to go into someone world understanding and fix things hoping to help someone who wants to do right only to realize nothing was going to get better
E
It's one of the reasons IDW's Megatron is so fascinating. He _realises_ how much of a monster he became, and made an effort to stop. But by then, it was too little, too late. There was no redeeming him, no way to forgive him, no matter how hard he tried.
I'm hoping Earthspark also goes deeper into this idea of a Megatron who renounced his ways. The Earthbound Autobots and Terrans seem to respect him, while his Decepticon companions see him as traitor who sold them out. There's the hint that the Decepticons became so interested in conquest, that they not only forgot what they were fighting for, but after the war ended, it seems they failed to achieve what they even started the war for.
@@comicbookreviewer4856 This comment- ''Impossible, perhaps the archives are incomplete''
The line ”We cannot let the humans pay for our mistakes” hit harder now after watching this
Oh wow, it really does
Sadly, the decepticons were led by a gladiator that only knew death fights. He was smart and opened peoples eyes, but no one was their to keep him from crossing any lines. So when he started do things like drugging up, no one stopped his slow descent from spokesman of equality and change to mad bloodthirsty tyrant.
Which is why I don't understand why Kumquat refuses to call a spade a spade and point out the fact Megatron is objectively immoral and in the wrong. He latches onto the good guy fallacy that the Autobots must be inherently evil since they were victims of fortunate circumstances and the Decepticons were not. In reality, it's simply unluckiness
@@Mr_Mistah Eh? Maybe naivety? Or lack of understanding? His example of the French Revolution threw me off; it wasn't 'the poor' doing the rebelling, it was the middle-class who were lumped into the peasantry, and they lead the charge. (Though, I did a have ghoulish 'what if' fan-ficition story pop into my head, where Optimus started the Cybertronian version of the French Revolution. Muh brain works in odd ways.)
When you're a hammer everything is a nail
Its the age old story of the revolutionary leader becoming the very thing he swore to destroy. It happens every time. Every noble cause gets corrupted. Every good thing rots. Every high ideal betrays itself.
The downside of the decepticons was that they made a gladiator who couldn't lead into their leader, rather than just their spokesperson. A guy who quite literally only knows fighting because that's the one thing that got him anything in his life, and his logic of "might makes right" made him resort to dark energon, which turned into the crazed madman he's most known as.
I’ve literally said this for years. The decepticons are literally the definition of die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain. Decepticons were heroes fighting to end oppression. But after Millions of years fighting a war where they had to resort to immoral tactics to achieve a moral cause, they got lost in there actions and became the oppressors they sought to destroy.
They had to resort to immoral tactics to achieve moral goals?
Meh. One of them just used this as a very convenient "excuse" to commit mass crimes.
For this one con, whose name I shall not say, the cause was lost to his urge and will to commit crimes.
Or, even worse, it was just a pretext, a decoy he never cared about at all.
Pretty much like the hoodlums in the Purge. They use pretexts of justice, equality, etc. to commit crimes of the worst sorts.
The ideals they mention are nothing but convenient buzzwords to cover their own crimes and avoid taking responsibilities.
@@Briselance and what con on you referring to? Obviously each side has its good and bad members. But it doesn’t change the fact that their cause was just, and their leaders were once good.
Just like almost every 19th century revolution ever
The space crack didn't help.
@@Briselance yeah, I love him as a villain but, moraly speaking, Fuck Shockwave
As a wise man once said:
“The flag is different but the methods are the same.”
Wise words from our comrade, Viktor Reznov
@@pharaohbubbles1547
URA!
@@EbilEnemyofBurgerTown URA!!!
@@pharaohbubbles1547
Yes…
Good old Reznov
Ah Soundwave, the most quotable Decepticon.
In all seriousness, this was a great video!
Autobots inferiors, Soundwave superior.
Well, he is the most quotable. He has the most iconic line in the franchise.
Soundwave would have been great prime
@@anakinlowground5515 Not that I don't agree that he's very quotable, but what exactly is the line to which you're referring? I'm curious.
@@rainshadow1844 Eh, his most quotable line. The most iconic line Soundwave has.
The Decepticons were right at first until they became the very thing they swore to destroy
I always ask myself… WHAT ARE THE ANTI AIR DEFENSES DOING?
@@Darkspark06 Wdym by that?
I will say this; the Decepticon cause was justified, but Megatron was a bad person who corrupted the movement into his own cult of personality.
Yes I agree. that what happened it was power and greed that took Megatron over
Quit your whining, if Megatron was a bad guy why more than half of cybertron was willing to follow him, Autobots were murdering oppressors they had it coming.
@@tarn4633 why yes the Autobots were murders but during the war of cybertron the decepticons became no better than the autobots
Like when Megatron stole that one primes arm from his grave and Optimus was like what the F Megatron
@@fillllsjshsjsh Megatron: No you don't understand! I NEED to be able to use my drug sword! I NEED TO!
Slaughter of slaves at Kaon
(Before the Great War)
Soundwave: How many lives are worth a cause ?
Megatron: The one to save twice as many, to free and uplift twice as many.
Well said :)
@@-Tarn-1212 It's a dangerous point to be willing to sacrifice so many, even if you think the end result is positive...though it ultimately depends on if the sacrificed are willing sacrifices or not.
@@SubduedRadical opposing authoritarianism at all costs is absolutely necessary to the fundaments of a free and open society. Sacrifice is required to live a life not bound and forced to your knees.
@@randomanun4278 Yes, but it has to be YOUR sacrifice. You can't sacrifice OTHER PEOPLE who are NOT YOU to achieve it. Not to mention, even when we're talking willing soldiers for your cause (who presumably understand there's a risk of death) that there's a limit to how many you can sacrifice before you run out. If you kill 99% of your members, was the result worth it?
The bigger issue is: Was the violence and sacrifice even necessary? Sometimes it's not.
And even IF we get to cases where it's warranted and necessary to fight - "He will triumph who knows when to fight...and when not to fight." Pyrrhic victories in battles often lead to losing wars...
@@SubduedRadical if the result is shirking the yolk of tyranny so that the future generations and or current generation, can live in a free society, every single person who does fall for the cause is a shining example of someone who just wanted to be left the fuck alone and fought for that right against a oppressive for e who sought more power and more control. weak men and women casually accept encroaching tyrannical over reach and ignore it, deeming this right or that a frivolity that they deem too troublesome to quarrel over.
ask a first generation immigrant from any brutal oppressive nation if every single right is a right worth fighting over... matter of fact seek out survivors of the cultural revolution or ask someone who remembers Berlin pre regan... or literally any pan asiatic country that borders China if a right is worth fighting over... I'll wait. Know why? Because even if you try to mount thr moral high horse of well they need to be willing to sacrifice.... if they and you fucking fail against that oppressive force everyone now sacrifices. All hope is lost and you will spend the entirety of the rest of your life wondering if you had just fucking fought back where would the nation or world be as a result?
As a kid we support the heroes :
As an adult we understands villains :
I think even kids try to understand villains, i know i was like that :)
And maturing is sticking with the heroes regardless.
@@s.p.d.magentaranger1822 The true heroes that is.
@@s.p.d.magentaranger1822 regardless of if they are bad and just blindly supporting them? If that is what you’re saying I don’t think that’s maturing
@@s.p.d.magentaranger1822 right...even when the "heroes" are societal maniacs who get off by watching poor people kill each other. Yup. Great heroes.
Also puts into perspective that Megatron maybe wasn't lying to Orion when he asked why they were called 'Decepticons'
Megatron says: "Another Autobot scare tactic, the name was meant to demonize us...instead, we wear it as a badge of honor. For if speaking the truth is deception, then we are gladly guilty"
And if the Decepticons was once a just and noble cause, as was Megatron once, then that would make sense
So decepticons is the same as the n word. 😅😅
@@fancy3774 bro 💀
@@mocho562 its true though
@@monkeywheel5522 ik
Megatronus, why are we called ni-
Megatron is the embodiment of the quote "you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain".
its more like "you either die a hero or start doing space meth and go apeshit" in megatron's case.
😂 You are never a hero when you challenge the status quo, regardless of your intentions.
When I was younger, I always rooted for the Decepticons... because they looked cool.
same lol
Yr
tbh me too, i really liked their costumes armies etc
Soundwave is still THE most badass character out of all, without saying a word. The only char who can be even more badass is Shockwave, but he didn't have the screentime to shine, unlike Soundwave. And both of them are Decepticons
This is why Exiles and Exodus should be classed as required reading.
Very much so
If they were available
Honestly, I feel like the only important things on exodus is just chapter 1-first half of 12. The rest of the novel can be skipped, since chapter 12-15 are adapted into a prequel comic for the war for cybertron game and chapters 16 - 39 of the novel mostly adapts the war for cybertron video game, so... yeah.
Just my opinion tho.
My dad got them for my birthday this year. =D
@@shiningcrystal9259 you can get the ebooks of them.
ratchet: admit inequality and the highly questionable gladiator event
also ratchet:in the twilight of *the golden age*
The twilight can refer it to being the end of a golden age due to the stagnation, inequality, and corruption that seeped in as well as Cybertron closing itself off. Ratchet is also a biased perspective who wasn't in the pits.
...It can be listed as that in history and he can call it that, even if he doesn't think it was perfect.
Another point is that Bumblebee, (probably) Smokescreen, and all the other last-generation bots are technically child soldiers. And which faction did they all end up joining?
Autobot . I think it sounds more appealing rather than siding with lower cause dirty and filthy brutes
@@Guruguru-nl8bs You think they had a choice? What do you think child soldiers are?
barricade, breakdown, sideways and all others joined decepticons
@@random_cocaine4667 ,
@@random_cocaine4667 so there IS choice for child soldiers on Cybertron
"Gladiators risked their lives for money, love, and free healthcare."
Sounds like joining the American military.
implying the usa gov doesnt abandon its expended human resources
Damn bro, America bad, such a deep comment.
Or when you start comparing flunking students with A students
sounds like our new corporates overlords.
@@EeveesMaster7 America bad, yes. It's very simple & doesn't need to be deep.
Optimus calling himself a prime must have stung really bad since the previous primes were the absolute worst. It would be like re-naming himself Optimus Hitler. To the decepticons 'prime' was a bad, bad word. That's why there was the one scene where one of the two decepticon brothers shouts *I WILL NEVER SERVE A PRIME*
wait how were the primes the same as hitler, bad shit happens in every civilisation but remember megatron also wanted to be called prime and between the to megatron acts way worse than a nazi, hell he tortures a autobot and then infects him with a zombie virus and uses he's corpes as a doomsday weapon to eradicate the autobots.... he's a super nazi
@@damonknight2494 To be fair they made sure the Cast system was law, and basically allowed the life or death gladiatorial matches to keep people quiet even though it was illegal. Some of the primes were just greedy to begin with. The cast system just made lower class bots feel worthless and replaceable. Especially when they die just to make a simple product for the upper class. Prevented exploration of the stars. Had their version of the secret police which also tortured bots, brainwash them, and made themselves above the law. So yeah to lower the cast bot and even Optimus himself before the war in the comics, being called a prime wasn't exactly a name that was respectable. Feared yes, respected no. As for wanting to be called one, yeah no that statement came from Ratchet. which according to the books and comics is wrong so. But the zombie thing yeah no I can't defend that. Especially since that virus comes from unicron blood. (Aka robot devil)
@@jamesstansberry837 who were the primes that fell into corruption? Was it Alpha Trion and Sentinel, or was it just Alpha?
@@T-Trux Both had a part to play in the system, with one setting the laws and the other enforcing them and not caring about life until it's made his problem. But they're even those who funded who sided with Megatron just to profit off the war, look at the transformers Megatron origins comic to know who.
I think it was the best choice, Optimus represents a change, a new Prime who does care about their ppl, a new meaning for the name prime...
And then he became a psychopath too XD
"I now know the true meaning of oppression. And thus, have lost my taste in inflicting it."
The last line of Megatron in Transformers Prime the movie, Predacons Rising.
Insinuating that all those years in arenas wasn't oppression.
@@someguy3276 I've always interpreted that line as him remembering what it's like to be under the foot of tyranny rather than sitting at the throne of it. It helps sell just how much he'd lost his way that he forgot it.
@@selinawalsh9075Why did this almost make me tear up
@@Dementia_Springtrap Aw, thanks!
Once again the phrase remains true. "History is written by the victors, it takes a wise man to learn both sides."
Let’s appreciate that optoms prime is a wise man
@@plaguedr.crowvin3349 Optimus Prime is foolish, but Optoms Prime, he is the robo prophet
@@Breakaway-ic5gj I was going to correct it but now I don’t want to
Lmao 😂
But when i wanna do it with the Nazi's, im an evil person. I just wanna form my own opinions based on both sides views
The cons were just trying to save there planet but when Megatron started stealing primes arms from there graves for power it all went down hill 💀
Megatron: hippity hoppity your prime arm is now my arm
💀💀💀
I would say that Megatron started to go off the rails when he started to do drugs, dark energon wasn't to healthy for his brain module.
"Arms" meaning weapons, or meaning limbs?
@@arx3516 I will go for both, but he didn't really keep that limb for long so...
Just imagine. You're a slave, you make your way all the way to be able to speak to the council
And the council listens and picks a guy who has never seen the suffering and tragedy that's happening. I'd not be surprised if it came over as if the high council picked Orion only because he's no slave.
Megatron wanted to use force
Orion was more humble
megatron was blinded by rage by his experiences so his message was ultimately distorted
They were never going to listen to megatron or orion or destroy the caste system. They just wanted a new puppet.
@@zara-hope5518 they obviously weren't prepared for what came next. Question who would you side with knowing both sides of the story?
@@dreademperor2094 well neather I'd try to get optimus and megatron somewhere far from both teams, use the phychic patch on them with rung to help cornected to, show optimus the real life of low caste then finally create a mind couch, make them put their butts down and have rung talk some sents into megatron about his hurting and fix his and optimus's brotherly bound.
But mostly I'd be telling megatron the dark secrerts of what the council been doing and showing optimus. Look for my theories.
Mehn, I didn't know Transform's story was this deep.
Great video essay.
Same !
I only watched transformers at black and white way
but now I understand how Gray this story is
Yeah they just took the story of so called blacks & made it about robots...
I love how deep the lore is for a franchise designed to sell overpriced meme toys.
Shit, I like to think its a legit business model. I wager the reason Vivziepop is so successful with Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel is because the studio is also selling a lot of merch.
Star Wars, Warhammer, MTG, etc etc...
Basically Warhammer
@@MagikarpMan yeah old warhammer
Meme toys?
So, Decepticons weren't just a bunch of bad guys. They just turned bad when Megatron/D16 got addicted to dark energon
No not necessarily during the war for cybertron both decepticons and autobots where at a stalemate and the decepticons mainly Megatron couldn't stand seeing more die so he ordered his ship to ram threw one of cybertrons moons to take the dark energon but force however autobot air commandeer Starscream was waiting for them when Starscream saw that Megatron could handle the power of dark energon Starscream switched sides during the transformers war for cybertron show it was the same story the decepticons started off as the good guys the war in the show tho was basically over with a decepticon victory but the remaining autobots didn't stand down Megatron was afraid the remaining autobots would one day overthrow the decepticon government so he went searching for the all spark to eliminate the autobots and turn there sparks into mindless slaves with the all spark which is what Megatron did in transformers rise of the dark spark
@@Steve-zc9ht not going to lie, I'd wish rise of the dark spark had better writing because I like the idea of Megatron trying to win the war that doesn't results in trying to kill everyone
@@blueink-2230 same in transformers war for cybertron show tho I guess at first the decepticons won however Megatron become so paranoid with the remaining autobots in hiding that he wanted to use the all spark to reformat them into mindless decepticon slaves
@@Steve-zc9ht honestly I still don't know why Optimums didn't want to accept the truths Megatron offered. Like, was it like the wfc game where where he said leave or die. Or was it like a regular piece treaty?
@@blueink-2230 it's because during this time Megatron lost his mind what Megatron wanted was to enslave cybertron again there was this one line in the show that's vary interesting basically this is what happened
Megatron: "I won't let you take the all spark of cybertron you will kill us all"
Optimus: and I won't let you enslave it again"
That was a vary powerful line in the show there was another line from scorpionock as well he said this.
Scorpionock: "I am the last of my kind we where enslaved and killed by the Quintessons and you Megatron are just like a Quintesson you became the exact thing you are fighting against"
That's a summary of what Scorpionock said to Megatron when he found out Megatron was a gladiator. This is why optimus didn't except his deal Optimus said cybertron needs freedom megatron was gonna uses the all spark to turn every non decepticons including non aligned cybertronians like bumblebee ratchet sound blaster etc into his slaves
Aligned Megatron was and always will be my favorite Transformers character. He is a perfect tragic villain that wanted to do something good, but his upbringing and inner bitterness corrupted him. I feel like if Orion tried to argue that Megatron IS a Prime material to the council and tried to show him better ways than violence then he could turn out to be a GREAT leader. After all other Primes were not exactly great either with Liege Maximo and Prima being Prime (hehe) examples of that. And I think that's what makes this Megatron so interesting to me, that he CAN be as good as Optimus, he just needed to be guided and helped to overcome his rage. While at the end of the day Megatron ended up like he did, I will not stop believing that he by all means could be a Prime.
And that's why Optimus himself hesitated to kill him so many times. He also believed Megatron had the capacity to change.
summary of Minus One:
optimus gets rickrolled by soundwave-
😂😂😂
Someone make this as a video.
It takes one Bot to make a change and an army to hold on to that change- Terminus (extract from Towards Peace-Issue Beyond)
Nice
So what you’re saying is, Optimus prime didn’t know he had privilege, and never was aware of that? Also because of his more comfortable upbringing, he had much less of a host of debilitating mental health issues that would lead to violent anger and rage? Sounds realistic
I feel like Optimus was genuine in his beliefs about Cybertron’s corrupt government, but he was naive in thinking that everyone felt the same way as him. Especially since he was born in a higher class, so he wouldn’t know how the people in the slums feel.
Just like real life no side is the “good” side, it’s complicated and nuanced. I’m surprised that a show I watched when I was younger has such complex lore.
did it though? it seems to me like the re writes happened well after i was younger... but i might be older than you...
@@vidard9863 Really I guess but were they really re-writes? I am new to transformers I got into them in 2017 and then got into them again in 2021 so I wouldn't know. I thought they were always there. The original Descepticon cause and all.
as i recall, and to be fair i wasn't big into them, as a kid the descepticons basically just wanted to rule over everyone, and occasionally eliminate human life, just for not being machines. but they were basically toy advertising during the cold war, so they did occasionally spout some marxist/socialist ideals, but they made it clear they intended to be in charge of the future world and it would not be pleasant for anyone who disagreed with them. meanwhile the auto bots where basically perfect individualists being chased down by space notC (sound it out) decepticons...
that might actually be the difference though. my generation understood that a government that took the power necessary to "make it right" was going to be oppressively authoritarian, any one who wanted a new world order imagines themselves on top, and people who focus on injustices, and not on practical ways to make the future better, would commit greater injustices if they were given the opportunity. so perhaps the seeds may have been there if you squint just right, but it was obvious to elementary students that descepticons where in all ways the bad guys on a collective scale, even if as individuals, who happened to be bad, they had some relatable struggles.
@@vidard9863 I agree with you on your take, alot of people have proven that they are no better than the tyrants who ruled them.
Thanks for explaining it all to me.
can devil may cry and suicide squad fight each other in a crossover game
I love how more recent versions of Decepticons have layers to them. Megatron isn't just evil for the sake of being evil. He was a slave that struggled daily to survive becoming stronger but also filling with anger. I'm glad this was a detail the Netflix series kept in about him. And shows he's not always wrong. Transformers were dying out because of the war so he tried to find a way to end it with the All-Spark. A fucked way but still a way to end the fighting. And Optimus actually makes it worse all but destroying their planet by sending the All-Spark off planet even got the bot he loved killed by doing that. Even having other Autobots call him out calling him a murderer for his actions. Which really hammers home how bad his decision was when you think about it.
Optimus Prime's decisions to send the All Spark away wasn't a bad one. It doesn't matter how justified one thinks they are in the name of justice and equality, trying to be God and force individuals to take on your kind of thinking or brainwashing them doesn't make you the more righteous side. Optimus did not destroy cybertron either it was already on its way to dying and don't ignore the fact that Megatron was already using experiments on Cybertron's core corrupting. The All Spark was going to die if it had remained on Cybertron any longer. The All Spark is a power that created life on the basis that all life is equal, it was the choice of its creations to create sides and divisions. Optimus Prime knew this and sent the All Spark away to not only prevent newly born cybertronians from becoming slaves of the Decepticon cause, but to prevent newborns from enduring the current suffering that was the Great War. Of course there was a cost of sending away the All Spark, new life would no longer be born, energon would become scarce, and cybertron staying alive to behold its inhabitants would no longer be able to. Megatron's cause at the time was justifiable and understandable, but trying to become a God to force innocent soon to be born individuals to think like you without giving them a choice is still wrong. I'm not saying your wrong and I agree, but I don't agree with the newer iterations of Optimus Prime portraying him as some sort of lesser evil just because he made the difficult choice to save future generations. I get its not all black and white, but it's not all gray either.
season 2 of gen1 transformers explains the source of the war, and a lot of the origin of the cybertronians, prime is a ret-con of the original origin story. It also some up again for the Unicron planet eater arc, the bots find pieces of Cybertrons past on worlds that Unicron is about to eat, one one example is in the trash heaps of Junkion the trash planet.
So, I will agree to disagree, because Kumquat is correct with their lore from the Prime series, but be aware that is not the only set of lore, on that subject.
As an Autobot fan, I definitely agree that both sides are flawed. The Autobots have some people that are questionable (Sunder) and the Decepticons have some people that straight-up stray from being the cause that helps people (Starscream). Even the leaders of said causes have their flaws. As was said, the Decepticons started off good but drifted away. Videos like this definitely made me understand that now. Thanks, EK!
Edit: Holy scrap. Over 200 likes! That's surprising! O.O
This exactly what I was thinking.
But there was an episode where Rodimus Prime wanted the Matrix of Leadership removed. He appealed to the council.
Primus himself said "The holder of the Matrix is not infallible". It means that while the highest ideal of the Cybertronian Race are often upheld by the Primes, it does not imply the Primes cannot make mistakes.
Cybertronian History is filled with dark times and culminating in Primes Killing Primes. Also at the time of Orion Pax (Optimus Prime) as a records keeper in the city of Iacon, HE saw the terrible corruption. The "Gladiator games" typical of a degenerate and violent society.
Megatronus being their greatest gladiator. He was a mentor to Pax in his early days. Before Megatronus entered the political field.
Proclaiming an even more violent overthrow of the Old Guard and instituting a sort of "Imperial Order".
Pax wanted a better Cybertron that involved peaceful negotiation and Democracy. When Primus chose Pax to become Optimus Prime, Megatronus became Megatron, leader of the Deceptacon Order and the self proclaimed liberator of Pax Cyberonica.
You see a pattern here? More often than not, dictators are often charming, charismatic, and persuasive. Megatron is all that given what he wants is nothing short of complete rule of the galaxy as it's absolute master. By ANY means necessary. And he has committed genocide on an unprecedented order. Think about it.
Fortunately Unicron makes Megatron ummm "rethink" his strategy.
no star scream has been repeatedly shown to have good intentions but his lack of will to sacrifice people under his command for the rest is repeatedly shown to have disastrous consequences.
and star scream despite his most sincere intentions just ends up doing more harm than good, but instead of being given advice or shown what he did wrong, how he could be better.
he was abused and beaten repeatedly by megatron and by others who were sopose to be his equal in rank and even by those lower in rank to him.
In the comics once Megatron left rulership to Starsream he actually was a very good leader.
I'd put it like this...the further they are from Optimus, the more questionable they are. And I mean that literally, proximity to him seems to soften attitudes without dulling effectiveness. He is the moral fiber of the team. Half his people...Arcee, Bulkhead, Ratchet, Ultra Magnus, and Wheeljack...are pretty much what I would call indescriminant killers. In the sense that they don't have much regard for HOW they kill Cons, or the damage it does. Keep in mind, the Bulkhead I'm referring to is the Pre Prime version, where if stories are true, he seemed every bit as bloodthirsty as Wheeljack
I have the following scenario in mind:
The war starts as in the Aligned continuity, but as the war draggs on, some decepticons begin to see that Megatron has gone mad and try reason with him so as to bring him back on the right track. But being mad, Megatron refuses to listen, which ultimately pushes the doubting decepticons to go their own way with Megatron treating them as traitors and no different from the autobots.
Similarly, as the autobots commit their own share of war crimes, some of them, chief among them Optimus, protest to the high council being morally bankcrupt, one or two high council members included. But the high council accuses these protesters of conspiring with the decepticons and becomes even more oppressive, pushing the protesters to go their own way. This is treated as traison by the high council.
Thus the war has escalated into a four-way conflict. Over time, the breakaway decepticons and the renegade autobots come to an understanding and reconcile, forming a coalition to defeat Megatron and the high council. The renegade autobots frequently strugle with their former ties to the high council with the breakaway decepticons always reminding them that the high council is morally beyond redemption. The breakaway decepticons for their part strugle with the fact that Megatron no longer serves the original decepticon cause with the renegade autobots talking them to their senses.
That happens. Both sides had defections to the opposite side, and those that went off, never to be seen again, and became refugees. Only one went off to still be involved in the war. That one, of course, was Lockdown.
Holy shit i would love this to see as a comic or a movie
"people start finding pleasure in more extreme forms"
*Laughs in Slaanesh*
Xenos???
*Laughs im emperors children*
Xenos? Chaos?
WAAAAAAGGGH
@@Bertobot12 waaaagggghhh? WAAAAGGGGHH!
brothers get the flammers... THE HEAVY FLAMMERS!
@@Bertobot12 zaaag daka shooty amah waaagh
"The Decepticons did not intentionally corrupt primus with dark Energon"
War for cybertron:
Hehehe
To be fair war for cybertron has great characters (especially brawl not being a dumb fuck) shit story. And that thincan ain't my megatron.
So in the recent movies,I.felt like Optimus was leading the autobots into being martyrs giving their lives for humans,getting them masacered by humans and decepticons while the desepticons were trying to preserve their species and establish a home for themselves. They never really deter from the idea of doing what they can to unite together to build a home.
I say that's poor writing from Bay's writters, in G1 and rescuebots the cooperation between humans and autobots help in mutual development.
I think it was Bay's fault. He didn't put to much effort in writing the story.
@@ladyeva9398 Yeah in the original concept he wanted it to be a disaster movie where decepticons/giant robots attacked humanity, and with no autobots at all. So yeah... that turned out great!
Bay is all flash and no substance.
I could correctly but no in the dark of the moon optimus have a redemption arc on it so yeah
I think that, what Ratchet said, was wrong. But I, also, think that, everything he said, was said because it is what he believed or what he was told that happened.
Well Ratchet was one of Optimus’s close friends and had known him for quite some time as they frequently call each other “old friend” throughout the show.
Ratchet however seems to be more ruthless with getting Cybertron back to the way it was when he grew up. He sounds oddly close to boomers in our society today if you truly think of it. As seen also Ratchet was willing to defy Optimus taking the synthetic energon when Optimus said not to, and went on a killing spree, to the point he nearly killed an innocent medical vehicon who simply follows orders the higher. Then to go off on Optimus like he did and continue to defy him till Megatron lays him out and he feels stupid.
Not even mentioning all the times he’s pushed back on Optimus, like destroying the space bridge, or the omega lock; the only time he ever showed a difference in reaction is when Smokescreen saved Optimus with the Forge, and that was after the Deceptions had nearly won the war with picking the bots apart and taking over Earth.
"In war, there are no good guys... just your side and the brothers you fight bleed and die with. In war, the wrong people are dying." -Old Veteran I used to do beer runs and other errands for. It wasn't me being some saint. To me, he was a gold mine of stories that he told so well and he knew that. I did get to know him well enough that it hurt me when he finally found peace, God rest his soul.
I’ve always wondered why decepticons looked like battle ready bots. Now it makes sense. And auto bots mostly average middle to high class citizens such as cars and trucks.
In the original story the quintessons created all robots on Cybertron as slaves, they became sentient through finding suffering and joy they experienced in their lives. The next phase was rebellion against their slave Masters and drive them off the planet. The proto deceptions we're built to be heavy duty slaves, warriors and gladiators. The autobot ancestors were built also as slaves but not weaponized and much less battled ready. The society blended when they achieved their freedom and like any other many of the elite became corrupt. That is when the problem started things were not perfect but peaceful, feeling he could do better himself the newest model military leader wages war on the entirety of his society out of power hungry greed this was Megatron. The factions as we know them arose completely after that attack. I understand trying to add depth to something but not to the point of ruining it. It's disturbing and dumb how people have to reverse everything now and worship evil as good while demonizing the good. There's a reason villains are villains, they are either innately evil, took their cause way too far or simply grew drunk on power. This is just dumb
In g1 both autobot and decepticon factions were created as Quintesson slaves. The former for labor the latter as soldiers. They eventually formed free will and rebelled.
@@joshsass3067 pretty sure you missed the whole point of the video
Jets and tanks and helicopter are pretty high class if you ask me.
I think Megatron had a point, but I believe that when he gained some power, he had a taste for it. Freedom and authority he never once had in his entire life, and it came to him in tsunami’s. So he relished it, and slowly began turning into a Megalomaniac. Also I have a theory that the reason why Megatron is one of the only ones to be able to handle dark energon is because, like how Primes are guardians of cybertronians (or at least supposed to be), that are chosen by Primus. Megatron could have been Unicron’s own chosen one, but an agent of conquest rather than a guardian. Which could have secretly influenced Megatron’s personality bit by bit, like a cancer.
You mean to say Galvatron could've existed much sooner than Predacons Rising?
@@BlooMonkiMan pretty much
YAY! I’m honestly surprised that hasbro actually let you upload this
I had to edit it a few times to spite them and get away with it
@@emperorkumquat I'm so glad u got to post it! :D
Optimus' idea of peaceful change was naive imo, governments DO NOT like change; they exist to protect the status quo. The bigger issue wasn't one of politics anyway, but of culture. Any meager change Optimus would've been able to enact would've been met with resistance and the everyday bot on the street was never going to let go of their prejudices or privilege. War was inevitable. *Especially* during scarcity.
Some disturbing parallels with reality in their story.
Are you sure that revolution would always lead to good change? No Reign of Terror? Napoleon's rule as the dictator? Couldn't it be that the new rule disappoints its followers and their expectations? Can't the earlier saviour be an opressor and tyrant to some of his own people? Are you sure that a peaceful change isn't possible? Like the Non-Cooperation movements by M.K. Gandhi? I'll admit that I'm not certain which option would be better. Maybe the answer is not binary as Yes or No. All I wanted was to show you a different angle.
Doesn’t this remind of a certain civil rights movement in the 60’s
@@kumargaurav9212 Ghandi only got rid of a Colonial regime. But the regime in India is very much corrupt and classist. So that went no where. And King ended segregation on paper. But the rights of people of color are still just performative crap. We still have inequality between the ethnic groups and races in America. Only now it’s done under the table. That isn’t progress. Revolution is the only thing that really changes things.
Edit
Also Bonaparte was a Military Coup plotter not a Revolutionary. The original French Revolution was led by the Jacobins and other insurgent groups.
@@kumargaurav9212 hhahha. You think Ghandi's polices where implemented peacefully?! You are probably an American so let me give you an example from your own history; Civil Rights movemeny suceeded not because Martin Luther's non violent tendencies but because they assasinated one of the best people US produced and EVERY CITY STARTED RIOTING. So yes sometimes violence is the answer. And imagine a society that had this caste system , classcism and bigotry for hundreds of thousands of years.
@@berilsevvalbekret772 Okay so first off, I never said peaceful means is THE WAY OF CHANGE. I presented a different angle to be considered. As said I in the reply itself, I'm not sure which way is right. My intention was to present a different angle. Secondly, it's not funny dude that you say haha. But I do find it funny that you think that I am probably an American but make no mention (maybe cause you don't know) that "Gaurav" is a Hindi word. And then go on telling me "my own history"(American History in your view is my history). You know you can keep your view without being arrogant or rude.
I would like to argue that it WAS spiteful for Megatron to cut ties with Orion on a personal level. He had an opportunity. Yes, he was not himself named the next prime, but his friend, who looked up to him, was. He could have worked closely with Optimus and make his reforms a reality using Optimus's peaceful methods. Instead, he chose to cut ties because it was not him named a prime.
I agree with this, and it actually makes me wonder if Megatron was really ever Orion's friend, or if just like everything else in Megatron's life, another zero sum game he was trying to win and saw Orion as an opportunity because of his position in society to do so, maybe without even realizing it.
Force is sometimes necessary peaceful talks dont always work.
He never had ties to the council period. And this was just more perfromative BS to pretend to care. They probably didn’t even care about Optimus either. They just needed someone soft and suave to do their bidding while pretending to care for the people.
Megatron thought Orion wanted the council o remain in power
@@ap6806 But Orion didn't mean to steal Megatron's thunder.
A massive problem I had with the show was how little lore we were given. LIKE, WHO WERE THESE GUYS BACK OM CYBERTRON? And what WAS life on CYBERTRON like? This video was really informative, thank you!
I love how the Decepticons have evolved from being the typical 80’s villain monolith, to being a three-dimensional and colorful faction that holds a cautionary tale at its center. IDW1 and TFP handled this especially nicely, with the Decepticons forming from sympathetic and idyllic dreams, before being corrupted into the relentless warmongerers they are. It reflects the evolution of the era around TF, from the Us vs. Them of the 80’s to the questioning of that mentality of today.
The Autobots and Decepticons in TFP/IDW are equally morally gray, which makes it so much more realistic and engaging, because it asks who the good guys truly are.
If there are any, or if there is just a faction that has done bad, and a faction that has done worse.
TF is like a cultural analysis of the greater zeitgeist America/the world is in. It’s one of the reasons why I love it so much
Video essay worthy!
Now more than ever there is More to g the them than Meets the Eye
In TFP. It was a little more obvious who we're the villains and who we wanted to root for. While in IDW it wasn't so clean-cut, it showed that both sides were morally gray.
TBF, the original toon had hues of this too. But were more swapped.
In G1, Autobots were the blue collar workers, factories, dock workers, etc.
The Decepticons were military, the DoD scientists, scout explorers(nasa), etc. But often were getting decommissioned as that, since a military was no longer truly needed with the quints gone. A full loss of purpose, of fates denied. Much more to it than that, but it's scattered and often retcons itself throughout pending on the perspective we're hearing the tale from & when.
Where decepticons originally tried to take over because of feeling treated less than equal fear of where they go next, while they provided everything of security, then declared martial law. Which created the decepticon rebellion as they struck away from the government as a new self-contained group and blitzed the factories and cities for resources to take control and to topple the towers of privileged vanity like crystal city, which pushed the autobots, the mostly blue collar workers into having to stop them, while the privileged classes looked on and watched the two sides.
Granted all of that was after the initial autobot rebellion which is what TFP draws heavily from. The Quintesson's enslaving cybertron and turning it into a manufacturing world to sell the Cybertronians as marketed goods into slavery. Which also dives even more into Guardian Robots, and the plight of Omega Supreme who has been around through it all from the first rebellion against the Quints, to the decepticon rebellion, and is now on earth wanting only peace and wants nothing to do with the war.
The difference with TFP, is that it removed the element of the blue collar worker from the autobots, and centered the clash of ideals on privilege, and the corruption of power. Whereas initially in G1, that's still relatively true, but the emphasis of the class system was different. Where before it was more union workers against the military while the privileged hid away and let them fight. This is something I kind of miss about original Orion Pax. This emphasis of the intellectual turned leader feels more forced, as opposed to the dock manager turned union leader turned hero that had to stand up for the workers being hurt by this military strikes, that even injured him and made him into Optimus. Which the G1 Optimus is why he became a pillar of Morals. The blue collar work, transformed by an accident into a rallying leader. Which draws heavy parallels to union workers and union safety regulations/worker safety.
There's also some interesting comparisons here to the movies, you see it most heavily in TLK, where Sqweeks & Izzie are having to parts reap, same as the autobots at the junk yard. Where now they are more feeling what the Decepticons of TFP had endured. There's a lot of depth to those bits, that were glossed over fast because of feelings of audiences wanting more digestable simplicity and distraction humor instead of full depth of their plights. So we only get Izzie's bits of her cybertronian family in really sparse quick nibbles instead of the full weight of it.
These things have echoed throughout the brand as a whole from the start in every era, but in different ways and different influences for where they focus. But it's easier to say the basics of Auotbots good, decepticons bad. And call it a day. When in reality, it is more complex across the eras, and many often reflect the feelings of the era it was written in.
That's because after the decline in the 90's the the Transformers franchise was left with just a small but dedicated fanbase, and in order to keep the fans the franchise had to grow up with them, implementing more mature themes to appease an audience now made by teens and young adults. Wich is the same thing that happened to mecha anime.
The original cartoon had this too, Octane, Blitzwing, even Starscream with his friendship with SkyFire.
Cyclonus also was honorable.
16:32 This really brings context to that one scene in TFP when Optimus has amnesia, and shows that Megatron was never actually bullshitting.
*ORION:* Why are we called "Decepticons?
*MEGATRON:* Another Autobot scare tactic. The name was made to Demonise us. Instead, we wear it as a badge of honour. For if peaking the truth is deception, then we are gladly guilty.
I always figured Ratchet was a little castist (is that the word?) when you pointed out that eye colour in Transformers Prime wasn't based on morality.
Edit: *classist
I figure classist would work in this case.
@@EtchaSketch444 Ah, thank you.
Yeah i mean he avoided to talk about the system to miko, jack the the rest of them
You've got to remember, Ratchet was simplifying the story for literal children, whom he doesn't entirely respect the intelligence of, to understand deep lore about a centuries-old alien civilization.
He might have understood the inequalities of Cybertron well, but felt no need to explain them in full to kids who are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of his age.
Transformer's prime had the best graphics I've ever seen
For us all
Eh they dated at points
But the show is good still
"Anyways check out this videos sponsor, the decepticons!"
*All Hail Lord Megatron! Long live the Decepticons! DEATH to Autobots!*
Is the truth hitting you too hard, Autobot punk !!!!
@@TheRisingStorm316 Amen to that brother Long live the Decepticon Cause.
Decepticons punk
"Decepticon shadow bucket heads."
I’ve always liked the deception cause more than the autobots. After some reading, and watching transformers prime, I couldn’t help but think that the autobots were questionable at best.
Just like the Jedi.
The Autobots saved humanity and the Earth as a whole, from genocide at the hands of the Decepticons.
@@jeff3221 genocide at the hands of *UNICRON*
@@jeff3221 I agree that the Decepticons are evil by the time of the show, but when you consider their origin, you see that the conflict has a lot more nuance than the show would have you believe.
The autobots have violent killers like dinobots, wreckers, and corrupted autobots.
I always found the decepticons and autobots to be such an incredibly interesting set of factions. And also, Megatron had been corrupted from the long war, as far as I can see he was corrupted before dark energon and simply went to it as a last result. Megron is a surprisingly tragic character who was corrupted by watching the person he thought he could trust not only be appointed as a prime instead of him but then watched this same person create a faction to oppose him made of those who had oppressed him and many others. It's nice to see at the end of transformers prime that he has a change back to who he was after being subjugated by Unicron like had back before he started his uprising and saw that it was pointless to continue the war considering that, by all accounts, he actually accomplished his goal
It's a pity how the Decepticons fell over the simple march of time, their old selves slaves and gladiators likely wouldn't even recognize themselves as they are now, willing to condemn entire other worlds that had no part in their war to death for their own goals.
Revolutions are often enough absorbed into the system, nowadays the French Revoltionists faction doesn't exist but it's legacy on world history is Immense
And also Megatron being their leader
An interesting thought: when people, or in this case, robots, revolt, it often results in a period of anarchy, which then turns into a form of government.
Oliver Cromwell’s rule in England is a great example of this in human history. Basically, the English people were tired of having a king, so they revolted and got a dictator…
So I would say that neither side is in the right. Both of them did their wrongs. In the end, thankfully it’s sci fi.
@@TheModdersDen which is heavily influenced by real life🤣
@@zebimicio5204 LOL. So much of every form of entertainment is influenced by real life, past or present.
True, but Cromwell was really good as far as I remember, I think people automatically connect dictator with evil. Oliver for example was a dictator in title and in practice, vut he was a good and respected leader besides his disagreements with the parliament. And then his son fucked it up.
@@radekvaverka8921 I think the real problem with dictators isn’t so much that they’re all destined to be bad leaders, but that the best aspects of their rule are doomed to die with them.
I think the reson why megatron befriended and metored orion aka optimus because orion was an upper class yet he was eager to meet megatron and hear out of his case and become friends. The slave class was starved for love and care to live as a normal so megatron saw orion as a true friend much like soundwave who was a cpuncill but choose to live amoung the poor and sweared a silence oath.
The "13th Prime" was also known as "The Nameless/The Forgotten Prime", and the original primes were basically akin to the saints from biblical history, especially after you think look into things, the Primus record books had stricken the name of the thirteenth from all records, effectively making them a figment of cybertronian history, there was more than likely a thirteenth biblical saint, whose name was stricken from the record.(⌐■-■)
the number twelve for the apostles was deliberate even at the time as it was reference to the twelve tribes.
and that number was considered sacred enough by ancient Israel such that even early on when one tribe became full of wickedness to the point of being cast out and the tribe name removed, another was divided into two and become the new twelfth
and for the apostles, likewise after Judas' betrayal, he was cast out and a new twelfth selected.
to have 13, would be to count the apostles AND the messiah Yehoshua
@@idminister The 12 guys that followed Jesus around were the DISCIPLES, not the APOSTLES.
perhaps it was stricken because this one was not exactly a saint and had different views for Cybertron
13 is also a Freemason number.
@@RC51Legend the two words can literally be used interchangeably.
I heard this saying before but I can't remember where
"One man's freedom fighters is another man's terrorist."
It's all about perspective
@@Guruguru-nl8bs yep
Exactly how the US sees the Taliban.
@@MrMJmusicLover I mean, in that case the Taliban I'd argue is the one being oppressive. Their religion gives the an excuse to oppress their women, which is unfair. The war on terror only began because they hijacked a plane and threw it at important buildings. But yeah, perhaps we need to live them alone and have the human rights slowly reappear via human rights movements, if they aren't shot on sight...
@@burnttoast.2017 Wait... Did you forget about 9/11 being payback against Bush sr. and America for the Gulf War?
I think it would be a very cool “What If?” spin-off if, say, Megatron was bit more tempered in his speech and had Orion Pax/Alpha Trion supporting him, allowing the Council to name him as Prime.
I could see him becoming a Napoleon like figure, who perhaps does reform and rejuvenate Cybertron, but also turns it into an inter-galactic empire that starts expanding rapidly, forcing them into conflict with the rest of the galaxy
Megatronus Prime the Second, the bot behind the Second Golden Age?
I like it...
@@BlooMonkiManThat one has to be the greatest title for a Prime, it's very sad this could never be real :(
@@ivanpavelmartinezmedina8426 Thanks. I chose "Megatronus Prime II" because we already had a Megatronus Prime and there's the whole rule with primes having names that end with "us" like, Optimus, Solus, Rodimus, Megatronus, Micronus, Amalgamous... Y'know how it is.
Megatron prime
God can someone do a fanart of Megatron as a prime? That would go hard Af
I'd like to "defend" a couple of autobots:
Ratchet- his retelling of the Megatron-Orion audience with the council is flawed HOWEVER, being that Ratchet was NOT a councilman (councilbot?) he couldn't be there.
Arcee- I love that two-wheeler so, yeah, I'm pretty biased but we don't know if she hated 'cons that much before Tailgate's death... as for afterwards... I think I'll forgive her for having PTSD fueled hate for being tortured and seeing her partner being tortured and killed in front of her.
As far as the unnecessary cruelty we see in the cartoon (on both sides) I'll excuse both 'cons and 'bots...
If human soldiers can come back completely changed after a few years of war I guess that millions of years of war can do much worse.
Also, I love how, since you mentioned IDW, the IDW comics present us with a lot of autobots "baddies" (let's go with that, the whole spectrum of how evil the various deranget 'bots would take ages to describe.)
That’s long
@@1_D_K_W_N eh, I've done worse...
Yes on the Arcee bit. She along with B and a few others have suffered tremendously from the Decepticons. Its no wonder they are full of so much hate.
Technically, Tailgate's Death is all Arachnid, and she can't really be counted as a True Decepticon since she left them and came crawling back. Plus, no one really liked her. Even Megatron didn't really want to keep her, but she proven to be still useful...until she killed Breakdown. Probably should not have let her back in.
@@Elizatoria Technically, Airachnid deserted AFTER Tailgate's death.
I didn't like how you used Optimus interrogation of Soundwave as if he WANTED to do so. He treated Soundwave fairly during the whole time. Optimus is the pure in goodness but the vast majority of the autobots are what you described.
Totaly agree!
Soundwave was Soundwave being Soundwave and was slowly pissing off Optimus
You will not have time to read the text chunks, so I recommend pausing the video when you like
I love your stuff man! Thank you for making the TF fandom a great place!
Hey Kumquat, I've been wondering.
I know you usually only review newer shows, but I wanted to ask you if you could review some of the older shows, since you seem to be branching out to things like IDW.
Im specifically interested in your thoughts on TFA, since Prime seems to take a lot of inspiration from that show.
Hey I just had a thought. In this video you said that the lower castes made up most Decepticons while higher castes made up most of the Autobots. you also said the pollution in slave cities was so bad that bot's eyes would be damaged. What if most desepticons eyes are red due to amage done by pollution. and autobots would say blue because they werent in those cities. and other decepticons like Starscream who wasntalways in the slums probably had his optics damaged during the war when the decepticon headquarters was in th middle of Kaon. There may besome holes in this theory but it was just a quick thought that I had and i think it makes sense in a lot of ways.
Seen his airy maven teeth
@@matthewcisneros7245 It’s interesting, but the Aligned Continuity started giving red and blue eyes to whatever faction, so I like to think it’s natural Cybertronian diversity
There is a fanfic called words unspoken where soundwave after TFP become the new leader of the decepticons and restore decepticon's cause to its originality.
But wasn't he trapped in the shadow realm in S3 ep13?
@@rookiemistakes3258 it is set post beast hunters
Is it one AO3 or somewhere else? i need to read that
@@armoroftruth3166 so he got back out?
@@rookiemistakes3258 yes
Even as a kid, i ALWAYS had a doubt when i heard this ONE side is COMPLETELY evil and must be stopped. Conquerors are the "winners" and rewrite history as such. Great Transformers content and breakdown. SUBBED
It's a cartoon series meant to sell toys. It was that simple because it had no grand aspirations for a deep story with a mixture of motivations.
The decepticons aren't evil because of Revisionism. They are sympathetic now because of retconning.
Megatron first in Cybertron´s Golden age: Abolish the opression!, Change the system, do the wrong thing for good reasons
Megatron after the war in Earth: Purple DrUgS, murder, zombies and madness
I guess in every good is a bit of evil, and every evil a bit of good, so the Decepticons wanted a change but Megatron took a bad path, and then the Autobots just try to stop it because it really would not fix a scrap, all the mass murder, the conquers, Unicron
You can die a hero or you can live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
@@williamdunhan341 Megatron took this personally
Road to hell is paved with good intentions
His original points were good but then he last his mind and became oppressive as hell
So just like most communist revolution, they become the very thing that they hated 😂, this is why I will always view megatron as the bad guy and Optimus as the good guy, I rather not go for the side that’s going to basically become authoritarian because they got a taste of power like most communist
You make too much sense xD
Specially when Megatron is enraged by Orion becoming Optimus Prime.
I mean, Megatron is fighting to overthrow the system that gives power to the casts of Cybertron. The rebirth of Orion as Optimus is not a middleground, it's a reinforcement of the cast system. A slap in the face of Megatron's cause.
I saw it this way as well, I think Orion Pax was Megatron's friend, Optimus Prime however, was the living embodiment of the very idea that an individual has the right to be over other individuals, and all others are "lesser", which is exactly how Megatron and the other Decepticons ended up where they were. How can there truly be equality or even freedom when that same mind set is still there?
@@ap6806 But the Optimus prime led government was never even allowed to pan out, it's complete speculation that he would have kept the caste system.
@@kylehankins5988Indeed, and there were clear signs that Optimus had every intention to fulfill Megatron’s dream. Albeit in a peaceful and orderly manner, which would have taken a lot more time than with violent means, which was unacceptable for Megatron and thus, civil war.
Ofc, Megatron was the rebel leader and want's to overthrow the government. He also didn't trust the "establishment" or the Autobots, which is pretty understandable. This doesn't make him evil.
But he demanded the crown for himself. This is the part where he "began to show his true colors". This is where he showed, he would be just the next dictator. Also, Megatrons goals were irreconcilable to begin with, justice and revenge don't go together. When he justified the actions of the Decepticons, he already had made his choice. Justice is about closure, revenge is about cycles. The video explains this cycle very well.
Of course that would not have been the case that the same time you realize if this is the case Of him doing something that isn't good then that means It wants to turn back on the Autobots It's autobot's piece and decepticons didn't even understand that that's why keeps happening to every lost On planet cybertron.👨👩👧👦
Should've posted this on jan 6 lmfao
"Justice is about closure, revenge is about cycles" - Some guy on the internet 2021
Justice is whatever the one in power wants it to be.
Megatron is a tragic character because I feel like he REALLY wanted to do something good and help his people, but he didn't know any other way than violence because that's what he knew all his life. If only Orion told that council that he beliefs Megatron has the potential to be a Prime and helped him find a better way, help him understand, I feel like it would turn out better.
Good vid, also,
Is it possible to interpret "Decepticons" as "Anti-deception"? (like 'the autobots are deceiving us we fight for truth thus we are decepticons')
because u know, "cons" could means "anti" or "against" iirc.
It always felt weird that they just accept an "Evil name" and say it all the times.
Cool idea!!
5⁵⁶
@@kushkungvivo744 what does this number mean? :o
@@emperorkumquat It could also fit as an implant Cybertronians could recieve to make them living lie detectors, and thus Megatron decided to implant all of his followers with them, or the Decepticons are just a military caste that are born with the lie detection capabilities, and so the original Decepticons gave themselves the name of "Decepticon" because it fit and sounded cool.
Megatron: "I bring a commandment from Primus himself".
Sentinel Prime: "And just what exactly is this commandment"?
Megatron: "Thus sayeth the Lord and Creator of Cybertron. LET MY PEOPLE GO"!!!!!!!!
Basically the show is the auto bot propaganda watch the books are more of the raw history…interesting stuff
😂
So Megatron never went high with the bois
Almost every version of the Transformers backstory I've come across has shown that there were legit problems on Cybertron that would inevitably lead to rebellion of some sort. But every time, the rebels, the Decepticons, always wind up going too far and becoming worse than what they hoped to overthrow. Just once I'd like a show where the two sides, Bots and Cons, are even in terms of their morality and what they fight for. Really make the audience think hard about who is in the right 😊
Is the cause of the Autobots even defendable?
This is a very popular - and extremely toxic - story trope in Hollywood. The idea that the oppressed, once they gain power, will be "worse than those they overthrew." You see it constantly from epic movies to 20-minute cartoons about bullying or something. And it's always the same thing; the story ends up always with the same message, 'thing were better when the oppressed were being oppressed." it encourages the viewer to sympathize and identify with the oppressors, while pretending to have a moral message of "moderation" - basically, oppression against others is good, so long as you don't do it to the point of revolt. Violence against others is acceptable, so long as you've got status, etc.
@OHGAS Is it really?
@@TheRusty well it's rooted in human history. There are different types of oppression beyond the obvious that all could agree is oppression, most oppression is based on the points of view of the opressed. Liberation of one faction means the oppression of the other.
Nice
I always thought that both factions agreed on revolution however the autobots were fighting for a free society and the decepticons were trying to make a Totalitary government that benefited their cause. Thanks for clearing that up.
you were right the first time, he's talking about the origins of the decepticons.... as he said they are just disgusting evil tyrents now, their message has been currupted by greed and power lust
@@damonknight2494 aka most revolutions
@@theironcross2933 some weren';t even good form the start
@@Steven9567The council was never good, the autobots watch lower cast for entertainment, so yeah, not very goodie
Violence becomes the ultimate language because it is easy to ignore words. It is hard to ignore pain that hits close to home
Transformers Animated is very interesting for the lore, and we see an interesting dynamic where the Decepticons are essentially a rebel guerilla force who are resisting the forces of the Primes.
Well let's see if I agree with this
Beginning - No
I'll edit at the end
Edit: I do think there's a lot to this video. I don't think "The Decepticons were RIGHT!?" was the most accurate but I understand the reason behind it. To gather more attention. I don't know anyone else in the world like this but I'm able to understand Optimus and Megatron very well because they are both parts of me. One is the ideal, Optimus Prime. The other is something that SEEMS much more grounded in the depths of humanity, Megatron.
I don't think that war is the right way to change. I do see it as easier but much less stable in nature. But I do acknowledge the fact that if they were to be a violent revolution in a corrupt country I would support it. I don't blame either side and if a war were to ever break out none of you deserve any hate and all deserve the safety of other
Sounds like backstory of all alien superheroes origins
At the end of the day, both sides loose almost everything, so no matter who you blame or who was right or wrong, both sides are loosing more of what little they have left
If the bombings only hit middle-class commoners and not the high-ranking officials themselves, they only reduce the amount of potential supporters on the other side